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Title: Another state to feds: Take your gun regs and stuff 'em -Local governments in massive revolt against rules ordered by Washington
Source:
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URL Source: http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=127490
Published: Mar 13, 2010
Author: By Bob Unruh
Post Date: 2010-03-13 11:29:57 by gengis gandhi
Keywords: None
Views: 348
Comments: 32
Another state to feds: Take your gun regs and stuff 'em Local governments in massive revolt against rules ordered by Washington Posted: March 10, 2010 9:24 pm Eastern By Bob Unruh © 2010 WorldNetDaily Utah has become the third state to adopt a law exempting guns and ammunition made, sold and used in the state from massive federal regulations under the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, and supporters say about 30 more states have some sort of plan for their own exemptions in the works. Officials in Utah say they expect a lawsuit over their direct challenge to Washington if the federal government succeeds in its current case against Montana's law. Gary Marbut of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, who has spearheaded the Montana law, now describes himself as a sort of "godfather" to the national campaign. He confirmed Montana, Tennessee and Utah have enacted such laws. (Story continues below) "Wyoming and South Dakota, they have passed legislation and it's on their governors' desks," he said. "We learned today Oklahoma's House has passed a plan over to the Senate. Idaho's House has just passed it along. Alaska's has passed the House and is in the Senate Judiciary committee," he said. The move is about far more than just the regulation of handguns and shotguns, he said. Larry Klayman "It's about states' rights. Firearms are the vehicle, but the subject is states' rights and an overbearing federal government," he said. He said one of his sources of information for the Montana lawsuit compiled a list of states' rights issues such as identification, sovereignty and gun licensing that was 20 pages long. He confirmed an emerging consensus that the federal government's role in making local decisions needs to be reined in. "It is huge," he said. "We are glad the Firearms Freedom Act can be the point of the spear." There only are about a dozen states that have not at least taken up the issue for discussion. He noted other subjects also have become issues, such as regulations dealing with the sale of alcohol and tobacco. Originally introduced and passed in Montana, the FFA declares that any firearms made and retained in-state are beyond the authority of Congress under its constitutional power to regulate commerce among the states. The Salt Lake Tribune reported yesterday the Utah plan was signed into law by Gov. Gary Herbert. Learn what you can do about your nation. Get "Taking America Back," Joseph Farah's manifesto for sovereignty, self-reliance and moral renewal "There are times when the state needs to push back against continued encroachment from the federal government. Sending the message that we will stand up for a proper balance between the state and federal government is a good thing," said Herbert in a statement. The governor said he recognized the possibility of a lawsuit but said the cost can be minimized. In any event, Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said any case probably would be delayed until Montana's decision is rendered, the newspaper reported. The Utah plan was sponsored by Sen. Margaret Dayton, R-Orem. Dayton said, according to the Tribune, it "illustrates the universal yearning for freedom, and shows the people still feel the spark that inspired our ancestors at Lexington and Valley Forge. My hope is that the march toward tyranny can be turned back with our votes." In Montana, officials filed suit against U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder and others seeking a court order that the federal government stay out of the way of Montana's management of its own firearms within state borders. In a recent filing, the federal government demanded dismissal of the action, explaining it can regulate in-state commerce under the Constitution's Commerce clause. As WND reported, the action was filed by the Second Amendment Foundation and the Montana Shooting Sports Association in U.S. District Court in Missoula, Mont., to validate the principles and terms of the Montana Firearms Freedom Act, which took effect Oct. 3. Marbut argues that the federal government was created by the states to serve the states and the people, and it is time for the states to begin drawing boundaries for the federal government and its agencies. The government's latest filing in the case demands its dismissal, citing a lacking of "standing" for the plaintiffs and the court's lack of "jurisdiction," as well as the Constitution's Commerce Clause. The government filing argues, "The Supreme Court and Ninth Circuit have repeatedly held that even purely intrastate activities, such as those the MFFA purports to exempt from federal law, do affect interstate commerce and thus are within Congress' power to regulate. As a result, even if plaintiffs had standing and jurisdiction existed, plaintiffs' amended complaint fails to state a claim and must be dismissed." The Commerce Clause, however, can be interpreted to have been amended by the 10th Amendment, which is part of the Bill of Rights, adopted subsequent to the U.S. Constitution, Marbut explains. His organization said, "The Commerce Clause was amended – by the 10th Amendment. It is a bedrock principle of jurisprudence that for any conflict between provisions of a co-equal body of law, the most recently enacted must be given deference as the most recent expression of the enacting authority. This principle is ancient. Without this principle, laws could not be amended or repealed." For example, U.S. courts repeatedly affirmed slavery before it ultimately was rejected. There's no question that the components of the Bill of Rights have authority: Just look at the 1st Amendment, Marbut explained. The federal government had written gun dealers in Montana as well as in Tennessee when it adopted its own version of the same law that warned against following the state laws. The letters were distributed to holders of Federal Firearms Licenses. In the Tennessee case, Carson W. Carroll, the assistant director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told dealers the Tennessee Firearms Freedom Act, adopted, "purports to exempt personal firearms, firearms accessories, and ammunition manufactured in the state, and which remain in the state, from most federal firearms laws and regulations." The exemption is not right, the federal agency letter contends. 
