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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Source: townhall.com
URL Source: http://townhall.com/columnists/Mary ... r_issue_than_rights_of_a_child
Published: May 26, 2010
Author: Marybeth Hicks
Post Date: 2010-05-26 09:06:24 by Eric Stratton
Keywords: None
Views: 1323
Comments: 132

Threat to Parents' Rights a Bigger Issue than Rights of a Child
Marybeth Hicks
Wednesday, May 26, 2010

If you’re a parent, you’re probably too busy doing the day-to-day work of raising your children to worry about an international treaty that could actually undermine your authority over them.

But if you’ve ever insisted that your teenager drag himself out of bed on a Sunday morning to attend church with the family, or required him to find a part-time job to pay for the increase in your car insurance, or – heaven forbid – if you’ve ever spanked a young child for an act of willful disobedience, there are folks who’d like to override your parental judgment.

Folks like President Obama, in fact.

The issue of parental rights is at the heart of the ongoing debate over the US’s failure to ratify the UN’s Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC). Mr. Obama thinks it’s a travesty that the US and Somalia – a country not known as a beacon of human rights – are the only two nations that haven’t ratified this treaty. Not only does he support its intrusions into our national sovereignty on behalf of children, he’s openly embarrassed to be on the short list with Somalia.

Up to now, it’s been a worried American homeschool community that most vocally opposes the CRC. That’s because the treaty clearly places responsibility for the education of children in the hands of the federal government. Such a mandate would certainly threaten the freedom of states to allow, and of parents to choose, homeschooling as an option to educate their children.

But it’s not just homeschooling parents who ought to be nervous about the CRC. We all should because the language of the treaty – which would supersede all American law other than the Constitution – radically changes the authority structure between parents, children and the state. In short, in line after line, it applies the standard of “the best interests of the child” to determine what’s permissible and what isn’t.

For example, the treaty creates "the right of the child to freedom of thought, conscience and religion." So if your child doesn’t want to go to a religious school, the law would favor his preference, not your desire to instill your faith.

It prohibits "arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy," which means you’d better not snoop in your son’s pockets while sorting the laundry. This could literally be illegal, and too bad if you find something to set off your parental alarm.

In fact, in Scotland, a CRC nation, a pamphlet for Scottish children explaining how they are helped by the treaty says, “In Scotland, the law recognises that your parents should normally be the people who care for you, if it’s the best thing for you.”

That’s very different from a provision that might say, “You have the right to the protection and care of your parents and can only be removed from your family if you are the victim of abuse or neglect.” The reason it doesn’t read this way is because that’s not what the CRC intends.

And who decides what’s “the best thing”? Take a guess.

It makes sense that the US stands nearly alone in refusing to ratify this treaty, since we live in the safest, most prosperous, most desirable country in which to be a child.

The CRC makes sense in places where girls can be sold into marriage at age 10, or where children are routinely victims of the sex trades, or of child labor abuse.

But in the US, the only logical reason to sign the CRC is to expand, through that new “international order” the president mentioned this past weekend, the role of the federal government into the daily lives and decisions of American parents and families.

Sen. Jim DeMint (R-SC) has introduced S.R. 519, opposing ratification of the CRC. He hopes to find 34 co-sponsors and thereby signal to the president that there’s no need to send the treaty to the Senate for advice and consent since it wouldn’t pass. This is the end-run play; the game winner is a Parental Rights Amendment to the Constitution.

It’s a good time to call a Senator or two and encourage them to join in co-sponsoring Sen. DeMint’s resolution.

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#26. To: abraxas (#24)

Look, Patriot Henry, you raise our kids as you see fit and I'll raise mine as I see fit. The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13....that's why those years are so difficult. Kids have this new cognitive ability but they have no applicable experience to apply to experiences.

None of that is a good reason to allow parents to hurt their kids as they see fit, since most of those parents (despite being well over 12-13) do not have the capacity for reason.

You really think it's okay to use a board larger than a child to beat the child?

how about spanking 1 day olds for crying? That is permitted under the current laws. That's cool by you that people raise their kids like that?

Most of us have been spanked as a child and do not view our parents as child abusers for it. In fact, when a situation called for spanking......I always FINALLY learned my lesson.

Perhaps if we didn't stifle kids intellects they would be able to learn through more sophisticated means at a younger age.

Your solution is to REASON with them, even when 10 time-outs fails to get your point across.

