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Title: U.N. VEHICLES BY THE THOUSANDS STAGED IN FLORIDA
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Published: Jun 11, 2010
Author: autocollisionman
Post Date: 2010-06-27 08:11:32 by Itistoolate
Keywords: None
Views: 2067
Comments: 217
Poster Comment: just the right location for results of the "oil spill"
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#177. To: TooConservative (#175)
Not at all. I demonstrated adequately that your beliefs are faith-based and that you can produce no evidence whatsoever. We weren't talking about my comments to you - it was regarding an earlier debate with someone else - unless you used to post as "Alan Chapman". You need to learn to read more carefully before inserting your foot.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Right. So "ambivalent" you had to hijack an entire thread because I made a one-liner crack and a little photo of nutjob two-face Comrade Kucinich. But, yeah, I can see how "ambivalent" you are. It's so obvious really.
Thousands of UN Vehicles and Tons of Equipment Masking At Florida Airbase? UPDATE
I thought you were referring to me since you had directed so many posts my way.
Right. So "ambivalent" you had to hijack an entire thread because I made a one-liner crack and a little photo of nutjob two-face Comrade Kucinich. But, yeah, I can see how "ambivalent" you are. It's so obvious really. I am not ambivalent to the use of false logic and disinformation tactics, which is what you were doing in that post (#15 on this thread). I objected then, and now, to the false assertion that an objective view of the UFO phenomena, or having sighted one, perforce makes one a kook, and your argument to that affect was dishonest and logically fallacious.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
And now that they're gone, no one can prove whether they were U.N. or just surplus vehicles that Kia couldn't get sold in a slow economy. Did Gortz (or his mysterious friend Klaatu) ever consider asking the management who owned them, why they were there. No, that would be too obvious, wouldn't it? That is exactly what They (a.k.a. THEM) would want you to do. But we can fight back, can't we, by posting a few more hysterical webpages with no evidence of anything on them, just a bunch of wild accusations. I guess it's an update, sort of. Hey, maybe the U.N. vans went to where they keep the Black Helicopters. Maybe Gortz could go check into that. Still, thanks for the update. It is more info than we had when the thread started. I first heard about these vans over six months ago. Maybe we will yet find out who owns them and where they went. I'd just like to know, having seen a number of these U.N.-killer-van threads.
I can't tell whether I'm an ignoramus resisting the golden light of your truth (although you are indifferent to such petty matters) or if I am a "disinformation specialist" who you are battling with all your might. I don't think I can be both, at least not credibly.
I didn't ask for a rerun of a link I want to see your documentation of the claim you made.
No links...just a recounting of what I read. Several parts of I-20 in Alabama with those exit ramp barricades were in effect... Traffic back ups for miles.. And at every barricade their were some of those unmarked white vans... These may not be the same vans... Then again I do not think it is a coincidence. People in florida are starting to get sick. Some have had lung failure. MSM has not reported on it but then again they are not reporting on the sick either. And with Hurricane Alex pushing the storm surge in everywhere.... Those folks that have not left yet may be moved in those white Vans.
LOL! Yeah, it would be great to find some intelligent life here on Earth. But so far all I see is dumb and dumber. Sure there are spirits, angels and demons, maybe that is what these people are seeing and not realizing it since they are convinced in their heart that there is no God or no devil. I don't say their mind, because no one is that dumb to not know we were created, they just reject it with all their heart.
God is always good!
(HD)As with all ugly minorities they're after our beautiful white wimmen. What else? (Moi)Genesis 6:1-2 TooConservative asked wtf the aliens would want to do with us. You said they're after our white wimmen. I quoted a verse from the Old Testament saying Exactly that. Genesis 6:1-2 6-1 When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them, 6-2 the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. This verse imo refers to aliens mating with humans. (Male aliens mating with female humans.)(or aliens injecting female humans with their DNA) So we are alien hybrids. Which would explain why we are so very different from every single one of all the species on the planet. It is a theme of every Religion on the planet too.
Not from Mexico. lol
Says who? The Roman Catholic Church effectively became the new Roman Empire, and ruled the Western World for close to 2000 years. Dissent was not allowed, and was met with torture and death.
Is nuclear fission and fusion also a myth? Just because SOME political pressure is placed upon those with a Phd next to their name doesn't mean science is nothing but politicial BS, just as not all preachers are a bunch of money scanvenging vultures eager to fleece the gullible. Einstein isn't the only person to have theorized about worm holes, there are many who carried on with his thoughts and gone much further. That you believe science is the same as selling used cares indicates you aren't very well educated.
Ok, who do YOU think wrote the New Testament?
