[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Christopher Caldwell: How Immigration Is Erasing Whites, Christians, and the Middle Class

SSRI Connection? Another Trans Shooter, Another Massacre – And They Erased His Video

Something 1/2 THE SIZE of the SUN has Entered our Solar System, and We Have NO CLUE What it is...

Massive Property Tax Fraud Exposed - $5.1 Trillion Bond Scam Will Crash System

Israel Sold American Weapons to Azerbaijan to Kill Armenian Christians

Daily MEMES YouTube Hates | YouTube is Fighting ME all the Way | Making ME Remove Memes | Part 188

New fear unlocked while stuck in highway traffic - Indian truck driver on his phone smashes into

RFK Jr. says the largest tech companies will permit Americans to access their personal health data

I just researched this, and it’s true—MUST SEE!!

Savage invader is disturbed that English people exist in an area he thought had been conquered

Jackson Hole's Parting Advice: Accept Even More Migrants To Offset Demographic Collapse, Or Else

Ecuador Angered! China-built Massive Dam is Tofu-Dreg, Ecuador Demands $400 Million Compensation

UK economy on brink of collapse (Needs IMF Bailout)

How Red Light Unlocks Your Body’s Hidden Fat-Burning Switch

The Mar-a-Lago Accord Confirmed: Miran Brings Trump's Reset To The Fed ($8,000 Gold)

This taboo sex act could save your relationship, expert insists: ‘Catalyst for conversations’

LA Police Bust Burglary Crew Suspected In 92 Residential Heists

Top 10 Jobs AI is Going to Wipe Out

It’s REALLY Happening! The Australian Continent Is Drifting Towards Asia

Broken Germany Discovers BRUTAL Reality

Nuclear War, Trump's New $500 dollar note: Armstrong says gold is going much higher

Scientists unlock 30-year mystery: Rare micronutrient holds key to brain health and cancer defense

City of Fort Wayne proposing changes to food, alcohol requirements for Riverfront Liquor Licenses

Cash Jordan: Migrant MOB BLOCKS Whitehouse… Demands ‘11 Million Illegals’ Stay

Not much going on that I can find today

In Britain, they are secretly preparing for mass deaths

These Are The Best And Worst Countries For Work (US Last Place)-Life Balance

These Are The World's Most Powerful Cars

Doctor: Trump has 6 to 8 Months TO LIVE?!

Whatever Happened to Robert E. Lee's 7 Children


Resistance
See other Resistance Articles

Title: URGENT Save on-line cigarettes, Call your Senator Now
Source: CD2U
URL Source: http://www.cd2u.org/email.html
Published: Nov 4, 2009
Author: CD2U
Post Date: 2009-11-04 12:17:04 by palo verde
Keywords: None
Views: 1222
Comments: 120

By making all cigarettes nonmailable, the Senate is ensuring you will no longer be able to purchase these products by mail-order, telephone order, or over the Internet because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers, will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you.

*** URGENT - PLEASE CALL BEFORE THURSDAY ***

*** The US Senate committee will be voting this week ***

Your Senators will be voting shortly to make ALL TOBACCO PRODUCTS NON-MAILABLE!!!

WE NEED YOUR HELP TO TELL YOUR SENATORS NOT TO PASS THIS BILL !!!

(This has ALREADY BEEN PASSED in the House of Representatives !!!)

Please contact BOTH your Senators by phone, email, or regular mail.
(We have provided all of their contact information below.)

(You do NOT have to identify yourself as a smoker.)

HOW TO CONTACT YOUR SENATORS:

TELEPHONE: You can directly dial your Senators office using the number shown for them below, or you can dial 1-800-828-0498 (this is a toll-free number) to be connected with a Capitol Switchboard Operator. Simply ask the Operator to connect you with your Senators Office.

Time is crucial at this point, so a phone call is by far the best choice for contacting your Senators.

EMAIL: Simply go to each of your two Senators websites shown above and find the Senators contact form. Fill in the required information, type your message and click the "Send" button.