There are many ways and many options. I do realize that most kids won't respond to reason as I did. While the use of moderate pain to prevent a harm is the result of the child and or parent being stupid, it is reasonable. However, it is not reasonable to allow parents to hurt their kids for any reason in any way so long as it doesn't break their bones or necessitate stitches or emergency surgery.

Don't quit your day job to preach parenting techniques.....

I won't - make sure you don't quit your day job to advocate parents hurting their kids "BECAUSE I SAID SO".

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:00:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: abraxas (#25)

Gee, could up pump up the melodrama a bit more? Even your hypotheticals are ridiculous for a person who claims to have a firm grasp on reason.

Many parents are stupid, insane, or otherwise incompetent and they create situations which are melodramatic and dramatic for no good reason.

The only thing y'all have done with the situations I have posited is to ignore them. You do the exact same thing with the real life equivalents. You ignore them. You remain ignorant and cover your ears and your eyes and pretend that the only use of pain compliance is moderate, reasonable, and judiciously executed by a caring loving parent.

Why do y'all have to ignore the real world applications of parental pain compliance? Is it because you actually hurt your kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner, or because your parents did that to you, or because you are so naive and innocent you just can't imagine how horrible and stupid other people are?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:06:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: FormerLurker (#21)

Again, your irrational thoughts based upon your own abusive parent's irrational actions leads you to equate a slap on the hand with a baseball bat across the back.

No, it's the fact that hitting kids with a board bigger than a baseball bat is permitted in Ohio for teachers even.

Why are you in denial about the reality of "spanking"/hurting kids?

I'm not equating those two things - but since you only acknowledge the slap on the hand situation while ignoring that the beating with a stick is not only permitted and practiced in some situations it is also paid for by taxbux - you sure seem to be.

The average home is FILLED with dangers, be it a stove, a stairwell, windows, and a zillion other things that lie in wait. Unless of course you think a child should be locked up in a padded room 24/7, or strapped into a chair from which he can't escape, the average child can and WILL find things that can pose a danger and cause him harm.

Yep. And they will either learn from the parent or from the danger. If they aren't smart enough to learn by reason or emotion from the parent, or figure out from the danger, then they ain't gonna connect the pain with the problem.

As far as outlets, that was an example, but forks are pretty easy to find, and outlet covers DO come off, and are especially easy to access if the child pulls out a lamp from a socket and decides to probe it with some metal object, whether it be a fork, a paper clip, or anything else he might be able to find.

And again, so the kid is a kid, so you hurt them? That makes sense - if you are a barbarian.

Perhaps you should just shut up and get yourself a vasectomy, never date women with kids, and that way you'll never have to worry about it.

Even if I have a child holding a fork next to an outlet I won't be worried about it, and I also won't be hurting the child. I most especially won't be using the full range of "parental control" that you so blindly defend without considering it's nature.

Situation 7. Child gets a C+ in math instead of all Bs as required by the parental unit. Parental unit retrieves the beating stick (no larger than permitted by govt statute) and then uses it to make the child feel a great deal of pain while suffering no lasting injuries.

Why should that be permitted? Why should parents be allowed to inflict pain on their kids only "BECAUSE I SAID SO"?

There are two good reasons. The parents are barbarians - or because they are training their kids to complacently accept whatever irrational rules and punishments the state imposes no matter how cruel stupid and insane they are.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: abraxas (#24)

The cognitive ability to REASON doesn't actually come about in the human species until a kid is 12-13...

So says Piaget and other "experts". I disagree. I have not infrequently seen young children exercise superior abilities of reason, judgment, and discernment than adults 20-80+.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:11:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Patriot Henry (#27)

Many parents are stupid, insane, or otherwise incompetent and they create situations which are melodramatic and dramatic for no good reason.

And this you know from absolutely no personal experience?

Furthmore, you have no idea what I do or do not do in real life situations. Your entire premise is completely unsubstantiated. Don't tell me what I ignore or do not ignore. Speaking of ignorant of the facts......let me remind you that you have no parenting experience--nada, zip, zilch.

Where did you pull this "parental pain compliance" diatriabe from? Do you honestly believe that parents "hurt their kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner"? Really? Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage.

Please, for the good of the gene pool.......don't have children.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:17:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Patriot Henry (#29)

So says Piaget and other "experts". I disagree. I have not infrequently seen young children exercise superior abilities of reason, judgment, and discernment than adults 20-80+.

