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Religion
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Title: Christian Count.....Just Curious
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Feb 2, 2010
Author: AKA
Post Date: 2010-02-02 12:48:21 by A K A Stone
Keywords: None
Views: 4376
Comments: 243

Just curious who would consider themselves a christian. Under this definition. That there is a God and he did write the Bible. Or that it was inspired by him. That his word is perfect and without flaws. That Jesus is Gods only son and the only way to heaven.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 150.

#4. To: A K A Stone (#0)

That his word is perfect and without flaws.

Nonsense. Which version is the perfect one?

I'm a heretic.

I don't want to be lumped in with people that call themselves christians.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-02-02   14:55:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Nonsense. Which version is the perfect one?

Why his version, of course. Need you even ask? LOL!

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-02-02   15:20:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-02-03   9:29:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Are you guys familiar with the historicity and translation history of the Bible?

Just ask because it doesn't sound like it.

Which version is the perfect one?

That is what I asked, because I am somewhat familiar with the translation history of the Bible.

So, since you are evidently so familiar with this, since you question my familiarity with it, I'll ask you which one is the perfect "inerrant" version?

Now I fully expect you to ignore that question by trying to distract by asking about the "Magna Carta for example? Do you believe that they mean what they say? If so, then why, in contrast? What about "ancient Egyptian writings?" Same questions. "...

You won't answer because you can't. That's the real reason why. Because your answer will lead to more questions that you will find somewhat uncomfortable to contemplate and will tend to piss you off.

Here it is again: which version is the perfect "inerrant" version?

PSUSA  posted on  2010-02-03   10:26:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

deleted

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-02-03   10:27:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Well, sorry, I cannot sum up years of personal study in a single post on a thread for you.

I'll take your answer to have been no then.

And quit getting so emotional. It's unbecoming.

It's a very simple question.

Which version of the Bible is the perfect inerrant version?

It only takes a one line response. No need to "sum up years of personal study in a single post on a thread for you." What a wonderful distraction that was. Very creative. But not unexpected.

See? I told you that you would not answer it. Perhaps you'll reconsider??? For the benefit of the others here? Do it for them, not for me.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-02-03   11:07:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-02-03   12:14:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

BTW, your position has been made more than clear over the years.

We know that you disbelieve in the Living God and that will rarely if ever (never say never) provide much specific objective or otherwise hard data spawned by your personal knowledge or study of the Bible.

So how is it that you're an expert on it/them?

Well well well. What have we here?

BTW, your position has been made more than clear over the years.

Really? I didn't know I have been on this board for that long. How time flies!

We know that you disbelieve in the Living God

"We"?

and that will rarely if ever (never say never) provide much specific objective or otherwise hard data spawned by your personal knowledge or study of the Bible.

Answer my question and I will be happy to. I just need to know what the perfect version is.

So how is it that you're an expert on it/them?

I never said or hinted that I was an expert. Since when does it take an expert?

You continue to distract.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-02-03   12:50:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-02-03   13:34:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Then, what you'll notice is how easily explainable any perceived differences in the texts are reconciled.

Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, "we are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?

Jeremiah 23: 26-27 How long shall this be in teh heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? Yea, they are prophets of deceit in their own heart.

Luke 24:25 Then he (Jesus) said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart, to believe all that the prophets have spoken.

Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a think, I the Lord have deceived the prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.

Scirpture is clear that man is far from infallible in translation.

Moreover, the Bible is rife with contradictions. Because a story is told by man, the telling has discrepencies from one to the next. This is obvious in the telling of the story of Jesus, for example.

Such as the telling of the Trinity, the bible actually confuses teh Godhead multiple times:

John 1:1 Jesus and God are one. John 1:14 Jesus is God incarnate. Mark 1: 1 Jesus is the Son of God. Acts 2:22 Jesus was a man approved by God. John 10:30 Jesus and the Father are one. John 14:28 The Father is greater than Jesus. John 3:17 Jesus does NOT judge or condemn. John 5: 27,30, Acts 10:42, Cirubtguabs 5:10, God the Father has passed it to Jesus to judge. John 8:15 Jesus does not judge mankind but God the Father does. John 9:39 Jesus came into the world to judge. John 12:47 Jesus did not judge mankind but God the Father does. John 5:22 God does NOT judge. Romans 2:2-5, Peter 1:17, Revelation 20: 12-13 God does judge. Jude 1:14-15, God judes with ten thousand of his saints. John 5:24 Believers DO NOT come into judgment. Mathew 12:36-37, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Hebrews 9:27, 2 Timithy 4:1, All persons (believers and non-believers) come into judgement. John 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, ,his testimony is not true. John 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. John 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. John 10: 27-29 None of Jesus' followers will be lost. 1 Timothy 4:1 Some of them will be lost.

