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Title: Facts conveniently brushed over by the global warming fanatics
Source:
SMH.com
URL Source: http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit ... ng-fanatics-20100131-n6fr.html
Published: Feb 1, 2010
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-01-31 12:23:41 by buckeroo
Keywords: None
Views: 2836
Comments: 115
Here are 10 anti-commandments, 10 selected facts about global warming which have been largely ignored amid the orthodoxies to which we are subjected every day. All these anti-commandments are either true or backed by scientific opinion. All can also be hotly contested. 1. The pin-up species of global warming, the polar bear, is increasing in number, not decreasing. 2. The US President, Barack Obama, supports building nuclear power plants. Last week, in his State of the Union address, he said: ''To create more of these clean energy jobs, we need more production, more efficiency, more incentives. And that means building a new generation of safe, clean nuclear power plants in this country.'' 3. The Copenhagen climate conference descended into farce. The low point of the gridlock and posturing at Copenhagen came with the appearance by the socialist dictator of Venezuela, President Hugo Chavez, whose anti-capitalist diatribe drew a cheering ovation from thousands of left-wing ideologues. 4. The reputation of the chief United Nations scientist on global warming is in disrepair. Dr Rajendra Pachauri, the chairman of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), is being investigated for financial irregularities, conflicts of interest and scientific distortion. He has already admitted publishing false data. 5. The supposed scientific consensus of the IPCC has been challenged by numerous distinguished scientists. 6. The politicisation of science leads to a heavy price being paid in poor countries. After Western environmentalists succeeded in banning or suppressing the use of the pesticide DDT, the rate of death by malaria rose into the millions. Some scholars estimate the death toll at 20 million or more, most of them children. 7. The biofuels industry has exacerbated world hunger. Diverting huge amounts of grain crops (as distinct from sugar cane) to biofuels has contributed to a rise in world food prices, felt acutely in the poorest nations. 8. The Kyoto Protocol has proved meaningless. Global carbon emissions are significantly higher today than they were when the Kyoto Protocol was introduced. 9. The United Nations global carbon emissions reduction target is a massively costly mirage. 10. Kevin Rudd's political bluff on emissions trading has been exposed. The Prime Minister intimated he would go to the people in an early election if his carbon emissions trading legislation was rejected. He won't. The electorate has shifted. None of these anti-commandments question the salient negative link between humanity and the environment: that we are an omnivorous, rapacious species which has done enormous damage to the world's environment. Nor do they question the warming of the planet. What they do question is the morphing of science with ideology, the most pernicious byproduct of the global warming debate. All these anti-commandments were brought into focus this past week by the visit of the Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, better known as Lord Christopher Monckton, journalist by trade, mathematician by training, provocateur by inclination. Last Wednesday a conference room at the Sheraton on the Park was filled to overflowing, all 800 seats sold with a standing-room only crowd at the back, to see the Sydney public appearance of Monckton, a former science adviser to Margaret Thatcher. At the end of his presentation he received a sustained standing ovation. Monckton is the embodiment of English aristocratic eccentricity. His presentations are a combination of stand-up comedy, evangelical preaching and fierce debating. Almost every argument he makes can be contested, but given the enormity of the multi-trillion-dollars that governments expect taxpayers to expend on combating global warming, the process needs to be subject to brutal interrogation, scrutiny and scepticism. And Monckton was brutal, especially about the media, referring to ''all this bed-wetting stuff on the ABC and the BBC''. There has also been a monumental political failure surrounding the global warming debate. Those who would have to pay for most of the massive government expenditures proposed, the taxpayers of the West, are beginning to go into open revolt at the prospect. Last week the Herald reported that Monckton told a large lie while in Sydney. On Tuesday it reported: ''He said with a straight face on the Alan Jones radio program that he had been awarded the Nobel, a claim Jones did not question.'' The Herald repeated the accusation on Thursday. It was repeated a third time in a commentary in Saturday's Herald. In 2007 the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change shared the Nobel Peace Prize with the former US vice-president Al Gore. The prize committee, in citing its selection of the IPCC, said: ''Through the IPCC … thousands of scientists and officials from over 100 countries have collaborated to achieve greater certainty as to the scale of [global] warming.'' Thousands of people were thus collectively and anonymously part of the prize process. So what lie did Monckton tell about the prize? Despite the gravity of the accusation, the Herald never published the offending remark. Here, for the record, is what he actually said: Monckton: ''I found out on the day of publication of the 2007 [IPCC report] that they'd multiplied, by 10, the observed contribution to sea-level rise of the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheet. By 10! I got in touch with them and said, 'You will correct this.' And two days later, furtively, on the website, no publicity, they simply relabelled, recalculated and corrected the table they'd got wrong.'' Alan Jones: ''But this report won a Nobel Prize!'' Monckton: ''Yes. Exactly. And I am also a Nobel Prize winner because I made a correction. I'm part of the process that got the Nobel Prize. Do I deserve it? No. Do they deserve it? No. The thing is a joke.'' Poster Comment: Still global warming phenomena is an undeniable FACT!
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“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
And the FACT that Global average temperatures have declined for the last ten years proves that we have Glowbull Warming. "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Don't look to the SUN for any answers. Nope. It's not about that big ball of fire in the sky because humans are to blame. When are we going to get around to "hotly contesting" the SUN Buck? And, if that burning fire ball in the sky is to blame......what are you going to do about it?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
That isn't true. 1998 is the hottest year recorded since 1850 with mean temperature distributions around the globe; 2005 is the second. And out of this excessive heat, the Arctic is breaking up and glaciers are receding at rates that can be witnessed everywhere. You have to be careful in blinding yourself to truth about contemporary geophysics phenomena because of political parlay "double-speak." As opposed to denying scientific truth you should beg your Congress to disassociate with the UN because of their shenanigans.
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
Buck, that is such an insignificant amount of time in the scope of the life of this planet. Conveniently discounts ice ages and major temperature fluxations that occurred LONG BEFORE humans became industrialized. Volcanic eruptions have created much hotter time spans than this insignificant blip you are using as evidence to support your warming theory. Does the SUN have any impact on warming?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Exactly! That is the very point that I am addressing. Here is why: “I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
One data point, or even two, cherry picked out of a larger data set does not make a case. One can look at the historical climatological data and point at periods of time which were, on average, much warmer than our current era. Some of them before the accepted rise of mankind. Note the careful cut-off. 1850 marked the timeframe of the end of the "Little Ice Age" which was preceded by the Medieavel Warming Period - which on average was warmer than now. Hell, they were growing bloody grapes in England, and the expansion of the food supply resulted in staggering population growth which, with their unsanitary habits, set the scene for the Black Plague. Uh, Bucky? You can't "cherry pick" one or two data points out of an entire data set and then claim that proves anything. The very mildest thing that could be said about that is that it is intellectually dishonest.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Yeah ... you have a serious point there..... let us review the truth concerning scientific measurement: Sorry pal, but you lose. “I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
Is your worry global warming or over population? You do realize that one worry will take care of the other worry in time........if your theory is right. If over population is your biggest worry, then you should be happy about global warming and the pending doom and gloom for humankind. Do tell, how will a carbon tax and outlawing CO2 fix either problem? How will more idiotic gooberint regulation fix either problem? When has the goobermint EVER fixed anything? These are serious questions posed for your consideration. Oh, and I would still like to know what your plan is IF that big ball of fire in the sky is to blame for this global warming that has you so concerned.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Uh, Bucky? What happens at the end of an Ice Age? That is what climatological trend tells you that the ICE AGE has ended? Put the following two words into a complete sentence: Is the entire Tertiary a result of man-made Glowbull Warming?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
That convenient cut-off discounts consideration of ice ages OI. Only the last 150 years matter or shall be considered in this theory that completely discounts that big ball of fire in the sky.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Neat! Now be honest and show the rest of the graph to present time. Of course you won't because it destroys your case as it all trends down from the peak of the last warm trend. And as has been pointed out again, and again, and again, what happens to temperatures at the end of even a little ice age that tells you that the ice age is over? A show of hands please. Yes, Becky? Very good. The correct answer is they rise. That is what tells you the ice age is over.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I like this article and your comment didn't ruin it because I already knew your view. And still, although mankind's impact on the environment is undeniably bad, warming the earth a bit is one of the good things. It is also an undeniable fact that my house is too cold today despite full sunshine and running my wood stove.
Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
The problem I have with Buck's chart is that is starts at the end of the Dalton Minimum. As solar output increased I would expect temps to rise.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
That convenient cut-off discounts consideration of ice ages OI. Only the last 150 years matter or shall be considered in this theory that completely discounts that big ball of fire in the sky. I'm sorry, and am much chagrined. There I was trying to enter science into a religious discussion. My bad. ;-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I've been playing a bit over at Solar Cycle 24.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
The problem I have with Buck's chart is that is starts at the end of the Dalton Minimum. As solar output increased I would expect temps to rise. Of course. And that is what exposes the lie inherent in the Glowbull Warming hypothesis i.e., that to make the case data has to be carefully cut and pasted so as to avoid the full data set which then reveals that Glowbull Warming is Glowbull Bullshit.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Government, on any level, can not contain the ramifications already being witnessed. Do you place "hope" about government intervention? I don't. I believe the free markets shall decide our capabilities to overcome the problems the world faces. It is undeniable that the tremendous climb in human population growth has exacerbated current issues; famine, thirst, disease and government overthrow shall be the order of the day. And there isn't much that can be done about it.
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
Then why beat us up over it?
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
What does it matter? There have NEVER been 6.7Bn people before these inter-glacial periods. Maybe a few hundred thousand and plenty of natural resources.... but today, mankind faces tragedy, anguish and despair. There are too many people on the planet.
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
You think a political game is in motion as you take one side of the argument.
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
You both should admit that this is a hobby for you.
Nope. Our opinions are ALL worthy news sources BEYOND the cheap mass media that America has on TV. More than that, a little respect is thrown in ... thus ensuring that we can wake-up tomorrow with renewed capability to further make significant factual contributions about serious issues confronting all of us. As an example, these threads tell me to buy manufacturing stocks for suntan lotion and sunblock while Original_Intent buys into warm coats and thermo-underwear.
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
Yep. Global warming increases global cooling. LOL!
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. You didn't need these threads to tell you that.
And a man Al Gore would not debate on an open forum with television cameras for any amount of money. Al needs to STFU, or as Archie Bunker might say, he needs to stifle himself.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Yes, indeed, I do need these threads to suggest what I am saying. Do you think I read Jim Cramer that is on record that the housing downturn is over in May 2009? I watch EVERYTHING ... as my investment nickel ensures my families, friends and business continuous success.
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
Didn't AlGore publickly state that he invented the Internet? Do you really think I care about his poof-daddy remarcks?
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
Really? Name a few .. please place your ideas into bullet-item format with simplicity so that others can sense your personal viewpoints at a glance.
“I used to think, when I was younger and didn't know any better, that surely whoever was elected the next time would be better than the current president. But I learned a long time ago that it gets worse every (s)election, not better.” -- James Deffenbach, circa Jan. 2010
The biggest is cost savings, I live in Northern Virginia which is relatively mild, but I use $450 worth of wood in a season frugally (I cut about 1/3-1/2 of it). In contrast, I paid about $10 per month for A/C last July and less in June and August (my total electric bill is never over $35). Contrast that to a family nearby that just paid $700 for one month of electric heat with a relatively modern system. Here are some more items Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
Do tell, how will a carbon tax and outlawing CO2 fix either problem? How will more idiotic gooberint regulation fix either problem? When has the goobermint EVER fixed anything? These are serious questions posed for your consideration. Oh, and I would still like to know what your plan is IF that big ball of fire in the sky is to blame for this global warming that has you so concerned. Excellent post. The government doesn't "fix" things. Their job is, or seems to be, to make things worse.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Very true.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Yeah, something to that effect. But then I am fairly certain that isn't the first lie he ever told and I know for sure it wasn't the last one. This religious crusade he has been on for years now about "globaloney warming" is a big lie that he has repeated over and over.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Actually, we KNOW there is a political game in motion. A game that is lining Al Gore's pockets. Where does the SUN fit into this argument Buck?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Something tells me the real polluters and "unsustainable" consuming corporations are going to win either way. Now who's playing that game on us?
Similar to yourself, I have taken advantage of alternate methods of energy for my home. In my case I chose methods not relying on carbon dependence or known further CO2 gas release into the ambient environment; my home is totally solar powered via photo-voltaic cells; it has fully double paned glass with little comfort leakage conditions requiring purchased energy of any sort. My attic is embedded with attic fans so as to release the heat particularly during a HOT Summertime day in Southern California. I generate about 35KWhours a day on a South facing roof on 2300 foot home with no known carbon emissions. In California, I am now being paid for the excess abundance I accumulate; we have ample solar capability as the sunlight shines more than many other areas of the nation. Thank you for your observations concerning global warming. Your comments are encouraging to me; we need intelligence, such as yours to help change the world around us; and with that same compliment towards yourself, I want to challenge your earlier remarcks. So, here goes: There is plentiful fact about your point. But I want to remind you that photo-synthesis requires ample clean water to ensure the same; clean water around the globe is decreasing. And the hotter temperatures are creating diminished crop production because of further infestation of annoying insects. There is some truth (also) about great technological strides in chemical engineering for and about water-tolerant and insect resistant crops. So far, the measured abundance in recent times is about spindly plants not capable of the nutrients that mankind requires for dietary needs. And the cost per acre is going up and as a result the cost per nutient is going up to feed a worldwide increasing population base that is striping away at the environment. This is a common claim. It is unfounded as the natural environment is jam-packed with humans, all competitively achieving the demise of the same. Not true. The tundra is eroding. Bark Beetles are migrating Northward eliminating vast swaths of forests as the ambient temperatures are heating up. That may happen as Everyone's quality of life is diminished and the affordability for private and mass transit transportation methods creates very inexpensive alternative methods. You will have to explain this one. Not true at all. Global Warming phenomena is removing clean, natural water capabilities and capacity around the world. Why on Earth do you see more world-wide desalination techniques? Like what? Are you saying that a denser population group distribution creates additional personal liberties and freedoms? Please discuss this issue because you are diametrically opposed to the truth about this same perspective.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Thanks James. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I agree completely Deasy. All the sheeple line up for a fleecing. Notice how the polution and waste of energy committed on behalf of the collapsing empire never gets any mention. Wouldn't want the military industrial complex to suffer a profit loss to save the planet. Why don't the global warming alarmists ever mention that elephant in the debate? I can't believe that people don't catch on to the blatent omissions.....like the SUN. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
www.sciencebase.com/science-blog/burying-carbon-to-save-the-planet.html
the hotter temperatures are creating diminished crop production as a result the cost per nutient is going up to feed a worldwide increasing population unfounded as the natural environment is jam-packed with humans further infestation of annoying insects. Are you saying that a denser population group distribution creates additional personal liberties and freedoms? You won't have to worry about that when the oceans rise and So. Cal. goes underwater. Actually GMO crops are diminishing crop production around the world. Nutrients are decreased via GMO frankenseeds. The nutrients would return with small scale organic farming. Again, the insect infestations are increasing due to GMO crops that are chemical altered to deter both insects and weeds. It has been proven that the weeds and insects evolve and become more sturdy in response to attempt to annialate them. Again the problem is over population then, not global warming. Mother Earth has her own ways to curb the population problems and no amount of expensive intervention will stop her Buck. Invest in clean water, maybe the anti depressant market would be good to curb all the worries about global warming. You keep interchanging your worries about over population and global warming. If, in fact, your global warming theory is correct we can rest easy that the population of the planet will be culled, which may result in MORE personal liberties and freedoms for the lucky who survive. Either way, it's a win with a decrease in over population, right?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