I'm quite certain that you have as much experience with middle schoolers as you have had parenting--nada, zip, zilch.

I think your experience with children in general has been even less than infrequent. And, your less than infrequent observasations really don't stand up to the work of theorists who spent their lives researching the matter or people what actually spend time parenting or teaching kids of all ages day in and day out.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#30)

And this you know from absolutely no personal experience?

I do know that from my own life. There is also ample statistical and scientific research documenting that many parents are idiots, madmen, fools, hypocrites, and otherwise unable to use pain in an appropriate manner for a parent, particularly under the incredibly broad powers awarded to them by the state.

Furthmore, you have no idea what I do or do not do in real life situations. Your entire premise is completely unsubstantiated.

My premise is substantiated. Many parents hurt their kids in ways that should be punished by time in a cage.

Where did you pull this "parental pain compliance" diatriabe from?

I was inspired by watching the knuckle draggers, the hooligans with younger hooligans, the fools, the idiots, etc.

Do you honestly believe that parents "hurt their kids for no good reason in a barbaric and savage manner"? Really? Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage.

You are FUCKING WRONG. You really believe that EVERY SINGLE TIME a parent hits their kid it's for a good reason? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

If you were a kid you would be naive and it would be cute. At your age it's ignorance and it's fucking ugly.

Wake the fuck up - this ain't Mr. Rogers fucking neighborhood!

Please, for the good of the gene pool.......don't have children.

Right - the one person who has the intelligence and moral fiber not to assault the weak and defenseless shouldn't reproduce, but the masses of morons, psychos, and other incompetents should, as they are willing to hurt their own children because their idiocy, insanity, or foolishness says so.

What the fuck is your malfunction?

Maybe it's a guilty conscience from all the times you hurt your kids for no good reason or no reason at all? Maybe you remember them screaming, crying, perhaps bleeding and you have to justify that?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:27:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: abraxas (#31)

I'm quite certain that you have as much experience with middle schoolers as you have had parenting--nada, zip, zilch.

I was actually referring to kids as young as 4-5 years of age. They often can outthink people who have gotten PhDs, as they haven't gone through the process of being dumbed down, indoctrinated, and having their soul, curiosity, and imagination killed.

I think your experience with children in general has been even less than infrequent. And, your less than infrequent observasations really don't stand up to the work of theorists who spent their lives researching the matter or people what actually spend time parenting or teaching kids of all ages day in and day out.

That is the fallacy of authority. The "experts" are a bunch of statists- as are the teachers and almost all of the parents. Is it any surprise that those people who are subjected to being controlled by an arbitrary and capricious system run by the insane and the idiotic (and whom are often those very insane and idiotic enforcers of that system) happen to believe in the convenient neat simpleton theories that are conducive to insane and idiotic people controlling their kids by an arbitrary and capricious system?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:37:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Patriot Henry (#32)

You are FUCKING WRONG. You really believe that EVERY SINGLE TIME a parent hits their kid it's for a good reason? WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?

If you were a kid you would be naive and it would be cute. At your age it's ignorance and it's fucking ugly.

As a parent, and a friend of MANY other parents, I can state that in my experiences I have NEVER seen a parent slap a hand or spank a child for no good reason. NOT ONCE. Yes, I'm sure there are parents out there who abuse their power, like a liberal yelling at the top of their lungs cursing at others on the interneet.

Stop spitting on your monitor and get control of yourself. I can see how you would parent. Yell and curse at the kids while you play holier than thou. Yeah, that REALLY gets your point across......not.

When you can't muster up an intelligent commentary and your child refuses to reason are you going to say, "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MALFUNCTION?" Just call those who don't agree with you fucking morons......use that fuck adjective liberally because it's just so darn effective. (eyes rolling)

You are verbally assaulting on this thread, yet you want to wag your finger all around at people you do not know and have absolutely no knowledge about. Astounding really. What happened to reason?

I have no guilty conscience......lol. You're killin' me here with this liberal idiocy. Again, for the good of the gene pool and to keep the instances of verbal abuse against children down--don't have any kids.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Patriot Henry (#33)

First, thinking and REASONING aren't the same thing.

Yes, all the world is wrong and only Patriot Henry holds the torch of truth. Get a load of yourself......a pantload.

