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Resistance
See other Resistance Articles

Title: URGENT Save on-line cigarettes, Call your Senator Now
Source: CD2U
URL Source: http://www.cd2u.org/email.html
Published: Nov 4, 2009
Author: CD2U
Post Date: 2009-11-04 12:17:04 by palo verde
Keywords: None
Views: 912
Comments: 120

By making all cigarettes nonmailable, the Senate is ensuring you will no longer be able to purchase these products by mail-order, telephone order, or over the Internet because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers, will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you.

*** URGENT - PLEASE CALL BEFORE THURSDAY ***

*** The US Senate committee will be voting this week ***

Your Senators will be voting shortly to make ALL TOBACCO PRODUCTS NON-MAILABLE!!!

WE NEED YOUR HELP TO TELL YOUR SENATORS NOT TO PASS THIS BILL !!!

(This has ALREADY BEEN PASSED in the House of Representatives !!!)

Please contact BOTH your Senators by phone, email, or regular mail.
(We have provided all of their contact information below.)

(You do NOT have to identify yourself as a smoker.)

HOW TO CONTACT YOUR SENATORS:

TELEPHONE: You can directly dial your Senators office using the number shown for them below, or you can dial 1-800-828-0498 (this is a toll-free number) to be connected with a Capitol Switchboard Operator. Simply ask the Operator to connect you with your Senators Office.

Time is crucial at this point, so a phone call is by far the best choice for contacting your Senators.

EMAIL: Simply go to each of your two Senators websites shown above and find the Senators contact form. Fill in the required information, type your message and click the "Send" button.

REGULAR MAIL: Send a letter to your Senator at their LOCAL offices nearest you. You can find the addresses for local offices on the Senators' websites or by looking in your telephone book's government section. It is important that you send your letter to your Senators' local office since mail often takes months to reach a Senator's Washington, DC office due to increased security at the Capitol.

EVERY TELEPHONE CALL, EMAIL AND LETTER MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

YOUR SENATORS NEED TO HEAR FROM YOU ON THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE!

THE SITUATION: Right now there is legislation pending in the United States Senate - the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009 ("PACT Act") (S.1147) which contains, among other bad ideas, a provision to make ALL cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products nonmailable. This legislation has already been passed by the House of Representatives and is currently in a Senate Committee that could send it to the Senate floor at any time for a vote!

WHAT THIS MEANS TO YOU: By making all cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products nonmailable, the Senate is ensuring you will no longer be able to purchase these products by mail-order, telephone order, or over the Internet because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers, will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you. Taking away your options means forcing you back to buying over-priced tobacco products from your local retailer once again.

WHY WE NEED YOUR HELP: Native American cigarette and tobacco sellers are committed to doing everything we can to stop the PACT Act, but we need your help. Your Senators work for you and as their constituents, it is your voice and your vote that counts!

WHAT YOU CAN DO: Contact your Senators and tell them not to pass the PACT Act. Your Senators should be protecting your interests, but it is up to you to let them know what you think about the PACT Act. There are three easy ways to contact your Senators - by telephone, email, or regular mail - all of which are explained below. Every state has two Senators - please remember to contact BOTH Senators for your state. At this point time is crucial, so a phone call is by far the best means to use.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOUR OPINION: As an American Citizen, it is your right to let your Senators know how you feel about any action Congress takes. You elected your Senators to represent you and they can only do this if you tell them what you want. When you contact your Senator you do not need to identify yourself as a smoker or as someone who purchases cigarettes and/or smokeless tobacco products by mail-order, telephone-order, and/or the Internet. You only need to identify yourself as a resident of the state they represent.

SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THE PACT ACT TO DISCUSS WITH YOUR SENATORS:

THE POSTAL SERVICE: The price of stamps is being raised practically every year. The PACT Act will take an entire class of legal, non-hazardous goods and make them nonmailable. What this means is a huge loss of business (potentially hundreds of millions of dollars) for the Postal Service. Will they continue to raise the price of stamps and other mail services to compensate for their lost income? The United States Postal Service is already suffering a fiscal crisis due to the downturn in the economy. If the PACT Act is passed and millions of dollars of revenue are taken away, there could be serious consequences for consumers, including reducing the number of delivery days from 6 per week down to 5 or perhaps only 4 days per week.

COST: When the PACT Act of 2003 (S.1177) passed the Senate, the Congressional Budget Office prepared a Cost Estimate for the Bill. The Congressional Budget Office estimated that the PACT Act of 2003 would cost about $140 MILLION over the 2004-2008 period to enforce. $140 Million over four years - and that estimate is already six years old. How much will the PACT Act of 2009 cost to enforce? Isn't there a better way to spend our tax dollars?

IMPORTANT THINGS TO REMEMBER WHEN COMMUNICATING WITH YOUR SENATORS:

1. Tell your Senators that you are one of their constituents and provide an address so they know where in the state you are from. Since anyone can contact a Senator, it is important that you let your Senators know that you live and vote in their home state. Because the Senators receive so much mail, mail from their constituents always takes priority.

2. Make it clear to your Senators that you DO NOT want them to pass the PACT Act of 2009 (S.1147). Let your Senators know that if they don't support you - you won't support them.

3. This bill presents undue hardship to many smokers who are older, and shut-in with limited mobility. It is unfair to prevent them from ordering tobacco products through home delivery.

4. This bill represents discriminatory pricing as the majority of smokers are lower-income, many on a fixed income. It is discriminatory to force them to pay higher prices.

5. This bill represents discriminatory taxation as smokers were forced to pay an additional increase of more than $7 a carton in new federal taxes earlier this year.

6. This bill represents unlawful double-taxation as Internet and mail-order retailers are already collecting and paying federal and state excise taxes in the state where the tobacco is purchased.

7. This bill represents discriminatory restriction of trade towards smokers as all other lawful products can be purchased through the mail-order and through the Internet. Let your Senators know that if they don't support you - you won't support them.

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#1. To: All (#0)