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#1. To: gengis gandhi (#0)
Not to be trusted with matches in Hell...
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
This could set up a battle over the "Commerce Clause" the distortion and misuse of which is used as justification for a lot of the Feral Governments unconstitutional activities. Anyone who has studied the issue, and the history of the clause, knows that the government's misuse, and the Supreme Court's twisting of its meaning, has provided pretended justification for all manner of mischief. I don't know what will of this but any resistance to Federal tyranny at the State level is to be applauded and supported. It is after all the United States not the Federal States.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I just spent a few days in Nevada. I noticed they gun advertisements on TV. Very interesting. I also noticed a great looking truck parked in my hotel parking lot. It was a white double cab with the Oath Keepers emblem emblazoned on it.
"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." As I understand the state's position it's simply that if a gun is manufactured within the state, it isn't subject to federal regulation. Is that your take?
I agree with you but what do you think the actual (whether federal POWER trumps states rights or vice versa) outcome will be? Doesn't the issue just boil down to taxation and authority?
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
If the "Commerce Clause" were applied as in original intent yes that is my take. However, under the expansion of the Commerce Clause illegitimately exercised by the Supreme Court it has been interpreted as anything even indirectly affecting interstate commerce. A little history if you'll excuse me (you might be aware of this but others may not): Under the Articles of Confederation there was no such clause and the States truly did operate as independent states within a broader Confederation with a weak central government. New York perceiving New Jersey as a competitor passed tariffs and fees on goods coming on ships with a New Jersey registry. New Jersey retaliated and the Trade War was on. In order to prevent a recurrence of such interstate rivalry and impediments to interstate commerce the new Constitution had inserted a clause reading thusly: ARTICLE I. Section 8: This short clause is the crux of the matter, and the wording is quite clear i.e., it is to allow the Federal Government the sole authority to regulate commerce among the states. However, in practice it has been expansively "interpreted" by the Supreme Court to mean anything affecting commerce which could even remotely, indirectly, affect commerce. It was even used, during WWII, against a man growing his own Wheat, solely for his own use, to forbid him from doing so because it would affect "interstate commerce" in that he would then not buy Wheat brought in from another state. Thus the ruling was that his growing his own Wheat affected "interstate commerce". Here is an article which explores some of it, but excludes some of the more egregious interpretations: Constitutional Conflicts - the "Commerce Clause". In short if the "Commerce Clause" was applied as per original intent the FDA, USDA, Forest Service, and other Federal Entities lose their teeth as they cannot enforce their regulations upon the free citizenry. That is why short of the prospect of a visit from "Jack Ketch" the Supreme Court will find against the States and for the Feral Government.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
It boils down to control, and those who control our government from behind the scenes want a strong Feral Government to be able to enforce their edicts, rules, and regulations upon ALL citizens. A strict interpretation of the Commerce Clause means that they control D.C.. The Shadow Government will not willingly allow that to happen so it sets up an actual situation where the states could stand in open rebellion against Federal edicts. So yes it does boil down to taxation and authority but it has very very broad affects upon individual liberty.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Excellent. Thanks.
My pleasure.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Anyone who has studied the issue, and the history of the clause, knows that the government's misuse, and the Supreme Court's twisting of its meaning, has provided pretended justification for all manner of mischief. I don't know what will of this but any resistance to Federal tyranny at the State level is to be applauded and supported. It is after all the United States not the Federal States. that right there needs to be bumped
What is that organization exactly? Do you have a few moments to clearly elucidate your idea?
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
Article I, Section 8 bump
That is not surprising. LV is Oath Keepers' home base.