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

Rather than spewing insults at parents and spewing idiocy, why don't you get some therapy for the damage done by your hippie parents?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   13:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: abraxas (#34)

As a parent, and a friend of MANY other parents, I can state that in my experiences I have NEVER seen a parent slap a hand or spank a child for no good reason. NOT ONCE. Yes, I'm sure there are parents out there who abuse their power, like a liberal yelling at the top of their lungs cursing at others on the interneet.

And all you've seen is all there is to see? Nope.

Stop spitting on your monitor and get control of yourself. I can see how you would parent. Yell and curse at the kids while you play holier than thou. Yeah, that REALLY gets your point across......not.

Not much will get a point across to folks who have no problem with insane parents hurting their kids with a large board for absolutely no reason..or any of the other abuses that routinely happen by the means you defend.

When you can't muster up an intelligent commentary and your child refuses to reason are you going to say, "WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR MALFUNCTION?" Just call those who don't agree with you fucking morons......use that fuck adjective liberally because it's just so darn effective. (eyes rolling)

Reason won't work with you, now will it? Maybe I should come over there and smack you one. That will work right? That's the language you speak?

You are verbally assaulting on this thread, yet you want to wag your finger all around at people you do not know and have absolutely no knowledge about. Astounding really. What happened to reason?

I have enough knowledge about you to judge you - you are willing to blindly support the use of pain by parents without considering the actual range of natures of parents, kids, and pain compliance.

You are willing to defend child abuse. What good will reason do with the likes of you?

Also, I was hungry and my blood sugar dropped. I apologize for the profanity and shocking lack of manners.

I have no guilty conscience......lol. You're killin' me here with this liberal idiocy. Again, for the good of the gene pool and to keep the instances of verbal abuse against children down--don't have any kids.

Right, so I should not have kids lest I yell at them in an inappropriate manner, but it's okay for others to have kids and for them to hit/hurt their kids in an inappropriate manner?

Gotcha. Child abuse is fine so long as it's done with the fist, the belt, the boot, the elbow, the board. My mind is not swayed.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: abraxas (#35)

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

So the way to teach kids to be responsible for their actions is through pain?

I'm not a "liberal". My opposition to your barbaric parental practices doesn't mean I'm a "softie". You say I am one of those monsters - but they would say I am one of you because I defend the slapping of kids hands to keep the hands off the stove. My opposition to parents hurting their kids because they are unfit doesn't make me a "liberal".

Rather than spewing insults at parents and spewing idiocy, why don't you get some therapy for the damage done by your hippie parents?

What would you suggest, a dominatrix with a belt?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   13:59:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: abraxas (#35)

Frankly, I believe that the reason young people today can't even wipe their own asses for themselves after graduating high school is because far to many liberals, like you, are having kids and raising them to be teat sucking welfare recipients, rather than adults who are accountable for their actions and have an iota of control over their emotions.

That is only part of the problem. The corresponding part is that the "conservatives" have kids and raise them to be rule following obeying compliant well trained service monkeys who love and defend the state, that monopoly on offensive force that imposes irrational rules and senseless standards upon others. The liberals support the welfare state. The conservatives support the warfare state. Their parenting styles reflect their statism. The correct way for adults and children is not "no rules" nor is it "arbitrary rules backed by force". While you are correct to oppose the former, you are wrong to support the latter - and by supporting parental pain compliance without qualifying a reasonable standard you support the worst creeps out there.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   14:07:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Patriot Henry (#36)

Reason won't work with you, now will it?

Right, so I should not have kids lest I yell at them in an inappropriate manner, but it's okay for others to have kids and for them to hit/hurt their kids in an inappropriate manner.

I have enough knowledge about you to judge you - you are willing to blindly support the use of pain by parents without considering the actual range of natures of parents, kids, and pain compliance.

I have yet to witness any reasoning from you. Try more use of fuck in your posts because that's real effective. Are you going to use the blood sugar excuse on your kids too? I think they will be as willing to except that excuse as I am.

I am for being accountable for my actions and I teach my children to be accountable for theirs. Parenting is about setting boundaries. A spanking isn't about an abuse of power it is about teaching a child that there are consequences for actions when time outs are not successful in teaching the lesson.

A reasoning person would actually be able to articulate the difference between slapping a kid on the hand or a swat on the butt and child abuse. A reasoning person would clearly be able to see that verbal abuse is actually just as destructive as spanking for no good reason. Yelling is simply an inability for a parent to control their emotions.......yes, I'm guilty of yelling at times and I honestly feel more guilt over that than following through on a spanking after time outs failed to deter the behaviour that required discipline.