They are intertwined factual concerns; so, you are correct. As a simple example, do you note that the US government continues to clamp down on personal liberties and freedoms while the population base is soaring? And this is true around the world.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
You are most welcome.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. It is only soaring because the goobermint refuses to address the illegal alien plight. Send them home and we will have instant population decrease along with massive tax savings. Win-win. The birth rates are decreasing for all ethnic groups in the US (not all over the world). What we have is an INCREASE in life expectancy. People aren't allowed to die like they used to Buck. The base would stop soaring if we could increase those death rates. I think Obama has a plan to decrease life expectancy and cull the numbers. Personally, I don't think that the decrease in personal liberties and freedoms is due to an increase in population. IMHO, it is due to an increase in apathy and ignorance.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
That is only one of the issues confronting Americans. You haven't addressed the continuing rape of our tax-payer dollars which is a MUCH larger issue: the goobermint as you call it, must limit natural resources through common distribution methods thus appeasing the greater masses.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
The two are interlinked. The illegals sucking off the taxpayer teat is just one of the many ways that We the People allow for a continually raping of our taxdollars. Globally, the empire is culling the masses on a regular basis Buck.....of course that requires a massive waste of resources too. Oh, and a massive waste of tax dollars.........but we allow it to go on year in and year out. Seriously, the goobermint MUST limit natural resources? Look at the track record on that one Buck. The goobermint has ENCOURAGED waste of natural resources throughout history, subsidizing massive waste to line corporate profits. Now, you want to trust them to "limit natural resources through common distribution methods"? Do you invite burglars to housesit when you take a vacation?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Yes. At one time the California Central Valley was the hallmarck of agricultural accomplishment for the world; it was popularly said, California feeds the World. Today, this isn't so. Why? Let me tell you why. The US government has limited the fresh water supply and this same action has reduced the Central Valley to a dust bowl. Ask farmfriend as she fully understands this issue. But, beyond the FACTS, why is government limiting natural resources? To be objective on these issues you must reflect about the under-currents within the natural resource capabilities America has at it's disposal. America's natural resource capabilities are stripped away.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Yes, and the theft is conducted by the government. So, why would you insist that the thieves and morons in DC, or even at the state level for that matter, be granted the responsibility to limit natural resources? They are already limiting water in the Central Valley.......do you like the results? How is that working for you? I can't fathom handing over more power to instutions with a track record of EPIC failure. These are the same people that allow for massive growth to line their pockets with campaign contributions from developers, ignoring natural resources such as water. These are the same morons that refuse to end the insanity of illegal immigration......no matter the loss of resources. Seriously, Buck, why would you want to give them more power to limit natural resources? Haven't they done enough damage?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
How much of the water Californian agribusinesses used came from their own aqua firs? I think when California's valleys were the bread baskets of the world, they were importing a lot of their water, and pulling it out of water tables that were being depleted by those actions.
I don't. I have NEVER encouraged any government to limit our respective individual rights, liberties and freedoms. I think I am on record to say this again and without rebuttal. The political ideas for and about controlling environmental issues are a joke. Governments, no matter the level and how well-intentioned NEVER have solutions.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Thanks Buck. You had me worried there for a minute. I can't tell when you are serious or joking sometimes. Maybe a little smiley face would help? : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Thank you for your clarity, your comment directly reflects the increasing diminished natural resources we ALL have or shall be capable to share.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
When corporations (and most farms are today) use water from diminishing water tables, or have water piped in, and then sell their products overseas, we all lose. We should be using our water for Americans and Americans only. Even when product goes to the benefit of Americans, farm concerns should be paying for the use of water tables and river sources that are diverted. Agribusiness is really banker farming anyway. The land was eaten up by small farms going out of business during the Dust Bowl years and corporatist land transfers.
I don't make fun of serious issues. Like yourself, some threads need to be viewed with a sense of respect about the world around us and maybe ... and by golly or good luck, we can find solutions; but leaving our lives to government for solutions? Please give me a sense of respect.... I do have a sense of dignity about myself, you know......
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Insects True, winter kills them and they generally like the warm weather, but adaptability is in our favor, not theirs. Your mention of the pine bark beetles means we have some work to do (harvest the pine and plant alternatives). A good analogy is the storm of 1962 which took down 15 billion board feet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day_Storm_of_1962) The pine bark beetle kills a few billion board feet at most. In 1962 we didn't throw up our hands, we did something: built roads and harvested the wood. spindly plants You are going to have to be more specific. There are numerous commercial greenhouses with double the normal CO2 getting thicker growth and 30-40% greater yields. the natural environment is jam-packed with humans Not a warming issue at all and not an argument against more fish and game. With less winter kill and more vegetation there will be more game. tundra is eroding Permafrost is melting, but tundra is not eroding more since the surface always thaws regardless of GW. If you are talking about along the Arctic Ocean, that's a small area and is manageable. Everyone's quality of life is diminished How? reduced risk of catastrophe if there is cooling (e.g. large volcano) Something like the supervolcano Toba 70k years ago would wipe out most of humanity. Our puny global warming would not help. But there are much more likely eruptions that would cool the planet a degree or two C for a few years. Those would wipe out crops with summer frosts. GW would help blunt the impact of such an event. Note that there are not similar catastrophes on the warm side, there is no such thing as "volcanic summer" or "nuclear summer". Global Warming phenomena is removing clean, natural water capabilities and capacity around the world Not really. Where glaciers have melted the same precipitation (or more) falls and can be dammed. The Great Lakes dropped for a while, but now they are rising again since 2008. Increased warming means increased precipitation, plain and simple. Where it falls might chance, but that's what dams and pipelines are for. Are you saying that a denser population group distribution creates additional personal liberties and freedoms? Less dense since we can spread out more easily. Do you want to live in Minnesota? I didn't think so, for one thing your solar electric would stink there As for your solar projects, you have spent considerable more money (including my tax money) than I have, but I have some solar electric. I also have two new passive solar heating boxes and am making plans for a third for upstairs. I also painted my foundation black. I have done many things to save energy (and stay warm) and I have not spent one dime of taxpayer's money doing it. Edit: I should also add that I don't believe I should have the right to sell my solar power back to the power company. It doesn't save money because the peak use is later than peak solar. Now if you actually maintain batteries, use them to supply your own peak power and sell back peak power to the electric company, then I applaud that. Otherwise you are just wasting everyone else's money.
Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
You already stated that there are NO solutions Buck. Read your posts on this thread. I don't share your doom and gloom outlook on the Global Warming scam. I simply view it as a scam. Your graphs do not alter this view one iota. BTW, you have never really offered any viable solutions, if, in fact, your theory is correct. The government thinks it has some solutions, but you aren't for government intervention. So, please share your solutions. You worry about over population. Again what is your solution? How can I give you the sense of respect you are seeking when you refuse to offer any solutions that do not require government intervention? You like to agree with what you deem to be the problem with a serious, even pious, position and interpretention of cherry picked data.....but I have yet to hear of any viable solution from you. Yet, I am to take you seriously regarding your concern and evaluation of the problem? You won't even consider the SUN in this argument........frankly, I have a hard time accepting that your argument is serious at all when you opt for this blatent omission. Seriously, are you looking for solutions? What about the SUN? You have ignored every question I've presented regarding that big ball of fire in the sky.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
He's using Global Warming and Resource Competition as arguments against open immigration. Also, he (dubiously) claims to be using our opinions as a financial bellwether.