Apparently, there was NO harmony among Biblical writers. From this selection of scriputures, one cannot discern if there is or is not a Trinity. One must cherry pick to take a stance.

And this is just ONE example........I can provide hundreds more where one writer contradicts another. It's not even the differnces in the texts that cannot be reconciled but the text ITSELF when comparing one writer to the next.

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-03   14:20:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

deleted

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-02-03   14:49:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Please, allow me to ask however, are you sincerely interested in knowing, or are you simply throwing up stuff that you've heard (as it seems) and purely for purposes of arguing?

The above is trivial. I would have hoped that you would have come with far more difficult supposed "contradictions."

You, and PSUSA, among many others, will never understand the context and perspective until you seek from a truly seeking heart

In fact, I detect that you are being purely argumentative, and frankly, floating child's play arguments if you ask me and that have been addressed infinite times by others in the past ranging from the distant past to the modern past.

I know, but not based on some notion that the Bible is an infallible text.

As I stated before, I have HUNDREDS of Biblical contradictions up for discussion. The Trinity was posed because there is a divide within Christians regarding this matter, which I view as an obvious divide based upon contradictory texts posed by Biblical writers. If they are all receiving the Holy word of God, then why the contradiction, Eric? This is merely a way to avoid addressing the contradictions presented as you degrade the messenger and the scriptures presented by claiming that both are beneath your superior perceptions.

So, you are posing that your selection of texts is more clear and precise than the scriptures I offered for debate. Is this based solely on your choice? After you cherry pick are the other scriptures some how less relevant to the discussion?

Have you considered that PSUSA and I come to our understanding FROM THE HEART and not from Biblical text that is witten by humans and contradictory? You sure like to pass judgment on others, Eric. Do you know my heart? Do you know PSUSA's heart? No, you don't, and, in truth, the hearts of others are not for you to judge. The scriptures are clear on that issue.

As far as I'm concerned, a good Christian could discard all of the Bible save the Sermon on the Mount and have all the text necessary to be the kind of Christian Jesus came to show them was possible. However, most Christians discard the Sermon on the Mount, as this is a difficult path to embark upon, opting instead to banter about the rest of the contradictory text to justify their own perceptions.

Your detections are based on your perceptions, and both are wrong. So, according to you, the Trinity is child's play. You should send a memo to theologians who spend their lives disecting this matter. Merely the fact that the debate continues demonstrates validity in the argument.

Next, we can discuss the various ways in which writers of the Bible tell the masses that they can be saved. Unless you deem this matter also as child's play and beneath your self righteous indignation to address. Many contradictions on that issue, much debate in the distant and modern past right up to this current moment. Getting saved may just be child's play from your persepective, if so, just let me know.

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-03   15:19:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

You sure like to pass judgment on others

Eric judged you correctly. We are commanded to judge. Oh and you are a fool.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-02-05   0:09:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

We are commanded to judge. Oh and you are a fool.

lol.....let's check on the scriptures.

There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: WHO ART THOU THAT JUDGEST ANOTHER? James, iv, 12.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more. Romans, xiv, 13.

Wherin thou judgest another, THOU CONDEMNEST THYSELF. Romans, ii, 1.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned......For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. Luke, vi, 37-38.

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgement ye judge, ye shaall be judged: and with waht measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Matthew, vii, 1-2.

God is the judge: he putteth down one, and setteth up another. Psalms, lxxv,7.

Who made thee ruler and judge over us? Acts, vii 27, 35.

He maketh the judges of the earth as vanity. (speaking of fools.....)Isaiah, xl, 23.

So, AKA, do these scriptures say that you are "commanded" to judge or do we have another contradition within the infallible Bible?

