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Title: Video Shot by Pilot Flying Along side several Chemtrail Planes
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Published: Mar 13, 2010
Author: kevin604bc
Post Date: 2010-03-13 16:18:34 by wudidiz
Keywords: None
Views: 20927
Comments: 715
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#20. To: Original_Intent (#17)
if winds aloft are 100 mph, and two planes, flying crosswind on the same heading, cross through the exact same airspace at 15 minute intervals, what's gonna happen to their contrails? how many miles will their contrails be apart... hint: what's 100 divided by four?
oh. have you been up there to make first-hand observations, or are you merely quoting some loony-tunes "chemtrail" site?
You think I don't know the difference between normal air traffic and something that isn't normal? I don't live in Kansas where air lanes might criss cross, if that's what you're thinking. Try to accept the fact that some people ARE perhaps a bit more observant than yourself and do notice things that aren't normal.
how many gallons of "chemtrail" substance, whatever that substance is supposed to be, would be required to leave a visible "chemtrail" a hundred miles long...? especially in view of the fact that 747 air tankers with a load of 24,000 gallons can only drop a swath 5 miles long?
are you a professional pilot operating aircraft at altitudes at which contrails can form? are airplanes required to stop at every major airport they pass? or might they overfly them?
I think it should be, at this point, apparent to a neutral observer that it is your intent to argue the disinformation line rather than to review the data and see what conclusion the actual observations lead to. Whenever I see some attempt to argue by use of Loaded Words such as "loony-tunes" to characterize something without examining the evidence or providing any logical justification I immediatelly call Bullshit. BULLSHIT! Examples: "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
especially in view of the fact that 747 air tankers with a load of 24,000 gallons can only drop a swath 5 miles long? Hmmm? The further we go the more disinformation tactics you display: Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation 14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10. Example: 'Since you know so much, if James Earl Ray is as innocent as you claim, who really killed Martin Luther King, how was it planned and executed, how did they frame Ray and fool the FBI, and why?' Proper response: You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. It is not necessary to completely resolve any full matter in order to examine any relative attached issue. Discussion of any evidence of Ray's innocence can stand alone to serve truth, and any alternative solution to the crime, while it may bolster that truth, can also stand alone. Why do you refuse to address the issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 14 - demand complete solutions)? 10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent is or was involved with the original source. 4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
in other words, you cant defend your logic, so you have to veer off into a discussion of semantics. not good
No, it is called L-O-G-I-C or otherwise known as sound reasoning. If one applies the Scientific Method then one forms a conclusion based upon evidence. Photographs are evidence. Known physical properties of contrails is evidence. Characterizations i.e., "loaded words" is NOT evidence. Therefore your argument founders on the unsoundness of the attempts to divert from the issues, avoidance of the evidence, and the use of negative language as a tool to persuade by applying a negative label. All of the foregoing methods you have used are known, and categorized, under a term in use for well over 100 years i.e., Logical Fallacies and the newer term invented to describe government, and PR Agency, tactics of seeding knowingly false data and false arguments i.e., disinformation.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
You don't need to be a professional pilot to know that contrails are formed by hot exhaust gas from jet engines hitting cold moist air. You don't need to be a professional pilot to know they don't form out of the planes ailerons ... Do you think you need to be a professional meterologist to know when it's raining outside?
Perhaps to you this is normal air traffic... Good photo and valid point. Contrails form from the Jet's exhaust and from the water vapor in the exhaust, and ONLY under specific conditions. Under no conditions do they form from the ailerons.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
...of contrails... unless "chemtrails" have been photoshopped into the picture. you've been unable to refute logical explanations of how supposed "chemtrail" patterns can occur as the result of normal air traffic. you've been unable to explain how a 747 loaded to the gills is unable to produce a "chemtrail" of retardant that's longer than five miles. you're unable to point to "chemtrail" support infrastructure that would be necessary to mount your "chemtrail" operation.
perhaps you've never been in a holding pattern at altitude to conserve fuel before you commenced your approach. perhaps you've never been instructed by ATC to "do a left 360 for spacing"
BTW, one other aspect of chemtrails are the clouds they form. I've seen bright greenish and reddish hues in those clouds first hand, similar to the image below... perhaps you've never heard of "time on station" and have never observed fighter bombers loitering until the FACs came up with a target for them.
Planes don't fly high enough in a holding pattern to leave contrails, for one. For two, it's apparent from the image that the plane that left that trail was in a fairly tight 360 degree turn, whereas an actual holding pattern would result in a much shallower turn spread out over many miles around a metropolitan area.
oh. rainbows are evidence that god was doing "chemtrails" thousands of years ago, huh?
how do you know that? are you a professional pilot?
Some people wouldn't believe it if you actually flew them close enough to the sprayer to see it first hand and up close, they'd still find a way to deny it. Anything that changes a person's world view is hard for them to accept, whether it be evidence of the impossibility of the official 9/11 legend, or chemtrails.
You don't need to be a pilot to understand science.
