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Title: U.N. VEHICLES BY THE THOUSANDS STAGED IN FLORIDA
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Published: Jun 11, 2010
Author: autocollisionman
Post Date: 2010-06-27 08:11:32 by Itistoolate
Keywords: None
Views: 2075
Comments: 217
Poster Comment: just the right location for results of the "oil spill"
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#3. To: Itistoolate (#0)
Looking further, I find some of those dots apparently don't connect. For instance, Pegasus International is not connected to Pegasus Technologies. Two entirely different outfits. The airpark is owned by the county, not Pegasus. However, it is also said that that operation is a holding company. There is also a bunch of rumors that these are satellite-equipped vans for Directv. And also that it all ties in with the old GWEN (Ground Wave Emergency Network) which was supposed to safeguard the president's ability to launch a nuclear attack if a EMP nuke was exploded over North America. I assume that the capability is still there but these sites are now also being used for multipositional GPS transmitters, the kind that uses a ground signal to make professional surveying GPS equipment accurate down to within a few inches.
Do you believe we are very close to martial law and a NWO? Or are you a 'disinformation specialist?
Or are you a 'disinformation specialist? You mean, one of Them? LOL. I'm afraid I'm not that sinister. I do get fascinated by wild hoaxes, usually perpetrated by internet hoaxters or by Alex Jones or George Noory or those types. A good recent example was the controversy over McChrystal's firing. I saw all the Right getting hot, thinking that this good patriotic conservative general had been railroaded by the evil Lefties at Rolling Stone. Then Armbinder at The Atlantic, a very well-connected guy, comes out and says "Now it can be revealed..." that McChrystal was an Obama voter, is a social liberal and a political liberal and banned Fox News from being seen at his command in Af-Pak, also that he was engaged in liberal social engineering of the Afghan population in his areas. So it wasn't some valiant conservative patriot general being railroaded. It was a Lefty general getting in trouble because a Lefty reporter wrote some stuff about their drinking spree which caused our Lefty president to fire the general. Once this was revealed, those on the Right lost all interest in McChrystal. What is interesting is how quickly they rallied around General Petraeus. You are probably familiar with how the mindset on the Right works: as soon as one tin god falls, you must immediately replace him with another one. Then all is well. LOL. It is interesting to track down all the different conflicting rumors on something like the Florida vans, see how they cross-pollinate each other (often as an obvious result of Google searching a topic). We see Sorcha Faal was finally exposed as a hoax. The one that keeps popping up that hasn't been fully investigated is Debkafile. I think they're a Mossad operation, meant to swirl rumors about Israel and the Mideast, to muddy the internet waters with disinfo and misdirection. Or to break "stories" at a key moment and distract people from other factual reporting on Israel and the Mideast. For instance, recently Debka ran a bunch of stuff on American ships and Israeli submarines preparing to attack Iran, hyping it as much as possible. That filtered around the internet, distracting from the boarding of the flotilla, the situation in Gaza, etc. I've noticed this same thing before, that Debka surfaces most strongly with its wildest stories just when the internet folk (supporters of Israel, especially among American evangelicals) need to be distracted from actual news about Israel or the Mideast. It's all a little too tidy, it seems to me. Of course, Debka might be just some amateur propagandizing. Or Debka might be connected with Mossad or with Israeli state department or Likud (probably) or Israeli arms manufacturers or whatever. Given the incredible variety and constant arguing on these topics by Jews in the States and Israel, who really knows just who Debka is connected to. Or if they're just attention whores. Even going by what they themselves say about their sources, it is obvious they can easily be manipulated by Israeli government sources and/or Likud.
CERBERUS — GUARDING THE GATES OF HELL?? « The Story Behind The Story Jun 4, 2010 ... “Pegasus International” owns and operates Pegasus Technologies – which is involved in a neat little NSA/CIA operation titled the ... atrueott.wordpress.com/20...arding-the-gates-of-hell/ CERBERUS — GUARDING THE GATES OF HELL?? Filed under: Uncategorized by atrueott — 30 Comments June 4, 2010 UPDATED INFORMATION ON GPS COORDINATES ON GOOGLE MAPS AND GOOGLE EARTH!! Also, since this article was posted, I have received documentation that the vans are the property of DirectTV, and are being outfitted with new GWEN TOWER and Satellite accessing technologies. Doesn’t that make you feel better?? (How can the CIA and NSA collect data for the new “Data Collection Center” in Utah — do you think they would use vans with government license plates and CIA/NSA Collections on the side – or would they use a cover corporation such as DirectTV??) Open Google Earth and enter these GPS coordinates: 29.972464, and 81.660923. The You-tube video www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y...A&feature=player_embedded is a bit spurious and misinforming to say the least. First, this is not an “Air Force Base” — it is a PRIVATELY OWNED FACILITY known as “Reynolds Airpark” a private Airport and “manufacturing facility”. A Mr. Ted McGowan is the manager – and their phone number is: 904-284-3505. Second, these are not “U.N. Vehicles”. These white vans belong to Pegasus International and Cerberus/DynCorp. Check it out: www.airport-data.com/airport/FL60/ and the latest (May 28, 2010) picture of the airport at: www.airport-data.com/airport/photo/017237.html.html Now, for the BAD NEWS — “Reynolds Airpark” is listed in the Clay County Fla. plat/tax rolls as being wholly owned by a company named Pegasus International. Ok, I thought, what exactly is “Pegasus International” and what exactly do they do?? Well – among other things, they just happen to be involved in the OIL DRILLING BUSINESS – with ties to Halliburton and BRITISH PETROLEUM!!! What the hell??? See their website at: www.pegasus-international.com/site.php Then, of all things, they just happen to have an office in Salt Lake City, Utah. Here is where the plot thickens. Their SLC office also houses Dick Cheney’s Halliburton, and is next to the Minerals Management Service (MMS) offices. Worse, their U.K. office “address” is next door to (or possibly even a part of) British Petroleum as well. What is going on?? They also have “offices” in Turkmenistan, Nigeria, and Azerbijan – hotbeds of political intrigue and profiteering for BP. See www.universalpegasus.com/locations.php But — it gets