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Title: CONTRAIL vs CHEMTRAIL 101
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Published: Apr 11, 2008
Author: truthseeker1922
Post Date: 2010-03-18 15:43:02 by wudidiz
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Views: 1512
Comments: 101
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 50.
#2. To: wudidiz (#0)
Here we go again. What was the relative humidity, temperature and pressure at the two different altitudes presented in this idiotic video?
It's obvious that the chemtrail is at a MUCH lower altitude than the contrail formed by the high altitude aircraft. I'd approximate the chemtrail to be between 7000 and 12,000 feet, whereas the aircraft leaving the contrail would be at around 35,000 feet. Being that there is no way in hell the temperature between 7000 to 12,000 feet would be anywhere close to the -35 C to -45 C temperature range, I'd say it'd be impossible for that chemtrail to actually be a contrail.
You're guessing. What some here are saying is that you cannot guess and hope to come to a correct conclusion. You have no way of knowing the altitude of anything, or of any conditions out there. We don't have to prove they don't exist. You have to prove that they do. Pics or vids without specific information are not proof.
Use a bit of logic. Compare the width of the contrail left by the high altitude aircraft (commercial aircraft cruise at ~ 35,000 feet) with that which is apparently a chemtrail. The contrail left by the high altitude jet is about a wingspan in width. If you look at the width of the larger chemtrail, it's about 5 times the width. So if it's 5 times the size, then it'd be 1/5 of the higher aircraft's altitude, which would be 35,000 feet / 5 = 7,000 feet in altitude. See, it's not rocket science PSUSA, and it does NOT involve simply taking a guess either.... PS: I estimated the altitude to be from 7000 to 12,000 feet, since the chemtrail may have expanded thus be wider than a normal contrail as left by the high altitude aircraft. I allowed for expansion to be up to about 1 3/4 the width.
All you are guessing is altitude. That is not even a factor in contrails.
All you are guessing is altitude. A) Do or do not commercial aircraft (airliners, cargo planes) cruise at approximately 35,000 feet? Even if the higher flying aircraft were at 40,000 feet, the lower altitude trail would be at 8,000 feet, still nowhere close to a valid altitude for contrails. That is not even a factor in contrails. So now you're trying to say that altitude is not a factor? Well let me fill you in on something. -35 C (-37 F) is a pretty normal temperature for 35,000 feet, but NOT for 7,000 to 12,000 feet. The temperature at that altitude is normally about 0 C (32 F), only about 70 degrees Fahrenheit too hot than the temperature necessary for MAYBE leaving a contrail...
So by the video you can tell it is at cruising alt? NOt climbing or descending? B) Do you think the larger trail is the same size (as seen visually in the sky) as the smaller one? I can't tell. So now you're trying to say that altitude is not a factor? Well let me fill you in on something. -35 C (-37 F) is a pretty normal temperature for 35,000 feet, but NOT for 7,000 to 12,000 feet. The temperature at that altitude is normally about 0 C (32 F), only about 70 degrees Fahrenheit too hot than the temperature necessary for MAYBE leaving a contrail... 35,000 feet is 6.6 miles. Go to your nearest airport, measure out 6.6 miles out from the airport, where you can still see the runway (LOL!) and try and see a plane at that distance with only your Mk1 eyeballs. Let me fill you in on something. Temp depends on where you are and the time of year. All you have is another silly video. You have no further info on what is shown. If you people want to believe in chemtrails, OK. But when you start trying to convince others, you will meet resistance.
