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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Source: townhall.com
URL Source: http://townhall.com/columnists/Mary ... r_issue_than_rights_of_a_child
Published: May 26, 2010
Author: Marybeth Hicks
Post Date: 2010-05-26 09:06:24 by Eric Stratton
Keywords: None
Views: 1166
Comments: 132

Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Marybeth Hicks
Wednesday, May 26, 2010

If you’re a parent, you’re probably too busy doing the day-to-day work of raising your children to worry about an international treaty that could actually undermine your authority over them.

But if you’ve ever insisted that your teenager drag himself out of bed on a Sunday morning to attend church with the family, or required him to find a part-time job to pay for the increase in your car insurance, or – heaven forbid – if you’ve ever spanked a young child for an act of willful disobedience, there are folks who’d like to override your parental judgment.

Folks like President Obama, in fact.

The issue of parental rights is at the heart of the ongoing debate over the US’s failure to ratify the UN’s Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC). Mr. Obama thinks it’s a travesty that the US and Somalia – a country not known as a beacon of human rights – are the only two nations that haven’t ratified this treaty. Not only does he support its intrusions into our national sovereignty on behalf of children, he’s openly embarrassed to be on the short list with Somalia.

Up to now, it’s been a worried American homeschool community that most vocally opposes the CRC. That’s because the treaty clearly places responsibility for the education of children in the hands of the federal government. Such a mandate would certainly threaten the freedom of states to allow, and of parents to choose, homeschooling as an option to educate their children.

But it’s not just homeschooling parents who ought to be nervous about the CRC. We all should because the language of the treaty – which would supersede all American law other than the Constitution – radically changes the authority structure between parents, children and the state. In short, in line after line, it applies the standard of “the best interests of the child” to determine what’s permissible and what isn’t.

For example, the treaty creates "the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion." So if your child doesn’t want to go to a religious school, the law would favor his preference, not your desire to instill your faith.

It prohibits "arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy," which means you’d better not snoop in your son’s pockets while sorting the laundry. This could literally be illegal, and too bad if you find something to set off your parental alarm.

In fact, in Scotland, a CRC nation, a pamphlet for Scottish children explaining how they are helped by the treaty says, “In Scotland, the law recognises that your parents should normally be the people who care for you, if it’s the best thing for you.”

That’s very different from a provision that might say, “You have the right to the protection and care of your parents and can only be removed from your family if you are the victim of abuse or neglect.” The reason it doesn’t read this way is because that’s not what the CRC intends.

And who decides what’s “the best thing”? Take a guess.

It makes sense that the US stands nearly alone in refusing to ratify this treaty, since we live in the safest, most prosperous, most desirable country in which to be a child.

The CRC makes sense in places where girls can be sold into marriage at age 10, or where children are routinely victims of the sex trades, or of child labor abuse.

But in the US, the only logical reason to sign the CRC is to expand, through that new “international order” the president mentioned this past weekend, the role of the federal government into the daily lives and decisions of American parents and families.

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) has introduced S.R. 519, opposing ratification of the CRC. He hopes to find 34 co-sponsors and thereby signal to the president that there’s no need to send the treaty to the Senate for advice and consent since it wouldn’t pass. This is the end-run play; the game winner is a Parental Rights Amendment to the Constitution.

It’s a good time to call a Senator or two and encourage them to join in co-sponsoring Sen. DeMint’s resolution.

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#73. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

i cry fou on this article number one because marybeth decries government intrusion as by only the obama administration, and characterizes this as only a looming un threat instead of an already long existing tyranny in practice by the USSA for decades or longer. she doesnt mention child services. 'The UN/obama threat', as if bush didnt push it also? thus minimizing thr real problem as a partisan one. also, Mexico, according to this article is a signatory to this treaty, but they allow homeschooling and private school, in contrast to what she claimed it would do.

"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-06-06   17:01:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Artisan (#73)

i cry fou on this article number one because marybeth decries government intrusion as by only the obama administration,

If anyone noticed, most of the things the Obama administration has done are just continuances of the 5 prior administrations. It's like a snowball rolling down a 35 year long grade.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   17:09:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: HighLairEon (#72)

Most excellent post HairLairEon. And thank you for your kind words. : ) The bottom line IS accountability and responsibility.