CONTACT YOUR UNITED STATES SENATORS

State

Senator

Phone

Website

Alaska

Lisa Murkowski

202-224-6665

http://murkowski.senate.gov/

Alaska

Mark Begich

202-224-3004

http://begich.senate.gov

Alabama

Richard Shelby

202-224-5744

http://shelby.senate.gov/

Alabama

Jeff Sessions

202-224-4124

http://sessions.senate.gov/

Arkansas

Blanche Lincoln

202-224-4843

http://lincoln.senate.gov/

Arkansas

Mark Pryor

202-224-2353

http://pryor.senate.gov/

Arizona

John McCain

202-224-2235

http://mccain.senate.gov/

Arizona

Jon Kyl

202-224-4521

http://kyl.senate.gov/

California

Dianne Feinstein

202-224-3841

http://feinstein.senate.gov/

California

Barbara Boxer

202-224-3553

http://boxer.senate.gov/

Colorado

Mark Udall

202-224-5941

http://markudall.senate.gov

Colorado

Michael Bennet

202-224-5852

http://bennet.senate.gov/

Connecticut

Christopher Dodd

202-224-2823

http://dodd.senate.gov/

Connecticut

Joseph Lieberman

202-224-4041

http://lieberman.senate.gov/

Delaware

Thomas Carper

202-224-2441

http://carper.senate.gov/

Delaware

Ted Kaufman

202-224-5042

http://kaufman.senate.gov/

Florida

Bill Nelson

202-224-5274

http://billnelson.senate.gov/

Florida

Mel Martinez

202-224-3041

http://martinez.senate.gov/

Georgia

Saxby Chambliss

202-224-3521

http://chambliss.senate.gov/

Georgia

Johnny Isakson

202-224-3643

http://isakson.senate.gov/

Hawaii

Daniel Inouye

202-224-3934

http://inouye.senate.gov/

Hawaii

Daniel Akaka

202-224-6361

http://akaka.senate.gov/

Iowa

Charles Grassley

202-224-3744

http://grassley.senate.gov/

Iowa

Tom Harkin

202-224-3254

http://harkin.senate.gov/

Idaho

Mike Crapo

202-224-6142

http://crapo.senate.gov/

Idaho

Jim Risch

202-224-2752

http://risch.senate.gov/

Illinois

Richard Durbin

202-224-2152

http://durbin.senate.gov/

Illinois

Roland Burris

202-224-2854

http://burris.senate.gov/

Indiana

Richard Lugar

202-224-4814

http://lugar.senate.gov/

Indiana

Evan Bayh

202-224-5623

http://bayh.senate.gov/

Kansas

Sam Brownback

202-224-6521

http://brownback.senate.gov/

Kansas

Pat Roberts

202-224-4774

http://roberts.senate.gov/

Kentucky

Mitch McConnell

202-224-2541

http://mcconnell.senate.gov/

Kentucky

Jim Bunning

202-224-4343

http://bunning.senate.gov/

Louisiana

Mary Landrieu

202-224-5824

http://landrieu.senate.gov/

Louisiana

David Vitter

202-224-4623

http://vitter.senate.gov/

Massachusetts

Edward Kennedy

202-224-4543

http://kennedy.senate.gov/

Massachusetts

John Kerry

202-224-2742

http://kerry.senate.gov/

Maryland

Barbara Mikulski

202-224-4654

http://mikulski.senate.gov/

Maryland

Benjamin Cardin

202-224-4524

http://cardin.senate.gov/

Maine

Olympia Snowe

202-224-5344

http://snowe.senate.gov/

Maine

Susan Collins

202-224-2523

http://collins.senate.gov/

Michigan

Carl Levin

202-224-6221

http://levin.senate.gov/

Michigan

Debbie Stabenow

202-224-4822

http://stabenow.senate.gov/

Minnesota

Amy Klobuchar

202-224-3244

http://klobuchar.senate.gov/

Missouri

Kit Bond

202-224-5721

http://bond.senate.gov/

Missouri

Claire McCaskill

202-224-6154

http://mccaskill.senate.gov/

Mississippi

Thad Cochran

202-224-5054

http://cochran.senate.gov/

Mississippi

Roger Wicker

202-224-6253

http://wicker.senate.gov/

Montana

Max Baucus

202-224-2651

http://baucus.senate.gov/

Montana

Jon Tester

202-224-2644

http://tester.senate.gov/

North Carolina

Richard Burr

202-224-3154

http://burr.senate.gov/

North Carolina

Kay Hagan

202-224-6342

http://hagan.senate.gov/

North Dakota

Kent Conrad

202-224-2043

http://conrad.senate.gov/

North Dakota

Byron Dorgan

202-224-2551

http://dorgan.senate.gov/

Nebraska

Ben Nelson

202-224-6551

http://bennelson.senate.gov/

Nebraska

Mike Johanns

202-224-4224

http://johanns.senate.gov/

New Hampshire

Judd Gregg

202-224-3324

http://gregg.senate.gov/

New Hampshire

Jeanne Shaheen

202-224-2841

http://shaheen.senate.gov/

New Jersey

Frank Lautenberg

202-224-3224

http://lautenberg.senate.gov/

New Jersey

Robert Menendez

202-224-4744

http://menendez.senate.gov/

New Mexico

Jeff Bingaman

202-224-5521

http://bingaman.senate.gov/

New Mexico

Tom Udall

202-224-6621

http://tomudall.senate.gov/

Nevada

Harry Reid

202-224-3542

http://reid.senate.gov/

Nevada

John Ensign

202-224-6244

http://ensign.senate.gov/

New York

Charles Schumer

202-224-6542

http://schumer.senate.gov/

New York

Kirsten Gillibrand

202-224-4451

http://gillibrand.senate.gov/

Ohio

George Voinovich

202-224-3353

http://voinovich.senate.gov/

Ohio

Sherrod Brown

202-224-2315

http://brown.senate.gov/

Oklahoma

James Inhofe

202-224-4721

http://inhofe.senate.gov/

Oklahoma

Tom Coburn

202-224-5754

http://coburn.senate.gov/

Oregon

Ron Wyden

202-224-5244

http://wyden.senate.gov/

Oregon

Jeff Merkley

202-224-3753

http://merkley.senate.gov/

Pennsylvania

Arlen Specter

202-224-4254

http://specter.senate.gov/

Pennsylvania

Robert Casey

202-224-6324

http://casey.senate.gov/

Rhode Island

Jack Reed

202-224-4642

http://reed.senate.gov/

Rhode Island

Sheldon Whitehouse

202-224-2921

http://whitehouse.senate.gov/

South Carolina

Lindsey Graham

202-224-5972

http://lgraham.senate.gov/

South Carolina

James DeMint

202-224-6121

http://demint.senate.gov/

South Dakota

Tim Johnson

202-224-5842

http://johnson.senate.gov/

South Dakota

John Thune

202-224-2321

http://thune.senate.gov/

Tennessee

Lamar Alexander

202-224-4944

http://alexander.senate.gov/

Tennessee

Bob Corker

202-224-3344

http://corker.senate.gov/

Texas

Kay Hutchison

202-224-5922

http://hutchison.senate.gov/

Texas

John Cornyn

202-224-2934

http://cornyn.senate.gov/

Utah

Orrin Hatch

202-224-5251

http://hatch.senate.gov/

Utah

Robert Bennett

202-224-5444

http://bennett.senate.gov/

Virginia

James Webb

202-224-4024

http://webb.senate.gov/

Virginia

Mark Warner

202-224-2023

http://warner.senate.gov/

Vermont

Patrick Leahy

202-224-4242

http://leahy.senate.gov/

Vermont

Bernie Sanders

202-224-5141

http://sanders.senate.gov/

Washington

Patty Murray

202-224-2621

http://murray.senate.gov/

Washington

Maria Cantwell

202-224-3441

http://cantwell.senate.gov/

Wisconsin

Herb Kohl

202-224-5653

http://kohl.senate.gov/

Wisconsin

Russell Feingold

202-224-5323

http://feingold.senate.gov/

West Virginia

Robert Byrd

202-224-3954

http://byrd.senate.gov/

West Virginia

John Rockefeller

202-224-6472

http://rockefeller.senate.gov/

Wyoming

Michael Enzi

202-224-3424

http://enzi.senate.gov/

Wyoming

John Barrasso

202-224-6441

http://barrasso.senate.gov/

 

 

palo verde  posted on  2009-11-04   12:22:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: christine, noone222, Kamala, TwentyTwelve, Wudidiz, CadetD, farmfriend, randge, Esso, abraxas, ratcat, Jethro Tull, IndieTX, HOUNDDAWG, phantom patriot, James Deffenbach, Mr Nuke Buzzcut, all (#0)

How do you boil a frog? Slowly.

This is a good example of the Hegelian Dialectic at play.

Problem

Reaction

Solution.

Problem: Tobacco taxes have been raised to the point where people are seeking all legal means to minimize them.

Reaction: Smokers go mail order to the lowest cost supplier.

Solution: Increase the restrictions on tobacco availability.

And don't forget - setting there in the background is the new authority, not yet exercised, granted the FDA to regulate tobacco.

I think the overall plan and intent should at this point be clear: Tobacco for some unstated reason is being used as a vehicle to increase the level of tyrannical control and because it has some affect our would-be masters do not like.

I still think that at least in part it is because smokers do not use anti-depressants at the level used by non-smokers.

There are likely other reasons, but one thing you can be sure of the health and well being of the American People is NOT one of them - all PR to the contrary.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-04   14:18:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Original_Intent (#2)

I still think that at least in part it is because smokers do not use anti-depressants at the level used by non-smokers.

They are against self medication in all its forms.


"Greenhouse gases do not act as a blanket around the earth and they do not keep the atmosphere warm. ... greenhouse gases emit more radiation than they absorb and this ongoing radiation loss tends to cool the atmosphere at between 1C and 2C per day, a fact known for more than 50 years. And yet we continue to get the simplistic explanation that greenhouse gases warm the atmosphere and so more greenhouse gases will warm the atmosphere more. No wonder the public is taken in!" --William Kininmonth, meteorologist , 1791

farmfriend  posted on  2009-11-04   14:26:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: farmfriend (#3)

I still think that at least in part it is because smokers do not use anti-depressants at the level used by non-smokers.

They are against self medication in all its forms.

Unless of course the elite profit from it in some way. Anti-depressants are the most profitable category of drug marketed by Big Pharma. The profits are in the billions, with a "B", per year.

As well tobacco seems to have a prophylactic effect minimizing some types of disorders such as Alzheimer's Disease.

There is a hidden agenda at play on the tobacco issue and I do not pretend to know all of it, but I can look at the evidence, the behaviors and actions, and deduce its existence.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-04   14:40:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: palo verde (#0) (Edited)

Honestly, with all the things to call congress about this one ranks at the very bottom of the to do list. If I were president, king, supreme ruler, whatever you want to call it these days, you would really like me, I would outlaw all cigarettes.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2009-11-04   20:22:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Original_Intent (#2)

I still think that at least in part it is because smokers do not use anti-depressants at the level used by non-smokers.

I kind of doubt this. If anything smokers probably take more anti-depressants than non-smokers.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2009-11-04   20:27:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: palo verde (#0)

4. This bill represents discriminatory pricing as the majority of smokers are lower-income, many on a fixed income.

Think about this one for a while.

Do you think just maybe that the majority of smokers might have a low-income because they smoke and the health problems it causes?

Do you know the executives of tobacco companies don't smoke?

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2009-11-04   20:33:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: RickyJ (#6)

Actually - I was reading about it around 6 months to a year ago and smokers DO use anti-depressants at a statistically significant rate less than non-smokers. They also have a lower rate of Alzheimer's and remain mentally active and alert later in life than non-smokers. The most recent I read on it was in the "Daily Dose" Newsletter put out by Dr. William Campbell Douglass. Not that there are not health concerns but there is an old saw to the effect that a poison depends upon the dose. Smoking is a stress reliever and if you get too wound up it gives you something to do to relax. A nice Cigar, my Pipe, or a cigarette help me to smooth the rattled nerves, and I am sure that holds true for others.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-04   20:45:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Original_Intent. all (#8)

The most recent I read on it was in the "Daily Dose" Newsletter put out by Dr. William Campbell Douglass. Not that there are not health concerns but there is an old saw to the effect that a poison depends upon the dose. Smoking is a stress reliever and if you get too wound up it gives you something to do to relax. A nice Cigar, my Pipe, or a cigarette help me to smooth the rattled nerves, and I am sure that holds true for others.

Amen to all of the above.

If you got'em, smoke'em.

Lod  posted on  2009-11-04   20:50:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: RickyJ, palo verde, Original_Intent, farmfriend (#5) (Edited)

If I were president, king, supreme ruler, whatever you want to call it these days, you would really like me, I would outlaw all cigarettes.

I'm with you, Supreme Leader Ricky J.

And I'd add to your no-no list. No cigarettes for smokers, no food for fatties, no booze for drinkers, no sex for heart disease patients, etc etc

If the Dem Party socialists are successful in ramming through their costly Utopian universal health care plan, as a middle class income tax payer, I want to reduce the unhealthy and risky behavior of the rubes whose health care expenses the middle class worker bees will be on the hook for paying.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-04   20:58:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: scrapper2, RickyJ, palo verde, farmfriend, all (#10)

Sieg Heil!

Sieg Heil!

Sieg Heil!

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-04   21:06:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Original_Intent. all (#11)

Sieg Heil!

Sieg Heil!

Sieg Heil!

No Shiite!

Lod  posted on  2009-11-04   22:14:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Original_Intent (#2)

Thanks for the ping OI I wish I had gotten here earlier.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   9:51:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: RickyJ, All (#5)

Honestly, with all the things to call congress about this one ranks at the very bottom of the to do list. If I were president, king, supreme ruler, whatever you want to call it these days, you would really like me, I would outlaw all cigarettes.

