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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Source: townhall.com
URL Source: http://townhall.com/columnists/Mary ... r_issue_than_rights_of_a_child
Published: May 26, 2010
Author: Marybeth Hicks
Post Date: 2010-05-26 09:06:24 by Eric Stratton
Keywords: None
Views: 1122
Comments: 132

Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Marybeth Hicks
Wednesday, May 26, 2010

If you’re a parent, you’re probably too busy doing the day-to-day work of raising your children to worry about an international treaty that could actually undermine your authority over them.

But if you’ve ever insisted that your teenager drag himself out of bed on a Sunday morning to attend church with the family, or required him to find a part-time job to pay for the increase in your car insurance, or – heaven forbid – if you’ve ever spanked a young child for an act of willful disobedience, there are folks who’d like to override your parental judgment.

Folks like President Obama, in fact.

The issue of parental rights is at the heart of the ongoing debate over the US’s failure to ratify the UN’s Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC). Mr. Obama thinks it’s a travesty that the US and Somalia – a country not known as a beacon of human rights – are the only two nations that haven’t ratified this treaty. Not only does he support its intrusions into our national sovereignty on behalf of children, he’s openly embarrassed to be on the short list with Somalia.

Up to now, it’s been a worried American homeschool community that most vocally opposes the CRC. That’s because the treaty clearly places responsibility for the education of children in the hands of the federal government. Such a mandate would certainly threaten the freedom of states to allow, and of parents to choose, homeschooling as an option to educate their children.

But it’s not just homeschooling parents who ought to be nervous about the CRC. We all should because the language of the treaty – which would supersede all American law other than the Constitution – radically changes the authority structure between parents, children and the state. In short, in line after line, it applies the standard of “the best interests of the child” to determine what’s permissible and what isn’t.

For example, the treaty creates "the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion." So if your child doesn’t want to go to a religious school, the law would favor his preference, not your desire to instill your faith.

It prohibits "arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy," which means you’d better not snoop in your son’s pockets while sorting the laundry. This could literally be illegal, and too bad if you find something to set off your parental alarm.

In fact, in Scotland, a CRC nation, a pamphlet for Scottish children explaining how they are helped by the treaty says, “In Scotland, the law recognises that your parents should normally be the people who care for you, if it’s the best thing for you.”

That’s very different from a provision that might say, “You have the right to the protection and care of your parents and can only be removed from your family if you are the victim of abuse or neglect.” The reason it doesn’t read this way is because that’s not what the CRC intends.

And who decides what’s “the best thing”? Take a guess.

It makes sense that the US stands nearly alone in refusing to ratify this treaty, since we live in the safest, most prosperous, most desirable country in which to be a child.

The CRC makes sense in places where girls can be sold into marriage at age 10, or where children are routinely victims of the sex trades, or of child labor abuse.

But in the US, the only logical reason to sign the CRC is to expand, through that new “international order” the president mentioned this past weekend, the role of the federal government into the daily lives and decisions of American parents and families.

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) has introduced S.R. 519, opposing ratification of the CRC. He hopes to find 34 co-sponsors and thereby signal to the president that there’s no need to send the treaty to the Senate for advice and consent since it wouldn’t pass. This is the end-run play; the game winner is a Parental Rights Amendment to the Constitution.

It’s a good time to call a Senator or two and encourage them to join in co-sponsoring Sen. DeMint’s resolution.

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#1. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

or – heaven forbid – if you’ve ever spanked a young child for an act of willful disobedience, there are folks who’d like to override your parental judgment.

Assaulting kids is not within the proper realm of "parental judgment" for any being more advanced than the chimps.

If the best or only option one can come up with is to use ones overwhelming physical advantage to hurt ones child - then one is a failed parent who is unfit to have custody of anyone.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-05-26   12:11:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Patriot Henry (#1)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-05-26   20:59:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Patriot Henry (#1)

If the best or only option one can come up with is to use ones overwhelming physical advantage to hurt ones child - then one is a failed parent who is unfit to have custody of anyone.

That's insane. You know full well that spanking isn't about inflict injury, it is to establish societal norms. Often times the only way to deal with a two-year-old is a slap on the hand and immediate denouement. Outlawing common sense empowers tyrants.

In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S. Thompson

Dakmar  posted on  2010-05-26   21:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Dakmar (#3)

That's insane. You know full well that spanking isn't about inflict injury, it is to establish societal norms. Often times the only way to deal with a two-year-old is a slap on the hand and immediate denouement. Outlawing common sense empowers tyrants.

Spanking is about inflicting pain. Using pain as a negative reinforcement method on a child is a means befitting sociopathic Pavlovian social engineers and barbaric brutes.

If the only or best means available to you to communicate and teach a 2 year old is brute force - then you have failed and the child has not.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   12:30:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Patriot Henry (#4)

Have you ever had children, or are you just preaching what you've been told?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-04   13:00:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: FormerLurker (#5)

Have you ever had children, or are you just preaching what you've been told?

Neither. My views are determined through my using my ability to reason.

A 120-220+ pound person hurting a 20-80lb person under the pretext of "BECAUSE I SAID SO" is behavior that belongs to primates, primitives, and the like.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   14:22:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Patriot Henry (#4)

A simple slap on the hand is not brute force, it's a slap on the hand and serves more as a warning than some kind of torturous infliction of pain. It's never to be administered such that it causes severe tragic pain, but instead as a warning that the parent isn't kidding or playing games.

While I agree that one should normally refrain from violence with a child, and should always try techniques not based in violence, there are times when the hand needs slapped away in order to prevent a greater harm. If the kid is trying to touch a hot motorcycle pipe, and I keep saying no, and he insists, I might let him touch it briefly assuming it's not *that* hot. Experience is the best teacher in those situations. Afterwards we can talk about things like "dad knows certain things can hurt you, you need to listen when he says not to touch something".

If the kid is reaching into a boiling pot of water, and I'm screaming no as I run to stop him, and he continues with a smile on his face (as a 4 year old testing you is wont to do), I will in fact slap his hand once I reach him, assuming he hasn't taken the plunge. There is a point where you need stronger reinforcement than words, and a 4 year old doesn't take to reason immediately and always tries to push boundaries. If they don't understand a motorcycle pipe is hot, I'm ok with letting them learn through experience under the stipulations above. Boiling water on the other hand can cause some severe damage that the tyke's mind just can't grasp at that stage in his development, and he needs negative reinforcement when reasoning or even yelling don't seem to get through and he's about to cause serious perhaps permanent physical damage.

Once you've discovered, as a parent, that kids are always pushing boundaries, you learn to set boundaries. Once you've discovered, as a parent, that kids don't play by reason and logic like you thought they would before you had children, your views adjusts accordingly. Theory, as it turns out, is only right some of the time in regards to child rearing techniques, and half the theory out there is written by people with no actual experience parenting.

Me, I've only slapped my boy's hand one time in his life (he's 13 going on 14 now) and my daughter's one time as well (she's 10 soon 11). That's all it took, and both incidents were of the boiling water variety. All other tests/pushing/misdeeds were handled without. But damned if I'm going to let my kids disfigure themselves or worse just to stay in line with some inane theory.

I do think that a lot of parents take a bit of sadistic pleasure in being the Dominant Overlord and don't set boundaries for *themselves* on these things, which is where I think people like you draw conclusions that all hand slapping is somehow barbaric. Keep in mind though that blanket condemnations of activities like this, with no experience backing them up on your behalf, don't resonate with people who actually are in the process of raising kids.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-06-04   14:43:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Patriot Henry (#6)

Neither. My views are determined through my using my ability to reason.

Ah hah, another know it all who's never raised a child who thinks he knows everything there is to know. Go make a baby and come back to us when you have some real experience with children, and don't rely on bullshit you read in books for your "expertise".

A 120-220+ pound person hurting a 20-80lb person under the pretext of "BECAUSE I SAID SO" is behavior that belongs to primates, primitives, and the like.

A parent doesn't spank a child to "hurt them", a parent spanks a child to teach them things like they can't stick forks into electrical outlets and other such important things. Be around a toddler sometime, they are VERY curious, stubborn, and determined to do what it is they feel like doing, and the ONLY way to teach them NOT to do that thing that happens to be EXTREMELY dangerous is to give them a mild spank on the bum or a slap on the hand, since words do NOT matter.

I suppose people like you would try to reason with them, and then allow them to kill themselves since you are so afraid of "hurting" them. That, or allow them to do whatever they please, from whipping turds all over the house, to breaking everything they can find, if so inclined.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-04   15:16:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: FormerLurker, Patriot Henry, SonOfLiberty (#8)

A parent doesn't spank a child to "hurt them", a parent spanks a child to teach them things like they can't stick forks into electrical outlets and other such important things.

I used to babysit for my neighbors, and they had an extremely bratty three year old boy. This boy insisted on fiddling with the wooden stick propping up a large window on their enclosed porch. While I was watching him, he wasn't allowed to pull on the stick, but one day I was over there while his parents were home, and they kept trying to deter him with pleas of "No, Junior, baby mustn't play with with stick". What do you suppose happened?

Whammo, once Junior pulled that stick out the window came crashing down, damned near severing three of the little tykes fingers, they had to ruch him to the emergency room. I thought my smacking his hands away (and once or twice pushing him backward to fall on his butt) was much more productive. Of course, locking the little bugger in his room would have been even better, but he kept screaming so his Mommy would let him out after five minutes, and of course he'd head straight for the window.

All in all, I gotta vote for a slap on the hand given the options in that particular case.

PH: Yes, I realize the parents were idiots, the mother anyway. The father, best I recall, agreed that a slap on the hand was most elegant solution to safeguard Junior's long-term well-being.

In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S. Thompson

Dakmar  posted on  2010-06-04   19:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: FormerLurker (#8)

Ah hah, another know it all who's never raised a child who thinks he knows everything there is to know. Go make a baby and come back to us when you have some real experience with children, and don't rely on bullshit you read in books for your "expertise".

As I said, I base my views on REASON. I also never claimed to know everything there is to know about the subject of raising kids. I only said that spanking kids is wrong, and should be illegal, just like spanking your parents, your siblings, your neighbors, your teachers, your policemen (try spanking a cop the next time you meet a jerk in uniform and see how that goes for you).

Assaulting a child is the sign of being weak, morally intellectually and emotionally.

Perhaps I should speak on your level: UGGG UGGG UGGG uhhh UGG!

A parent doesn't spank a child to "hurt them"

Right. That's why they hit the child and the child cries and screams in pain in direct response to being hit. Cause and effect are not related?

a parent spanks a child to teach them things like they can't stick forks into electrical outlets and other such important things.

Yes, other important things, like to always get "A"s, or to take out the trash now and not in five minutes, or because the parent changed the rule/standard in an arbitrary and irrational manner, or because.... well there's so many parents and so many reasons they abuse their kids there isn't any point trying to list them all.

" Be around a toddler sometime, they are VERY curious, stubborn, and determined to do what it is they feel like doing, and the ONLY way to teach them NOT to do that thing that happens to be EXTREMELY dangerous is to give them a mild spank on the bum or a slap on the hand, since words do NOT matter. "

That depends on the child - some kids can understand words and the concept of danger at that age. It also depends on the parents ability to communicate. Also, many times the child being violently beat is not a toddler and the "lesson" has nothing to do with danger.

>>I suppose people like you would try to reason with them, and then allow them to kill themselves since you are so afraid of "hurting" them. That, or allow them to do whatever they please, from whipping turds all over the house, to breaking everything they can find, if so inclined.

If they don't respond to reason they are not old enough to be around dangers. If you think a 2 year old, a fork, and an uncovered outlet is a safe situation in which any dangers that arise can be settled by hitting the kid then YOU ARE A FAILURE.

When you put a child into a dangerous situation and hit them for being a kid in the dangerous situation that you put them in - YOU ARE A FAILURE.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:04:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Dakmar, FormerLurker, SonOfLiberty (#9)

All in all, I gotta vote for a slap on the hand given the options in that particular case.

There is a major difference between a slap on the hand in defense of the child and a series of premeditated or impulsive strikes intended to hurt or harm the child.

Situation 1. A child is about to touch a hot stove. The mother slaps their hand to keep them from burning their hand.

Situation 2. A child says "those shoes are ugly". The mother spanks the child 20 times.

Situation 3. A child finishes their homework by 6pm as their parent ordered them to. The parent flies off the handle and says "I said 5pm you brat" and then hits the child 5 times before spanking them 10 times.

According to the advocates of child abuse, all of these are fine and dandy.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:11:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Patriot Henry (#10)

I'm sure Patrick Henry was taken out to the wood shed by his old man a couple of times in his life. He turned out ok, no?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-06-04   23:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Patriot Henry (#11)

Situation 1... Situation 2... Situation 3...

I didn't realize you were one of those screamin mimis.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-06-04   23:16:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: SonOfLiberty (#7)

It's never to be administered such that it causes severe tragic pain, but instead as a warning that the parent isn't kidding or playing games.