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-05   19:34:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

So, AKA, do these scriptures say that you are "commanded" to judge or do we have another contradition within the infallible Bible?

The Bible teaches us to judge righteous judgement. We have to judge.

The verses that you quoted are simply saying not to be a hypocrite in your judgements.

No contradiction. Hopefully you can learn from that and study it further.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-02-05   22:02:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The Bible teaches us to judge righteous judgement. We have to judge.

No, the scriptures I quoted didn't say RIGHTEOUS judgment.......YOU say that. But, the scriptures quoted are quite clear.

Besides one would actually have to be RIGHTEOUS to make a righteous judgment and that discounts you AKA, even if your cherry picking application of scripture had any merit.......which it doesn't. You merely prove my point about the contraditions. The scripture is clear, yet you deny the Biblical word so that you can opt for other scriptures that better fit your small perception and belief system.

Some Christian....you discount the scipture when it doesn't fit your self- righteous and arrogant belief that YOU should be the judge and not the Lord.

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-05   22:30:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

No, the scriptures I quoted didn't say RIGHTEOUS judgment.......YOU say that. But, the scriptures quoted are quite clear.

No fool you didn't. Because you were ignorant or you wished to decieve. Here you go. No contradiction little mind squanderer of your measure of faith.

Jesus said: "Judge not, that you be not judged" (Matthew 7:1).

Does this mean we are never to judge? Certainly not, for Jesus also said: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-02-06   10:04:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

No fool you didn't. Because you were ignorant or you wished to decieve. Here you go. No contradiction little mind squanderer of your measure of faith.

Jesus said: "Judge not, that you be not judged" (Matthew 7:1).

Does this mean we are never to judge? Certainly not, for Jesus also said: "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24).

So, are you claiming there is no contradiction between Matthew and John?

As I said before, one must actually be righteous to make a righteous judgment and this would discount you.

The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. James, iii, 18. (that's not you AKA)

If righteousness came by law, then Christ is dead in vain. Galatians, ii, 21, iii, 21. (So, did Christ die in vain, AKA?)

Moses describeth righteousness that is of the law. Romans, x, 6. (As you do)

Christ is the END of the law of righteousness to everyone who believeth. Romans, x, 3. (Do you believeth?)

They BEING IGNORANT of God's righteousness, and going out to establish THEIR OWN RIGHTEOUSNESS, have NOT submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. Romans, x, 3. (This scripture is speaking directly to you AKA)

AS IS WRITTEN, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE. Romans, iii, 10. (Hence the provision that you should NOT pass judgment, because YOU are not righteous.) So, is this last scripture a contradiction or untruth, according to you, within the infallible Bible? Is there a loop hole that omits you from understanding that YOU are NOT righteous?

One more for you: We are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness's are as filthy rags. Isaiah 64, 6.

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-06   10:23:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

mei krinete, hina mei kritheite

Did the translator leave out hina which can be translated "in order that, so that"?

The following passage suggests that this means "judge not in those matter wherein judgment may be meted out to you."

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

These individual lines and phrases can't be read in isolation. Jesus is saying that judges must themselves be clean or be cleansed in order to judge righteously I think.

randge  posted on  2010-02-06   11:19:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

These individual lines and phrases can't be read in isolation. Jesus is saying that judges must themselves be clean or be cleansed in order to judge righteously I think.

But Randge, how CAN they judge righteously?

AS IS WRITTEN, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE. Romans, iii, 10

None are clean, none are perfect, none are righteous. Who is fit to judge, other than the Lord, when none are righteous?

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-06   11:29:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

AS IS WRITTEN, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE. Romans, iii, 10

IMO:

We judge all the time. Look at the posts on this board. I'm sure you have issued your own judgments on these topics. I know I have.

The thing is, we should judge ourselves and leave others alone, due to the inevitable beams in our own eyes. It seems that we have a tendency to want to "help" God judge others.

Matthew 16:19 KJV And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

That required judgment.

John 7:24 KJV Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

That is how we do it. When people want to lord it over us, there will be problems. So, don't lord it over others. It's the GOlden Rule in action.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-02-06   11:53:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm sure you have issued your own judgments on these topics

The thing is, we should judge ourselves and leave others alone, due to the inevitable beams in our own eyes

So, don't lord it over others.

