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Title: Afghan Insurgents Learn to Destroy Key US Armored Vehicle
Source: McClatchy News
URL Source: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/336/story/78443.html
Published: Nov 5, 2009
Author: Jonathan S. Landay
Post Date: 2009-12-30 00:38:23 by AGAviator
Keywords: None
Views: 330
Comments: 29

Afghan insurgents learn to destroy key U.S. armored vehicle

By Jonathan S. Landay | McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON — Taliban-led insurgents in Afghanistan have devised ways to cripple and even destroy the expensive armored vehicles that offer U.S. forces the best protection against roadside bombs by using increasingly large explosive charges and rocket-propelled grenades, according to U.S. soldiers and defense officials.

At least eight American troops have been killed this year in attacks on so-called Mine-Resistant Ambush-Protected vehicles, or MRAPs, and 40 more have been wounded, said a senior U.S. military official who, like others interviewed on the issue, declined to be further identified because of the issue's sensitivity.

The insurgents' success in attacking the hulking machines, which can cost as much as $1 million each, underscores their ability to counter the advanced hardware that the U.S. military and its allies are deploying in their struggle to gain the upper hand in the war, which entered its ninth year last month.

The attacks also raise questions about how vulnerable a new, lighter MRAP, the M-ATV, which is now being shipped to Afghanistan, are to the massive explosive charges that Taliban-led insurgents have been using against its bigger cousin.

The insurgents are also hitting MRAPs with rocket-propelled grenades that can penetrate their steel armor, according to U.S troops in Afghanistan, several of whom showed McClatchy a photograph of a hole that one of the projectiles had punched in the hull of an MRAP.

The Pentagon has spent more than $26.8 billion to develop and build three versions of the largest MRAPs, totaling some 16,000 vehicles, mostly for the Army and Marine Corps, according to an August report by the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service.

Another $5.4 billion is being spent to produce 5,244 M-ATVs, the smaller version that U.S. defense officials contend offers as much protection as the large models do, but is more maneuverable and better suited to Afghanistan's dirt tracks and narrow mountain roads.

"The traditional MRAP was having real problems . . . off road in Afghanistan," said Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell. "And clearly we have to do a lot of work off-road. And these new vehicles will provide our forces the ability to travel more safely off road — certainly off paved roads — than they would have been able to do with other vehicles."

Defense officials acknowledged the growing problem of successful attacks on MRAPs, and said the U.S. military is constantly developing improvements for the vehicle that include better sensors and tactics.

"It's not all about the armor. We can't build something that is impervious to everything," said Navy Capt. Jack Henzlik, a spokesman for the U.S. Central Command, which oversees operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. "We are using a comprehensive strategy to try to provide for the protection of our forces."

The issue was the subject of a high-level meeting convened on Wednesday by Defense Secretary Robert Gates, who made the production of MRAPs his highest priority in 2007 as U.S. troops in Iraq were suffering massive casualties from roadside bomb attacks.

The use of powerful explosive charges against MRAPs "is a problem that he (Gates) is keenly aware of, very concerned about, and is determined to make sure this building is doing everything it can to combat," Morrell said. "We have never advertised MRAPs or M-ATVs as a silver bullet for the IED (improvised explosive device) problem. This is but one element of a vast array of capabilities that we need to bring to bear to protect our forces."

However, retired Army Col. Douglas A. MacGregor, a former armored cavalry commander and combat veteran and an expert on armor warfare, said that vehicles such as the MRAP have "very limited utility" in a war against a guerrilla group such as the Taliban.

"The notion of a wheeled armored constabulary force as a prescription for a close combat situation is nonsense," he said.

U.S. troops rely on the MRAP's V-shaped hull, which is designed to deflect explosive blasts, and heavy armored plating to protect them against the landmines and IEDs that are causing most American combat deaths in Afghanistan.

October was the deadliest month for U.S. troops since the 2001 U.S. invasion. At least 59 were killed, bringing the total for the year to at least 272 dead, according to the Internet site iCasualties. At least 139 of those troops died in IED blasts, according to the Pentagon.

"Pentagon officials note that insurgents are building larger IEDs and are finding better ways to conceal them," the Congressional Research Service report said.

"The biggest question is what took them so long," said a senior Pentagon official with extensive experience with the MRAP program and familiarity with the weapons and techniques that the militants in Afghanistan have developed to "compromise" the vehicle.

The fact that the large MRAPs — which range from 7 tons to 24 tons depending on the model — often are confined to narrow mountain roads and valleys in Afghanistan has made it easier for insurgents to prepare ambushes using anti-tank mines, IEDs or rocket-propelled grenades capable of penetrating armor, the official said.