Yes, I think you are correct. Reasoning begins at the ealier phase while direct questioning of authority begins in the tumultuous adolescent years. Good call on that. If the parenting job is done well, those adolescent years should be less tumultuous for both the parent and the child. Personally, I never experienced any terrible twos at all--no tantrums, no fits. I'm hoping I will be so luck when my girls hit middle school. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   17:20:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: abraxas, (#65)

So basically, the laws should be rewritten according to your personal definitions and beliefs. Yeah, that's a solution.

No, the laws should be written in accordance with the principles of the law and liberty.

That is a solution.

Parents are care takers. Hurting a person is not taking care of them EXCEPT IN A DEFENSIVE SITUATION. (and that there is why I ain't no stinkin "liberal").

Where's the reasoning in your position?

People have a right not to suffer physical pain at the hands of others. It's part of the right of life. Those people who are incapable of caring for themselves must be put into the care of others, but this does not disable their right not to be in physical pain because of others. Those who have custody of others do not have the right or power to impose pain on those in their custody. No one has that right or power. It is wrong to hurt others except for defense.

This applies to children, the retarded, those in a coma, the senile, the insane, prisoners, etc. Throughout history those who have had custody of other people have traditionally violated the right to physical safety. What you folks call "spanking" is a politically correct, white washed, watered down, softie version of the real deal. The fact that it is a weak facsimile of child abuse doesn't make it right or acceptable or moral or necessary. It is a fundamental violation of our natural God given rights to be hurt by another. Hurting a person in ones custody is a fundamental violation of the duties and responsibilities of a person who has chosen to undertake that role. That is why corporal punishment is always wrong and doubly so - it is a violation of the victims rights AND it is a violation of the duties and responsibilities of the CUSTODIAN.

I apologize for the all caps there (and again for my earlier posts) - but I wanted to emphasize that parents are custodians. They have duties, responsibilities, powers, etc. They do not own the child, the child does not belong to them as personal or private property would. They have a natural standard of how to take care of the child. A good starting point to define that standard would be the Golden Rule and a series of thoughts about it with relation to this issue.

"Treat others as you wish to be treated" is one way people put it. The reason why parents have custody of kids is because the kids can't even treat themselves as they wish to be treated let alone others. They step into the natural role of the child and fulfill it's functions until it is able to so, and they play a critical role in helping the child learn to fulfill it's functions. Those functions, as an adult who can treat oneself as one wishes and who can treat others in the same manner, generally do not include the use of physical pain as a disciplinary method. I've studied self-discipline for some time and am no expert - but I've never ever heard anyone suggest that it makes sense for adults to hit or strike themselves, or to wash out their mouths with soap. Now, people do do these things, but they are generally recognized as freaks and they usually self identify as such.

Now this might all seem very bizarre and irrelevant to you - but my point is that as a firm, steady, reliable, and true rule - civilized adult human beings do not use physical force to discipline themselves. As a general rule, they do not do so with other people either, the exceptions being largely when the state does so. Even most of the states/governments in the world do not use striking blows to cause pain even for punishing criminals. It is not accepted anymore to hit retarded people, or the insane, or the senile. There is still quite a bit of exceptions to the rule, but as a rule the use of offensive force is considered to be wrong with most of the exceptions being the enormous hypocrisy of the state.

Humanity has made much progress in some ways in becoming civilized. The growing disapproval of offensive force is important - one example of this disapproval is the standard that says it is wrong to use offensive force against those in your custody.

That's the reasoning in my position - It is fundamentally wrong to use corporal punishment on children because it is a violation of their rights and it is a violation of ones parental duty to safeguard and protect their rights.

I wouldn't favor prohibiting all physical force. I would be okay of course with defensive force, and I would even favor reasonable regulations for corporeal punishment, including that the punishment must be for a violation of a rule and that the rule and the violation and the punishment must be explained to the child. While I think your abuse of your kids is wrong, I don't think it should be illegal if sufficiently moderate. I would favor using social pressure - such as pointing out what you are doing is shockingly brutal, savage, barbaric and reminding you that corporal punishment is only the tiniest morsel of evil really means you should remember it's the first bite that really dooms you even if it's not nearly enough to kill you.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   17:23:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Patriot Henry (#76)

and I would even favor reasonable regulations for corporeal punishment, including that the punishment must be for a violation of a rule and that the rule and the violation and the punishment must be explained to the child.