What is that organization exactly? Do you have a few moments to clearly elucidate your idea? It is simply those forces acting in darkness behind the scenes to fashion government to its own ends. While there are a variety of forces at play the prime nexus lies in the International Banking Cartel headquartere in the Banking District of London and run ultimately by the Rothschild family and their close kindred cronies. Oh, and "you may fire when ready gridley" the obvious attempt at a set-up was just that - obvious.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Thank you.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I was in Reno but thanks for the information. Not surprising they would make their home if Nevada. The state is growing on me though I think this was my last trip for a while.
"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." ROTFL ... you don't have to be defensive. Actually, when you add up all the direct number [of] government employees, they total 30,000,000 in America. And they vote. And they have clout and lots of it. I think this is what you are really talking about.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
I was in Reno but thanks for the information. Not surprising they would make their home if Nevada. The state is growing on me though I think this was my last trip for a while. Not enough good trout fishing for me. There is some decent fishing in the Sierras but Montana still has the best fishing in the lower 48. However, I hate Montana Winters. I had enough of it as a kid - 9 months of snow and 3 months of cold weather punctuated with the occasional series of summer scorchers. Billings is not bad but it is still only FDA Zone 5 which prevents growing a lot of the stuff I'm used to growing. I would prefer Sacramento, but refuse to live in the People's Republic of California. Besides I have an old girlfriend there which I am avoiding - even after 20 years.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
No, that is not what I meant - that is an effect not a cause. What I meant is exactly what I said: "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Got link?
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes; To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures; To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States; To establish post offices and post roads; To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries; To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court; To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations; To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water; To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; To provide and maintain a navy; To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces; To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof. You worry me with your archaic "bumps."
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
Hi Bucky - busy trying to obscure the issues I see. This is one of my favorite tactics you are playing - the "information deluge" - post a lot of stuff that obscures the main point thus fatiguing the casual reader into not reading the arguments. I see no argument related to your posting and so can only assume that its point was to obscure the existing series of posts. From Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation: "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Always remember that Buckeroo likes to play devil's advocate.
"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." ROTFL ... not only are you defensive ... but you are sensitive, too.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
Perhaps, but I am seeing a persistent pattern in his behavior which is more a matter of disruption than contribution. As here there is often no argument presented but simply the attempt to sidetrack the discussion. Therefore, it is allowable, even reasonable, to suspect other motives in his actions.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
ROTFL ... not only are you defensive ... but you are sensitive, too. Oh, gee, I am so stricken, I shall just have to bury my head in a crying towel - you have found me out - I am as a teenager with raging hormones. Woe is me. /Sarcasm From: Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Derb nub it FF.....you didn't even look me up. I would have bought you a beer you know. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Where on Earth have you found that agreement is some sort of discussion? You call me a distractor but look at whom has dropped the ball ..... just because I confront you in ways and methods to learn your opinion.
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
Oh man, had no clue you were up that way. I've been up there ever couple of weeks. Was probably my last trip though as they are changing my territory again and highering a part time person to cover that area. I got stuck coming back over the hill this time and had to not only buy expensive chains but install and uninstall them myself. Sigh.
"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." Where on Earth have you found that agreement is some sort of discussion? You call me a distractor but look at whom has dropped the ball ..... just because I confront you in ways and methods to learn your opinion. GONNNNNNNNNNNNG!! False. Comments such as: Are not disagreements - it is a pathetic attempt at ridicule. I don't play that game other than to name it and illustrate it for what it is - an avoidance of substantive discussion.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Anyone who has studied the issue, and the history of the clause, knows that the government's misuse, and the Supreme Court's twisting of its meaning, has provided pretended justification for all manner of mischief. This whole idea that members of the USSC can vote to overturn more than 100 years of legal precedent as they did in Wickard v. Filburn IMHO proves beyond a reasonable doubt that we are a nation of men and not a nation of laws. We are a nation of men being ruled by laws which are completely arbitrary and based upon the political leanings of those sitting on the USSC. This makes us no better than a banana republic. I don't know what will of this but any resistance to Federal tyranny at the State level is to be applauded and supported. It is after all the United States not the Federal States. If the Republicrats and Democans have their way we will be the "State of America."