U.S. defense officials insisted that many more U.S. troops would be killed and injured in Afghanistan and in Iraq if they'd been equipped with vehicles other than MRAPs.

"KIA (killed in action) rates in particular are noticeably reduced in MRAPs," said Irene Smith, a spokeswoman for the Joint Improvised Explosive Device Defeat Organization, the Pentagon agency created to develop defenses against roadside bombs.

U.S. defense officials in Washington and Kabul declined to reveal the number of MRAPs that have been crippled or destroyed since the first vehicles were deployed in Afghanistan in 2003, saying they didn't want to provide the Taliban with information on the effectiveness of their tactics.

McClatchy is voluntarily withholding some U.S. soldiers' descriptions of insurgent tactics out of concern that they may not be known by all of those fighting U.S.-led forces.

The soldiers spoke out of what they said was a heightened concern about the vehicles' vulnerability to ambushes, especially on mountain roads where there's no room for the vehicles to turn around.

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#1. To: sneakypete, liberator (#0)

The biggest question is what took them so long," said a senior Pentagon official with extensive experience with the MRAP program and familiarity with the weapons and techniques that the militants in Afghanistan have developed to "compromise" the vehicle.

War's not as much fun when the other fellow learns how to fight back, is it?

We can't build something that is impervious to everything," said Navy Capt. Jack Henzlik, a spokesman for the U.S. Central Command, which oversees operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. "We are using a comprehensive strategy to try to provide for the protection of our forces."

In those parts, the "comprehensive strategy" is called baksheesh.

AGAviator  posted on  2009-12-30   0:47:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: AGAviator (#0)

At least eight American troops have been killed this year in attacks on so-called Mine-Resistant Ambush-Protected vehicles, or MRAPs, and 40 more have been wounded

There's that number again. 40.

Better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2009-12-30   1:19:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#2)

I thought it was "30", but the same principle applies - the official out of your ass rounded off low ball number.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-12-30   1:32:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: AGAviator (#0)

Taliban-led insurgents in Afghanistan have devised ways to cripple and even destroy the expensive armored vehicles that offer U.S. forces the best protection against roadside bombs

Folks Folks - not to worry --- by the fourth year of the Yemen War - this anomaly will have cleared up.

your_neighbor  posted on  2009-12-30   5:19:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: your_neighbor (#4)

Folks Folks - not to worry --- by the fourth year of the Yemen War - this anomaly will have cleared up.

America is becoming a sad nation of fearful people scared to piss of their government. This shouldn't be the case. People should be as mad as hell and "leaders" should be looking for the nearest exit about now. This is definitely not the same nation that took on the British over some silly taxes. We have no representation now but have more taxes than the colonists could even imagine. And our OWN DAMN government is doing this to us, not a foreign power.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2009-12-30   6:07:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: AGAviator (#1)

The road to democracy is sometimes filled with very large bombs....and the Caissons go rolling along...

Jethro Tull  posted on  2009-12-30   6:17:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: your_neighbor, all (#4)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2009-12-30   11:28:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: AGAviator (#1)

U.S. defense officials insisted that many more U.S. troops would be killed and injured in Afghanistan and in Iraq if they'd been equipped with vehicles other than MRAPs.

He's right about this. I have seen photos of a modern main battle tank turned over on it's side after being flipped from running over a buried 155mm or 175mm artillery shell. There is no such thing as a vehicle being 100% safe. Especially not when the insurgents are shooting at them from above using AP rocket rounds imported from China and Russia. The rag heads ain't building their own tungsten-tipped rocket rounds.

In those parts, the "comprehensive strategy" is called baksheesh.

"Those parts"??? That's a universal language understood and spoken all over the world. It overpowers racial and cultural differences,and even religious differences cease to matter when the language of cash payoffs is being spoken.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-12-31   9:27:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Jethro Tull (#6)

The road to democracy is sometimes filled with very large bombs....and the Caissons go rolling along...

Well stated!

I'm STILL waiting for some prominent politician or teebee talking head to explain to me WHY we are so hot to "establish democracy" in 3rd world shitholes,when we don't even have or want democracy here.

Then again,I have no doubts whatsoever that at least half of the people in the House of Representatives think we are a democracy.

The entire US Senate seems to think the country is nothing more than a private corporation ran for their benefit,and they are the Board of Governors.

sneakypete  posted on  2009-12-31   9:34:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: sneakypete (#9)

The entire US Senate seems to think the country is nothing more than a private corporation ran for their benefit,and they are the Board of Governors.

