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Title: Christian Count.....Just Curious
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Published: Feb 2, 2010
Author: AKA
Post Date: 2010-02-02 12:48:21 by A K A Stone
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Views: 4389
Comments: 243
Just curious who would consider themselves a christian. Under this definition. That there is a God and he did write the Bible. Or that it was inspired by him. That his word is perfect and without flaws. That Jesus is Gods only son and the only way to heaven.
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#51. To: Esso (#24)
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
Just ask because it doesn't sound like it. Which version is the perfect one? That is what I asked, because I am somewhat familiar with the translation history of the Bible. So, since you are evidently so familiar with this, since you question my familiarity with it, I'll ask you which one is the perfect "inerrant" version? Now I fully expect you to ignore that question by trying to distract by asking about the "Magna Carta for example? Do you believe that they mean what they say? If so, then why, in contrast? What about "ancient Egyptian writings?" Same questions. "... You won't answer because you can't. That's the real reason why. Because your answer will lead to more questions that you will find somewhat uncomfortable to contemplate and will tend to piss you off. Here it is again: which version is the perfect "inerrant" version?
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Alex Jones is the Robert Tilton of the conspiracy world. ~Mister Clean Live free or deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
I'll take your answer to have been no then. And quit getting so emotional. It's unbecoming. It's a very simple question. Which version of the Bible is the perfect inerrant version? It only takes a one line response. No need to "sum up years of personal study in a single post on a thread for you." What a wonderful distraction that was. Very creative. But not unexpected. See? I told you that you would not answer it. Perhaps you'll reconsider??? For the benefit of the others here? Do it for them, not for me.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Alex Jones is the Robert Tilton of the conspiracy world. ~Mister Clean Live free or deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
No I will not allow that. On the OP I responded to, and I quote: That his word is perfect and without flaws. So, I then asked which version was the perfect version. Then, you responded to me, in a way that made no sense but was an attempt to distract. Anyone can read it to see if I am lying here. It's all out in the open. Then, when I asked again, you attempted to distract some more. So, you named 2. Pick one. Which one is perfect? They aren't the same. Even the almighty KJV, the one most say is the perfect one, has undergone many revisions in both the books included and in the translations made. You say "predetermined that God is not omniscient nor omnipotent". I said no such thing. I never even hinted at it. More distractions. I find this to be typical. It is why I knew that you would not answer the question. Christians make these silly assertions, but when called on it, never respond. They just try and change the topic.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Alex Jones is the Robert Tilton of the conspiracy world. ~Mister Clean Live free or We know that you disbelieve in the Living God and that will rarely if ever (never say never) provide much specific objective or otherwise hard data spawned by your personal knowledge or study of the Bible. So how is it that you're an expert on it/them? Well well well. What have we here? BTW, your position has been made more than clear over the years. Really? I didn't know I have been on this board for that long. How time flies! We know that you disbelieve in the Living God "We"? and that will rarely if ever (never say never) provide much specific objective or otherwise hard data spawned by your personal knowledge or study of the Bible. Answer my question and I will be happy to. I just need to know what the perfect version is. So how is it that you're an expert on it/them? I never said or hinted that I was an expert. Since when does it take an expert? You continue to distract.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Alex Jones is the Robert Tilton of the conspiracy world. ~Mister Clean Live free or As well one is usually confronted with the "If'n you don't believe exactly as I do the you's a heathen" argument. Another one of those interminably boring, close minded, and aggravating lines of discussion. Makes the Truth harder to be known too. Because you'll get people like that on every side of a theological debate; the result is one comes away more confused. I'm only certain right now that my own Catholic faith is somewhat off Track...