And there you have it folks. Patriot Henry agrees. Spanking is good as long as the state can oversee.

Your pathetic and you have a whole lot to learn before you rear a child. Period.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   17:27:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Ragin1, all, Patriot Henry (#77)

I would even favor reasonable regulations

I noticed that word "reasonable" when it comes to regulating things that are none of the states business.

Think "reasonable" firearms / ammo regulations. Same wording from the same kind of people. That word "reasonable" is used intentionally to imply that those that disagree with the libtards idiocy are being unreasonable.

Spanking is not abuse. Tards like him equate it with the genuine abuse that does occur. It's guilt by association.

Henry, you blew your cover, you motherfucker.

.


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CHIMPOUT!

Live free or die kill ~~ Me
God is a separatist. That's good enough for me.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-06-06   17:45:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: abraxas (#70)

I don't care what you think of my children, really. Get back to me when you have some parenting experience to contribute.

That's a convenient way to dismiss me and my arguments. Experience does not substitute for principles.

What are these "irrational reasons" you speak of? I recall my dad spanking me for riding on my horse chasing this cow that used to charge people. I deserved it and I never treated a cow like that again. How can you spin that into abuse?

If you made a similar stupid mistake today would you spank yourself or get someone else to hit you?

It's not spinning that into abuse. When your father treated you like a out of line dog that was abuse. It wasn't the only option, that wasn't the best option, and if you ever saw an adult taking that option with themselves or someone else you likely not approve.

That's your guess, eh? Why berate those of us who aren't anywhere near your best guess?

I berate you for what you have done, which is only a moderated form of those who go to a worse level of abuse. You might condemn the actions of others who beat their children more severely, but you condone the principle (or lack thereof).

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   17:45:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Patriot Henry (#76)

People have a right not to suffer physical pain at the hands of others. It's part of the right of life.

What you folks call "spanking" is a politically correct, white washed, watered down, softie version of the real deal.

While I think your abuse of your kids is wrong, I don't think it should be illegal if sufficiently moderate. I would favor using social pressure - such as pointing out what you are doing is shockingly brutal, savage, barbaric and reminding you that corporal punishment is only the tiniest morsel of evil really means you should remember it's the first bite that really dooms you even if it's not nearly enough to kill you.

but I wanted to emphasize that parents are custodians

Having actually gone through the pain of bringing life into this world, I find your "right not to suffer physical pain" comical.

In your world, Patriot Henry. You have a right to your opinion. But, no matter how you spin it, I'm not going to see it your way. In you mind, my father was a child abuser for whipping my butt with a belt when I deserved it.

I do believe that having provided food, shelter, love, affection and discipline to real children, that I have a better idea of what it means to be a custodian than you do. A custodian is more than the chief diaper changer and more than the head chef. It is my duty and my responsibility to teach my children to be responsible and accountable for their actions.

We live by the golden rule around here too. So, you are saying that when my eight year old smacks my six year old, I should solve the problem by punching her. No thanks. A time out and then a spanking if a change of behavior isn't forthcoming is more rational and effective.

Like I said the natural role of a child is to NEED and WANT boundaries, to learn through trial and error that actions DO have consequences.

I never have and never will abuse my children. You are being an out right liar for stating that. It's rather dispicapable.

Oh but wait, let me pack my bags for your pre-planned guilt trip. All Aboard!! Your social pressure is plastic--like a Nixon halloween mask. Corporal punishment can only be evil if the the person delivers it with malice and ill- intent. Spanking are given to redirect, never with malice. Frankly, I have a rule to never spank when I'm mad and I always discuss the progression of behavior leading to the consequence with my kids.

Weren't you going to tell me how my dad was abusive for spanking me? How he was shockingly brutal, savage, and barbaric? Wow, I guess we are just terrible, evil, aweful people........doomed for sure.

More melodrama please. I just can't seem to get enough and it's such an effecitive way to present your case, with an equally ineffective guilt trip on top.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   17:46:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Patriot Henry (#79)

That's a convenient way to dismiss me and my arguments. Experience does not substitute for principles.

that wasn't the best option, and if you ever saw an adult taking that option with themselves or someone else you likely not approve.

Considering that you have neither, I don't see where you get off dictating either to me. Your only argument is that you do not believe my children are civilized. A matter of which you know nothing about.