worse, if possible. “Pegasus International” owns and operates Pegasus Technologies – which is involved in a neat little NSA/CIA operation titled the “Information Sharing Council” or ISC. Their “unclassified” 2006 report can be seen at www.ise.gov/docs/eds/edspo-conops.pdf. A careful reading of this document shows that part of the “Pegasus Program” is the deployment of thousands of vehicles across America, outfitted with domestic spying “Maximum Information Technology” (MaxIT) systems. MaxIT is a joint venture of the following companies: Appriss Inc., Bio-Key International, Inc., Business Communications Inc., Circadence Corporation, Cquay Technologies, Dell, eLabs Inc., MS e-Center and Sun Microsystems. (See 12/12/03 report on www.eetimes.com/press_rel...cleID=117687&CompanyId=1) When I studied DynCorp International, I found that DynCorp and Pegasus International are basically joined at the hips with many international “joint projects”. There is NO DOUBT in my mind that DynCorp, and Pegasus are CIA FRONT COMPANIES involved in the deepest black ops. (See NanoTech expose in “Dr. Ott’s Papers” on this website.) Also, check this out. Dyncorp Int. was “purchased” back on April 12 by Cerberus Capital, and the “deal” was brokered by, you guessed it, Goldman Sachs who SHORTED TRANSOCEAN STOCKS on April 17, three days before the Gulf Oil debacle began. See finance.yahoo.com/news/Dy...-3625293200.html?x=0&.v=1 WHAT IN THE GATES OF HELL IS GOING ON????? Here we have VISUAL PROOF of hundreds of vehicles undergoing modifications by Pegasus International teams at their Reynolds AirPark facility, all indications of MaxIT information is that the process involved is basically making the vehicles ultra-modern “spy-mobiles” (the on-line google-earth picture was dated Jan. 2008, while the most current picture of May 28, 2010 -shows the spy-vans still on property.) We also now know that Dyncorp is now Cerberus, and they are tied to Pegasus International. So, what’s in a name? Consider that Pegasus and Cerberus are both central figures of Greek (and Roman) mythology. Pegasus is the preferred mode of transportation for the pantheon of gods, while Cerberus — well — this is the mythical guardian of the gates of hell! What would possess anybody to name their corporation Cerberus??? This world is in deep trouble, it would appear.
Those evacuations are for a possible hurricane, not the oil spill. They want to make sure that oil recovery workers and operations don't impede a coastal evacuation if a big hurricane like Andrew hits FL again. They do these preparations every year. It's a big nothing. They're just updating their plans to make some allowances for a hurricane coming during a big oil spill. It isn't sinister.
OWNING THE WEATHER AND OUR MINDS IN 2008? January 27, 2008 In 1997, Former Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen (above left) said the technology to alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves is real! This statement would immediately make a person think about the 2004 Sumatra earthquake, tsunami and hurricane Katrina. http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=674 In 2001, Congressman Kucinich (above) introduced a bill talking about through the use of land-based, sea-based, or space-based systems using radiation, electromagnetic, psychotronic, sonic, laser, or other energies directed at targeted populations for the purpose of information war, mood management, or mind control of such populations. http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c107:H.R.2977.IH: US AIR FORCE: Weather as a Force Multiplier. Owning the Weather in 2025 http://csat.au.af.mil/2025/volume3/vol3ch15.pdf
Was that before or after his encounter with the UFO? Kucinich isn't very credible.
Kucinich isn't very credible. Ah, the giggle factor. A conditioned response by years of psychological conditioning in the media and by government. Then follow with a logical fallacy i.e. "guilt by association". So we get the presentation that: Implied Premise: UFOs do not exist. And then the logical fallacy based upon the background of the implied premise. Anyone who has seen a UFO is a kook. All founded upon a false and fallacious chain of reasoning, founded upon a psychologically planted "giggle factor" to encourage people not to look, not to think, and to accept an opinion based not upon evidence, but upon sheer repetition, by an "authority", of an unsupported assertion. While it is not my intent to get off onto a UFO debate the sheer volume of case reports, witness reports etc., all point to an indefinite percentage of UFO reports to be aircraft of some kind. By definition they are unidentified. Further, one can examine the other available reports and reasonably conclude that not all are of terrestrial origin. There too many reports from too many credible witnesses to conclude otherwise. I am not going to bother to go through the evidenciary chain, but the data is there, and mostly in the public domain. One site filled with good reportage is www.sightings.com
Kucinich isn't very credible. Ah, the giggle factor. A conditioned response by years of psychological conditioning in the media and by government. Then follow with a logical fallacy i.e. "guilt by association". So we get the presentation that: Implied Premise: UFOs do not exist. And then the logical fallacy based upon the background of the implied premise. Anyone who has seen a UFO is a kook. Kucinich has seen a UFO Therefore Kucinich is a kook. Corrolary: Using the fallacy of Guilt by Association, anything which Kucinich says is not credible. All founded upon a false and fallacious chain of reasoning, founded upon a psychologically planted "giggle factor" to encourage people not to look, not to think, and to accept an opinion based not upon evidence, but upon sheer repetition, by an "authority", of an unsupported assertion. While it is not my intent to get off onto a UFO debate the sheer volume of case reports, witness reports etc., all point to an indefinite percentage of UFO reports to be aircraft of some kind. By definition they are unidentified. Further, one can examine the other available reports and reasonably conclude that not all are of terrestrial origin. There too many reports from too many credible witnesses to conclude otherwise. I am not going to bother to go through the evidenciary chain, but the data is there, and mostly in the public domain. One site filled with good reportage is www.sightings.com Excellent! Way to dismantle a frayed technique that's still favored by some. UFO sightings number in the hundreds annually in the US and in the thousands worldwide, and many are captured with cameras and witnessed by unimpeachable sources. The only people who use such a shabby technique now are those who with equal logic could say, "I've never personally seen a leopard seal so they exist only in the minds of kooks." In fact UFOs have been well documented and witnessed more (by a possible multimillion factor) than the giant toothy predator seals of the icey North.