With enough money, time, and effort I could put together a million American parents who hit their kids who have a combined total of intelligence and sense that is not equal to half of your own.

Once you've discovered, as a parent, that kids don't play by reason and logic like you thought they would before you had children, your views adjusts accordingly.

I played by reason and logic. I realize now that I am a natural born freak.

I do think that a lot of parents take a bit of sadistic pleasure in being the Dominant Overlord and don't set boundaries for *themselves* on these things, which is where I think people like you draw conclusions that all hand slapping is somehow barbaric.

I wasn't referring to defensive hand slapping. I was referring to the parents who brutally abuse their kids well within the bounds of the law.

So many parents are idiotic, insane, incompetent, irrational, and otherwise incapable of using force in a rational manner that it makes no sense to authorize them to use force as they wish upon their children.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:16:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Critter (#13)

I didn't realize you were one of those screamin mimis.

Situation 4. Child hits a triple winning the Little League game. After they get home, Dad says "I told you to get a home run" and then spanks the child 12 times.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Patriot Henry (#15)

Were you beaten as a child?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-06-04   23:19:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Critter (#16)

Were you beaten as a child?

No, I was as well behaved as any child could be. However my mother was irrational and use punishments in an irrational manner. I can not begin to imagine how traumatic life must be for kids with a crazy parent who likes to exercise their "parental authority" in a physical way.

Just because you are the parent doesn't make you right. Pain as punishment is a carte blanch for the abuse of parental authority. There is no remedy, no recourse, no appeal for a child stuck with a crazy parent who hits them for crazy reasons.

Of course, y'all don't seem to mind that kids are routinely assaulted by their parents for the stupidest, craziest, and most foolish reasons possible.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:25:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: All (#17)

Situation 5: A father says "Son, get me the 14mm ratchet". Child returns with the 12mm ratchet. Father proceeds to yell at and assault the child.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-04   23:28:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Patriot Henry (#10) (Edited)

As I said, I base my views on REASON.

No, you base your views on your preconceived notions, where you have ZERO knowledge to base your "reasoning" on, and view any sort of parental control as "abuse".

I also never claimed to know everything there is to know about the subject of raising kids. I only said that spanking kids is wrong, and should be illegal,

It is wrong to show a child that what they are doing is dangerous? Since you appear to think toddlers have the same intelligence as a grown adult, perhaps you should find a person willing to let you sit down with their 2 year old and discuss right and wrong.

just like spanking your parents, your siblings, your neighbors, your teachers, your policemen (try spanking a cop the next time you meet a jerk in uniform and see how that goes for you).

Adults have the ABILITY to reason, toddlers do NOT. AND, those other people are NOT your direct responsibility, whereas your own child IS your direct responsibility, and what THEY do YOU are responsibile for.

Assaulting a child is the sign of being weak, morally intellectually and emotionally.

You are one sick idiotic bastard if you think a slap on the hand is the same as a smack across the face with a closed fist.

Perhaps I should speak on your level: UGGG UGGG UGGG uhhh UGG!

Perhaps that's what YOUR kid will be doing when he drinks the Drano that you let him drink since you were afraid to yell at him not to do it, or to slap his hand when he first grabbed it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-05   20:44:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Patriot Henry (#15) (Edited)

Situation 4. Child hits a triple winning the Little League game. After they get home, Dad says "I told you to get a home run" and then spanks the child 12 times.

Well there we go, your parents were horrible monsters so ALL parents must be horrible monsters. Get some help before you end up worse than them.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-05   20:45:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Patriot Henry (#10)

Also, many times the child being violently beat is not a toddler and the "lesson" has nothing to do with danger.

Again, your irrational thoughts based upon your own abusive parent's irrational actions leads you to equate a slap on the hand with a baseball bat across the back.

If they don't respond to reason they are not old enough to be around dangers. If you think a 2 year old, a fork, and an uncovered outlet is a safe situation in which any dangers that arise can be settled by hitting the kid then YOU ARE A FAILURE.

The average home is FILLED with dangers, be it a stove, a stairwell, windows, and a zillion other things that lie in wait. Unless of course you think a child should be locked up in a padded room 24/7, or strapped into a chair from which he can't escape, the average child can and WILL find things that can pose a danger and cause him harm.

If you can't teach a child NOT to do something dangerous because you have some irrational fear of "harming" that child, YOU are a failure.

As far as outlets, that was an example, but forks are pretty easy to find, and outlet covers DO come off, and are especially easy to access if the child pulls out a lamp from a socket and decides to probe it with some metal object, whether it be a fork, a paper clip, or anything else he might be able to find.

Or perhaps the best way is to let them just go ahead and do it, eh? Maybe if he just gets a nice strong shock and his heart doesn't stop, it absolved YOU of the need to teach that child a lesson, and YOU can feel good that YOU didn't have to "hurt" that child by slapping their hand when they were about to stick that paper clip into the socket.

Perhaps you should just shut up and get yourself a vasectomy, never date women with kids, and that way you'll never have to worry about it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-05   20:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: FormerLurker (#19)

No, you base your views on your preconceived notions, where you have ZERO knowledge to base your "reasoning" on, and view any sort of parental control as "abuse".

I didn't say that about "any sort of parental control". The offensive use of pain is an abuse. Barbarians, savages, criminals, and other low life losers use this means of communication. The more humane and intelligent people have no need for it. As I recall from your earlier post you do not abuse your kids - so why do you defend the "right" of others to do so?

How about retards and senile old folks who are in a citizens custody. Is it okay to hurt them if they get out of line?

It is wrong to show a child that what they are doing is dangerous?

No. However, if the danger is "fork in an outlet" and the lesson taught is "Papa gonna hurt you real good" then that is dangerous. Not only was the danger not addressed, a new danger was introduced.

Since you appear to think toddlers have the same intelligence as a grown adult, perhaps you should find a person willing to let you sit down with their 2 year old and discuss right and wrong.

That doesn't seem to make much sense. Grown adults can't discuss right and wrong. They are too dumbed down. From what I've seen most kids, if raised well, by the age of two can understand simple things such as "DANGER" in the tone of a parents voice and they can respond appropriately.

AND, those other people are NOT your direct responsibility, whereas your own child IS your direct responsibility, and what THEY do YOU are responsibile for.

If you can only control your responsibility by hurting it - then again, you have failed. That is a sign of failure. If you have employees, you are responsible for the quality and quantity of work they output. If you have to resort to hitting them, you have failed.

You are one sick idiotic bastard if you think a slap on the hand is the same as a smack across the face with a closed fist.

They are different in terms of technique and degree - but they are same in principle if the purpose is to hurt the victim.

Perhaps that's what YOUR kid will be doing when he drinks the Drano that you let him drink since you were afraid to yell at him not to do it, or to slap his hand when he first grabbed it.

If I fail, or by some chance have an idiot for a kid, then I will yell at or slap the hand of my own child. Otherwise I'll use communication, based on reason and or emotion depending upon the situation and the child and their age and nature. A simple "NOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear and command should be enough to control most kids.

In addition - why would I be storing children and Draino in the same area?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   12:29:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: FormerLurker (#20)

Well there we go, your parents were horrible monsters so ALL parents must be horrible monsters. Get some help before you end up worse than them.

My parents were liberal "hippies" from Mass. Horrible monsters in some ways but they didn't hurt their kids (at least not physically speaking).

I never said ALL parents were horrible monsters. I was and am saying that the use of pain as a compliance technique is the method of monsters.

Is it okay to use electricity on a child? One can easily control the power so that it hurts no more and no less than a particular slap or spanking or belt.

Or how about making them kneel or maintain other painful physical positions?

And of course, using a large board to beat them is okay in many states, so you don't have any problem with that right?

You don't see any potential problem with authorizing parents to use pain and physical harm as a means of parenting with the only standard being that it can't result in any lasting physical damage? You don't see anything wrong with authorizing parents to abuse and torture their kids?

Situation 6. Everyday before dinner Momma spanks each child 25 times, for making her cook the dinner. Every single day until they are 18 or run away.

You are cool with that? After all, it's just "parental control" right?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   12:36:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Patriot Henry (#10)

If they don't respond to reason they are not old enough to be around dangers.

Look, Patriot Henry, you raise our kids as you see fit and I'll raise mine as I see fit. The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13....that's why those years are so difficult. Kids have this new cognitive ability but they have no applicable experience to apply to experiences.

Reason with a 2 year old? lol Spoken like a person who has never spent any time with 2 year olds.

Most of us have been spanked as a child and do not view our parents as child abusers for it. In fact, when a situation called for spanking......I always FINALLY learned my lesson.

Do you suggest that parents who have a wood stove in the house opt to freeze to death rather than keep the kiddie a room with the danger where it is warm? Children are in dangerous situations all the time--electrical outlets in the house, rocks outside. The idiocy of your commentary is astounding. Your solution is to REASON with them, even when 10 time-outs fails to get your point across.

Don't quit your day job to preach parenting techniques.....

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   12:53:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Patriot Henry (#23)

You don't see anything wrong with authorizing parents to abuse and torture their kids?

Situation 6. Everyday before dinner Momma spanks each child 25 times, for making her cook the dinner. Every single day until they are 18 or run away.

Gee, could up pump up the melodrama a bit more? Even your hypotheticals are ridiculous for a person who claims to have a firm grasp on reason.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   12:55:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: abraxas (#24)

Look, Patriot Henry, you raise our kids as you see fit and I'll raise mine as I see fit. The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13....that's why those years are so difficult. Kids have this new cognitive ability but they have no applicable experience to apply to experiences.

None of that is a good reason to allow parents to hurt their kids as they see fit, since most of those parents (despite being well over 12-13) do not have the capacity for reason.

You really think it's okay to use a board larger than a child to beat the child?

how about spanking 1 day olds for crying? That is permitted under the current laws. That's cool by you that people raise their kids like that?

Most of us have been spanked as a child and do not view our parents as child abusers for it. In fact, when a situation called for spanking......I always FINALLY learned my lesson.

Perhaps if we didn't stifle kids intellects they would be able to learn through more sophisticated means at a younger age.

Your solution is to REASON with them, even when 10 time-outs fails to get your point across.

There are many ways and many options. I do realize that most kids won't respond to reason as I did. While the use of moderate pain to prevent a harm is the result of the child and or parent being stupid, it is reasonable. However, it is not reasonable to allow parents to hurt their kids for any reason in any way so long as it doesn't break their bones or necessitate stitches or emergency surgery.

Don't quit your day job to preach parenting techniques.....

I won't - make sure you don't quit your day job to advocate parents hurting their kids "BECAUSE I SAID SO".

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:00:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: abraxas (#25)

Gee, could up pump up the melodrama a bit more? Even your hypotheticals are ridiculous for a person who claims to have a firm grasp on reason.

Many parents are stupid, insane, or otherwise incompetent and they create situations which are melodramatic and dramatic for no good reason.

The only thing y'all have done with the situations I have posited is to ignore them. You do the exact same thing with the real life equivalents. You ignore them. You remain ignorant and cover your ears and your eyes and pretend that the only use of pain compliance is moderate, reasonable, and judiciously executed by a caring loving parent.

Why do y'all have to ignore the real world applications of parental pain compliance? Is it because you actually hurt your kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner, or because your parents did that to you, or because you are so naive and innocent you just can't imagine how horrible and stupid other people are?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:06:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: FormerLurker (#21)

Again, your irrational thoughts based upon your own abusive parent's irrational actions leads you to equate a slap on the hand with a baseball bat across the back.

No, it's the fact that hitting kids with a board bigger than a baseball bat is permitted in Ohio for teachers even.

Why are you in denial about the reality of "spanking"/hurting kids?

I'm not equating those two things - but since you only acknowledge the slap on the hand situation while ignoring that the beating with a stick is not only permitted and practiced in some situations it is also paid for by taxbux - you sure seem to be.

The average home is FILLED with dangers, be it a stove, a stairwell, windows, and a zillion other things that lie in wait. Unless of course you think a child should be locked up in a padded room 24/7, or strapped into a chair from which he can't escape, the average child can and WILL find things that can pose a danger and cause him harm.

Yep. And they will either learn from the parent or from the danger. If they aren't smart enough to learn by reason or emotion from the parent, or figure out from the danger, then they ain't gonna connect the pain with the problem.

As far as outlets, that was an example, but forks are pretty easy to find, and outlet covers DO come off, and are especially easy to access if the child pulls out a lamp from a socket and decides to probe it with some metal object, whether it be a fork, a paper clip, or anything else he might be able to find.

And again, so the kid is a kid, so you hurt them? That makes sense - if you are a barbarian.

Perhaps you should just shut up and get yourself a vasectomy, never date women with kids, and that way you'll never have to worry about it.

Even if I have a child holding a fork next to an outlet I won't be worried about it, and I also won't be hurting the child. I most especially won't be using the full range of "parental control" that you so blindly defend without considering it's nature.

Situation 7. Child gets a C+ in math instead of all Bs as required by the parental unit. Parental unit retrieves the beating stick (no larger than permitted by govt statute) and then uses it to make the child feel a great deal of pain while suffering no lasting injuries.