Obviously it WAS the best action because I NEVER did that again. : ) Of course, don't let that get in the way of the melodramatic fiction of abuse raging in your head.

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if another adult gave you a spanking. Perhaps making up for a few that would have been beneficial in your childhood.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   17:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Ragin1 (#77)

And there you have it folks. Patriot Henry agrees. Spanking is good as long as the state can oversee.

Aas I am anti-statist who favors the permanent dissolution and prohibition of the state that really makes no sense. I stated nothing of the kind.

Your pathetic and you have a whole lot to learn before you rear a child. Period.

I most likely will not have children before I am 40 if I can help it as I wish to be well prepared. I highly doubt that in the next decade or so that I will discover the joys and wonders of using coercive acts of violence that use pain as a means of negative association in a Pavlovian behavioral science program designed to reduce them to the level of a well trained animal rather than developing them up to the level of a civilized human being. I might be wrong...but I doubt it.

If I do have kids, I plan on raising them to defend themselves from anyone who raises a hand or fist or weapon against them. If I ever were to try to spank my kid I would be overjoyed if they were to put me down on the ground in defense of themselves. Two wrongs don't make a right. Discipline does not come from using pain as a punishment - at least not for human beings. It comes from self-restraint and self-determination. The exercise of offensive violent force by other parties does not effectively teach those properties.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   17:56:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Patriot Henry (#82)

I ever were to try to spank my kid I would be overjoyed if they were to put me down on the ground in defense of themselves.

More than likely, if you ever tell Jr. that he can't hit his mom or his little sister, he'll kick your ass.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:04:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Patriot Henry (#28)

No, it's the fact that hitting kids with a board bigger than a baseball bat is permitted in Ohio for teachers even.

Huh huh. Come back with some links from the state of Ohio that explains that law, and then perhaps I'll believe you.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Patriot Henry (#23)

Is it okay to use electricity on a child? One can easily control the power so that it hurts no more and no less than a particular slap or spanking or belt.

Or how about making them kneel or maintain other painful physical positions?

And of course, using a large board to beat them is okay in many states, so you don't have any problem with that right?

You equate a slap on the hand with electro shock, and a slight slap on the bum with stress positions and whacking them over the head with a wooden board.

Did your parents control you with some sort of psychiatric drug, such as Ritalin perhaps? Something damaged your brain, that's for sure...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:10:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Patriot Henry (#23)

Situation 6. Everyday before dinner Momma spanks each child 25 times, for making her cook the dinner. Every single day until they are 18 or run away.

Do you fantasize about this stuff?

You are either coming up with this shit in a masturbatory fantasy, trying to get a "rise" out of people here, or you truly are one twisted fuck.

Again, you equate normal parental discipline involving a slap on the bum when absolutely needed with wanton psychotic abuse inflicted for fun.

Get some help.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:13:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Artisan (#73)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-06-06   18:17:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: abraxas (#80)

Having actually gone through the pain of bringing life into this world, I find your "right not to suffer physical pain" comical.

In your world, Patriot Henry. You have a right to your opinion. But, no matter how you spin it, I'm not going to see it your way. In you mind, my father was a child abuser for whipping my butt with a belt when I deserved it.

Kids don't deserve to be hit. "Liberals" are right about that one. Kids most certainly do deserve punishment - "conservatives" are right about that one.

As a rule no one deserves to be hit. The exceptions, the sole exceptions, the only exceptions are those people who get hit in defense.

It is not only in my mind that this is wrong - it is in the action itself.

Like I said the natural role of a child is to NEED and WANT boundaries, to learn through trial and error that actions DO have consequences.

The relative mildness of your "consequences" compared to those who use a heavier hand when they beat their kids does not excuse or justify the actions.

I do believe that having provided food, shelter, love, affection and discipline to real children, that I have a better idea of what it means to be a custodian than you do. A custodian is more than the chief diaper changer and more than the head chef. It is my duty and my responsibility to teach my children to be responsible and accountable for their actions.

All you have done is raised your kids according to tradition. You are the victim of a victim of a victim etc etc etc. It's an age old tradition to either "beat sense into your kids" or "beat your kids senseless" - but it's the same tradition. You failed in the same way others have always failed. There is no sound principle behind what you say. The responsibilities of a parent do not justify their using pain to obtain compliance. That's a terrible excuse for hitting your kids.