I'll be very clear about this. If you never use power from the power company, then congratulations. But if you do, are you using peak power (cold and cloudy or cold and nighttime)? If yes, then your system is draining money from the economy by your receipt of a subsidy for power that is not really needed by the system. If no, then congratulations, we can share tips on battery charging and maintenance. I have spent far more of my spare hours on batteries than on panels. If you don't know, then the answer is probably yes, you are just wasting everyone's money with all the unneeded power you are selling at nonpeak times.
Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
Didn't you just say your were joking about government intervention? Which is it Buck? You can't have your global warming cake and eat it without the government regulating the oven that it was cooked in and the units of carbon produced in the baking process.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Oh Carry_Okie answered that question quite nicely: The key to cracking the Constitutional system was international law, a loophole in Article VI Clause 2 of the Constitution, governing the adoption of treaties and the scope of their powers (IMO the rat Patrick Henry and others smelled only too clearly; if you want a good chuckle read Hamilton's defense of the manner of treaty ratification in Federalist #75). To implement the plan European investors needed a foothold in the US before they could get into the market. Until the Civil War, corporations were haltered in the US because they were not allowed to own land and were not protected under the Constitution in a manner co-equal to citizens. After the Civil War the US was deeply in debt to that very European investor class. The 14th Amendment changed that balance of power between the individual and corporate. Once the appropriate Supreme Court cases were in place interpreting persons "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as including corporate persons, corporations then derived equal protection under the laws and could own property, the investment floodgates opened, and that not only created an American industrial colossus, it produced an American investor class owning enormously influential private tax-exempt foundations. So it isn't exactly by coincidence that it is those same colossal foundations that are making all those "charitable" donations to those icky Greens. The Environmental Grantmakers Association? That's Rockefeller. The Pew Charitable Trusts? That's Sunoco. W. Alton Jones? That's Citgo. The World Wildlife Fund? BP and Shell. You do see a pattern, don't you? These are more than investors in energy, their assets include timber, mining, banking, food production… They aren't fools. They use the same simple and ancient recipe as did their European forbears by which to manufacture a predictable return: Kill the competition with regulations, create a shortage, and cash in. It's become so common there is even an excellent book out on the topic that I suggest you read, . It's a simple process that has accelerated over the last five decades. It's a vertically integrated racketeering system that extends over the entire planet. American investors in multinational operations are perfectly happy taking a hit on US operations destroying domestic production because their investments abroad get the business. They either convert domestic resource land to real estate or mothball it under tax exempt conservancies, Federal monuments, and such. "The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
So far I'm reading here that you're unhappy because the environmentalists aren't as effective as they should be with regard to protecting the environment. Are you saying we should be protecting more natural habitat, or less? Are you saying more farmers should be able to guzzle water resources, or less? Which is it? How to get there from here? I do not happen to believe that the free market will solve this problem. If we hadn't nationalized our parks and our national forests, things would be a lot worse.
Would they? You haven't read Carry's book. Or the stuff on his web site. Even reading that one post in its entirety would open some eyes. Remember the polluting of our water by MTBE? Brought to you by the NRDC. Even the beetle problem buck brings up was caused by the environmental movement.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
You bring up MTBE. What about leaded fuel? Just when were we going to stop using lead without the EPA? These are not reasons to privatize our natural resources.
Not true. In Canada the Bark Beetle has created even more CO2, felling the forests as the tree stubs rot on the ground. Please read your own comment, commercial greenhouses as though these resources feed 6.7Bn people around the world. An incredible analogy with backyard watering hoses and constant human manicure operations within a contained greenhouse of exquisite academic quality. I disagree with you. Are you arguing that sustainability is achievable with increasing human population growth? How is, "management" going to ensure sustainability concepts towards your world-wonder? You claim that the Canadian/Alaskan perma-frost line is diminishing what about in Norway, Russia, Finland? Too many people with too little resources while government extracts my tax dollars to fill the differences. Catastrophes are one thing. Mother nature calls on all of us. Yet, the changes around the world must be addressed with responsive understanding that each and everyone of us is capable to modify the environment. Wrong! Fresh water supplies are falling precipitously. Are you saying that a denser population group distribution creates additional personal liberties and freedoms? Less dense since we can spread out more easily. Do you want to live in Minnesota? I didn't think so, for one thing your solar electric would stink there. I don't know what you mean by this question. Are you saying I should read a book by Ted Nugent?
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
You're not really reading what I post are you?
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
Not your links. Put your arguments in line. You haven't answered my question about water for agribusiness yet, either.
The REAL problem is not addressing a rebuttal of and about some off-the road poster's comment concerning further restrictions about laizzez-faire or capitalism. It is about our very survival. The world is dying.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
You don't really think that the world owes us a living, do you? It'll do just fine without the human race. If we can't survive what's ahead, then we weren't flexible enough.
Not from a C02 O'd. The planetary ecosystem is severely out of equilibrium and we may even have passed the point of no return, but CO2 is the least of our worries. Neither is Glowbull Warming. Toxic pollutants being pumped into the atmosphere and the water table are lardering the system with toxins.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The greatest prosperity of men and women has been without government of any kind. You can read this same point on just about any chit-chat website. Today, the advertised government slogan is "carbon units" to make you free. What makes you think that the slogan, tomorrow won't be "your blue-eyes"? What will happen to you when the government has ultimately claimed you are a carbon deficit?
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
As I looked around the Internet from China, India and even America ... all I see are vibrant idiots showing their hands on and towards a "fix" global warming phenomena through government control. Can it be fixed?
