See other Immigration Articles
Title: Arizona immigration law could drive (Illegal Alien) Latinos out of state
Source:
The Arizona Republic
URL Source: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarep ... -migrants-leaving-arizona.html
Published: Apr 28, 2010
Author: Daniel González
Post Date: 2010-04-28 04:28:01 by hondo68
Keywords: Illegal, Alien, Invader, Criminals
Views: 3705
Comments: 295
Adriana Miranda leaned against the door frame and started to sob. Her husband hasn't found steady work in a year. Then, on Friday, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed the tough anti-illegal-immigration law that will allow police to arrest illegal immigrants like her. It was the last straw. After seven years in Arizona, the family was moving. "Yesterday, we sold our trailer," Miranda, 38, said between sobs. "We don't know exactly where. Another state." Miranda is not alone. More than 100,000 undocumented immigrants have left Arizona in the past two years because of the bad economy and earlier enforcement crackdowns. Now, a new wave of Latinos is preparing to leave. And it isn't just illegal immigrants: Legal residents and U.S. citizens also say they will leave Arizona because they view the state as unfriendly to Hispanics. Arizona's new immigration law is not so much about using local police to round up and deport as many of the estimated 460,000 illegal immigrants in the state as possible, said state Rep. John Kavanagh, R-Fountain Hills, it's about creating so much fear they will leave on their own. The strategy is known as "attrition through enforcement," and it is a factor behind every one of the anti-illegal-immigration laws passed so far, said Kavanagh, a main supporter of the bill and a criminal-justice professor at Scottsdale Community College. "That means that rather than conducting large-scale active roundups of illegal immigrants, our intention is to make Arizona a very uncomfortable place for them to be so they leave or never come here in the first place," he said. "So, rather than massive deportations, we are basically going to encourage them to leave on their own." When that happens, he said, crime and taxes will go down. But Kavanagh said he is worried about legal immigrants and U.S. citizens also leaving. "I'm concerned about legal residents who are unnecessarily leaving the state because they have bought into a lot of the misinformation about this bill," Kavanagh said. Phoenix resident Javier Collazo, 18, a U.S. citizen who was born in California, said he is worried police may question him about his immigration status because of his appearance. He is also worried that he could be arrested under a provision of the law that makes it a crime to transport undocumented immigrants. His in-laws are undocumented, and so are several of his friends. Kavanagh said legal residents and U.S. citizens have nothing to worry about. The law strictly prohibits racial profiling. And the transporting provision is aimed at human smugglers and other criminals, not people giving rides to undocumented relatives, he said. "They should know that it prohibits racial profiling," Kavanagh said. "They should know that if they are transporting someone, even if they know the person is illegal, as long as they are not doing a separate illegal act, they are not going to get into trouble. They also should know that once by attrition or by enforcement we significantly reduce the number of illegals in this state, taxes are going to go down and crime is going to go down. So, it will be a better place to live for everybody." How many Latinos may leave Arizona is unknown. But the state's economy, which has hit Latinos disproportionately hard, combined with the new law, has made living in Arizona intolerable, many Hispanics said this week. The new law makes it a state crime to be in the country without legal papers and lets police question people about their immigration status if officers have reasonable suspicion they are in the country illegally. An anti-smuggling provision makes it a crime to knowingly transport illegal immigrants. Some immigrants said they are waiting to see if the law survives legal challenges before making a final decision. Others, like Miranda, are already packing their bags. Many said they will move to another state. Few said they will return to Mexico. Not just illegal immigrants are leaving, and the sudden loss of large numbers of people could hurt the state's already dismal economy. José Mendez, an economics professor at the W.P. Carey School of Business at Arizona State University, said the state's economic recovery could be hampered by the large-scale loss of workers. While wages may rise, the price of services "will definitely be higher," he said. Businesses, especially small ones that rely on those workers, will have a hard time expanding, Mendez added. There may also be a loss of sales-tax revenue and even property-tax revenue, he said. "They pay taxes every time they buy food at the 7-Eleven or when they buy gasoline," he said. Mendez also said that, in the short term, undocumented immigrants tend to be a drain on public services because they have low-paying jobs and therefore pay little income taxes. But, in the long run, their U.S.-born children tend to offset those costs through higher-paying jobs and higher taxes. "So on net, when you take those two, empirical studies have shown, they pay more in taxes than the value of services they receive," Mendez said. State Sen. Richard Miranda, D-Tolleson, said the large-scale loss of people could hurt already fragile communities. "It could destabilize neighborhoods," he said. Miranda said he spent 2 1/2 hours Saturday walking through largely Latino neighborhoods in Maryvale and west Phoenix. He said he met Latinos, Sikhs, Hindus, Filipinos and other people of color, the majority of them U.S. citizens. "They are all really concerned about the new law," he said. "The stress and intimidation makes people fearful." Phoenix resident Adamaris, a 22-year-old undocumented immigrant from Mexico, said she thinks many illegal immigrants will leave Arizona. "The economy is already bad here, and now with this new law ...," she said. "No, we don't want to stay here." Adamaris, who asked that her last name not be used because she is afraid of being deported, said she plans to wait two months to see if the law survives legal challenges before deciding whether to leave. Glendale resident John Zavala, 32, was born in Mexico City but has lived in the United States most of his life. He is a legal resident of the United States and moved from Chicago to Phoenix in 2003 because he liked the weather. But Zavala said he thinks the political climate in the state has turned inhospitable toward Latinos. If the hostility continues, Zavala said, he will leave Arizona. "I always carry my green card," said Zavala, a computer-network analyst. "Until this point, I've never had to use it. But from now on, I guess I will."