The only place I have ever seen a Leopard Seal is on film, which can be faked, and at the San Diego Zoo. Of course you can't trust those Zoos - some of the staff likely belongs to PETA or some other Wildlife Organization like the Audubon Society, and you know how those kooks are. Which is of course as valid as the usual UFO scoffer argument regurgitating what they have been told they think. Ditto the Acolytes of that world famous second class Illusionist "The Less than Amazing Randi". Definitely not in the class of a David Copperfield, and not a scientist either - although he is treated as a fount of scientific wisdom by his flock of sheeple. I don't often argue the UFO debate simply because, for me, the sheer volume of evidence and reports from good witnesses is overwhelming. I long ago concluded that the phenomena was valid and that we are likely being visited and observed. Probably by the extraterrestrial equivalent of Anthropologists and Ethnologists - studying the primitives. One of pieces of data that convinced me that there was something to it was that military pilots are subject to prosecution, jail time, and draconian fines for making a UFO report public. Why would the government inflict stern punishments upon the most credible of witnesses if there was no there, there? Wouldn't they, if there was nothing of substance, treat them as insane, pull their ticket to fly, and possibly institutionalize them? Normally, absent a crime, people who are crazy are not prosecuted for the fact of being crazy. So, why prosecute military pilots if what they are seeing is not there? That IS insane. And thanks for the compliment.
BTW, you are aware that a military pilot could, upon reaching the age of retirement, suddenly decide he "saw" a UFO and then get paid $100K or more by the tabloids to publicize it? Lots of financial incentive and human motives for mischief of that kind.
1952 Washington D.C. UFO incident
Explained as a double-inversion. For instance, those military pilots you think so highly of said that the inversion caused radar to bounce off the cloud layer and pick up a boat going to Mount Vernon. This is the far more dangerous kind of UFO (an Unidentified Floating Object), all the more sinister because it doesn't fly at all. The webpage link you provided does far more to debunk your "proof" than to support it.
Or maybe it was "Swamp Gas", eh? You obviously didn't read the part that mentioned military jets being surrounded by these glowing objects, nor does your "inversion" BS explain the visual sightings, notably that which is present in the video I embedded. And here's an excerpt from the Wiki page on the incident... At 8:15 p.m. on Saturday, July 26, 1952, a pilot and stewardess on a National Airlines flight into Washington observed some strange objects above their plane. Within minutes, both radar centers at National Airport, and the radar at Andrews AFB, were tracking more unknown objects. The objects were traveling between 90 and 100 miles per hour. A master sergeant at Andrews visually observed the objects; he later said that "these lights did not have the characteristics of shooting stars. There was [sic] no trails . . . they traveled faster than any shooting star I have ever seen" (Clark, 658). Meanwhile, Albert M. Chop, the press spokesman for Project Blue Book, arrived at National Airport and refused several reporters' requests to photograph the radar screens. He then joined the radar center personnel (Ruppelt, 164). By this time (9:30 p.m.) the radar center was picking up unknown objects in every sector. At times the objects traveled slowly; at other times they reversed direction and moved across the radarscope at speeds calculated at 7,000 mph. At 11:30 p.m., two jet fighters from Newcastle AFB in Delaware arrived over Washington. Capt. John McHugo, the flight leader, was vectored towards the radar pips but saw nothing, despite repeated attempts (Peebles, 76). However, his wingman, Lt. William Patterson, did see four white "glows" and chased them. Suddenly, the "glows" turned and surrounded his fighter. Patterson asked the control tower at National Airport what he should do; according to Chop, the tower's answer was "stunned silence". The four objects then sped away from Patterson's jet and disappeared (Clark, 659). After midnight on July 27, Major Dewey Fournet, Project Blue Book's liaison at the Pentagon, and a Lt. Holcomb, an Air Force radar specialist, arrived at the radar center at National Airport. During the night, Lt. Holcomb received a call from the Washington National Weather Station. They told him that a slight temperature inversion was present over the city, but Holcomb felt that the inversion was not "nearly strong enough to explain the 'good and solid' returns" on the radarscopes (Peebles, 76). Fournet relayed that all those present in the radar room were convinced that the targets were most likely caused by solid metallic objects. There had been weather targets on the scope too, he said, but this was a common occurrence and the controllers "were paying no attention to them." (Ruppelt, 166) Two more jets from Newcastle AFB were scrambled during the night. One pilot saw nothing unusual; the other pilot moved towards a white light which "vanished" when he closed in. A Capital Airlines flight leaving Washington spotted "odd lights" which remained visible for about twelve minutes (Clark, 660). As on July 20, the sightings and unknown radar returns ended at sunrise.
But jet airliners fall out of the sky like a rock if they go as slow as 90-100mph. Your "facts" refute themselves. Or were the Little Gray Ones sneakily warping spacetime and nullifying the laws of physics? I always find it amusing to think that races of intelligent superbeings would cross interstellar distances to come here, then tease us with UFO sightings while playing coy and never actually revealing themselves. Of course, they might have a rather odd sense of humor. Or they're just waiting for their buddies to show up so they can eat us all.
