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Title: CONTRAIL vs CHEMTRAIL 101
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Published: Apr 11, 2008
Author: truthseeker1922
Post Date: 2010-03-18 15:43:02 by wudidiz
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Views: 1403
Comments: 101
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#61. To: All (#60)
Meanwhile, back in the real world....
here's piece of a IFR_high_altitude_en_route_chart... IFR high altitude en route chart section crisscrossing can be explained by planes bypassing navaid stations, or by planes who've filed flight plans "direct"... planes which use GPS, loran, ADF (including commerical AM radio stations), inertial navigation or other navigation systems that are independent of ground- based navaids.
google image Results 1 - 21 of about 201,000 for high altitude enroute chart
something else that ought to be mentioned, especially if you live in central texas: texas is infested with military flight schools. very few people are "natural" pilots... most pilots have to be trained in formation flying, combat tactics and manuevers, instrument approaches, everything... for instance, if you're practicing instrument approaches, you will practice at high altitude so you dont gum the works up for people who actually want to land at the airport you're practicing on... not to mention that jets get lots better mileage at high altitudes. all this training activity can result in otherwise nonsensical-appearing flight patterns and contrails.
See christine, you apparently never noticed all those trails in the sky till you read about it on the Internet, and groundresonance just taught you about what your sky looks like, with all those jets flying at high altitudes, even though the chemtrails you're seeing are probably at 10,000 feet or less...
for what it's worth, from Moving Targets Forums > References > Contrails In the USAF the brevity term for being in the cons was "Marking", as in "Conan 2, bring it down, you're marking." As we entered the MOA or Warning Area to set up for a practice long range fight we'd have one of our wingmen "light the cans" and climb up to check it (the weather liars aren't always entirely accurate). As soon as he started to "mark" in the climb, one of the other guys would call "Marking" to clue him to report his altitude as you can't see it easily from the cockpit itself (they start a few hundred feet directly behind you usually). Conversely, as he climbed out of the cons, a flight member would call "Stop mark", the reply,"340." Armed with that info, when "committing" out of the CAP, we would go min burner (to save gas) to climb up through the cons above 34,000 so that the bad guys couldn't see us as we approached them from 60-70 miles away. This also serves to increase the range of your missiles as you get faster and higher up in the thinner air, and as well your fuel consumption is significantly less at altitude. Typically, the cons will begin in the mid 20s and end in the mid to high 30s, but they can stretch up into the 40s if atmospheric conditions are right - I had a wingie marking at 49,000 at Nellis once (very rare) when we (Alaska F- 15Cs) were trying to set up a difficult 3 group "Hi-lo stack" problem simulating MiG-29s against heater only armed F-16 students and IPs from the USAF Weapons School back in '93 (I was out of them at 52,000). Six of us against eight of them, but four of theirs were bomb laden strikers. The problem was very difficult - we slaughtered them and the poor student leading the mission had to re-do the ride. They initially saw my wingie in the high cons and got overly concerned with him and thus didn't see a lower Eagle who'd done some good maneuvering with chaff. He ended up 15,000 feet right over the "battle box" of the 4 strikers down in the weeds trying to hide behind mountains as they ingressed to their target. He "popped" all four as he dove down on them in less than 30 seconds then added insult to injury by gunning one of the other Vipers only minutes later - a simulated "Ace in a day".
So are you still trying to sell the idea that the high altitude aircraft leaving the small contrail in the video was actually flying lower than the aircraft that left the huge chemtrail?
all i'm trying to sell is a rational approach to this controversy. if there's a mystery, we have to start somewhere, dont we? and the first place to start is: finding out if there's really a mystery at all. so far, everything you guys have posted has been completely lacking in facts... so nobody can tell, from what you've posted, if there's a mystery or not... ...not only that, but everything you've posted can be explained by the laws of chemistry and physics that cause contrails, so we dont have to trot out out this "chemtrail" baloney at all. so the burden of proof lies with you ...you have to come up with evidence of an existing "chemtrail" that cant be explained by the chemical and physical science of contrails... so far, you've failed miserably to provide proof of anything except your gullibility and bullheadedness.
