See other Immigration Articles
Title: Arizona immigration law could drive (Illegal Alien) Latinos out of state
Source:
The Arizona Republic
URL Source: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep ... -migrants-leaving-arizona.html
Published: Apr 28, 2010
Author: Daniel González
Post Date: 2010-04-28 04:28:01 by hondo68
Keywords: Illegal, Alien, Invader, Criminals
Views: 4041
Comments: 295
Adriana Miranda leaned against the door frame and started to sob. Her husband hasn't found steady work in a year. Then, on Friday, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed the tough anti-illegal-immigration law that will allow police to arrest illegal immigrants like her. It was the last straw. After seven years in Arizona, the family was moving. "Yesterday, we sold our trailer," Miranda, 38, said between sobs. "We don't know exactly where. Another state." Miranda is not alone. More than 100,000 undocumented immigrants have left Arizona in the past two years because of the bad economy and earlier enforcement crackdowns. Now, a new wave of Latinos is preparing to leave. And it isn't just illegal immigrants: Legal residents and U.S. citizens also say they will leave Arizona because they view the state as unfriendly to Hispanics. Arizona's new immigration law is not so much about using local police to round up and deport as many of the estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants in the state as possible, said state Rep. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, it's about creating so much fear they will leave on their own. The strategy is known as "attrition through enforcement," and it is a factor behind every one of the anti-illegal-immigration laws passed so far, said Kavanagh, a main supporter of the bill and a criminal-justice professor at Scottsdale Community College. "That means that rather than conducting large-scale active roundups of illegal immigrants, our intention is to make Arizona a very uncomfortable place for them to be so they leave or never come here in the first place," he said. "So, rather than massive deportations, we are basically going to encourage them to leave on their own." When that happens, he said, crime and taxes will go down. But Kavanagh said he is worried about legal immigrants and U.S. citizens also leaving. "I'm concerned about legal residents who are unnecessarily leaving the state because they have bought into a lot of the misinformation about this bill," Kavanagh said. Phoenix resident Javier Collazo, 18, a U.S. citizen who was born in California, said he is worried police may question him about his immigration status because of his appearance. He is also worried that he could be arrested under a provision of the law that makes it a crime to transport undocumented immigrants. His in-laws are undocumented, and so are several of his friends. Kavanagh said legal residents and U.S. citizens have nothing to worry about. The law strictly prohibits racial profiling. And the transporting provision is aimed at human smugglers and other criminals, not people giving rides to undocumented relatives, he said. "They should know that it prohibits racial profiling," Kavanagh said. "They should know that if they are transporting someone, even if they know the person is illegal, as long as they are not doing a separate illegal act, they are not going to get into trouble. They also should know that once by attrition or by enforcement we significantly reduce the number of illegals in this state, taxes are going to go down and crime is going to go down. So, it will be a better place to live for everybody." How many Latinos may leave Arizona is unknown. But the state's economy, which has hit Latinos disproportionately hard, combined with the new law, has made living in Arizona intolerable, many Hispanics said this week. The new law makes it a state crime to be in the country without legal papers and lets police question people about their immigration status if officers have reasonable suspicion they are in the country illegally. An anti-smuggling provision makes it a crime to knowingly transport illegal immigrants. Some immigrants said they are waiting to see if the law survives legal challenges before making a final decision. Others, like Miranda, are already packing their bags. Many said they will move to another state. Few said they will return to Mexico. Not just illegal immigrants are leaving, and the sudden loss of large numbers of people could hurt the state's already dismal economy. José Mendez, an economics professor at the W.P. Carey School of Business at Arizona State University, said the state's economic recovery could be hampered by the large-scale loss of workers. While wages may rise, the price of services "will definitely be higher," he said. Businesses, especially small ones that rely on those workers, will have a hard time expanding, Mendez added. There may also be a loss of sales-tax revenue and even property-tax revenue, he said. "They pay taxes every time they buy food at the 7-Eleven or when they buy gasoline," he said. Mendez also said that, in the short term, undocumented immigrants tend to be a drain on public services because they have low-paying jobs and therefore pay little income taxes. But, in the long run, their U.S.