Why should that be permitted? Why should parents be allowed to inflict pain on their kids only "BECAUSE I SAID SO"?

There are two good reasons. The parents are barbarians - or because they are training their kids to complacently accept whatever irrational rules and punishments the state imposes no matter how cruel stupid and insane they are.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: abraxas (#24)

The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13...

So says Piaget and other "experts". I disagree. I have not infrequently seen young children exercise superior abilities of reason, judgment, and discernment than adults 20-80+.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:11:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Patriot Henry (#27)

Many parents are stupid, insane, or otherwise incompetent and they create situations which are melodramatic and dramatic for no good reason.

And this you know from absolutely no personal experience?

Furthmore, you have no idea what I do or do not do in real life situations. Your entire premise is completely unsubstantiated. Don't tell me what I ignore or do not ignore. Speaking of ignorant of the facts......let me remind you that you have no parenting experience--nada, zip, zilch.

Where did you pull this "parental pain compliance" diatriabe from? Do you honestly believe that parents "hurt their kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner"? Really? Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage.

Please, for the good of the gene pool.......don't have children.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:17:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Patriot Henry (#29)

So says Piaget and other "experts". I disagree. I have not infrequently seen young children exercise superior abilities of reason, judgment, and discernment than adults 20-80+.

I'm quite certain that you have as much experience with middle schoolers as you have had parenting--nada, zip, zilch.

I think your experience with children in general has been even less than infrequent. And, your less than infrequent observasations really don't stand up to the work of theorists who spent their lives researching the matter or people what actually spend time parenting or teaching kids of all ages day in and day out.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#30)

And this you know from absolutely no personal experience?

I do know that from my own life. There is also ample statistical and scientific research documenting that many parents are idiots, madmen, fools, hypocrites, and otherwise unable to use pain in an appropriate manner for a parent, particularly under the incredibly broad powers awarded to them by the state.

Furthmore, you have no idea what I do or do not do in real life situations. Your entire premise is completely unsubstantiated.

My premise is substantiated. Many parents hurt their kids in ways that should be punished by time in a cage.

Where did you pull this "parental pain compliance" diatriabe from?

I was inspired by watching the knuckle draggers, the hooligans with younger hooligans, the fools, the idiots, etc.

Do you honestly believe that parents "hurt their kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner"? Really? Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage.

You are FUCKING WRONG. You really believe that EVERY SINGLE TIME a parent hits their kid it's for a good reason? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

If you were a kid you would be naive and it would be cute. At your age it's ignorance and it's fucking ugly.

Wake the fuck up - this ain't Mr. Rogers fucking neighborhood!

Please, for the good of the gene pool.......don't have children.

Right - the one person who has the intelligence and moral fiber not to assault the weak and defenseless shouldn't reproduce, but the masses of morons, psychos, and other incompetents should, as they are willing to hurt their own children because their idiocy, insanity, or foolishness says so.

What the fuck is your malfunction?

Maybe it's a guilty conscience from all the times you hurt your kids for no good reason or no reason at all? Maybe you remember them screaming, crying, perhaps bleeding and you have to justify that?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:27:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: abraxas (#31)

I'm quite certain that you have as much experience with middle schoolers as you have had parenting--nada, zip, zilch.

I was actually referring to kids as young as 4-5 years of age. They often can outthink people who have gotten PhDs, as they haven't gone through the process of being dumbed down, indoctrinated, and having their soul, curiosity, and imagination killed.

I think your experience with children in general has been even less than infrequent. And, your less than infrequent observasations really don't stand up to the work of theorists who spent their lives researching the matter or people what actually spend time parenting or teaching kids of all ages day in and day out.

That is the fallacy of authority. The "experts" are a bunch of statists- as are the teachers and almost all of the parents. Is it any surprise that those people who are subjected to being controlled by an arbitrary and capricious system run by the insane and the idiotic (and whom are often those very insane and idiotic enforcers of that system) happen to believe in the convenient neat simpleton theories that are conducive to insane and idiotic people controlling their kids by an arbitrary and capricious system?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:37:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Patriot Henry (#32)

You are FUCKING WRONG. You really believe that EVERY SINGLE TIME a parent hits their kid it's for a good reason? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

If you were a kid you would be naive and it would be cute. At your age it's ignorance and it's fucking ugly.

As a parent, and a friend of MANY other parents, I can state that in my experiences I have NEVER seen a parent slap a hand or spank a child for no good reason. NOT ONCE. Yes, I'm sure there are parents out there who abuse their power, like a liberal yelling at the top of their lungs cursing at others on the interneet.

Stop spitting on your monitor and get control of yourself. I can see how you would parent. Yell and curse at the kids while you play holier than thou. Yeah, that REALLY gets your point across......not.

When you can't muster up an intelligent commentary and your child refuses to reason are you going to say, "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MALFUNCTION?" Just call those who don't agree with you fucking morons......use that fuck adjective liberally because it's just so darn effective. (eyes rolling)

You are verbally assaulting on this thread, yet you want to wag your finger all around at people you do not know and have absolutely no knowledge about. Astounding really. What happened to reason?

I have no guilty conscience......lol. You're killin' me here with this liberal idiocy. Again, for the good of the gene pool and to keep the instances of verbal abuse against children down--don't have any kids.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Patriot Henry (#33)

First, thinking and REASONING aren't the same thing.

Yes, all the world is wrong and only Patriot Henry holds the torch of truth. Get a load of yourself......a pantload.

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

Rather than spewing insults at parents and spewing idiocy, why don't you get some therapy for the damage done by your hippie parents?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: abraxas (#34)

As a parent, and a friend of MANY other parents, I can state that in my experiences I have NEVER seen a parent slap a hand or spank a child for no good reason. NOT ONCE. Yes, I'm sure there are parents out there who abuse their power, like a liberal yelling at the top of their lungs cursing at others on the interneet.

And all you've seen is all there is to see? Nope.

Stop spitting on your monitor and get control of yourself. I can see how you would parent. Yell and curse at the kids while you play holier than thou. Yeah, that REALLY gets your point across......not.

Not much will get a point across to folks who have no problem with insane parents hurting their kids with a large board for absolutely no reason..or any of the other abuses that routinely happen by the means you defend.

When you can't muster up an intelligent commentary and your child refuses to reason are you going to say, "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MALFUNCTION?" Just call those who don't agree with you fucking morons......use that fuck adjective liberally because it's just so darn effective. (eyes rolling)

Reason won't work with you, now will it? Maybe I should come over there and smack you one. That will work right? That's the language you speak?

You are verbally assaulting on this thread, yet you want to wag your finger all around at people you do not know and have absolutely no knowledge about. Astounding really. What happened to reason?

I have enough knowledge about you to judge you - you are willing to blindly support the use of pain by parents without considering the actual range of natures of parents, kids, and pain compliance.

You are willing to defend child abuse. What good will reason do with the likes of you?

Also, I was hungry and my blood sugar dropped. I apologize for the profanity and shocking lack of manners.

I have no guilty conscience......lol. You're killin' me here with this liberal idiocy. Again, for the good of the gene pool and to keep the instances of verbal abuse against children down--don't have any kids.

Right, so I should not have kids lest I yell at them in an inappropriate manner, but it's okay for others to have kids and for them to hit/hurt their kids in an inappropriate manner?

Gotcha. Child abuse is fine so long as it's done with the fist, the belt, the boot, the elbow, the board. My mind is not swayed.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: abraxas (#35)

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

So the way to teach kids to be responsible for their actions is through pain?

I'm not a "liberal". My opposition to your barbaric parental practices doesn't mean I'm a "softie". You say I am one of those monsters - but they would say I am one of you because I defend the slapping of kids hands to keep the hands off the stove. My opposition to parents hurting their kids because they are unfit doesn't make me a "liberal".

Rather than spewing insults at parents and spewing idiocy, why don't you get some therapy for the damage done by your hippie parents?

What would you suggest, a dominatrix with a belt?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:59:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: abraxas (#35)

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

That is only part of the problem. The corresponding part is that the "conservatives" have kids and raise them to be rule following obeying compliant well trained service monkeys who love and defend the state, that monopoly on offensive force that imposes irrational rules and senseless standards upon others. The liberals support the welfare state. The conservatives support the warfare state. Their parenting styles reflect their statism. The correct way for adults and children is not "no rules" nor is it "arbitrary rules backed by force". While you are correct to oppose the former, you are wrong to support the latter - and by supporting parental pain compliance without qualifying a reasonable standard you support the worst creeps out there.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   14:07:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Patriot Henry (#36)

Reason won't work with you, now will it?

Right, so I should not have kids lest I yell at them in an inappropriate manner, but it's okay for others to have kids and for them to hit/hurt their kids in an inappropriate manner.

I have enough knowledge about you to judge you - you are willing to blindly support the use of pain by parents without considering the actual range of natures of parents, kids, and pain compliance.

I have yet to witness any reasoning from you. Try more use of fuck in your posts because that's real effective. Are you going to use the blood sugar excuse on your kids too? I think they will be as willing to except that excuse as I am.

I am for being accountable for my actions and I teach my children to be accountable for theirs. Parenting is about setting boundaries. A spanking isn't about an abuse of power it is about teaching a child that there are consequences for actions when time outs are not successful in teaching the lesson.

A reasoning person would actually be able to articulate the difference between slapping a kid on the hand or a swat on the butt and child abuse. A reasoning person would clearly be able to see that verbal abuse is actually just as destructive as spanking for no good reason. Yelling is simply an inability for a parent to control their emotions.......yes, I'm guilty of yelling at times and I honestly feel more guilt over that than following through on a spanking after time outs failed to deter the behaviour that required discipline.

I blindly support nothing. I actually have experience in this arena of using a range of behavior modifications with children, with positive results. You, on the other hand, have none.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:10:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Patriot Henry (#38)

you are wrong to support the latter - and by supporting parental pain compliance without qualifying a reasonable standard you support the worst creeps out there.

I have offered you a reasonable standard. I have also deliniated the creeps from the well-intentioned parents. You should do the same. I know, it's tough to admit that all parents do not fit into your utopian ideals that have yet to collide with the realities of parenting, but that is the first step toward reasoning in this discussion.

According to you, all parents are doing everything wrong and you are the sole voice of truth regarding the topic of parenting despite having no experience in this matter whatsoever. Admit it, you are woefully underqualified to judge parents and offer parenting tips.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:19:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

All your chirrun are belong to me!

For it is not the wolf or any of the other beasts that would join the contest in any noble danger, but rather a good man. — Aristotle, Politics, Book IIX

Turtle  posted on  2010-06-06   14:24:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: abraxas (#40)

Has anyone on this thread remarked on the coincidence of the belief spanking is bad for the child, and use of Ritalin as a replacement?

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   14:26:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Turtle (#41)

I saw this bumper sticker a couple of years ago.

My child beat the shit out of your child at school today.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   14:27:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Patriot Henry (#37)

So the way to teach kids to be responsible for their actions is through pain?

A kid will forget a spanking in an hour or two......but they will remember hateful words yelled at them for the rest of their lives.

Like I stated previously, a spanking is not about inflicting pain it is about teaching a child that there is a consequence for actions. I don't even necessarily advocate for it, but if a parent states that a spanking is the consequence, then follow through is crucial. Generally, a child who knows that the parent is serious, not just yelling again and again and again, about following through on disciple, then a kid will self correct prior to spanking.

On the other hand, if a parent has no follow through, then the child will continue to undermine the parental authority even when the child could hurt themselves or others by their actions. In almost all cases, a child that continues to misbehave without consequences ends up hurting themselves as others do not want to be around that child as the behaviour problems move from the home into the outer world. Worse, the child doesn't learn to be accountable for their actions. Believe it or not, children WANT and NEED boundaries.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:30:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Ragin1 (#43)

My child beat the shit out of your child at school today.

"My child is home-schooled and twice as smart as your honor student."

For it is not the wolf or any of the other beasts that would join the contest in any noble danger, but rather a good man. — Aristotle, Politics, Book IIX

Turtle  posted on  2010-06-06   14:32:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Ragin1 (#42)

Has anyone on this thread remarked on the coincidence of the belief spanking is bad for the child, and use of Ritalin as a replacement?

No, but I consider Ritalin replacement to be child abuse. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:32:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: abraxas (#46)

Ritalin replacement to be child abuse.

So do I. I think it inhibits the child's intellectual growth. I also think using a tv as a pacifier or babysitter to be child abuse. I don't believe spanking is child abuse. Spanking and beating are 2 different things entirely.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   14:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Ragin1 (#47)

I agree with your post in its entirety!!

No cable or even regular tv stations in my home. I have a few friends who actually think THAT is child abuse because my kids do not have the History Channel or Discovery, even after telling them you can pick up great educational documentaries at the library.

My kids never whine for items marketed to kids on tv. It's wonderful. I do not want their preferences determined by commercials. Plus, they love to read and listen to music. Occassionally, they watch a DVD for a treat.