Adriana Miranda, an undocumented immigrant, tearfully says she's leaving Arizona.
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#123. To: buckeroo (#122)
Exactly how does your mind work to tell me that I am a traitor from what I said.
i love that punchline.
You must be a traitor. At least according to bucky
I said upwards of 2 million. I am sure it is probably more by now but the last figures I saw were approaching 2 million. Obama’s Eligibility: Here’s Your Sign! Categories: Columns by Tim Baldwin In a recent article written by JB Williams entitled, “DC Knows that Obama is Ineligible for Office,”[1] Williams highlights some facts signaling that the federal government, the main-stream media and those closely related to both know that Barak Obama is ineligible to be the President of the United States of America under the U.S. Constitution. Williams cites these facts in support of his assertion: -Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic Party did not certify that Obama qualified to run as a candidate for President of the U.S., but only that Obama was the Democratic Party candidate; -the news media previously and numerously referred to Obama as “Kenya-born” before he ran for President. Afterwards, “Kenya-born” was dropped; -Obama has spent over 2 million dollars in hiding what they say exists (his birth certificate) and supposedly have in hand; -the Justice Department is doing everything they possibly can to keep Americans from pursing Obama’s eligibility in court; -federal judges have dismissed over 400 hundred court cases on Obama’s eligibility, ruling that these citizens do not have standing to know who is acting as President of the U.S.; -Michelle Obama has described Barak’s home as being the country of Kenya; Williams is not alone, of course, in the conclusion that Obama is an illegitimate President and that his illegitimacy is being covered up by Congress, the federal courts, those in the Republican and Democratic national parties and others. Ever since Obama campaigned for U.S. President, millions in America have raised his eligibility as a fundamental concern for the integrity of the U.S. Constitution and rule of law, all to no avail. It is not only “average Joe” who believes Obama is illegitimate, but state governments are expressing the same notion. The state of Arizona has recently passed a law, expected to be signed by the governor, which declares that Barak Obama must prove his U.S. citizenship before being permitted to be on the ballot in 2012.[2] Many states are expected to follow Arizona’s lead of resistance to unlawful federal actions, just as so many states are doing lately on many different fronts (thankfully!). Given these serious insinuations believed by many millions of Americans concerning Obama’s illegitimacy and concerning its cover up, that more serious deductions and conclusions are not being raised–at least publicly–surprises me. Consider what is really implied about Obama’s ineligibility and the cover up by those in the federal government, the main-stream media and the two major political parties. The cut-to-the-chase conclusion underlying this whole ordeal is that the United States government is completely and utterly illegitimate and reeks of bad faith and intent. Any other conclusion is very difficult to believe, using logic and reason. How can the people have any confidence, trust or loyalty whatsoever to a federal system of government that is covering up and perpetuating one of the most audacious and bold lies concerning one of the most simple and clear of constitutional matters? How can the people put any hope in restoring freedom by voting for any person associated with the two major parties that are intrinsically linked to the cover up of Obama’s eligibility? How can the people believe one word coming from any main-stream news source, which are in bed with both political parties? How can the states submit to any federal laws coming from such a government? How can the states remain in such a union under such a regime? Do not be deceived: if Obama is an illegitimate President because he was born in Kenya or some other foreign country, it is not his dirty little secret alone. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of people who know and are in positions of the so-called highest power. Insultingly so, this matter does not involve some complex legal issue for some “supreme” tribunal of life-term judges to decide. This is simply a matter of, SHOW ME YOUR CITIZENSHIP! This is simply a matter of providing what you say already exists. Any idiot is capable of doing this. In fact, most states now require that you provide proof of your birth certificate to be able to obtain a drivers license. Yet somehow the President of the United States is exempt from providing America (those who “license” any person to hold office) the same proof when the importance of Obama’s proving the same is of much higher and greater importance that it is literally comparing a pebble to the Rocky Mountains. That a person would spend millions of dollars to conceal a document allegedly in hand and in existence reeks of dishonesty, corruption and conspiracy. That the Justice Department would spend thousands of man-hours and millions of tax-dollars to prevent a court from ordering Obama to provide this proof is the epitome of suspicion and presumptive proof of illegitimacy. I dare ask the question: who in their right mind would desire to reconcile with a federal government of that sort, especially given the