Ok, since you insist, here's some info for you to digest. I've heard several different speculations to explain our rather strange planet. Two of the more interesting are: 1. That we are the interstellar equivalent of "Botany Bay" i.e., a Penal Colony where all the trouble makers are shipped to. It certainly fits the obstreperous humanity on this planet. 2. That we are an experiment - thus explaining all the different races each of which originated on another planet and so we have our mixed mass of humanity of different types. We are being observed to see how it works out.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I watched a very interesting video about this. It had to do with the Bible and the Freemason literature of Albert Pike I think (others too maybe you know how my memory is). So they're talking about a "secret"... the secret is not in the freemason literature but in the bible. It speaks of the secret in the literature but specifies that the actual secret can only be found in the bible. It goes on to refer to symbology, numerology and several Bible verses. I wish you could watch it. noone222 posted it a while back. One has to look past the heavy religious preaching, but there's some very interesting data in that video. Impossible to deny maybe. Actually, I find this plausible in light of the lost technology of the pyramids and other reasons.
I see no reason why he should be offended by a straightforward post of the truth. Unfortunately, I sense that he practices self deception in order to nip and tuck inconvenient truths into irrelevance in order to reconcile them with his understanding of the natural order.
It seems to me like everything points to it one way or another.
Ah, you mean alien aliens. ;)
LOL. Seriously though, we are quite intelligent as a species. The range of intelligence varies, but even your average Special Olympics participant is light years ahead of our closest relatives, chimps and bonobos, intellectually. It's all good fun to consider ourselves "dumb", but end of the day "dumb" doesn't build skyscrapers, space craft or nanobots, or even mundane things like canteens. And "dumb" certainly doesn't contemplate the meaning of life, or the state of matter occupied by light, as a leisure activity while toying around on computers it built which perform millions of precise mathematical calculations every half second.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
And how do we view the aborigines or the isolated uncivilized human tribes? A starfaring race would consider us quaint at best. Or just a delicious entree. Hollyweird has managed to generally create an idea of benevolent aliens in most people's minds.
Sorry, how are we so different from all the other species of animals on the planet? Genetically we're nearly identical to chimps, bonobos, and we're pretty damned close to the other major great apes as well. Heck, we share a lion's portion of DNA with animals even as "low" on the ladder as lizards and fish. Our brains are constructed like every other great ape's brain, only with more development and folds and size. Heck, disappear humans today this second and 2 million years from now I wouldn't bet against another line of great apes walking in our shoes in the self awareness department (heck, some chimps are self aware, so the battle is nearly fought before its started). It seems absolutely in line with how primates function, we just happened to win the race first. Heck, go even further back and you can find intelligence developing in other animals. It seems to be the very nature of this planet, at least since the dinosaurs were wiped out, and even then there's some pretty interesting theories on the intelligence of raptors (and their only direct living descendants, birds). Goldfish, for goodness sake, are more intelligent than we realize and can learn and be trained and have persistent memory, which sounds like no big deal for, say, a dog, but for a goldfish? That's startling. Nah, my friend, we fit into this planet perfectly. Our blood is sea water, our physique perfectly in line with how other animals developed, and our intellect in line with the general evolutionary thrust of this planet for countless eons. In fact there is no way we *do not* fit here that would make us dissimilar to other species, if one takes the full scope of evolutionary history into account. While I have no opinion on "alien intervention" (well, I do, but you may not like it), our presence here is easily seen to be a pretty predictable walk down the path of evolution, in my view.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
That simply has nothing to do with whether we're intelligent or not. Intelligence does not guarantee a "moral" or benign outcome, nor an amoral or evil outcome. Even the very concept of pondering things like "how do we see..." displays intellect that you'll never, ever encounter in any other living species. Or, an interesting discovery of a new culture and civilization which they'd wish to learn about. I don't know about you, but if you placed me back on continental Europe in the year 300 AD I'd be fascinated to study the indigenous Celtic populations. Sure, they wouldn't have microcomputers or cars or nuclear bombs or stealth aircraft or moon faring space ships, but their technological level would have nothing to do with their innate intelligence, culture, poetry, art or other interesting things. I'd be no better than them from a "superiority" standpoint, just because I came from a point in time that had all of the artifacts I mentioned. And that's just human to human. Think of all of the exploration and study you could do, intellectually, with an entirely different self aware intelligent alien species! All of your assumptions would be challenged, everything would seem new by observing them, and your perceptions of the universe would be expanded. Technological advancement is not the panacea of intellectual measurement, iow. "Aliens" can be on the same intellectual level as us, but have a couple of thousand more years head start on technology, and their technology would look like magic to us. But, again, their intellectual level would be the same. Maybe they'd be benign, or not, or simply neutral. We, for example, have learned somewhat from our encounters with each other over the centuries. We're still struggling, but that doesn't mean we haven't learned. I suspect the same would apply to "them" only with some more time under their belts.