It always amazes me how people refuse to admit a TV addiction. If a person drinks for six hours a day, that's an alcoholic, but a person who parks in front of the tube for six hours a day sees no problem and just can't seem to figure out why obesity is on the rise.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:45:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: abraxas (#39)

I have yet to witness any reasoning from you. Try more use of fuck in your posts because that's real effective. Are you going to use the blood sugar excuse on your kids too? I think they will be as willing to except that excuse as I am.

Well, if they don't accept that I can just hurt them until they do, right?

A spanking isn't about an abuse of power it is about teaching a child that there are consequences for actions when time outs are not successful in teaching the lesson.

It is an abuse of power. The lesson is "Might makes right".

I blindly support nothing. I actually have experience in this arena of using a range of behavior modifications with children, with positive results. You, on the other hand, have none.

I've watched kids before. Never hit one, never needed to. With the sole exception of immediate danger I've also never seen or heard of a situation where it was necessary.

In addition, there are quite a few non"liberal" folks who manage to raise kids without hurting them. There is no evidence that it is a necessary tool for parenting. There is ample evidence it lends itself to abuse. It really is a tool of primates and primitives, and of course their sophisticated cousins the psychologists, psychiatrists, and statists who treat human beings as Pavlov treated his dogs.

If I have children, I plan to raise them to be civilized human beings. If I change my mind and decide to raise them as I would raise an animal in a behavioral science experiment, I will be using some of your techniques.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:28:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: abraxas (#40)

I have offered you a reasonable standard.

I might have missed the first time. I might have missed it the second time. I just don't see it. Where is this "reasonable standard"? I did see you post this "Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage. " in which you defend parental pain compliance as never being without a good reason and never being barbaric or savage - an awful broad defense of child abuse.

I know, it's tough to admit that all parents do not fit into your utopian ideals that have yet to collide with the realities of parenting, but that is the first step toward reasoning in this discussion.

I'm not a utopian idealist. That's why I would favor allowing some child abuse. People are stupid and insane and they are going to raise their kids in stupid and insane ways. There should be a line distinguishing between those who are moderately so who go beyond that which is wrong but tolerable.

According to you, all parents are doing everything wrong and you are the sole voice of truth regarding the topic of parenting despite having no experience in this matter whatsoever. Admit it, you are woefully underqualified to judge parents and offer parenting tips.

No, according to me the state gives an incredible power to all parents many of whom abuse it - and you and almost all other defenders of child abuse refuse to acknowledge this symbiotic relationship between the state and child abusers merely because you happen to benefit from the lack of state restrictions on your judgment. Kind of like an adult speed head who gets a prescription for speed for "ADHD" and who has no problems with kids being given speed by the state or their parents via the doctors.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:38:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Patriot Henry (#49)

It is an abuse of power. The lesson is "Might makes right".

I've watched kids before. Never hit one, never needed to. With the sole exception of immediate danger I've also never seen or heard of a situation where it was necessary.

No, it isn't. It's about making choices and facing consequences for the choices one makes. Often, it IS to keep them away from dangers, as examples have clearly articulated on this thread.

Again, I don't view a slap on the hand or a spanking as hurting kids. Hurting them is providing no boundaries and allowing the go through life without understanding the simple lesson that there are consequences for one's actions.

Okay, you provide this "ample evidence" that spanking leads to abuse. Frankly, I think you are attempting to blow smoke up my butt.

My children are wonderfully civilized. Amazing, considering I'm such an abusive barbarian. lol

Oh please, watching kids isn't parenting, Patriot Henry. And you don't see any problem with using obsenities to make your point and calling others names. Behaviours I will not tolerate in my kids. I suppose you think that washing a mouth out with soap is abuse too........to bad your folks didn't try that with you, I've heard other parents claim positive results with that method.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   15:40:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Ragin1, abraxas (#42)

Has anyone on this thread remarked on the coincidence of the belief spanking is bad for the child, and use of Ritalin as a replacement?

It makes perfect sense to replace pain compliance/torture with drugs. Both are barbaric behavior modifications favored by sociopaths who like to treat people like animals.

My parents put my older brother on Ritalin. They had tried spanking first. It failed to control his behavior because he quickly seized control of the situation by forcing them to spank him. Neither method will work on any reasonably intelligent person except by destroying them in part or in whole.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:42:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Patriot Henry (#49)

If I have children, I plan to raise them to be civilized human beings. If I change my mind and decide to raise them as I would raise an animal in a behavioral science experiment,

Sincerely it will be you who raises the child in a behavioral science experiment.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   15:42:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Patriot Henry (#52)

It makes perfect sense to replace pain compliance/torture with drugs.

Of course it does when you are perfectly willing to put your own child into a behavioral science experiment.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   15:45:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Patriot Henry (#50)

There should be a line distinguishing between those who are moderately so who go beyond that which is wrong but tolerable.

There are TONS of lines in every state. Go read your state statutes.

Yeah, that's really solved the problems hasn't it. More laws will fix it all, Nanny stater. Why, the state has done so good with dispensing speed to kiddies as you point out that they surely should have more clear laws on child abuse. Actually, they already do, but nanny staters rarely read what is already on the books regarding any issue, even if they know next to nothing about it and DEMAND more laws as a fix. Eyes rolling.

Are you going to weigh in on tv as a babysitter being child abuse?

How about YELLING and verbal abuse, no comment on that?

How about we put a cop in every home?

Oh, and are YOU going to pay for that?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   15:46:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Patriot Henry (#52)

My parents put my older brother on Ritalin. They had tried spanking first. It failed to control his behavior because he quickly seized control of the situation by forcing them to spank him. Neither method will work on any reasonably intelligent person except by destroying them in part or in whole

This explains SO much. Your parents tried spanking after they had already shown your brother THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES. Gee, I can't figure out why THAT method didn't work.

I would argue that the method failed because your parents WEREN'T CONSISTENT, opting to treat the kid like a ping pong ball in a behavior modification experiment. How old was the boy when they opted to actually do something? Next stop Ritalin. I imagine you and your brother ate crap processed foods and spent more time with the tv than your parents too.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   15:52:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: abraxas (#44)

A kid will forget a spanking in an hour or two......but they will remember hateful words yelled at them for the rest of their lives.

That explains all of the people who talk about the times Papa would break out the belt, or Mama with the spoon, etc etc etc. They may or may not support it, but they almost always have that same sad submissive look on their faces.

Like I stated previously, a spanking is not about inflicting pain it is about teaching a child that there is a consequence for actions.

I'm familiar with Pavlovian conditioning. When inflicting pain is the means for teaching - it is an essential and defining part of the lesson. The lesson you are teaching is "If you don't obey authority figures they will hurt you". Great lesson you teach your kids.

On the other hand, if a parent has no follow through, then the child will continue to undermine the parental authority even when the child could hurt themselves or others by their actions.

Only if that child is stupid, insane, or a bad person. Kids can listen to reason at a very young age. They aren't that stupid, insane, or bad. Teaching them to do the right thing is much more effective at raising good people than is teaching them to obey.

In almost all cases, a child that continues to misbehave without consequences ends up hurting themselves as others do not want to be around that child as the behaviour problems move from the home into the outer world.

There are many other consequences available to a parent other than pain. A pattern of misbehaving is a reflection of either poor character (can't do nothing about that) or a failure of the parents to impose a rational system of rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior predicated upon reason and the education and explanation of reason and the system and the rules.

Worse, the child doesn't learn to be accountable for their actions. Believe it or not, children WANT and NEED boundaries.

Boundaries are good and fine. So is holding kids and people accountable for their actions. Why don't kids want to be accountable for their actions? Perhaps it's because rather than suffering the consequences of their actions they will be forcibly restrained by a stronger human being who will then torture them into submission. Ever think about that?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:53:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Patriot Henry (#57)

Only if that child is stupid, insane, or a bad person. Kids can listen to reason at a very young age.

a stronger human being who will then torture them into submission.

So, is that your stellar analysis for your brother? Did he listen to reason? No. Why not? Was it supid or insane or simply that he's a bad person?

A patten of misbehavior is a child who wants boundaries. Simple as that. Kids do want to be held accountable for their actions and they need to know when their actions are not acceptable--hence the repeat of the behavior until the lesson is learned.

Torture them.....lol. You're drowning me in melodramatics here.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:02:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Patriot Henry (#57)

Patriot Henry, on this topic you are so overwhelmed you are contradicting your own arguments. Re-read your last arguments please, and really think about it.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   16:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: abraxas (#51)

Again, I don't view a slap on the hand or a spanking as hurting kids. Hurting them is providing no boundaries and allowing the go through life without understanding the simple lesson that there are consequences for one's actions.

And so frequently hitting them for no good reason isn't hurting them? Sure. Right. Hitting your kids because you had a bad day at work doesn't hurt them. Yep. That's a perfectly valid reason. Oh wait, that never happens because you don't see it in your little part of the world?

My children are wonderfully civilized. Amazing, considering I'm such an abusive barbarian.

Do they believe it is proper for a large man to hit a little kid? If so they ain't so civilized.

And you don't see any problem with using obsenities to make your point and calling others names.

I do. I just don't give a damn if I'm rude to people who hit children. I ain't saying it's right to be rude, because it ain't.

Behaviours I will not tolerate in my kids.

But you won't say a word when they treat a toddler in a way that would land them in jail if it wasn't their kid?

I suppose you think that washing a mouth out with soap is abuse too........to bad your folks didn't try that with you, I've heard other parents claim positive results with that method.

Yes, that is abuse. It's physical torture. It's barbaric. It's stupid. It's insane. How about a live wire on the tongue? That's perfectly fine "parental control" eh?

Why would my parents have needed to treat me like a piece of dirty laundry?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   16:05:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Patriot Henry (#57)

That explains all of the people who talk about the times Papa would break out the belt, or Mama with the spoon, etc etc etc. They may or may not support it, but they almost always have that same sad submissive look on their faces.

These are people who suffer victim mentality. It's always somebody else's fault that they are screwed up in some way. Must be mommy and daddy to blame, even when they are 45 and standing in the welfare line, knocking on mommy and daddy's door to take them in again.

When mommy and daddy finally learn the value of actually saying no to their little darlings, then mommy and daddy are the mean ebil villians who are the root of all their problems.

Even recently this daddy hit me excuse was used to justify cheating on a spouse multiple times.........I suppose you bought that idiocy hook, line and stinker.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:06:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: abraxas (#55)

There are TONS of lines in every state. Go read your state statutes.

I have read some statutes from some states. Often they permit child abuse. I for one think torture is child abuse. Opinions vary.

" Yeah, that's really solved the problems hasn't it. More laws will fix it all, Nanny stater. Why, the state has done so good with dispensing speed to kiddies as you point out that they surely should have more clear laws on child abuse. Actually, they already do, but nanny staters rarely read what is already on the books regarding any issue, even if they know next to nothing about it and DEMAND more laws as a fix. Eyes rolling. "

I would not expect the state to do it. Fewer laws and simpler ones at that would be preferable to more laws.

Are you going to weigh in on tv as a babysitter being child abuse?

It is child abuse. Absolutely. It is not criminal though. Assault is a crime. Poor decision making is not.

How about YELLING and verbal abuse, no comment on that?

Also abuse, but again not criminal.

How about we put a cop in every home?

Oh, and are YOU going to pay for that?

No and no.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   16:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Patriot Henry (#60) (Edited)

And so frequently hitting them for no good reason isn't hurting them?

Do they believe it is proper for a large man to hit a little kid? If so they ain't so civilized.

But you won't say a word when they treat a toddler in a way that would land them in jail if it wasn't their kid?

Why would my parents have needed to treat me like a piece of dirty laundry?

Who is "freguently hitting them for no good reason"? Who is hitting them over a bad day at work?

I'm not a large man. In fact, I'm completely lacking in the testical department. And, like I stated before, my kids are wonderfully civilized. In fact, I often am complemented on how well behaved and what good manners my children have.

Who are "they" and what is the infraction? No, I won't send parents to jail for slapping a kid on the hand or spanking them, not even for washing their mouths out with soap.

Perhaps, it would help you communicate without the overuse of the word fuck.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:13:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: abraxas (#56)

This explains SO much. Your parents tried spanking after they had already shown your brother THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES. Gee, I can't figure out why THAT method didn't work.

No, they showed him that there were boundaries. The boundaries though were arbitrary, irrational, pointless, and not communicated to him.

I would argue that the method failed because your parents WEREN'T CONSISTENT, opting to treat the kid like a ping pong ball in a behavior modification experiment.

Consistency would make the method work, but since the method is appropriate to training a dog, I question the validity of applying that method to a human being.

How old was the boy when they opted to actually do something?

I think he might have been 2 or so when they first started to hit him as prescribed by society. After that failed for 7 or so years that's when they switched to the drugs.

Next stop Ritalin. I imagine you and your brother ate crap processed foods and spent more time with the tv than your parents too.