Some folks sure do have a strange understanding of the words FREEDOM, and LIBERTY.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   9:54:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: palo verde (#0)

"We don't smoke this shit. We just sell it. We reserve the right to smoke for the young, the poor, the black and the stupid." Dave Goerlitz, former model who appeared in Winston cigarette advertisements, recounting the comments of a tobacco industry executive.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2009-11-05   10:16:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: phantom patriot (#14)

Hey, smokers cost more than they are worth. Sorry, but they are a complete and total drain on society. If they could smoke without it affecting others financially or health wise than I wouldn't mind them smoking their lives away. But that is not the case and you know it isn't.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2009-11-05   10:26:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: RickyJ (#5)

If I were president, king, supreme ruler, whatever you want to call it these days, you would really like me, I would outlaw all cigarettes.

What a nanny stater!!! Guns next on your agenda? No second amendment for the serfs? Maybe potato chips and chocolate and sodas? Install the food police to patrol the masses. Keep them in line with YOUR ideas about what's good for all.

You do realize this has already been attempted with alcohol, don't you? Yeah, prohibition was just so darn good for ALL. So darn effective we should try it with cigarettes any other product you deem unfit for consumption.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   10:28:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: phantom patriot (#13)

You are most welcome.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   10:36:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: RickyJ (#16)

Hey, smokers cost more than they are worth. Sorry, but they are a complete and total drain on society. If they could smoke without it affecting others financially or health wise than I wouldn't mind them smoking their lives away. But that is not the case and you know it isn't.

In my America it is.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   10:45:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: palo verde (#0)

This must be part of that free market, "laissez-faire" capitalist system those on the left claim we have.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2009-11-05   10:46:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Lod, Original_Intent (#12)

Sieg Heil!

No Shiite!

You guys do know I was kidding right?

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   10:48:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: scrapper2 (#21)

We hope. ;-)

Lod  posted on  2009-11-05   10:50:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: abraxas, RickyJ (#17)

What a nanny stater!!!

Most surprising. I thought I'd seen posts where he was espousing LIBERTY.

I have to get a copy of this translation book others keep refering to. Maybe I'll understand the language cause it aint english.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   10:51:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: RickyJ (#16)

I can't recall a time when a smoker cost me money involuntarily. Not one time.

Your argument is going to be fronted, once they pass Marxist Health Care, to disarm us.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   10:57:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Original_Intent (#2)

I think the overall plan and intent should at this point be clear: Tobacco for some unstated reason is being used as a vehicle to increase the level of tyrannical control

The criminal class in DC has to keep feeding the Prison-Congressional Complex. They also need ever new ways to fund their black ops. What better way than to continue regulating until they can outright make tobacco illegal. Then they can jail tobacco users and growers just like they do other illegal drugs while at the same time smuggle tobacco into the country via the black market and make 1000x the profit they would make as a legal substance. The same exact thing they do with illegal drugs today.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2009-11-05   10:58:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Lod, Ricky J (#22) (Edited)

We hope. ;-)

Ha!

OTOH, I agree with Ricky J. I'm not phoning Congress on this issue. My uncle died of lung cancer. It's a horrible disease to see someone die from. I'm not about to load a pistol for a suicider. Smokers are not having cigarettes removed from the market place, correct? So they still have freedom and liberty to buy cigarettes. They just need to buy them at a store, not online. I like a certain brand of clothes that are not offered online so I need to get in my car and buy that brand at a store - less convenient, but not a major freedom damper.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   11:05:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: RickyJ, phantom patriot, Lod, Scrapper2, farmfriend, palo verde, Hayek Fan, all (#16)

Hey, smokers cost more than they are worth. Sorry, but they are a complete and total drain on society. If they could smoke without it affecting others financially or health wise than I wouldn't mind them smoking their lives away. But that is not the case and you know it isn't.

Attaboy!

Regurgitate the propaganda without bothering to actually investigate. Show us your prejudices and repeat the mantra again - "the lying mainstream press that tells us that Vioxx, aspartame, and anti-depressants are good for us has spoken. Tobacco bad! Smokers bad! They should be put in Kamps and made pariahs because they don't use enough of Big Pharma's most profitable products. Why it's unpatriotic is what it is.

Riddle me this Batman?

Japan has DOUBLE the rate of adult smoking of the United States per capita. Japan has HALF the rate of HEART DISEASE. France has a higher rate of smoking and a much lower rate of HEART DISEASE.

Gosh Batman does that mean that there are other factors, like diet, that are being ignored while blaming it all on smoking?

To go easy on you I used to believe the propaganda myself, to some degree, until the contrary evidence began accumulating.

Yes there are some negative effects created by smoking - mostly reduced lung capacity and the possibility of emphysema (Lung Cancer often used as one of the bogeymen is only marginally higher among smokers than non-smokers - there is an increased risk but it is not the universal cause as the propaganda has led people to misbelieve). However, none of the studies which have purported to assign all these negative effects have controlled for other key factors which become more and more apparent as the evidence accumulates such as the chemicals added to commercial cigarettes and the material used for the filters. While there is more than one factor given short shrift diet seems to be the biggest and the average American diet rich in junk, fat, chemicals, and starches while being short on leafy greens, legumes, and phytochemicals is never taken into account in any of the studies purporting to show negative correlations. Due to pressure from alternative practicioners and a growing awareness even in the AMA controlled community it is gradually gaining more attention, BUT Big Food, working with your "good friend" the FDA has also helped to minimize and suppress the information and conclusions because there is little profit in it for Big Pharma if people began to eat a healthier diet and rates of disease went down because of it. Just as the 20 year study done by WHO in Europe, which showed "second hand smoke" as having a prophylactic affect on those exposed, was suppressed, buried, and never released except for the few snippets that leaked out.

So, you may parrot the slanted, distorted, and inaccurate information paraded by the Lamestream media or you may actually examine the evidence and inform yourself beyond regurgitating propaganda. Oh, and do you think cholesterol causes heart disease too?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   11:07:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: RickyJ (#16)

Hey, smokers cost more than they are worth

Balony!! Across this nation SIN TAX on cigs pays for all sorts of social programs for nanny staters.

That massive winfall from the tobacco industry is paying for kids to go to college, paying for state medical freebies and all sorts of lame "prevention" programs that are about as successful as DARE or Just Say No.

Smokers generally die sooner and don't require any additional costs after death. Multitudes of non smokers can live decades in old folks homes. I visit a gal who is 90 years old everyweek. She has no idea what is going on, very little quality of life, but she never did smoke. I've been with her on hospice for two years now. Do you have any idea what that kind of care costs?

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   11:08:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: phantom patriot, RickyJ (#23)

Most surprising. I thought I'd seen posts where he was espousing LIBERTY.

Yes, I thought so too. I recall discussing the finer points of LIBERTY and FREEDOM on more than one occassion.

I wonder, will he be for the lot of us paying more taxes when there is no more sin tax to collect from cigs? Several dollars from every pack go to pay for all sorts of things that nanny state deems necessary. And shall we all throw more tax dollars at ENFORCEMENT for a newly minted Gistapo to patrol the streets of this nation for cigs, smokers and criminal gangs bringing the masses their fix?

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   11:13:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: palo verde (#0)

Thanks palo! Did my part but it's Md. not sure what good it will do.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   11:14:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: scrapper2 (#26)

I'm not about to load a pistol for a suicider.

When I was little the time I most treasure with my grandpa was making cigs and bullets. He had this little machine that put the filter on and I would load the St. Alberts in the paper. We spent hours while he made bullets and I made his cigs.

Yes, he did die of lung cancer. However, we would not had such good times had he not smoked or loved to shoot black powder. He liked kids to be useful and you had to enjoy the activities he picked to have any fun. I don't feel that I contributed to his death, but rather to his life. He would found some other grandkid to make the smokes if I opted out.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   11:19:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#29)

I wonder, will he be for the lot of us paying more taxes when there is no more sin tax to collect from cigs? Several dollars from every pack go to pay for all sorts of things that nanny state deems necessary. And shall we all throw more tax dollars at ENFORCEMENT for a newly minted Gistapo to patrol the streets of this nation for cigs, smokers and criminal gangs bringing the masses their fix?

He and many others have no idea what they are inviting.

I hope he realizes LIBERTY lost, will not be regained easily.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   11:19:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: RickyJ (#16) (Edited)

Sorry, but they are a complete and total drain on society.

There are a lot of complete and total drains on society. When will you and your ilk begin going after them?

If they could smoke without it affecting others financially or health wise than I wouldn't mind them smoking their lives away. But that is not the case and you know it isn't.

The senior citizen population is much more of a drain on society financially and health wise. So are the obese? When do we begin offing them in order to save you money? It sounds like you should apply for the Obama death panels. You'd fit right in.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2009-11-05   11:20:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: abraxas, phantom patriot, Ricky J (#29) (Edited)

Most surprising. I thought I'd seen posts where he was espousing LIBERTY.

Yes, I thought so too. I recall discussing the finer points of LIBERTY and FREEDOM on more than one occassion.

Sorry, but I'm not "getting" the Paul Revere vibes emoting from this issue that you seem to be feeling.

Smokers have the freedom to buy cigarettes in a stand up store, correct?

So how does online cigarette buying being removed as an option take away smokers' freedom and liberty when 24 hour convenience stores, grocery stores, still sell cigarettes?

Can you buy everything your heart desires online? I sure can't. So is our freedom and liberty under assault because we can't buy everything online but need to go to a stand up store?

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   11:26:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Original_Intent, RickyJ (#27)

So, you may parrot the slanted, distorted, and inaccurate information paraded by the Lamestream media or you may actually examine the evidence and inform yourself beyond regurgitating propaganda. Oh, and do you think cholesterol causes heart disease too?