So do you claim that the high altitude aircraft was flying lower or higher than the aircraft that formed the larger trail?
since you guys are unable to provide altitude data from either airplane, we dont know which plane was the "high altitude aircraft", do we?
I don't think anyone here works for the FAA and has access to flight data, radar logs, or other such information pertaining to the video in question. So we can only apply scientific technique in evaluating what we CAN see. It is apparent that the aircraft leaving the normal contrail is flying at an altitude of between 30,000 and 35,000 feet, is it not?
Did you watch the full video BTW? The lower trail is VERY low on the horizon, MUCH lower than a high altitude trail would be, where the high altitude aircraft is significantly higher in the sky than the lower altitude trail, which arcs down under the tree cover while the high altitude jet is far above it.
we have no way of knowing. that plane creating the small contrail may be down around 20,000', just entering air in which contrails form... not only that, but that could be a very small twin-engine jet, with a wingspan five times smaller than that of the wide contrail plane, and it might be creating only 1/10th of the water that the big contrail jet is creating. or the small contrail plane could be at 35,000 feet, just leaving air where contrails form. we have no way of knowing, since you guys have not provided us with data.
the altitude of the sun is supposedly 93 million miles, and once or twice a day, it comes pretty close to the horizon.
Well there's water in the ocean too, but that doesn't mean I'm swimming in it right now. Man, you are a master of obfuscuation aren't you... The fact is, we are not talking about the sun, we are talking about TWO trails in the sky, one being left by an aircraft that MUST be at a higher altitude than the larger trail due to its position in the sky in relation to the horizon and to the larger trail. Just from your tap dancing it's obvious you're not interested in really finding out the facts, you're here to confuse whatever facts we can determine. I'm surprised you're not trying to claim the contrails are actually formed by starships, since we can see stars, and those stars are in the sky.
Do you think it'd be -43 C at 20,000 feet over Van Nuys, California?
which is higher... the sun or the seagull?
well, we have no data pertaining to that particular day, do we? so we dont know.
Is the sun a seagull? If it were, then the seagull would be higher, but since it's not, then it's an invalid comparison. The fact is, the video shows TWO TRAILS, which YOU claim are BOTH normal CONTRAILS. Since you claim that they are the same phenomenon, then it IS a valid comparison to make between them.
The lower sun is VERY low on the horizon, MUCH lower than the seagull.
Why don't you get some data on that, since you're the one claiming that it can get down to 45 degrees F below zero at 20,000 feet over Van Nuys. BTW, are you aware that Mount McKinley in Alaska (20,320 feet) has a weather station at the 19,000 foot level, and the lowest temperature in July was -22.9 F? I'd say July in Alaska is probably a bit colder still than ANY time of year in Van Nuys, CA.
Uh huh, and when it's nighttime, then it ran away and won't come back, eh?
well, at 00Z 21 Mar 2010 in san diego, it was -17.5 C at 20,000'... and at 28,000 feet, over san diego, it was -34.4 C. sorry, but san diego seems to be as close as i can get to van nuys on that particular site.
According to you, we can't tell the height or relative distance of any of these objects in relation to one another, since we have no data other than what's in the picture. They might all be at the same height, and we can't tell which one's closer, according to your logic... and at 28,000 feet, over san diego, it was -34.4 C. Well there you go, it's IMPOSSIBLE for contrails to form at those temperatures.
it's becoming obvious that you have no interest at all in doing your homework. since i have better things to do than babysit you, i'm gonna let you go.
