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Title: Police arrest Census taker - Property Rights ~vs~ Federal Rights
Source:
West Hawaii
URL Source: http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/articles/2010/05/29/local/local02.txt
Published: Jun 1, 2010
Author: John Burnett And Peter Sur
Post Date: 2010-06-01 19:10:36 by James Deffenbach
Keywords: None
Views: 298
Comments: 23
A battle is brewing between the state and federal governments over a Census taker arrested in Puna for misdemeanor trespassing. The U.S. Attorney's office filed papers Thursday in federal court in Honolulu to take the case of 57-year-old Russell Haas out of 3rd District Court. That will pit the feds against local prosecutors. "I'm looking to have it kept in state court," county Deputy Prosecutor Christopher Bridges said Friday. Haas pleaded not guilty on April 8 to second-degree trespassing. He was arrested March 10 at 12:30 p.m. in in Hawaiian Acres, after a resident Haas says was an off-duty police officer allegedly refused to cooperate with the Census and called Puna police. "When I opened his gate and walked in ... he stepped out of his garage and said, 'Please get off my property,'" Haas said Friday. Haas said he identified himself as a Census worker, and the man again requested for him to leave. "I said, 'Can I please just give you the Census (form)?' And he didn't want it," Haas said. "He said he was going to call the cops, so I said, 'OK, fine.' We'd been trained to wait by the gate for the cops to get there and hand them the forms that we would have handed to the guy. The police then hand it to them and tell them, 'It's the law, do it.' Then everybody would walk away and it would be fine. That was what I expected. "But when I was standing next to the gate talking to the guy, he pulls something out ...and out pops this little tin shield, and it falls and clatters on his driveway. And I realized he was telling me he was a cop." "Then I went, 'Dude, if you're a cop, you know that you have to be in the Census. You have to be because you've sworn an oath to uphold and obey (the law).'" Haas, who is a former New Jersey police officer, said while he and the man were talking across the gate, police "pulled up behind me, suddenly." "I handed them the Census and expected them to hand them to this guy and say, 'That's it,'" Haas said. "They walked over and talked to him for a minute or two, then walked back to me ... and then stuffed it into my chest, and said, 'He doesn't have to enter your Census. He doesn't have to enter any Census. He doesn't have to fill out any of your forms or answer any of your questions. And if I were you, I'd get into my car and get the hell outta here, right now.' "I turned to him and said, 'Or what?' And he said, 'I'll lock you up.'" And I turned back and said, 'So make your case.' They threw the cuffs on me, took me down to Keaau Police Station and I waited there until my daughter bailed me out." Haas' bail was $25. According to the Census Bureau website, people are required by federal law to respond to the census. Title 13 of the U.S. Code says adults who refuse or willfully neglect to complete the questionnaire can be fined up to $100, and people who refuse to answer questions posed by census takers can be fined up to $5,000. The identity of the man who refused to answer Haas' questions wasn't immediately known.
Poster Comment: Posted on LP by Happy2BMe-OnLP. JoeSnuffy made a good comment on it: #3. To: Happy2BMe-OnLP (#0) he did "respond" to the census he told the errand boy to "stuff it"! the census was responded to... JoeSnuffy posted on 2010-06-01 15:37:46 ET Reply Trace
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#1. To: James Deffenbach (#0)
This afternoon in comes a call from a census-cretin to get information about a tenant who had moved out two weeks ago. Things did not go well - I asked CC to call back tomorrow when I could possibly be in a better frame of mind to deal with her weak bs.
Whether the property owner/off-duty police officer can (or should) be fined for failure to participate in the census is a totally separate issue, both morally and legally, from whether the census worker is guilty of tresspassing. He most definitely is guilty.
#2. To: James Deffenbach (#0)
 | To paraphrase Einstein, "Government should be as powerless as possible, but not so powerless that it cannot perform its sole function (the protection of individual rights.)" |
#3. To: Lod (#1)
I would have told her that I did not answer questions about other people over the phone to people who claim to work for the government. No way they can prove who they are, is there? And if she offered to come by I would tell her I was much too busy to answer their questions.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#4. To: sourcery (#2)
Sure he was. He opened a gate to another man's property uninvited. I call it trespassing.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#5. To: James Deffenbach (#3)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
#6. To: James Deffenbach (#0)
The Census taker's name (Haas) is Jewish "Jus sayin" ...
"Rebellion is natural when governments become "revolting. YOU only count when it's census or TAX time"
#7. To: Eric Stratton (#5)
I don't care if they leave mad just so long as they leave me alone.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#8. To: James Deffenbach (#7)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
#9. To: Eric Stratton (#8)
If they have nothing better to do with their time it would make you wonder why you need them, eh?
I like to think that marshall's have a little something more fucking important to do than to chase down people simply because a census taker said so.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#10. To: James Deffenbach (#3)
Thanks, that will be the plan for tomorrow. Appreciate the advice.