Wrong and wrong. No processed foods and only educational television.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   16:15:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Patriot Henry (#62)

I have read some statutes from some states. Often they permit child abuse. I for one think torture is child abuse. Opinions vary.

I would not expect the state to do it. Fewer laws and simpler ones at that would be preferable to more laws.

So basically, the laws should be rewritten according to your personal definitions and beliefs. Yeah, that's a solution.

So, who would do it? You?

Where's the reasoning in your position?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:15:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Patriot Henry (#62)

You have every right to have your opine on the definition of abuse. But you conveniently argue abuse scenes while refuting the spanking topic.

Submission leads to acceptance.

If they don’t obey the authority they will be hurt. By gun or by prison. They need to learn to accept authority.

Until they have learned they need to blindly obey.

It is you who advocate no responsibility to their actions.

I agree with you on one point. Teaching how to do things right prior to the event of repercussions is much more effective.

You certainly are confusing child abuse with spanking. Neither of us are advocating releasing a bad day.

Hurting another child intentionally is one area I would and have spanked my child for. Sorry. It worked.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   16:17:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Patriot Henry (#64)

The boundaries though were arbitrary, irrational, pointless, and not communicated to him.

Consistency would make the method work, but since the method is appropriate to training a dog, I question the validity of applying that method to a human being.

Precisely why the child continued to misbehave.

Works for many children in many homes all over the world. The problem in your household was not the child, it was poor parenting skills all the way around, but that is no reason for you to jump in and dictate proper parenting to all others. Projecting your own parents' failures isn't a solution to what you deem is a problem.

So, he was nine when he went on Ritalin. Poor kid.

Frankly, I've never spanked my dog. Your continual reference to dog training in tandem with parenting doesn't really work.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:22:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: abraxas (#63)

Who is "freguently hitting them for no good reason"? Who is hitting them over a bad day at work?

I would guess roughly 1 to 3 percent of parents. Maybe less, probably not too much more. There are so many ways to abuse your kids these days that the old fashioned one of beating them is mostly out of style.

I'm not a large man. In fact, I'm completely lacking in the testical department. And, like I stated before, my kids are wonderfully civilized. In fact, I often am complemented on how well behaved and what good manners my children have.

If your kids are willing to hurt a small child because they don't know what else to do - I really don't think they are "wonderfully civilized". You might not be very big - but I bet you are relative to a 2 year old.

Who are "they" and what is the infraction? No, I won't send parents to jail for slapping a kid on the hand or spanking them, not even for washing their mouths out with soap.

How about routinely spanking kids for irrational reasons?

Perhaps, it would help you communicate with overuse of the word fuck.

I didn't curse as a child. If I had, torture would only made me hate senseless authority even more than I do now.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   16:26:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: abraxas (#67)

So, he was nine when he went on Ritalin. Poor kid.

You sure have that right. Right now these drug controlled babies are beginning leadership positions in our society. Now that they have been robbed of their childhood it's hard to imagine the vengeance they will take.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   16:26:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Patriot Henry (#68) (Edited)

If your kids are willing to hurt a small child because they don't know what else to do - I really don't think they are "wonderfully civilized". You might not be very big - but I bet you are relative to a 2 year old.

How about routinely spanking kids for irrational reasons?

I would guess roughly 1 to 3 percent of parents.

What? Kids pick on other kids.......it's the nature of kids. And the responsibility of parents to teach them how to behave and to be civilized.

I don't care what you think of my children, really. Get back to me when you have some parenting experience to contribute.

What are these "irrational reasons" you speak of? I recall my dad spanking me for riding on my horse chasing this cow that used to charge people. I deserved it and I never treated a cow like that again. How can you spin that into abuse?

That's your guess, eh? Why berate those of us who aren't anywhere near your best guess?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:39:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Ragin1 (#69)

Now that they have been robbed of their childhood it's hard to imagine the vengeance they will take.

It's scary and the numbers are increasing. Now big pharma is pushing medications on pregnant women. Millions of kids medicated. IMHO, part of the problem is that they see their parents pop pills all of their lives, so they think this is normal. Parents turn to pills so they think it's okay to have their children turn to pills. It's sickening. Sigh.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:42:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: abraxas, Ragin1, all (#48) (Edited)

I agree with your post in its entirety!!

No cable or even regular tv stations in my home. I have a few friends who actually think THAT is child abuse because my kids do not have the History Channel or Discovery, even after telling them you can pick up great educational documentaries at the library.

My kids never whine for items marketed to kids on tv. It's wonderful. I do not want their preferences determined by commercials. Plus, they love to read and listen to music. Occassionally, they watch a DVD for a treat.

It always amazes me how people refuse to admit a TV addiction. If a person drinks for six hours a day, that's an alcoholic, but a person who parks in front of the tube for six hours a day sees no problem and just can't seem to figure out why obesity is on the rise.

An eye-opening post in a long series of well-reasoned and well-intentioned posts in this thread. Thanks for your effort!

Your patient reasoning, with a poster whose very self-expression reads as like a poster-child for the fruits of nanny-state indoctrination, itself displays all the characteristics of a good parent. Not to mention the wit and snap of authority that made it worth following this thread documenting yet another ego-surfing problem poster!

Since this poster displays some of the brain damage characteristic of exposure to Ritalin, the adult antidepressants and the mediaMatrix, it makes me sad for all the children of neglect: They had TV as baby-sitter, poor food, material bribes but not enough of the most important of all: parental attention and *guidance*, those caring enough to defy the herd of the cult and consistently apply consequences to unreasoning actions.

No boundaries? No growth. Harsh, emotionally charged words? No differentiation between those who love them and those who are disinterested servants of the State

A minor detail: age 7 was traditionally considered to be the age of reason in child development. A generality of course, dependent upon many factors. The punishment/reward system could then be shifted from the physical to the abstract, such as cookies, outside play time, friends over, etc. If you do this, you will lose that. If you do this, you will gain that

The bottom line is responsibility and accountability.

The parents take responsibility and demand accountability from their children or, if they are among the brainwashed worshippers in the "progressive" religion of the State, they let themselves off with easy pre-formulated rationalizations infused into their programming from too much mediaMatrix exposure, and produce unhappy egoists, ready to trade freedom for entitlements, for life.

the cult encourages the sleeping to make more fodder for the cult... (Shiver)

I had parenting (including corporal punishment up to age 6) that was so good I feel that I have yet to live up to the level of their gift but I did apply what I learned from them in my own parenting, with good results (say the kids themselves!)

It is always refreshing to read posts from the true heroes of any country: the good parents!


Anger? as a first reaction to get your a$$ moving, once you see through the Media Matrix and set yourself free from your lifelong mind control collar. Sustainable? not enough to screen your intention to be free from the Talosians, who can’t read primitive emotions but know what you watch on cable/sat, read on the Internet and eat. Our ultimate weapon is laughter and amused detachment at the folly of the would-be emperors. Fear mongers HATE it when the FEAR card doesn’t work. The humiliation of being seen as merely a naked ape is THEIR big fear. Laugh the bastards off the stage! Tell your friends that we can build a real civilization from the ruins of the totalitarian game!

HighLairEon  posted on  2010-06-06   17:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

i cry fou on this article number one because marybeth decries government intrusion as by only the obama administration, and characterizes this as only a looming un threat instead of an already long existing tyranny in practice by the USSA for decades or longer. she doesnt mention child services. 'The UN/obama threat', as if bush didnt push it also? thus minimizing thr real problem as a partisan one. also, Mexico, according to this article is a signatory to this treaty, but they allow homeschooling and private school, in contrast to what she claimed it would do.

"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-06-06   17:01:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Artisan (#73)

i cry fou on this article number one because marybeth decries government intrusion as by only the obama administration,

If anyone noticed, most of the things the Obama administration has done are just continuances of the 5 prior administrations. It's like a snowball rolling down a 35 year long grade.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   17:09:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: HighLairEon (#72)

Most excellent post HairLairEon. And thank you for your kind words. : ) The bottom line IS accountability and responsibility.

Yes, I think you are correct. Reasoning begins at the ealier phase while direct questioning of authority begins in the tumultuous adolescent years. Good call on that. If the parenting job is done well, those adolescent years should be less tumultuous for both the parent and the child. Personally, I never experienced any terrible twos at all--no tantrums, no fits. I'm hoping I will be so luck when my girls hit middle school. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   17:20:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: abraxas, (#65)

So basically, the laws should be rewritten according to your personal definitions and beliefs. Yeah, that's a solution.

No, the laws should be written in accordance with the principles of the law and liberty.

That is a solution.

Parents are care takers. Hurting a person is not taking care of them EXCEPT IN A DEFENSIVE SITUATION. (and that there is why I ain't no stinkin "liberal").

Where's the reasoning in your position?

People have a right not to suffer physical pain at the hands of others. It's part of the right of life. Those people who are incapable of caring for themselves must be put into the care of others, but this does not disable their right not to be in physical pain because of others. Those who have custody of others do not have the right or power to impose pain on those in their custody. No one has that right or power. It is wrong to hurt others except for defense.

This applies to children, the retarded, those in a coma, the senile, the insane, prisoners, etc. Throughout history those who have had custody of other people have traditionally violated the right to physical safety. What you folks call "spanking" is a politically correct, white washed, watered down, softie version of the real deal. The fact that it is a weak facsimile of child abuse doesn't make it right or acceptable or moral or necessary. It is a fundamental violation of our natural God given rights to be hurt by another. Hurting a person in ones custody is a fundamental violation of the duties and responsibilities of a person who has chosen to undertake that role. That is why corporal punishment is always wrong and doubly so - it is a violation of the victims rights AND it is a violation of the duties and responsibilities of the CUSTODIAN.

I apologize for the all caps there (and again for my earlier posts) - but I wanted to emphasize that parents are custodians. They have duties, responsibilities, powers, etc. They do not own the child, the child does not belong to them as personal or private property would. They have a natural standard of how to take care of the child. A good starting point to define that standard would be the Golden Rule and a series of thoughts about it with relation to this issue.

"Treat others as you wish to be treated" is one way people put it. The reason why parents have custody of kids is because the kids can't even treat themselves as they wish to be treated let alone others. They step into the natural role of the child and fulfill it's functions until it is able to so, and they play a critical role in helping the child learn to fulfill it's functions. Those functions, as an adult who can treat oneself as one wishes and who can treat others in the same manner, generally do not include the use of physical pain as a disciplinary method. I've studied self-discipline for some time and am no expert - but I've never ever heard anyone suggest that it makes sense for adults to hit or strike themselves, or to wash out their mouths with soap. Now, people do do these things, but they are generally recognized as freaks and they usually self identify as such.

Now this might all seem very bizarre and irrelevant to you - but my point is that as a firm, steady, reliable, and true rule - civilized adult human beings do not use physical force to discipline themselves. As a general rule, they do not do so with other people either, the exceptions being largely when the state does so. Even most of the states/governments in the world do not use striking blows to cause pain even for punishing criminals. It is not accepted anymore to hit retarded people, or the insane, or the senile. There is still quite a bit of exceptions to the rule, but as a rule the use of offensive force is considered to be wrong with most of the exceptions being the enormous hypocrisy of the state.

Humanity has made much progress in some ways in becoming civilized. The growing disapproval of offensive force is important - one example of this disapproval is the standard that says it is wrong to use offensive force against those in your custody.

That's the reasoning in my position - It is fundamentally wrong to use corporal punishment on children because it is a violation of their rights and it is a violation of ones parental duty to safeguard and protect their rights.

I wouldn't favor prohibiting all physical force. I would be okay of course with defensive force, and I would even favor reasonable regulations for corporeal punishment, including that the punishment must be for a violation of a rule and that the rule and the violation and the punishment must be explained to the child. While I think your abuse of your kids is wrong, I don't think it should be illegal if sufficiently moderate. I would favor using social pressure - such as pointing out what you are doing is shockingly brutal, savage, barbaric and reminding you that corporal punishment is only the tiniest morsel of evil really means you should remember it's the first bite that really dooms you even if it's not nearly enough to kill you.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   17:23:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Patriot Henry (#76)

and I would even favor reasonable regulations for corporeal punishment, including that the punishment must be for a violation of a rule and that the rule and the violation and the punishment must be explained to the child.

And there you have it folks. Patriot Henry agrees. Spanking is good as long as the state can oversee.

Your pathetic and you have a whole lot to learn before you rear a child. Period.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   17:27:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Ragin1, all, Patriot Henry (#77)

I would even favor reasonable regulations

I noticed that word "reasonable" when it comes to regulating things that are none of the states business.

Think "reasonable" firearms / ammo regulations. Same wording from the same kind of people. That word "reasonable" is used intentionally to imply that those that disagree with the libtards idiocy are being unreasonable.

Spanking is not abuse. Tards like him equate it with the genuine abuse that does occur. It's guilt by association.

Henry, you blew your cover, you motherfucker.

.


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Live free or die kill ~~ Me
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PSUSA  posted on  2010-06-06   17:45:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: abraxas (#70)

I don't care what you think of my children, really. Get back to me when you have some parenting experience to contribute.