track record of the federal government since 1865? (No, this is not about the Democratic Party: it is about the federal system.) What person who desires a free government and society would hold the belief that such a government is worthy of anything other than your separation from it? This matter goes to the very heart of consent-of-the-governed and a free state and people. Assume that Obama shows America his birth certificate, and come to find out, his birth certificate proves he is a natural born U.S. citizen. What is to be said of the hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars that were spent to keep America from seeing what they are entitled to see? What is to be said of the federal system that hid the proof from America for so long? What is to be said of the news media who mocked all of you “crazy ‘birthers’” as conspiratorial nut-jobs for making such an issue of Obama’s citizenship? What is to be said of the two major political parties (on the national level) that only perpetuated the mystery and contributed to the shamefulness of the cover up? However, that Obama is legitimate is not the assumption at this point. The assumption held by literally millions of Americans–and now, state governments–is that the person sitting as President of the United States of America is illegitimate–and consequently, implying the corruption, degradation and tyranny of the federal regime. This assumption necessarily carries with it the presumption that the entire federal government is complicit in Obama’s unlawful command of the executive branch. We know that Congressman Bill Posey (FL – R) introduced a bill[3] (along with eleven co-sponsors) that would require any future candidate for President to prove his eligibility under HR 1503, which states: “in the case of a principal campaign committee of a candidate for election to the office of President, a copy of the candidate’s birth certificate, together with such other documentation as may be necessary to establish that the candidate meets the qualifications for eligibility to the Office of President under section 5 of article II of the Constitution.’” But, we have yet to see what shall come of that bill. Meanwhile, Obama still acts as President. Troops continue to be deployed. Wars fought. Lives lost. Taxes spent. Laws passed and signed. Freedom lost. All the while, the States are, through their independent state sovereignty actions, having to spend billions of dollars in justifiably resisting the horrific demonstrations of federal tyranny, as if the people of the states are not suffering economically enough as it is. Moreover, this matter of Obama’s eligibility reaches deeper than even the conspiracy of cover up by the federal government and others: it reaches to the roots of society itself. Consider that some 64 million people voted for a man who presumably does not even qualify to be President. Yet, they do not even care. They celebrated in November 2008 as the man they voted for promised America a transparent federal government. There was now going to be “change we can believe in!” Yet, when asked to produce proof that Obama is eligible to be President, 64 million people come to his defense, including those in the federal government and main-stream media, calling anyone who would dare broach the subject as a right-wing conspirator, psychopath. Truth be known, they do not care that Obama is or is not eligible, and they certainly do not care whether the U.S. Constitution is complied with according to its true meaning. The only concern is “might makes right.” He won, and that’s that. Now we have Obama-care and free health insurance! Oh! What a beautiful utopia we live in! How can freedom survive in that climate? It is already gasping for air as it is being drowned in the ocean created by indifference, lethargy, self-interest, corruption, ambition and greed. How can a union of fifty states so divided remain in such an opposed and depraved state? It is being held together now only by the fear that the federal government will seek and destroy any state who secedes. (Oh, what a benevolent master we serve!) How can a Republic stand for the principle of self-government in that environment? As the evidence is unfolding, the conclusion is freedom cannot survive, such a union will not remain, and a Republic will not stand in the current conditions. (See my article, Plan For Freedom, for further discussion on, “Will America breakup?”) So, when you consider Obama’s eligibility, look beyond the birth certificate and look at the actual sign: the federal government and system is as illegitimate as Obama is. [1] JB Williams, “DC Knows that Obama is Ineligible for Office,” Canada Free Press (April 20, 2010), found at http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22221. For a follow up article by the same author, see, JB Williams, “The Bottom Line on Natural Born Citizen,” Canada Free Press (April 21, 2010), found at http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/22262. [2] AP Report, “Ariz House: Check Obama’s Citizenship,” KPHO.com Phoenix News, (April 19, 2010), found at http://www.kpho.com/news/23202195/detail.html [3] H.R. 1503: To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act, 111th Congress, 2009-2010 Session, found at http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1503 Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. Good joke.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. As I heard a young guy say one time, "She's heinous, man, heinous!"