-born children tend to offset those costs through higher-paying jobs and higher taxes. "So on net, when you take those two, empirical studies have shown, they pay more in taxes than the value of services they receive," Mendez said. State Sen. Richard Miranda, D-Tolleson, said the large-scale loss of people could hurt already fragile communities. "It could destabilize neighborhoods," he said. Miranda said he spent 2 1/2 hours Saturday walking through largely Latino neighborhoods in Maryvale and west Phoenix. He said he met Latinos, Sikhs, Hindus, Filipinos and other people of color, the majority of them U.S. citizens. "They are all really concerned about the new law," he said. "The stress and intimidation makes people fearful." Phoenix resident Adamaris, a 22-year-old undocumented immigrant from Mexico, said she thinks many illegal immigrants will leave Arizona. "The economy is already bad here, and now with this new law ...," she said. "No, we don't want to stay here." Adamaris, who asked that her last name not be used because she is afraid of being deported, said she plans to wait two months to see if the law survives legal challenges before deciding whether to leave. Glendale resident John Zavala, 32, was born in Mexico City but has lived in the United States most of his life. He is a legal resident of the United States and moved from Chicago to Phoenix in 2003 because he liked the weather. But Zavala said he thinks the political climate in the state has turned inhospitable toward Latinos. If the hostility continues, Zavala said, he will leave Arizona. "I always carry my green card," said Zavala, a computer-network analyst. "Until this point, I've never had to use it. But from now on, I guess I will."
Adriana Miranda, an undocumented immigrant, tearfully says she's leaving Arizona.
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#162. To: Ferret (#157)
I am worried for you, Mike. I think while you played with trees and cavorted with all kinds of folks you missed a professional career. And, in the process you think illegals have as much a right to be in the US as we are. I have heard illegal immigrants are the first in line receiving government benefits .... have you observed that?
"Sarah "Kiss my Torah" Palin" -- Jethro Tull, circa 2010-04-14
lol......that's too funny Buck. Thanks for the laughs. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I see people that need to shut up, take a dose of their own medicine and to try to learn from the experience. If you truly were a student of karma, then you would understand and accept that precisely what you deem wrong with other people is what is wrong with you. That's a basic in karma--your attention is given to what you must correct and restore in your own karmic reckoning.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Do all of these burned out druggie friends of yours have something to do with illegal aliens? They employ guest workers in their "green" meth labs, or as crank salesmen, or what?
Then every illegal that STEALS the identity of a close matching profile is a BIGOT and a criminal too boot. Why don't you apply your logic in racial profiling to victims of identity theft Mike? Most illegals acquire the social standing that you sepeak of by STEALING the identity of an American citizen......bigots, eh?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I think they are used to harvest the green weed grown in the back hills.
"Sarah "Kiss my Torah" Palin" -- Jethro Tull, circa 2010-04-14
Someone using another person's SS # is an opportunist. They would likely use a Latino/Latina's number who is a citizen as much as one belonging to anyine else. You knew that of course, unless you are really mud dumb. Saying that to bait is just generic dumb, which would cover you nicely.
I was addressing them to Buck in response to him sharing stuff from here he looked up, Amiga.
Why great balls of fire Buck; I am a branch manager. It doesn't get much better then that.
I served in the U.S. Army for nine years; and your DD form 214 says you served how long?
I was a reforestation worker for 12 years, and was displaced from that position by Mexican immigrants. In the years leading up to me losing my job, my wage dropped drastically because of them. Been there, done that. Sure I have been angry at them over that; but I am smart enough to see that it was others who used them to make a buck by enticing them to come in and win contracts as the lowest bidder because they knew they would work for piss por wages. Those same opportunists want people to scarp with illegal immigrants to distract attention from them and their greed. Myself, I stay focused on being angry at them.
What? Using? Why not STEALING, Mike? That is what they are doing--STEALING identities so that they can work without hassle. So, it's okay to racially profile for a good mark to STEAL an identity? That's okay with you, eh? What you are saying is that racial profiling is OKAY FOR ILLEGALS while they are STEALING identities, but WAY WRONG for anybody else. So you don't like what I have to say and you think it is okay to call me "mud dumb" for disagreeing with your lack of logic. Good karma, Mike. lol Just because you know that you have no LOGIC or REASON to offer in a discussion, doesn't give you the right to insult and belittle in lieu of intelligent discourse. In fact, I often hear you whining something to that effect to other posters when they call you names. Oh, but it's okay for YOU, just like it's okay for ILLEGALS TO STEAL and conduct RACIAL PROFILING.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
And I said they were not wrong in what they were doing by what? Because I didn't use your favorite word for it? Poor baby, my heart bleeds for you. I don't go on the defensive because favorite words are not used to express myself. I already mentioned I am the victim of identity theft and served time in jail over it before it was cleared up. So if you think i like any ID theft, up yours'.