That's a convenient way to dismiss me and my arguments. Experience does not substitute for principles.

What are these "irrational reasons" you speak of? I recall my dad spanking me for riding on my horse chasing this cow that used to charge people. I deserved it and I never treated a cow like that again. How can you spin that into abuse?

If you made a similar stupid mistake today would you spank yourself or get someone else to hit you?

It's not spinning that into abuse. When your father treated you like a out of line dog that was abuse. It wasn't the only option, that wasn't the best option, and if you ever saw an adult taking that option with themselves or someone else you likely not approve.

That's your guess, eh? Why berate those of us who aren't anywhere near your best guess?

I berate you for what you have done, which is only a moderated form of those who go to a worse level of abuse. You might condemn the actions of others who beat their children more severely, but you condone the principle (or lack thereof).

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   17:45:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Patriot Henry (#76)

People have a right not to suffer physical pain at the hands of others. It's part of the right of life.

What you folks call "spanking" is a politically correct, white washed, watered down, softie version of the real deal.

While I think your abuse of your kids is wrong, I don't think it should be illegal if sufficiently moderate. I would favor using social pressure - such as pointing out what you are doing is shockingly brutal, savage, barbaric and reminding you that corporal punishment is only the tiniest morsel of evil really means you should remember it's the first bite that really dooms you even if it's not nearly enough to kill you.

but I wanted to emphasize that parents are custodians

Having actually gone through the pain of bringing life into this world, I find your "right not to suffer physical pain" comical.

In your world, Patriot Henry. You have a right to your opinion. But, no matter how you spin it, I'm not going to see it your way. In you mind, my father was a child abuser for whipping my butt with a belt when I deserved it.

I do believe that having provided food, shelter, love, affection and discipline to real children, that I have a better idea of what it means to be a custodian than you do. A custodian is more than the chief diaper changer and more than the head chef. It is my duty and my responsibility to teach my children to be responsible and accountable for their actions.

We live by the golden rule around here too. So, you are saying that when my eight year old smacks my six year old, I should solve the problem by punching her. No thanks. A time out and then a spanking if a change of behavior isn't forthcoming is more rational and effective.

Like I said the natural role of a child is to NEED and WANT boundaries, to learn through trial and error that actions DO have consequences.

I never have and never will abuse my children. You are being an out right liar for stating that. It's rather dispicapable.

Oh but wait, let me pack my bags for your pre-planned guilt trip. All Aboard!! Your social pressure is plastic--like a Nixon halloween mask. Corporal punishment can only be evil if the the person delivers it with malice and ill- intent. Spanking are given to redirect, never with malice. Frankly, I have a rule to never spank when I'm mad and I always discuss the progression of behavior leading to the consequence with my kids.

Weren't you going to tell me how my dad was abusive for spanking me? How he was shockingly brutal, savage, and barbaric? Wow, I guess we are just terrible, evil, aweful people........doomed for sure.

More melodrama please. I just can't seem to get enough and it's such an effecitive way to present your case, with an equally ineffective guilt trip on top.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   17:46:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Patriot Henry (#79)

That's a convenient way to dismiss me and my arguments. Experience does not substitute for principles.

that wasn't the best option, and if you ever saw an adult taking that option with themselves or someone else you likely not approve.

Considering that you have neither, I don't see where you get off dictating either to me. Your only argument is that you do not believe my children are civilized. A matter of which you know nothing about.

Obviously it WAS the best action because I NEVER did that again. : ) Of course, don't let that get in the way of the melodramatic fiction of abuse raging in your head.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if another adult gave you a spanking. Perhaps making up for a few that would have been beneficial in your childhood.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   17:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Ragin1 (#77)

And there you have it folks. Patriot Henry agrees. Spanking is good as long as the state can oversee.

Aas I am anti-statist who favors the permanent dissolution and prohibition of the state that really makes no sense. I stated nothing of the kind.

Your pathetic and you have a whole lot to learn before you rear a child. Period.

I most likely will not have children before I am 40 if I can help it as I wish to be well prepared. I highly doubt that in the next decade or so that I will discover the joys and wonders of using coercive acts of violence that use pain as a means of negative association in a Pavlovian behavioral science program designed to reduce them to the level of a well trained animal rather than developing them up to the level of a civilized human being. I might be wrong...but I doubt it.

If I do have kids, I plan on raising them to defend themselves from anyone who raises a hand or fist or weapon against them. If I ever were to try to spank my kid I would be overjoyed if they were to put me down on the ground in defense of themselves. Two wrongs don't make a right. Discipline does not come from using pain as a punishment - at least not for human beings. It comes from self-restraint and self-determination. The exercise of offensive violent force by other parties does not effectively teach those properties.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   17:56:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Patriot Henry (#82)

I ever were to try to spank my kid I would be overjoyed if they were to put me down on the ground in defense of themselves.

More than likely, if you ever tell Jr. that he can't hit his mom or his little sister, he'll kick your ass.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:04:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Patriot Henry (#28)

No, it's the fact that hitting kids with a board bigger than a baseball bat is permitted in Ohio for teachers even.

Huh huh. Come back with some links from the state of Ohio that explains that law, and then perhaps I'll believe you.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Patriot Henry (#23)

Is it okay to use electricity on a child? One can easily control the power so that it hurts no more and no less than a particular slap or spanking or belt.

Or how about making them kneel or maintain other painful physical positions?

And of course, using a large board to beat them is okay in many states, so you don't have any problem with that right?

You equate a slap on the hand with electro shock, and a slight slap on the bum with stress positions and whacking them over the head with a wooden board.

Did your parents control you with some sort of psychiatric drug, such as Ritalin perhaps? Something damaged your brain, that's for sure...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:10:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Patriot Henry (#23)

Situation 6. Everyday before dinner Momma spanks each child 25 times, for making her cook the dinner. Every single day until they are 18 or run away.

Do you fantasize about this stuff?

You are either coming up with this shit in a masturbatory fantasy, trying to get a "rise" out of people here, or you truly are one twisted fuck.

Again, you equate normal parental discipline involving a slap on the bum when absolutely needed with wanton psychotic abuse inflicted for fun.

Get some help.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:13:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Artisan (#73)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-06-06   18:17:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: abraxas (#80)

Having actually gone through the pain of bringing life into this world, I find your "right not to suffer physical pain" comical.

In your world, Patriot Henry. You have a right to your opinion. But, no matter how you spin it, I'm not going to see it your way. In you mind, my father was a child abuser for whipping my butt with a belt when I deserved it.

Kids don't deserve to be hit. "Liberals" are right about that one. Kids most certainly do deserve punishment - "conservatives" are right about that one.

As a rule no one deserves to be hit. The exceptions, the sole exceptions, the only exceptions are those people who get hit in defense.

It is not only in my mind that this is wrong - it is in the action itself.

Like I said the natural role of a child is to NEED and WANT boundaries, to learn through trial and error that actions DO have consequences.

The relative mildness of your "consequences" compared to those who use a heavier hand when they beat their kids does not excuse or justify the actions.

I do believe that having provided food, shelter, love, affection and discipline to real children, that I have a better idea of what it means to be a custodian than you do. A custodian is more than the chief diaper changer and more than the head chef. It is my duty and my responsibility to teach my children to be responsible and accountable for their actions.

All you have done is raised your kids according to tradition. You are the victim of a victim of a victim etc etc etc. It's an age old tradition to either "beat sense into your kids" or "beat your kids senseless" - but it's the same tradition. You failed in the same way others have always failed. There is no sound principle behind what you say. The responsibilities of a parent do not justify their using pain to obtain compliance. That's a terrible excuse for hitting your kids.

I never have and never will abuse my children. You are being an out right liar for stating that. It's rather dispicapable.

I said it based on principle. I stand by it.

I recognize the honorable intent, the moderation, the purposefulness, the effect, but I also recognize the principle, the action, and the unintended consequences.

Oh but wait, let me pack my bags for your pre-planned guilt trip. All Aboard!! Your social pressure is plastic--like a Nixon halloween mask. Corporal punishment can only be evil if the the person delivers it with malice and ill- intent. Spanking are given to redirect, never with malice. Frankly, I have a rule to never spank when I'm mad and I always discuss the progression of behavior leading to the consequence with my kids.

I've had this argument before with other people. They said the same thing. Malice is not necessary for evil. Nor is ill-intent. An evil action does not need to be caused by an evil thought or an evil feeling or an evil person. A good person with good feelings and good thoughts doing an evil thing might make it into the politically correct form of spanking you endorse, but it's still evil. The offensive use of violent force is wrong. Using violent offensive force as punishment is wrong. It's a fundamental violation of maintaining custody. It is a transgression onto the grounds that only God if anyone/anything is fit to walk on.

You can't do the wrong thing the right way. It is the wrong way. It can never be the right way.

Weren't you going to tell me how my dad was abusive for spanking me? How he was shockingly brutal, savage, and barbaric? Wow, I guess we are just terrible, evil, aweful people........doomed for sure.

Human beings are pretty dang backwards. Injustice is an institution.

More melodrama please. I just can't seem to get enough and it's such an effecitive way to present your case, with an equally ineffective guilt trip on top.

Guilt only works for those who have a conscience. It is possible to lose only part of your conscience. Those who favor hitting kids are at least partly morally blind. You can't feel guilty about something you can not see or understand. So long as you feel right in your actions you won't feel any guilt. As far as melodrama - this is part of the reason why the world is so messed up. It's not the biggest or most important part, not by a long shot, but it's still part of why we are still living in the Dark Ages.

I just can't seem to get enough and it's such an effective way to present your case,

I don't write for you. I do not expect you to change your views. Victims of the state who recite one of the standard liturgies defending the state rarely change their views.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   18:37:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Patriot Henry (#22)

As I recall from your earlier post you do not abuse your kids - so why do you defend the "right" of others to do so?

People with functional grey matter realize the difference between a slap on the hand and "abuse". You apparently can't understand the distinction between the two.

How about retards and senile old folks who are in a citizens custody. Is it okay to hurt them if they get out of line?

There is a difference between an infant mind who CAN understand actions and consequences if taught correctly, and those who have lost the ability to do so. In those cases, physical or chemical restraint (in response to truly aggressive and violent behavior) is the only option. Confinement to "safe" rooms is required for people who would otherwise harm themselves or others.

No. However, if the danger is "fork in an outlet" and the lesson taught is "Papa gonna hurt you real good" then that is dangerous. Not only was the danger not addressed, a new danger was introduced.

A slap on the hand and a stern NO does not equate to "DANGER" or "Papa gonna hurt you real good". Electrocution IS a REAL danger, and may very well be lethal.

By the time you allow him to electocute himself, he will be dead, and YOU will be going to jail for criminal negligence. Perhaps we'll be reading about you in the paper, or seeing your face on TV sometime in the future.

From what I've seen most kids, if raised well, by the age of two can understand simple things such as "DANGER" in the tone of a parents voice and they can respond appropriately.

LOL!!!!

How many REAL kids have you been around, I'm not talking about the ones on TELEVISION.

If you have employees, you are responsible for the quality and quantity of work they output. If you have to resort to hitting them, you have failed.

Again, you equate a toddler's mind with that of college educated adults. Are you retarded?

They are different in terms of technique and degree - but they are same in principle if the purpose is to hurt the victim.

Wrong. The purpose of mild corporal punishment is to TEACH the child, and to HELP him or her. Abuse on the other hand is done purely to inflict pain, and to hurt that person.

A simple "NOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear and command should be enough to control most kids.

In addition - why would I be storing children and Draino in the same area?

The kid will either laugh at you or ignore you. It's obvious you've never been around toddlers.

As far as WHY the Drano would be in the same area, well, unless you put locks on all your cabinets and drawers, or unless you never clean your home and live in a pig sty, I'm sure SOMEWHERE in that house there might be something as dangerous as Drano, which a child can and WILL find eventually.

Child locks only work on really young kids, where the more clever older toddlers can figure out how to open them.

If you've never slapped his hand, he'll figure, what's the big deal, the most daddy will do is give me funny looks and make silly noises.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:39:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Patriot Henry (#88) (Edited)

Look, I'm not even going to bother reading that chapter. You are a liar. Retract your comment calling me a child abuser. Then, I will consider reading your post.

You think of yourself as SO original. The first non-parent to claim to all that you will NEVER spank or hit the hand of your child. Then, when the tike comes along you see the idiocy of your utiopian ideals.

Even Buddhist monks smack the other monks to with a stick to redirect them to pure conscienceness. I'm sure in your mind that abuse too. And, you can add that one to your examples of adults smacking other adults. See if anybody will buy into your theory. I'd go with the monk over you everytime.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   18:51:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: FormerLurker (#89)

A simple "NOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear and command should be enough to control most kids.

lol......yeah, no parent has EVER tried that. And it works SO well that all kids simply do what it asked.

What an original idea!! A simple NOOOOOOOO in a voice filled with horror and fear.....why didn't I think of that?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   18:54:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: abraxas (#91)

What an original idea!! A simple NOOOOOOOO in a voice filled with horror and fear.....why didn't I think of that?