Spoken like a real American.

Cynicom  posted on  2009-12-31   9:49:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: sneakypete, TommytheMadArtist (#8)

The rag heads ain't building their own tungsten-tipped rocket rounds.

Actually they probably are.

There's a place on the Afghan/Pak border named Darra Adam Khel, where there have been several generations of gunsmiths and weapons makers who take great pride being able to replicate any weapon in the world.

Even religious differences cease to matter when the language of cash payoffs is being spoken.

What this is boiling down to is that "moderate Taliban" will accept the money, while "al Qaeda Taliban" will not.

However once they accept the money they may not always feel bound to behave in the way expected.

The CIA agents who were killed two days ago had invited their attacker onto their base and believed he was going to lead them to Haqqani, who is America's current evil Muslim boogeyman.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-01   5:56:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: sneakypete (#8)

Another factor to consider is the more that Americans hide behind their million- dollar vehicles and pilotless drones, the more contempt they will earn from the people there especially with the civilian casualties they almost never admit to causing.

I think fairly soon there will be a tipping point where the majority of the Pashtun population will not be willing to cooperate with the US in any way, shape, or form.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-01   6:06:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: AGAviator (#11)

There's a place on the Afghan/Pak border named Darra Adam Khel, where there have been several generations of gunsmiths and weapons makers who take great pride being able to replicate any weapon in the world.

I know,and generally speaking,they have a reputation of doing a pretty good job.

Or they did prior to the late 1950's,anyhow. After that point the Soviets were handing out modern full-auto weapons like door prizes to anybody that wanted one,and the need to "roll your own" ceased to exist. I suspect the skill and capability level there has deteriorated considerably since that time.

Having said that,I seriously doubt they have the capability of machining tungsten or depleted uranium,even if they can get them. They made and earned their reputation primarily from building SMLE's and muskets,and even then they weren't up to the quality of the ones made in the modern armories of the west. What they were,was good enough to shoot a few shots from ambush so that the shooter could take a REAL SMLE or other weapon from the body of a British soldier and then be properly armed with a rifle that could hit a human sized target out beyond 100 yards without it being a accidental shooting.

Which is really all that was required from their homespun arms industry. A musket can get you a machine gun if you are lucky and the right situation presents itself.

Building modern firearms and armor-piercing rocket rounds requires more sophistication that foot-powered mills and lathes.

Even religious differences cease to matter when the language of cash payoffs is being spoken.

Truer words have never been uttered by you,me,or anyone else.

However once they accept the money they may not always feel bound to behave in the way expected.

There is nothing new about that,either. People whose loyalty can be bought can be bought again by anybody willing to outbid the original buyer.

And that is and always has been the hallmark of the Afghans. ANYBODY with the proper money can bribe a tribal chief to have his people fight for him,but he and his tribe will switch sides right in the middle of a fight if the enemy offers to pay them more to fight for them,or if it looks like they are on the losing side. These people have no concept of loyalty beyond the tribal level.

The CIA agents who were killed two days ago had invited their attacker onto their base and believed he was going to lead them to Haqqani,

Which is proof of their incompetence and the incompetence of our own system,thanks to idiotic crap like Affirmative Action. You can be sure there were CIA agents on the ground who KNEW better than to allow a foreigner they didn't TOTALLY own into their compound,and they knew better than to allow a un-owned suspect to be in the presence of a "boss" unless they have been strip-searched in advance and are under restraints.

I'm willing to bet they even understood the COLOSSAL stupidity of presenting a western female as a boss to a fundie Muslim radical,and expecting him to change sides and help you instead of seeing it as a slap in his face. I have no doubt that at least one of them didn't step forward and suggest she sit quietly in the background or even better,in another room with a camera,and watch the proceedings while a senior male agent played the role of the boss. I have even less doubt that he was slapped down for being a backwards male chauvinist for not accepting this was the 21st century and that women could do anything men can do.

Yet their experience running Muslim agents in the real Muslim world instead of only inside their own heads counted for nothing because a "mother of three" was the Station Chief,and their boss and she gave the orders to allow it to happen because she wanted to cover herself with glory during her short tour in order to advance her career into a desk job at Langley.

I KNOW I am going to get flamed for saying it,but I'm glad she died. Stupidity and arrogance SHOULD be properly rewarded. I'm only sorry that the retards that thought it was a good idea to place a woman station Chief in Afghanistan weren't right there holding hands with her during her "Kumbyu moment" and reached enlightenment at the same instant as her.

I'm just sorry others under her command had to die with her.