I would have told her that I did not answer questions about other people over the phone to people who claim to work for the government. No way they can prove who they are, is there? And if she offered to come by I would tell her I was much too busy to answer their questions.
#11. To: James Deffenbach (#4)
I think the law requires "No Trespassing" signs to be posted in order for it to be a Trespassing offense. Or the owner has to otherwise inform the person who may be on the property to leave and they refuse. The crux of it is that unless and until a person is told that a property is not to be entered or must be exited, it's not trespassing. We're talking here about land, not entering a home. From the description given, I think the census worker is not guilty, but it's only his side of the story. If he's guilty it's because he didn't immediately leave upon being ordered to the first time, or because a NT sign was posted. Without the NT sign the judge/jury would have to agree whatever delay in exiting was UNreasonable to convict.
Sure he was. He opened a gate to another man's property uninvited. I call it trespassing.
#12. To: Lod (#10)
Appreciate the advice. You are most welcome.
Thanks, that will be the plan for tomorrow.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#13. To: Pinguinite (#11)
Yeah, guess it depends some on whether he had any signs and whose story is most convincing. I would take the homeowners word over that of an intruder.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#14. To: James Deffenbach, 4 (#12)
farmtalknewspaper.com/are...aint-means-Keep-Out-in-Mo This is in effect for most all states.
Purple paint warning -
#15. To: Lod (#14)
Thanks, never heard of that one.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#16. To: James Deffenbach, 4, purple painters (#15)
It's true and real, please check it out for your state, and your property.
#17. To: Lod (#16)
Where I used to live requires signs unless it has changed very recently.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#18. To: James Deffenbach (#9)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
#19. To: Eric Stratton (#18)
True. It is never likely that a cop will be anywhere around to actually prevent you from getting mugged or killed. Mostly what they do is come and write the report after something bad already happened. And they won't get too excited about finding whoever did it unless you have connections or happen to be a "fellow ahole officer." But few people would ever need the "services" of a cop if the government would leave them alone and recognize their right to defend themselves.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#20. To: noone222 (#6)
"Jus sayin" ... Jus sayin right! Christ made us kings in this land, i.e. SOVEREIGNS, Rev. 5:9-10. What business does the Jewish CorpUSA, whose Great Seal bears the Number of the Beast [666 - "Satan On Our Dollar http://jesus-is-savior.com " ], have numbering God's servants, His sovereign kings, who do not want to be numbered by the Beast, but to "come out and be separate" . 2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? 16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 17Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 18And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. " bible.cc/2_corinthians/6-17.htm 1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.....7And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel...." "....Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary CHAPTER 21 1Ch 21:1-13. David Sins in Numbering the People. 1. Satan stood up against Israel-God, by withdrawing His grace at this time from David (see on [392]2Sa 24:1), permitted the tempter to prevail over him. As the result of this successful temptation was the entail of a heavy calamity as a punishment from God upon the people, it might be said that "Satan stood up against Israel." number Israel-In the act of taking the census of a people, there is not only no evil, but much utility. But numbering Israel-that people who were to become as the stars for multitude, implying a distrust of the divine promise, was a sin; and though it had been done with impunity in the time of Moses, at that enumeration each of the people had contributed "half a shekel towards the building of the tabernacle," that there might be no plague among them when he numbered them (Ex 30:12). Hence the numbering of that people was in itself regarded as an undertaking by which the anger of God could be easily aroused; but when the arrangements were made by Moses for the taking of the census, God was not angry because the people were numbered for the express purpose of the tax for the sanctuary, and the money which was thus collected ("the atonement money," Ex 30:16) appeased Him. Everything depended, therefore, upon the design of the census [Bertheau]. The sin of David numbering the people consisted in its being either to gratify his pride to ascertain the number of warriors he could muster for some meditated plan of conquest; or, perhaps, more likely still, to institute a regular and permanent system of taxation, which he deemed necessary to provide an adequate establishment for the monarchy, but which was regarded as a tyrannical and oppressive exaction-an innovation on the liberty of the people-a departure from ancient usage unbecoming a king of Israel....." bible.cc/1_chronicles/21-1.htm I wonder if that cop was a Christian who had seen the light?
The Census taker's name (Haas) is Jewish
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#21. To: James Deffenbach, 4 (#0)
justified use of deadly force -
#22. To: Lod (#21)
Sometimes it is justified, sometimes not. It is good to have video cams in the cops cars I guess and it is good for "subjects" and "citizens" to use them too. Just in case they want to beat you down without any real cause.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#23. To: James Deffenbach (#19)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
"You've got to put right and wrong above legal and illegal. Because when tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty; and it is not rebellion at all, it is submission to the higher law that our government is in rebellion to. We're not the rebels, they're the rebels."
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