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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Source: townhall.com
URL Source: http://townhall.com/columnists/Mary ... r_issue_than_rights_of_a_child
Published: May 26, 2010
Author: Marybeth Hicks
Post Date: 2010-05-26 09:06:24 by Eric Stratton
Keywords: None
Views: 1225
Comments: 132

Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Marybeth Hicks
Wednesday, May 26, 2010

If you’re a parent, you’re probably too busy doing the day-to-day work of raising your children to worry about an international treaty that could actually undermine your authority over them.

But if you’ve ever insisted that your teenager drag himself out of bed on a Sunday morning to attend church with the family, or required him to find a part-time job to pay for the increase in your car insurance, or – heaven forbid – if you’ve ever spanked a young child for an act of willful disobedience, there are folks who’d like to override your parental judgment.

Folks like President Obama, in fact.

The issue of parental rights is at the heart of the ongoing debate over the US’s failure to ratify the UN’s Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC). Mr. Obama thinks it’s a travesty that the US and Somalia – a country not known as a beacon of human rights – are the only two nations that haven’t ratified this treaty. Not only does he support its intrusions into our national sovereignty on behalf of children, he’s openly embarrassed to be on the short list with Somalia.

Up to now, it’s been a worried American homeschool community that most vocally opposes the CRC. That’s because the treaty clearly places responsibility for the education of children in the hands of the federal government. Such a mandate would certainly threaten the freedom of states to allow, and of parents to choose, homeschooling as an option to educate their children.

But it’s not just homeschooling parents who ought to be nervous about the CRC. We all should because the language of the treaty – which would supersede all American law other than the Constitution – radically changes the authority structure between parents, children and the state. In short, in line after line, it applies the standard of “the best interests of the child” to determine what’s permissible and what isn’t.

For example, the treaty creates "the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion." So if your child doesn’t want to go to a religious school, the law would favor his preference, not your desire to instill your faith.

It prohibits "arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy," which means you’d better not snoop in your son’s pockets while sorting the laundry. This could literally be illegal, and too bad if you find something to set off your parental alarm.

In fact, in Scotland, a CRC nation, a pamphlet for Scottish children explaining how they are helped by the treaty says, “In Scotland, the law recognises that your parents should normally be the people who care for you, if it’s the best thing for you.”

That’s very different from a provision that might say, “You have the right to the protection and care of your parents and can only be removed from your family if you are the victim of abuse or neglect.” The reason it doesn’t read this way is because that’s not what the CRC intends.

And who decides what’s “the best thing”? Take a guess.

It makes sense that the US stands nearly alone in refusing to ratify this treaty, since we live in the safest, most prosperous, most desirable country in which to be a child.

The CRC makes sense in places where girls can be sold into marriage at age 10, or where children are routinely victims of the sex trades, or of child labor abuse.

But in the US, the only logical reason to sign the CRC is to expand, through that new “international order” the president mentioned this past weekend, the role of the federal government into the daily lives and decisions of American parents and families.

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) has introduced S.R. 519, opposing ratification of the CRC. He hopes to find 34 co-sponsors and thereby signal to the president that there’s no need to send the treaty to the Senate for advice and consent since it wouldn’t pass. This is the end-run play; the game winner is a Parental Rights Amendment to the Constitution.

It’s a good time to call a Senator or two and encourage them to join in co-sponsoring Sen. DeMint’s resolution.

Click for Full Text!

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#1. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

or – heaven forbid – if you’ve ever spanked a young child for an act of willful disobedience, there are folks who’d like to override your parental judgment.

Assaulting kids is not within the proper realm of "parental judgment" for any being more advanced than the chimps.

If the best or only option one can come up with is to use ones overwhelming physical advantage to hurt ones child - then one is a failed parent who is unfit to have custody of anyone.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-05-26   12:11:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Patriot Henry (#1)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-05-26   20:59:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Patriot Henry (#1)

If the best or only option one can come up with is to use ones overwhelming physical advantage to hurt ones child - then one is a failed parent who is unfit to have custody of anyone.

That's insane. You know full well that spanking isn't about inflict injury, it is to establish societal norms. Often times the only way to deal with a two-year-old is a slap on the hand and immediate denouement. Outlawing common sense empowers tyrants.

In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S. Thompson

Dakmar  posted on  2010-05-26   21:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Dakmar (#3)

That's insane. You know full well that spanking isn't about inflict injury, it is to establish societal norms. Often times the only way to deal with a two-year-old is a slap on the hand and immediate denouement. Outlawing common sense empowers tyrants.

Spanking is about inflicting pain. Using pain as a negative reinforcement method on a child is a means befitting sociopathic Pavlovian social engineers and barbaric brutes.