The good news is that she was killed before she could get promoted higher up the ladder where she would have been responsible for even more deaths.

Idiots like her and the whole PC crowd think they live in a world where things are going to be the way they want them to be,simply because they want them to be that way because that would be "fair". They have the good judgement of the typical 8 year old and have never advanced beyond that level to the point where they can understand that life itself isn't fair and that you can't legislate human nature. There are mean,selfish,greedy,evil people out there,and they ain't that way because their mamas didn't hug them enough when they were children or they didn't get straight A's in school for merely having a pulse. They were born to be evil and they enjoy being evil.

Our only real weakness in the middle east is that we foolishly allow amateurs who are products of affirmative action to run the operations there because we place political correctness ahead of competence,and even the desire to win.

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-01   11:08:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: AGAviator (#12)

Another factor to consider is the more that Americans hide behind their million- dollar vehicles and pilotless drones, the more contempt they will earn from the people there especially with the civilian casualties they almost never admit to causing.

That has to be one of the lamest complaints I have ever heard. That,more than anything else you have ever written leads me to believe you really ARE a idiot PC westerner who is probably a teenager.

What,you prefer they charge each other with lances from horseback,while the fair maidens swoon along the sidelines? After properly matching the opponents in size and strength,of course.

Why not just have Oprah over there with Doctor Phil to sit everybody down so they can talk about their feelings and resolve their differences around a marshmallow roast with group hugs?

What difference does it make if your enemy has contempt for you? You're not there to marry his sister,you are there to kill the SOB. "Fair" has nothing to do with it. Winning and surviving are everything.

"Fair" fighting a war! It boggles the imagination! You must have lived a very sheltered life.

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-01   11:18:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: sneakypete (#14) (Edited)

Another factor to consider is the more that Americans hide behind their million- dollar vehicles and pilotless drones, the more contempt they will earn from the people there especially with the civilian casualties they almost never admit to causing.

What difference does it make if your enemy has contempt for you? You're not there to marry his sister,you are there to kill the SOB. "Fair" has nothing to do with it. Winning and surviving are everything.

"Fair" fighting a war! It boggles the imagination! You must have lived a very sheltered life.

That has to be one of the lamest complaints I have ever heard.

As usual, I'm 3 steps ahead of you. It's very clear you never were college material.

As an intensely-disliked foreigner trying to run a country, you either need to

(A) Install your own people as administrators in key executive positions, or

(B) Recruit toadies from the local population to do your dirty work.

Pursuing Option (A) will lead to very high attrition rates among your own people. And no, you can't run a country or even a village giving orders from your "office" in an MRAP.

Pursuing Option (B) requires at least a small minority capable of inspiring respect and obedience from the population that you, the intensely-disliked foreigner, are trying to control.

Since America has already backed away from Option A, the only remaining option is B.

However, it is becoming quite clear there are little or no takers for that option, and the few that appear willing, may in fact kill you at their first opportunity - as the 8 high-ranking CIA people found out this last week.

Now since I understand you're a little slow on the uptake, I'm going to bring you up to speed on how logistics ("military supplies") move through Pakistan and in Afghanistan.

Ih a word: Bribery. Including and especially including bribing the Taliban.

Every stretch of road - and there are tens of thousands of miles of road - has potential ambushers. And fuel tankers for all those mine-resistant gas hogs make especially tempting targets.

A recent Congressional study concluded that once bribes to pay the Taliban not to attack are included with all the other costs, a gallon of fuel costs several hundred dollars delivered.

And the more disliked you are, the higher those costs are going to be, and the fewer locations the bean counters and pencil-pushers in logistics will be willing to subsidize.

So, like Ivan in the 1980's, the US will be limited to hunkering down in a few enclaves, protected by air power round the clock, and people everywhere else doing whatever they damn well please. Yeah, maybe they can increase the drone attacks - until someone offs the puppet Karzai and his enablers in Kabul. Then you'll have a civil war from one end of the country to the other, just like in the early 90's, with 'Murikan people caught right in the middle.

And naturally, the prices of buying support will get one hell of a lot higher. Until it gets so high that a few years down the road, the decision-makers conclude that the costs outweigh the benefits - the same decision about this region that's been coming down for millenia.

Paying people not to attack you is not winning a war, sport. And that's how the game is being played these days - just like in Iraq.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-01   14:26:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: sneakypete (#13)

I KNOW I am going to get flamed for saying it,but I'm glad she died.

Not on this site.

Here you're a free man. You're not on the reservation any more.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-01   14:29:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: AGAviator (#15)

As usual, I'm 3 steps ahead of you. It's very clear you never were college material.