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Life then was generally pretty crude. I don't think you'd find it so charming after a few months. Or a few days. And how often has that happened here when Europeans met up with primitive tribes? You have a few like Sir Richard Burton at the fringes that no one pays much attention to. And the superior culture conquers the inferior over and over. You wish to believe they would share a simian curiosity, like ours. That would be almost impossible. A starfaring race would of necessity have entirely different qualities and values from our own. You should assume they are far more different than like us. The reason we don't pick up radio traffic from other civilizations may be telling. What if a predator race is out there, just waiting to pounce on any radio signal source? Those old reruns of I Love Lucy could have summoned an invasion fleet, already inbound to us. The SETI project raises interesting questions. Since development of radio is so fundamental to technology, why don't we hear from other civilizations, their Lucy reruns at least? Or their Rush Limbaugh? That silence points to an empty universe. Or, less likely, to predator race(s) waiting to pounce on radio signals. I think an empty universe is more likely despite all the folks on this thread ranting over billions upon billions upon billions of stars, like some bad version of Carl Sagan. Let's grant that there are millions or billions or even trillions of galaxies for the sake of argument. Again, if this is so, then the numerical argument made that life must be common Out There turns against those who assume there must be intelligent life out there. If there are so many planets with intelligent life, we should have an E.T. channel on cable already with the E.T. version of I Love Lucy reruns. I suspect life, as it is on Earth, is truly freak-of-nature stuff. A real cosmic accident. There are so many things that have to be just right for us to live on this planet. We don't appreciate how delicate these balances are that allow for life on Earth. I don't doubt that there are many star systems with planets. What I doubt is that such perfect accidents that allow for life to develop and intelligence to emerge is anywhere near as common as some of you would like, with no evidence, to believe. You believe it because you wish it to be true. This general denial you all seem to have that aliens could be truly malevolent underscores this naiveté.
What has that to do with anything? Life in the Amazon jungle is crude, yet people go there to study indigenous tribes. What has that to do with intelligence levels? You may note, I said we've learned but are still struggling. Actually it would be impossible not to have curiosity and to still develop high technology. You don't get science unless you're first curious about how the universe functions. There is no Aristotelian necessarily that I see. I would assume that they would, indeed, have different qualities and values than ours, but then, that's just an assumption. In the end we won't know until we're staring them in the antennae. I do, but then I also assume some basic things about intelligence and curiosity that I believe might well be universal. I've thought about this before. It may well be that we're looking ONLY for a civilization exactly as advanced, or close to us, and missing the big picture. If you're scanning the mountains for smoke signals, it stands to reason that you're only looking for people who would use smoke signals. The race you've never met but who lives thousands of miles away, who uses satellites to communicate, would not exist to your observations, nor would you exist to their observations. Well, then we're screwed already and no use being upset by it. Lock and load. :) Only if you're using smoke signals as your "signal" to determine life out there, ya' know? Who knows, I guess. That's not an illogical view, and probably is more likely to be true than the opposite. That framework view may shift a bit, however, if even basic life is found in places like Europa or other "close" planets/moons. What's also to consider is the bacteria type life that appears on the seabed floors living near volcanic vents, devoid of sun or really any life sustaining substances we know of. It's one of those things that we'll know when we know, or never know. Whatcanyado? Ultimately I'm more inclined to agree with your view of an empty universe than I am to the one that has space aliens coming here on holiday to drink some margaritas during the time of the Aztecs.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