If the only or best means available to you to communicate and teach a 2 year old is brute force - then you have failed and the child has not.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   12:30:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Patriot Henry (#4)

Have you ever had children, or are you just preaching what you've been told?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-04   13:00:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: FormerLurker (#5)

Have you ever had children, or are you just preaching what you've been told?

Neither. My views are determined through my using my ability to reason.

A 120-220+ pound person hurting a 20-80lb person under the pretext of "BECAUSE I SAID SO" is behavior that belongs to primates, primitives, and the like.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   14:22:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Patriot Henry (#4)

A simple slap on the hand is not brute force, it's a slap on the hand and serves more as a warning than some kind of torturous infliction of pain. It's never to be administered such that it causes severe tragic pain, but instead as a warning that the parent isn't kidding or playing games.

While I agree that one should normally refrain from violence with a child, and should always try techniques not based in violence, there are times when the hand needs slapped away in order to prevent a greater harm. If the kid is trying to touch a hot motorcycle pipe, and I keep saying no, and he insists, I might let him touch it briefly assuming it's not *that* hot. Experience is the best teacher in those situations. Afterwards we can talk about things like "dad knows certain things can hurt you, you need to listen when he says not to touch something".

If the kid is reaching into a boiling pot of water, and I'm screaming no as I run to stop him, and he continues with a smile on his face (as a 4 year old testing you is wont to do), I will in fact slap his hand once I reach him, assuming he hasn't taken the plunge. There is a point where you need stronger reinforcement than words, and a 4 year old doesn't take to reason immediately and always tries to push boundaries. If they don't understand a motorcycle pipe is hot, I'm ok with letting them learn through experience under the stipulations above. Boiling water on the other hand can cause some severe damage that the tyke's mind just can't grasp at that stage in his development, and he needs negative reinforcement when reasoning or even yelling don't seem to get through and he's about to cause serious perhaps permanent physical damage.

Once you've discovered, as a parent, that kids are always pushing boundaries, you learn to set boundaries. Once you've discovered, as a parent, that kids don't play by reason and logic like you thought they would before you had children, your views adjusts accordingly. Theory, as it turns out, is only right some of the time in regards to child rearing techniques, and half the theory out there is written by people with no actual experience parenting.

Me, I've only slapped my boy's hand one time in his life (he's 13 going on 14 now) and my daughter's one time as well (she's 10 soon 11). That's all it took, and both incidents were of the boiling water variety. All other tests/pushing/misdeeds were handled without. But damned if I'm going to let my kids disfigure themselves or worse just to stay in line with some inane theory.

I do think that a lot of parents take a bit of sadistic pleasure in being the Dominant Overlord and don't set boundaries for *themselves* on these things, which is where I think people like you draw conclusions that all hand slapping is somehow barbaric. Keep in mind though that blanket condemnations of activities like this, with no experience backing them up on your behalf, don't resonate with people who actually are in the process of raising kids.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-06-04   14:43:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Patriot Henry (#6)

Neither. My views are determined through my using my ability to reason.

Ah hah, another know it all who's never raised a child who thinks he knows everything there is to know. Go make a baby and come back to us when you have some real experience with children, and don't rely on bullshit you read in books for your "expertise".

A 120-220+ pound person hurting a 20-80lb person under the pretext of "BECAUSE I SAID SO" is behavior that belongs to primates, primitives, and the like.

A parent doesn't spank a child to "hurt them", a parent spanks a child to teach them things like they can't stick forks into electrical outlets and other such important things. Be around a toddler sometime, they are VERY curious, stubborn, and determined to do what it is they feel like doing, and the ONLY way to teach them NOT to do that thing that happens to be EXTREMELY dangerous is to give them a mild spank on the bum or a slap on the hand, since words do NOT matter.

I suppose people like you would try to reason with them, and then allow them to kill themselves since you are so afraid of "hurting" them. That, or allow them to do whatever they please, from whipping turds all over the house, to breaking everything they can find, if so inclined.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-04   15:16:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: FormerLurker, Patriot Henry, SonOfLiberty (#8)

A parent doesn't spank a child to "hurt them", a parent spanks a child to teach them things like they can't stick forks into electrical outlets and other such important things.

I used to babysit for my neighbors, and they had an extremely bratty three year old boy. This boy insisted on fiddling with the wooden stick propping up a large window on their enclosed porch. While I was watching him, he wasn't allowed to pull on the stick, but one day I was over there while his parents were home, and they kept trying to deter him with pleas of "No, Junior, baby mustn't play with with stick". What do you suppose happened?