REGULAR MAIL: Send a letter to your Senator at their LOCAL offices nearest you. You can find the addresses for local offices on the Senators' websites or by looking in your telephone book's government section. It is important that you send your letter to your Senators' local office since mail often takes months to reach a Senator's Washington, DC office due to increased security at the Capitol.

EVERY TELEPHONE CALL, EMAIL AND LETTER MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

YOUR SENATORS NEED TO HEAR FROM YOU ON THIS IMPORTANT ISSUE!

THE SITUATION: Right now there is legislation pending in the United States Senate - the Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009 ("PACT Act") (S.1147) which contains, among other bad ideas, a provision to make ALL cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products nonmailable. This legislation has already been passed by the House of Representatives and is currently in a Senate Committee that could send it to the Senate floor at any time for a vote!

WHAT THIS MEANS TO YOU: By making all cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products nonmailable, the Senate is ensuring you will no longer be able to purchase these products by mail-order, telephone order, or over the Internet because the United States Postal Service, along with UPS, Fed-Ex and all other carriers, will be prohibited by law from delivering your orders to you. Taking away your options means forcing you back to buying over-priced tobacco products from your local retailer once again.

WHY WE NEED YOUR HELP: Native American cigarette and tobacco sellers are committed to doing everything we can to stop the PACT Act, but we need your help. Your Senators work for you and as their constituents, it is your voice and your vote that counts!

WHAT YOU CAN DO: Contact your Senators and tell them not to pass the PACT Act. Your Senators should be protecting your interests, but it is up to you to let them know what you think about the PACT Act. There are three easy ways to contact your Senators - by telephone, email, or regular mail - all of which are explained below. Every state has two Senators - please remember to contact BOTH Senators for your state. At this point time is crucial, so a phone call is by far the best means to use.

YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPRESS YOUR OPINION: As an American Citizen, it is your right to let your Senators know how you feel about any action Congress takes. You elected your Senators to represent you and they can only do this if you tell them what you want. When you contact your Senator you do not need to identify yourself as a smoker or as someone who purchases cigarettes and/or smokeless tobacco products by mail-order, telephone-order, and/or the Internet. You only need to identify yourself as a resident of the state they represent.

SOME CONCERNS ABOUT THE PACT ACT TO DISCUSS WITH YOUR SENATORS:

THE POSTAL SERVICE: The price of stamps is being raised practically every year. The PACT Act will take an entire class of legal, non-hazardous goods and make them nonmailable. What this means is a huge loss of business (potentially hundreds of millions of dollars) for the Postal Service. Will they continue to raise the price of stamps and other mail services to compensate for their lost income? The United States Postal Service is already suffering a fiscal crisis due to the downturn in the economy. If the PACT Act is passed and millions of dollars of revenue are taken away, there could be serious consequences for consumers, including reducing the number of delivery days from 6 per week down to 5 or perhaps only 4 days per week.

COST: When the PACT Act of 2003 (S.1177) passed the Senate, the Congressional Budget Office prepared a Cost Estimate for the Bill. The Congressional Budget Office estimated that the PACT Act of 2003 would cost about $140 MILLION over the 2004-2008 period to enforce. $140 Million over four years - and that estimate is already six years old. How much will the PACT Act of 2009 cost to enforce? Isn't there a better way to spend our tax dollars?

IMPORTANT THINGS TO REMEMBER WHEN COMMUNICATING WITH YOUR SENATORS:

1. Tell your Senators that you are one of their constituents and provide an address so they know where in the state you are from. Since anyone can contact a Senator, it is important that you let your Senators know that you live and vote in their home state. Because the Senators receive so much mail, mail from their constituents always takes priority.

2. Make it clear to your Senators that you DO NOT want them to pass the PACT Act of 2009 (S.1147). Let your Senators know that if they don't support you - you won't support them.

3. This bill presents undue hardship to many smokers who are older, and shut-in with limited mobility. It is unfair to prevent them from ordering tobacco products through home delivery.

4. This bill represents discriminatory pricing as the majority of smokers are lower-income, many on a fixed income. It is discriminatory to force them to pay higher prices.