I blindly support nothing. I actually have experience in this arena of using a range of behavior modifications with children, with positive results. You, on the other hand, have none.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:10:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Patriot Henry (#38)

you are wrong to support the latter - and by supporting parental pain compliance without qualifying a reasonable standard you support the worst creeps out there.

I have offered you a reasonable standard. I have also deliniated the creeps from the well-intentioned parents. You should do the same. I know, it's tough to admit that all parents do not fit into your utopian ideals that have yet to collide with the realities of parenting, but that is the first step toward reasoning in this discussion.

According to you, all parents are doing everything wrong and you are the sole voice of truth regarding the topic of parenting despite having no experience in this matter whatsoever. Admit it, you are woefully underqualified to judge parents and offer parenting tips.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:19:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Eric Stratton (#0)

All your chirrun are belong to me!

For it is not the wolf or any of the other beasts that would join the contest in any noble danger, but rather a good man. — Aristotle, Politics, Book IIX

Turtle  posted on  2010-06-06   14:24:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: abraxas (#40)

Has anyone on this thread remarked on the coincidence of the belief spanking is bad for the child, and use of Ritalin as a replacement?

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   14:26:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Turtle (#41)

I saw this bumper sticker a couple of years ago.

My child beat the shit out of your child at school today.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   14:27:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Patriot Henry (#37)

So the way to teach kids to be responsible for their actions is through pain?

A kid will forget a spanking in an hour or two......but they will remember hateful words yelled at them for the rest of their lives.

Like I stated previously, a spanking is not about inflicting pain it is about teaching a child that there is a consequence for actions. I don't even necessarily advocate for it, but if a parent states that a spanking is the consequence, then follow through is crucial. Generally, a child who knows that the parent is serious, not just yelling again and again and again, about following through on disciple, then a kid will self correct prior to spanking.

On the other hand, if a parent has no follow through, then the child will continue to undermine the parental authority even when the child could hurt themselves or others by their actions. In almost all cases, a child that continues to misbehave without consequences ends up hurting themselves as others do not want to be around that child as the behaviour problems move from the home into the outer world. Worse, the child doesn't learn to be accountable for their actions. Believe it or not, children WANT and NEED boundaries.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:30:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Ragin1 (#43)

My child beat the shit out of your child at school today.

"My child is home-schooled and twice as smart as your honor student."

For it is not the wolf or any of the other beasts that would join the contest in any noble danger, but rather a good man. — Aristotle, Politics, Book IIX

Turtle  posted on  2010-06-06   14:32:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Ragin1 (#42)

Has anyone on this thread remarked on the coincidence of the belief spanking is bad for the child, and use of Ritalin as a replacement?

No, but I consider Ritalin replacement to be child abuse. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:32:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: abraxas (#46)

Ritalin replacement to be child abuse.

So do I. I think it inhibits the child's intellectual growth. I also think using a tv as a pacifier or babysitter to be child abuse. I don't believe spanking is child abuse. Spanking and beating are 2 different things entirely.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   14:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Ragin1 (#47)

I agree with your post in its entirety!!

No cable or even regular tv stations in my home. I have a few friends who actually think THAT is child abuse because my kids do not have the History Channel or Discovery, even after telling them you can pick up great educational documentaries at the library.

My kids never whine for items marketed to kids on tv. It's wonderful. I do not want their preferences determined by commercials. Plus, they love to read and listen to music. Occassionally, they watch a DVD for a treat.

It always amazes me how people refuse to admit a TV addiction. If a person drinks for six hours a day, that's an alcoholic, but a person who parks in front of the tube for six hours a day sees no problem and just can't seem to figure out why obesity is on the rise.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   14:45:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: abraxas (#39)

I have yet to witness any reasoning from you. Try more use of fuck in your posts because that's real effective. Are you going to use the blood sugar excuse on your kids too? I think they will be as willing to except that excuse as I am.

Well, if they don't accept that I can just hurt them until they do, right?

A spanking isn't about an abuse of power it is about teaching a child that there are consequences for actions when time outs are not successful in teaching the lesson.

It is an abuse of power. The lesson is "Might makes right".

I blindly support nothing. I actually have experience in this arena of using a range of behavior modifications with children, with positive results. You, on the other hand, have none.