Whammo, once Junior pulled that stick out the window came crashing down, damned near severing three of the little tykes fingers, they had to ruch him to the emergency room. I thought my smacking his hands away (and once or twice pushing him backward to fall on his butt) was much more productive. Of course, locking the little bugger in his room would have been even better, but he kept screaming so his Mommy would let him out after five minutes, and of course he'd head straight for the window.

All in all, I gotta vote for a slap on the hand given the options in that particular case.

PH: Yes, I realize the parents were idiots, the mother anyway. The father, best I recall, agreed that a slap on the hand was most elegant solution to safeguard Junior's long-term well-being.

In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S. Thompson

Dakmar  posted on  2010-06-04   19:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: FormerLurker (#8)

Ah hah, another know it all who's never raised a child who thinks he knows everything there is to know. Go make a baby and come back to us when you have some real experience with children, and don't rely on bullshit you read in books for your "expertise".

As I said, I base my views on REASON. I also never claimed to know everything there is to know about the subject of raising kids. I only said that spanking kids is wrong, and should be illegal, just like spanking your parents, your siblings, your neighbors, your teachers, your policemen (try spanking a cop the next time you meet a jerk in uniform and see how that goes for you).

Assaulting a child is the sign of being weak, morally intellectually and emotionally.

Perhaps I should speak on your level: UGGG UGGG UGGG uhhh UGG!

A parent doesn't spank a child to "hurt them"

Right. That's why they hit the child and the child cries and screams in pain in direct response to being hit. Cause and effect are not related?

a parent spanks a child to teach them things like they can't stick forks into electrical outlets and other such important things.

Yes, other important things, like to always get "A"s, or to take out the trash now and not in five minutes, or because the parent changed the rule/standard in an arbitrary and irrational manner, or because.... well there's so many parents and so many reasons they abuse their kids there isn't any point trying to list them all.

" Be around a toddler sometime, they are VERY curious, stubborn, and determined to do what it is they feel like doing, and the ONLY way to teach them NOT to do that thing that happens to be EXTREMELY dangerous is to give them a mild spank on the bum or a slap on the hand, since words do NOT matter. "

That depends on the child - some kids can understand words and the concept of danger at that age. It also depends on the parents ability to communicate. Also, many times the child being violently beat is not a toddler and the "lesson" has nothing to do with danger.

>>I suppose people like you would try to reason with them, and then allow them to kill themselves since you are so afraid of "hurting" them. That, or allow them to do whatever they please, from whipping turds all over the house, to breaking everything they can find, if so inclined.

If they don't respond to reason they are not old enough to be around dangers. If you think a 2 year old, a fork, and an uncovered outlet is a safe situation in which any dangers that arise can be settled by hitting the kid then YOU ARE A FAILURE.

When you put a child into a dangerous situation and hit them for being a kid in the dangerous situation that you put them in - YOU ARE A FAILURE.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:04:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Dakmar, FormerLurker, SonOfLiberty (#9)

All in all, I gotta vote for a slap on the hand given the options in that particular case.

There is a major difference between a slap on the hand in defense of the child and a series of premeditated or impulsive strikes intended to hurt or harm the child.

Situation 1. A child is about to touch a hot stove. The mother slaps their hand to keep them from burning their hand.

Situation 2. A child says "those shoes are ugly". The mother spanks the child 20 times.

Situation 3. A child finishes their homework by 6pm as their parent ordered them to. The parent flies off the handle and says "I said 5pm you brat" and then hits the child 5 times before spanking them 10 times.

According to the advocates of child abuse, all of these are fine and dandy.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:11:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Patriot Henry (#10)

I'm sure Patrick Henry was taken out to the wood shed by his old man a couple of times in his life. He turned out ok, no?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-06-04   23:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Patriot Henry (#11)

Situation 1... Situation 2... Situation 3...

I didn't realize you were one of those screamin mimis.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-06-04   23:16:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: SonOfLiberty (#7)

It's never to be administered such that it causes severe tragic pain, but instead as a warning that the parent isn't kidding or playing games.

With enough money, time, and effort I could put together a million American parents who hit their kids who have a combined total of intelligence and sense that is not equal to half of your own.

Once you've discovered, as a parent, that kids don't play by reason and logic like you thought they would before you had children, your views adjusts accordingly.

I played by reason and logic. I realize now that I am a natural born freak.

I do think that a lot of parents take a bit of sadistic pleasure in being the Dominant Overlord and don't set boundaries for *themselves* on these things, which is where I think people like you draw conclusions that all hand slapping is somehow barbaric.

I wasn't referring to defensive hand slapping. I was referring to the parents who brutally abuse their kids well within the bounds of the law.

So many parents are idiotic, insane, incompetent, irrational, and otherwise incapable of using force in a rational manner that it makes no sense to authorize them to use force as they wish upon their children.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:16:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Critter (#13)

I didn't realize you were one of those screamin mimis.

