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Title: The Sweet Smell of Victory
Source: Myself
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jul 2, 2010
Author: ghostdogtxn
Post Date: 2010-07-02 16:42:07 by ghostdogtxn
Keywords: None
Views: 694
Comments: 37

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 11.

#7. To: ghostdogtxn (#0) (Edited)

I think being a libertarian means that I support the right of people to move freely about to find a better life, even if it means crossing some line in the sand, and even if that line is a border.

....but not if that "line in the sand" or that border happens to be the edge of your own lot or acreage. Or the inside of your house or home. It becomes a matter of degree, or.........it's OK in your backyard but not in MY backyard! :)

Bub  posted on  2010-07-02   19:42:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I think being a libertarian means that I support the right of people to move freely about to find a better life, even if it means crossing some line in the sand, and even if that line is a border.

....but not if that "line in the sand" or that border happens to be the edge of your own lot or acreage. Or the inside of your house or home. It becomes a matter of degree, or.........it's OK in your backyard but not in MY backyard! :)

This the argument that basically I would have made.

A property line is not merely an arbitrary "line in the sand" it is a demarcation establishing the boundaries of an ownership right. And certainly the right to own property is a libertarian principle, as is a contract.

The boundaries of a country are lines establishing the property line i.e., ownership. How that property is maintained and defended is governed by law. The law is established upon the basis of a contract called the Constitution, both of the nation and of the state. The use of that property and the right of use are established by those rules and laws which establish an ownership share called citizenship. As a legal citizen a person is party to the aforementioned contract and as such has an ownership right as delineated by the covenants we call law.

An illegal alien is someone not a party to the contract nor ceded a limited use such as a Green Card. They are basically trespassing unlawfully upon the property of another i.e., the citizens of the United States. As such they are in violation of the property rights of another and should be dealt with as such i.e., kicked out.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-02   20:52:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

An illegal alien is someone not a party to the contract nor ceded a limited use such as a Green Card. They are basically trespassing unlawfully upon the property of another i.e., the citizens of the United States. As such they are in violation of the property rights of another and should be dealt with as such i.e., kicked out.

Man has always needed and demanded a social order. Someone has to be in charge.

Libertarians would deny this, until someone infringes upon their turf, and THEN they want recourse.

Established order of some kind has ALWAYS been the norm, the free will, if it feels good do it philosophy, has never ruled and never will.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-07-02   21:01:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#17. To: Cynicom (#11)

An illegal alien is someone not a party to the contract nor ceded a limited use such as a Green Card. They are basically trespassing unlawfully upon the property of another i.e., the citizens of the United States. As such they are in violation of the property rights of another and should be dealt with as such i.e., kicked out.

Man has always needed and demanded a social order. Someone has to be in charge.

Libertarians would deny this, until someone infringes upon their turf, and THEN they want recourse.

Established order of some kind has ALWAYS been the norm, the free will, if it feels good do it philosophy, has never ruled and never will.

Which is why I am a PaleoLibertarian as opposed to the more modern, and currently fashionable, fetish of Anarcho-Libertarianism. You are quite right, man wants order, and in his highest state brings order to the world around him/her. I once had a protracted argument on LF on the point with a well spoken and ardent anarcho-capitalist. The Paleolibertarian viewpoint is basically what an anarchist calls minarchism - or minimal government. The upshot being, and my position in the argument, is because of this desire to bring order to the environment anarchism, the pure theoretical kind, simply cannot exist, and if it did for even a short time then some form of order, whether good or bad, would come about. Whether it be by the local chief thug subjugating everyone in the vicinity or by the formation of that which we once had - a Constitutional Republic. Free will still exists but there are rational boundaries in a sane an civil society. The old saw being that "your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose". In a society of more than one then there will always be limits to the pure exercise of free will, but I am not enslaved by the obligation to be a good neighbor as it is reciprocal - in a sane society.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-02 22:09:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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