LOL!

Now since I understand you're a little slow on the uptake,

Thank you ever so much! Weezewuns what ain't coluge material preciate yore help. specially thoze ob uz that went to the Special Warfare School.

Now since I understand you're a little slow on the uptake, I'm going to bring you up to speed on how logistics ("military supplies") move through Pakistan and in Afghanistan.

Ih a word: Bribery. Including and especially including bribing the Taliban.

REALLY? You're not putting me on,are you? WOW! I would have never suspected THAT! Thank you ever so much!

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-01   20:34:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: AGAviator (#16)

I KNOW I am going to get flamed for saying it,but I'm glad she died.

Not on this site.

Here you're a free man. You're not on the reservation any more.

LOL! This is probably your first post to me where you DON'T try to flame me.

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-01   20:34:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: sneakypete (#17)

REALLY? You're not putting me on,are you? WOW! I would have never suspected THAT! Thank you ever so much!

Learn something new every day, eh Pete? Just amazing what you can find out on the internet (and some of it is even true).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-01-01   20:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: James Deffenbach (#19)

Learn something new every day, eh Pete? Just amazing what you can find out on the internet

Yup.

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-01   21:07:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: sneakypete (#18)

This is probably your first post to me where you DON'T try to flame me.

I normally try to start out civilly, however when people like yourself start with your pet names you have for Mooslums, I feel free to reply in kind.

From:AGAviator to:sneakypete

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-01   22:23:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: sneakypete, James Deffenbach (#17)

Weezewuns what ain't coluge material preciate yore help. specially thoze ob uz that went to the Special Warfare School.

Now since I understand you're a little slow on the uptake, I'm going to bring you up to speed on how logistics ("military supplies") move through Pakistan and in Afghanistan.

Ih a word: Bribery. Including and especially including bribing the Taliban.

REALLY? You're not putting me on,are you? WOW! I would have never suspected THAT! Thank you ever so much!

They taught you to bribe your enemy in the Special Warfare School?

Regardless, you're the one alleging that when you fight a war it doesn't matter if your enemy likes you or not.

I'm saying that when you're trying to bribe your enemy not to attack you, it certainly does. At the very least it raises the price, and may also have other unintended consequences like the old "Pretend to Be Ready for a Bribe to Set Up an Ambush" trick.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-01   22:30:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: AGAviator, all (#0)

As Richard Pryor observed years and years ago, That Nigger's Crazy.

Prescient observation, my man, so very prescient.

Lod  posted on  2010-01-01   22:41:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: AGAviator (#22)

Regardless, you're the one alleging that when you fight a war it doesn't matter if your enemy likes you or not.

Yeah,but it's only me and every other human being that has ever gone off to war that thinks that,so don't let it throw you.

I'm saying that when you're trying to bribe your enemy not to attack you, it certainly does.

And even then you are wrong.

First off,if they like you,they don't go to war against you.

Secondly,if they aren't attacking you because you are paying them not to attack you,it makes no difference if they like you or not because the money they are paid keeps them from attacking you.

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-01   23:47:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: sneakypete (#24) (Edited)

You're the one alleging that when you fight a war it doesn't matter if your enemy likes you or not.

It's only me and every other human being that has ever gone off to war that thinks that, so don't let it throw you.

Throughtout history there have been different degrees of enmity between people fighting wars.

In some wars there has been mutual respect between combatants, while in others there was "no quarter asked or given."

Secondly,if they aren't attacking you because you are paying them not to attack you,it makes no difference if they like you or not because the money they are paid keeps them from attacking you.

If they don't like you it will take more money, more frequently, and always with the possibility they will look like they're ready to make a deal and then attack.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-02   12:40:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: sneakypete (#14)

surviving are everything.

There.

Doing what's right isn't always easy but it's always right.

noone222  posted on  2010-01-02   13:00:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: AGAviator (#25)

Throughtout history there have been different degrees of enmity between people fighting wars.

Name a war where both sides liked each other. You don't try to kill people you like.

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-02   13:50:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: sneakypete (#27)

Throughtout history there have been different degrees of enmity between people fighting wars.

Name a war where both sides liked each other.

I didn't say anybody liked each other, I said there are some conflicts where there's mutual respect and you have a decent chance of surviving if the other side gets you, and others where if you get captured you'd be better off dead.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-01-03   0:32:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: AGAviator (#28)

I said there are some conflicts where there's mutual respect and you have a decent chance of surviving if the other side gets you, and others where if you get captured you'd be better off dead.

No question about that.

sneakypete  posted on  2010-01-03   11:35:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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