Really, ole Pat should write a book on how to raise children, I'm sure it'd be a hit...

LOL


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:57:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: abraxas (#81)

Considering that you have neither, I don't see where you get off dictating either to me. Your only argument is that you do not believe my children are civilized. A matter of which you know nothing about.

I said that if your children believe and behave by a certain standard then they are not truly civilized. I do know something about civilization and what makes it - and proper beliefs and behavior are the foundation of the miracle of civilization. Real civilization is predicated and formed by cooperation. Barbarism including the sophisticated variety that poses as civilization is predicated on and formed by force.

Obviously it WAS the best action because I NEVER did that again. : ) Of course, don't let that get in the way of the melodramatic fiction of abuse raging in your head.

Wrong actions are often very effect, sometimes they are the most effective. So you are saying you would have done it again if he had merely explained your actions and their wrongness to you? Would you have done it again if you had also had to toil extra long and extra hard at some particularly undesirable task? That was the only way you would learn?

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if another adult gave you a spanking. Perhaps making up for a few that would have been beneficial in your childhood.

As a child all I had were my words (and man did adults not like that once I finally learned to speak and was able tell them exactly why they were wrong) - I got a bit more now to ensure that won't happen but my preferred defense is the same. Why would it have been beneficial for me to have been hit by adults as a child? For what offense would that have been? I was extremely obedient, which is why I was and am so angry by those people who insist on making up irrational rules and irrational punishments. The rules should make sense and they should be right. The same is true of punishments.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:02:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Patriot Henry (#93)

I'll pass on that chapter if there is not aknowledgment of the blatant lie you stated about me re: child abuse. Own up to your lie, Patriot Henry.

Will it help is I say "NOOOOOOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear? Do you think that will be effective? Sure doesn't work with tikes who would laugh at their father and keep on doing the same thing in hopes of getting the same silly response.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:06:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: FormerLurker (#89)

People with functional grey matter realize the difference between a slap on the hand and "abuse". You apparently can't understand the distinction between the two.

I can tell the difference between the degree, but I can find no fundamental distinction. Offensive violence is a wide range and scope of action.

As far as WHY the Drano would be in the same area, well, unless you put locks on all your cabinets and drawers, or unless you never clean your home and live in a pig sty, I'm sure SOMEWHERE in that house there might be something as dangerous as Drano, which a child can and WILL find eventually.

I aspire to be more organized and better prepared than that.

Child locks only work on really young kids, where the more clever older toddlers can figure out how to open them.

That's why you should get adult locks.

If you've never slapped his hand, he'll figure, what's the big deal, the most daddy will do is give me funny looks and make silly noises.

Kids aren't usually that dumb. No matter what their age or intelligence is - if you have to resort to violence to control their behavior - it's a sign of failure.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:06:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: FormerLurker (#89)

From what I've seen most kids, if raised well, by the age of two can understand simple things such as "DANGER" in the tone of a parents voice and they can respond appropriately.

LOL!!!!

Let me throw in my LOL as well.

DANGER!!!!! Perhaps it would be more effective with five exclamation points.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:08:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Patriot Henry (#95)

That's why you should get adult locks.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So let's see, you're going to install keyed locks on EVERY cabinet door and drawer in your home, eh? I'm sure your landlord will just LOVE that. If you're retarded enough to do it in a home you own, hey man, go for it.

Kids aren't usually that dumb. No matter what their age or intelligence is

Speaking from that void of experience you have on that, eh? You need to find real people who have real kids, not those you see on TV, and observe for a bit.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:18:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: abraxas (#90)

Look, I'm not even going to bother reading that chapter. You are a liar. Retract your comment calling me a child abuser. Then, I will consider reading your post.

So you are going to try to extort me by threatening to censor your view of critical opinions unless I retract one of those critical opinions.

As I said - it's the first bite that really dooms you.

You think of yourself as SO original. The first non-parent to claim to all that you will NEVER spank or hit the hand of your child. Then, when the tike comes along you see the idiocy of your utiopian ideals.

That's not what I said. I never ever said you should NEVER use force against a child - only never offensively.

Even Buddhist monks smack the other monks to with a stick to redirect them to pure conscienceness. I'm sure in your mind that abuse too. And, you can add that one to your examples of adults smacking other adults. See if anybody will buy into your theory. I'd go with the monk over you everytime.

I could write a thick book criticizing Buddhist monks if I were so inclined.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:20:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: abraxas (#96)

DANGER!!!!! Perhaps it would be more effective with five exclamation points.

I've already used a lot of exclamation points in my last post to Pat (hmmm, ever watch SNL?), so I'll try this on for size..

DANGER DANGER YOUNG CHILD DANGER DANGER


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:21:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: FormerLurker (#89)

A slap on the hand and a stern NO does not equate to "DANGER" or "Papa gonna hurt you real good". Electrocution IS a REAL danger, and may very well be lethal.

That would be defensive force. Probably preventable but sometimes necessary. On the other hand, using force as punishment is offensive force, and that is always wrong.

Again, you equate a toddler's mind with that of college educated adults. Are you retarded?

No, the college educated adults are retarded. That's why they are nearly at the level of a toddler.

There is a difference between an infant mind who CAN understand actions and consequences if taught correctly, and those who have lost the ability to do so. In those cases, physical or chemical restraint (in response to truly aggressive and violent behavior) is the only option. Confinement to "safe" rooms is required for people who would otherwise harm themselves or others. There is a difference between an infant mind who CAN understand actions and consequences if taught correctly, and those who have lost the ability to do so. In those cases, physical or chemical restraint (in response to truly aggressive and violent behavior) is the only option. Confinement to "safe" rooms is required for people who would otherwise harm themselves or others.

Pain ain't the only or the best way to learn or to teach.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:24:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: abraxas (#94)

I'll pass on that chapter if there is not aknowledgment of the blatant lie you stated about me re: child abuse. Own up to your lie, Patriot Henry.

You are a defender of child abuse who is now acting in a juvenile manner having been confronted with the ugly truth. Hitting kids in an offensive manner is abuse. Have you hit your kids to hurt them to coerce them? If so, you are a child abuser. Simple formula.

Will it help is I say "NOOOOOOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear? Do you think that will be effective? Sure doesn't work with tikes who would laugh at their father and keep on doing the same thing in hopes of getting the same silly response.

I'm sorry that your children are so stupid as to only be able to respond to brute force.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: FormerLurker (#99)

DANGER DANGER YOUNG CHILD DANGER DANGER

lol......might I suggest using black letters on bright yellow. Paste them all over the house, at any spot where DANGER!!!! might be lurking.

Great plan!! Kids love bright colors!! Maybe a big neon DRAINO sign where ever that might be placed in the household so that the little children stay away from there..........

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:30:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: FormerLurker, abraxas (#92)

Really, ole Pat should write a book on how to raise children, I'm sure it'd be a hit...

If I wanted to write a hit, I would write about why you should or should not hit your kid. If I wanted to actually write a book on the subject, I'd want to write about why you should and should not hit your kid. The nuance of this argument would be beyond both segments of the market. Having lost those who abuse their children by force and having lost those who abuse their children by the lack of discipline, I would only be able to sell to those who possess unusual amounts of reason and intellectual liberty, and the book would be sure to fail.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Patriot Henry (#101)

I'm sorry that your children are so stupid as to only be able to respond to brute force.

Egads, is insulting other parents' children also part of your stellar parenting plan?

It's not enough to spew lies about me, now you have to insult my children, eh? What a man. And you are telling me that I am acting in a "juvenile manner" to boot. Oh, the irony is so deep on this one I need some hip waders to crawl through your bovine excrement.

Sincerely, I hope you never have children. It's best for the gene pool and also best for the children. Actually, I pity you for the way that you act, the things that you say, the level of arrogance that makes you think you are an expect in an area you have NO experience with.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: abraxas, FormerLurker (#102)

lol......might I suggest using black letters on bright yellow. Paste them all over the house, at any spot where DANGER!!!! might be lurking.

Great plan!! Kids love bright colors!! Maybe a big neon DRAINO sign where ever that might be placed in the household so that the little children stay away from there..........

No, no, what you need is the biggest stick allowed by law so that you can "knock some sense" into the little children. Yep. That makes perfect sense. We'll hit the kids to keep them from being hurt.

That's why you keep kids away from guns by leaving razors open in front of the guns.

Very young children must always be kept in a safe closed space or under close supervision. Substituting proper precautions and judgment calls with hitting the child for your error is terrible parenting. Those old enough to comprehend the dangers and maintain control over their behavior may be punished in many ways other than violence should they fail to obey (not their parents), but the sensible standard dictated by the situation for their behavior.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:37:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Patriot Henry (#103)

I would only be able to sell to those who possess unusual amounts of reason and intellectual liberty, and the book would be sure to fail.

LOL!!! You couldn't even write the book, let alone find an idiot dumb enough to publish it, let alone find a moron beyond your own family to purchase it.

Delusions of granduer on a GRAND scale. Oh, and the notion that you have come up with an original idea in a completely saturated market is even funnier. Your arrogance has no limits.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:39:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Patriot Henry (#105)

Very young children must always be kept in a safe closed space or under close supervision.

What an original idea!! Lock them up in a padded sell until they are at least three, eh? Be an armed guard for your child to assist with fear development and massive insecurity.

Does your idiocy have no limits?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: abraxas (#104)

Egads, is insulting other parents' children also part of your stellar parenting plan?

It's not enough to spew lies about me, now you have to insult my children, eh? What a man. And you are telling me that I am acting in a "juvenile manner" to boot. Oh, the irony is so deep on this one I need some hip waders to crawl through your bovine excrement.

If the only thing that a person responds to is force, then there is an intellectual and or moral deficiency.

Sincerely, I hope you never have children. It's best for the gene pool and also best for the children. Actually, I pity you for the way that you act, the things that you say, the level of arrogance that makes you think you are an expect in an area you have NO experience with.

I am no expert. I am a judge, a critic, a prophet. Hitting kids is wrong. I really doubt your kids were so dull as only to respond to force. I'm sure the real cause was your lack of knowledge of other more viable options.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:44:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Patriot Henry (#101)

I'm sorry that your children are so stupid as to only be able to respond to brute force.

Your's probably won't live long enough to get to that point.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:44:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: abraxas (#107)

What an original idea!! Lock them up in a padded sell until they are at least three, eh? Be an armed guard for your child to assist with fear development and massive insecurity.

Maybe he could hire some cops to watch over them while he sleeps, in case they decide to get up in the middle of the night.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:45:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Patriot Henry (#103)

If I wanted to write a hit, I would write about why you should or should not hit your kid. If I wanted to actually write a book on the subject, I'd want to write about why you should and should not hit your kid. The nuance of this argument would be beyond both segments of the market.

Well Pat, I suggest you devote some time to that, go ahead and give it shot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Patriot Henry (#108)

I am no expert. I am a judge, a critic, a prophet.

Let me be the first to award you with the understatement of the day!

Now, do the right thing for the gene pool and keep your sperm at a safe distance from any and all vaginas. I'm sure that won't be a difficult task as women are running in the other direction in droves.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:48:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: abraxas (#106)

LOL!!! You couldn't even write the book, let alone find an idiot dumb enough to publish it, let alone find a moron beyond your own family to purchase it.

Delusions of granduer on a GRAND scale. Oh, and the notion that you have come up with an original idea in a completely saturated market is even funnier. Your arrogance has no limits.

Could you please share a list of books that defend defensive parental force and oppose offensive parental force? I think I've seen some discussion of the topic in various books but I can't even recall more than a paragraph or two from books and I've only occasionally the rare libertarian article.

I never claimed to come with an original idea. Libertarianism is not a new philosophy.

Nor is it a delusion of grandeur to postulate writing a book. Not only have the least competent do so, with the advent of Nanowrimo the masses of the least competent are doing so.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:50:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: FormerLurker (#110)

Maybe he could hire some cops to watch over them while he sleeps, in case they decide to get up in the middle of the night.

Good idea, maybe a home SWAT team would be in order.

Maybe he could get some help from the DOD with creating an adequate BLOCKADE as DANGERS are lurking every where.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:50:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: abraxas, formerlurker (#107)

What an original idea!! Lock them up in a padded sell until they are at least three, eh? Be an armed guard for your child to assist with fear development and massive insecurity.

I don't think it is necessary to lock them up. I should hope that I am able to outsmart the kids under 5 or 6. If after that they outsmart me I don't think it will create a danger, it would be them keeping me from manufacturing one.

Does your idiocy have no limits?

My idiocy that says if one has to hit kids under the age of 3 because you failed to keep them safe then it's your own stupid fault? Yep - where the force is defensive, that's one limit, and where the need for force would not be prevented by reasonable precaution, that's another limit.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:55:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Patriot Henry (#113)

yada, yada, yada

Sheesh, now I need to be your research assistant. The entire Montasori philosophy is based on the concept of rearing the child in a defensive manner, wherein the child dicates to the parent, if only the child whisperer can hear and obey the commands. In fact, there is a book entitle The Child Whisperer. It sounds really great--in theory, with little practicle applicability.