Give em what for OI. My Granny lived to be 98. She smoked and we had fat back for breakfast every morn. Of course this was country fresh.

Splain dat Lucy errr Ricky!

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   11:27:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: scrapper2 (#34)

Smokers have the freedom to buy cigarettes in a stand up store, correct?

So how does online cigarette buying being removed as an option take away smokers' freedom and liberty when 24 hour convenience stores, grocery stores, still sell cigarettes?

Because the option is being removed by government. People have the right to engage in peaceful trade as they wish. Government interference in any market mechanism that peddles legal, peaceful products is an infringement of liberty on the seller, as well as the customers who use that mechanism. The liberty in question being the right to association (via peaceful trade) being infringed.

Can you buy everything your heart desires online? I sure can't. So is our freedom and liberty under assault because we can't buy everything online but need to go to a stand up store?

What you can't buy, you presumably can't buy because no vendor has thought to offer the product online. That's not a loss of liberty, nobody is standing outside as a third party between you and the producer of your favorite products saying "THOU SHALL NOT!". It's only that third party that causes the infringement, sort of definitionally.

All of this said, I think we all have much bigger fish to fry right now than online cigarettes. We're about to have our economy and remaining macro liberties swallowed wholesale, while we're ditering on the fringes.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   11:31:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: scrapper2 (#34)

Smokers have the freedom to buy cigarettes in a stand up store, correct?

Yes, What is your point? There is more choice online. Tobacco that is natural and not tainted with chems. I'll bet every store will stock up on those now.

Also by buying the products individually and not manufactured we have until now been able to avoid some taxes.

All of this is really moot. They are going to create another black market that they will consider us criminals but behind the scene make profit upon.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   11:35:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: SonOfLiberty, Ricky J (#36)

All of this said, I think we all have much bigger fish to fry right now than online cigarettes. We're about to have our economy and remaining macro liberties swallowed wholesale, while we're ditering on the fringes.

Well said.

And I recall Ricky J making a similar observation in msg. #5.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   11:36:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: scrapper2 (#34)

Smokers have the freedom to buy cigarettes in a stand up store, correct?

So how does online cigarette buying being removed as an option take away smokers' freedom and liberty when 24 hour convenience stores, grocery stores, still sell cigarettes?

Smokers should be the only group forced to pay state tax levied on a product when all other products could be purchased online for less?

Why should one product be held captive to state tax revenue schemes? Would you promote this for other products as well? If a tax on soda comes into effect, for instance, internet sales should be abolished for the greater good?

This is huge revenue for states:

Minnesota slapped an extra 75-cent charge on a pack of cigarettes because of budget problems two years ago. The state expects to collect about $451 million from smokers this year but is projecting a drop of about 1 percent a year, or $4 million to $5 million — and that is does not even take into account the potential effect of a statewide smoking ban.

California banned smoking in bars and restaurants in 1998 and raised its cigarette tax 50 cents a pack in 1999. Tobacco tax revenue boomed, then started to decline. It has leveled off at about $1 billion a year in the past few years, thanks to a crackdown on counterfeit tax stamps, said Anita Gore, a spokeswoman for California Board of Equalization.

What this plan does is hold smokers captive to states taxing smokers ad nauseum, which does take away from smokers' freedom and liberty to purchase a product at the best price under a FREE MARKET system.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   11:38:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: scrapper2 (#34)

Sorry, but I'm not "getting" the Paul Revere vibes emoting from this issue that you seem to be feeling.

Smokers have the freedom to buy cigarettes in a stand up store, correct?

So by your logic, if the government removed the food supply from the free market and provided everything themselves, then we will have not lost any freedom because the items that we need/want are being provided.

Sorry. I disagree.

Whenever the government steps in and says "you can't do this" or "you can't do that" they they are taking away a freedom.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2009-11-05   11:39:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: abraxas, all (#28)

Something the nanny staters really don't like to hear is that the oldest woman in the world, who died last year in her 120's, was a smoker. Although she did cut down in her 90's, and had to start sneaking them after she became the oldest woman in the world because her "nannies" didn't approve (she also had a fondness for red wine).

My grandfather who was active all the way into his 99th year was a smoker. He quit though because he started believing the propaganda - when he was 85. He died ten days short of his 100th birthday from a kidney infection unrelated to smoking or age.

The last oldest man in America still smoked a cigar a day at 113.

And as you correctly point out the amount collected in tobacco taxes has long since surpassed any supposed additional costs created by the ill effects of smoking (which again have been greatly exaggerated).

All of the factors affecting people in their later years are not known. One thing that has surfaced in a couple of studies released in the last 2 or 3 years is that smokers have a lower rate of Alzheimer's Disease and remain mentally alert and active later in life. That is not my opinion but a result found in valid research.

However, it is NOT my argument that smoking is a health benefit or good for one, but simply that the negative effects have been exaggerated and oversold to suit another agenda. Just as Saccarhine was torpedoed with bogus experiments to pave the way for the much more toxic aspartame (a.k.a. Nutra-SweetDeath).

It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not trust the mainstream media to report on political issues will nevertheless take their reportage on other issues as gospel - never accounting for the fact that their reportage is heavily influenced by large advertisers (they are in the advertising not news business) such as BIG PHARMA and BIG FOOD. Take for example the two reporters for a Florida Station that were fired because they would not lie about the ill effects of RBGH (Recombinant Bovine Growth Hormone) which they had uncovered in their research for a story on it. Monsanto, a BIG advertiser, wanted the story modified to promote their product.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   11:40:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Original_Intent (#41)

it is NOT my argument that smoking is a health benefit or good for one, but simply that the negative effects have been exaggerated and oversold to suit another agenda.

Excellent post.

I agree completely. I adamently support the freedom to make that individual choice and not be told by the goobermint what one can and cannot do. People should be able to shop for the best prices too and not be held captive to state revenue schemes.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   11:46:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: phantom patriot (#37)

Yes, What is your point? There is more choice online. Tobacco that is natural and not tainted with chems. I'll bet every store will stock up on those now.

Also by buying the products individually and not manufactured we have until now been able to avoid some taxes.

My point is that the issue has little to do with an assault on smokers' freedom and more to do with smokers as consumers being somewhat inconvenienced. Join the rest of the consumer world.

Promoting a minor inconvenience as an assault on freedom and liberty is a no sale for me. Sorry.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   11:47:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: all (#0)

United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers, will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you.

Should these business be forced out of market share and business by this idiotic prohibition?

It's not only the smokers who are getting reamed but distribution businesses as well......and for what? Cui Bono?

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   11:48:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: scrapper2 (#34)

So how does online cigarette buying being removed as an option take away smokers' freedom and liberty when 24 hour convenience stores, grocery stores, still sell cigarettes?

Earth to Scrapper2!

Earth to Scrapper2!

It is called freedom of choice.

I purchase mail order because I choose not to buy the chemical laced cigarettes sold in "convenience" stores. I purchase an all natural chemically untreated tobacco of much much higher quality for about the same price via mail order. It is convenience and availability of a higher quality product. It is also called freedom.

Freedom is not stolen, generally, in one fell swoop. It is eroded one little step at a time by taking little freedoms in increasing numbers.

The "it does not affect me" is the very attitude which will affect you when other people cop the same attitude over some small liberty which you enjoy. "Why should I care if they take the bloops off to camps? I'm not a bloop."

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   11:55:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Original_Intent (#45)

I've heard of a movement of people growing their own tobacco. I wonder if it's viable in Ohio (where I live)? Would seem to be a great place to make some extra cash.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   11:56:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: scrapper2 (#43)

My point is that the issue has little to do with an assault on smokers' freedom and more to do with smokers as consumers being somewhat inconvenienced. Join the rest of the consumer world.

As a consumer, please list all of the other products you would like to not be able to purchase online. What other products would you like limited access to and increased inconvenience to get the best possible price? What other products would you like to pay more in taxes to prop up state budgets?

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   12:03:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Hayek Fan (#40)

So by your logic, if the government removed the food supply from the free market and provided everything themselves, then we will have not lost any freedom because the items that we need/want are being provided.

The gov't is not removing the ability for smokers to buy cigarettes. They are just taking away the option of buying cigarettes online, an option which did not exist since time immemorial, btw.

Sorry, I'm not buying this as an assault on freedom and liberty. This is all about $ - the gubment wants to make more because it doesn't want to reduce expenses. The smokers want to save a few cents of sales tax on their consumer item. Btw, most/all purchases I make online are taxed - this is news to me that online sales of cigarettes had no sales tax.

In any event, with all that gubment is planning to do in regards to assaulting our liberty and freedom in big ways - not just sales tax and online shopping convenience - I'm not seeing this as a particularly grave matter. But knock yourself out.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   12:04:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Original_Intent (#27)

(Lung Cancer often used as one of the bogeymen is only marginally higher among smokers than non-smokers - there is an increased risk but it is not the universal cause as the propaganda has led people to misbelieve)

Hence the need for "second hand smoke".


"Greenhouse gases do not act as a blanket around the earth and they do not keep the atmosphere warm. ... greenhouse gases emit more radiation than they absorb and this ongoing radiation loss tends to cool the atmosphere at between 1C and 2C per day, a fact known for more than 50 years. And yet we continue to get the simplistic explanation that greenhouse gases warm the atmosphere and so more greenhouse gases will warm the atmosphere more. No wonder the public is taken in!" --William Kininmonth, meteorologist , 1791

farmfriend  posted on  2009-11-05   12:05:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: farmfriend (#49)

Hence the need for "second hand smoke".

And no debate on chemtrails......nothing to see here looky lous, just dispensing unknown products overhead day in and day out. Focus your concern on second hand smoke while we put GMO products into the food chain with no labels to inform you of what you are eating. Focus on second hand smoke and pushing small business owners into enforcing no smoking in their bars while we import deadly dry wall products from China and trash manufacturing in this nation for "environmental" concerns such as "clean air."