I've watched kids before. Never hit one, never needed to. With the sole exception of immediate danger I've also never seen or heard of a situation where it was necessary.

In addition, there are quite a few non"liberal" folks who manage to raise kids without hurting them. There is no evidence that it is a necessary tool for parenting. There is ample evidence it lends itself to abuse. It really is a tool of primates and primitives, and of course their sophisticated cousins the psychologists, psychiatrists, and statists who treat human beings as Pavlov treated his dogs.

If I have children, I plan to raise them to be civilized human beings. If I change my mind and decide to raise them as I would raise an animal in a behavioral science experiment, I will be using some of your techniques.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:28:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: abraxas (#40)

I have offered you a reasonable standard.

I might have missed the first time. I might have missed it the second time. I just don't see it. Where is this "reasonable standard"? I did see you post this "Slapping a hand and a swat on the butt is never for no good reason and it is neither barbaric or savage. " in which you defend parental pain compliance as never being without a good reason and never being barbaric or savage - an awful broad defense of child abuse.

I know, it's tough to admit that all parents do not fit into your utopian ideals that have yet to collide with the realities of parenting, but that is the first step toward reasoning in this discussion.

I'm not a utopian idealist. That's why I would favor allowing some child abuse. People are stupid and insane and they are going to raise their kids in stupid and insane ways. There should be a line distinguishing between those who are moderately so who go beyond that which is wrong but tolerable.

According to you, all parents are doing everything wrong and you are the sole voice of truth regarding the topic of parenting despite having no experience in this matter whatsoever. Admit it, you are woefully underqualified to judge parents and offer parenting tips.

No, according to me the state gives an incredible power to all parents many of whom abuse it - and you and almost all other defenders of child abuse refuse to acknowledge this symbiotic relationship between the state and child abusers merely because you happen to benefit from the lack of state restrictions on your judgment. Kind of like an adult speed head who gets a prescription for speed for "ADHD" and who has no problems with kids being given speed by the state or their parents via the doctors.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:38:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Patriot Henry (#49)

It is an abuse of power. The lesson is "Might makes right".

I've watched kids before. Never hit one, never needed to. With the sole exception of immediate danger I've also never seen or heard of a situation where it was necessary.

No, it isn't. It's about making choices and facing consequences for the choices one makes. Often, it IS to keep them away from dangers, as examples have clearly articulated on this thread.

Again, I don't view a slap on the hand or a spanking as hurting kids. Hurting them is providing no boundaries and allowing the go through life without understanding the simple lesson that there are consequences for one's actions.

Okay, you provide this "ample evidence" that spanking leads to abuse. Frankly, I think you are attempting to blow smoke up my butt.

My children are wonderfully civilized. Amazing, considering I'm such an abusive barbarian. lol

Oh please, watching kids isn't parenting, Patriot Henry. And you don't see any problem with using obsenities to make your point and calling others names. Behaviours I will not tolerate in my kids. I suppose you think that washing a mouth out with soap is abuse too........to bad your folks didn't try that with you, I've heard other parents claim positive results with that method.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   15:40:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Ragin1, abraxas (#42)

Has anyone on this thread remarked on the coincidence of the belief spanking is bad for the child, and use of Ritalin as a replacement?

It makes perfect sense to replace pain compliance/torture with drugs. Both are barbaric behavior modifications favored by sociopaths who like to treat people like animals.

My parents put my older brother on Ritalin. They had tried spanking first. It failed to control his behavior because he quickly seized control of the situation by forcing them to spank him. Neither method will work on any reasonably intelligent person except by destroying them in part or in whole.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:42:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Patriot Henry (#49)

If I have children, I plan to raise them to be civilized human beings. If I change my mind and decide to raise them as I would raise an animal in a behavioral science experiment,

Sincerely it will be you who raises the child in a behavioral science experiment.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   15:42:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Patriot Henry (#52)

It makes perfect sense to replace pain compliance/torture with drugs.

Of course it does when you are perfectly willing to put your own child into a behavioral science experiment.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   15:45:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Patriot Henry (#50)

There should be a line distinguishing between those who are moderately so who go beyond that which is wrong but tolerable.

There are TONS of lines in every state. Go read your state statutes.