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. You are much more. You are a treacherous asshole attempting to cram down my (or anyone's throats) your belief in Christianity and Zionism and McCainism and Palanism... much less GOPism. Go fuck yourself.
"Sarah "Kiss my Torah" Palin" -- Jethro Tull, circa 2010-04-14
I believe it would if you or someone you knew became a statistic of Illegal Alien Crime. You see, 3 years ago, my place of business was broken into. Nearly everything of value stolen. Tools, you name it. Guess who was responsible? Illegal Alien Day Laborers that the building maintenance people hired to fix some pipes in the basement. My place of business was on the 4th floor. 2 years ago, I was in a car accident. An illegal alien hit my vehicle while I was parked in a parking lot. He was drunk as well. Guess who got to pay for the deductible? Me. 3 weeks ago, illegal alien day laborers broke into my garage looking for tools to steal. There was nothing. They were arrested 2 days ago after being caught breaking into a garage up the block. Now, if these scumbags were to tear up your property, steal your stuff, rape your wife daughter or sister, your mind would change pretty fucking quickly Mike. I used to be fairly tolerant of people coming to this country. I am no longer tolerant, and why? Because in addition to all the repairs and insurance premiums these assholes have cost me, my tax dollars subsidize their fucking welfare too. I have a real problem rewarding people for criminal behavior don't you? Because it's not about a Moral Issue. It's a LEGAL issue. Which is where your line of thinking is completely in error.
It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.
Exactly. To Mike anyone that does not agree with him is a racist, bigot etc etc. He is unable to look beyond his own personal lifestyle and thus applies it to everyone else.
I worked five years in the seventies and eighties on and off at 7 Eleven Stores and have been robbed at gunpoint five times, all robbers were native born. My ID was stolen by a native born crankster gangster named Dale Allan Beatty of Cottage Grove and I was arrested as alias my name and spent a night in the Lane County Jail and four days a New Year's Day weekend in the Pierce County Correctional Confinement Facility when he used my license up in Washington State for his failure to appear on a suspended license charge. Sure I was suspended in Oregon at the time as I was not going to pay for an SR 22 filing when I mostly rode bicycles anyway. I have been stolen from by break in by a New Yorker who was a former housemate; native born, and he was caught. I really sympathize, but to me a criminal is a criminal, whether he is an American in Northern Georgia robbing a farm and or raping a wife of a Cherokee farmer off fighting for the U.S. in the Seminole Wars in Florida in the early 1800s which many did, and had happen while gone, or was a Mexican illegal stealing from you, or a Crankster Gangster making my life a horror story. I judge them by their criminality, not by who they are or where they are from.
Inaccurate. If you use race or ethnic background to steal the social standing and well being of an individual or group of people, you are being a bigot. Nice fairy tale, you tell; ut it does not apply to me,
It is indeed an excellent book. Glad you got your tag fixed, and since you are being civil, sorry I snarled at you yesterday. The civility is noted and appreciated.
*sigh* With all due respect, I am flat tired of that nonsense. I will see if I can find one of the many times I have responded exactly the same thing on that and will ping you to it. That should not be too hard. I do not agree with you, and if you do not agree with what I wrote I will ping you to, it is surely your right to.
PictureEugene/ the vortex This is a you tube search words: ":Picture Eugene" from my friend Tim Lewis, enjoy; I was here at this fete. Some nice scenes of cops getting chased and having things thrown at them.
The only and last jobs you've ever had.
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
The 1997 Eugene Tree Riot. The biggest story of the year here. That was one of my least fun extractions from a tree I was sitting in. This is also by Tim Lewis of Cop Watch/Cascadia Forest Defenders.
I am beginning to distrust you, Mike. You would defend a tree and you would defend illegals. There is something ironic with the way you consider the world .... but you won't defend PEOPLE that are native to America.
"Sarah "Kiss my Torah" Palin" -- Jethro Tull, circa 2010-04-14
I judge them by their criminality, not by who they are or where they are from. Entering our country illegally is a felony. That's about as criminal as it gets. You want to talk about how you're about the law, and fairness? You need to stop rationalizing criminal behavior. A criminal is a criminal no matter where they're from right? Well then. Since it's about the law, and about fairness, and we're not judging people by where they're from, then lets start rounding up these criminal felons, and either deporting them, or imprisoning them instead of rewarding them. Because that is the RIGHT thing to do in this case. If we adopted Mexico's immigration policy, these people wouldn't even be here.
It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.