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
They can only accomplish this feat with the rally cry of folks like you spewing the government mantra that CO2 is the culprit. I agree with the 31,000 plus scientists who have signed on to the petition claiming this entire global warming is a farce, a scam, a blatent attempt to implement global control over the people. 31,486 American scientists have signed this petition, including 9,029 with PhDs Summary of Peer-Reviewed Research Most scientists have a detailed knowledge of their own narrow field of specialization, a general knowledge of fundamental science, an understanding of the scientific method, and a mental model that encompasses a broad range of scientific disciplines. This model serves as the basis of their thoughts about scientific questions. When a scientist desires to refine his understanding of a specific scientific subject, he often begins by reading one or more review articles about that topic. As he reads, he compares the facts given in the review with his mental model of the subject, refining his model and updating it with current information. Review articles do not present new discoveries. The essential facts given in the review must be referenced to the peer-reviewed scientific research literature, so that the reader can check the assertions and conclusions of the article and obtain more detailed information about aspects that interest him. A 12-page review article about the human-caused global warming hypothesis is circulated with the petition. To view the entire article in html, 150-dpi PDF, 300-dpi PDF, 600-dpi PDF, Spanish or figures alone in powerpoint or flash, click on the appropriate item in this sentence. The factual information cited in this article is referenced to the underlying research literature, in this case by 132 references listed at the end of the article. Although written primarily for scientists, most of this article can be understood without formal scientific training. This article was submitted to many scientists for comments and suggestions before it was finalized and submitted for publication. It then underwent ordinary peer review by the publishing journal. The United Nations IPCC also publishes a research review in the form of a voluminous, occasionally-updated report on the subject of climate change, which the United Nations asserts is “authored” by approximately 600 scientists. These “authors” are not, however – as is ordinarily the custom in science – permitted power of approval the published review of which they are putative authors. They are permitted to comment on the draft text, but the final text neither conforms to nor includes many of their comments. The final text conforms instead to the United Nations objective of building support for world taxation and rationing of industrially-useful energy. Purpose of Petition The purpose of the Petition Project is to demonstrate that the claim of “settled science” and an overwhelming “consensus” in favor of the hypothesis of human-caused global warming and consequent climatological damage is wrong. No such consensus or settled science exists. As indicated by the petition text and signatory list, a very large number of American scientists reject this hypothesis. Publicists at the United Nations, Mr. Al Gore, and their supporters frequently claim that only a few “skeptics” remain – skeptics who are still unconvinced about the existence of a catastrophic human-caused global warming emergency. It is evident that 31,486 Americans with university degrees in science – including 9,029 PhDs, are not "a few." Moreover, from the clear and strong petition statement that they have signed, it is evident that these 31,486 American scientists are not “skeptics.” These scientists are instead convinced that the human-caused global warming hypothesis is without scientific validity and that government action on the basis of this hypothesis would unnecessarily and counterproductively damage both human prosperity and the natural environment of the Earth. How Petition is Circulated This petition is primarily circulated by U. S. Postal Service mailing to scientists. Included in this mailing are the petition card, the letter from Frederick Seitz, the review article, and a return envelope. If a scientist wishes to sign, he fills out the petition and mails it to the project by first class mail. Additionally, many petition signers obtain petition cards from their colleagues, who request these cards from the project. A scientist can also obtain a copy of the petition from this Internet website, sign, and mail it. Fewer than 5% of the current signatories obtained their petition in this way. Petition project volunteers evaluate each signers's credentials, verify signer identities, and, if appropriate, add the signer's name to the petition list. Here's the link to the petition: http://www.petitionproject.org/index.php Al Gore is crying big crocodile tears. You can now dispute the petition and the 31,000 plus scientists Buck. You worry about carbon deficits.......I won't.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I didn't.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
That is your choice. However, you often comment that the factual basis of the hypothesis has been determined and that there is no debate. This is not true. There is plenty of debate. Some scientists are even debating the effects of the SUN on the climate. Imagine that--the sun having a correlation with temperatures. Some scientists are returning to previously held views regarding global cooling, which was the big fear spewed in the '70's. Many find the notion that CO2 is to blame ridiculous. Do the views of these scientists within this field of expertise have any merit Buck? Do they have no say in the debate that was supposedly settled?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Yeah ... Kepler's epicycles are convincing the world and finally demonstrating the world towards methods of energy conservation.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
You're used to foruming with people who are sympathetic to your cause, aren't you?
Not at all but I see no reason to continue a conversation with someone who isn't going to even look at the material provided.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
You're expecting me to take an off-site link as your argument? You've got to be kidding.
My answer was in the links.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
So this "farmfriend" moniker of yours. You're still lobbying for agribusiness, right?
No but I can't explain to you in a short post what it took him a whole book to explain. The post of his at FR I linked to is a good start even though it is about energy not water. Same arguments apply but you won't even go read that. So again, what is the point in even having a conversation with you?
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
I never lobbied for agribusiness. I lobbied for the Grange. Founded in 1867, the Grange is the oldest general farm and public policy organization in the United States. They are grass roots, not agribusiness. And no, I'm not even a member of the Grange now.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
You want me to visit Free Republic?
Painful as it may be, yes, just that one post. It is worth it. OR you can go here and read a synopsis of the book: "The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
Don't goe to FreeRepubulick..... I swear, the power there is to persuade you into a fascist agenda. I tried it once ..... I am considered a bad, bad boy.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Why wouldn't privatization be just as corrupt as what we have is today? If the government is corrupt, private control could be just as well.
Furthermore, if natural resources were privatized, where would public policy come into play? If there's public input, then how is it truly privatized? This doesn't make sense. It sounds like a method for getting the corporations back into control over the resources they've always wanted.
Third party verification and liability insurance.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
It's not.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
So you just want us to trust you. That's not very reassuring.
How would third party verification and insurance be better than congressional oversight and executive authority? Who appoints the third parties? Who keeps them from profiteering from collusion with the corporations? This is corporatism.
You could easily appoint me, "buckeroo" as your tyrant taking so-called concepts into our new world vision. One of my first acts: 1) no more give-aways. Note: no guarantee towards the above without massive infusion of dinero.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Perhaps. But there are lots of things we can do without being leeches on the taxpayers and electric ratepayers. Do you know who uses the power you generate in the middle of the day when nobody is home? The answer is nobody, you are being paid for power that nobody needs. The rest of us honest ratepayers pay for the power you generate that nobody uses. Next question, how do you get power when the sun isn't shining? Solar that works without sunlight? No, it's coal, gas and oil. All you would have to do is get some batteries and get off the grid. But you refuse to live by your own motto: "everyone of us is capable to modify the environment". But not you, you got a special deal to sell your useless power to the power company even though we taxpayers subsidized your installation. Then you expect power whenever you feel like it, when your solar can't provide it. And you expect it at low rates instead of the peak rates that it actually costs. So answer this: why are you on the grid? You are certainly not doing anything useful for the environment while you leech off the grid.
Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
This is corporatism. You do understand the concepts of third party verification and liability insurance don't you? UL is a perfect example. When was the last time you worried about being seriously harmed by your coffee maker? Do you think we need congressional over sight for small appliances? Ok, you're a pig farmer. You're saying you need congressional oversight and regulations (which we all know are currently corrupt) to protect the local creek. I'm saying that you need certification from a third party that you are using best environmental practices, waste and run off containment etc. You need this to cut your liability insurance costs, liability against damaging the creek of course. Now should you damage the creek, your insurance covers the cost of clean up. Your insurance goes up, possibly to the point of putting you out of the pig farming business. It is in your best financial interest to protect that creek. Let's use Exxon spill in Alaska as an example. Government regulation didn't protect us from that did it? But if they had to carry liability insurance against environmental damage they would have been using double hulled ships already. No accident. Using double hulled ships would have cut their insurance costs and thus would have been in their financial interest. Get it?
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
Before pursuing your question I want you to know to know that I highly respect your many and varied posts concerning financial matters that affect all of us whether you agree with my opinions or not; it is clear, you are wise by all posts and standards; and more than that, you really care about the world around us. So, don't be afraid to belt out your personal opinions. Our dialogue makes the world happen. I shall attempt my most heartfelt and genuine capability to say that I want to answer your questions: True. I received a government stipend to help pay for the system I designed. There are no answers to any local energy methods. Here, in Southern California I capitalized on the normalized climate. "The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
This is corporatism. No, what is going on now is corporatism. Kill the competition with regulations, create a shortage, and cash in. Is that really what you are advocating? It is exactly what the environmental movement has given us.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
Here's a graph that will help you understand why your solar power is useless. http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html Since it is from Calif, it is directly applicable. First look at the red line, that's your power usage and everyone else's. If you are a typical user you will use power mostly from 5PM to 10:30PM. How much power are your solar cells generating then? Zero. Next look at the green line, that's power available to the system. Note how 28000 MW can be supplied during the middle of the day when your solar cells are working (except when it is cloudy). Note how only 23000 MW are being used. How much power does the system need from your solar cells? Zero. How much are you being paid for your unneeded power? Full price. It is simply an unrealistic subsidy for your political correctness. Another thing to think about. Where does your neighbor get his power? From your solar cells? Well only when they are working. Suppose a cloud comes along, then where does you neighbor get his power? From the grid which includes whatever they need to generate power when no solar is available (e.g. a storm) Final step: when you are using your power from 5 to 10:30, where does it come from? Did you store it during the day in batteries? No you leech it from the grid at low prices. It comes from coal, gas and oil. You have done nothing to save the environment. There is the same amount of coal, gas and oil capacity and when you "supply" power to the grid you are not saving any coal, gas or oil since, as I pointed out above, your power is unreliable. You can, of course, change the entire equation by disconnecting from the grid. But I doubt you will do it since you are getting a subsidy for supplying politically correct, but actually useless electrons. Plus you get power at cheap rates when it is most expensive to generate. That brings up the other possibility, if you want to do something good for the environment, use no (zero) power from 5 to 10:30 in the evening. But I don't think you will do that either.
Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
How does that relate to vast arrays of aqua fir, mineral and floral resources, such as our national parks and forests? Sure, you can have companies attempting to "steal" value from customers, but after a few are shocked, they'll just stop buying coffee makers. Industrialization requires risk taking, hence the occasional failure. But things have gotten better. Our air is cleaner, much cleaner than it was just 20 years ago. We can still require environmental insurance with our present system. So no, I don't get it. I'm not about to turn our parks, our water, our air, and anything else in the environment back over to the corporations. The proper thing to do is fix government. If we don't do that, things will just keep getting worse. This all reminds me of Ron Paul saying he didn't want to close the borders with military force because sound economic policy would "fix it." He didn't even really care about illegal immigration in the first place. The people and their governmental representatives care about the environment. Corporations could care less, and no amount of legislation will make them do it.
Until you disconnect from the grid you are not energy independent.
Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
Says the former lobbyist. I'm not buying it. We have national forests, protected water tables, clean air, good wetlands. Some could be better. Things would be a lot worse if they were privatized. What we need to do is get our governments cleaned up. You won't have any better situation without doing that, no matter what you're proposing. Protecting the common good is always going to require sound government, which we lack. But at least citizens take interest in the environment, and it's not on the other side of the planet (unless you count the carbon dioxide situation).
Like that has anything to do with it. I lobbied Grange policy. As I said, that was grassroots. I take it you have never watched Overview Of America. Your collectivism is disgusting.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
Incorrect.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
You're the one lobbying for corporate control, which is one step removed from the people, of our entire set of environmental resources. As even a good Bircher can tell us, corporations are now part of the communist control over America. So you're arguing for completing the cycle. I'm saying we're lucky that we have any control at all over our natural resources, and that resulted from a tug-of-war between the corporatists and the people who actually care about the environment.
Already stated at least twice that I did not. Your insistence otherwise is suspect at best. You want to know what I lobbied? Read Grange Policy No, that's what you are doing. Sadly you can't see it.You think the environmental movement actually cares about the environment? You really didn't read my posts at all did you. I'll post it again just for your benefit. The key to cracking the Constitutional system was international law, a loophole in Article VI Clause 2 of the Constitution, governing the adoption of treaties and the scope of their powers (IMO the rat Patrick Henry and others smelled only too clearly; if you want a good chuckle read Hamilton's defense of the manner of treaty ratification in Federalist #75). To implement the plan European investors needed a foothold in the US before they could get into the market. Until the Civil War, corporations were haltered in the US because they were not allowed to own land and were not protected under the Constitution in a manner co-equal to citizens. After the Civil War the US was deeply in debt to that very European investor class. The 14th Amendment changed that balance of power between the individual and corporate. Once the appropriate Supreme Court cases were in place interpreting persons "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" as including corporate persons, corporations then derived equal protection under the laws and could own property, the investment floodgates opened, and that not only created an American industrial colossus, it produced an American investor class owning enormously influential private tax-exempt foundations. So it isn't exactly by coincidence that it is those same colossal foundations that are making all those "charitable" donations to those icky Greens. The Environmental Grantmakers Association? That's Rockefeller. The Pew Charitable Trusts? That's Sunoco. W. Alton Jones? That's Citgo. The World Wildlife Fund? BP and Shell. You do see a pattern, don't you? These are more than investors in energy, their assets include timber, mining, banking, food production… They aren't fools. They use the same simple and ancient recipe as did their European forbears by which to manufacture a predictable return: Kill the competition with regulations, create a shortage, and cash in. It's become so common there is even an excellent book out on the topic that I suggest you read, . It's a simple process that has accelerated over the last five decades. It's a vertically integrated racketeering system that extends over the entire planet. American investors in multinational operations are perfectly happy taking a hit on US operations destroying domestic production because their investments abroad get the business. They either convert domestic resource land to real estate or mothball it under tax exempt conservancies, Federal monuments, and such. It is these corporate owned NGOs that are funding the environmental movement. They force regulations that kill competition for their investments. Wake up and smell the coffee, the environmental movement is NOT about the environment.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
You're surely not going to tell me that the blue helmets are coming to get me if I don't sign up for your multi-level forest management system?
what the hell are you talking about now?
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
You're the one talking about NGOs and the UN. If there is an elaborate mechanism as you describe it, how would privatizing it break the links? That's unclear. Links would be very easy to recreate with corporate control as well.
You seem to have no concept of what I'm talking about.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
Desperately in need of a clue but it's raining and no bucket - or even a teaspoon.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
What is required to get into your thick skull that the world is not all about government? Although the government can make up just about anything, there is truly and realistic truth about the world around us.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Well maybe some reader will get the benefit.
"The only thing better than a Federal Reserve audit would be a Federal Reserve autopsy." ~ unknown
I sure hope so. The trail could be no clearer.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I see your point. More Mad Dog?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
? I can only suppose you caught me making posts towards that insipid low-life.
"The most terrifying words in the English language are, I'm from the government and I am here to help." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1976
Do you use any power from 5pm to 10:30 pm? Where does that power come from? Do you store it during the day? No, you bragged about how you sell it to the power company. But the curve I showed you demonstrates that the power you sell it not needed. They only buy it from you as a policy of political correctness. More importantly, where does the energy come from that you use after dark? Answer, coal, gas, oil. Those are the peak providers of energy since they can be turned on every evening when needed. You use that coal, gas and oil energy, so how can you say that you are energy independent? There are simple things you can do to he energy independent and help the environment, (1) disconnect from the grid. Or (2) get some batteries to store your energy to use at night. Or (3) refrain from using power during the evening (that means zero, so you will need to change your schedule, possibly change some appliances or get controllers for them, etc.
Money problems do not come from a lack of money, but from living an excessive, unrealistic lifestyle
#2. To: buckeroo, farmfriend, James Deffenbach (#0)
Still global warming phenomena is an undeniable FACT!
#3. To: buckeroo (#0)
Still global warming phenomena is an undeniable FACT!
#4. To: Original_Intent (#2)
#5. To: buckeroo (#4)
since 1850
#6. To: abraxas (#5)
that is such an insignificant amount of time in the scope of the life of this planet.
#7. To: buckeroo, abraxas, farmfriend, James Deffenbach (#4)
That isn't true. 1998 is the hottest year recorded since 1850 with mean temperature distributions around the globe; 2005 is the second.
#8. To: Original_Intent (#7)
One data point, or even two, cherry picked out of a larger data set does not make a case.
#9. To: buckeroo (#6)
#10. To: buckeroo, abraxas, farmfriend, James Deffenbach (#6)
(Edited)
clutching
straws
#11. To: Original_Intent (#10)
What happens at the end of an Ice Age? That is what climatological trend tells you that the ICE AGE has ended?