So by the video you can tell it is at cruising alt? NOt climbing or descending? If it were any less than about 30,000 feet the temperature would be too warm for contrails to form. I was using a standard crusising altitude to take a conservative view, where it COULD have been lower than 35,000, but it would make it even MORE impossible for the larger trail to be a regular contrail if that were the case. In other words, if it were at 30,000 feet, then the lower chemtrail would be at 6,000 feet in altitude rather rather than 7000. It does NOT reach -35 C degrees at 6,000 OR 7,000 feet (a value given for 100% humidity BTW, the actual temperature would need to be more like at least -42 C). 35,000 feet is the standard cruising altitude, but if you take an airliner's MAXIMUM altitude to be about 40,000 feet, then the chemtrail would still only be 8,000 feet high. So it doesn't matter if it was climbing or descending, the minimum and maximum values STILL put the chemtrail far below possible contrail formation altitude. I can't tell. You can't tell that one trail is wider than the other? Perhaps that's your problem, you can't see. The higher trail is about 1/5 the width of the lower trail in terms of relative size in the sky, and that is quite obvious to anyone who looks at the image. Do you have problems judging relative sizes, such as the difference between a bowling ball and a golf ball side by side? Perhaps that's why this all seems perfectly normal to you, your perception is warped. 35,000 feet is 6.6 miles. Go to your nearest airport, measure out 6.6 miles out from the airport, where you can still see the runway (LOL!) and try and see a plane at that distance with only your Mk1 eyeballs. Are you trying to say that airliners are too high in the sky to see when they are at cruising altitude? Seems like you need to have your vision checked, since ANY plane leaving a contrail is at LEAST 30,000 feet in altitude, and I ALWAYS can see the plane leaving a contrail, however faint, in the sky. In fact I saw a squadron of fighter jets flying in formation between destinations leaving contrails once, so they were at least 30,000 feet high, and I could STILL make out the shape of the plane even though a fighter jet is MUCH smaller than an airliner. I think we're beginning to find out why you can't tell a contrail from a chemtrail, you're legally blind. Temp depends on where you are and the time of year. To a point. -42 C (-43.6 F) is NOT an air temperature that you'd find at altitudes less than 30,000 feet unless you were in the Artic or Antarctic regions. I don't think people seeing chemtrails in Texas, Arizona, or even New England states are experiencing Arctic conditions to be honest. All you have is another silly video. You have no further info on what is shown. All YOU have is lack of common sense, poor vision, and the inability to think through a problem. I have shown you that it is virtually impossible for the lower altitude trail to be a contrail. If you can't understand the reasoning, or refuse to, then that's your problem, not mine.
What kind of plane made the persistent contrail? You cannot even tell if it was a 1, 2, or 4 engine plane. It could easily be higher than you think. How about the one that you say is above? What can you tell me about that plane? He has both used zoom-in and increased the speed of the one aircraft visible. Why? Either that, or he got video of the Aurora and should expect a call from the NSA any time... Are you trying to say that airliners are too high in the sky to see when they are at cruising altitude? Seems like you need to have your vision checked, since ANY plane leaving a contrail is at LEAST 30,000 feet in altitude, and I ALWAYS can see the plane leaving a contrail, however faint, in the sky. How do you know it is at cruise alt.? It takes time to climb that high. "ANY plane leaving a contrail is at LEAST 30,000 feet in altitude" Really? You got that info where? That has the stench of BS to me... All you have is a video. You have no other info. None. All you are doing is you are trying to figure out the variables by watching this video that was manipulated by zooming in and out, and video speed, when you can't know what values to plug in. I have shown you that it is virtually impossible for the lower altitude trail to be a contrail. If you can't understand the reasoning, or refuse to, then that's your problem, not mine. You assign it a lower altitude. How low is it? How do you call that "reasoning"?