I never have and never will abuse my children. You are being an out right liar for stating that. It's rather dispicapable.

I said it based on principle. I stand by it.

I recognize the honorable intent, the moderation, the purposefulness, the effect, but I also recognize the principle, the action, and the unintended consequences.

Oh but wait, let me pack my bags for your pre-planned guilt trip. All Aboard!! Your social pressure is plastic--like a Nixon halloween mask. Corporal punishment can only be evil if the the person delivers it with malice and ill- intent. Spanking are given to redirect, never with malice. Frankly, I have a rule to never spank when I'm mad and I always discuss the progression of behavior leading to the consequence with my kids.

I've had this argument before with other people. They said the same thing. Malice is not necessary for evil. Nor is ill-intent. An evil action does not need to be caused by an evil thought or an evil feeling or an evil person. A good person with good feelings and good thoughts doing an evil thing might make it into the politically correct form of spanking you endorse, but it's still evil. The offensive use of violent force is wrong. Using violent offensive force as punishment is wrong. It's a fundamental violation of maintaining custody. It is a transgression onto the grounds that only God if anyone/anything is fit to walk on.

You can't do the wrong thing the right way. It is the wrong way. It can never be the right way.

Weren't you going to tell me how my dad was abusive for spanking me? How he was shockingly brutal, savage, and barbaric? Wow, I guess we are just terrible, evil, aweful people........doomed for sure.

Human beings are pretty dang backwards. Injustice is an institution.

More melodrama please. I just can't seem to get enough and it's such an effecitive way to present your case, with an equally ineffective guilt trip on top.

Guilt only works for those who have a conscience. It is possible to lose only part of your conscience. Those who favor hitting kids are at least partly morally blind. You can't feel guilty about something you can not see or understand. So long as you feel right in your actions you won't feel any guilt. As far as melodrama - this is part of the reason why the world is so messed up. It's not the biggest or most important part, not by a long shot, but it's still part of why we are still living in the Dark Ages.

I just can't seem to get enough and it's such an effective way to present your case,

I don't write for you. I do not expect you to change your views. Victims of the state who recite one of the standard liturgies defending the state rarely change their views.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   18:37:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Patriot Henry (#22)

As I recall from your earlier post you do not abuse your kids - so why do you defend the "right" of others to do so?

People with functional grey matter realize the difference between a slap on the hand and "abuse". You apparently can't understand the distinction between the two.

How about retards and senile old folks who are in a citizens custody. Is it okay to hurt them if they get out of line?

There is a difference between an infant mind who CAN understand actions and consequences if taught correctly, and those who have lost the ability to do so. In those cases, physical or chemical restraint (in response to truly aggressive and violent behavior) is the only option. Confinement to "safe" rooms is required for people who would otherwise harm themselves or others.

No. However, if the danger is "fork in an outlet" and the lesson taught is "Papa gonna hurt you real good" then that is dangerous. Not only was the danger not addressed, a new danger was introduced.

A slap on the hand and a stern NO does not equate to "DANGER" or "Papa gonna hurt you real good". Electrocution IS a REAL danger, and may very well be lethal.

By the time you allow him to electocute himself, he will be dead, and YOU will be going to jail for criminal negligence. Perhaps we'll be reading about you in the paper, or seeing your face on TV sometime in the future.

From what I've seen most kids, if raised well, by the age of two can understand simple things such as "DANGER" in the tone of a parents voice and they can respond appropriately.

LOL!!!!

How many REAL kids have you been around, I'm not talking about the ones on TELEVISION.

If you have employees, you are responsible for the quality and quantity of work they output. If you have to resort to hitting them, you have failed.

Again, you equate a toddler's mind with that of college educated adults. Are you retarded?

They are different in terms of technique and degree - but they are same in principle if the purpose is to hurt the victim.

Wrong. The purpose of mild corporal punishment is to TEACH the child, and to HELP him or her. Abuse on the other hand is done purely to inflict pain, and to hurt that person.

A simple "NOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear and command should be enough to control most kids.

In addition - why would I be storing children and Draino in the same area?

The kid will either laugh at you or ignore you. It's obvious you've never been around toddlers.