On Earth. We have no idea of the biology or conditions of life. Other planets could have something innate to them by which a grasp of physics and chemistry is fundamental to higher life forms (unlike humans that wandered around in caves oblivious to scientific principle). Of course, we can't know what we don't know. I still say the odds are that any alien life is far more alien than we can imagine. I'm trying to underscore here that you are anthropomorphizing these hypothetical aliens. Exactly. True enough. But any civilization would detect the vast amount of radio traffic we blare into space in all directions. Advanced civilizations might be using quantum communications, having abandoned radio thousands of years ago. Or they may be telepathic and/or have no language or visual medium like ours. But is it likely that out of those billions of billions of stars that no other race is using radio? Again, the numerical argument turns against you, not for you. In the entire universe, there are no other radio-using civilizations at approximately our stage? Seems strange, no? Of course, an advanced civilization may have no interest whatsoever in other civilizations. None, zero, nada, zip. Entirely possible. Much as China and Japan regarded the West. It isn't unusual here on our own planet. Or stay skinny so you're the last one eaten by our alien overlords. Still, that silence is deafening to the argument that billions of billions of stars must produce intelligent life. I think any kind of life is probably more precious than we know at present. The evidence from our own solar system argues that a verdant planet, even something that can sustain life at the level we have in the Sahara (or some bacteria on Mars or Europa) may be incredibly rare. Of course, we are excluding the sheer amount of time that it takes for light or radio waves to travel interstellar distances. Assume that life is on one of thousand planets at average distances of a hundred light years apart. So there could be a incoming wave of radio traffic suddenly appear at any time, (just as they would be receiving our radio signals starting with the old radio broadcasts). That would be true for an advanced planet with radio technology within one hundred lights years distance. So perhaps we haven't been listening long enough. That would not account for lack of signals that have been traveling toward us for hundreds or thousands or millions of years. Again, that silence is deafening to the argument for the commonality of life. And it is difficult to believe that any advanced civilization would not make some use of radio signals during a fairly long period of their development. It would seem unlikely that you could jump to quantum or subspace communications from the beginning. If there are other civilizations out there, I suspect that they would be on average thousands of lights years apart unless located toward the center of their galaxy. And our position in the outer spiral arm of our galaxy does work somewhat against us. And being located closer in toward the galactic core makes it more likely that supernovae and other phenomenon would destroy advanced life there. Also greater hazards from rogue comets or even rogue planets in a denser area. Out here, we're far safer unless a nearby star like Alpha Centauri goes nova. We may find that life is only possible in relatively quiet galactic backwaters like where we are located which again argues against any other civilizations being within reach of ourselves for communication or for visiting/colonizing. All those stars and planets. And yet not one radio signal of artificial origin...
LOL. Bit of a stretch to have an innate grasp of quantum physics, don't you think? Why, no, not at all. We've only had radio powerful enough to fling it all out there for what, ~90 - ~100 years? There could have come and gone a billion civilizations using radio who moved on to other forms (or perished) in the time since earth was formed. The chances of another civilization at our exact stage, at this time, close enough to pick up their transmissions in something approaching real time (meaning, within a thousand years of transmission) seems exceedingly low to me to be almost statistically negligible. We didn't all start at the same point in time, presumably. All of the lack of smoke signals is deafening to the argument that there are hundreds of tribes of aborigines in central and south America. That's precisely my point. Another point is, other civs may never have thought to use radio to communicate. Maybe they went to light communications at our stage (which we do as well to an extent, with fiber optics), which would dissipate quickly after a certain distance. Presuming radio has to be on the time line is telling me you believe that "they" are more like us than you've previously indicated. :) Or, maybe those have already come and gone before Marconni set up his first receiver set. Perhaps homo erectus caught the first transmissions of I Love Mandark, neanderthals were bombarded with toothpaste commercials for centuries and never, ever knew it, and neolithic man was pelted with a smaller scattering of space craft communications as distant craft orbited distant stars a million years ago. The signals stop completely by the time Plato hits the scene, and then by the 1920's there is nothing but static silence. Or maybe they don't sit around on the low hydrogen bandwidth like SETI assumes. Or, we may have missed the first batch from 100,000 light years out, and by the time the next batch arrives from, say, 150,000 light years, we'll be 50,000 years in the future from now. Distance, space and exact levels of technology don't play well together, numbers wise. Why? You can modulate light and produce sound from it, quite easily, even without lasers. Who really knows if radio is a requirement. And I've yet to see a single smoke signal from south America, here in Ohio. Go figure. Fact is, if we hear anything at all, the odds will be astronomical that it occurred. Personally I think we're tilting at windmills with SETI. Something might come of it, but nothing we can use long term, other than "we're not alone". Whomever might transmit that we receive will be either long dead or long moved on. The bottle in the ocean scenario I went over yesterday.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