Yeah, that's really solved the problems hasn't it. More laws will fix it all, Nanny stater. Why, the state has done so good with dispensing speed to kiddies as you point out that they surely should have more clear laws on child abuse. Actually, they already do, but nanny staters rarely read what is already on the books regarding any issue, even if they know next to nothing about it and DEMAND more laws as a fix. Eyes rolling.

Are you going to weigh in on tv as a babysitter being child abuse?

How about YELLING and verbal abuse, no comment on that?

How about we put a cop in every home?

Oh, and are YOU going to pay for that?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   15:46:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Patriot Henry (#52)

My parents put my older brother on Ritalin. They had tried spanking first. It failed to control his behavior because he quickly seized control of the situation by forcing them to spank him. Neither method will work on any reasonably intelligent person except by destroying them in part or in whole

This explains SO much. Your parents tried spanking after they had already shown your brother THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES. Gee, I can't figure out why THAT method didn't work.

I would argue that the method failed because your parents WEREN'T CONSISTENT, opting to treat the kid like a ping pong ball in a behavior modification experiment. How old was the boy when they opted to actually do something? Next stop Ritalin. I imagine you and your brother ate crap processed foods and spent more time with the tv than your parents too.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   15:52:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: abraxas (#44)

A kid will forget a spanking in an hour or two......but they will remember hateful words yelled at them for the rest of their lives.

That explains all of the people who talk about the times Papa would break out the belt, or Mama with the spoon, etc etc etc. They may or may not support it, but they almost always have that same sad submissive look on their faces.

Like I stated previously, a spanking is not about inflicting pain it is about teaching a child that there is a consequence for actions.

I'm familiar with Pavlovian conditioning. When inflicting pain is the means for teaching - it is an essential and defining part of the lesson. The lesson you are teaching is "If you don't obey authority figures they will hurt you". Great lesson you teach your kids.

On the other hand, if a parent has no follow through, then the child will continue to undermine the parental authority even when the child could hurt themselves or others by their actions.

Only if that child is stupid, insane, or a bad person. Kids can listen to reason at a very young age. They aren't that stupid, insane, or bad. Teaching them to do the right thing is much more effective at raising good people than is teaching them to obey.

In almost all cases, a child that continues to misbehave without consequences ends up hurting themselves as others do not want to be around that child as the behaviour problems move from the home into the outer world.

There are many other consequences available to a parent other than pain. A pattern of misbehaving is a reflection of either poor character (can't do nothing about that) or a failure of the parents to impose a rational system of rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior predicated upon reason and the education and explanation of reason and the system and the rules.

Worse, the child doesn't learn to be accountable for their actions. Believe it or not, children WANT and NEED boundaries.

Boundaries are good and fine. So is holding kids and people accountable for their actions. Why don't kids want to be accountable for their actions? Perhaps it's because rather than suffering the consequences of their actions they will be forcibly restrained by a stronger human being who will then torture them into submission. Ever think about that?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   15:53:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Patriot Henry (#57)

Only if that child is stupid, insane, or a bad person. Kids can listen to reason at a very young age.

a stronger human being who will then torture them into submission.

So, is that your stellar analysis for your brother? Did he listen to reason? No. Why not? Was it supid or insane or simply that he's a bad person?

A patten of misbehavior is a child who wants boundaries. Simple as that. Kids do want to be held accountable for their actions and they need to know when their actions are not acceptable--hence the repeat of the behavior until the lesson is learned.

Torture them.....lol. You're drowning me in melodramatics here.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:02:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Patriot Henry (#57)

Patriot Henry, on this topic you are so overwhelmed you are contradicting your own arguments. Re-read your last arguments please, and really think about it.

Ragin1  posted on  2010-06-06   16:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: abraxas (#51)

Again, I don't view a slap on the hand or a spanking as hurting kids. Hurting them is providing no boundaries and allowing the go through life without understanding the simple lesson that there are consequences for one's actions.

And so frequently hitting them for no good reason isn't hurting them? Sure. Right. Hitting your kids because you had a bad day at work doesn't hurt them. Yep. That's a perfectly valid reason. Oh wait, that never happens because you don't see it in your little part of the world?

My children are wonderfully civilized. Amazing, considering I'm such an abusive barbarian.

Do they believe it is proper for a large man to hit a little kid? If so they ain't so civilized.

And you don't see any problem with using obsenities to make your point and calling others names.

I do. I just don't give a damn if I'm rude to people who hit children. I ain't saying it's right to be rude, because it ain't.