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   12:09:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: SonOfLiberty, all (#46)

I've heard of a movement of people growing their own tobacco. I wonder if it's viable in Ohio (where I live)? Would seem to be a great place to make some extra cash.

That is the direction some are headed. Taxes have now been jacked up to the point that some people are finding that they would rather cut out the tax man and grow their own for pennies a pound.

My guess is that is the next avenue that they will try to cut off - people growing their own.

There is another agenda at play in the war on smokers that I have not completely fathomed - it is not just the taxes because taxes have been jacked up the Laffer Curve well past the point of diminishing returns. They could actually, at this point, lower taxes and increase the take on volume.

As well mail order does not adversely affect the Feds because the tax is collected from the wholesalers in every state. The only ones whining are the states that have jacked the taxes up so high that people have sought out legal means of avoiding them.

There is another agenda at play.

The government does not give a shit about our health so that is not the motivation. If they did they would outlaw products such as aspartame (which has many more adverse side effects than smoking).

No, there is an interest pushing this agenda but data insufficient to say exactly who or why.

I do know that smokers use fewer anti-depressants so I suspect that as one of the motives but that is not the only one.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   12:15:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Original_Intent (#51)

I wish I could remember the name of that jackass woman running around country by country organizing anti-smoking pushes and ultimately legislation. I think I heard that she is from Australia. From what I've read, she's behind every single push in the West thus far, from the EU to Australia to New Zealand to the U.S. to Canada.

Gosh, what's her name? She would be a good place to start I think.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   12:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: abraxas (#47)

Particular brand name clothing and shoes I can only buy at stand up stores. That's an inconvenience but certainly not an assault on my liberty.

Regarding sales taxes, you're talking to a consumer taxpayer who lives in a area that probably has the highest sales tax rate in the nation. So while I can understand why smokers are peeved that a free-of-sales tax option has been taken away from them, it was a unique perk that most other online consumers did not enjoy, and I still don't view this matter as a threat to their/our collective liberty.

If you want to march on DC against the idea of gubment arbitrarily adding sales taxes to consumer goods, I'll join you but to get in fluff about smokers now having to pay sales tax on their in store cigarette purchases, is to miss the elephant in the room which you and previous generations have acquiesed to accepting as a "right" of government to generate income to waste.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   12:17:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: scrapper2 (#48)

The gov't is not removing the ability for smokers to buy cigarettes. They are just taking away the option of buying cigarettes online, an option which did not exist since time immemorial, btw.

And if the government outlawed the sale of food by private business so that they could sell it themselves then they would not be taking away the ability of the public to buy food, they would just be taking away the option of buying food from private business. It's the same argument.

Btw, most/all purchases I make online are taxed - this is news to me that online sales of cigarettes had no sales tax.

I do not smoke so I do not know the details but I was under the impression that most of the web sites selling cheap cigarettes were run by various Indian tribes. They are not required to pay federal, state or local taxes. I know this to be true because I live very close to Oklahoma and you can't spit in Oklahoma without running into an Indian cigarette shop.

I'm not seeing this as a particularly grave matter.

Most Americans don't care about that which doesn't affect them. Hence the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, and thousands of other laws and regulations passed by the government. However, while one little cut on your finger may not kill you, thousands of little cuts all over your body will. That's exactly where we are at today. The government is cutting our bodies in as many different places as they can and we are being bled dry. Is it the most important thing going on in the country? No. But that doesn't mean it should be ignored either.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2009-11-05   12:20:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: abraxas, scrapper2, all (#47)

My point is that the issue has little to do with an assault on smokers' freedom and more to do with smokers as consumers being somewhat inconvenienced. Join the rest of the consumer world.

As a consumer, please list all of the other products you would like to not be able to purchase online. What other products would you like limited access to and increased inconvenience to get the best possible price? What other products would you like to pay more in taxes to prop up state budgets?

Clothing, gourmet foods, liquor, fishing tackle, and anything else I damn well please. What I purchase online is in the final analysis irrelevant. The principle of liberty involved is that it is my choice to purchase online or not - at my whim. That is what freedom is - the ability to do what you please when you please. Nothing more, nothing less.

The average American now pays in excess of 40 to 50 percent of their earnings in taxes of one form or another. Even the most draconian and rapacious feudal lords in the Dark ages took no more than 1/3.

Think about that.

At what point does taxation become enslavement?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   12:22:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: scrapper2 (#53)

Particular brand name clothing and shoes I can only buy at stand up stores. That's an inconvenience but certainly not an assault on my liberty.

That is by your choice.

You CAN purchase other makes if you choose to.

You are not required by any law or edict to purchase "designer" brands or merchandise. Personally I REFUSE to buy logo'ed merchandise I find it pretentious and tacky. If some manufacturer wants me to wear their advertising they can pay me to do so and I am not so insecure that I have to wear a logo to show "I'm in". I purchase those items of clothing which I like (generally classic styles like the Merino Wool Shawl Collar Cardigan Sweater I'm currently wearing - purchased online at a HUGE discount).

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   12:29:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: scrapper2 (#53)

but to get in fluff about smokers now having to pay sales tax on their in store cigarette purchases, is to miss the elephant in the room which you and previous generations have acquiesed to accepting as a "right" of government to generate income to waste.

I disagree.

First they come for the smokers, you do nothing because you don't smoke.

Next they come for the drinkers, you do nothing because you don't drink.

Next they come for the free thinkings...................

Next they come for the gun owners................

You, I think, miss the elephant in the room in that if you allow the freedoms of one group to go under assualt and do nothing, then the assault (the elephant) will continue until it does impact you personally. That's my "fluff" on this issue and this is a legitimate fluff.

I'm surprised at your willingness to have the goobermint single out one group and one product for unequal access and consumer freedom. Tell me, where does this slippery slope end for you?

I disagree with the entire premise of sin tax and always have. Of course, this crap legislation sails through because so many people say, "well, I don't smoke so who cares if this group pays more." If people stood on principle, rather than personal choices, then they would not have let this elephant get out of hand to the extent that it has. I don't see how allowing more and more and more infringment reduces this income to waste problem, in fact, it exacerbates the problem.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   12:31:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Hayek Fan (#54)

Most Americans don't care about that which doesn't affect them. Hence the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, and thousands of other laws and regulations passed by the government

The Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act were grave assaults on liberty and freedom that all of us here recognized as such. But this matter is from my view a matter of inconvenience and saving sales tax $. In no way does this matter compare to the Patriot Act or Military Commissions Act. Now if you said that gubment arbitrarily imposing sales tax on consumer items to generate income was an assault on on our liberty, I'd be with you but you are not saying that. In fact, you and others here as per generations before you have accepted sales taxes as gubment's right to generate income [to waste on useless programs]. To be selective in your outrage re: sales taxes doesn't fly with me. You fret about the small cut, but you have accepted the big gouge.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   12:31:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: SonOfLiberty (#52)

I wish I could remember the name of that jackass woman running around country by country organizing anti-smoking pushes and ultimately legislation. I think I heard that she is from Australia. From what I've read, she's behind every single push in the West thus far, from the EU to Australia to New Zealand to the U.S. to Canada.

Gosh, what's her name? She would be a good place to start I think.

Where I would go would be to "follow the money". Who is funding her "crusade"? My guess would be that like "CHAD" (an advocacy front group for the so-called learning disabled) which promotes the use of drugs like Ritalin and Adderol whose financial support comes from Big Pharma. No doubt in my mind that someone with a different agenda is funding this woman - likely through conduits and cut-outs to make it harder to trace.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   12:36:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: SonOfLiberty, RickyJ (#24)

I can't recall a time when a smoker cost me money involuntarily. Not one time.

Your health insurance premiums are higher due to smokers.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:37:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Original_Intent (#59)

Right, what I mean is that by knowing her name you'd have a clear starting point to begin looking behind the scenes. I'll see if I can locate her name.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   12:38:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: belmontconservative (#60)

I can't recall a time when a smoker cost me money involuntarily. Not one time. Your health insurance premiums are higher due to smokers.

So your claim is that I have insurance involuntarily? It's a legal mandate that I own insurance at this date? Show me the law.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   12:39:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: scrapper2 (#48)

This is all about $ - the gubment wants to make more because it doesn't want to reduce expenses.

Read this part of your post again. Then tell me this isn't a problem in itself.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   12:43:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: abraxas (#31)

Yes, he did die of lung cancer. However, we would not had such good times had he not smoked or loved to shoot black powder. He liked kids to be useful and you had to enjoy the activities he picked to have any fun. I don't feel that I contributed to his death, but rather to his life. He would found some other grandkid to make the smokes if I opted out.

You would have had a longer time together had he not smoked. Maybe you would have had good times had he not smoked such as taking hikes, etc.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:43:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: abraxas (#57)

I'm surprised at your willingness to have the goobermint single out one group and one product for unequal access and consumer freedom. Tell me, where does this slippery slope end for you?

There is no slippery slope for me - perhaps for you - you allow yourself to slide until a small bump causes aggravation. I resent the whole idea of sales taxes being arbitrarily imposed by government on all of us. I resent the whole idea of income taxes being collected by government, period, and particularly so when they are "graduated" and continually increasing. But you seem to resent gubment taxes only when a small sub-category catches your interest to trumpet about.

I'm tired of debating this miniscule issue with you. Call Congress. Better still march on Congress so smokers can buy cigarettes online without sales tax. Go for it!

But I fear you are focusing on the ant while the tiger is about to devour you - in case you have forgotten, a grandiose assault on our liberty and freedom will be voted on by Congress on Saturday.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   12:45:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Hayek Fan (#54)

Most Americans don't care about that which doesn't affect them. Hence the Patriot Act, Military Commissions Act, and thousands of other laws and regulations passed by the government. However, while one little cut on your finger may not kill you, thousands of little cuts all over your body will. That's exactly where we are at today. The government is cutting our bodies in as many different places as they can and we are being bled dry. Is it the most important thing going on in the country? No. But that doesn't mean it should be ignored either.