Situation 4. Child hits a triple winning the Little League game. After they get home, Dad says "I told you to get a home run" and then spanks the child 12 times.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Patriot Henry (#15)

Were you beaten as a child?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-06-04   23:19:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Critter (#16)

Were you beaten as a child?

No, I was as well behaved as any child could be. However my mother was irrational and use punishments in an irrational manner. I can not begin to imagine how traumatic life must be for kids with a crazy parent who likes to exercise their "parental authority" in a physical way.

Just because you are the parent doesn't make you right. Pain as punishment is a carte blanch for the abuse of parental authority. There is no remedy, no recourse, no appeal for a child stuck with a crazy parent who hits them for crazy reasons.

Of course, y'all don't seem to mind that kids are routinely assaulted by their parents for the stupidest, craziest, and most foolish reasons possible.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:25:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: All (#17)

Situation 5: A father says "Son, get me the 14mm ratchet". Child returns with the 12mm ratchet. Father proceeds to yell at and assault the child.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:28:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Patriot Henry (#10) (Edited)

As I said, I base my views on REASON.

No, you base your views on your preconceived notions, where you have ZERO knowledge to base your "reasoning" on, and view any sort of parental control as "abuse".

I also never claimed to know everything there is to know about the subject of raising kids. I only said that spanking kids is wrong, and should be illegal,

It is wrong to show a child that what they are doing is dangerous? Since you appear to think toddlers have the same intelligence as a grown adult, perhaps you should find a person willing to let you sit down with their 2 year old and discuss right and wrong.

just like spanking your parents, your siblings, your neighbors, your teachers, your policemen (try spanking a cop the next time you meet a jerk in uniform and see how that goes for you).

Adults have the ABILITY to reason, toddlers do NOT. AND, those other people are NOT your direct responsibility, whereas your own child IS your direct responsibility, and what THEY do YOU are responsibile for.

Assaulting a child is the sign of being weak, morally intellectually and emotionally.

You are one sick idiotic bastard if you think a slap on the hand is the same as a smack across the face with a closed fist.

Perhaps I should speak on your level: UGGG UGGG UGGG uhhh UGG!

Perhaps that's what YOUR kid will be doing when he drinks the Drano that you let him drink since you were afraid to yell at him not to do it, or to slap his hand when he first grabbed it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-05   20:44:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Patriot Henry (#15) (Edited)

Situation 4. Child hits a triple winning the Little League game. After they get home, Dad says "I told you to get a home run" and then spanks the child 12 times.

Well there we go, your parents were horrible monsters so ALL parents must be horrible monsters. Get some help before you end up worse than them.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-05   20:45:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Patriot Henry (#10)

Also, many times the child being violently beat is not a toddler and the "lesson" has nothing to do with danger.

Again, your irrational thoughts based upon your own abusive parent's irrational actions leads you to equate a slap on the hand with a baseball bat across the back.

If they don't respond to reason they are not old enough to be around dangers. If you think a 2 year old, a fork, and an uncovered outlet is a safe situation in which any dangers that arise can be settled by hitting the kid then YOU ARE A FAILURE.

The average home is FILLED with dangers, be it a stove, a stairwell, windows, and a zillion other things that lie in wait. Unless of course you think a child should be locked up in a padded room 24/7, or strapped into a chair from which he can't escape, the average child can and WILL find things that can pose a danger and cause him harm.

If you can't teach a child NOT to do something dangerous because you have some irrational fear of "harming" that child, YOU are a failure.

As far as outlets, that was an example, but forks are pretty easy to find, and outlet covers DO come off, and are especially easy to access if the child pulls out a lamp from a socket and decides to probe it with some metal object, whether it be a fork, a paper clip, or anything else he might be able to find.

Or perhaps the best way is to let them just go ahead and do it, eh? Maybe if he just gets a nice strong shock and his heart doesn't stop, it absolved YOU of the need to teach that child a lesson, and YOU can feel good that YOU didn't have to "hurt" that child by slapping their hand when they were about to stick that paper clip into the socket.

Perhaps you should just shut up and get yourself a vasectomy, never date women with kids, and that way you'll never have to worry about it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-05   20:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: FormerLurker (#19)

No, you base your views on your preconceived notions, where you have ZERO knowledge to base your "reasoning" on, and view any sort of parental control as "abuse".

I didn't say that about "any sort of parental control". The offensive use of pain is an abuse. Barbarians, savages, criminals, and other low life losers use this means of communication. The more humane and intelligent people have no need for it. As I recall from your earlier post you do not abuse your kids - so why do you defend the "right" of others to do so?