Buckeroo you are an asshole. The world will be better off when you are no longer breathing. Ok asshole.
No problem.
Mike... Just for once, accept the result of what you project. Mike is right, EVERYONE else is wrong, always?????
I am human, thus it is impossible to always be right, but in this case I see this as a break down in communication where something is getting lost in the translation. I just don't judge people by the color of their skin, or their ethnic background. For example, unless my nose is rubbed in it for what to me is an exercise in obsessive compulsive behavior that has no point to it, I just see Barrack Obama, the man who worked long and hard to get elected as president and succeeded. I don't care what country his Dad came from. I don't care that his Mom was a white leftist, or that he was born in Hawaii. I really and honestly truly just don't care. He is a man with his faults and graces, and he brings good and bad with him to his job. I have lived in cities like Fayetteville, North Carolina, and real close to New Haven, Connecticut as well as my beloved home of Eugene, Oregon, and I really wish Eugene had more diversity, as the mix of national backgrounds and different sorts of people from all over the world are pluses Fayetteville and New Have have over Eugene we sure could use. We are almost completely Euro ethnic, and I am here to tell you, it has it's drawbacks. You might like the drabness and consider it nessessary cultural stability, but in my opinion that makes things oppressively boring, boring boring. You I am sure disagree, but this falls under the auspices of difference of opinion, not willful dishonesty. Subjective views are different from dishonesty, and sharing them make the world more interesting and fun to be in. That's my take on this. In any event, thanks for sharing.
Then there was a whole lot of crime involved in the borg-like conquest of what are now called the Americas, yes? We came, destroyed natural beauty and stable ecological webs or life called ecosystems, ruined and destroyed human cultures that had been here for thousands of years, and thus this was crime. OK friend, now I get it. Thanks so much for explaining this concept of crime to me. As you can see, I have grasped your point. ;-D
We came, destroyed natural beauty and stable ecological webs or life called ecosystems, ruined and destroyed human cultures that had been here for thousands of years, and thus this was crime. OK friend, now I get it. Thanks so much for explaining this concept of crime to me. As you can see, I have grasped your point. ;-D So what I'm inferring from your statement then is that two wrongs make a right and by golly ain't schadenfreude fun. I don't know of one single "nasty drab boring boring boring" Euro descent person alive today who is out shooting Indians as a matter of policy or taking over their reservations. Additionally the ecosystem wasn't destroyed (if it was, we'd be dead or gone), and there is infinite natural beauty left in these united States. Your view as expressed is wholly slanted against "drab boring boring boring" European descended people and is boiler plate teaching by hard left pseudo-intellectuals that is both uniform and consistent. Strange, I've never considered Europe bereft of culture, beauty, charm or diverse influences. Traveling helps a bit I suppose.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
I wont, read beyond that part Mike. It would be futile. We are all human. In a desire for civil, polite discourse, I never bozo anyone. Having been reading Mike for ten years or more, it is difficult to understand how so many of us are always wrong, and have NO RIGHT to take a stand for a future for our race/culture.
Read my last post to Cyni above this one. I have always lamented the destruction of the people that were native to 'America.' And I am a devout student of karma. And when I see people rending their hair and clothes complete with screams and hollering about injustice as some of the same medicine they dished out on others is returned to them, like a spoon of Castor oil given to a sick child. I see people that need to shut up, take a dose of their own medicine and to try to learn from the experience. I am consistent on my views on immigration; as they are no different now then when I was banned from liberty Post for them.
Some 'o these flakes that live in Cloud Cuckoo Land in the Drippy Northwest over-populated by "nasty drab boring boring boring" Euros should move to exciting Juarez and experience what the rest of our nation is slowly turning into. It would be a special treat for Vietnam-era vets whose gun fighting skills have become a little rusty over the years.
I see psyops everywhere.