Read it again, hero; I said genetic dumb; gave you the benefit of doubt that you might not be mud dumb. But if you can't comprehend and got it wrong, what can I say; you MUST be mud dumb. There, that better? You know me, always willing to please.
All society boils down to is the question of who has more right to each of our property. I keep saying We Do but always get drowned out, then I come here.
“we were respected as the most disinterested and charitable nation in the world.” - Robert A. Taft
I do know that the Social Security Administration has increased security and when you get a job they check it now. This is a good thing. No one should use someone's number to get hired. That is fraud.
Going for that great karma.........lol. Nice dodge on the STEALING of identities too. Diversion by insult--how original. It's okay for illegals to steal because it's good karma. Oh, and racial profiling for a good match to STEAL is good karma too. Yes, you sure are an astute student of karma. Why, you really should be a karma instructor with your emmense knowledge on the subject. /sarc
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
"Sarah "Kiss my Torah" Palin" -- Jethro Tull, circa 2010-04-14
Where's the substance? Oh, we are all supposed to cry--sniff, sniff--because Mike has been the "victim" of so many crimes. Yes, and you went to jail. But, it's okay for illegals because they are just "using" another person's identity. Maybe your identity wasn't stolen at all, maybe it was just "used" by somebody else. An asute student of karma would say that you are getting EXACTLY what you have given, no more no less, but, of course, one would have to actually have an iota of knowledge about the concept of karma to grasp that epiphany.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Are you talking to yourself, or babbling at me? Sometimes with you, it's immensely hard to determine this.
Thank Odin TSA is on the ball, eh? You familiar with the purple Montego of Eugene?
“we were respected as the most disinterested and charitable nation in the world.” - Robert A. Taft
Was that insult supposed to leave a mark.........you missed. lol Try again. Try IMMENSELY hard. Might I suggest that you launder your karma, rather than creating more dirty deeds that will continue the cycle of "victimhood" and jail time, not to mention the incessant whining over all of your "bad luck" that just happens to, for NO REASON at all, befall on such an astute student of karma.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
It was used by someone else, and this use was fraud. And your point is...? I also would say I am lucky in that I don't ever use credit cards and I don't consider myself victimized by a whole lot of crime. That is your spin. I did foolishly leave my wallet on the counter at the bank, so I'm sure that there is a lesson in karma there somewhere. And I'm sure that you will entertain me further with exactly how this is so. ;-D
What a double-butt-ugly loser and I'm sure that's his best pic If you put a hat on a Baboon's butt, he could cash weasel's welfare checks ROTFLMAO at the butt-faced weasel
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
Mike, your post is right here on this thread detailing all your episodes as a "victim" of crimes. yawn. And it's not the first time we have all heard the endless episode repeating ad nauseum here at 4um. It's a regular re-run. It's not my spin at all........victimhood is your gig, not mine. You see, I believe in karma, which negates ANY notion of victim. That's your basic Karma 101. Of course, illegals and Mike are not, in any way, responsible for any ill treatment that comes their way. And, the illegals and the person who "stole" your identity were just "using" an identity, not stealing or creating any bad karma whatsoever, according to your logic.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
What is fraud, Mike? You said the illeglas were just "using" the identity of a person, who fits a close racial profile to their own, to work. Somehow this is not racial profiling, according to your logic, which again makes no sense. But, wait, did you say that the person who "stole" your identity is in a different catagory than an illegal "using" an identity? If it happens to YOU it is theft, but if it happens to somebody else it is just "using" an identiy? You have an obvious error in logic on your part, Mike. You are very selective in what is "stealing" and what is "using" when it comes to identity theft.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I don't try to insult with every post. If I am supposed to, that is new to me. The ID theft occurred when I left my wallet on the counter of a Bank in 1980. I had to clear up traffic tickets and went to jail locally as alias me in 1985, and jail again in 1988 in Washington, because I had not checked for outstanding warrants in neighboring states. This happened a long while ago, and the burn out Dale Allan Beatty is in prison, and has been in and out of prison all his life. In fact, the Beatty clan of Cottage Grove, OR is a family that is noted for theft of all kinds, child endangerment, felons in possession of firearms, furnishing drugs to a minor, and many other things. Once old Dale was drunk and fired at a man's feet to make him dance. He is a wonderful guy, and his nephew told me once his uncle laughed his ass off at the misery he caused me. I don't particularly hate the idiot; why should I? He's obviously his own worst enemy, and not worth wasting the anger on.