Are you so dense that you think wingless craft follow the same rules as jet airliners? You also overlooked the part that estimated their speed at 7000 mph at times. By this time (9:30 p.m.) the radar center was picking up unknown objects in every sector. At times the objects traveled slowly; at other times they reversed direction and moved across the radarscope at speeds calculated at 7,000 mph. At 11:30 p.m., two jet fighters from Newcastle AFB in Delaware arrived over Washington. Capt. John McHugo, the flight leader, was vectored towards the radar pips but saw nothing, despite repeated attempts (Peebles, 76). However, his wingman, Lt. William Patterson, did see four white "glows" and chased them. Suddenly, the "glows" turned and surrounded his fighter. Patterson asked the control tower at National Airport what he should do; according to Chop, the tower's answer was "stunned silence". The four objects then sped away from Patterson's jet and disappeared (Clark, 659).
You have one of those "I WANT TO BELIEVE! posters on the wall, don't you?
It's not the matter of "wanting to believe", it's the matter of not being a closed minded idiot and not ignoring the evidence just because some people say "it is impossible, "everyone KNOWS that there isn't any other intelligent life in the Universe"...
Obviously that cannot be true unless the Little Gray Men gave you a photo of our solar system from their scrapbook.
I posted the picture to illustrate how big the Universe is. I think it's absurd to suppose there is no other intelligent life in the Universe. Given the size of the Universe, the probability of that is maybe zero.
It's not convincing. People say this but I would like to know how they got so much experience of the universe that they know this as a fact or even as a probability. Our scientists greatly overestimate their knowledge and competence. And internet wannabes are even worse. The universe is undoubtedly far stranger than we know or could possibly imagine. As for Little Gray Men wanting to visit us, I can't imagine anything more boring. Unless we are tastier than I think.
Just because it's so big. I'm not sure about the numbers, but something like 100 Billion stars in the galaxy. Again, not exact with the numbers, but maybe 100 to 500 Billion galaxies in the Universe. You do the math. What I mean is, according to mathematical probablility, I think it is extremely unlikely that we are the only intelligent beings in the Universe. And that's an understatement. But hey, what do I know?
Just because it's so big. I'm not sure about the numbers, but something like 100 Billion stars in the galaxy. Again, not exact with the numbers, but maybe 100 to 500 Billion galaxies in the Universe. You do the math. What I mean is, according to mathematical probablility, I think it is extremely unlikely that we are the only intelligent beings in the Universe. And that's an understatement. But hey, what do I know? And recently the number of Galaxies has expanded yet again as more were discovered to exist than previously thought. It is not unlikely that numbers of galaxies may number in the trillions. What's a billion times a trillion? A number so big that it loses meaning, and yet that is the number of stars in the known universe. So far, every star that astronomers have been able to look at closely enough has planets. Even if we limit the possibility of habitable planets to only Type G Yellow Dwarfs, in the main sequence, much like our own then there are likely millions of habitable planets in our galaxy alone. Of course not having explored other Star Systems yet we do not know for a fact that only Type G Yellow Dwarfs have habitable planets. I can see a Blue Star having habitable planets, but just further out from the star. Ditto Red Stars, but closer to the fire. It is a rather limited, parochial, and egocentric view to presume that we are the only intelligent life, in a very vast universe, or even the most advanced. Such presumption is childish to say the least.
You assume we are anything close to intelligent. The evidence is awfully thin for it. We are little removed from cavemen with clubs and enough knowledge to start a fire.
LOL. Seriously though, we are quite intelligent as a species. The range of intelligence varies, but even your average Special Olympics participant is light years ahead of our closest relatives, chimps and bonobos, intellectually. It's all good fun to consider ourselves "dumb", but end of the day "dumb" doesn't build skyscrapers, space craft or nanobots, or even mundane things like canteens. And "dumb" certainly doesn't contemplate the meaning of life, or the state of matter occupied by light, as a leisure activity while toying around on computers it built which perform millions of precise mathematical calculations every half second.
And how do we view the aborigines or the isolated uncivilized human tribes? A starfaring race would consider us quaint at best. Or just a delicious entree. Hollyweird has managed to generally create an idea of benevolent aliens in most people's minds.
That simply has nothing to do with whether we're intelligent or not. Intelligence does not guarantee a "moral" or benign outcome, nor an amoral or evil outcome. Even the very concept of pondering things like "how do we see..." displays intellect that you'll never, ever encounter in any other living species. Or, an interesting discovery of a new culture and civilization which they'd wish to learn about. I don't know about you, but if you placed me back on continental Europe in the year 300 AD I'd be fascinated to study the indigenous Celtic populations. Sure, they wouldn't have microcomputers or cars or nuclear bombs or stealth aircraft or moon faring space ships, but their technological level would have nothing to do with their innate intelligence, culture, poetry, art or other interesting things. I'd be no better than them from a "superiority" standpoint, just because I came from a point in time that had all of the artifacts I mentioned. And that's just human to human. Think of all of the exploration and study you could do, intellectually, with an entirely different self aware intelligent alien species! All of your assumptions would be challenged, everything would seem new by observing them, and your perceptions of the universe would be expanded. Technological advancement is not the panacea of intellectual measurement, iow. "Aliens" can be on the same intellectual level as us, but have a couple of thousand more years head start on technology, and their technology would look like magic to us. But, again, their intellectual level would be the same. Maybe they'd be benign, or not, or simply neutral. We, for example, have learned somewhat from our encounters with each other over the centuries. We're still struggling, but that doesn't mean we haven't learned. I suspect the same would apply to "them" only with some more time under their belts.