Has martial law been discreetly declared in Ireland? http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0114/garda.html "The Emergency Response Unit have been deployed at checkpoints in Dublin over the coming weeks as part of a garda initiative against gang-related crime." I would think that frequently describes the "rank and file" of most religions. People often take up a religion for no reason other than that they were raised in it by their parents etc., ... Given that Christianity, per Ian Punnit's comment on his radio program, has thirty some odd thousand different Christian Sects each with their own interpretation it is not surprising to me that people get confused about what exactly Christian beliefs are. There are some, the Hageeistians come to mind, who even deny the divinity of Christ. If one studies a bit of history and what early Christians believed then what it has become the two are related but not that closely. The Nestorian Church is probably the closest to the original Christianity. Since the Council of Nicea in 325 we've had interpretations, reinterpretations, modifications, and and entire litany of differing personal beliefs hung on to the Christ Mass Tree (a tradition founded upon the Roman Church's attempts to convert the Pagans who celebrated the Winter Solstice). I think Josh Billings aptly summed that up: (from memory so may not be exact): What I do know with certainty, and I will go no further, is: There is a God. Christ once walked the earth delivering a message of love and eternal life. If one leads one's life with consideration of others, and acknowledges the Father to his realm and place then the rest is dogma and details, and frequently mis-interpreted dogma and details.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The first step to finding the truth is to be aware that it exists. Of course then you have to look for it. ;-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
I believe Fr. Malachi Martin came to the same conclusion and thus his book: "Windwept House".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Jeremiah 8:8 How can you say, "we are wise, for we have the law of the Lord," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? Jeremiah 23: 26-27 How long shall this be in teh heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? Yea, they are prophets of deceit in their own heart. Luke 24:25 Then he (Jesus) said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart, to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Ezekiel 14:9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a think, I the Lord have deceived the prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. Scirpture is clear that man is far from infallible in translation. Moreover, the Bible is rife with contradictions. Because a story is told by man, the telling has discrepencies from one to the next. This is obvious in the telling of the story of Jesus, for example. Such as the telling of the Trinity, the bible actually confuses teh Godhead multiple times: John 1:1 Jesus and God are one. John 1:14 Jesus is God incarnate. Mark 1: 1 Jesus is the Son of God. Acts 2:22 Jesus was a man approved by God. John 10:30 Jesus and the Father are one. John 14:28 The Father is greater than Jesus. John 3:17 Jesus does NOT judge or condemn. John 5: 27,30, Acts 10:42, Cirubtguabs 5:10, God the Father has passed it to Jesus to judge. John 8:15 Jesus does not judge mankind but God the Father does. John 9:39 Jesus came into the world to judge. John 12:47 Jesus did not judge mankind but God the Father does. John 5:22 God does NOT judge. Romans 2:2-5, Peter 1:17, Revelation 20: 12-13 God does judge. Jude 1:14-15, God judes with ten thousand of his saints. John 5:24 Believers DO NOT come into judgment. Mathew 12:36-37, 2 Corinthians 5:10, Hebrews 9:27, 2 Timithy 4:1, All persons (believers and non-believers) come into judgement. John 5:31 Jesus says that if he bears witness to himself, ,his testimony is not true. John 8:14 Jesus says that even if he bears witness to himself, his testimony is true. John 6:44 No one can come to Jesus unless he is drawn by the Father. John 10: 27-29 None of Jesus' followers will be lost. 1 Timothy 4:1 Some of them will be lost. Apparently, there was NO harmony among Biblical writers. From this selection of scriputures, one cannot discern if there is or is not a Trinity. One must cherry pick to take a stance. And this is just ONE example........I can provide hundreds more where one writer contradicts another. It's not even the differnces in the texts that cannot be reconciled but the text ITSELF when comparing one writer to the next.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
So there is no perfect version? Final answer? You admit it? See how silly that is? There is no magically preserved perfect translation. They all have errors, which always lead to contradictions and inconsistencies. But you can understand the errors. Start with the American Standard Version of 1901. Then defer to the New American Standard Version or the King James. Then do what I do and cross reference those with the Greek/Hebrew parallel text, also readily available. Why should anyone start with the ASV of 1901 and then defer to the ASV or KJV? Is there something special about them? As to a "perfect" version, depends upon how one defines "perfect." As to being able to glean all that you need to know without conflict from other versions, follow that advice and you'll be fine. I define it as being without error. So you then recommend consulting other less than perfect translations in order to get a perfect translation? That might work in certain areas to help make something more clear, but other areas are totally incompatible. So, lets get down to brass tacks here. Where does that word "hell" come from? Let's just start with that word, and not the doctrine behind it. We can get into that later if you want. Consult your books and tell me. Tell me how it is translated from words that mean grave, pit, gehenna (a valley in Jerusalem where trash was burned, not people), etc. It is inconsistent, and in this one little area, entire denominations build their doctrines on this one error. Tell me also how that word ended up in the OT. Same with "Lucifer". That is a latin word that people think means Satan. It's the king of Babylon. Read it. That is just a start. Then we can get into the "for ever" nonsense in both the OT and NT.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Alex Jones is the Robert Tilton of the conspiracy world. ~Mister Clean Live free or deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
You didn't disappoint me.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Alex Jones is the Robert Tilton of the conspiracy world. ~Mister Clean Live free or deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. I believe that Jesus is exactly who he claimed to be and that he is "the way, the truth and the life."
