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Title: US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills
Source:
Associated Press
URL Source: [None]
Published: May 21, 2010
Author: SLOBODAN LEKIC
Post Date: 2010-05-21 21:20:15 by Flintlock
Keywords: None
Views: 656
Comments: 55
KABUL, Afghanistan – The U.S. military's workhorse rifle — used in battle for the last 40 years — is proving less effective in Afghanistan against the Taliban's more primitive but longer range weapons. As a result, the U.S. is reevaluating the performance of its standard M-4 rifle and considering a switch to weapons that fire a larger round largely discarded in the 1960s. The M-4 is an updated version of the M-16, which was designed for close quarters combat in Vietnam. It worked well in Iraq, where much of the fighting was in cities such as Baghdad, Ramadi and Fallujah. But a U.S. Army study found that the 5.56 mm bullets fired from M-4s don't retain enough velocity at distances greater than 1,000 feet (300 meters) to kill an adversary. In hilly regions of Afghanistan, NATO and insurgent forces are often 2,000 to 2,500 feet (600-800 meters) apart. Afghans have a tradition of long-range ambushes against foreign forces. During the 1832-1842 British-Afghan war, the British found that their Brown Bess muskets could not reach insurgent sharpshooters firing higher-caliber Jezzail flintlocks. Soviet soldiers in the 1980s found that their AK-47 rifles could not match the World War II-era bolt-action Lee-Enfield and Mauser rifles used by mujahedeen rebels. "These are important considerations in Afghanistan, where NATO forces are frequently attacked by insurgents using ... sharpshooter's rifles, which are all chambered for a full-powered cartridge which dates back to the 1890s," said Paul Cornish, curator of firearms at the Imperial War Museum in London. The heavier bullets enable Taliban militants to shoot at U.S. and NATO soldiers from positions well beyond the effective range of the coalition's rifles. To counter these tactics, the U.S. military is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, according to Maj. Thomas Ehrhart, who wrote the Army study. They are equipped with the new M-110 sniper rifle, which fires a larger 7.62 mm round and is accurate to at least 2,500 feet (800 meters). At the heart of the debate is whether a soldier is better off with the more-rapid firepower of the 5.56mm bullets or with the longer range of the 7.62 mm bullets. "The reason we employ the M-4 is because it's a close-in weapon, since we anticipate house-to-house fighting in many situations," said Lt. Col. Denis J. Riel, a NATO spokesman. He added that each squad also has light machine guns and automatic grenade launchers for the long-range engagements common in Afghanistan. In the early years of the Vietnam War, the Army's standard rifle was the M-14, which fired a 7.62 mm bullet. The gun had too much recoil to be controllable during automatic firing and was considered too unwieldily for close-quarter jungle warfare. The M-16 replaced it in the mid-1960s. Lighter bullets also meant soldiers could carry more ammunition on lengthy jungle patrols. The M-16 started a general trend toward smaller cartridges. Other weapons such as the French FAMAS and the British L85A1 adopted them, and the round became standardized as the "5.56mm NATO." The Soviet Union, whose AK-47 already used a shorter 7.62 mm bullet that was less powerful but more controllable, created a smaller 5.45mm round for its replacement AK-74s. "The 5.56 mm caliber is more lethal since it can put more rounds on target," said Col. Douglas Tamilio, program manager for U.S. Army firearms at the Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey. "But at 500-600 meters (1,600-2,000 feet), the round doesn't have stopping power, since the weapon system was never designed for that." The arsenal, which is the Army's center for small-arms development, is trying to find a solution. A possible compromise would be an interim-caliber round combining the best characteristics of the 5.56mm and 7.62mm cartridges, Tamilio said. The challenge is compounded by the fact that in flat areas of Afghanistan, most firefights take place at shorter ranges of up to 1,000 feet (300 meters), where the M-4 performs well. U.S. soldiers in militant-infested Zhari district in southern Afghanistan's Kandahar province said they haven't experienced problems with the range of their M-4 rifles. Lt. Scott Doyle, a platoon commander in Zhari, said his troops are usually facing Taliban AK-47s. "When the Taliban get past 300 meters (1,000 feet) with an AK-47, they are just spraying and praying," he said. Martin Fackler, a ballistics expert, also defended the 5.56 mm round, blaming the M-4s inadequate performance on its short barrel, which makes it easier for soldiers to scramble out of modern armored vehicles. "Unfortunately weapon engineers shortened the M-16's barrel to irrational lengths," Fackler said. "It was meant for a 20-inch barrel. What they've done by cutting the barrel to 14.5 inches is that they've lost a lot of velocity." ___
Poster Comment: When 'arf of your bullets fly wide in the ditch, An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Don't call your Martini a cross-eyed old bitch;
She's human as you are -- you treat her as sich,
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#15. To: Flintlock (#14)
Damned straight. I'm also going to be trying out another rifle a friend of mine is wanting to sell. I'm looking forward to Sunday's festivities.