Life then was generally pretty crude. I don't think you'd find it so charming after a few months. Or a few days. And how often has that happened here when Europeans met up with primitive tribes? You have a few like Sir Richard Burton at the fringes that no one pays much attention to. And the superior culture conquers the inferior over and over. You wish to believe they would share a simian curiosity, like ours. That would be almost impossible. A starfaring race would of necessity have entirely different qualities and values from our own. You should assume they are far more different than like us. The reason we don't pick up radio traffic from other civilizations may be telling. What if a predator race is out there, just waiting to pounce on any radio signal source? Those old reruns of I Love Lucy could have summoned an invasion fleet, already inbound to us. The SETI project raises interesting questions. Since development of radio is so fundamental to technology, why don't we hear from other civilizations, their Lucy reruns at least? Or their Rush Limbaugh? That silence points to an empty universe. Or, less likely, to predator race(s) waiting to pounce on radio signals. I think an empty universe is more likely despite all the folks on this thread ranting over billions upon billions upon billions of stars, like some bad version of Carl Sagan. Let's grant that there are millions or billions or even trillions of galaxies for the sake of argument. Again, if this is so, then the numerical argument made that life must be common Out There turns against those who assume there must be intelligent life out there. If there are so many planets with intelligent life, we should have an E.T. channel on cable already with the E.T. version of I Love Lucy reruns. I suspect life, as it is on Earth, is truly freak-of-nature stuff. A real cosmic accident. There are so many things that have to be just right for us to live on this planet. We don't appreciate how delicate these balances are that allow for life on Earth. I don't doubt that there are many star systems with planets. What I doubt is that such perfect accidents that allow for life to develop and intelligence to emerge is anywhere near as common as some of you would like, with no evidence, to believe. You believe it because you wish it to be true. This general denial you all seem to have that aliens could be truly malevolent underscores this naiveté.
What has that to do with anything? Life in the Amazon jungle is crude, yet people go there to study indigenous tribes. What has that to do with intelligence levels? You may note, I said we've learned but are still struggling. Actually it would be impossible not to have curiosity and to still develop high technology. You don't get science unless you're first curious about how the universe functions. There is no Aristotelian necessarily that I see. I would assume that they would, indeed, have different qualities and values than ours, but then, that's just an assumption. In the end we won't know until we're staring them in the antennae. I do, but then I also assume some basic things about intelligence and curiosity that I believe might well be universal. I've thought about this before. It may well be that we're looking ONLY for a civilization exactly as advanced, or close to us, and missing the big picture. If you're scanning the mountains for smoke signals, it stands to reason that you're only looking for people who would use smoke signals. The race you've never met but who lives thousands of miles away, who uses satellites to communicate, would not exist to your observations, nor would you exist to their observations. Well, then we're screwed already and no use being upset by it. Lock and load. :) Only if you're using smoke signals as your "signal" to determine life out there, ya' know? Who knows, I guess. That's not an illogical view, and probably is more likely to be true than the opposite. That framework view may shift a bit, however, if even basic life is found in places like Europa or other "close" planets/moons. What's also to consider is the bacteria type life that appears on the seabed floors living near volcanic vents, devoid of sun or really any life sustaining substances we know of. It's one of those things that we'll know when we know, or never know. Whatcanyado? Ultimately I'm more inclined to agree with your view of an empty universe than I am to the one that has space aliens coming here on holiday to drink some margaritas during the time of the Aztecs.
On Earth. We have no idea of the biology or conditions of life. Other planets could have something innate to them by which a grasp of physics and chemistry is fundamental to higher life forms (unlike humans that wandered around in caves oblivious to scientific principle). Of course, we can't know what we don't know. I still say the odds are that any alien life is far more alien than we can imagine. I'm trying to underscore here that you are anthropomorphizing these hypothetical aliens. Exactly. True enough. But any civilization would detect the vast amount of radio traffic we blare into space in all directions. Advanced civilizations might be using quantum communications, having abandoned radio thousands of years ago. Or they may be telepathic and/or have no language or visual medium like ours. But is it likely that out of those billions of billions of stars that no other race is using radio? Again, the numerical argument turns against you, not for you. In the entire universe, there are no other radio-using civilizations at approximately our stage? Seems strange, no? Of course, an advanced civilization may have no interest whatsoever in other civilizations. None, zero, nada, zip. Entirely possible. Much as China and Japan regarded the West. It isn't unusual here on our own planet. Or stay skinny so you're the last one eaten by our alien overlords. Still, that silence is deafening to the argument that billions of billions of stars must produce intelligent life. I think any kind of life is probably more precious than we know at present. The evidence from our own solar system argues that a verdant planet, even something that can sustain life at the level we have in the Sahara (or some bacteria on Mars or Europa) may be incredibly rare. Of course, we are excluding the sheer amount of time that it takes for light or radio waves to travel interstellar distances. Assume that life is on one of thousand planets at average distances of a hundred light years apart. So there could be a incoming wave of radio traffic suddenly appear at any time, (just as they would be receiving our radio signals starting with the old radio broadcasts). That would be true for an advanced planet with radio technology within one hundred lights years distance. So perhaps we haven't been listening long enough. That would not account for lack of signals that have been traveling toward us for hundreds or thousands or millions of years. Again, that silence is deafening to the argument for the commonality of life. And it is difficult to believe that any advanced civilization would not make some use of radio signals during a fairly long period of their development. It would seem unlikely that you could jump to quantum or subspace communications from the beginning. If there are other civilizations out there, I suspect that they would be on average thousands of lights years apart unless located toward the center of their galaxy. And our position in the outer spiral arm of our galaxy does work somewhat against us. And being located closer in toward the galactic core makes it more likely that supernovae and other phenomenon would destroy advanced life there. Also greater hazards from rogue comets or even rogue planets in a denser area. Out here, we're far safer unless a nearby star like Alpha Centauri goes nova. We may find that life is only possible in relatively quiet galactic backwaters like where we are located which again argues against any other civilizations being within reach of ourselves for communication or for visiting/colonizing. All those stars and planets. And yet not one radio signal of artificial origin...