Every person I've heard utter that phrase, in reference to the suffering or bad that happens to others, turns out to be somebody who takes joy in the suffering of innocents. The people who did the "crimes" you speak of, and the people they perpetrated them against, are long long dead and turned to dust. You seem to lust for the suffering of innocent people as some kind of comeuppance for crimes you've never seen perpetrated done by people who no longer exist. In essence, you embody the very notion of collectivism by holding a "group" guilty for the sins of some in the group long, long ago. You, like Obama, may wish for dissenters to sit down and shut up, but the genie is out of the bottle now. You don't get to dictate what we should do any longer, and the pseudo-intellectual mumbo jumbo now has a market value of 0.00 when it comes to intimidation.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
It would be a special treat for Vietnam-era vets whose gun fighting skills have become a little rusty over the years. Seriously. And what in the hell is wrong with our Anglo/Celtic system of common law, rights, culture and expression anyway that it is somehow "boring boring boring"? What we have here represents the very last remnants of a very large and diverse set of cultures that produced a system of rights and freedom that brought humanity forward more in 300 years than the previous combined 20,000+ years of human history was able to. I strongly suspect that those who cry and moan about Western culture and its adherents fantasize about a return to pounding clothes in disease infested rivers, with them at the top of the pig pile as some kind of God-King.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
There is not a thing wrong with cherishing one's culture and defending it. But this should never involve attacking and trying to destroy that of other people. And in thst equation, one is always going to create conflict and drive oneself crazy if one does not recognize that as nice as one's culture was and is, it never lives in a vacuum and is always evolving and changing. And whether it involves people like the Romans adopting the Greek panthion of pagan gods, Christianity coming to Ireland, American kids learning Japanese martial arts, or a million other things, cultures always adopt affectations, ideas, and concepts from others. And when you get a mix of people like we have currently in the United States, eventually we defuse into a unified culture that looks, sounds and acts the same. My instincts and intuition say we will survive as a nation and people and will e around for at least a few more hundred years. And those Americans will look and act differently then we do as racially and culturally we meld together. Change scares people and it should be done carefully and the values and good things of the past should always be learned from, honored and taught. Change, defusion, and other aspects of physics apply to us as well as anything else in the universe. And one can rant, rave and try to defeat them in a valiant joist against a windmill. But sooner or later one is going to have to stop and realize that there are realities that are fundamental such as the laws of physics and trying to make things live in a perfect vacuum of preventing change is not going to happen.
How does the Atzlan movement fit into your statement's intents? Straw man, nobody I know of doesn't recognize that culture changes. Straw man. Being against illegal immigration isn't standing in defiance of physics. It's a political question, not a physics question. Straw man (ibid). Nobody is suggesting static unmoving culture. What is being suggested is that illegal immigration is by definition *illegal* and to allow tens of millions of people to get a pass on a highly illegal act, and to allow them to ferret into the system such that they suck out the resources without contributing to its upkeep, is wrong on a myriad of levels, it is fully and unquestionably theft It has nothing to do with physics and loosely implied references to a cultural Heisenberg principle are fully off base. I dig hispanic culture, for the most part. It too is a European based culture (gasp! boring boring boring!) with influences of AmerInd culture in it, it values family, hard work and being a good neighbor and I'm fully happy with those things. What I, and others, are not terribly happy with are the drug running very dangerous gangs, kidnappers, social welfare leeches and layabouts. If they were being imported directly from Ireland and were doing these things, people here would *still* have a problem with it. In fact, if we examine history, folks were very mad at the Irish who did this in the 19th century. Strange but true. Until you recognize that your view is crafted to fit your preconceived notions and disallows any reasons other than those you've already accepted, you'll continue to be both confused and confronted. Granted, there are some pretty sad elements on 4um who are racists. That said, that doesn't make your arguments valid. The time of PC intimidation is past. It was the pushing of PC intimidation for the last 20 years that has caused the threat you see now in front of you, that seems to be monolithic and impervious to your arguments. Without the value of PC intimidation for you, you're faced with not only principled opponents of illegal immigration, you're also faced with the spectre of some of the uglier aspects of humanity staring you in the eye and not backing down. You overplayed the PC intimidation card, and now hell is about to be paid. Welcome to the world that people like you helped create.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
Cause and effect; what goes on today involves realities their actions created. n that sense, they are very much still around. So if we do not learn from their injustices and errors, we are doomed to repeat them. Not to mention some of the bad is like a string of dominos falling. The bad created can be decreased and even stopped by removing a couple of dominos from the chain. Making amends and or being accountable for the bad things those long dead people did that effect us today can reduce and even end the wrongs and ad things they did. I would say that it is fine to value one's cultural and ethnic heritage aqnd wanting it to live on; but to then say that the bad those cultures did is dead and gone so forget about it smells suspiciously like bipolar disorder on a macro scale. You are not going to create health by living on the candy of the good in past cultural heritage by avoiding the meat and potatoes of the bad one should learn from and even in ways atone for. You can't say, "My culture needs to live on, remember sacred ancestors!!!!!," and then say, "Oh, those people who did bad aare dead, forget about them." To do so just does not make any sense.