...of contrails... unless "chemtrails" have been photoshopped into the picture. you've been unable to refute logical explanations of how supposed "chemtrail" patterns can occur as the result of normal air traffic. you've been unable to explain how a 747 loaded to the gills is unable to produce a "chemtrail" of retardant that's longer than five miles. you're unable to point to "chemtrail" support infrastructure that would be necessary to mount your "chemtrail" operation. Again you resort to false logic in an attempt to divert from the subject. A. It is not necessary to prove the entire question to observe that something unusual is happening which is contrary to known information. B. Who said anything about chemical fire retardent. As far as I can tell the Chemtrails are not a firefighting phenomena so it is an unknown as to how much of the formula is required to produce the trails. And we do not need to know that to observe that they do in fact exist and occur under circumstances, and at altitudes, which would ordinarily NOT form contrails. C. And your third point is again unnecessary to answer to be able to observe that something unusual is happening. At this point all you have produced are disinformation tactics and attempted diversions sprinkled with logical fallacies. You are a shill. Whom do you work for?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I'm talking about oily multicolored shades in clouds formed by chemtrails, not rainbows smartass.
are we to assume that you have flown close enough to the sprayer to see it first hand? can you provide proof of the sprayer's existence, along with evidence of the infrastructure that would be needed to support this "chemtrail" project?
here's a question for the two of you... what percentage of observed contrails are actually "chemtrails"?
You don't need to be a pilot to understand science. At this point all the poor shill can do is just keep repeating the same disinformation tactics. Being a shill he/she cannot engage in a substantive analysis but can only divert and use standard disinformation ploys which we have both seen a thousand times. That a disinformation shill would be assigned to try to do that is a prima facie case that the Chemtrail data is valid, and that the lid is still on to keep it suppressed and out of general public knowledge.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
First off, you provide no link that backs your assertion. However, it doesn't take a lot of brains to understand the difference between dumping loads of dry flame retardant powder and an aerosol or fog sprayed out at a MUCH MUCH lower flow rate.
Maximum holding speeds are established in order to keep aircraft within the protected holding area during their one-minute inbound and outbound legs. For civil aircraft (not military) in the United States, these airspeeds are: [1] * Up to 6,000 feet (1,800 m) MSL: 200 knots (370 km/h; 230 mph) The ICAO Maximum holding speeds: * Up to 14000 ft: 230kts what percentage of observed contrails are actually "chemtrails"? How many Angels can fit on the head of a pin? Each occurrence has to be analyzed on its own merits and compared against known good data. You are attempting to pose an unaswerable question to play "Gotcha". I don't play "Gotcha".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
For one, I HAVE seen the effects of the sprayers, and for two, I HAVE viewed the aircraft myself with binoculars and seen that the trails were not being formed by the engines, but from somewhere towards the rear of the craft, and not inline with the exhaust of the engines. Perhaps you can ask someone you know to go sneak onto whatever classified airbase is launching these aircraft, take some pictures, and get back to us. Get real bud.
First off, you provide no link that backs your assertion. evergreen propaganda isnt good enough for you, huh?
how many feet does it take water vapor to condense when it's emitted from an engine that's traveling 600 mph?
Perhaps our shill can explain why a little tiny crop dusting plane can lay down multiple rows of chemicals from that itty bitty plane which is much smaller than a "747"? Based on the reasoning he is trying to imply that's impossible. You need a 747 to dust crops. LOL!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
how long does the swath last, how often the the plane have to reload? and, compared to a 747, do you imagine you'd be able to see a cropduster if it was at 40,000 feet?
Clear evidence you are losing the argument, OI. Why are you so defensive today?
"Government exists to protect us from each other. Where government has gone beyond its limits is in deciding to protect us from ourselves." -- Ronald Reagan, circa 1977
Ok, but we're not talking about powder being dumped out of the plane to put out fires, we're talking about an aerosol or fog being released at a MUCH lower flow rate. Do you understand the difference between dumping huge amounts of powder and spraying a fine mist or fog that consists of minute liquid particles?
He's trying to equate dry bulk powder to fine aerosol mist and fog. Sort of like comparing oranges to grains of sand.
Hi Bucky - here to play back-up for your compadre? Do you have anything intelligent to bring to the table? Maybe some evidence as opposed to Argumentum Ad Hominem?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
so such a miniscule amount of spray would create such a massive trail that it would be visible from 40,000 feet.
One other aspect that is not being considered is the chemical properties of the mist or fog being delivered, and how it reacts to air and/or water vapor.
Well you CAN see contrails can't you? Apparently it IS possible to see those, you admit that at least, correct? If the substance being sprayed can react chemically with the water vapor or the air itself, it very well COULD, and apparently IS visible.
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#21. To: Original_Intent (#19)
Chemtrails are often laid at altitudes well below the altitude required to produce the freezing temperatures needed to form a standard contrail
#22. To: groundresonance (#18)
here's a high altitude IFR enroute chart of federal airways.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#23. To: Original_Intent (#19)
#24. To: FormerLurker (#22)
(Edited)
You think I don't know the difference between normal air traffic and something that isn't normal?