Always on topics. But, we are talking about making those personal judgments, as have been cast upon you and I from people who do not know and will never know what is in our hearts.

I agree completely.

I'm not attempting to lord anything over others. I'm attempting to discern who is RIGHTEOUS to pass judgment. I do not believe that I am of such righteousness and I am attempting to discern what basis others feel that they are righteous enough to judge you and I or anybody else for that matter.

Initially, I posted to discuss the Biblical contradictions. These posts were ignored completely, no comment whatsoever, but I did receive a big dose of judgment on me personally for having dared to post it. Kill the messenger I suppose.

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-06   12:14:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Initially, I posted to discuss the Biblical contradictions. These posts were ignored completely, no comment whatsoever, but I did receive a big dose of judgment on me personally for having dared to post it. Kill the messenger I suppose.

You sometimes feel that way when your posts go unanswered. Myself, I just posted something on a topic that kind of interested me here and then had to run out on some errands.

As it happens, you posted some intriguing verses on "judging" and "righteousness." You asked me to pass on them. I can only say that these are things that I don't pretend to understand well.

It looks to me like Jesus is telling us that we are not capable of "judging" at all. Yet we judge all the time in this world. Who can walk in those shoes, I wonder. Who can follow in these superhuman footsteps? As in so many other concerns, I know that I'm not able.

Perhaps you'll be good enough to explain these verses to me. I confess that I'm not able to "judge" them.

randge  posted on  2010-02-06   13:05:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Perhaps you'll be good enough to explain these verses to me. I confess that I'm not able to "judge" them.

I agree with you. How do we survive when we can not "judge" .. doesn't our personal sense of the best methods to provide for our families to our ensure our own futures? The scriptures don't provide modern methods; the Bible is out-of-date.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-02-06   13:26:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

The scriptures don't provide modern methods; the Bible is out-of-date.

Yes they do. Sadly people miss it. It is not the letter of the law that matters but the spirit that counts. You have to read between the lines somewhat. When dealing with the Bible they call that dispensation. Liberals use the term "living document" when talking about the Constitution. I believe they are twisting it to their own ends but in a sense they are correct. Take the part about all men being created equal. "All men" meant something different at that time. However, we interpret it using today's definition.

So how does that apply to the Bible? Take the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". Do we take that literally to mean anything at anytime? Or do we use it as an interpretive moral compass? Killing in self defense is OK as is the state killing for judicial reasons.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-02-06   13:50:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Should have included you in my above post.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-02-06   13:52:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Agreed. I like the way you put that. BTW, it's murder, not kill, in that commandment.

The jews depend on the letter of the law, as well as make up entirely new laws to justify what they want to have justified. They ignore the spirit. Taking the spirit of the law into account is not in their best interests. For proof of that, read the Kol Nidre, that they recite on the day of atonement. That, BTW, is their most important day. www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=340&letter=K

"All vows [], obligations, oaths, and anathemas, whether called '1;onam,' '1;onas,' or by any other name, which we may vow, or swear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this Day of Atonement until the next (whose happy coming we await), we do repent. May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annulled, and void, and made of no effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us. The vows shall not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the oaths be oaths."

You can see at that link how they then try and explain away a sick "prayer" written in plain language. Trust a jew at your peril. Their own words hang them.

Which brings up the ultimate oxymoron judeo-christianity since Christianity is supposedly only concerned with the spirit and jews are obsessed with their laws.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-02-06   14:14:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Trust a jew at your peril.

I married one.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-02-06   15:11:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

If that struck a little too close to home, I'm sorry. Not for expressing my opinion, but for the effect it might have had.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-02-06   16:27:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

If that struck a little too close to home, I'm sorry. Not for expressing my opinion, but for the effect it might have had.

Apology accepted.

I don't think Jews are the problem but the pro-Israel at all costs policy is. Much can be said about Israel's behavior as a country. I would hate to have someone judge the members of this board by the policies of our nations.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-02-06   16:42:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I would hate to have someone judge the members of this board by the policies of our nations.

Very astute, farmfriend. : )

abraxas  posted on  2010-02-06   16:44:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#152. To: abraxas (#150)

Very astute, farmfriend. : )

Thank you.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-02-06 16:47:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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