Very good articulation! Step by step. Inch by inch.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   12:48:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: phantom patriot (#63)

Read this part of your post again. Then tell me this isn't a problem in itself.

List for me all the dates of protest events you attended, the letters you wrote to Congress, your continued battle over the years against gubment's arbitrary power to impose sales taxes on all consumer items. Thank you.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   12:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: SonOfLiberty (#62)

I you are under a group health insurnace plan you pay the same rate as the smokers. Just curious,do you have health insurance?

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:50:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: scrapper2 (#26)

Smokers are not having cigarettes removed from the market place, correct? So they still have freedom and liberty to buy cigarettes.

Incorrect.

Smokers will be forced to pay the price their State demands, a bad precedent. What will be next?

So they still have freedom and liberty to buy cigarettes.

Only if you call being financially raped by liberal legislators "freedom"

Ted Kennedy Is Now Eligible To Vote In Chicago.

Flintlock  posted on  2009-11-05   12:51:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: belmontconservative (#68)

I you are under a group health insurnace plan you pay the same rate as the smokers. Just curious,do you have health insurance?

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

Where is it mandated that I'm forced to have health insurance, or am forced to participate in one health insurance program over another by law?

Show me the law. Then we can talk about being forced to pay anything. Anything else is sloppy language and sophistry.

Thanks.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   12:53:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Original_Intent (#59)

which promotes the use of drugs like Ritalin

Years ago they put my son on that crap. He looked like a zombie. I took him off because then I still could. I don't about now.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   12:53:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: SonOfLiberty (#24)

I can't recall a time when a smoker cost me money involuntarily. Not one time.

Read up on the hospitality industry. Hotels are savings vast amounts of money by going to non smoking rooms-less burns on the furnituire, carpet, less cleaning cost etc. Smokers cost you money indirectly whether you want to admit to it or not.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:54:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: belmontconservative (#64)

taking hikes

Something you should have done from this Forum long ago

PS A song just for you :)

Ted Kennedy Is Now Eligible To Vote In Chicago.

Flintlock  posted on  2009-11-05   12:55:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: belmontconservative, abraxas, SonOfLiberty, Lod, scrapper2, RickyJ, palo verde, farmfriend, all (#60) (Edited)

I can't recall a time when a smoker cost me money involuntarily. Not one time.

Your health insurance premiums are higher due to smokers.

Not true.

It is only true in the limited sense that most group policies do not differentiate between members of the group but that the premiums are based upon actuarial tables relevant for the entire group.

The same argument could be made that:

Diabetics push your premiums up.

Drinkers push your premiums up.

People who have poor dental habits push your premiums up.

Government mandates push your premiums up (the biggest culprit).

The requirement to use expensive products from Big Pharma push your premiums up.

Legal requirements which require the use of an MD rather than a Nurse Practioner or Naturopath push your premiums up.

People who eat junk food or otherwise unhealthy "meat and potatoes" diets push your premiums up.

People who are overweight push your premiums up.

Give me a break and get real. Take the time to actually look at the available information before embarrassing yourself.

Premiums are based on ACTUARIAL TABLES FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP in Group Policies.

The hazards and risks of tobacco use have been exaggerated, hyped, and over sold. "The dose makes the poison." There is also a difference between a "two pack-a-day" smoker and someone like myself who smokes less than one pack per day.

You are like someone else on this thread regurgitating authoritative sounding propaganda which turns to mush when given more than a cursory analysis.

If you insist on robotically repeating "everybody knows" misinformation then stand by to stand by because I have studied the issue and the science and I will not let regurgitated planted information go unchallenged.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   12:56:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: belmontconservative (#72)

Read up on the hospitality industry. Hotels are savings vast amounts of money by going to non smoking rooms-less burns on the furnituire, carpet, less cleaning cost etc. Smokers cost you money indirectly whether you want to admit to it or not.

Show me where I'm forced to stay at a Hotel (or Motel) by law. Also, please answer my first questions to you.

You don't seem to understand the term "involuntary". I recommend you to www.dictionary.com.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   12:56:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Original_Intent (#74)

And, the biggest cost of all on health care/insurance, people who live very long lives. They just suck the industry dry.

It's fun to throw the argument back at'em from time to time ain't it? :)

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   12:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: SonOfLiberty (#70)

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

Where is it mandated that I'm forced to have health insurance, or am forced to participate in one health insurance program over another by law?

Nope, not a law to have health insurnace. But I pointed out that if you are on a groups health insurnace plan you are paying for the smokers on th eplan via higher premiums.

Sounds like you have no health insurancee. If you have a $500k claim are you ready to pay for it or are your going to walk away and have the hospital write it off as a loss...and then charge me higher rates?

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:58:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: SonOfLiberty (#75)

Show me where I'm forced to stay at a Hotel (or Motel) by law.

You have never stayed in a hotel or motel???

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:59:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: scrapper2 (#67)

List for me all the dates of protest events you attended, the letters you wrote to Congress, your continued battle over the years against gubment's arbitrary power to impose sales taxes on all consumer items. Thank you.

What does that have to do with my post?

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   13:00:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: belmontconservative (#77)

Nope, not a law to have health insurnace.

Then my statement stands, and my point is validated.

It's been a fun discussion. Thanks for participation.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:00:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: phantom patriot (#71)

which promotes the use of drugs like Ritalin

Years ago they put my son on that crap. He looked like a zombie. I took him off because then I still could. I don't about now.

Your experience parallels that of many others I have heard and read.

According to Dr. Fred Baughman the only significant difference between Ritalin and Methamphetamine is that Ritalin produces big profits for Big Pharma.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:02:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: belmontconservative (#78) (Edited)

You have never stayed in a hotel or motel???

Show me where I'm forced to do so by law.

This answer should end up the same as the one regarding insurance.

Ergo, I'm not "forced" to pay any costs, I choose where my money goes and am quite capable of choosing not to participate where I feel the burden is too great.

Seems a much better solution, to me, than getting on the government bandwagon.

Seriously this was the easiest thread debate I've ever been in. Thanks for being a part of it. :)

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:02:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Original_Intent (#74)

Excellent points!

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   13:07:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Original_Intent (#81)

According to Dr. Fred Baughman the only significant difference between Ritalin and Methamphetamine is that Ritalin produces big profits for Big Pharma.

I did not know this. But his behavior while taking it did match the crash at the end.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   13:10:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: belmontconservative, SonOfLiberty, all (#77)

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

Where is it mandated that I'm forced to have health insurance, or am forced to participate in one health insurance program over another by law?

Nope, not a law to have health insurnace. But I pointed out that if you are on a groups health insurnace plan you are paying for the smokers on th eplan via higher premiums.

Sounds like you have no health insurancee. If you have a $500k claim are you ready to pay for it or are your going to walk away and have the hospital write it off as a loss...and then charge me higher rates?

And as I pointed out smoking is not the only risk factor which increases premiums for a GROUP.

Do you advocate executing diabetics or depriving them of their liberty because it increases YOUR premiums?

Have you ever advocated special punishment for people whom you perceive as overweight because they increase YOUR insurance premiums?

People who eat an unhealthy diet regardless of weight?

Have you ever taken action to look for a policy which which is lower for non-smokers?

If you wish to live in a slave state may I commend China or North Korea for your list of hospitable societies?

Your argument is a Strawman based upon your personal prejudices and accumulated misinformation.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:12:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: phantom patriot (#79)

What does that have to do with my post?

That you are protesting this one single issue of arbitrary gov't powers under the guise of it being an attack on all our liberty [ one cut, one step] whereas it's really a personal self-serving matter that you want rectified - I'm guessing you or a loved one smoke? - because you have not previously protested the idea of gubment empowering themselves to impose and increase sales taxes on consumer goods willy nilly at their pleasure.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   13:13:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: scrapper2 (#65)

I resent the whole idea of sales taxes being arbitrarily imposed by government on all of us. I resent the whole idea of income taxes being collected by government, period, and particularly so when they are "graduated" and continually increasing. But you seem to resent gubment taxes only when a small sub-category catches your interest to trumpet about.

I resent all of these........even when the small sub catagory is feeling the brunt of it. You seem to feel that the small sub catagory is okie dokie, as long as you aren't a participant.

For most of my life, I've lived where NO sales tax is pushed on the people. When I began working more I shifted from no sales tax to no state income tax to pay. I've battled every tax increase, even after I became a parent and the kiddies need school. I adamently opposed no smoking mandates in bars and restaurants because an OWNER should determine this NOT the goobermint or nanny staters. Of course all the non smokers said "goodie!! Mandate them!! It's for the greater good." The stupid issued passed because of this notion that it only impacts some people in some ways and we need to think of the greater good. Rubish!!

This isn't a miniscule issue because it is a foot in the door to more and more and more and more nanny state. IMHO, apathy over assaults on small sub catagories has led to the larger laviathon goobermint and taxed to death situation we all face now.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   13:14:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: phantom patriot (#84)

According to Dr. Fred Baughman the only significant difference between Ritalin and Methamphetamine is that Ritalin produces big profits for Big Pharma.

I did not know this. But his behavior while taking it did match the crash at the end.

While they have a chemically different formula they affect the same receptor cells in the brain and thus produce virtually identical affects.

Dr. Baughman has a website located at: ADD and ADHD Fraud. Find out the truth about ADD and ADHD ...

Also of interest a father's account at: Death from Ritalin the Truth Behind ADHD.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:20:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Original_Intent (#74)

A. Not true.

It is only true in the limited sense that most group policies do not differentiate between members of the group but that the premiums are based upon actuarial tables relevant for the entire group.

The same argument could be made that:

Diabetics push your premiums up.

Drinkers push your premiums up.

B.Premiums are based on ACTUARIAL TABLES FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP in Group Policies

C.Government mandates push your premiums up (the biggest culprit).