How about retards and senile old folks who are in a citizens custody. Is it okay to hurt them if they get out of line?

It is wrong to show a child that what they are doing is dangerous?

No. However, if the danger is "fork in an outlet" and the lesson taught is "Papa gonna hurt you real good" then that is dangerous. Not only was the danger not addressed, a new danger was introduced.

Since you appear to think toddlers have the same intelligence as a grown adult, perhaps you should find a person willing to let you sit down with their 2 year old and discuss right and wrong.

That doesn't seem to make much sense. Grown adults can't discuss right and wrong. They are too dumbed down. From what I've seen most kids, if raised well, by the age of two can understand simple things such as "DANGER" in the tone of a parents voice and they can respond appropriately.

AND, those other people are NOT your direct responsibility, whereas your own child IS your direct responsibility, and what THEY do YOU are responsibile for.

If you can only control your responsibility by hurting it - then again, you have failed. That is a sign of failure. If you have employees, you are responsible for the quality and quantity of work they output. If you have to resort to hitting them, you have failed.

You are one sick idiotic bastard if you think a slap on the hand is the same as a smack across the face with a closed fist.

They are different in terms of technique and degree - but they are same in principle if the purpose is to hurt the victim.

Perhaps that's what YOUR kid will be doing when he drinks the Drano that you let him drink since you were afraid to yell at him not to do it, or to slap his hand when he first grabbed it.

If I fail, or by some chance have an idiot for a kid, then I will yell at or slap the hand of my own child. Otherwise I'll use communication, based on reason and or emotion depending upon the situation and the child and their age and nature. A simple "NOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear and command should be enough to control most kids.

In addition - why would I be storing children and Draino in the same area?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   12:29:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: FormerLurker (#20)

Well there we go, your parents were horrible monsters so ALL parents must be horrible monsters. Get some help before you end up worse than them.

My parents were liberal "hippies" from Mass. Horrible monsters in some ways but they didn't hurt their kids (at least not physically speaking).

I never said ALL parents were horrible monsters. I was and am saying that the use of pain as a compliance technique is the method of monsters.

Is it okay to use electricity on a child? One can easily control the power so that it hurts no more and no less than a particular slap or spanking or belt.

Or how about making them kneel or maintain other painful physical positions?

And of course, using a large board to beat them is okay in many states, so you don't have any problem with that right?

You don't see any potential problem with authorizing parents to use pain and physical harm as a means of parenting with the only standard being that it can't result in any lasting physical damage? You don't see anything wrong with authorizing parents to abuse and torture their kids?

Situation 6. Everyday before dinner Momma spanks each child 25 times, for making her cook the dinner. Every single day until they are 18 or run away.

You are cool with that? After all, it's just "parental control" right?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   12:36:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Patriot Henry (#10)

If they don't respond to reason they are not old enough to be around dangers.

Look, Patriot Henry, you raise our kids as you see fit and I'll raise mine as I see fit. The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13....that's why those years are so difficult. Kids have this new cognitive ability but they have no applicable experience to apply to experiences.

Reason with a 2 year old? lol Spoken like a person who has never spent any time with 2 year olds.

Most of us have been spanked as a child and do not view our parents as child abusers for it. In fact, when a situation called for spanking......I always FINALLY learned my lesson.

Do you suggest that parents who have a wood stove in the house opt to freeze to death rather than keep the kiddie a room with the danger where it is warm? Children are in dangerous situations all the time--electrical outlets in the house, rocks outside. The idiocy of your commentary is astounding. Your solution is to REASON with them, even when 10 time-outs fails to get your point across.

Don't quit your day job to preach parenting techniques.....

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   12:53:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Patriot Henry (#23)

You don't see anything wrong with authorizing parents to abuse and torture their kids?

Situation 6. Everyday before dinner Momma spanks each child 25 times, for making her cook the dinner. Every single day until they are 18 or run away.

Gee, could up pump up the melodrama a bit more? Even your hypotheticals are ridiculous for a person who claims to have a firm grasp on reason.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   12:55:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: abraxas (#24)

Look, Patriot Henry, you raise our kids as you see fit and I'll raise mine as I see fit. The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13....that's why those years are so difficult. Kids have this new cognitive ability but they have no applicable experience to apply to experiences.

None of that is a good reason to allow parents to hurt their kids as they see fit, since most of those parents (despite being well over 12-13) do not have the capacity for reason.

You really think it's okay to use a board larger than a child to beat the child?

how about spanking 1 day olds for crying? That is permitted under the current laws. That's cool by you that people raise their kids like that?

Most of us have been spanked as a child and do not view our parents as child abusers for it. In fact, when a situation called for spanking......I always FINALLY learned my lesson.