LOL. Bit of a stretch to have an innate grasp of quantum physics, don't you think? Why, no, not at all. We've only had radio powerful enough to fling it all out there for what, ~90 - ~100 years? There could have come and gone a billion civilizations using radio who moved on to other forms (or perished) in the time since earth was formed. The chances of another civilization at our exact stage, at this time, close enough to pick up their transmissions in something approaching real time (meaning, within a thousand years of transmission) seems exceedingly low to me to be almost statistically negligible. We didn't all start at the same point in time, presumably. All of the lack of smoke signals is deafening to the argument that there are hundreds of tribes of aborigines in central and south America. That's precisely my point. Another point is, other civs may never have thought to use radio to communicate. Maybe they went to light communications at our stage (which we do as well to an extent, with fiber optics), which would dissipate quickly after a certain distance. Presuming radio has to be on the time line is telling me you believe that "they" are more like us than you've previously indicated. :) Or, maybe those have already come and gone before Marconni set up his first receiver set. Perhaps homo erectus caught the first transmissions of I Love Mandark, neanderthals were bombarded with toothpaste commercials for centuries and never, ever knew it, and neolithic man was pelted with a smaller scattering of space craft communications as distant craft orbited distant stars a million years ago. The signals stop completely by the time Plato hits the scene, and then by the 1920's there is nothing but static silence. Or maybe they don't sit around on the low hydrogen bandwidth like SETI assumes. Or, we may have missed the first batch from 100,000 light years out, and by the time the next batch arrives from, say, 150,000 light years, we'll be 50,000 years in the future from now. Distance, space and exact levels of technology don't play well together, numbers wise. Why? You can modulate light and produce sound from it, quite easily, even without lasers. Who really knows if radio is a requirement. And I've yet to see a single smoke signal from south America, here in Ohio. Go figure. Fact is, if we hear anything at all, the odds will be astronomical that it occurred. Personally I think we're tilting at windmills with SETI. Something might come of it, but nothing we can use long term, other than "we're not alone". Whomever might transmit that we receive will be either long dead or long moved on. The bottle in the ocean scenario I went over yesterday.
Not at all. There are some very strange regions of space our astronomers cannot make any sense out of. Altogether different elements are in play. I was trying to illustrate how strange the universe is, how much variety there is even in elementary particles that we barely have scratched the surface of. No, the chances are not that low if there really are so many other civilizations out there. Even if they don't possess hearing, they would have plenty of uses for radio. Unlikely. Light, via lasers or whatever, isn't a very good carrier wave outside optical fiber. Radio is much more flexible and easier to use. Quantum communications is certainly possible for us and one of its most attractive features is how easily you can make it uncrackable to a non-paired receiver. Secure far beyond anything you could do with radio or wired signals. Besides, without radio, how would Ruxh Lypmbqoxtfk broadcast to all the right-wing squid on planet Brztoatlxb? I think you're being contrarian here. I'm not going to explain why radio is such a fundamental technology to any technical society. Even if their planet or planetary system is hostile to use of radio, the discovery of it is pretty essential. And you haven't explained why, with millions of other civilizations out there, why none of them can at present be detected broadcasting any radio signals. According to you, the universe is teeming with these civilizations and not all can be using light or quantum or whatever for communications. I notice how you seem to have retreated considerably from your earlier posts. Not if there are millions, perhaps billions, of other life-bearing planets out there. You're getting hung by your own Carl Saganish numbers. Just admit it.
I'm not "retreating", I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your assumptions. It doesn't mean I believe that "somebody" is "out there". If I discuss coffee cups with somebody, and state that I like blue cups, and somebody else starts telling me how red cups aren't made, and I point out the various red cups around the room, it doesn't mean that I've reversed my position on blue cups. The only numbers I'm getting "hung on" are the ones you're putting forth telling me that somehow, there would be constant reception of WUFO radio. It just makes no sense and assumes too many things that may well be specific to humans. It also relies far too heavily on the notion that the universe is populated nose to toes with advanced civilizations. I've not claimed a crowded universe, at all, so I'm not entirely certain what you're arguing. At best, I suspect that if alien life exists it's much rarer than presumed, which would explain the dearth of radio signals, while still allowing for their possible reception in the future. You seem to be saying "bajillions of civilizations is the standard, I don't hear anything 24/7/365 on low hydrogen, ergo there are no civilizations at all". Truth of the matter is probably closer to "relatively few enlightened civilizations, staggered in time". 100 years is far too small a window to rule anything out in that case, in fact, it's laughably small to use as a sample base. Like taking today's weather, right now in Ohio, and extrapolating the future weather of the planet for the next 10,000 years. Until we hear something though I have to go with the scientific default, which is disbelief until proof is presented.
But not even one? You aren't exactly in the same camp with all the little Sagans on the thread relying on the billions-and-billions vacuous thinking. I probably tarred you with all their comments even though you don't go the distance like they do. No denying it. We do overestimate what we know. OTOH, we could start picking up a flood of SETI traffic tomorrow. You'd immediately see a push for global defense and governance since we would know they had already been receiving our transmissions. If the broadcast started with, "Peoples of the Earth,...", I would be scared out of my wits. I'd much rather have the re-runs of "I Love Lzutcxyp". Sound enough.
In only a very small handful of years where we've actually been actively listening (since, what, the 1960's I think)? No, gosh, a few centuries or tens of thousands of years may pass between "bursts then silence" from a hypothetical civilization. Even if the frequency of picking up transmissions was every hundred years, we'd still be well within the range of "first signal" probability without having had to have received that first signal. Running under the "few and far spaced out on the time line model" with this of course. No question. Even if the bulk of humanity said "hey, neat", the politicians would use it as an event to coordinate a massive global movement (and of course, global government). Thanks. It's how I generally approach any topic like this. Sure, something *might* be possible, but until I see proof, I'm not going to indulge in the notion that it is happening necessarily. I will however speculate on things like "if this were true, what would be the outcome", for fun more than anything. :)
#213. To: SonOfLiberty (#212)
You are more thoughtful than those who use the sheer numbers of star systems to suppose that there are thousands of civilizations in our own galaxy, millions or billions in nearby galaxies. If they suddenly announced contact with E.T., I'd be suspicious they were false-flagging us anyway to justify more power grabs, massive spending, planetary defense, etc. So would a lot of other people.