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
OK, lets start this over again, since you take offense that I posted section 8 in its entirety. The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow money on the credit of the United States; To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes; To establish a uniform rule of naturalization, and uniform laws on the subject of bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures; To provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States; To establish post offices and post roads; To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries; To constitute tribunals inferior to the Supreme Court; To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations; To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water; To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years; To provide and maintain a navy; To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces; To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions; To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, reserving to the states respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten miles square) as may, by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dockyards, and other needful buildings;--And To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof. "Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
Larry Klayman
#2. To: gengis gandhi (#0)
#3. To: Original_Intent, gengis gandhi (#2)
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831
#4. To: Original_Intent (#2)
#5. To: Original_Intent (#2)
This could set up a battle over the "Commerce Clause" the distortion and misuse of which is used as justification for a lot of the Feral Governments unconstitutional activities.
#6. To: Jethro Tull, farmfriend, all (#4)
As I understand the state's position it's simply that if a gun is manufactured within the state, it isn't subject to federal regulation. Is that your take?
...To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;...
#7. To: buckeroo (#5)
Doesn't the issue just boil down to taxation and authority?
#8. To: Original_Intent (#6)
#9. To: Jethro Tull (#8)
#10. To: Original_Intent (#2)
This could set up a battle over the "Commerce Clause" the distortion and misuse of which is used as justification for a lot of the Feral Governments unconstitutional activities.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#11. To: Original_Intent (#7)
...The Shadow Government....
#12. To: Original_Intent (#6)
hamiltonians LOVE the "Commerce Clause" applications / bastardizations...
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#13. To: farmfriend (#3)
I just spent a few days in Nevada. I noticed they gun advertisements on TV. Very interesting. I also noticed a great looking truck parked in my hotel parking lot. It was a white double cab with the Oath Keepers emblem emblazoned on it.
#14. To: buckeroo (#11)
...The Shadow Government....
#15. To: Rotara (#10)
#16. To: echo5sierra (#13)
That is not surprising. LV is Oath Keepers' home base.
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831
#17. To: Original_Intent (#14)
(Edited)
Oh, and "you may fire when ready gridley" the obvious attempt at a set-up was just that - obvious.
It is simply those forces acting in darkness behind the scenes to fashion government to its own ends. While there are a variety of forces at play the prime nexus lies in the International Banking Cartel headquartere in the Banking District of London and run ultimately by the Rothschild family and their close kindred cronies.
#18. To: farmfriend, echo5sierra (#16)
That is not surprising. LV is Oath Keepers' home base.
#19. To: buckeroo (#17)
Actually, when you add up all the direct number [of] government employees, they total 30,000,000 in America. And they vote. And they have clout and lots of it. I think this is what you are really talking about.
While there are a variety of forces at play the prime nexus lies in the International Banking Cartel headquartere in the Banking District of London and run ultimately by the Rothschild family and their close kindred cronies.
#20. To: Original_Intent (#19)
#21. To: Rotara (#12)
Article I, Section 8 bump
Section 8.
#22. To: buckeroo, Rotara, christine, all (#21)
"...A rational person participating as one interested in the truth will evaluate that chain of evidence and conclude either that the links are solid and conclusive, that one or more links are weak and need further development before conclusion can be arrived at, or that one or more links can be broken, usually invalidating (but not necessarily so, if parallel links already exist or can be found, or if a particular link was merely supportive, but not in itself key) the argument. The game is played by raising issues which either strengthen or weaken (preferably to the point of breaking) these links. It is the job of a disinfo artist to interfere with these evaluation... to at least make people think the links are weak or broken when, in truth, they are not... or to propose alternative solutions leading away from the truth. Often, by simply impeding and slowing down the process through disinformation tactics, a level of victory is assured because apathy increases with time and rhetoric...."
17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
#23. To: Original_Intent (#22)
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831
#24. To: Original_Intent (#22)
Hi Bucky - busy trying to obscure the issues I see.
#25. To: farmfriend (#23)
Always remember that Buckeroo likes to play devil's advocate.
#26. To: buckeroo (#24)
Hi Bucky - busy trying to obscure the issues I see.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'
#27. To: farmfriend (#16)
I was in Reno but thanks for the information.
#28. To: Original_Intent (#26)
shall just have to bury my head in a crying towel
#29. To: abraxas (#27)
Derb nub it FF.....you didn't even look me up. I would have bought you a beer you know. : )
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831
#30. To: buckeroo (#28)
shall just have to bury my head in a crying towel
"ROTFL ... not only are you defensive ... but you are sensitive, too. "
#31. To: Original_Intent (#2)
This could set up a battle over the "Commerce Clause" the distortion and misuse of which is used as justification for a lot of the Feral Governments unconstitutional activities.
#32. To: Original_Intent (#30)
Section 8.
What don't you like about section 8? It is the US Constitution in part and represents some of the framework that empowers Congress.
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