Perhaps if we didn't stifle kids intellects they would be able to learn through more sophisticated means at a younger age.

Your solution is to REASON with them, even when 10 time-outs fails to get your point across.

There are many ways and many options. I do realize that most kids won't respond to reason as I did. While the use of moderate pain to prevent a harm is the result of the child and or parent being stupid, it is reasonable. However, it is not reasonable to allow parents to hurt their kids for any reason in any way so long as it doesn't break their bones or necessitate stitches or emergency surgery.

Don't quit your day job to preach parenting techniques.....

I won't - make sure you don't quit your day job to advocate parents hurting their kids "BECAUSE I SAID SO".

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:00:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: abraxas (#25)

Gee, could up pump up the melodrama a bit more? Even your hypotheticals are ridiculous for a person who claims to have a firm grasp on reason.

Many parents are stupid, insane, or otherwise incompetent and they create situations which are melodramatic and dramatic for no good reason.

The only thing y'all have done with the situations I have posited is to ignore them. You do the exact same thing with the real life equivalents. You ignore them. You remain ignorant and cover your ears and your eyes and pretend that the only use of pain compliance is moderate, reasonable, and judiciously executed by a caring loving parent.

Why do y'all have to ignore the real world applications of parental pain compliance? Is it because you actually hurt your kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner, or because your parents did that to you, or because you are so naive and innocent you just can't imagine how horrible and stupid other people are?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:06:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: FormerLurker (#21)

Again, your irrational thoughts based upon your own abusive parent's irrational actions leads you to equate a slap on the hand with a baseball bat across the back.

No, it's the fact that hitting kids with a board bigger than a baseball bat is permitted in Ohio for teachers even.

Why are you in denial about the reality of "spanking"/hurting kids?

I'm not equating those two things - but since you only acknowledge the slap on the hand situation while ignoring that the beating with a stick is not only permitted and practiced in some situations it is also paid for by taxbux - you sure seem to be.

The average home is FILLED with dangers, be it a stove, a stairwell, windows, and a zillion other things that lie in wait. Unless of course you think a child should be locked up in a padded room 24/7, or strapped into a chair from which he can't escape, the average child can and WILL find things that can pose a danger and cause him harm.

Yep. And they will either learn from the parent or from the danger. If they aren't smart enough to learn by reason or emotion from the parent, or figure out from the danger, then they ain't gonna connect the pain with the problem.

As far as outlets, that was an example, but forks are pretty easy to find, and outlet covers DO come off, and are especially easy to access if the child pulls out a lamp from a socket and decides to probe it with some metal object, whether it be a fork, a paper clip, or anything else he might be able to find.

And again, so the kid is a kid, so you hurt them? That makes sense - if you are a barbarian.

Perhaps you should just shut up and get yourself a vasectomy, never date women with kids, and that way you'll never have to worry about it.

Even if I have a child holding a fork next to an outlet I won't be worried about it, and I also won't be hurting the child. I most especially won't be using the full range of "parental control" that you so blindly defend without considering it's nature.

Situation 7. Child gets a C+ in math instead of all Bs as required by the parental unit. Parental unit retrieves the beating stick (no larger than permitted by govt statute) and then uses it to make the child feel a great deal of pain while suffering no lasting injuries.

Why should that be permitted? Why should parents be allowed to inflict pain on their kids only "BECAUSE I SAID SO"?

There are two good reasons. The parents are barbarians - or because they are training their kids to complacently accept whatever irrational rules and punishments the state imposes no matter how cruel stupid and insane they are.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: abraxas (#24)

The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13...

So says Piaget and other "experts". I disagree. I have not infrequently seen young children exercise superior abilities of reason, judgment, and discernment than adults 20-80+.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:11:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Patriot Henry (#27)

Many parents are stupid, insane, or otherwise incompetent and they create situations which are melodramatic and dramatic for no good reason.

And this you know from absolutely no personal experience?

Furthmore, you have no idea what I do or do not do in real life situations. Your entire premise is completely unsubstantiated. Don't tell me what I ignore or do not ignore. Speaking of ignorant of the facts......let me remind you that you have no parenting experience--nada, zip, zilch.

Where did you pull this "parental pain compliance" diatriabe from? Do you honestly believe that parents "hurt their kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner"? Really? Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage.

Please, for the good of the gene pool.......don't have children.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:17:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Patriot Henry (#29)

So says Piaget and other "experts". I disagree. I have not infrequently seen young children exercise superior abilities of reason, judgment, and discernment than adults 20-80+.

I'm quite certain that you have as much experience with middle schoolers as you have had parenting--nada, zip, zilch.