5. This bill represents discriminatory taxation as smokers were forced to pay an additional increase of more than $7 a carton in new federal taxes earlier this year.

6. This bill represents unlawful double-taxation as Internet and mail-order retailers are already collecting and paying federal and state excise taxes in the state where the tobacco is purchased.

7. This bill represents discriminatory restriction of trade towards smokers as all other lawful products can be purchased through the mail-order and through the Internet. Let your Senators know that if they don't support you - you won't support them.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Comments (1-75) not displayed.
      .
      .
      .

#76. To: Original_Intent (#74)

And, the biggest cost of all on health care/insurance, people who live very long lives. They just suck the industry dry.

It's fun to throw the argument back at'em from time to time ain't it? :)

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   12:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: SonOfLiberty (#70)

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

Where is it mandated that I'm forced to have health insurance, or am forced to participate in one health insurance program over another by law?

Nope, not a law to have health insurnace. But I pointed out that if you are on a groups health insurnace plan you are paying for the smokers on th eplan via higher premiums.

Sounds like you have no health insurancee. If you have a $500k claim are you ready to pay for it or are your going to walk away and have the hospital write it off as a loss...and then charge me higher rates?

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:58:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: SonOfLiberty (#75)

Show me where I'm forced to stay at a Hotel (or Motel) by law.

You have never stayed in a hotel or motel???

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   12:59:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: scrapper2 (#67)

List for me all the dates of protest events you attended, the letters you wrote to Congress, your continued battle over the years against gubment's arbitrary power to impose sales taxes on all consumer items. Thank you.

What does that have to do with my post?

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   13:00:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: belmontconservative (#77)

Nope, not a law to have health insurnace.

Then my statement stands, and my point is validated.

It's been a fun discussion. Thanks for participation.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:00:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: phantom patriot (#71)

which promotes the use of drugs like Ritalin

Years ago they put my son on that crap. He looked like a zombie. I took him off because then I still could. I don't about now.

Your experience parallels that of many others I have heard and read.

According to Dr. Fred Baughman the only significant difference between Ritalin and Methamphetamine is that Ritalin produces big profits for Big Pharma.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:02:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: belmontconservative (#78) (Edited)

You have never stayed in a hotel or motel???

Show me where I'm forced to do so by law.

This answer should end up the same as the one regarding insurance.

Ergo, I'm not "forced" to pay any costs, I choose where my money goes and am quite capable of choosing not to participate where I feel the burden is too great.

Seems a much better solution, to me, than getting on the government bandwagon.

Seriously this was the easiest thread debate I've ever been in. Thanks for being a part of it. :)

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:02:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Original_Intent (#74)

Excellent points!

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   13:07:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Original_Intent (#81)

According to Dr. Fred Baughman the only significant difference between Ritalin and Methamphetamine is that Ritalin produces big profits for Big Pharma.

I did not know this. But his behavior while taking it did match the crash at the end.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   13:10:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: belmontconservative, SonOfLiberty, all (#77)

You didn't answer my question. Please answer my question.

Where is it mandated that I'm forced to have health insurance, or am forced to participate in one health insurance program over another by law?

Nope, not a law to have health insurnace. But I pointed out that if you are on a groups health insurnace plan you are paying for the smokers on th eplan via higher premiums.

Sounds like you have no health insurancee. If you have a $500k claim are you ready to pay for it or are your going to walk away and have the hospital write it off as a loss...and then charge me higher rates?

And as I pointed out smoking is not the only risk factor which increases premiums for a GROUP.

Do you advocate executing diabetics or depriving them of their liberty because it increases YOUR premiums?

Have you ever advocated special punishment for people whom you perceive as overweight because they increase YOUR insurance premiums?

People who eat an unhealthy diet regardless of weight?

Have you ever taken action to look for a policy which which is lower for non-smokers?

If you wish to live in a slave state may I commend China or North Korea for your list of hospitable societies?

Your argument is a Strawman based upon your personal prejudices and accumulated misinformation.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:12:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: phantom patriot (#79)

What does that have to do with my post?