A. Premium rates for groups are based upon the health medical forms submitted before the group is approved. There is a question on every application that ask if you smoke or not. Insurnace companies rate the group higher based upon people who mark the questions yes. Smoking (like diabetes due to obesity and higher rates) leads to high blood pressure, cancers, various breathing conditions etc.

Renewal rates are primarily based upon the claims of the group from the prior year. So yes, smoking leads to higher rates for the group as a whole when there are smokers that also have HBP, etc.

B. Insurnace companies have a base rate but primarily base their HEALTH INSURANCE rates on the medical quest. submitted. 2 identical companies with the same age/demographics can have widly different premiums due to the health of the group. I just submitted a group with a dependent child with downs syndrome and 2 other serious conditions. The family rate was $1800 per month with the baby and $1100 per month without the baby being covered.

C. Gov't mandates are not the biggest culprit for the high rates. Not even in the top 5 reasons. Gov mandates only affect a few parts of health insurnace policies-mainly some mental health issues, preventive care dealing with physicals, mammograms etc. oh and let's not forget the insurance companies are now required to pay for a least a 48 hour stay after childbirth..something all the hospitals and doc's were for as it was proven most issues are gping to happen with a baby in the first 24 hours of the birth.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:21:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: abraxas, scrapper2, all (#87)

It's for the greater good." The stupid issued passed because of this notion that it only impacts some people in some ways and we need to think of the greater good. Rubish!!

"From each according to his ability to each according to his needs." ~ Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels - "The Communist Manifesto"

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:23:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: SonOfLiberty (#82)

You have never stayed in a hotel or motel??? Show me where I'm forced to do so by law.

You never did answer my question(s). Have you ever stayed in a motel or hotel? If you did you involuntarily paid a higher room rate due to smokers in the room.

If you are on a group health insurnace plan your employer and possibly you (if your employer makes you pay a portion of the premium)are paying a higher rate due to smokers. If the answer is yes you are involuntaily paying higher rates due to smokers.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:28:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: belmontconservative (#91)

You never did answer my question(s). Have you ever stayed in a motel or hotel? If you did you involuntarily paid a higher room rate due to smokers in the room.

Bzzt, wrong. If I stayed in a hotel, I voluntarily agreed that the price was acceptable to me. If I found the price burdensome or unfair, I would find another hotel, or sleep in my car as a last resort. Nobody made me do anything involuntarily.

Sorry dude, you're looking for victimhood where none exists.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:30:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Original_Intent (#85)

And as I pointed out smoking is not the only risk factor which increases premiums for a GROUP.

Your health insurance premiums are higher due to smokers.

OI: Not true.

You have contradicted yourself.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:32:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: abraxas (#87)

I resent all of these........even when the small sub catagory is feeling the brunt of it. You seem to feel that the small sub catagory is okie dokie, as long as you aren't a participant.

Are you kidding me? Don't you understand? I am a part of it and so are you and we've been a part of it for a long time. I resent it every time I pay sales tax because it further enables a Marxist gov't in Sacramento to fatten bureaucracy and dream up bigger and more wasteful social/welfare/educational programs. I resent it every time when I buy alcoholic beverages, knowing that fat lazy gubment douchebags are benefiting. You are talking about this online cigarette thingie like it is a turning point issue, a line in the sand, that is going to lead to more gubment interference, regulation, and control of consumer goods. Hello. Where have you been hiding? "It" has already happened and "it" happened many years ago and "it" affected all consumers not just smokers who now can't buy cigarettes online. Good grief. See things in proper perspective, why don't you.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   13:33:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: SonOfLiberty (#92)

Bzzt, wrong. If I stayed in a hotel, I voluntarily agreed that the price was acceptable to me. If I found the price burdensome or unfair, I would find another hotel, or sleep in my car as a last resort. Nobody made me do anything involuntarily.

You are twisting the argument.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:35:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: belmontconservative, SonOfLiberty, all (#89)

A. Not true.

It is only true in the limited sense that most group policies do not differentiate between members of the group but that the premiums are based upon actuarial tables relevant for the entire group.

The same argument could be made that:

Diabetics push your premiums up.

Drinkers push your premiums up.

B.Premiums are based on ACTUARIAL TABLES FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP in Group Policies

C.Government mandates push your premiums up (the biggest culprit).

A. Premium rates for groups are based upon the health medical forms submitted before the group is approved. There is a question on every application that ask if you smoke or not. Insurnace companies rate the group higher based upon people who mark the questions yes. Smoking (like diabetes due to obesity and higher rates) leads to high blood pressure, cancers, various breathing conditions etc.

Renewal rates are primarily based upon the claims of the group from the prior year. So yes, smoking leads to higher rates for the group as a whole when there are smokers that also have HBP, etc.

B. Insurnace companies have a base rate but primarily base their HEALTH INSURANCE rates on the medical quest. submitted. 2 identical companies with the same age/demographics can have widly different premiums due to the health of the group. I just submitted a group with a dependent child with downs syndrome and 2 other serious conditions. The family rate was $1800 per month with the baby and $1100 per month without the baby being covered.

C. Gov't mandates are not the biggest culprit for the high rates. Not even in the top 5 reasons. Gov mandates only affect a few parts of health insurnace policies-mainly some mental health issues, preventive care dealing with physicals, mammograms etc. oh and let's not forget the insurance companies are now required to pay for a least a 48 hour stay after childbirth..something all the hospitals and doc's were for as it was proven most issues are gping to happen with a baby in the first 24 hours of the birth.

Again you resort to a Strawman Argument.

Yes different groups receive different rates. However, you avoided the primary point that it is based on Actuarial Tables relevant to the entire group.

Neither did you acknowledge the fact of choice.

Instead you avoid the larger issue by committing the "fallacy of division" and asserting that what is true for one is true for all when that is demonstrably false.

Certainly there are factors which affect the group rate and as you proved by your example smoking is neither the only nor the largest.

So, you would surrender your liberty and that of your fellows for a few shekels.

Well done.

Logically your argument is no different than "I think is a great idea" BUT "NIMBY".

As well while denying it you acknowledge the affect of mandates on costs. Logically known as a "non sequitur" (Latin for "does not follow").

Many of the special coverages and requirements in group policies are there because of government mandates.

Even the tax preference for employer provided health insurance is a preference established in law. Up until a few years ago self insurers received no tax break while the corporate break was 100%. It is better now - the self employed get to deduct 60%. So, do not try to make the false argument that government mandates have no impact. It is not true and if you are as knowlegable as you claim you should already know it is not true.

There are a myriad of other factors established by government as well - not the least of which is the monopoly, granted in law, to the AMA, and its approved practicioners and which excludes Naturopaths etc., from having the same rights and priveleges as the legally preferred class.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:38:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: belmontconservative (#93)

And as I pointed out smoking is not the only risk factor which increases premiums for a GROUP.

Your health insurance premiums are higher due to smokers.

OI: Not true.

You have contradicted yourself.

No, you selectively quoted me so as to create that impression. My point is made clear if one reads the full argument.

More accurate is that it is not the only factor, nor likely the largest, and is one which provides insurance companies with an excuse to increase premiums.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:41:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: belmontconservative (#95)

You are twisting the argument.

Nope. I'm adhereing to strict logic. You wish to claim involuntary, but then you are using scenarios that involve a fully voluntary transaction to try and bolster your claim. Ergo, your claims do not stand up to even casual scrutiny. There is no twisting required, as frankly, you yourself are supplying the very scenarios which clearly demonstrate voluntary actions.

It's ok to cede an argument to an opponent. There is no dishonor in that, at all, even on the internet. I've done it before, it doesn't hurt.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:53:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: scrapper2, abraxas, RickyJ, palo verde, farmfriend, SonOfLiberty, Lod, phantom patriot, all (#94)

You are talking about this online cigarette thingie like it is a turning point issue, a line in the sand, that is going to lead to more gubment interference, regulation, and control of consumer goods.

"First they came for the communists but I was not a communist ..."

The principle which you keep avoiding is that small incursions upon someone else's liberty is ultimately a threat to your own liberty - it is just that it is an issue that does not, at this moment in time, directly have an impact on you.

That you consistently fail to see the larger point does not make it invalid it simply means that you fail to see the larger principle involved i.e., that a threat to anyone's liberty is a threat to all, and that an injustice committed against one ripples throughout a society affecting all.

When you single out one group for special discrimination you have created a social divide and a class upon which it is "OK" to prey.

That you are unable to see the larger principle does not render it nonexistent.

So, which other groups do you feel it is acceptable to deprive of their liberties?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   14:03:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: Original_Intent (#99)

That you are unable to see the larger principle does not render it nonexistent. That you consistently fail to see the larger point does not make it invalid it simply means that you fail to see the larger principle involved i.e., that a threat to anyone's liberty is a threat to all, and that an injustice committed against one ripples throughout a society affecting all.

When you single out one group for special discrimination you have created a social divide and a class upon which it is "OK" to prey.

What I have consistently said - which you avoid acknowledging - is that the horse as left through the open barn door years ago and no one, not you and not me, did anything at the time to protest. All consumers - not just smokers being singled out - have been and continue to be victimized by gov't empowering themselves to collect sales taxes and sin taxes.

To accuse me of being a selfish self-serving person is rather hypocritical, OI, in light of the fact that you are a smoker, who is describing an issue of convenience and $ that benefits yourself as one of liberty and freedom for all of us. Where were you when counties in California arbitrarily raised sales taxes on goods to make those rates the highest in the nation? And where were you when the California state franchise board announced that it was instructing all employers to impound 10% more of with holding tax? Oh yes, you don't live in California so no outrage from OI, the one who claims a gument slash against one class of citizen is a cut against all American citizens. Rigggght. You certainly walk your talk, I see, OI.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   14:37:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Original_Intent (#41)

It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not trust the mainstream media to report on political issues will nevertheless take their reportage on other issues as gospel - never accounting for the fact that their reportage is heavily influenced by large advertisers (they are in the advertising not news business) such as BIG PHARMA and BIG FOOD.