And you believe that aliens couldn't be malevolent because you can't fathom the human race acting in a malevolent manner. It's called projection. Consider that the ET's might actually be enlightened, even if only a very slim group of humans ever get there. With the idiocy of humans having nukes, aliens might want to keep an eye on humans because they are so destructive. Perhaps, out of their own sense of self preservation for the universe in which they live, wherein, as you just mused, one event could create a chain reaction that could impair a life chain somewhere. Maybe the ET's want to watch but not get too close for fear of poison. I think we can all relate to how toxic humans can be. Simple probabilities move life on other planets beyond a freak of nature possibility to a most likely scenario. Humans are very short sighted. Humans have an ingrained need to anthromporphasize everything. Aliens, perhaps, don't have this flaws.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Not at all. There are some very strange regions of space our astronomers cannot make any sense out of. Altogether different elements are in play. I was trying to illustrate how strange the universe is, how much variety there is even in elementary particles that we barely have scratched the surface of. No, the chances are not that low if there really are so many other civilizations out there. Even if they don't possess hearing, they would have plenty of uses for radio. Unlikely. Light, via lasers or whatever, isn't a very good carrier wave outside optical fiber. Radio is much more flexible and easier to use. Quantum communications is certainly possible for us and one of its most attractive features is how easily you can make it uncrackable to a non-paired receiver. Secure far beyond anything you could do with radio or wired signals. Besides, without radio, how would Ruxh Lypmbqoxtfk broadcast to all the right-wing squid on planet Brztoatlxb? I think you're being contrarian here. I'm not going to explain why radio is such a fundamental technology to any technical society. Even if their planet or planetary system is hostile to use of radio, the discovery of it is pretty essential. And you haven't explained why, with millions of other civilizations out there, why none of them can at present be detected broadcasting any radio signals. According to you, the universe is teeming with these civilizations and not all can be using light or quantum or whatever for communications. I notice how you seem to have retreated considerably from your earlier posts. Not if there are millions, perhaps billions, of other life-bearing planets out there. You're getting hung by your own Carl Saganish numbers. Just admit it.
You misread me. I was the one saying that starfaring aliens would be more likely to eat us than to converse with us. Our progress in space has slowed to a standstill. I have begun to believe our civilization is as likely to fall into a dark age than it is to make significant progress in mining the asteroid belt, building cities in space, establishing colonies even on Mars, let alone anywhere less hospitable. We've left that final frontier behind, short-sighted as that obviously is. So aliens would have no reason to fear we will leave our system. Unless life on earth is an even bigger freak of nature than we know. And we know how many things here on earth had to be just right, not a few percent more or less, for us to even live. Blame the damned apes for our simian ways.
I'm not "retreating", I'm simply pointing out the flaws in your assumptions. It doesn't mean I believe that "somebody" is "out there". If I discuss coffee cups with somebody, and state that I like blue cups, and somebody else starts telling me how red cups aren't made, and I point out the various red cups around the room, it doesn't mean that I've reversed my position on blue cups. The only numbers I'm getting "hung on" are the ones you're putting forth telling me that somehow, there would be constant reception of WUFO radio. It just makes no sense and assumes too many things that may well be specific to humans. It also relies far too heavily on the notion that the universe is populated nose to toes with advanced civilizations. I've not claimed a crowded universe, at all, so I'm not entirely certain what you're arguing. At best, I suspect that if alien life exists it's much rarer than presumed, which would explain the dearth of radio signals, while still allowing for their possible reception in the future. You seem to be saying "bajillions of civilizations is the standard, I don't hear anything 24/7/365 on low hydrogen, ergo there are no civilizations at all". Truth of the matter is probably closer to "relatively few enlightened civilizations, staggered in time". 100 years is far too small a window to rule anything out in that case, in fact, it's laughably small to use as a sample base. Like taking today's weather, right now in Ohio, and extrapolating the future weather of the planet for the next 10,000 years. Until we hear something though I have to go with the scientific default, which is disbelief until proof is presented.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
But not even one? You aren't exactly in the same camp with all the little Sagans on the thread relying on the billions-and-billions vacuous thinking. I probably tarred you with all their comments even though you don't go the distance like they do. No denying it. We do overestimate what we know. OTOH, we could start picking up a flood of SETI traffic tomorrow. You'd immediately see a push for global defense and governance since we would know they had already been receiving our transmissions. If the broadcast started with, "Peoples of the Earth,...", I would be scared out of my wits. I'd much rather have the re-runs of "I Love Lzutcxyp". Sound enough.