Thanks for admitting that you were just bullshitting us, and that since I made it obvious that you were NOT going to bullshit me, you simply gave up and ran.
for those of you who are curious about temperatures and pressures at various altitudes above your location, here's a site that has that information. you will need to convert altitude in meters to altitude in feet: here's a meters to feet conversion gizmo. you may want to convert centigrade temperatures to fahrenheit: here's a converter. here's a link to appleman charts. here are the questions that need to be answered it we're to understand the original video:
Your questions are bullshit, since it's apparent the smaller contrail is being formed by an aircraft OVER 30,000 feet high, and the fact is, the larger trail is five times larger, so with all sorts of fudge factors involved, it's at MOST 20,000 feet high, without using improbable fudge factors, more like 8000 feet high, especially in terms of it's arc over the horizon in the video. And there's no way in hell you'll see a contrail form at 20,000 feet or less over Van Nuys due to the air temperature at those altitudes, so that trail is NOT a contrail.
Actually though, that high altitude aircraft does NOT appear to be a small business jet, so its contrail SHOULD be roughly the same actual width or greater than the lower trail, so that WOULD make the lower trail 1/5 (if the same size aircraft) or LOWER (if the lower trail was formed by a smaller aircraft) than the smaller trail's altitude, but since it's impossible for the lower trail to BE a contrail, then who knows. Judging from relative angles across the entire video, I stand by my estimate of 8000 feet, plus or minus 2000.
since i have better things to do than babysit you, i'm gonna let you go. FYI, Lurker thinks aliens ships are in very close orbit around the Sun. Some people are just plain nuts.
God is always good!
Eat shit Ricky, it's apparent you support those who are here to shill for the government.
BTW Ricky, why don't you tell us your feelings on how the Earth was created, and how long it's been here...
Do you think the earths rotation would have anything to do with these contrail patterns? Since they are aiming for flying over / to fixed points on the earth, and the earth spins more or less independently from the atmosphere, then you will get parallel lines and X intersections. Just an idea.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Live free or It took some time for me to get under his skin. You did it in one post! Congrats! ;)
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Live free or Movements of air in the atmosphere and water in the ocean are notable examples of this behavior: rather than flowing directly from areas of high pressure to low pressure, as they would on a non-rotating planet, winds and currents tend to flow to the right of this direction north of the equator, and to the left of this direction south of the equator. This effect is responsible for the rotation of large cyclones Coriolis effect wikipedia looks like coriolis causes the wind to curve, so contrails embedded in the atmosphere would curve along with the wind. i dont know if it happens on a small enough scale that you'd be able to spot those curvatures from the ground, though... this judging from satellite photos of persistent contrails, which seem to be straight... if a long contrail persisted long enough, maybe we'd be able to see some curvature from space. or maybe the rotation is so massive that a contrail embedded in the air mass stays straight. dont know.
I dont think we are writing about the same thing here. I'm not writing about curvature. Say you are flying from KC, MO to Houston. That is more or less north and south. You take off at 9am. Another plane takes off at 9:30, same flight plan. The earth will rotate X distance, west to east, in 30 minutes. To my way of thinking you will have parallel contrails with those 2 planes. The planes fly over the same ground, but not through the same atmosphere since the earth and the atmosphere are more or less independent. This would lay down 2 parallel contrails X distance apart. Another reason for parallel trails, if 2 planes are flying together, is in keeping proper distance between aircraft heading in the same direction.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Live free or the independence of the earth from its atmosphere is measured as wind velocity.
I can see that being a factor, but is that an absolute statement of fact? Wind velocity also has to do with high and low pressure systems etc. OK, my example of 30 minutes would be too long in my example, using your pic, even though the pic is of parallel contrails according to the file name. Perhaps 5 minutes or less would be better. The more east/west you fly the tighter the contrails would be. Thanks! Once I really get into this, I realize how much I don't know about weather etc. It's an interesting science.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Live free or it was hands down the most universally despised subject in flight school. it's complicated and it's boring... ...and for a helicopter pilot who is the next thing to a john deere tractor driver, it's useless... mainly because helicopters are working under the weather, and your forecast consists of getting up before daylight and looking out the window to see if it's raining or blowing or snowing too hard to work.