What kind of plane made the persistent contrail? You cannot even tell if it was a 1, 2, or 4 engine plane. It could easily be higher than you think. Would it matter? I was referring to contrail formation, not how many engines the plane had. However, if you REALLY want to know, only an idiot would think there's only one engine, since there are two streams of vapor. Regardless, the fact is contrails were formed, and the aircraft is above 30,000 feet, more than likely 35,000 feet or so. How do you know it is at cruise alt.? It takes time to climb that high. Because for one, the aircraft was leaving contrails, so it was over 30,000 feet. For two, it doesn't matter if it were climbing or descending, as long as it was over that altitude. For three, judging from it's horizontal velocity it was traveling level, since if it were descending or climbing it's horizontal velocity would be diminished. Really? You got that info where? That has the stench of BS to me... For one, the temperature is not cold enough at lower altitudes. Look it up genius, find me a chart of air temperatures at varying altitudes located over a temperate area where the air temperature is -42 C or less at an altitude less than 30,000 feet. All you are doing is you are trying to figure out the variables by watching this video that was manipulated by zooming in and out, and video speed, when you can't know what values to plug in. I was simply working from the posted main image of the video on this thread. It's apparent to any with a brain that the higher jet is higher than the lower chemtrail, and the contrail is about 1/5 the width of the lower chemtrail. You assign it a lower altitude. How low is it? How do you call that "reasoning"? Did you graduate elementary school? Objects of similar size will appear larger when they are closer. If you see two objects of equal size, and one is 5 times larger than the other, then that object is 5 times closer. Given a distance for the further object, X, the closer object would be 1/5 X in distance. If the smaller object is 40,000 feet away, then the closer object is 8,000 feet away. You're welcome for the math and science lesson.
I must really be getting under your skin here... You don't even know what time of year this vid was taken, or where it was taken. There is only a hint, when brush was shown. It still could have been winter, and who knows where. You are making the mistake of thinking the atmosphere is incapable of any variation in temps, and you are making the mistake of not knowing at what altitudes the planes are at. I was simply working from the posted main image of the video on this thread. It's apparent to any with a brain that the higher jet is higher than the lower chemtrail, and the contrail is about 1/5 the width of the lower chemtrail. Interesting, in that you didn't see the plane that laid down your "chemtrail". You have no idea how long it was there, and what wind forces were working to disburse it. Again, you are trying to get more info out of that video than what is shown. Science will not help you do that. In fact, if you send this entire thread to a scientist, he will tell you the same thing. Unless he is in a bad mood. Then he might not be so nice about it, if he bothers to answer at all.
Given that you are claiming the lower trail to be a contrail, it would thus have to have similar characteristics as a regular contrail. Even WITH expansion, say spreading out to twice it's original size, the end result given for even a 40,000 foot altitude for the higher altitude jet contrail would result in 2/5 * 40,000 = 16,000 feet high, STILL too low to form a contrail. A scientist would tell you how dumb you are for ignoring simple easily observable facts.
Perhaps. That doesn't mean that your math isn't BS. You are plugging in numbers that are your best guess, but you are still guessing. I'll see of I can find a meteorologist to answer these questions. Unless, that is, you think that THEY have gotten to all meteorologists...
How do you think physicists make observations and measurements, by guessing?? An observation is not a guess, and a relative comparison is not a guess. I guess that you able to understand the difference however.
Here is his response. We go through periods when a lot of people as us about these so-called "chemtrails". We don't believe that this are what are purported to be but rather is a natural phenomenon from jet aircraft. The exhaust from the aircraft is moisture laden and condenses in the atmosphere at the elevations where the jets fly. They are called "contrails" which is short for "condensation trail". I had a university professor who, in his early days of forecasting, was a weather forecaster during WWII and would let the Allied bomber pilots know at which elevation they would start to make contrails and thus be visible by enemy anti-aircraft batteries on the ground. Here are some of the points I try to make with people when they claim there is a conspiracy about “chem-trails” or because we don’t talk about it that I must be “in” on the conspiracy: Jet aircraft are crossing over the planet daily with hundreds of flights daily - are they all poisoning us? There have to be specific atmospheric conditions in order for contrails to form, for instance humidity, air pressure and temperature. If these are not met, no contrails are formed. It can be very cold on the ground but yet in the upper atmosphere it may not be cold enough to form contrails. So what about all the other days of the year when there are no contrail seen from the ground – are there also unseen chem-trails? If “people” are using commercial aircraft to poison the air or modify the weather, what happens with all the passengers on those planes? Wouldn’t you think that there would be some instances of illness? Think about the secrecy needed and the costs needed for the many days that people say that chem-trails are being sprayed in the air. Lastly, if certain people really wanted to poison us with gasses from commercial aircraft, why not fly and drop the chemicals on moon-less nights when it would not be visible by the general public? None of us here at the KSL weather department believe in “chem-trails” nor do we like to encourage those people who choose to believe in this non-conspiracy. Keith Merrill He knows they are crap. But perhaps you'd like a second opinion? And if that second opinion disagrees with you, you would then like a third opinion? Rinse and repeat? Sooner or later, someone might agree with you, if you ask enough people, and you aren't too picky about the people you ask.