In only a very small handful of years where we've actually been actively listening (since, what, the 1960's I think)? No, gosh, a few centuries or tens of thousands of years may pass between "bursts then silence" from a hypothetical civilization. Even if the frequency of picking up transmissions was every hundred years, we'd still be well within the range of "first signal" probability without having had to have received that first signal. Running under the "few and far spaced out on the time line model" with this of course. No question. Even if the bulk of humanity said "hey, neat", the politicians would use it as an event to coordinate a massive global movement (and of course, global government). Thanks. It's how I generally approach any topic like this. Sure, something *might* be possible, but until I see proof, I'm not going to indulge in the notion that it is happening necessarily. I will however speculate on things like "if this were true, what would be the outcome", for fun more than anything. :)
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
You are more thoughtful than those who use the sheer numbers of star systems to suppose that there are thousands of civilizations in our own galaxy, millions or billions in nearby galaxies. If they suddenly announced contact with E.T., I'd be suspicious they were false-flagging us anyway to justify more power grabs, massive spending, planetary defense, etc. So would a lot of other people.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
What floors me, is that there is this idiotic assumption that we aren't being talked to already. Radio is primitive. Surely aliens more advanced than us, would use something completely different, and completely off the scale where speed is concerned, compared to our primitive means. We could be receiving messages right now, and not even know it, because we don't have the technology to pick it up. Our technology could be so backward to them, it would be pointless to contact us until we DID have the technology to receive their messages. Then there's the other possibility that they've been here among us for millenia, and we never knew it.
It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.
Some kind of instant quantum communications maybe? Chances still seem very strong that any civilization will go through an extended period of radio signal use. It's relatively simple and cheap.
at was supposed to be his magnum opus which would totally refute my position.
#178. To: Original_Intent (#176)
If you wish to relieve yourself of your ignorance then fine. If not then fine. I am quite ambivalent upon the matter.
#179. To: TooConservative (#178)
#180. To: Original_Intent (#177)
We weren't talking about my comments to you - it was regarding an earlier debate with someone else - unless you used to post as "Alan Chapman". You need to learn to read more carefully before inserting your foot.
#181. To: TooConservative (#178)
If you wish to relieve yourself of your ignorance then fine. If not then fine. I am quite ambivalent upon the matter.
#182. To: Itistoolate (#179)
(Edited)
Thousands of UN Vehicles and Tons of Equipment Masking At Florida Airbase? UPDATE
Update: As of now there is confirmation that there are currently NO vehicles present at this moment. It appears the vehicles have been moved between Feb. and now. Thanks to a dedicated Intel Soldier known as Gortz, we have solved this one. We will keep you posted if anything changes. For the people that believe that Kia Motors stored that many vehicles of the same model in a private airport, wow…
#183. To: Original_Intent (#181)
I am not ambivalent to the use of false logic and disinformation tactics, which is what you were doing in that post (#15 on this thread). I objected then, and now, to the false assertion that an objective view of the UFO phenomena, or having sighted one, perforce makes one a kook, and your argument to that affect was dishonest and logically fallacious.
#184. To: FormerLurker (#116)
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#185. To: TooConservative (#182)
And now that they're gone, no one can prove whether they were U.N. or just surplus vehicles that Kia couldn't get sold in a slow economy.
#186. To: TooConservative (#167)
And you still think we should look for intelligent life on other planets? LOL. Maybe you should try to find some here on Earth first.
#187. To: HOUNDDAWG, abraxas, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, buckeroo, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty (#162)
(Edited)
(TC)"If intelligent life does exist Out There, why in the world would they be interested in the human race?"
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#188. To: All (#187)
aliens
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#189. To: Rotara (#148)
...Jesus came to abolish religion and create relationship with the Living God Almighty directly.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#190. To: RickyJ (#161)
Just as the current power structure has built up the myth of human caused global warming, those before them built up the myth of Einstien's genius and time travel.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#191. To: IRTorqued (#184)
I didn't ask for a rerun of a link I want to see your documentation of the claim you made.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#192. To: IRTorqued (#184)
I didn't ask for a rerun of a link I want to see your documentation of the claim you made.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#193. To: wudidiz (#187)
#194. To: Original_Intent, HOUNDDAWG, noone222 (#193)
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#195. To: wudidiz (#187)
So we are alien hybrids. Which would explain why we are so very different from every single one of all the species on the planet. It is a theme of every Religion on the planet too.
#196. To: Original_Intent, TooConservative (#174)
It had built up over a couple other threads with varied exchanges. That was supposed to be his magnum opus which would totally refute my position. Do you think I was too harsh on him. ;-)
#197. To: HOUNDDAWG (#195)
Actually, I find this plausible in light of the lost technology of the pyramids and other reasons.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#198. To: wudidiz (#188)
Not from Mexico.
#199. To: TooConservative (#163)
You assume we are anything close to intelligent. The evidence is awfully thin for it. We are little removed from cavemen with clubs and enough knowledge to start a fire.
#200. To: SonOfLiberty (#199)
It's all good fun to consider ourselves "dumb", but end of the day "dumb" doesn't build skyscrapers, space craft or nanobots, or even mundane things like canteens. And "dumb" certainly doesn't contemplate the meaning of life, or the state of matter occupied by light, as a leisure activity while toying around on computers it built which perform millions of precise mathematical calculations every half second.