Then dig them up and make them pay. I'm not responsible for the sins of my grandfathers, and neither are you. Whomever guilt tripped you like this did you a real disservice. No question. Eliminate the war on drugs, first off, and I'd bet 50% of the problem would disappear over night (at least the violence). Eliminate social welfare as much as possible and make what little is available, available only to those who are citizens here, and the other half is solved. The drug runners/gangs would be deprived of their profits and move on, the social welfare leeches would have nothing to leech and move on, leaving only the hard working, decent folks whom I'd have zero problem giving a fast pass through the immigration system. No, that is entirely off base. You will not buy off a population of entitlement raised individuals by giving them entitlements. History shows again and again that they'll simply declare "not enough!" and be back with their hands out. You people on the left need to learn this. Straw man. Who is ignoring the bad? It's readily admitted. But, if one does not take the collectivist route, one is forced to say "what's done is done, and we didn't do it, long dead people did, let's move forward". There is no such thing as collective guilt. The Euro culture that exists today in America is a work in progress, and is a distilled version that has in fact rejected much (not all) of the bad (slavery, oppression, selective rights) while trying to enhance the good it inherited (however imperfectly). I'm happy with that. Straw man. Nobody is denying past transgressions. See paragraph above. You do not get to assign guilt to me for something people 200 years ago did. Sorry. It doesn't fly any longer. If you wish to wring your hands in pain and anguish over what your grandfather Zebadiah did, that's your prerogative, but you do not get to mandate to me to do the same. That time has passed. Your argument would be more interesting if it wasn't a series of straw men that you keep setting up and knocking down. Debate me, instead of the demons you fabricate in your head, and we'll communicate better.
MapQuest really needs to start their directions on #5. Pretty sure I know how to get out of my neighborhood.
Here is the creator of the Community Media Center in Eugene. You may have talked with him on Liberty Post as RaisedEyeBrows when we both sat up there in that office posting there. He was loved, he is missed.
And here is Cop Watch videographer Tim Lewis who creates 'Picture Eugene' videos. Micah is the banana doing the painting, and just one of them stupid "tree hugging vermin," pay him no mind. (Unless he's alone with yer daughter and a half rack of PBR and some kind bud of course.) Tim and I have been arrested working Cop Watch and he's a scream of a great guy. Why post these to ya? Well, it gives you an accurate taste of what kind of subset of the greater Eugene, Oregon community am proud to belong to. ARGH!
Mike... I agree with that generalization, however there is one caveat, when change comes at the...EXPENSE... of others, there is no justification for demanding such change.
Cause and effect; what goes on today involves realities their actions created. n that sense, they are very much still around. So if we do not learn from their injustices and errors, we are doomed to repeat them. . . . To do so just does not make any sense. It's you, Mike, that's not making sense. Whatever unjust conditions may have obtained in the past cannot be remedied by acceptance of the anarchic conditions that exist along our borders and the attendant bleed over of the narco-crime wave engulfing a thoroughly corrupt Mexico to our south. You cannot make amends by enabling a nation like Mexico, a country with the world's highest proportion of billionaires where many of the inhabitants live in want, by providing that nation with an economic and political steam valve and depriving it of the motivation to better itself. You can if you will, Mike, try to make amends by offering YOUR job to a willing Mexican job seeker, but don't ask an American who's looking for entry-level work or a labor job to do the same. It just isn't right, and an overwhelming number of Americans know that it is not.
I see psyops everywhere.
Oh, I get it. You hate the Europeans for taking over this country. You're one of those self-loathing, humans are destroying mother earth types. It's all so very clear to me now. Apparently the kool-aid you drank was the extra special kind, because this whole conquest of the Americas, has been happening for millenia. People have moved all over the earth, cultures rise and fall. Our culture and our nation has been destroyed from within, because of people who think the same way you do. Your kind of thinking is a malignant cancer that destroys the very soul of a nation. It's unfortunate that you can't see your own treason.
It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.
Well then geez Dr. Science, then the immigration wave into the Gadsden Purchase (known as Venta de La Mesilla, or "Sale of La Mesilla" in Mexico, where the southern part of Arizona is, and was related to reconciliation of outstanding border issues following the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo, which ended the Mexican-American War of 1846–48 is just more of the same, as the ancestors of the people that land was taken from move into old turf looking to make a better life for themselves. Gee, thanks for 'splaining history to an ignorant, no nothing 'bout history dude like me. <./sarcasm>
I am worried for you, Mike. I think while you played with trees and cavorted with all kinds of folks you missed a professional career. And, in the process you think illegals have as much a right to be in the US as we are. I have heard illegal immigrants are the first in line receiving government benefits .... have you observed that?
"Sarah "Kiss my Torah" Palin" -- Jethro Tull, circa 2010-04-14
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#124. To: farmfriend (#118)
#125. To: christine (#124)
#126. To: A K A Stone (#117)
But where do you get this 2.5 million figure.