Why are you asking a meteorologist, they're not clouds. Airplanes don't make clouds. Anyway, he's full of shit and so are you. He doesn't know what he's talking about or he's lying or he's just feeding you the same nonsense he was taught. Either way, he's wrong. Contrails don't make clouds. Ever.
Hmmm. OK. Who should I ask? Tell me who would be able to answer these questions if not a meteorologist?
Try NOAA...
OK, give me the name of a person there. Or better yet, why don't you write them yourself? I know why you won't. The insidious reach of the illuminati has reached into the very heart of NOAA, making sure that no mention is ever made of chemtrails... That is sarcasm, BTW. I know that there are those here that would say that in all seriousness. If you can say that about a meteorologist, you'll say it about the NOAA. After all, you said, and I quote, " Perhaps you could ask the FBI about the JFK assassination, and ask Homeland Security about the 9/11 attacks, I'm sure you'd get the real answers to your questions. " So, name someone we can ask.
Do you know how to use Google? How about reading the info at the link I posted for starters. In fact, if you really wanted to research this topic, you could contact their public affairs office and ask for info. Now, STFU till you grow a few brain cells and can do the most basic of research.
The reason I wont do it is that you will pull the same shit you did with the meteorologist. So you pick the person. Or you do it yourself. Or stfu.
I suggest you go back to hanging with your fellow chimps, you certainly don't know shit about science, and lack the ability to discuss a topic rationally.
You're not rational. The reason I wont do it is that you will pull the same shit you did with the meteorologist. So you pick the person. Or you do it yourself. Or stfu.
Hey bud, I gave you the science, I explained it all to you. If you're too fucking stupid to understand it, then don't waste my time. You're such an idiot, you think that by asking a Mr. Wizard type person on the Internet a question concerning chemtrails you're going to get a valid and thorough answer. Do you really think some shmuck answering questions about what the weather is going to be like tomorrow is going to be able to give you a valid answer? I gave you a link that does in fact indicate there are at least 47 ongoing weather modification projects, which includes activity such as what we call chemtrails. If you're too lazy or stupid to read it, then it's obvious you're just trolling here.
Your own words prove you are not rational. I am not "too fucking stupid to understand it". I am smart enough to recognize bullshit when I see it, and your posts are bullshit. At least when it comes to this topic. You did not give me science. You did not explain anything. You gave me guesses. YOu gave me faulty conclusions based on those guesses. I tried to give you science by someone that studies the atmosphere for a living and you chose to disregard it. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink. Now, about these "chemtrails". Who is a good neutral and honest source to ask about them? Surely there is someone out there... Let's keep this on topic. Who knows? Maybe you are right. But your attempts at proving it are not exactly awe inspiring. I can tell that I am getting further under your skin. That sometimes happens when a person dares question a fanatic. You need to relax and think before you post. That might help you some.
I think you belong on bozo. You repeat yourself like a broken record, ignore the facts, analysis, and calculations I gave, and make ludicrous and ridiculous claims. I tried to give you science by someone that studies the atmosphere for a living and you chose to disregard it. Bullshit, that character didn't state one scientific fact or offer any analysis, he simply regurgitated things any retard could tell you, such as "jet aircraft sometimes make contrails". It's apparent that you worship anyone who agrees with you, and close your ears, eyes, and mind to anything which proves you wrong. You apparently have ignored the link concerning the NOAA's weather modification projects. It's apparent you don't care about the topic, and are simply here to argue with people. All I can say is, adios Mr. Bozo.