I think your experience with children in general has been even less than infrequent. And, your less than infrequent observasations really don't stand up to the work of theorists who spent their lives researching the matter or people what actually spend time parenting or teaching kids of all ages day in and day out.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#30)

And this you know from absolutely no personal experience?

I do know that from my own life. There is also ample statistical and scientific research documenting that many parents are idiots, madmen, fools, hypocrites, and otherwise unable to use pain in an appropriate manner for a parent, particularly under the incredibly broad powers awarded to them by the state.

Furthmore, you have no idea what I do or do not do in real life situations. Your entire premise is completely unsubstantiated.

My premise is substantiated. Many parents hurt their kids in ways that should be punished by time in a cage.

Where did you pull this "parental pain compliance" diatriabe from?

I was inspired by watching the knuckle draggers, the hooligans with younger hooligans, the fools, the idiots, etc.

Do you honestly believe that parents "hurt their kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner"? Really? Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage.

You are FUCKING WRONG. You really believe that EVERY SINGLE TIME a parent hits their kid it's for a good reason? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

If you were a kid you would be naive and it would be cute. At your age it's ignorance and it's fucking ugly.

Wake the fuck up - this ain't Mr. Rogers fucking neighborhood!

Please, for the good of the gene pool.......don't have children.

Right - the one person who has the intelligence and moral fiber not to assault the weak and defenseless shouldn't reproduce, but the masses of morons, psychos, and other incompetents should, as they are willing to hurt their own children because their idiocy, insanity, or foolishness says so.

What the fuck is your malfunction?

Maybe it's a guilty conscience from all the times you hurt your kids for no good reason or no reason at all? Maybe you remember them screaming, crying, perhaps bleeding and you have to justify that?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:27:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: abraxas (#31)

I'm quite certain that you have as much experience with middle schoolers as you have had parenting--nada, zip, zilch.

I was actually referring to kids as young as 4-5 years of age. They often can outthink people who have gotten PhDs, as they haven't gone through the process of being dumbed down, indoctrinated, and having their soul, curiosity, and imagination killed.

I think your experience with children in general has been even less than infrequent. And, your less than infrequent observasations really don't stand up to the work of theorists who spent their lives researching the matter or people what actually spend time parenting or teaching kids of all ages day in and day out.

That is the fallacy of authority. The "experts" are a bunch of statists- as are the teachers and almost all of the parents. Is it any surprise that those people who are subjected to being controlled by an arbitrary and capricious system run by the insane and the idiotic (and whom are often those very insane and idiotic enforcers of that system) happen to believe in the convenient neat simpleton theories that are conducive to insane and idiotic people controlling their kids by an arbitrary and capricious system?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:37:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Patriot Henry (#32)

You are FUCKING WRONG. You really believe that EVERY SINGLE TIME a parent hits their kid it's for a good reason? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

If you were a kid you would be naive and it would be cute. At your age it's ignorance and it's fucking ugly.

As a parent, and a friend of MANY other parents, I can state that in my experiences I have NEVER seen a parent slap a hand or spank a child for no good reason. NOT ONCE. Yes, I'm sure there are parents out there who abuse their power, like a liberal yelling at the top of their lungs cursing at others on the interneet.

Stop spitting on your monitor and get control of yourself. I can see how you would parent. Yell and curse at the kids while you play holier than thou. Yeah, that REALLY gets your point across......not.

When you can't muster up an intelligent commentary and your child refuses to reason are you going to say, "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MALFUNCTION?" Just call those who don't agree with you fucking morons......use that fuck adjective liberally because it's just so darn effective. (eyes rolling)

You are verbally assaulting on this thread, yet you want to wag your finger all around at people you do not know and have absolutely no knowledge about. Astounding really. What happened to reason?

I have no guilty conscience......lol. You're killin' me here with this liberal idiocy. Again, for the good of the gene pool and to keep the instances of verbal abuse against children down--don't have any kids.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Patriot Henry (#33)

First, thinking and REASONING aren't the same thing.

Yes, all the world is wrong and only Patriot Henry holds the torch of truth. Get a load of yourself......a pantload.

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

Rather than spewing insults at parents and spewing idiocy, why don't you get some therapy for the damage done by your hippie parents?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: abraxas (#34)

As a parent, and a friend of MANY other parents, I can state that in my experiences I have NEVER seen a parent slap a hand or spank a child for no good reason. NOT ONCE. Yes, I'm sure there are parents out there who abuse their power, like a liberal yelling at the top of their lungs cursing at others on the interneet.

And all you've seen is all there is to see? Nope.

Stop spitting on your monitor and get control of yourself. I can see how you would parent. Yell and curse at the kids while you play holier than thou. Yeah, that REALLY gets your point across......not.