As far as WHY the Drano would be in the same area, well, unless you put locks on all your cabinets and drawers, or unless you never clean your home and live in a pig sty, I'm sure SOMEWHERE in that house there might be something as dangerous as Drano, which a child can and WILL find eventually.

Child locks only work on really young kids, where the more clever older toddlers can figure out how to open them.

If you've never slapped his hand, he'll figure, what's the big deal, the most daddy will do is give me funny looks and make silly noises.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:39:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Patriot Henry (#88) (Edited)

Look, I'm not even going to bother reading that chapter. You are a liar. Retract your comment calling me a child abuser. Then, I will consider reading your post.

You think of yourself as SO original. The first non-parent to claim to all that you will NEVER spank or hit the hand of your child. Then, when the tike comes along you see the idiocy of your utiopian ideals.

Even Buddhist monks smack the other monks to with a stick to redirect them to pure conscienceness. I'm sure in your mind that abuse too. And, you can add that one to your examples of adults smacking other adults. See if anybody will buy into your theory. I'd go with the monk over you everytime.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   18:51:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: FormerLurker (#89)

A simple "NOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear and command should be enough to control most kids.

lol......yeah, no parent has EVER tried that. And it works SO well that all kids simply do what it asked.

What an original idea!! A simple NOOOOOOOO in a voice filled with horror and fear.....why didn't I think of that?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   18:54:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: abraxas (#91)

What an original idea!! A simple NOOOOOOOO in a voice filled with horror and fear.....why didn't I think of that?

Really, ole Pat should write a book on how to raise children, I'm sure it'd be a hit...

LOL


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   18:57:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: abraxas (#81)

Considering that you have neither, I don't see where you get off dictating either to me. Your only argument is that you do not believe my children are civilized. A matter of which you know nothing about.

I said that if your children believe and behave by a certain standard then they are not truly civilized. I do know something about civilization and what makes it - and proper beliefs and behavior are the foundation of the miracle of civilization. Real civilization is predicated and formed by cooperation. Barbarism including the sophisticated variety that poses as civilization is predicated on and formed by force.

Obviously it WAS the best action because I NEVER did that again. : ) Of course, don't let that get in the way of the melodramatic fiction of abuse raging in your head.

Wrong actions are often very effect, sometimes they are the most effective. So you are saying you would have done it again if he had merely explained your actions and their wrongness to you? Would you have done it again if you had also had to toil extra long and extra hard at some particularly undesirable task? That was the only way you would learn?

Frankly, I wouldn't mind if another adult gave you a spanking. Perhaps making up for a few that would have been beneficial in your childhood.

As a child all I had were my words (and man did adults not like that once I finally learned to speak and was able tell them exactly why they were wrong) - I got a bit more now to ensure that won't happen but my preferred defense is the same. Why would it have been beneficial for me to have been hit by adults as a child? For what offense would that have been? I was extremely obedient, which is why I was and am so angry by those people who insist on making up irrational rules and irrational punishments. The rules should make sense and they should be right. The same is true of punishments.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:02:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Patriot Henry (#93)

I'll pass on that chapter if there is not aknowledgment of the blatant lie you stated about me re: child abuse. Own up to your lie, Patriot Henry.

Will it help is I say "NOOOOOOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear? Do you think that will be effective? Sure doesn't work with tikes who would laugh at their father and keep on doing the same thing in hopes of getting the same silly response.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:06:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: FormerLurker (#89)

People with functional grey matter realize the difference between a slap on the hand and "abuse". You apparently can't understand the distinction between the two.

I can tell the difference between the degree, but I can find no fundamental distinction. Offensive violence is a wide range and scope of action.

As far as WHY the Drano would be in the same area, well, unless you put locks on all your cabinets and drawers, or unless you never clean your home and live in a pig sty, I'm sure SOMEWHERE in that house there might be something as dangerous as Drano, which a child can and WILL find eventually.

I aspire to be more organized and better prepared than that.

Child locks only work on really young kids, where the more clever older toddlers can figure out how to open them.

That's why you should get adult locks.

If you've never slapped his hand, he'll figure, what's the big deal, the most daddy will do is give me funny looks and make silly noises.

Kids aren't usually that dumb. No matter what their age or intelligence is - if you have to resort to violence to control their behavior - it's a sign of failure.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:06:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: FormerLurker (#89)

From what I've seen most kids, if raised well, by the age of two can understand simple things such as "DANGER" in the tone of a parents voice and they can respond appropriately.