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#4. To: TooConservative (#3)
#5. To: Itistoolate (#4)
(Edited)
Do you believe we are very close to martial law and a NWO?
#6. To: TooConservative (#5)
#7. To: Itistoolate, all (#6)
#9. To: Jethro Tull (#7)
BP, the Coast Guard and the state of Lousiana have already been talking about how to coordinate evacuations so workers and equipment involved in the oil spill response don't clog highway escape routes.
#14. To: TooConservative (#9)
Those evacuations are for a possible hurricane, not the oil spill. They want to make sure that oil recovery workers and operations don't impede a coastal evacuation if a big hurricane like Andrew hits FL again.
#15. To: Itistoolate (#14)
In 2001, Congressman Kucinich
#16. To: TooConservative, Itistoolate, FormerLurker, wudidiz (#15)
Was that before or after his encounter with the UFO?
Kucinich has seen a UFO
Therefore Kucinich is a kook.
Corrolary: Using the fallacy of Guilt by Association, anything which Kucinich says is not credible.
#18. To: Original_Intent (#16)
(Edited)
Was that before or after his encounter with the UFO?
#19. To: HOUNDDAWG (#18)
#24. To: Original_Intent (#19)
One of pieces of data that convinced me that there was something to it was that military pilots are subject to prosecution, jail time, and draconian fines for making a UFO report public.
#31. To: TooConservative (#24)
#34. To: FormerLurker (#31)
#38. To: TooConservative (#34)
Explained as a double-inversion.
Events of July 26–27
#41. To: FormerLurker (#38)
At 8:15 p.m. on Saturday, July 26, 1952, a pilot and stewardess on a National Airlines flight into Washington observed some strange objects above their plane. Within minutes, both radar centers at National Airport, and the radar at Andrews AFB, were tracking more unknown objects. The objects were traveling between 90 and 100 miles per hour.
#42. To: TooConservative (#41)
But jet airliners fall out of the sky like a rock if they go as slow as 90-100mph.
#44. To: FormerLurker (#42)
#47. To: TooConservative (#44)
You have one of those "I WANT TO BELIEVE! posters on the wall, don't you?
#58. To: FormerLurker, TooConservative, Original_Intent, Lod, HOUNDDAWG, all (#47)
"it is impossible, "everyone KNOWS that there isn't any other intelligent life in the Universe"...
#63. To: wudidiz (#58)
YOU ARE HERE
#66. To: TooConservative (#63)
YOU ARE HERE
#68. To: wudidiz (#66)
Given the size of the Universe, the probability of that is maybe zero.
#69. To: TooConservative (#68)
It's not convincing. People say this but I would like to know how they got so much experience of the universe that they know this as a fact or even as a probability.
#151. To: wudidiz, TooConservative (#69)
It's not convincing. People say this but I would like to know how they got so much experience of the universe that they know this as a fact or even as a probability.
#163. To: Original_Intent (#151)
It is a rather limited, parochial, and egocentric view to presume that we are the only intelligent life, in a very vast universe, or even the most advanced. Such presumption is childish to say the least.
#199. To: TooConservative (#163)
You assume we are anything close to intelligent. The evidence is awfully thin for it. We are little removed from cavemen with clubs and enough knowledge to start a fire.
#200. To: SonOfLiberty (#199)
It's all good fun to consider ourselves "dumb", but end of the day "dumb" doesn't build skyscrapers, space craft or nanobots, or even mundane things like canteens. And "dumb" certainly doesn't contemplate the meaning of life, or the state of matter occupied by light, as a leisure activity while toying around on computers it built which perform millions of precise mathematical calculations every half second.
#202. To: TooConservative (#200)
And how do we view the aborigines or the isolated uncivilized human tribes?
A starfaring race would consider us quaint at best. Or just a delicious entree.
#203. To: SonOfLiberty, wudidiz, RickyJ, Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#202)
Sure, they wouldn't have microcomputers or cars or nuclear bombs or stealth aircraft or moon faring space ships, but their technological level would have nothing to do with their innate intelligence, culture, poetry, art or other interesting things.
And that's just human to human. Think of all of the exploration and study you could do, intellectually, with an entirely different self aware intelligent alien species! All of your assumptions would be challenged, everything would seem new by observing them, and your perceptions of the universe would be expanded.
Technological advancement is not the panacea of intellectual measurement, iow. "Aliens" can be on the same intellectual level as us, but have a couple of thousand more years head start on technology, and their technology would look like magic to us. But, again, their intellectual level would be the same. Maybe they'd be benign, or not, or simply neutral.
#204. To: TooConservative (#203)
Life then was generally pretty crude. I don't think you'd find it so charming after a few months. Or a few days.
And how often has that happened here when Europeans met up with primitive tribes? You have a few like Sir Richard Burton at the fringes that no one pays much attention to. And the superior culture conquers the inferior over and over.
You wish to believe they would share a simian curiosity, like ours. That would be almost impossible.
A starfaring race would of necessity have entirely different qualities and values from our own.
You should assume they are far more different than like us.
The reason we don't pick up radio traffic from other civilizations may be telling.
What if a predator race is out there, just waiting to pounce on any radio signal source? Those old reruns of I Love Lucy could have summoned an invasion fleet, already inbound to us.