One last thing PSUSA. It would not surprise me in the least if you are a government plant here on 4um. Besides taking the stance that chemtrails don't exist, and anyone who thinks they do is ignorant or worse, you seem to be an agent provocateur in terms of race baiting. Your posts typically are hate orientated and contain a generous sprinkling of the word "nigger", where you apparently think ALL black people are "niggers". Either you're some sort of extreme racist from the likes of StormFront, or you're here to make the forum look bad. Either way, I don't find it worth speaking with you any longer at this point.
Oh geez, here we go again with the Secret Agent bullshit. Chemtrails don't exist. Saying that does not make one a "agent", you silly fuck. But again, since I am on bozo, I present this for other readers that should take it for what they think it's worth. Your posts typically are hate orientated and contain a generous sprinkling of the word "nigger", where you apparently think ALL black people are "niggers". What's the matter? Are you a nigger? Interesting that you bring that up in a discussion on contrails. You will do anything to distract.
There are no replies to Comment # 50. End Trace Mode for Comment # 50.
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#4. To: PSUSA (#2)
#5. To: FormerLurker, all (#4)
#6. To: PSUSA (#5)
(Edited)
You're guessing. What some here are saying is that you cannot guess and hope to come to a correct conclusion. You have no way of knowing the altitude of anything, or of any conditions out there.
#8. To: FormerLurker (#6)
#9. To: PSUSA (#8)
(Edited)
B) Do you think the larger trail is the same size (as seen visually in the sky) as the smaller one?
C) Since it's obvious to all but the most brain dead that the larger one IS larger than the smaller one, is not the larger one approximately 5 times the width of the smaller one?
D) If it is 5 times the width, would it not be a valid assumption that it would be approximately 1/5 the altitude of the smaller contrail?
#17. To: FormerLurker (#9)
A) Do or do not commercial aircraft (airliners, cargo planes) cruise at approximately 35,000 feet?
#18. To: PSUSA (#17)
#19. To: FormerLurker (#18)
You can't tell that one trail is wider than the other? Perhaps that's your problem, you can't see. The higher trail is about 1/5 the width of the lower trail in terms of relative size in the sky, and that is quite obvious to anyone who looks at the image.
#20. To: PSUSA (#19)
(Edited)
#21. To: FormerLurker (#20)
For one, the temperature is not cold enough at lower altitudes. Look it up genius, find me a chart of air temperatures at varying altitudes located over a temperate area where the air temperature is -42 C or less at an altitude less than 30,000 feet.
#23. To: PSUSA (#21)
Again, you are trying to get more info out of that video than what is shown. Science will not help you do that. In fact, if you send this entire thread to a scientist, he will tell you the same thing. Unless he is in a bad mood. Then he might not be so nice about it, if he bothers to answer at all.
#24. To: FormerLurker (#23)
A scientist would tell you how dumb you are for ignoring simple easily observable facts.
#25. To: PSUSA (#24)
That doesn't mean that your math isn't BS. You are plugging in numbers that are your best guess, but you are still guessing.
#27. To: FormerLurker (#25)
#28. To: PSUSA, FormerLurker (#27)
#29. To: wudidiz (#28)
#35. To: PSUSA (#29)
Hmmm. OK. Who should I ask? Tell me who would be able to answer these questions if not a meteorologist?
#36. To: FormerLurker (#35)
Try NOAA...
#37. To: PSUSA (#36)
OK, give me the name of a person there. Or better yet, why don't you write them yourself?
#38. To: FormerLurker (#37)
#39. To: PSUSA (#38)
CHIMPOUT!
#40. To: FormerLurker (#39)
#43. To: PSUSA (#40)
You're not rational.
#44. To: FormerLurker (#43)
(Edited)
Hey bud, I gave you the science, I explained it all to you. If you're too fucking stupid to understand it, then don't waste my time.
#45. To: PSUSA (#44)
#46. To: PSUSA, All (#45)
#50. To: FormerLurker (#46)
(Edited)
One last thing PSUSA. It would not surprise me in the least if you are a government plant here on 4um. Besides taking the stance that chemtrails don't exist, and anyone who thinks they do is ignorant or worse, you seem to be an agent provocateur in terms of race baiting.
Replies to Comment # 50.