It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.
I liked the ad to the left about learning to drive the big rigs.
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
See this?? They're using Lee-Enfield (.303 caliber) and K98 Mauser rifles (8x57mm caliber) because they get the job done. Issue them Springfield Armory Model 1903. Accurate, reliable, real stopping power.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
So the Brits were the first to get their butt's handed to them in Afghanistan. And they lasted 10 years there, just like the Soviets in the 80's. I guess maybe we'll finally be done after 10 years too, which would be 2 more years. That sounds about right.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
I hope you're right, but things are different now. This is all about the NWO as laid out by Thomas P.M. Barnett in his book "The Pentagon's New Map". Barnett clearly states that a part of the US Military will never come home. Those are his words not mine.
WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)
You're talking about the Mauser, no? No. I had a drill replica as a kid - I loved that thing. By the time I was 7 I could do the full manual at arms. My father shot for the national championship with a rifle like this. Match Version
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Gorgeous pieces at your link, just outstanding.
I want one - just like the one my dad shot. Glad you enjoyed.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
They are too pretty (and pricey) for me to take one out in the field. I've come around to the many benefits of polymer frames.
Too rich for my blood currently, but I have wanted my own 1903 since I was a kid, and I will get one sooner or later. I want to drop an Elk with it.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
All the scientific, technical and military knowledge in the world won't win an otherwise stupid or silly war that has nothing to do with directly protecting America.
"Sarah "Kiss my Torah" Palin" -- Jethro Tull, circa 2010-04-14
That's the elephant in the living room that deecee will never acknowledge.
Thank you. Still not in the budget right now but nice to think about. :-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I already have 2 spots picked out - 1 in Oregon's Blue Mountains, and 1 in Montana in the Rockies. What worries me though is the spread of CJD/Mad Cow in the Elk and Deer population. I know it has showed up in Colorado, but don't know about Montana and Oregon.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Savages and others made in the USA were stamped US Property because they were on loan to Britain. The ones returned to the US from England had to be stamped as imports, because they were being imported back into the US. The markings sound correct for that rifle.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
If it says Savage, it probably is. The logo is a square with an S in it. What I was commenting on was your doubts about the import markings. If it returned to the US from Britain it would be marked IMPORT, and that's what it should have on it, if it has US Property on it. The property mark means it was LENT to Britain and still owned by the US. So from your description all the markings sound like the right ones, for a WW II rifle. Yes the flip peep sight sure sounds like No 4 MK1* which was the most common for that era. Much longer/better sight radius with the rear one back on the receiver. The most important thing with Lee-Enfield's is to clean them IMMEDIATELY after shooting, if you're using surplus corrosive ammo. Check the barrel before you buy, but expect to see some corrosion pitting. Most have at least a little.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
This Springfield Armory Model 1903 (but in one of the later versions - such as the one my Marine Scout-Sniper Father carried in the South Pacific). Good home defense and when TSHTF rifle? Yes, depending upon the terrain. If you are going to be shooting from 50 yards or more go for the Springfield - the sniper version if you can find one. Closer in you might want something more nimble. Properly set up and sighted it is one of the finest infantry rifles ever issued. The best shot I ever knew, the man who raised me, swore it was the best infantry rifle ever made. The German Mauser was good too, but the Springfield, well, it's American all the way, and that's special. Of course having a B.A.R. with a bi-pod around would be nice, but the Feds frown on the Peons have automatic weaponry - so don't tell anyone you have it.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
Cool. And you can trust my discretion on the B.A.R. - mum's the word. ;-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
There's a pressure relief weep hole on the left side of the receiver near the chamber. Well, a buddy of mine has one that spits chunks of brass out of that hole, leaving a corresponding hole near the base of the spent cartridges. That's too much corrosion and erosion of the chamber. Needless to say, no one stands to the left of him while he's shooting. Erosion channels lengthwise in the barrel and chamber is too much. If the lands and groves are well defined with no visible erosion it should be good.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