I can see how it would be despised, if it wasn't even a factor in what you do. It reminds me of the courses I was forced to take to just get a associates degree, that had exactly nothing to do with that field. I guess teachers in these subjects had their own welfare racket going.
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Live free or
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#62. To: christine (#59)
(Edited)
#63. To: All (#62)
(Edited)
#64. To: christine (#59)
(Edited)
#65. To: christine, groundresonance (#64)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#66. To: christine (#59)
As a 20 year fighter pilot I can attest to his offering regarding fighter pilots getting the meteorological info of where "the cons" will be before stepping out to fly.
#67. To: groundresonance (#66)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#68. To: FormerLurker (#67)
(Edited)
are you still trying to sell
#69. To: groundresonance (#68)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#70. To: FormerLurker (#69)
you claim that the high altitude aircraft was flying lower or higher than the aircraft that formed the larger trail?
#71. To: groundresonance (#70)
since you guys are unable to provide altitude data from either airplane, we dont know which plane was the "high altitude aircraft", do we?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#72. To: groundresonance (#70)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#73. To: FormerLurker (#71)
(Edited)
It is apparent that the aircraft leaving the normal contrail is flying at an altitude of between 30,000 and 35,000 feet, is it not?
#74. To: FormerLurker (#72)
The lower trail is VERY low on the horizon, MUCH lower than a high altitude trail
#75. To: groundresonance (#74)
the altitude of the sun is supposedly 93 million miles, and once or twice a day, it comes pretty close to the horizon.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#76. To: groundresonance (#73)
that plane creating the small contrail may be down around 20,000',
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#77. To: FormerLurker (#75)
#78. To: FormerLurker (#76)
Do you think it'd be -43 C at 20,000 feet over Van Nuys, California?
#79. To: groundresonance (#77)
which is higher... the sun or the seagull?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#80. To: FormerLurker (#79)
The lower trail is VERY low on the horizon, MUCH lower than a high altitude trail
#81. To: groundresonance (#78)
well, we have no data pertaining to that particular day, do we?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#82. To: groundresonance (#80)
The lower sun is VERY low on the horizon, MUCH lower than the seagull.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#83. To: FormerLurker (#81)
(Edited)
Why don't you get some data
#84. To: groundresonance (#80)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#85. To: groundresonance (#83)
well, at 00Z 21 Mar 2010 in san diego, it was -17.5 C at 20,000'...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#86. To: FormerLurker (#82)
#87. To: groundresonance (#86)
since i have better things to do than babysit you, i'm gonna let you go.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#88. To: All (#86)
(Edited)
#89. To: groundresonance (#88)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#90. To: groundresonance (#88)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#91. To: groundresonance (#86)
it's becoming obvious that you have no interest at all in doing your homework.
#92. To: RickyJ (#91)
FYI, Lurker thinks aliens ships are in very close orbit around the Sun. Some people are just plain nuts.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#93. To: RickyJ (#91)
Some people are just plain nuts.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#94. To: groundresonance, christine (#88)
die kill ~~ Me
#95. To: RickyJ (#91)
FYI, Lurker thinks aliens ships are in very close orbit around the Sun. Some people are just plain nuts.
die kill ~~ Me
#96. To: PSUSA (#94)
(Edited)
Do you think the earths rotation would have anything to do with these contrail patterns?
Moving objects on the surface of the Earth experience a Coriolis force, and appear to veer to the right in the northern hemisphere, and to the left in the southern. Exactly on the equator, motion east or west, remains (precariously) along the line of the equator.
#97. To: groundresonance (#96)
die kill ~~ Me
#98. To: PSUSA (#97)
(Edited)
The planes fly over the same ground, but not through the same atmosphere since the earth and the atmosphere are more or less independent.
#99. To: groundresonance, (#98)
the independence of the earth from its atmosphere is measured as wind velocity.
die kill ~~ Me
#100. To: PSUSA (#99)
It's an interesting science.
#101. To: groundresonance (#100)
die kill ~~ Me
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