Lord Acton
#127. To: farmfriend (#118)
Lord Acton
#128. To: Jethro Tull (#119)
Truly a beast.
Lord Acton
#129. To: A K A Stone (#123)
.. I am a traitor ..
#130. To: Ferret (#94)
#131. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#130)
Because it's not about a Moral Issue. It's a LEGAL issue. Which is where your line of thinking is completely in error.
#132. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#130)
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#133. To: Cynicom (#131)
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#134. To: A K A Stone (#106)
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#135. To: RickyJ (#110)
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#136. To: buckeroo (#100)
(Edited)
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#137. To: Ferret (#132)
I worked five years in the seventies and eighties on and off at 7 Eleven Stores
#138. To: buckeroo (#129)
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#139. To: Ferret (#138)
#140. To: Ferret (#132)
I really sympathize, but to me a criminal is a criminal, whether he is an American in Northern Georgia robbing a farm and or raping a wife of a Cherokee farmer off fighting for the U.S. in the Seminole Wars in Florida in the early 1800s which many did, and had happen while gone, or was a Mexican illegal stealing from you, or a Crankster Gangster making my life a horror story.
#141. To: buckeroo (#129)
#142. To: Ferret (#134)
#143. To: Ferret (#133)
Inaccurate.
#144. To: Cynicom (#143)
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#145. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#140)
"Entering our country illegally is a felony. That's about as criminal as it gets."
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#146. To: Ferret (#145)
Then there was a whole lot of crime involved in the borg-like conquest of what are now called the Americas, yes?
#147. To: Ferret (#144)
I am human,
#148. To: buckeroo (#139)
"I am beginning to distrust you, Mike. You would defend a tree and you would defend illegals. There is something ironic with the way you consider the world .... but you won't defend PEOPLE that are native to America."
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#149. To: SonOfLiberty (#146)
#150. To: Ferret (#148)
And I am a devout student of karma.
#151. To: randge (#149)
Some 'o these flakes that live in Cloud Cuckoo Land in the Drippy Northwest over-populated by "nasty drab boring boring boring" Euros should move to exciting Juarez and experience what the rest of our nation is slowly turning into.
#152. To: Cynicom (#147)
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#153. To: Ferret (#152)
(Edited)
There is not a thing wrong with cherishing one's culture and defending it. But this should never involve attacking and trying to destroy that of other people.
And in thst equation, one is always going to create conflict and drive oneself crazy if one does not recognize that as nice as one's culture was and is, it never lives in a vacuum and is always evolving and changing.
Change, defusion, and other aspects of physics apply to us as well as anything else in the universe. And one can rant, rave and try to defeat them in a valiant joist against a windmill.
But sooner or later one is going to have to stop and realize that there are realities that are fundamental such as the laws of physics and trying to make things live in a perfect vacuum of preventing change is not going to happen.
#154. To: SonOfLiberty (#150)
"The people who did the "crimes" you speak of, and the people they perpetrated them against, are long long dead and turned to dust."
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#155. To: Ferret (#154)
Cause and effect; what goes on today involves realities their actions created. n that sense, they are very much still around.
The bad created can be decreased and even stopped by removing a couple of dominos from the chain.
Making amends and or being accountable for the bad things those long dead people did that effect us today can reduce and even end the wrongs and ad things they did.
I would say that it is fine to value one's cultural and ethnic heritage aqnd wanting it to live on; but to then say that the bad those cultures did is dead and gone so forget about it smells suspiciously like bipolar disorder on a macro scale.
You are not going to create health by living on the candy of the good in past cultural heritage by avoiding the meat and potatoes of the bad one should learn from and even in ways atone for. You can't say, "My culture needs to live on, remember sacred ancestors!!!!!," and then say, "Oh, those people who did bad aare dead, forget about them."
#156. To: buckeroo (#139)
(Edited)
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#157. To: buckeroo (#139)
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#158. To: Ferret (#152)
But sooner or later one is going to have to stop and realize that there are realities that are fundamental such as the laws of physics and trying to make things live in a perfect vacuum of preventing change is not going to happen.
#159. To: Ferret (#154)
"The people who did the "crimes" you speak of, and the people they perpetrated them against, are long long dead and turned to dust."
#160. To: Ferret (#145)
#161. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#160)
"...because this whole conquest of the Americas, has been happening for millenia.People have moved all over the earth, cultures rise and fall. Our culture and our nation has been destroyed from within, because of people who think the same way you do."
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#162. To: Ferret (#157)
Why post these to ya? Well, it gives you an accurate taste of what kind of subset of the greater Eugene, Oregon community am proud to belong to. ARGH!
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