The USMC version was based on Model 1903A1 and came from the existing inventory of "Match" rifles. Marine armorers outfitted it with a special 8X Unerti target-type telescope procured under special USMC contract. You want the Marine version, or a 1903A1 NMA (Match weapon) which can then be modded as needed. The 1903A4, made for the Army, was based on the mass produced 1903A3. The 1903A3 was produced by Remington and Smith Corona to cover the shortfall in infantry rifles at the onset of WWII. Not that the "A3" is not a good rifle - it was just not made to the same tolerances as the A1 Match Weapons. By all accounts I have read the Army version 1903A4 Sniper, based on the 1903A3, is inferior to the Marine version which was based on the aforementioned 1903A1 Match Rifle. The Marine version remained in use through the Korean War. Just remember - when it absolutely positively has to be blown up overnight call a Marine. You might have to buy a standard 1903A1 and have it modded as it requires a real expert, which I am not, to authenticate whether it is the real Marine version. The real Marine Sniper is very rare and I was half joking when I suggested it as the good ones are mostly held by collectors and are fiendishly expensive. Here are a couple of links in addition to the ones I listed in the post with the picture:
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
M-16's (M-4, AR-15, ETC) have always pretty much sucked when sand came near them, never mind the caliber of round being underpowered compared to that of the enemy. Almost like they cared more about keeping the arms dealers happy than what would be the best battle rifle for the US military.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
I wish I could be of more help, but although I am enamored of the rifle and the legends that surround it, and because my father carried one, I have to admit that I would need to do some work before I ventured into the marketplace. This is supposed to be THE bible on the 1903: "The Model 1903 Springfield Rifle And It's Variations, A part by part examination" by Joe Poyer, Ed Furler, Jr. and North Cape Publications. The main things that are identifying for the 1903A1 NM that I am aware of is that an authentic weapon should have the 1930's (or before) Star Gauge Barrel, it should should show a legitimate 60 years of wear on the stock, and otherwise I need to do my homework. The Unerti/Unertl scope is serial numbered, I forget the sequence here off the cuff - I think 1000-2775, but that is not a guarantee that the accompanying rifle is the original weapon. The Marine Sniper Rifles, as I mentioned, were taken from existing stock and modded by Marine Armorers and the serial numbers are all over the place.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
No data, but a kit, while they can be very good, is not the same as a Match Weapon "tuned" and fitted by a Master Gunsmith. The 1903A1 NM (National Match) weapons received that kind of attention. However a kit would be a lot cheaper too, and if of sufficient quality could be nodded and tuned to give a pretty close approximation of the original. However, you would have to ask someone, a gunsmith, who does that kind of modding whether any given kit is worthwhile as a baseline.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Two BARs here - one in 7MM w/BOSS and the other really cool one in .22LR which were only made for a couple of years.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one. "You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
Two BARs here - one in 7MM w/BOSS and the other really cool one in .22LR which were only made for a couple of years. During WWII Marine Scout Sniper Teams generally carried a B.A.R. as one of their "tools" for flushing out targets for the rest of the team. My dad ended up carrying one on Pelilau when the Marine who had been carrying conducted a real estate deal. He had a love hate relationship with it because they get heavy and reduce your mobility, but he liked the firepower. When you are operating behind enemy lines, and discovery equals dead, fatigue and mobility are important considerations. I often wonder what it was like. He really would never talk much about it except with his brothers who had been there as well - one with Patton and one a Marine Sgt. before he was wounded at Iwo Jima and sent home. He did show me the pucker wounds where he was shot - one in his left arm and one about 6 inches from the "Crown Jewels" in the fleshy part of the thigh. Marine Scout Snipers didn't have a long life expectency in the South Pacific. I know one thing - he had great respect for the Filipinos from when he spent time operating with the Phillipine Resistance. He said the Japanese were scared shitless by them. His squad would pin them down and then the filipinos would circle around above the Japanese in the trees and come down from above so silently that the Japanese were not aware of their presence until they felt the knife cut into their throat.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I'll find out what kind of kit this is and report back. You're welcome and I would be very much interested in that data.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#16. To: X-15 (#13)
#17. To: X-15 (#4)
#18. To: X-15, Eric Stratton (#4)
Soviet soldiers in the 1980s found that their AK-47 rifles could not match the World War II-era bolt-action Lee-Enfield and Mauser rifles used by mujahedeen rebels.