#201. To: wudidiz (#187)
So we are alien hybrids. Which would explain why we are so very different from every single one of all the species on the planet. It is a theme of every Religion on the planet too.
#202. To: TooConservative (#200)
And how do we view the aborigines or the isolated uncivilized human tribes?
A starfaring race would consider us quaint at best. Or just a delicious entree.
#203. To: SonOfLiberty, wudidiz, RickyJ, Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#202)
Sure, they wouldn't have microcomputers or cars or nuclear bombs or stealth aircraft or moon faring space ships, but their technological level would have nothing to do with their innate intelligence, culture, poetry, art or other interesting things.
And that's just human to human. Think of all of the exploration and study you could do, intellectually, with an entirely different self aware intelligent alien species! All of your assumptions would be challenged, everything would seem new by observing them, and your perceptions of the universe would be expanded.
Technological advancement is not the panacea of intellectual measurement, iow. "Aliens" can be on the same intellectual level as us, but have a couple of thousand more years head start on technology, and their technology would look like magic to us. But, again, their intellectual level would be the same. Maybe they'd be benign, or not, or simply neutral.
#204. To: TooConservative (#203)
Life then was generally pretty crude. I don't think you'd find it so charming after a few months. Or a few days.
And how often has that happened here when Europeans met up with primitive tribes? You have a few like Sir Richard Burton at the fringes that no one pays much attention to. And the superior culture conquers the inferior over and over.
You wish to believe they would share a simian curiosity, like ours. That would be almost impossible.
A starfaring race would of necessity have entirely different qualities and values from our own.
You should assume they are far more different than like us.
The reason we don't pick up radio traffic from other civilizations may be telling.
What if a predator race is out there, just waiting to pounce on any radio signal source? Those old reruns of I Love Lucy could have summoned an invasion fleet, already inbound to us.
I think an empty universe is more likely despite all the folks on this thread ranting over billions upon billions upon billions of stars, like some bad version of Carl Sagan. Let's grant that there are millions or billions or even trillions of galaxies for the sake of argument. Again, if this is so, then the numerical argument made that life must be common Out There turns against those who assume there must be intelligent life out there. If there are so many planets with intelligent life, we should have an E.T. channel on cable already with the E.T. version of I Love Lucy reruns.
I suspect life, as it is on Earth, is truly freak-of-nature stuff. A real cosmic accident. There are so many things that have to be just right for us to live on this planet.
#205. To: SonOfLiberty, wudidiz, RickyJ, Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#204)
(Edited)
Actually it would be impossible not to have curiosity and to still develop high technology. You don't get science unless you're first curious about how the universe functions.
I do, but then I also assume some basic things about intelligence and curiosity that I believe might well be universal.
I've thought about this before. It may well be that we're looking ONLY for a civilization exactly as advanced, or close to us, and missing the big picture. If you're scanning the mountains for smoke signals, it stands to reason that you're only looking for people who would use smoke signals. The race you've never met but who lives thousands of miles away, who uses satellites to communicate, would not exist to your observations, nor would you exist to their observations.
Well, then we're screwed already and no use being upset by it. Lock and load. :)
Only if you're using smoke signals as your "signal" to determine life out there, ya' know? Who knows, I guess.
That's not an illogical view, and probably is more likely to be true than the opposite. That framework view may shift a bit, however, if even basic life is found in places like Europa or other "close" planets/moons. What's also to consider is the bacteria type life that appears on the seabed floors living near volcanic vents, devoid of sun or really any life sustaining substances we know of. It's one of those things that we'll know when we know, or never know.
#206. To: TooConservative (#205)
Other planets could have something innate to them by which a grasp of physics and chemistry is fundamental to higher life forms (unlike humans that wandered around in caves oblivious to scientific principle).
But is it likely that out of those billions of billions of stars that no other race is using radio? Again, the numerical argument turns against you, not for you. In the entire universe, there are no other radio-using civilizations at approximately our stage? Seems strange, no?
Still, that silence is deafening to the argument that billions of billions of stars must produce intelligent life.
That would be true for an advanced planet with radio technology within one hundred lights years distance. So perhaps we haven't been listening long enough.
That would not account for lack of signals that have been traveling toward us for hundreds or thousands or millions of years.
And it is difficult to believe that any advanced civilization would not make some use of radio signals during a fairly long period of their development.
All those stars and planets. And yet not one radio signal of artificial origin..
#207. To: TooConservative (#203)
You believe it because you wish it to be true. This general denial you all seem to have that aliens could be truly malevolent underscores this naiveté.