Yep. In my experience with thousands of smokers in a clinical setting ... it has been those smokers who were also hard drinkers coupled with bad or negligent eating habits who suffered negative effects the most. That population also suffered through several Rheumatic fever epidemics something researchers rarely acknowledge or even inquired about. It's strange when doing histories how docs rarely ask a patients if they or their family were ever quarantined during childhood.

My great uncle an old apple farmer who walked five miles round trip to and from town (he had a tremor acquired from WWI so couldn't drive) smoked cigars everyday with his half bottle of Rose' until he was 85 too and died 2 months short of his 99th BDay still on his feet unaided by a cane.

mininggold  posted on  2009-11-05   14:37:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: scrapper2 (#86)

That you are protesting this one single issue of arbitrary gov't powers under the guise of it being an attack on all our liberty [ one cut, one step] whereas it's really a personal self-serving matter that you want rectified - I'm guessing you or a loved one smoke? - because you have not previously protested the idea of gubment empowering themselves to impose and increase sales taxes on consumer goods willy nilly at their pleasure.

Ok now I see what you are saying. Well yes I am against sin taxes to start with. And I'm against increasing any taxes to continue to rip off the citizens. Everyone knows they have got to trim back or you and I won't be bothered much. But, what will happen to the following generations?

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Original_Intent (#88)

While they have a chemically different formula they affect the same receptor cells in the brain and thus produce virtually identical affects.

thank you for the info.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:44:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Original_Intent (#99)

The principle which you keep avoiding is that small incursions upon someone else's liberty is ultimately a threat to your own liberty - it is just that it is an issue that does not, at this moment in time, directly have an impact on you.

BUMP!!

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:50:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: scrapper2 (#100)

What I have consistently said - which you avoid acknowledging - is that the horse as left through the open barn door years ago and no one, not you and not me, did anything at the time to protest. All consumers - not just smokers being singled out - have been and continue to be victimized by gov't empowering themselves to collect sales taxes and sin taxes.

You're right scrapper2. Our frusteration goes much deeper. But they aren't talking about tax here. They are talking about limiting choice.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:53:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: phantom patriot (#105)

They are talking about limiting choice.

Your choice is not being limited - you said yourself you will likely be able to buy the same brands at a store.

The convenience of online shopping is being curtailed not choice.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   14:57:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: mininggold (#101)

It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not trust the mainstream media to report on political issues will nevertheless take their reportage on other issues as gospel - never accounting for the fact that their reportage is heavily influenced by large advertisers (they are in the advertising not news business) such as BIG PHARMA and BIG FOOD.

Yep. In my experience with thousands of smokers in a clinical setting ... it has been those smokers who were also hard drinkers coupled with bad or negligent eating habits who suffered negative effects the most. That population also suffered through several Rheumatic fever epidemics something researchers rarely acknowledge or even inquired about. It's strange when doing histories how docs rarely ask a patients if they or their family were ever quarantined during childhood.

My great uncle an old apple farmer who walked five miles round trip to and from town (he had a tremor acquired from WWI so couldn't drive) smoked cigars everyday with his half bottle of Rose' until he was 85 too and died 2 months short of his 99th BDay still on his feet unaided by a cane.

Cool about your Great Uncle. My gramps was the same and I noted a common thread - they both walked a lot. Mine would walk about 5 miles a day either to the cardroom to squeeze "walkin' around money" out of the other geezers (well into his 90's) or 5 miles down to the dock to putter around on his boat. Never used a cane a day in his life. Although he preferred 4 Roses to Rose', but just 4 fingers every now and then - I don't think I ever saw him drunk. ;-)

Thanks for the clinical reference - it squares with what I have read and learned.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   15:00:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: scrapper2, phantom patriot (#106)

They are talking about limiting choice.

Your choice is not being limited - you said yourself you will likely be able to buy the same brands at a store.

The convenience of online shopping is being curtailed not choice.

And you are still ignoring and avoiding my point - the tobaccos I smoke are not available at the convenience store. They are available at only a very few tobacconists.

As well you ignore and disregard the principle of liberty that includes freedom of choice and freedom from government tyranny inched forward one petty tyranny at a time. To which you remain completely oblivious.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   15:04:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: scrapper2 (#106)

Your choice is not being limited - you said yourself you will likely be able to buy the same brands at a store.

That was a sarcastic comment. I do not expect that will be the case.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   15:07:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Original_Intent, mininggold (#107)

My gramps was the same and I noted a common thread - they both walked a lot.

mine too. he was never a cigarette smoker though. his sins were cigars and pipes.

christine  posted on  2009-11-05   15:08:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: christine (#110)

mine too. he was never a cigarette smoker though. his sins were cigars and pipes.

Mine was a drinker. It was a great pleasure to sit with him in the bar he bought in retirement and buy each other drinks. Had his gold digging wife (after my grandmother died) not killed him with what I suspect was poison to grab his bank account, he and I would still be buying each other drinks today. :(

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   15:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Original_Intent (#108)

As well you ignore and disregard the principle of liberty that includes freedom of choice and freedom from government tyranny inched forward one petty tyranny at a time. To which you remain completely oblivious.

Yes. scrapper2 misinterpreted my sarcasm.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   15:11:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Original_Intent (#108)

They are available at only a very few tobacconists.

And how many of those do you see anymore. They've run them out with their PC BS.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   15:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Original_Intent (#108)

To which you remain completely oblivious.

I could say - in fact, I have said - the same about you. Ha!

It appears that neither one of us is listening to or understanding what the other one is saying.

You see me as blind and selfish on this issue and I see you in the same light.

I doubt you and I are going to reconcile our difference of opinion on this matter. Howver, it's one issue of disagreement out of countless thousands of issues we agree on. So I'm bogging off to another thread before we get into violent fisticuffs with one another on this thread.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   15:16:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: scrapper2 (#94)

You are talking about this online cigarette thingie like it is a turning point issue, a line in the sand, that is going to lead to more gubment interference, regulation, and control of consumer goods. Hello. Where have you been hiding?

No, I'm not. I'm speaking of this issue as a further incursion that should not be acceptable or tolerated. You, on the other hand, tolerate this because it is a "sub group" that you are not a part of.....so that makes it okay according to you, whereas I say ENOUGH enfringement for all.

You resent the alcohol tax because you purchase alcohol. But that too is unfairly taxed because so many people said, "I don't drink so go ahead and tax the crap out of THEM. It doesn't concern ME" and this is the crux of the issue. The more you pick and chose when it's okay and when it is not, based on your own personal consumption, the more the lot of us have our freedoms and liberties infringed upon.

Just because it has happened in the past doesn't mean we should all just continue to let it happen because it happens to be a group we are not a part of this time around.

I would say the same thing to you.....see things in proper perspective. To cherry pick who should be unfairly taxed and deprived of free market consumption, threatens the lot of us. If you allow MORE gubmint interference, regulation and control of consumer goods for one sub group, then expect more for the lot of us.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   17:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: scrapper2 (#58)

The Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act were grave assaults on liberty and freedom that all of us here recognized as such. But this matter is from my view a matter of inconvenience and saving sales tax $. In no way does this matter compare to the Patriot Act or Military Commissions Act. Now if you said that gubment arbitrarily imposing sales tax on consumer items to generate income was an assault on on our liberty, I'd be with you but you are not saying that. In fact, you and others here as per generations before you have accepted sales taxes as gubment's right to generate income [to waste on useless programs]. To be selective in your outrage re: sales taxes doesn't fly with me. You fret about the small cut, but you have accepted the big gouge.

You are making assumptions a lot of assumptions on what I believe and don't believe.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this matter.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

The purpose of the legal system is to protect the elites from the wrath of those they plunder.- Elliott Jackalope

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2009-11-05   18:10:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: phantom patriot (#113) (Edited)

They are available at only a very few tobacconists.

And how many of those do you see anymore. They've run them out with their PC BS.

Most have been put out of business by wave after wave of draconian tax increases. Oregon, which already had some of the higher tobacco taxes, added, at the same time the SCHIP tax fraud went into place, an additional 23.25 per pound tax increase and about a buck a pack on factory smokes. So, in the space of a week the tax on a pound of tobacco went up about 47 dollars per pound. Most small tobacconists, those that had survived the earlier increases, simply went bust. At a time when the economy is downtrending and people have less available to spend in the first place they are adding increases which are beyond confiscatory. A pound of tobacco for which the farmer gets 2 dollars now retails for about 70 dollars and most of that is tax. I was able to save a few bucks by going mail order but the scumbags want to close that off because the tyrannical government wants to ensure the slaves pay every penny of tax they can extort. And the toadies to tyranny repeat the same refrain "it don't affect me".

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   19:22:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Original_Intent (#117)

Most have been put out of business by wave after wave of draconian tax increases.

No one forced them to sell tobacco, now, did they? :)

In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report.

Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject.

Dakmar  posted on  2009-11-05   19:25:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: Dakmar (#118)

It IS a legal product. However, those in government who have an insatiable desire to take other people's money to spend for their own pet projects know no restraint in the yoke which they would lay upon others. And usurious and tyrannical taxation is a form of slavery. You ARE a slave to the extent that unfettered and unrestrained government may be used to steal from you that which you have earned by your own labors. Taxation beyond what is required to run essential functions is tyranny. Exercise of governmental power to treat formerly free citizens as naught more than a slave whose labors may be extorted upon whim is tyranny. It can be put no simpler than that. Those who cannot see that are simply those who are born to the slave's manner.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   19:39:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Original_Intent (#119)

It IS a legal product.

I'm starting a band called Black Market Pancake League, you in?

In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report.

Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject.

Dakmar  posted on  2009-11-05   19:41:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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