That you are protesting this one single issue of arbitrary gov't powers under the guise of it being an attack on all our liberty [ one cut, one step] whereas it's really a personal self-serving matter that you want rectified - I'm guessing you or a loved one smoke? - because you have not previously protested the idea of gubment empowering themselves to impose and increase sales taxes on consumer goods willy nilly at their pleasure.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   13:13:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: scrapper2 (#65)

I resent the whole idea of sales taxes being arbitrarily imposed by government on all of us. I resent the whole idea of income taxes being collected by government, period, and particularly so when they are "graduated" and continually increasing. But you seem to resent gubment taxes only when a small sub-category catches your interest to trumpet about.

I resent all of these........even when the small sub catagory is feeling the brunt of it. You seem to feel that the small sub catagory is okie dokie, as long as you aren't a participant.

For most of my life, I've lived where NO sales tax is pushed on the people. When I began working more I shifted from no sales tax to no state income tax to pay. I've battled every tax increase, even after I became a parent and the kiddies need school. I adamently opposed no smoking mandates in bars and restaurants because an OWNER should determine this NOT the goobermint or nanny staters. Of course all the non smokers said "goodie!! Mandate them!! It's for the greater good." The stupid issued passed because of this notion that it only impacts some people in some ways and we need to think of the greater good. Rubish!!

This isn't a miniscule issue because it is a foot in the door to more and more and more and more nanny state. IMHO, apathy over assaults on small sub catagories has led to the larger laviathon goobermint and taxed to death situation we all face now.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   13:14:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: phantom patriot (#84)

According to Dr. Fred Baughman the only significant difference between Ritalin and Methamphetamine is that Ritalin produces big profits for Big Pharma.

I did not know this. But his behavior while taking it did match the crash at the end.

While they have a chemically different formula they affect the same receptor cells in the brain and thus produce virtually identical affects.

Dr. Baughman has a website located at: ADD and ADHD Fraud. Find out the truth about ADD and ADHD ...

Also of interest a father's account at: Death from Ritalin the Truth Behind ADHD.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:20:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Original_Intent (#74)

A. Not true.

It is only true in the limited sense that most group policies do not differentiate between members of the group but that the premiums are based upon actuarial tables relevant for the entire group.

The same argument could be made that:

Diabetics push your premiums up.

Drinkers push your premiums up.

B.Premiums are based on ACTUARIAL TABLES FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP in Group Policies

C.Government mandates push your premiums up (the biggest culprit).

A. Premium rates for groups are based upon the health medical forms submitted before the group is approved. There is a question on every application that ask if you smoke or not. Insurnace companies rate the group higher based upon people who mark the questions yes. Smoking (like diabetes due to obesity and higher rates) leads to high blood pressure, cancers, various breathing conditions etc.

Renewal rates are primarily based upon the claims of the group from the prior year. So yes, smoking leads to higher rates for the group as a whole when there are smokers that also have HBP, etc.

B. Insurnace companies have a base rate but primarily base their HEALTH INSURANCE rates on the medical quest. submitted. 2 identical companies with the same age/demographics can have widly different premiums due to the health of the group. I just submitted a group with a dependent child with downs syndrome and 2 other serious conditions. The family rate was $1800 per month with the baby and $1100 per month without the baby being covered.

C. Gov't mandates are not the biggest culprit for the high rates. Not even in the top 5 reasons. Gov mandates only affect a few parts of health insurnace policies-mainly some mental health issues, preventive care dealing with physicals, mammograms etc. oh and let's not forget the insurance companies are now required to pay for a least a 48 hour stay after childbirth..something all the hospitals and doc's were for as it was proven most issues are gping to happen with a baby in the first 24 hours of the birth.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:21:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: abraxas, scrapper2, all (#87)

It's for the greater good." The stupid issued passed because of this notion that it only impacts some people in some ways and we need to think of the greater good. Rubish!!