#25. To: groundresonance, FormerLurker, wudidiz (#21)
(From "The Logical Fallacies entry on Loaded Words): Exposition:
A word or phrase is "loaded" when it has a secondary, evaluative meaning in addition to its primary, descriptive meaning. When language is "loaded", it is loaded with its evaluative meaning. A loaded word is like a loaded gun, and its evaluative meaning is the bullet.
Unloaded Loaded
Plant Weed
Animal Beast While few words have no evaluative overtones, "plant" is a primarily descriptive term. "Weed", in contrast, has essentially the same descriptive meaning as "plant", but a negative evaluative meaning, as well. A weed is a plant of which we disapprove.
Loaded language is not inherently fallacious, otherwise most poetry would commit this fallacy. However, it is often a logical boobytrap, which may cause one to leap to an unwarranted evaluative conclusion. The fallacy is committed either when an arguer attempts to use loaded words in place of an argument, or when an arguee makes an evaluation based on the colorful language in which an argument is clothed, rather than on the merits of the argument itself.
Loaded language is a subfallacy of Begging the Question, because to use loaded language fallaciously is to assume an evaluation that has not been proved, thereby failing to fulfill the burden of proof. For this reason, Jeremy Bentham dubbed this fallacy "Question-Begging Epithets". ...
#26. To: groundresonance, FormerLurker, wudidiz (#23)
how many gallons of "chemtrail" substance, whatever that substance is supposed to be, would be required to leave a visible "chemtrail" a hundred miles long...?
#27. To: Original_Intent (#25)
BULLSHIT!
#28. To: groundresonance, wudidiz, randge, FormerLurker (#27)
#29. To: groundresonance, Original_Intent (#24)
are you a professional pilot operating aircraft at altitudes at which contrails can form?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#30. To: groundresonance (#24)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#31. To: FormerLurker (#29)
#32. To: Original_Intent (#28)
(Edited)
Photographs are evidence.
#33. To: FormerLurker (#30)
Perhaps to you this is normal air traffic...
#34. To: groundresonance (#24)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#35. To: FormerLurker (#30)
#36. To: groundresonance (#33)
perhaps you've never been in a holding pattern at altitude to conserve fuel before you commenced your approach.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#37. To: FormerLurker (#34)
#38. To: FormerLurker (#36)
Planes don't fly high enough in a holding pattern to leave contrails, for one.
#39. To: Original_Intent (#31)
Under no conditions do they form from the ailerons.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#40. To: groundresonance (#38)
are you a professional pilot?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#41. To: groundresonance (#32)
Photographs are evidence.
#42. To: groundresonance (#37)
rainbows are evidence that god was doing "chemtrails" thousands of years ago, huh?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#43. To: FormerLurker (#39)
Some people wouldn't believe it if you actually flew them close enough to the sprayer
#44. To: Original_Intent (#41)
#45. To: FormerLurker, groundresonance, wudidiz, randge, all (#40)
are you a professional pilot?
#46. To: groundresonance, Original_Intent (#32)
you've been unable to explain how a 747 loaded to the gills is unable to produce a "chemtrail" of retardant that's longer than five miles.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#47. To: groundresonance, all (#38)
wiki -
* From 6,001 to 14,000 ft (4,300 m) MSL: 230 kn (426 km/h; 265 mph)
* Above 14000 ft MSL: 265 kn (491 km/h; 305 mph)
* 14000 ft to 20000 ft: 240kts
* 20000 ft to 34000 ft: 265kts
* Above 34000 ft: M0.83
#48. To: groundresonance, wudidiz, randge, FormerLurker (#44)
here's a question for the two of you...
#49. To: groundresonance (#43)
are we to assume that you have flown close enough to the sprayer to see it first hand?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#50. To: FormerLurker (#46)
(Edited)
you've been unable to explain how a 747 loaded to the gills is unable to produce a "chemtrail" of retardant that's longer than five miles.
#51. To: FormerLurker (#49)
somewhere towards the rear of the craft
#52. To: FormerLurker, groundresonance, wudidiz, randge, all (#49)
#53. To: Original_Intent (#52)
Perhaps our shill can explain why a little tiny crop dusting plane can lay down multiple rows of chemicals from that itty bitty plane which is much smaller than a "747"?
#54. To: Original_Intent (#52)
Perhaps our shill...
#55. To: groundresonance (#50)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#56. To: Original_Intent (#52)
Based on the reasoning he is trying to imply that's impossible. You need a 747 to dust crops. LOL!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#57. To: buckeroo (#54)
#58. To: FormerLurker (#55)
an aerosol or fog being released at a MUCH lower flow rate.
#59. To: Original_Intent (#52)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#60. To: groundresonance (#58)
so such a miniscule amount of spray would create such a massive trail that it would be visible from 40,000 feet.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
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