Not much will get a point across to folks who have no problem with insane parents hurting their kids with a large board for absolutely no reason..or any of the other abuses that routinely happen by the means you defend.

When you can't muster up an intelligent commentary and your child refuses to reason are you going to say, "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MALFUNCTION?" Just call those who don't agree with you fucking morons......use that fuck adjective liberally because it's just so darn effective. (eyes rolling)

Reason won't work with you, now will it? Maybe I should come over there and smack you one. That will work right? That's the language you speak?

You are verbally assaulting on this thread, yet you want to wag your finger all around at people you do not know and have absolutely no knowledge about. Astounding really. What happened to reason?

I have enough knowledge about you to judge you - you are willing to blindly support the use of pain by parents without considering the actual range of natures of parents, kids, and pain compliance.

You are willing to defend child abuse. What good will reason do with the likes of you?

Also, I was hungry and my blood sugar dropped. I apologize for the profanity and shocking lack of manners.

I have no guilty conscience......lol. You're killin' me here with this liberal idiocy. Again, for the good of the gene pool and to keep the instances of verbal abuse against children down--don't have any kids.

Right, so I should not have kids lest I yell at them in an inappropriate manner, but it's okay for others to have kids and for them to hit/hurt their kids in an inappropriate manner?

Gotcha. Child abuse is fine so long as it's done with the fist, the belt, the boot, the elbow, the board. My mind is not swayed.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: abraxas (#35)

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

So the way to teach kids to be responsible for their actions is through pain?

I'm not a "liberal". My opposition to your barbaric parental practices doesn't mean I'm a "softie". You say I am one of those monsters - but they would say I am one of you because I defend the slapping of kids hands to keep the hands off the stove. My opposition to parents hurting their kids because they are unfit doesn't make me a "liberal".

Rather than spewing insults at parents and spewing idiocy, why don't you get some therapy for the damage done by your hippie parents?

What would you suggest, a dominatrix with a belt?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:59:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: abraxas (#35)

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

That is only part of the problem. The corresponding part is that the "conservatives" have kids and raise them to be rule following obeying compliant well trained service monkeys who love and defend the state, that monopoly on offensive force that imposes irrational rules and senseless standards upon others. The liberals support the welfare state. The conservatives support the warfare state. Their parenting styles reflect their statism. The correct way for adults and children is not "no rules" nor is it "arbitrary rules backed by force". While you are correct to oppose the former, you are wrong to support the latter - and by supporting parental pain compliance without qualifying a reasonable standard you support the worst creeps out there.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   14:07:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Patriot Henry (#36)

Reason won't work with you, now will it?

Right, so I should not have kids lest I yell at them in an inappropriate manner, but it's okay for others to have kids and for them to hit/hurt their kids in an inappropriate manner.

I have enough knowledge about you to judge you - you are willing to blindly support the use of pain by parents without considering the actual range of natures of parents, kids, and pain compliance.

I have yet to witness any reasoning from you. Try more use of fuck in your posts because that's real effective. Are you going to use the blood sugar excuse on your kids too? I think they will be as willing to except that excuse as I am.

I am for being accountable for my actions and I teach my children to be accountable for theirs. Parenting is about setting boundaries. A spanking isn't about an abuse of power it is about teaching a child that there are consequences for actions when time outs are not successful in teaching the lesson.

A reasoning person would actually be able to articulate the difference between slapping a kid on the hand or a swat on the butt and child abuse. A reasoning person would clearly be able to see that verbal abuse is actually just as destructive as spanking for no good reason. Yelling is simply an inability for a parent to control their emotions.......yes, I'm guilty of yelling at times and I honestly feel more guilt over that than following through on a spanking after time outs failed to deter the behaviour that required discipline.

I blindly support nothing. I actually have experience in this arena of using a range of behavior modifications with children, with positive results. You, on the other hand, have none.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:10:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Patriot Henry (#38)

you are wrong to support the latter - and by supporting parental pain compliance without qualifying a reasonable standard you support the worst creeps out there.

I have offered you a reasonable standard. I have also deliniated the creeps from the well-intentioned parents. You should do the same. I know, it's tough to admit that all parents do not fit into your utopian ideals that have yet to collide with the realities of parenting, but that is the first step toward reasoning in this discussion.

According to you, all parents are doing everything wrong and you are the sole voice of truth regarding the topic of parenting despite having no experience in this matter whatsoever. Admit it, you are woefully underqualified to judge parents and offer parenting tips.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:19:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

All your chirrun are belong to me!

For it is not the wolf or any of the other beasts that would join the contest in any noble danger, but rather a good man. — Aristotle, Politics, Book IIX

Turtle  posted on  2010-06-06   14:24:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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