"From each according to his ability to each according to his needs." ~ Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels - "The Communist Manifesto"

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:23:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: SonOfLiberty (#82)

You have never stayed in a hotel or motel??? Show me where I'm forced to do so by law.

You never did answer my question(s). Have you ever stayed in a motel or hotel? If you did you involuntarily paid a higher room rate due to smokers in the room.

If you are on a group health insurnace plan your employer and possibly you (if your employer makes you pay a portion of the premium)are paying a higher rate due to smokers. If the answer is yes you are involuntaily paying higher rates due to smokers.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:28:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: belmontconservative (#91)

You never did answer my question(s). Have you ever stayed in a motel or hotel? If you did you involuntarily paid a higher room rate due to smokers in the room.

Bzzt, wrong. If I stayed in a hotel, I voluntarily agreed that the price was acceptable to me. If I found the price burdensome or unfair, I would find another hotel, or sleep in my car as a last resort. Nobody made me do anything involuntarily.

Sorry dude, you're looking for victimhood where none exists.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:30:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Original_Intent (#85)

And as I pointed out smoking is not the only risk factor which increases premiums for a GROUP.

Your health insurance premiums are higher due to smokers.

OI: Not true.

You have contradicted yourself.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:32:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: abraxas (#87)

I resent all of these........even when the small sub catagory is feeling the brunt of it. You seem to feel that the small sub catagory is okie dokie, as long as you aren't a participant.

Are you kidding me? Don't you understand? I am a part of it and so are you and we've been a part of it for a long time. I resent it every time I pay sales tax because it further enables a Marxist gov't in Sacramento to fatten bureaucracy and dream up bigger and more wasteful social/welfare/educational programs. I resent it every time when I buy alcoholic beverages, knowing that fat lazy gubment douchebags are benefiting. You are talking about this online cigarette thingie like it is a turning point issue, a line in the sand, that is going to lead to more gubment interference, regulation, and control of consumer goods. Hello. Where have you been hiding? "It" has already happened and "it" happened many years ago and "it" affected all consumers not just smokers who now can't buy cigarettes online. Good grief. See things in proper perspective, why don't you.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   13:33:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: SonOfLiberty (#92)

Bzzt, wrong. If I stayed in a hotel, I voluntarily agreed that the price was acceptable to me. If I found the price burdensome or unfair, I would find another hotel, or sleep in my car as a last resort. Nobody made me do anything involuntarily.

You are twisting the argument.

belmontconservative  posted on  2009-11-05   13:35:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: belmontconservative, SonOfLiberty, all (#89)

A. Not true.

It is only true in the limited sense that most group policies do not differentiate between members of the group but that the premiums are based upon actuarial tables relevant for the entire group.

The same argument could be made that:

Diabetics push your premiums up.

Drinkers push your premiums up.

B.Premiums are based on ACTUARIAL TABLES FOR THE ENTIRE GROUP in Group Policies

C.Government mandates push your premiums up (the biggest culprit).

A. Premium rates for groups are based upon the health medical forms submitted before the group is approved. There is a question on every application that ask if you smoke or not. Insurnace companies rate the group higher based upon people who mark the questions yes. Smoking (like diabetes due to obesity and higher rates) leads to high blood pressure, cancers, various breathing conditions etc.

Renewal rates are primarily based upon the claims of the group from the prior year. So yes, smoking leads to higher rates for the group as a whole when there are smokers that also have HBP, etc.

B. Insurnace companies have a base rate but primarily base their HEALTH INSURANCE rates on the medical quest. submitted. 2 identical companies with the same age/demographics can have widly different premiums due to the health of the group. I just submitted a group with a dependent child with downs syndrome and 2 other serious conditions. The family rate was $1800 per month with the baby and $1100 per month without the baby being covered.

C. Gov't mandates are not the biggest culprit for the high rates. Not even in the top 5 reasons. Gov mandates only affect a few parts of health insurnace policies-mainly some mental health issues, preventive care dealing with physicals, mammograms etc. oh and let's not forget the insurance companies are now required to pay for a least a 48 hour stay after childbirth..something all the hospitals and doc's were for as it was proven most issues are gping to happen with a baby in the first 24 hours of the birth.