#19. To: Flintlock (#0)
During the 1832-1842 British-Afghan war, the British found that their Brown Bess muskets could not reach insurgent sharpshooters firing higher-caliber Jezzail flintlocks.
#20. To: Original_Intent (#18)
#21. To: Pinguinite (#19)
#22. To: Pinguinite (#19)
I guess maybe we'll finally be done after 10 years too, which would be 2 more years.
#23. To: Eric Stratton (#20)
(Edited)
Issue them Springfield Armory Model 1903. Accurate, reliable, real stopping power.
#24. To: Original_Intent (#23)
#25. To: Lod (#24)
#26. To: Original_Intent (#25)
#27. To: Lod (#26)
#28. To: Original_Intent, elk hunters (#27)
here's one outfitter/guide - I think that I could get up for that outing -
#29. To: Original_Intent, elk hunters (#26)
here's one for 1K -
#30. To: Flintlock (#0)
US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills
#31. To: buckeroo, 4 (#30)
All the scientific, technical and military knowledge in the world won't win an otherwise stupid or silly war that has nothing to do with directly protecting America.
#32. To: Lod (#29)
#33. To: Lod (#28)
here's one outfitter/guide - I think that I could get up for that outing -
#34. To: Eric Stratton (#20)
Says imported, but I am doubting that.
My joy over McCain's defeat, is offset by my disappointment over hObama's victory.
#35. To: hondo68 (#34)
#36. To: Original_Intent (#23)
#37. To: Eric Stratton (#35)
So you're saying it's not a Savage, or it is?
My joy over McCain's defeat, is offset by my disappointment over hObama's victory.
#38. To: hondo68 (#37)
#39. To: Eric Stratton (#36)
No.
#40. To: Original_Intent (#39)
#41. To: Original_Intent (#39)
#42. To: Eric Stratton (#40)
LOL I'll poke around for the 1903.
#43. To: Eric Stratton (#38)
How much corrosion pitting would you say is too much?
My joy over McCain's defeat, is offset by my disappointment over hObama's victory.
#44. To: hondo68 (#43)
#45. To: Eric Stratton (#41)
#46. To: Flintlock (#0)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#47. To: Original_Intent (#45)
#48. To: FormerLurker (#46)
#49. To: Eric Stratton (#47)
#50. To: Original_Intent, All (#49)
#51. To: Eric Stratton (#50)
#52. To: Original_Intent, 4 (#39)
Of course having a B.A.R. with a bi-pod around would be nice, but the Feds frown on the Peons have automatic weaponry - so don't tell anyone you have it.
#53. To: Original_Intent (#51)
#54. To: Lod (#52)
Of course having a B.A.R. with a bi-pod around would be nice, but the Feds frown on the Peons have automatic weaponry - so don't tell anyone you have it.
#55. To: Eric Stratton (#53)
Thanks!
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