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
I don't believe anyone is held accountable for more light than they have been shown. "...for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation." (Romans 4:15) ". . . for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (Romans 5:13) This is not any sort of ecumenical theology or "all ways lead to God." Those who have heard the gospel of Jesus Christ and have refused to believe have rejected Him, and, as such, will fall under the condemnation of God, because they have rejected His provision for our disobedience. The atheist and the skeptic are still 'without excuse' (Romans 1:18:20) but that isn't the same thing as the condemnation of those who, by time and circumstance, have never heard of either the Law or the Gospel, but conduct themselves according to the unwritten law in their heart. Those who perpetrate evil, even without the knowledge of the gospel, will likewise be condemned, since they have violated their God-given conscience. But what happens to those who never called upon the Name of Jesus because they never heard the Name of Jesus? God will judge them in righteousness, according to His own Word. They aren't the ones the skeptic needs to worry about.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The above is trivial. I would have hoped that you would have come with far more difficult supposed "contradictions." You, and PSUSA, among many others, will never understand the context and perspective until you seek from a truly seeking heart In fact, I detect that you are being purely argumentative, and frankly, floating child's play arguments if you ask me and that have been addressed infinite times by others in the past ranging from the distant past to the modern past. I know, but not based on some notion that the Bible is an infallible text. As I stated before, I have HUNDREDS of Biblical contradictions up for discussion. The Trinity was posed because there is a divide within Christians regarding this matter, which I view as an obvious divide based upon contradictory texts posed by Biblical writers. If they are all receiving the Holy word of God, then why the contradiction, Eric? This is merely a way to avoid addressing the contradictions presented as you degrade the messenger and the scriptures presented by claiming that both are beneath your superior perceptions. So, you are posing that your selection of texts is more clear and precise than the scriptures I offered for debate. Is this based solely on your choice? After you cherry pick are the other scriptures some how less relevant to the discussion? Have you considered that PSUSA and I come to our understanding FROM THE HEART and not from Biblical text that is witten by humans and contradictory? You sure like to pass judgment on others, Eric. Do you know my heart? Do you know PSUSA's heart? No, you don't, and, in truth, the hearts of others are not for you to judge. The scriptures are clear on that issue. As far as I'm concerned, a good Christian could discard all of the Bible save the Sermon on the Mount and have all the text necessary to be the kind of Christian Jesus came to show them was possible. However, most Christians discard the Sermon on the Mount, as this is a difficult path to embark upon, opting instead to banter about the rest of the contradictory text to justify their own perceptions. Your detections are based on your perceptions, and both are wrong. So, according to you, the Trinity is child's play. You should send a memo to theologians who spend their lives disecting this matter. Merely the fact that the debate continues demonstrates validity in the argument. Next, we can discuss the various ways in which writers of the Bible tell the masses that they can be saved. Unless you deem this matter also as child's play and beneath your self righteous indignation to address. Many contradictions on that issue, much debate in the distant and modern past right up to this current moment. Getting saved may just be child's play from your persepective, if so, just let me know.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Tammy Faye Baker Messner died in 2007.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. I'm an athiest, but I intensely dislike territorial athiests, and the orthodox athiests are just the worst. Jesus was an enlightened man, he would'a had guys like you in line shearing your fuzzy little heads making sweaters.
In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report. Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject. lol.....thank for the laugh Dak.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Go get'em!
Show Me Obama's Birth Certificate!
bunny, bunny, bunny jump
In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report. Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject. Of course then you have to look for it. ;-) Arr! Gotta find the buried treasure! ;)
Has martial law been discreetly declared in Ireland? http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0114/garda.html "The Emergency Response Unit have been deployed at checkpoints in Dublin over the coming weeks as part of a garda initiative against gang-related crime." I hate you both and I wish you had cancer!
In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report. Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject. In 2007, the FBI reported on concern about white supremacists recruiting soldiers, saying "hundreds" of neo-Nazis were in the active military. But in April, a Department of Homeland Security report on extremism that reiterated much the same point was widely criticized by veterans groups and some conservative politicians as being unpatriotic, leading the Justice Department to retract the DHS report. Critics acknowledge that extremism in the Army is a touchy political subject.