Again you resort to a Strawman Argument.

Yes different groups receive different rates. However, you avoided the primary point that it is based on Actuarial Tables relevant to the entire group.

Neither did you acknowledge the fact of choice.

Instead you avoid the larger issue by committing the "fallacy of division" and asserting that what is true for one is true for all when that is demonstrably false.

Certainly there are factors which affect the group rate and as you proved by your example smoking is neither the only nor the largest.

So, you would surrender your liberty and that of your fellows for a few shekels.

Well done.

Logically your argument is no different than "I think is a great idea" BUT "NIMBY".

As well while denying it you acknowledge the affect of mandates on costs. Logically known as a "non sequitur" (Latin for "does not follow").

Many of the special coverages and requirements in group policies are there because of government mandates.

Even the tax preference for employer provided health insurance is a preference established in law. Up until a few years ago self insurers received no tax break while the corporate break was 100%. It is better now - the self employed get to deduct 60%. So, do not try to make the false argument that government mandates have no impact. It is not true and if you are as knowlegable as you claim you should already know it is not true.

There are a myriad of other factors established by government as well - not the least of which is the monopoly, granted in law, to the AMA, and its approved practicioners and which excludes Naturopaths etc., from having the same rights and priveleges as the legally preferred class.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:38:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: belmontconservative (#93)

And as I pointed out smoking is not the only risk factor which increases premiums for a GROUP.

Your health insurance premiums are higher due to smokers.

OI: Not true.

You have contradicted yourself.

No, you selectively quoted me so as to create that impression. My point is made clear if one reads the full argument.

More accurate is that it is not the only factor, nor likely the largest, and is one which provides insurance companies with an excuse to increase premiums.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   13:41:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: belmontconservative (#95)

You are twisting the argument.

Nope. I'm adhereing to strict logic. You wish to claim involuntary, but then you are using scenarios that involve a fully voluntary transaction to try and bolster your claim. Ergo, your claims do not stand up to even casual scrutiny. There is no twisting required, as frankly, you yourself are supplying the very scenarios which clearly demonstrate voluntary actions.

It's ok to cede an argument to an opponent. There is no dishonor in that, at all, even on the internet. I've done it before, it doesn't hurt.

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   13:53:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: scrapper2, abraxas, RickyJ, palo verde, farmfriend, SonOfLiberty, Lod, phantom patriot, all (#94)

You are talking about this online cigarette thingie like it is a turning point issue, a line in the sand, that is going to lead to more gubment interference, regulation, and control of consumer goods.

"First they came for the communists but I was not a communist ..."

The principle which you keep avoiding is that small incursions upon someone else's liberty is ultimately a threat to your own liberty - it is just that it is an issue that does not, at this moment in time, directly have an impact on you.

That you consistently fail to see the larger point does not make it invalid it simply means that you fail to see the larger principle involved i.e., that a threat to anyone's liberty is a threat to all, and that an injustice committed against one ripples throughout a society affecting all.

When you single out one group for special discrimination you have created a social divide and a class upon which it is "OK" to prey.

That you are unable to see the larger principle does not render it nonexistent.

So, which other groups do you feel it is acceptable to deprive of their liberties?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   14:03:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: Original_Intent (#99)

That you are unable to see the larger principle does not render it nonexistent. That you consistently fail to see the larger point does not make it invalid it simply means that you fail to see the larger principle involved i.e., that a threat to anyone's liberty is a threat to all, and that an injustice committed against one ripples throughout a society affecting all.

When you single out one group for special discrimination you have created a social divide and a class upon which it is "OK" to prey.

What I have consistently said - which you avoid acknowledging - is that the horse as left through the open barn door years ago and no one, not you and not me, did anything at the time to protest. All consumers - not just smokers being singled out - have been and continue to be victimized by gov't empowering themselves to collect sales taxes and sin taxes.