#12. To: buckeroo (#8)
#13. To: buckeroo (#0)
Still global warming phenomena is an undeniable FACT!
#14. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#10)
Is the entire Tertiary a result of man-made Glowbull Warming?
#15. To: abraxas (#11)
What happens at the end of an Ice Age? That is what climatological trend tells you that the ICE AGE has ended?
#16. To: purpleman (#13)
#17. To: farmfriend, buckeroo (#14)
Is the entire Tertiary a result of man-made Glowbull Warming?
#18. To: abraxas (#9)
Do tell, how will a carbon tax and outlawing CO2 fix either problem? How will more idiotic gooberint regulation fix either problem? When has the goobermint EVER fixed anything?
#19. To: buckeroo, abraxas, Original_Intent (#18)
And there isn't much that can be done about it.
#20. To: Original_Intent (#12)
Now be honest and show the rest of the graph to present time.
#21. To: farmfriend (#19)
Then why beat us up over it?
#22. To: buckeroo, farmfriend (#21)
#23. To: Deasy, Original_Intent (#22)
#24. To: Original_Intent (#2)
And the FACT that Global average temperatures have declined for the last ten years proves that we have Glowbull Warming.
Lord Acton
#25. To: buckeroo (#23)
#26. To: buckeroo (#0)
All these anti-commandments were brought into focus this past week by the visit of the Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, better known as Lord Christopher Monckton, journalist by trade, mathematician by training, provocateur by inclination.
Lord Acton
#27. To: Deasy (#25)
#28. To: James Deffenbach (#26)
And a man Al Gore would not debate on an open forum with television cameras for any amount of money. Al needs to STFU, or as Archie Bunker might say, he needs to stifle himself.
#29. To: purpleman (#13)
warming the earth a bit is one of the good things.
#30. To: buckeroo (#29)
#31. To: abraxas (#9)
Is your worry global warming or over population? You do realize that one worry will take care of the other worry in time........if your theory is right. If over population is your biggest worry, then you should be happy about global warming and the pending doom and gloom for humankind.
Lord Acton
#32. To: Original_Intent (#17)
Glowbull Warming is Glowbull Bullshit.
Lord Acton
#33. To: buckeroo (#28)
Didn't AlGore publickly state that he invented the Internet?
Lord Acton
#34. To: buckeroo, farmfriend (#21)
You think a political game is in motion as you take one side of the argument
#35. To: abraxas (#34)
#36. To: purpleman (#30)
* longer growing season
* along with more CO2, increased crop yields
* more game and fish
* more use of unusable Canadian land (since GW favors colder climates)
* more people walking and biking to work since it won't be too cold
* reduced risk of catastrophe if there is cooling (e.g. large volcano)
* less strife over water resources (GW = more precipitation)
* best of all, more comfort for a greater number of people
#37. To: James Deffenbach (#31)
#38. To: Deasy (#35)
Something tells me the real polluters and "unsustainable" consuming corporations are going to win either way. Now who's playing that game on us?
#39. To: abraxas (#38)
#40. To: buckeroo (#36)
to release the heat particularly during a HOT Summertime day in Southern California.
#41. To: abraxas (#40)
You keep interchanging your worries about over population and global warming.
#42. To: abraxas (#37)
Thanks James. : )
Lord Acton
#43. To: buckeroo (#41)
(Edited)
As a simple example, do you note that the US government continues to clamp down on personal liberties and freedoms while the population base is soaring?
#44. To: abraxas (#43)
It is only soaring because the goobermint refuses to address the illegal alien plight.
#45. To: buckeroo (#44)
That is only one of the issues confronting Americans. You haven't addressed the continuing rape of our tax-payer dollars which is a MUCH larger issue: the goobermint as you call it, must limit natural resources through common distribution methods thus appeasing the greater masses.
#46. To: abraxas, farmfriend (#45)
Seriously, the goobermint MUST limit natural resources?
#47. To: buckeroo (#46)
America's natural resource capabilities are stripped away.
#48. To: buckeroo, abraxas, farmfriend (#47)
At one time the California Central Valley was the hallmarck of agricultural accomplishment for the world; it was popularly said, California feeds the World.
#49. To: abraxas (#47)
So, why would you insist that the thieves and morons in DC, or even at the state level for that matter, be granted the responsibility to limit natural resources?
#50. To: buckeroo (#49)
The political ideas for and about controlling environmental issues are a joke. Governments, no matter the level and how well-intentioned NEVER have solutions.
#51. To: Deasy (#48)
How much of the water Californian agribusinesses used came from their own aqua firs? I think when California's valleys were the bread baskets of the world, they were importing a lot of their water, and pulling it out of water tables that were being depleted by those actions.
#52. To: buckeroo, abraxas, farmfriend (#51)
#53. To: abraxas (#50)
Maybe a little smiley face would help?
#54. To: buckeroo (#36)
(Edited)
#55. To: buckeroo (#53)
some threads need to be viewed with a sense of respect about the world around us and maybe ... and by golly or good luck, we can find solutions;
#56. To: abraxas (#55)
#57. To: buckeroo (#36)
I generate about 35KWhours a day on a South facing roof on 2300 foot home with no known carbon emissions. In California, I am now being paid for the excess abundance I accumulate; we have ample solar capability as the sunlight shines more than many other areas of the nation.
#58. To: buckeroo (#53)
I don't make fun of serious issues
#59. To: buckeroo, abraxas, Original_Intent, Deasy (#46)
(Edited)
But, beyond the FACTS, why is government limiting natural resources?
The supply regulation game is at least as old as the Dutch East India Company's manipulation of coffee prices by controlling access to the plants. Understanding that sorry history of economic tyranny by European corporate royalty, the founders of this nation tried to design a limited government, one that didn't have the power to control private property or have control of resources. Control of access to resources is too much temptation for the wealthy to purchase corrupt influence that depresses everybody else. They Founders failed.
1. Foist the necessary treaty law via (primarily American) NGOs at UN environmental agencies (largely funded by the US government).
2. Get the implementing legislation through Congress.
3. Use lawsuits by those same NGOs in federal courts to alter the meaning of the law.
4. Overwhelm the agencies with graduates brainwashed by professors who subsist of government and foundation grants.
5. Establish the regulatory power on the local level to control the decision-making with the cheapest politicians money can buy.
#60. To: farmfriend (#59)
#61. To: Deasy (#60)
I do not happen to believe that the free market will solve this problem. If we hadn't nationalized our parks and our national forests, things would be a lot worse.
#62. To: farmfriend (#61)
#63. To: purpleman (#54)
Insects True, winter kills them and they generally like the warm weather, but adaptability is in our favor, not theirs. Your mention of the pine bark beetles means we have some work to do (harvest the pine and plant alternatives). A good analogy is the storm of 1962 which took down 15 billion board feet ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus_Day_Storm_of_1962) The pine bark beetle kills a few billion board feet at most. In 1962 we didn't throw up our hands, we did something: built roads and harvested the wood.
spindly plants You are going to have to be more specific. There are numerous commercial greenhouses with double the normal CO2 getting thicker growth and 30-40% greater yields.
the natural environment is jam-packed with humans Not a warming issue at all and not an argument against more fish and game. With less winter kill and more vegetation there will be more game.
tundra is eroding Permafrost is melting, but tundra is not eroding more since the surface always thaws regardless of GW. If you are talking about along the Arctic Ocean, that's a small area and is manageable.
Everyone's quality of life is diminished How?
reduced risk of catastrophe if there is cooling (e.g. large volcano) Something like the supervolcano Toba 70k years ago would wipe out most of humanity. Our puny global warming would not help. But there are much more likely eruptions that would cool the planet a degree or two C for a few years. Those would wipe out crops with summer frosts. GW would help blunt the impact of such an event. Note that there are not similar catastrophes on the warm side, there is no such thing as "volcanic summer" or "nuclear summer".