I said it was a delusion of grandeur for you to write a book about children, not to write a book. Some topics in your sphere of expertise would be: How to Make No Sense or How to Insult Parents or How to be Unoriginal.

Don't confuse Libertarianism with idiocy.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:59:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Patriot Henry, all (#115)

I should hope that I am able to outsmart the kids under 5 or 6.

Who can find a parent that hasn't had a toddler wander out of sight? Oh, but Partiot Henry is smarter than ALL parents have EVER been and this will NEVER happen on his watch......lol.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   20:02:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: FormerLurker, abraxas (#111)

Well Pat, I suggest you devote some time to that, go ahead and give it shot.

Thanks for your support. I will probably write an essay at some point on the subject. I would like to also of course skewer the other side, your opponents, the zero tolerance for parental force, rules, punishments, etc.

Albert Jay Nock wrote about the difference between training and education. The former he said sounded like something done to an animal, which is very apt. Corporal punishment sounds like something an animal trainer would do.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   20:09:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: abraxas (#117)

Who can find a parent that hasn't had a toddler wander out of sight? Oh, but Partiot Henry is smarter than ALL parents have EVER been and this will NEVER happen on his watch......lol.

And if the toddler escapes me then I should impose pain upon it?

No thank you.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   20:11:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: abraxas, FormerLurker (#114)

Good idea, maybe a home SWAT team would be in order.

I wouldn't ever call the cops for a family member. My mother called the cops on me once. I had flipped out, but it was after she made an insane disciplinary call (I could not exercise my privileges as agreed upon after meeting all of the requirements agreed upon for the sole reason of it being her discretionary decision) after about 14 years of such insanity.

That's why I am arguing with y'all. You make a slight error in judgment. That's wrong, it's abuse, but it's the abuse you don't do but help to happen that I am most opposed to. It's like teaching kids that it's okay to lie a little bit, or steal a little bit. I refuse to accept compromise the principles of law and liberty because of tradition or popularity. A small compromise that isn't all that wrong compared to much worse offenses helps encourage those much worse offenses.

It's also very interesting that you crack jokes about me needing cops or a SWAT team. The iron fist of the state is the preeminent domestic example of the institution of offensive violent force.

Maybe he could get some help from the DOD with creating an adequate BLOCKADE as DANGERS are lurking every where.

Or I could educate the kids on how to be safe and smart.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   20:23:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: abraxas, FormerLurker, Eric Stratton, Artisan, Ragin1 (#117) (Edited)

At this point, the poster "acting" stuck in dementia is appearing to be more than a garden-variety ego-surfer, actually a shill, a troll, a time-waster, engaging the intelligent posters showing compassion for his feigned pathetic ignorance in order to deflect focus away from more weighty matters, like cutting the crap in Israel's latest propaganda, the oil volcano and the imminent deliberate collapse of the world's economic system.

The moniker may be a clue; the "Patrick Henry" moniker was already taken by the law-knowledgeable person so the fallback was to Patriot, the last refuge of a scoundrel! Also, an homage to the misleadingly named "Patriot Act", whose more apt name would have been the "Traitor Act".

See, we can all riff, but does it ring true? 8=>

Besides the lack of common manners, the display of petulance and the personal attacks on those attempting to reach "him" with reason are enough of a smoking ass to reveal the smoke-blowing agenda.

In any case, reasoned discourse with a dedicated ego-surfer content to live inside the ass of the nanny state, is a waste of valuable resources!


Anger? as a first reaction to get your a$$ moving, once you see through the Media Matrix and set yourself free from your lifelong mind control collar. Sustainable? not enough to screen your intention to be free from the Talosians, who can’t read primitive emotions but know what you watch on cable/sat, read on the Internet and eat. Our ultimate weapon is laughter and amused detachment at the folly of the would-be emperors. Fear mongers HATE it when the FEAR card doesn’t work. The humiliation of being seen as merely a naked ape is THEIR big fear. Laugh the bastards off the stage! Tell your friends that we can build a real civilization from the ruins of the totalitarian game!

HighLairEon  posted on  2010-06-06   21:06:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: HighLairEon (#121)

At this point, the poster "acting" stuck in dementia is appearing to be more than a garden-variety ego-surfer, actually a shill, a troll, a time-waster, engaging the intelligent posters showing compassion for his feigned pathetic ignorance in order to deflect focus away from more weighty matters, like cutting the crap in Israel's latest propaganda, the oil volcano and the imminent deliberate collapse of the world's economic system.

The barbarism rampant in parenting techniques, both traditional and modern, is connected directly to those issues. All part of the same human system of society.

The moniker may be a clue; the "Patrick Henry" moniker was already taken by the law-knowledgeable person so the fallback was to Patriot, the last refuge of a scoundrel! Also, an homage to the misleadingly named "Patriot Act", whose more apt name would have been the "Traitor Act".

It's a play on words. It's also a test of reading comprehension - many people even after many posts interacting with me don't realize I am not Patrick Henry.

See, we can all riff, but does it ring true?

In any case, reasoned discourse with a dedicated ego-surfer content to live inside the ass of the nanny state, is a waste of valuable resources!

Of course, ignore the one questioning the infant beneath your boot and the little one shrieking under your raised hand. Was there ever any other option?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   21:20:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: FormerLurker (#83)

More than likely, if you ever tell Jr. that he can't hit his mom or his little sister, he'll kick your ass.

I should hope to not have family members who are unable to defend themselves.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   21:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Patriot Henry (#120) (Edited)

My mother called the cops on me once

That's why I am arguing with y'all.

Quit making the lot of us suffer for mommy's "mistakes"....get over it already. How long are you going to carry that "cross" and take your venom out on all other parents who WEREN'T YOUR MEAN OL' MOMMY?

Deal with your friggin' baggage already. Man up for crying out loud.

We don't do what your mommy did to you. Never have. Never will. So enough with your "victim mentality" spew. Egads, you should be ashamed of yourself. I knew a mommy complex was at the heart of your idiotic diatribe. You ooze mommy complex, pal. Luckily, women can spot that sort of thing a mile away and we don't have to worry at all about you have any sex....whew!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   22:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: abraxas (#124)

Quit making the lot of us suffer for mommy's "mistakes"....get over it already. How long are you going to carry that "cross" and take your venom out on all other parents who WEREN'T YOUR MEAN OL' MOMMY?

Despite all of my mothers mistakes, at least she never inflicted physcial pain on me. She never hit me, never kicked me, never whipped me, and never hurt me.

Can you say the same about your parents or yourself? Apparently not.

Deal with your friggin' baggage already. Man up for crying out loud.

I did. Apparently since I didn't choose to do so by hurting a child that is not acceptable. Should I have kids to beat them so that I can be just like you and your twisted cult of child abusers?

We don't do what your mommy did to you. Never have. Never will. So enough with your "victim mentality" spew. Egads, you should be ashamed of yourself. I knew a mommy complex was at the heart of your idiotic diatribe. You ooze mommy complex, pal. Luckily, women can spot that sort of thing a mile away and we don't have to worry at all about you have any sex....whew!!

That's some standard lousy psychology. You can get a bunch of people with PhDs from Stanford, Yale, Harvard to agree with you - but all it is a bunch of certified loony tunes bullshit from incompetents and frauds.

I learned from my mothers mistakes. The lesson she taught me was that adults and parents are not the source of authority. God is. You disagree with that obviously when you play God and become the Devil and hurt your own offspring. Nothing I can say will ever hurt you nor will it save you from being hurt by your own actions. You have failed your own kids, yourself, your family, and your God. The only excuse you could possibly cling to is that you hit your kids because your daddy beat you - lame excuse for your moral and parental failings.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-07   17:02:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: Patriot Henry (#125)

Certified loon. Period. Have you read the repercussions of not following God's word?

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-07   17:50:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: HighLairEon (#121)

The moniker may be a clue; the "Patrick Henry" moniker was already taken by the law-knowledgeable person so the fallback was to Patriot,

Damn. This idiot had me. I initially posted thinking it was him/her. Great catch.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-07   18:04:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Patriot Henry (#125)

Partiot Henry

It is your OWN mother whom you believe to be a child abuser. Go take it up with her, not people you do not even know on the internet. It is obvious when you feel the need to "unload" your Mean Ol' Mommy stories and call others child abusers, that you, in fact, have NOT dealt with it.

In case you failed to grasp my post. I don't have any problem with my parents. I am grateful for them.....even the spankings!! Imagine that. I know, again this goes against your projected abuse fantasy, but this is the truth.

Did mommy teach you how to plan a guilt trip, too? Perhaps that sort of manipulation worked on you, but it isn't working on me. lol

In case you haven't noticed, YOU are the only one making excuses along this thread. More victim mentatlity I suspect. Now run along and call your own Mommy and tell her all the terrible things she did that you are now compelled to share with strangers on the internet. It will be much more effective than projecting onto strangers.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-07   18:20:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Ragin1, patriot henry (#126)

Do you see the irony of it all?

Those of us who had parents who provided boundaries and disciple, including a deserved spanking now and again, actually love, respect and are grateful for our parents. While ol' Patriot Henry never had a spanking in his life but repays his mother with disrespect and airs her dirty laundry to dry on the internet while projecting fantasies about child abuse on others.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-07   18:33:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Ragin1 (#126)

Certified loon. Period. Have you read the repercussions of not following God's word?

Ayuh. Those who hurt their own kids shall find out a bit more about those repercussions.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-09   10:38:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: abraxas (#128)

It is your OWN mother whom you believe to be a child abuser. Go take it up with her, not people you do not even know on the internet. It is obvious when you feel the need to "unload" your Mean Ol' Mommy stories and call others child abusers, that you, in fact, have NOT dealt with it.

I have dealt with it. I suppose I should not talk to others about the dangers of the state since the state was 10000 times worse than my mother in terms of abusing me as a child?

In case you failed to grasp my post. I don't have any problem with my parents. I am grateful for them.....even the spankings!! Imagine that. I know, again this goes against your projected abuse fantasy, but this is the truth.

Stockholm syndrome. That's what that is. You identify with those who victimize you.

Did mommy teach you how to plan a guilt trip, too? Perhaps that sort of manipulation worked on you, but it isn't working on me. lol

Guilt trips require two things: a conscience and intellectual awareness of the wrong. You have the former but clearly lack the latter.

In case you haven't noticed, YOU are the only one making excuses along this thread. More victim mentatlity I suspect. Now run along and call your own Mommy and tell her all the terrible things she did that you are now compelled to share with strangers on the internet. It will be much more effective than projecting onto strangers.

Interesting take. Since I had life experiences that I learned from and resolved in the past much in the manner you prescribe, I should forget the lessons learned and begin again where I was as a child? Interesting take on it. Oh, and I am "projecting" my mothers emotional abuse by somehow forcing you to state from your user account that you hurt your kids? That's some mighty powerful projection!

I called my mother on her insanity when I was a child. I would explain why she was illogical, irrational, and wrong. She didn't like that anymore than you do. Sure seems people don't like it when they do wrong and someone else points it out.

A friend of mine, a 16 year genius, called out her moronic teacher the other day, pointing out the idiocy of the work and the system. The teacher kicked her out. Apparently she should have done 2 days worth of work in a year, and then repeated that same work four years in a row, all without thought or complaint. The same young lady also has very poor relations with her father, is bright but not too far from the average intelligence level. Much of the reason for this it turns out is that he would use corporal punishment on her when she was young. Apparently corporeal punishment doesn't work very well on unusually intelligent people. It seems to work okay on the ordinary folks. The real problem is that so many ordinary people have extraordinary kids and these parents lack any better means of discipline.

Of course, you probably don't see any problem with parents using force on their children who at a young age are able to comprehend the logical fallacies behind the rules and the punishment, eh? Nothing wrong with elders hurting their intellectual betters?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-09   10:55:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: abraxas (#129)

Those of us who had parents who provided boundaries and disciple, including a deserved spanking now and again, actually love, respect and are grateful for our parents. While ol' Patriot Henry never had a spanking in his life but repays his mother with disrespect and airs her dirty laundry to dry on the internet while projecting fantasies about child abuse on others.

If you failed to notice this is an anonymous forum.

I learned from the mistakes of my parents. Thus I have no shame in discussing them.

Also, why would I have received a spanking? I followed all of the rules. I suppose my mother should have made up one of her irrational decisions contradicting all previous rules and then used physical violence to assault me? Is that what you are advocating in favor of?

That's what I'm advocating against.

I am not projecting fantasies. I was referring to the posts you wrote and published in the public domain. There is a substantial amount of difference between a poster referring to statements that exist solely within their own heads or posts and a poster referring to statements made by others in their posts.

And again, why don't you explain exactly what excuse should have been contrived to hurt me? Maybe you could write a pamphlet for parents who have extremely obedient children i.e. "How to frame your kids so you can smack them one, for their own good".

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-09   11:02:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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