To accuse me of being a selfish self-serving person is rather hypocritical, OI, in light of the fact that you are a smoker, who is describing an issue of convenience and $ that benefits yourself as one of liberty and freedom for all of us. Where were you when counties in California arbitrarily raised sales taxes on goods to make those rates the highest in the nation? And where were you when the California state franchise board announced that it was instructing all employers to impound 10% more of with holding tax? Oh yes, you don't live in California so no outrage from OI, the one who claims a gument slash against one class of citizen is a cut against all American citizens. Rigggght. You certainly walk your talk, I see, OI.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   14:37:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Original_Intent (#41)

It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not trust the mainstream media to report on political issues will nevertheless take their reportage on other issues as gospel - never accounting for the fact that their reportage is heavily influenced by large advertisers (they are in the advertising not news business) such as BIG PHARMA and BIG FOOD.

Yep. In my experience with thousands of smokers in a clinical setting ... it has been those smokers who were also hard drinkers coupled with bad or negligent eating habits who suffered negative effects the most. That population also suffered through several Rheumatic fever epidemics something researchers rarely acknowledge or even inquired about. It's strange when doing histories how docs rarely ask a patients if they or their family were ever quarantined during childhood.

My great uncle an old apple farmer who walked five miles round trip to and from town (he had a tremor acquired from WWI so couldn't drive) smoked cigars everyday with his half bottle of Rose' until he was 85 too and died 2 months short of his 99th BDay still on his feet unaided by a cane.

mininggold  posted on  2009-11-05   14:37:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: scrapper2 (#86)

That you are protesting this one single issue of arbitrary gov't powers under the guise of it being an attack on all our liberty [ one cut, one step] whereas it's really a personal self-serving matter that you want rectified - I'm guessing you or a loved one smoke? - because you have not previously protested the idea of gubment empowering themselves to impose and increase sales taxes on consumer goods willy nilly at their pleasure.

Ok now I see what you are saying. Well yes I am against sin taxes to start with. And I'm against increasing any taxes to continue to rip off the citizens. Everyone knows they have got to trim back or you and I won't be bothered much. But, what will happen to the following generations?

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Original_Intent (#88)

While they have a chemically different formula they affect the same receptor cells in the brain and thus produce virtually identical affects.

thank you for the info.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:44:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Original_Intent (#99)

The principle which you keep avoiding is that small incursions upon someone else's liberty is ultimately a threat to your own liberty - it is just that it is an issue that does not, at this moment in time, directly have an impact on you.

BUMP!!

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:50:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: scrapper2 (#100)

What I have consistently said - which you avoid acknowledging - is that the horse as left through the open barn door years ago and no one, not you and not me, did anything at the time to protest. All consumers - not just smokers being singled out - have been and continue to be victimized by gov't empowering themselves to collect sales taxes and sin taxes.

You're right scrapper2. Our frusteration goes much deeper. But they aren't talking about tax here. They are talking about limiting choice.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   14:53:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: phantom patriot (#105)

They are talking about limiting choice.

Your choice is not being limited - you said yourself you will likely be able to buy the same brands at a store.

The convenience of online shopping is being curtailed not choice.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   14:57:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: mininggold (#101)

It never ceases to amaze me that people who do not trust the mainstream media to report on political issues will nevertheless take their reportage on other issues as gospel - never accounting for the fact that their reportage is heavily influenced by large advertisers (they are in the advertising not news business) such as BIG PHARMA and BIG FOOD.

Yep. In my experience with thousands of smokers in a clinical setting ... it has been those smokers who were also hard drinkers coupled with bad or negligent eating habits who suffered negative effects the most. That population also suffered through several Rheumatic fever epidemics something researchers rarely acknowledge or even inquired about. It's strange when doing histories how docs rarely ask a patients if they or their family were ever quarantined during childhood.

My great uncle an old apple farmer who walked five miles round trip to and from town (he had a tremor acquired from WWI so couldn't drive) smoked cigars everyday with his half bottle of Rose' until he was 85 too and died 2 months short of his 99th BDay still on his feet unaided by a cane.