Global Warming phenomena is removing clean, natural water capabilities and capacity around the world Not really. Where glaciers have melted the same precipitation (or more) falls and can be dammed. The Great Lakes dropped for a while, but now they are rising again since 2008. Increased warming means increased precipitation, plain and simple. Where it falls might chance, but that's what dams and pipelines are for.
#64. To: Deasy (#62)
These are not reasons to privatize our natural resources.
#65. To: farmfriend (#64)
(Edited)
#66. To: farmfriend (#59)
#67. To: buckeroo (#66)
#68. To: buckeroo, farmfriend (#66)
The world is dying.
#69. To: abraxas (#58)
You can't have your global warming cake and eat it [too] without the government regulating the oven that it was cooked in and the units of carbon produced in the baking process.
#70. To: Original_Intent (#68)
... but CO2 is the least of our worries.
Dear Heavenly Father .. please take the nitrous-oxide, down-town brown bag off of O_I's snout. It just isn't becoming of an otherwise fine poster.
#71. To: Original_Intent (#12)
A show of hands please.
#72. To: buckeroo (#69)
What will happen to you when the government has ultimately claimed you are a carbon deficit?
#73. To: abraxas (#72)
31,486 American scientists have signed this petition, including 9,029 with PhDs
#74. To: buckeroo (#73)
I didn't.
#75. To: abraxas (#74)
Some scientists are even debating the effects of the SUN on the climate. Imagine that--the sun having a correlation with temperatures.
#76. To: farmfriend (#64)
You're not really reading what I post are you?
#77. To: Deasy (#76)
You're used to foruming with people who are sympathetic to your cause, aren't you?
#78. To: farmfriend (#77)
#79. To: Deasy (#65)
Not your links. Put your arguments in line. You haven't answered my question about water for agribusiness yet, either.
#80. To: farmfriend (#79)
#81. To: Deasy (#78)
You're expecting me to take an off-site link as your argument? You've got to be kidding.
#82. To: Deasy (#80)
So this "farmfriend" moniker of yours. You're still lobbying for agribusiness, right?
#83. To: farmfriend (#81)
#84. To: Deasy (#83)
You want me to visit Free Republic?
This book proposes a free-market environmental management system designed to deliver a product that is superior to government oversight, at lower cost. It provides examples illustrating how the system might work and proposes an implementing legal strategy. Though environmental in origin, the principles this book describes are applicable toward privatizing nearly any form of government regulation.
#85. To: Deasy (#83)
#86. To: farmfriend (#84)
#87. To: farmfriend (#84)
#88. To: Deasy (#86)
Why wouldn't privatization be just as corrupt as what we have is today?
#89. To: Deasy (#87)
It sounds like a method for getting the corporations back into control over the resources they've always wanted.
#90. To: farmfriend (#89)
#91. To: farmfriend (#88)
Third party verification and liability insurance.
#92. To: Deasy (#91)
2) no more free votes.
3) no more free Constitution.
4) Everyone pays their own weight, no matter how massive they are.
#93. To: buckeroo (#63)
with responsive understanding that each and everyone of us is capable to modify the environment.
#94. To: Deasy, buckeroo (#91)
How would third party verification and insurance be better than congressional oversight and executive authority? Who appoints the third parties? Who keeps them from profiteering from collusion with the corporations?
#95. To: purpleman (#93)
Perhaps. But there are lots of things we can do without being leeches on the taxpayers and electric ratepayers. Do you know who uses the power you generate in the middle of the day when nobody is home? The answer is nobody, you are being paid for power that nobody needs. The rest of us honest ratepayers pay for the power you generate that nobody uses.
Next question, how do you get power when the sun isn't shining? Solar that works without sunlight? No, it's coal, gas and oil. All you would have to do is get some batteries and get off the grid. But you refuse to live by your own motto: "everyone of us is capable to modify the environment". But not you, you got a special deal to sell your useless power to the power company even though we taxpayers subsidized your installation. Then you expect power whenever you feel like it, when your solar can't provide it. And you expect it at low rates instead of the peak rates that it actually costs.
So answer this: why are you on the grid? You are certainly not doing anything useful for the environment while you leech off the grid.
I don't understand your perspective. I am interested in changing the world around me. So what if I took advantage of explicit government benefits as I recognized that to make a significant claim and commitment within my neighborhood; I am the first to claim energy independence within my neighborhood.
#96. To: Deasy (#91)
How would third party verification and insurance be better than congressional oversight and executive authority? Who appoints the third parties? Who keeps them from profiteering from collusion with the corporations?
#97. To: buckeroo (#63)
#98. To: farmfriend (#94)
Do you think we need congressional over sight for small appliances?
Ok, you're a pig farmer. You're saying you need congressional oversight and regulations (which we all know are currently corrupt) to protect the local creek.
You're saying that individual examples of failure (Valez oil spill) represent systemic failure. Yet this isn't the case. We've had increasingly better environmental protection since the 1960s. In fact, it was activists who were arguing against public oversight and congressional authority who were trying to get us to stop the legislation that has cleaned up our waterways, protected our wetlands, improved our fuel standards, and whatnot. You're in good company there. You're on the wrong side, as far as I can tell.
#99. To: buckeroo (#95)
I am the first to claim energy independence within my neighborhood.
#100. To: farmfriend (#96)
It is exactly what the environmental movement has given us.
#101. To: Deasy (#100)
(Edited)
Says the former lobbyist.
#102. To: purpleman (#99)
Until you disconnect from the grid you are not energy independent.
#103. To: farmfriend (#101)
Your collectivism is disgusting.
#104. To: Deasy, buckeroo, Original_Intent (#103)
(Edited)
You're the one lobbying for corporate control,
So you're arguing for completing the cycle.
The supply regulation game is at least as old as the Dutch East India Company's manipulation of coffee prices by controlling access to the plants. Understanding that sorry history of economic tyranny by European corporate royalty, the founders of this nation tried to design a limited government, one that didn't have the power to control private property or have control of resources. Control of access to resources is too much temptation for the wealthy to purchase corrupt influence that depresses everybody else. They Founders failed.
1. Foist the necessary treaty law via (primarily American) NGOs at UN environmental agencies (largely funded by the US government).
2. Get the implementing legislation through Congress.
3. Use lawsuits by those same NGOs in federal courts to alter the meaning of the law.
4. Overwhelm the agencies with graduates brainwashed by professors who subsist of government and foundation grants.
5. Establish the regulatory power on the local level to control the decision-making with the cheapest politicians money can buy.
#105. To: farmfriend (#104)
1. Foist the necessary treaty law via (primarily American) NGOs at UN environmental agencies (largely funded by the US government).
#106. To: Deasy (#105)
You're surely not going to tell me that the blue helmets are coming to get me if I don't sign up for your multi-level forest management system?
#107. To: farmfriend (#106)
(Edited)
#108. To: Deasy (#107)
#109. To: farmfriend, Deasy (#108)
You seem to have no concept of what I'm talking about.
#110. To: Original_Intent (#109)
Desperately in need of a clue
#111. To: Original_Intent (#109)
Desperately in need of a clue but it's raining and no bucket - or even a teaspoon.
#112. To: farmfriend (#111)
#113. To: buckeroo (#110)
#114. To: Original_Intent (#113)
Mad Dog?
#115. To: buckeroo (#102)
Until you disconnect from the grid you are not energy independent.
Incorrect.
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