I think an empty universe is more likely despite all the folks on this thread ranting over billions upon billions upon billions of stars, like some bad version of Carl Sagan. Let's grant that there are millions or billions or even trillions of galaxies for the sake of argument. Again, if this is so, then the numerical argument made that life must be common Out There turns against those who assume there must be intelligent life out there. If there are so many planets with intelligent life, we should have an E.T. channel on cable already with the E.T. version of I Love Lucy reruns.
I suspect life, as it is on Earth, is truly freak-of-nature stuff. A real cosmic accident. There are so many things that have to be just right for us to live on this planet.
#205. To: SonOfLiberty, wudidiz, RickyJ, Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#204)
(Edited)
Actually it would be impossible not to have curiosity and to still develop high technology. You don't get science unless you're first curious about how the universe functions.
I do, but then I also assume some basic things about intelligence and curiosity that I believe might well be universal.
I've thought about this before. It may well be that we're looking ONLY for a civilization exactly as advanced, or close to us, and missing the big picture. If you're scanning the mountains for smoke signals, it stands to reason that you're only looking for people who would use smoke signals. The race you've never met but who lives thousands of miles away, who uses satellites to communicate, would not exist to your observations, nor would you exist to their observations.
Well, then we're screwed already and no use being upset by it. Lock and load. :)
Only if you're using smoke signals as your "signal" to determine life out there, ya' know? Who knows, I guess.
That's not an illogical view, and probably is more likely to be true than the opposite. That framework view may shift a bit, however, if even basic life is found in places like Europa or other "close" planets/moons. What's also to consider is the bacteria type life that appears on the seabed floors living near volcanic vents, devoid of sun or really any life sustaining substances we know of. It's one of those things that we'll know when we know, or never know.
#206. To: TooConservative (#205)
Other planets could have something innate to them by which a grasp of physics and chemistry is fundamental to higher life forms (unlike humans that wandered around in caves oblivious to scientific principle).
But is it likely that out of those billions of billions of stars that no other race is using radio? Again, the numerical argument turns against you, not for you. In the entire universe, there are no other radio-using civilizations at approximately our stage? Seems strange, no?
Still, that silence is deafening to the argument that billions of billions of stars must produce intelligent life.
That would be true for an advanced planet with radio technology within one hundred lights years distance. So perhaps we haven't been listening long enough.
That would not account for lack of signals that have been traveling toward us for hundreds or thousands or millions of years.
And it is difficult to believe that any advanced civilization would not make some use of radio signals during a fairly long period of their development.
All those stars and planets. And yet not one radio signal of artificial origin..
#208. To: SonOfLiberty (#206)
(Edited)
LOL. Bit of a stretch to have an innate grasp of quantum physics, don't you think?
There could have come and gone a billion civilizations using radio who moved on to other forms (or perished) in the time since earth was formed. The chances of another civilization at our exact stage, at this time, close enough to pick up their transmissions in something approaching real time (meaning, within a thousand years of transmission) seems exceedingly low to me to be almost statistically negligible.
The signals stop completely by the time Plato hits the scene, and then by the 1920's there is nothing but static silence. Or maybe they don't sit around on the low hydrogen bandwidth like SETI assumes. Or, we may have missed the first batch from 100,000 light years out, and by the time the next batch arrives from, say, 150,000 light years, we'll be 50,000 years in the future from now. Distance, space and exact levels of technology don't play well together, numbers wise.
Another point is, other civs may never have thought to use radio to communicate. Maybe they went to light communications at our stage (which we do as well to an extent, with fiber optics), which would dissipate quickly after a certain distance. Presuming radio has to be on the time line is telling me you believe that "they" are more like us than you've previously indicated. :)
Why? You can modulate light and produce sound from it, quite easily, even without lasers. Who really knows if radio is a requirement.
And I've yet to see a single smoke signal from south America, here in Ohio. Go figure. Fact is, if we hear anything at all, the odds will be astronomical that it occurred. Personally I think we're tilting at windmills with SETI. Something might come of it, but nothing we can use long term, other than "we're not alone". Whomever might transmit that we receive will be either long dead or long moved on. The bottle in the ocean scenario I went over yesterday.
#210. To: TooConservative (#208)
#211. To: SonOfLiberty (#210)
The only numbers I'm getting "hung on" are the ones you're putting forth telling me that somehow, there would be constant reception of WUFO radio. It just makes no sense and assumes too many things that may well be specific to humans. It also relies far too heavily on the notion that the universe is populated nose to toes with advanced civilizations. I've not claimed a crowded universe, at all, so I'm not entirely certain what you're arguing. At best, I suspect that if alien life exists it's much rarer than presumed, which would explain the dearth of radio signals, while still allowing for their possible reception in the future. You seem to be saying "bajillions of civilizations is the standard, I don't hear anything 24/7/365 on low hydrogen, ergo there are no civilizations at all".
Truth of the matter is probably closer to "relatively few enlightened civilizations, staggered in time". 100 years is far too small a window to rule anything out in that case, in fact, it's laughably small to use as a sample base.
Until we hear something though I have to go with the scientific default, which is disbelief until proof is presented.
#212. To: TooConservative (#211)
But not even one?
OTOH, we could start picking up a flood of SETI traffic tomorrow. You'd immediately see a push for global defense and governance since we would know they had already been receiving our transmissions.
Sound enough.
Replies to Comment # 212. In only a very small handful of years where we've actually been actively listening (since, what, the 1960's I think)? No, gosh, a few centuries or tens of thousands of years may pass between "bursts then silence" from a hypothetical civilization. Even if the frequency of picking up transmissions was every hundred years, we'd still be well within the range of "first signal" probability without having had to have received that first signal. Running under the "few and far spaced out on the time line model" with this of course.
Thanks. It's how I generally approach any topic like this. Sure, something *might* be possible, but until I see proof, I'm not going to indulge in the notion that it is happening necessarily. I will however speculate on things like "if this were true, what would be the outcome", for fun more than anything. :)
End Trace Mode for Comment # 212.