Cool about your Great Uncle. My gramps was the same and I noted a common thread - they both walked a lot. Mine would walk about 5 miles a day either to the cardroom to squeeze "walkin' around money" out of the other geezers (well into his 90's) or 5 miles down to the dock to putter around on his boat. Never used a cane a day in his life. Although he preferred 4 Roses to Rose', but just 4 fingers every now and then - I don't think I ever saw him drunk. ;-)

Thanks for the clinical reference - it squares with what I have read and learned.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   15:00:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: scrapper2, phantom patriot (#106)

They are talking about limiting choice.

Your choice is not being limited - you said yourself you will likely be able to buy the same brands at a store.

The convenience of online shopping is being curtailed not choice.

And you are still ignoring and avoiding my point - the tobaccos I smoke are not available at the convenience store. They are available at only a very few tobacconists.

As well you ignore and disregard the principle of liberty that includes freedom of choice and freedom from government tyranny inched forward one petty tyranny at a time. To which you remain completely oblivious.

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-11-05   15:04:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: scrapper2 (#106)

Your choice is not being limited - you said yourself you will likely be able to buy the same brands at a store.

That was a sarcastic comment. I do not expect that will be the case.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   15:07:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Original_Intent, mininggold (#107)

My gramps was the same and I noted a common thread - they both walked a lot.

mine too. he was never a cigarette smoker though. his sins were cigars and pipes.

christine  posted on  2009-11-05   15:08:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: christine (#110)

mine too. he was never a cigarette smoker though. his sins were cigars and pipes.

Mine was a drinker. It was a great pleasure to sit with him in the bar he bought in retirement and buy each other drinks. Had his gold digging wife (after my grandmother died) not killed him with what I suspect was poison to grab his bank account, he and I would still be buying each other drinks today. :(

MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2009-11-05   15:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Original_Intent (#108)

As well you ignore and disregard the principle of liberty that includes freedom of choice and freedom from government tyranny inched forward one petty tyranny at a time. To which you remain completely oblivious.

Yes. scrapper2 misinterpreted my sarcasm.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   15:11:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Original_Intent (#108)

They are available at only a very few tobacconists.

And how many of those do you see anymore. They've run them out with their PC BS.

"What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that its people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms....The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson

phantom patriot  posted on  2009-11-05   15:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Original_Intent (#108)

To which you remain completely oblivious.

I could say - in fact, I have said - the same about you. Ha!

It appears that neither one of us is listening to or understanding what the other one is saying.

You see me as blind and selfish on this issue and I see you in the same light.

I doubt you and I are going to reconcile our difference of opinion on this matter. Howver, it's one issue of disagreement out of countless thousands of issues we agree on. So I'm bogging off to another thread before we get into violent fisticuffs with one another on this thread.

scrapper2  posted on  2009-11-05   15:16:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: scrapper2 (#94)

You are talking about this online cigarette thingie like it is a turning point issue, a line in the sand, that is going to lead to more gubment interference, regulation, and control of consumer goods. Hello. Where have you been hiding?

No, I'm not. I'm speaking of this issue as a further incursion that should not be acceptable or tolerated. You, on the other hand, tolerate this because it is a "sub group" that you are not a part of.....so that makes it okay according to you, whereas I say ENOUGH enfringement for all.

You resent the alcohol tax because you purchase alcohol. But that too is unfairly taxed because so many people said, "I don't drink so go ahead and tax the crap out of THEM. It doesn't concern ME" and this is the crux of the issue. The more you pick and chose when it's okay and when it is not, based on your own personal consumption, the more the lot of us have our freedoms and liberties infringed upon.

Just because it has happened in the past doesn't mean we should all just continue to let it happen because it happens to be a group we are not a part of this time around.

I would say the same thing to you.....see things in proper perspective. To cherry pick who should be unfairly taxed and deprived of free market consumption, threatens the lot of us. If you allow MORE gubmint interference, regulation and control of consumer goods for one sub group, then expect more for the lot of us.

abraxas  posted on  2009-11-05   17:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



      .
      .
      .

Comments (116 - 120) not displayed.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]