LOL!!!!

Let me throw in my LOL as well.

DANGER!!!!! Perhaps it would be more effective with five exclamation points.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:08:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Patriot Henry (#95)

That's why you should get adult locks.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So let's see, you're going to install keyed locks on EVERY cabinet door and drawer in your home, eh? I'm sure your landlord will just LOVE that. If you're retarded enough to do it in a home you own, hey man, go for it.

Kids aren't usually that dumb. No matter what their age or intelligence is

Speaking from that void of experience you have on that, eh? You need to find real people who have real kids, not those you see on TV, and observe for a bit.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:18:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: abraxas (#90)

Look, I'm not even going to bother reading that chapter. You are a liar. Retract your comment calling me a child abuser. Then, I will consider reading your post.

So you are going to try to extort me by threatening to censor your view of critical opinions unless I retract one of those critical opinions.

As I said - it's the first bite that really dooms you.

You think of yourself as SO original. The first non-parent to claim to all that you will NEVER spank or hit the hand of your child. Then, when the tike comes along you see the idiocy of your utiopian ideals.

That's not what I said. I never ever said you should NEVER use force against a child - only never offensively.

Even Buddhist monks smack the other monks to with a stick to redirect them to pure conscienceness. I'm sure in your mind that abuse too. And, you can add that one to your examples of adults smacking other adults. See if anybody will buy into your theory. I'd go with the monk over you everytime.

I could write a thick book criticizing Buddhist monks if I were so inclined.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:20:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: abraxas (#96)

DANGER!!!!! Perhaps it would be more effective with five exclamation points.

I've already used a lot of exclamation points in my last post to Pat (hmmm, ever watch SNL?), so I'll try this on for size..

DANGER DANGER YOUNG CHILD DANGER DANGER


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:21:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: FormerLurker (#89)

A slap on the hand and a stern NO does not equate to "DANGER" or "Papa gonna hurt you real good". Electrocution IS a REAL danger, and may very well be lethal.

That would be defensive force. Probably preventable but sometimes necessary. On the other hand, using force as punishment is offensive force, and that is always wrong.

Again, you equate a toddler's mind with that of college educated adults. Are you retarded?

No, the college educated adults are retarded. That's why they are nearly at the level of a toddler.

There is a difference between an infant mind who CAN understand actions and consequences if taught correctly, and those who have lost the ability to do so. In those cases, physical or chemical restraint (in response to truly aggressive and violent behavior) is the only option. Confinement to "safe" rooms is required for people who would otherwise harm themselves or others. There is a difference between an infant mind who CAN understand actions and consequences if taught correctly, and those who have lost the ability to do so. In those cases, physical or chemical restraint (in response to truly aggressive and violent behavior) is the only option. Confinement to "safe" rooms is required for people who would otherwise harm themselves or others.

Pain ain't the only or the best way to learn or to teach.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:24:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: abraxas (#94)

I'll pass on that chapter if there is not aknowledgment of the blatant lie you stated about me re: child abuse. Own up to your lie, Patriot Henry.

You are a defender of child abuse who is now acting in a juvenile manner having been confronted with the ugly truth. Hitting kids in an offensive manner is abuse. Have you hit your kids to hurt them to coerce them? If so, you are a child abuser. Simple formula.

Will it help is I say "NOOOOOOOOO" in a voice filled with horror and fear? Do you think that will be effective? Sure doesn't work with tikes who would laugh at their father and keep on doing the same thing in hopes of getting the same silly response.

I'm sorry that your children are so stupid as to only be able to respond to brute force.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: FormerLurker (#99)

DANGER DANGER YOUNG CHILD DANGER DANGER

lol......might I suggest using black letters on bright yellow. Paste them all over the house, at any spot where DANGER!!!! might be lurking.

Great plan!! Kids love bright colors!! Maybe a big neon DRAINO sign where ever that might be placed in the household so that the little children stay away from there..........

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:30:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: FormerLurker, abraxas (#92)

Really, ole Pat should write a book on how to raise children, I'm sure it'd be a hit...