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#52. To: buckeroo (#26)
#53. To: purpleman (#28)
#54. To: Lod (#29)
#55. To: Lod (#33)
#56. To: A K A Stone (#37)
#57. To: Itistoolate, A K A Stone (#38)
#58. To: Eric Stratton (#44)
Are you guys familiar with the historicity and translation history of the Bible?
die kill ~~ Me
#59. To: PSUSA (#58)
#60. To: Eric Stratton (#59)
Well, sorry, I cannot sum up years of personal study in a single post on a thread for you.
die kill ~~ Me
#61. To: PSUSA (#60)
#62. To: PSUSA (#60)
#63. To: Eric Stratton (#61)
Allow me to rephrase the question;
die kill ~~ Me
#64. To: Eric Stratton (#62)
BTW, your position has been made more than clear over the years.
die kill ~~ Me
#65. To: Original_Intent (#7)
I refuse to be drawn into theological discussions because the ones posing them inevitably fit Churchills description of a fanatic - as "someone who can't change their mind and won't change the subject".
#66. To: Eric Stratton, noone222, christine, Rotara, TwentyTwelve, wudidiz, all (#46)
But if anything, and while there are many many supposed christians that are woefully inept at describing/explaining why/what they even believe,
They get their "info" from people, such as here, with someone floating some nonsensical notion that is supposedly Biblical yet far from it, yet the context in which it is understood, or even the principle itself, are far from reality or truth yet have been cemented as facts in that person's mind.
"The problem is not what people don't know but what they do know that ain't so."
Most of the most ardent believers that I've come across, including myself, have a religious history but have forsaken it at some point to have become agnostic or otherwise inactive in matters of faith as it were, but have over the years of their lives studied diligently the Scriptures, history otherwise, and have questioned their own existence and come to the only logical conclusion that exists leaving all of the others sounding like trite fairy tales.
#67. To: irishthatcherite (#65)
Makes the Truth harder to be known too. Because you'll get people like that on every side of a theological debate; the result is one comes away more confused. I'm only certain right now that my own Catholic faith is somewhat off Track...
#68. To: PSUSA (#64)
#69. To: Eric Stratton (#55)
Society today, religiously speaking, is a carbon copy of what's gone on for centuries. The Roman Catholic Church today has replaced the same Jewish religious institution that Christ declared "desolate" in Matt. 23. It has rebuilt and refreshed itself.
#70. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#71. To: Eric Stratton (#68)
Then, what you'll notice is how easily explainable any perceived differences in the texts are reconciled.
#72. To: Eric Stratton (#68)
Start with the American Standard Version of 1901. Then defer to the New American Standard Version or the King James.
die kill ~~ Me
#73. To: Original_Intent (#66)
#74. To: PSUSA (#63)
#75. To: Eric Stratton (#74)
die kill ~~ Me
#76. To: Original_Intent (#69)
#77. To: PSUSA (#72)
#78. To: A K A Stone (#0)
Just curious who would consider themselves a christian. Under this definition. That there is a God and he did write the Bible. Or that it was inspired by him. That his word is perfect and without flaws. That Jesus is Gods only son and the only way to heaven.
Lord Acton
#79. To: abraxas (#71)
#80. To: scooter (#36)
Yes and it depends. To whom much is given, much is expected. If you take things literally without any proper context, then you have to come to the conclusion a South American tribe who has never had any contact with the outside world are all condemned to an everlasting Hell because they cannot/did not acknowledge Christ and none are without an excuse. Do you really want to take that stand?
Lord Acton
#81. To: Ferret Mike (#70)
#82. To: Eric Stratton (#79)
Please, allow me to ask however, are you sincerely interested in knowing, or are you simply throwing up stuff that you've heard (as it seems) and purely for purposes of arguing?
#83. To: Eric Stratton (#51)
(Edited)
Be fun to see her, Pelosi, and Hillary at a party. They all seem to be cut from the same cloth.
Lord Acton
#84. To: A K A Stone (#0)
#85. To: Dakmar (#84)
#86. To: Dakmar (#84)
he would'a had guys like you in line shearing your fuzzy little heads making sweaters.
#87. To: Flintlock (#86)
#88. To: Original_Intent (#67)
The first step to finding the truth is to be aware that it exists.
#89. To: irishthatcherite (#88)
(Edited)
#90. To: Flintlock (#86)
(Edited)
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