Words are symbols used to convey meaning. You use your words, and I'll use mine. I see us as saying the same thing, and you have no difficulty understanding what I am saying.
Selective response there, Mike. I've heard your identity theft story MULTIPLE times. I know you LOVE to repeat it, but it really isn't relevant other than the following question that you continue to ignore: What I would like to know is why is it THEFT when it happens to YOU, but simply USING another person's identity if an illegal STEALS an identity from another person? That's the substance of the discussion, not your personal story again.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
NEWSFLASH: USE and STEAL are two completely DIFFERENT verbs with COMPLETELY different MEANINGS. They do not change simply because the people who take the action of the verbs change. Do you know the difference or not? The terms are not SELECTIVELY applied as you see fit. I seem to understand the difference between the two verbs, while you find that they are SELECTIVELY interchangeable at your whim. I don't see us saying the same thing because USE is not STEAL and STEAL is not USE depending on the person who is partaking in the action of the verb.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
And am trying to understand what you are splitting hairs over. I see no point to what you are saying, as I have not used one word in place of another to try to convey that using my ID is any worse then using someone that of someone else. I see no point to your comment, because I sure the heck am not making a value judgment on what incident of misuse of ID is worse then another one.
4. Why do you ask? Is it important that your 9 years counts more than my 4? That's of course not counting the 2 years I worked for our government. The difference between you and I, is that I am consistent where my patriotism, ad loyalty are. In my mind, you hide behind your previous life, to excuse the life you lead right now. Which is okay. Everyone has to rationalize their behavior in some way right? Oh wait... I'm talking to the lorax. You speak for the trees.
It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.
Above is precisely YOUR value judgment that I responded to initially. Illegals use racial profiling to STEAL identities all the time, yet you don't call them bigots. You also made a value judgement on that same post by stating that it's "okay" if illegals are "using" a social security number to work. All along my point is that YOU can't have it both ways in YOUR value judgments. It can't be theft when it happens to you and "using" when it happens to somebody else. The same illegals you argue for are STEALING identities and racial profiling, which you claim to doth protest so much........but you give them a free pass for what you claim to despise.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I made no value judgment on one incident over another. You can try all you want to read tea leaves in my word choice, but in the end you are dealing with your opinion and subjective judgment. I really don't care what one post looks like to you over another. To me, all incidents of misappropriation of ID is bad. I like the Democratic proposal just made that includes a proposal for a Social Security card containing a biometric chip that all workers, including American citizens, would have to present to an employer when being hired. In this proposal, employers would be responsible for monitoring the immigration status of potential hires much more closely than they do now. Every employer would be required to use a new verification system, including a scanner at every business to confirm the validity of the Social Security cards of job applicants. I support stronger ID controls to end this problem. And I don't care how you want to try to interpret my words; all misuse of ID is bad. And as am no better then anyone else, it is not worse a thing to happen if it happens to me or someone else.
speaking of funny stuff---
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. What a great idea. The only problem I see is that some people might lose their card. How about we just implant the chip then we wont have to worry about it. /sarcasm off
I use illegal immigrant instead of illegal alien too. We could do several round of posts on this one much as we have done now, That word choice is a result of my capricious obstinacy over an equally dumb argument much like this one years ago at liberty Post. I don't mind if you want to do this again on that word choice. I am always patient and accommodating when entertained like this.
Hi Mike The sweat lodge is open here. The best blankets in the world are on sale here, Navajo. Got some sweet cedar wood lit. Apaches are friendly, Navajos are trading blankets, Tewas pottery onsale. I can get you top dollar for a Gatteling Gun with plenty of ammo. Tom
"Satan / Cheney in "08" An excellent post.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Heh, I do not support putting chips in anybody. But biometrics are a digital quantification of a picture allowing computers to recognize people. (And if I am wrong in my definition of this, I bet know who is out there who will immediately let me know I fudged my karma.) ;-D I am not against either a picture of a biometric measurement on the SS card.