If I wanted to write a hit, I would write about why you should or should not hit your kid. If I wanted to actually write a book on the subject, I'd want to write about why you should and should not hit your kid. The nuance of this argument would be beyond both segments of the market. Having lost those who abuse their children by force and having lost those who abuse their children by the lack of discipline, I would only be able to sell to those who possess unusual amounts of reason and intellectual liberty, and the book would be sure to fail.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Patriot Henry (#101)

I'm sorry that your children are so stupid as to only be able to respond to brute force.

Egads, is insulting other parents' children also part of your stellar parenting plan?

It's not enough to spew lies about me, now you have to insult my children, eh? What a man. And you are telling me that I am acting in a "juvenile manner" to boot. Oh, the irony is so deep on this one I need some hip waders to crawl through your bovine excrement.

Sincerely, I hope you never have children. It's best for the gene pool and also best for the children. Actually, I pity you for the way that you act, the things that you say, the level of arrogance that makes you think you are an expect in an area you have NO experience with.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: abraxas, FormerLurker (#102)

lol......might I suggest using black letters on bright yellow. Paste them all over the house, at any spot where DANGER!!!! might be lurking.

Great plan!! Kids love bright colors!! Maybe a big neon DRAINO sign where ever that might be placed in the household so that the little children stay away from there..........

No, no, what you need is the biggest stick allowed by law so that you can "knock some sense" into the little children. Yep. That makes perfect sense. We'll hit the kids to keep them from being hurt.

That's why you keep kids away from guns by leaving razors open in front of the guns.

Very young children must always be kept in a safe closed space or under close supervision. Substituting proper precautions and judgment calls with hitting the child for your error is terrible parenting. Those old enough to comprehend the dangers and maintain control over their behavior may be punished in many ways other than violence should they fail to obey (not their parents), but the sensible standard dictated by the situation for their behavior.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:37:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Patriot Henry (#103)

I would only be able to sell to those who possess unusual amounts of reason and intellectual liberty, and the book would be sure to fail.

LOL!!! You couldn't even write the book, let alone find an idiot dumb enough to publish it, let alone find a moron beyond your own family to purchase it.

Delusions of granduer on a GRAND scale. Oh, and the notion that you have come up with an original idea in a completely saturated market is even funnier. Your arrogance has no limits.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:39:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Patriot Henry (#105)

Very young children must always be kept in a safe closed space or under close supervision.

What an original idea!! Lock them up in a padded sell until they are at least three, eh? Be an armed guard for your child to assist with fear development and massive insecurity.

Does your idiocy have no limits?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:42:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: abraxas (#104)

Egads, is insulting other parents' children also part of your stellar parenting plan?

It's not enough to spew lies about me, now you have to insult my children, eh? What a man. And you are telling me that I am acting in a "juvenile manner" to boot. Oh, the irony is so deep on this one I need some hip waders to crawl through your bovine excrement.

If the only thing that a person responds to is force, then there is an intellectual and or moral deficiency.

Sincerely, I hope you never have children. It's best for the gene pool and also best for the children. Actually, I pity you for the way that you act, the things that you say, the level of arrogance that makes you think you are an expect in an area you have NO experience with.

I am no expert. I am a judge, a critic, a prophet. Hitting kids is wrong. I really doubt your kids were so dull as only to respond to force. I'm sure the real cause was your lack of knowledge of other more viable options.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   19:44:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Patriot Henry (#101)

I'm sorry that your children are so stupid as to only be able to respond to brute force.

Your's probably won't live long enough to get to that point.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:44:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: abraxas (#107)

What an original idea!! Lock them up in a padded sell until they are at least three, eh? Be an armed guard for your child to assist with fear development and massive insecurity.

Maybe he could hire some cops to watch over them while he sleeps, in case they decide to get up in the middle of the night.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:45:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Patriot Henry (#103)

If I wanted to write a hit, I would write about why you should or should not hit your kid. If I wanted to actually write a book on the subject, I'd want to write about why you should and should not hit your kid. The nuance of this argument would be beyond both segments of the market.

Well Pat, I suggest you devote some time to that, go ahead and give it shot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-06-06   19:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Patriot Henry (#108)

I am no expert. I am a judge, a critic, a prophet.

Let me be the first to award you with the understatement of the day!

Now, do the right thing for the gene pool and keep your sperm at a safe distance from any and all vaginas. I'm sure that won't be a difficult task as women are running in the other direction in droves.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   19:48:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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