Behaviours I will not tolerate in my kids.

But you won't say a word when they treat a toddler in a way that would land them in jail if it wasn't their kid?

I suppose you think that washing a mouth out with soap is abuse too........to bad your folks didn't try that with you, I've heard other parents claim positive results with that method.

Yes, that is abuse. It's physical torture. It's barbaric. It's stupid. It's insane. How about a live wire on the tongue? That's perfectly fine "parental control" eh?

Why would my parents have needed to treat me like a piece of dirty laundry?

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   16:05:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Patriot Henry (#57)

That explains all of the people who talk about the times Papa would break out the belt, or Mama with the spoon, etc etc etc. They may or may not support it, but they almost always have that same sad submissive look on their faces.

These are people who suffer victim mentality. It's always somebody else's fault that they are screwed up in some way. Must be mommy and daddy to blame, even when they are 45 and standing in the welfare line, knocking on mommy and daddy's door to take them in again.

When mommy and daddy finally learn the value of actually saying no to their little darlings, then mommy and daddy are the mean ebil villians who are the root of all their problems.

Even recently this daddy hit me excuse was used to justify cheating on a spouse multiple times.........I suppose you bought that idiocy hook, line and stinker.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:06:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: abraxas (#55)

There are TONS of lines in every state. Go read your state statutes.

I have read some statutes from some states. Often they permit child abuse. I for one think torture is child abuse. Opinions vary.

" Yeah, that's really solved the problems hasn't it. More laws will fix it all, Nanny stater. Why, the state has done so good with dispensing speed to kiddies as you point out that they surely should have more clear laws on child abuse. Actually, they already do, but nanny staters rarely read what is already on the books regarding any issue, even if they know next to nothing about it and DEMAND more laws as a fix. Eyes rolling. "

I would not expect the state to do it. Fewer laws and simpler ones at that would be preferable to more laws.

Are you going to weigh in on tv as a babysitter being child abuse?

It is child abuse. Absolutely. It is not criminal though. Assault is a crime. Poor decision making is not.

How about YELLING and verbal abuse, no comment on that?

Also abuse, but again not criminal.

How about we put a cop in every home?

Oh, and are YOU going to pay for that?

No and no.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   16:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Patriot Henry (#60) (Edited)

And so frequently hitting them for no good reason isn't hurting them?

Do they believe it is proper for a large man to hit a little kid? If so they ain't so civilized.

But you won't say a word when they treat a toddler in a way that would land them in jail if it wasn't their kid?

Why would my parents have needed to treat me like a piece of dirty laundry?

Who is "freguently hitting them for no good reason"? Who is hitting them over a bad day at work?

I'm not a large man. In fact, I'm completely lacking in the testical department. And, like I stated before, my kids are wonderfully civilized. In fact, I often am complemented on how well behaved and what good manners my children have.

Who are "they" and what is the infraction? No, I won't send parents to jail for slapping a kid on the hand or spanking them, not even for washing their mouths out with soap.

Perhaps, it would help you communicate without the overuse of the word fuck.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:13:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: abraxas (#56)

This explains SO much. Your parents tried spanking after they had already shown your brother THERE ARE NO BOUNDARIES. Gee, I can't figure out why THAT method didn't work.

No, they showed him that there were boundaries. The boundaries though were arbitrary, irrational, pointless, and not communicated to him.

I would argue that the method failed because your parents WEREN'T CONSISTENT, opting to treat the kid like a ping pong ball in a behavior modification experiment.

Consistency would make the method work, but since the method is appropriate to training a dog, I question the validity of applying that method to a human being.

How old was the boy when they opted to actually do something?

I think he might have been 2 or so when they first started to hit him as prescribed by society. After that failed for 7 or so years that's when they switched to the drugs.

Next stop Ritalin. I imagine you and your brother ate crap processed foods and spent more time with the tv than your parents too.

Wrong and wrong. No processed foods and only educational television.

Patriot Henry  posted on  2010-06-06   16:15:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Patriot Henry (#62)

I have read some statutes from some states. Often they permit child abuse. I for one think torture is child abuse. Opinions vary.

I would not expect the state to do it. Fewer laws and simpler ones at that would be preferable to more laws.

So basically, the laws should be rewritten according to your personal definitions and beliefs. Yeah, that's a solution.

So, who would do it? You?

Where's the reasoning in your position?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-06-06   16:15:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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