You support police state legislation. It is a violation of the constitution too. 4th amendment. 10th and probably more.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestWhy post these to ya? Well, it gives you an accurate taste of what kind of subset of the greater Eugene, Oregon community am proud to belong to. ARGH!
#163. To: buckeroo (#92)
#164. To: Ferret (#148)
I am a devout student of karma.
#165. To: Ferret (#156)
My joy over McCain's defeat, is offset by my disappointment over hObama's victory.
#166. To: Ferret (#133)
If you use race or ethnic background to steal the social standing and well being of an individual or group of people, you are being a bigot.
#167. To: hondo68 (#165)
#168. To: abraxas (#166)
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#169. To: hondo68 (#165)
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#170. To: buckeroo (#162)
"I am worried for you, Mike. I think while you played with trees and cavorted with all kinds of folks you missed a professional career. And, in the process you think illegals have as much a right to be in the US as we are."
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#171. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#160)
"It's unfortunate that you can't see your own treason."
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#172. To: randge (#159)
"You can if you will, Mike, try to make amends by offering YOUR job to a willing Mexican job seeker, but don't ask an American who's looking for entry-level work or a labor job to do the same. It just isn't right, and an overwhelming number of Americans know that it is not."
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#173. To: Ferret (#168)
Someone using another person's SS # is an opportunist.
#174. To: abraxas (#173)
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#175. To: abraxas (#173)
"So you don't like what I have to say and you think it is okay to call me "mud dumb" for disagreeing with your lack of logic."
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#176. To: abraxas, Ferret Mike (#173)
So, it's okay to racially profile for a good mark to STEAL an identity? That's okay with you, eh?
#177. To: Dakmar (#176)
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#178. To: Ferret (#175)
#179. To: Ferret (#170)
Why great balls of fire Buck; I am a branch manager. It doesn't get much better then that.
#180. To: Ferret (#174)
#181. To: abraxas (#178)
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#182. To: Ferret (#177)
I do know that the Social Security Administration has increased security and when you get a job they check it now. This is a good thing. No one should use someone's number to get hired. That is fraud.
#183. To: Ferret (#181)
#184. To: abraxas (#180)
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#185. To: buckeroo, Mikey, the Butt-Faced weasel (#179)
(Edited)
#186. To: Ferret (#184)
I also would say I am lucky in that I don't ever use credit cards and I don't consider myself victimized by a whole lot of crime. That is your spin.
#187. To: Ferret (#184)
(Edited)
It was used by someone else, and this use was fraud.
#188. To: abraxas (#183)
(Edited)
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#189. To: abraxas (#187)
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#190. To: Ferret (#188)
#191. To: Ferret (#189)
You use your words, and I'll use mine.
#192. To: abraxas (#190)
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#193. To: Ferret (#171)
#194. To: Ferret (#192)
(Edited)
Someone using another person's SS # is an opportunist. (MIKE VALUE JUDGMENT)
If you use race or ethnic background to steal the social standing and well being of an individual or group of people, you are being a bigot.
#195. To: abraxas (#194)
(Edited)
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#196. To: abraxas (#163)
Lord Acton
#197. To: Ferret (#195)
I like the Democratic proposal just made that includes a proposal for a Social Security card containing a biometric chip that all workers, including American citizens, would have to present to an employer when being hired.
#198. To: abraxas (#194)
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#199. To: Ferret (#195)
#200. To: SonOfLiberty (#153)
Granted, there are some pretty sad elements on 4um who are racists. That said, that doesn't make your arguments valid. The time of PC intimidation is past. It was the pushing of PC intimidation for the last 20 years that has caused the threat you see now in front of you, that seems to be monolithic and impervious to your arguments. Without the value of PC intimidation for you, you're faced with not only principled opponents of illegal immigration, you're also faced with the spectre of some of the uglier aspects of humanity staring you in the eye and not backing down. You overplayed the PC intimidation card, and now hell is about to be paid. Welcome to the world that people like you helped create.
Lord Acton
#201. To: A K A Stone (#197)
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#202. To: Ferret (#201)
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