#208. To: SonOfLiberty (#206)
(Edited)
LOL. Bit of a stretch to have an innate grasp of quantum physics, don't you think?
There could have come and gone a billion civilizations using radio who moved on to other forms (or perished) in the time since earth was formed. The chances of another civilization at our exact stage, at this time, close enough to pick up their transmissions in something approaching real time (meaning, within a thousand years of transmission) seems exceedingly low to me to be almost statistically negligible.
The signals stop completely by the time Plato hits the scene, and then by the 1920's there is nothing but static silence. Or maybe they don't sit around on the low hydrogen bandwidth like SETI assumes. Or, we may have missed the first batch from 100,000 light years out, and by the time the next batch arrives from, say, 150,000 light years, we'll be 50,000 years in the future from now. Distance, space and exact levels of technology don't play well together, numbers wise.
Another point is, other civs may never have thought to use radio to communicate. Maybe they went to light communications at our stage (which we do as well to an extent, with fiber optics), which would dissipate quickly after a certain distance. Presuming radio has to be on the time line is telling me you believe that "they" are more like us than you've previously indicated. :)
Why? You can modulate light and produce sound from it, quite easily, even without lasers. Who really knows if radio is a requirement.
And I've yet to see a single smoke signal from south America, here in Ohio. Go figure. Fact is, if we hear anything at all, the odds will be astronomical that it occurred. Personally I think we're tilting at windmills with SETI. Something might come of it, but nothing we can use long term, other than "we're not alone". Whomever might transmit that we receive will be either long dead or long moved on. The bottle in the ocean scenario I went over yesterday.
#209. To: abraxas (#207)
And you believe that aliens couldn't be malevolent because you can't fathom the human race acting in a malevolent manner.
With the idiocy of humans having nukes, aliens might want to keep an eye on humans because they are so destructive. Perhaps, out of their own sense of self preservation for the universe in which they live, wherein, as you just mused, one event could create a chain reaction that could impair a life chain somewhere. Maybe the ET's want to watch but not get too close for fear of poison. I think we can all relate to how toxic humans can be.
Simple probabilities move life on other planets beyond a freak of nature possibility to a most likely scenario.
Humans are very short sighted. Humans have an ingrained need to anthromporphasize everything. Aliens, perhaps, don't have this flaws.
#210. To: TooConservative (#208)
#211. To: SonOfLiberty (#210)
The only numbers I'm getting "hung on" are the ones you're putting forth telling me that somehow, there would be constant reception of WUFO radio. It just makes no sense and assumes too many things that may well be specific to humans. It also relies far too heavily on the notion that the universe is populated nose to toes with advanced civilizations. I've not claimed a crowded universe, at all, so I'm not entirely certain what you're arguing. At best, I suspect that if alien life exists it's much rarer than presumed, which would explain the dearth of radio signals, while still allowing for their possible reception in the future. You seem to be saying "bajillions of civilizations is the standard, I don't hear anything 24/7/365 on low hydrogen, ergo there are no civilizations at all".
Truth of the matter is probably closer to "relatively few enlightened civilizations, staggered in time". 100 years is far too small a window to rule anything out in that case, in fact, it's laughably small to use as a sample base.
Until we hear something though I have to go with the scientific default, which is disbelief until proof is presented.
#212. To: TooConservative (#211)
But not even one?
OTOH, we could start picking up a flood of SETI traffic tomorrow. You'd immediately see a push for global defense and governance since we would know they had already been receiving our transmissions.
Sound enough.
#213. To: SonOfLiberty (#212)
In only a very small handful of years where we've actually been actively listening (since, what, the 1960's I think)? No, gosh, a few centuries or tens of thousands of years may pass between "bursts then silence" from a hypothetical civilization. Even if the frequency of picking up transmissions was every hundred years, we'd still be well within the range of "first signal" probability without having had to have received that first signal. Running under the "few and far spaced out on the time line model" with this of course.
Thanks. It's how I generally approach any topic like this. Sure, something *might* be possible, but until I see proof, I'm not going to indulge in the notion that it is happening necessarily. I will however speculate on things like "if this were true, what would be the outcome", for fun more than anything. :)
#214. To: FormerLurker (#116)
#215. To: FormerLurker (#116)
#216. To: TooConservative (#211)
#217. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#216)
What floors me, is that there is this idiotic assumption that we aren't being talked to already. Radio is primitive. Surely aliens more advanced than us, would use something completely different, and completely off the scale where speed is concerned, compared to our primitive means. We could be receiving messages right now, and not even know it, because we don't have the technology to pick it up.
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