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Science/Tech
See other Science/Tech Articles

Title: Should We Nuke The Oil Well?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2010/07/should-we-nuke-oil-well.html
Published: Jul 3, 2010
Author: Washington's Blog
Post Date: 2010-07-03 11:14:53 by christine
Keywords: None
Views: 187
Comments: 16

CBS News, the Christian Science Monitor, CNN, Reuters and Fox (and see this) have all asked whether BP should nuke its leaking oil well.

Indeed, some high-level Russian nuclear scientists and oil industry experts have suggested such an approach to stop the Gulf oil gusher. Here is archival footage of the Russians killing a gas leak with a nuclear device.

And Obama's energy secretary and Nobel prize winning physicist Steven Chu included the man who helped develop the first hydrogen bomb in the 1950s as part of the 5-man brain trust tasked with stopping the oil.

And oil industry expert Matt Simmons proposes the use of a tactical nuclear device every time he is interviewed on national television.

However, even the history of Russia's successful use of nuclear devices to stop gushers has some important caveats.

As Reuters notes (unless new links are provided, links for all cited articles are provided at the beginning of this essay):

Vladimir Chuprov from Greenpeace's Moscow office is even more insistent that BP not heed the advice of the veteran Soviet physicists. Chuprov disputes the veterans' accounts of the peaceful explosions and says several of the gas leaks reappeared later. "What was praised as a success and a breakthrough by the Soviet Union is in essence a lie," he says.

[Former long-time Russian Minister of nuclear energy and veteran Soviet physicist Viktor] Mikhailov agrees that the USSR had to give up its program because of problems it presented. "I ended the program because I knew how worthless this all was," he says with a sigh. "Radioactive material was still seeping through cracks in the ground and spreading into the air. It wasn't worth it."

As the Christian Science Monitor points out:

The Russians previously used nukes at least five times to seal off gas well fires. … Komsomoloskaya Pravda suggested that the United States might as well take a chance with a nuke, based on the historical 20% failure rate. Still, the Soviet experience with nuking underground gas wells could prove easier in retrospect than trying to seal the Gulf of Mexico’s oil well disaster that’s taking place 5,000 feet below the surface. The Russians were using nukes to extinguish gas well fires in natural gas fields, not sealing oil wells gushing liquid, so there are big differences, and this method has never been tested in such conditions. As CBS News reports, not all of the Russians nukes worked:

But not each use of nuclear energy did the trick. A 4 kiloton charge set off in Russia's Kharkov region failed to stop a gas blowout. "The explosion was mysteriously left on the surface, forming a mushroom cloud," the paper reported.

Indeed, several experts have said that nuking the well might make the situation worse.

For example, Reuters notes:

There is a chance any blast could fracture the seabed and cause an underground blowout, according to Andy Radford, petroleum engineer and American Petroleum Institute senior policy adviser on offshore issues. CNN points out that nuking the leaking well could conceivably destabilize other oil wells miles away.

The New York Times reports:

Government and private nuclear experts agreed that using a nuclear bomb would be ... risky technically, with unknown and possibly disastrous consequences from radiation ....

A senior Los Alamos scientist, speaking on the condition of anonymity because his comments were unauthorized, ridiculed the idea of using a nuclear blast to solve the crisis in the gulf.

“It’s not going to happen,” he said. “Technically, it would be exploring new ground in the midst of a disaster — and you might make it worse.”

And one of the world's top physicists - string theorist Michio Kaku - writes:

I think this is a bad idea, from a physics point of view. Let me say that my mentor while I was in high school and at Harvard, Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, was a firm advocate of using nuclear weapons to dig out canals and other grand engineering projects.

***

Underground, we then have a hollow sphere of vaporized gas, with walls that have been glassified from the sand. This hollow sphere is stable from a few hours to a few days, but eventually the weight of the rock collapses the sphere. The result is a sudden collapse of the sphere, often releasing radioactive gas into the environment.

***

If this takes place under the sea floor (which has never been done before), there are bound to be complications. First, there would be the release of dangerous, water-soluble chemicals such as radioactive iodine, strontium, and cesium, which would contaminate the food chain in the Gulf. Second, the "seal" created by the glassified sand is probably unstable. And third, it might actually make the problem worse, creating many mini leaks on the ocean floor. Determining the precise effect of such an underwater blast would depend on crucial computer simulations of the various layers of rock under the seafloor, which has never been done before.

In other words, this would bea huge science experiment, with unintended consequences. Furthermore, with hurricane season upon us, and predictions of eight or more hurricanes for this season, it means that seawater several hundred feet below the surface of the water could be churned up and then deposited over the South. This seawater, containing oils and radioactive fission products, would magnify the environmental problem.

In summary, it is not a good idea to use nukes to seal up oil leaks.

Moreover, former President Bill Clinton told CNN on Sunday (starting 3:13 into video) that he has looked into the issue, and that a nuke is not needed. He said the Navy can use conventional explosives to seal the well. As the former commander-in-chief, Clinton is probably getting such information from someone high up in the Navy.

For more on the nuclear option, see this.


Poster Comment:

A comment from the site:

In fact, the same question was asked about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, -and everywhere else the idiotic decision was made to let loose with this technology.

It is ALWAYS a mistake to play God. There is no exception to this rule.

And the answer then, is still the same. No.

The infinite complexity of reality is the only known key to cogently determining the end result of this foolishness, -disaster.-

There is no solution to be found in finding excuses to see the use of atomic weaponry in some impossibly positive light, regardless the infantile fascination with things that go -Boom!-

Humanity is not intellectually equipped to handle this technology, nor most others.

In an era when our government is readying to blast a large nation, perhaps several, back into the Stone Age for the development of their own ideas of nuclear potential, we can only wonder just how far the idiotic mind of man will go to justify the use of these weapons.

Some are asking, Should we nuke Iran?

The Gulf of Mexico has suffered enough damage at the hands of humanity equipped by the scientists who lull us into an unwarranted sense of self-confidence.

Competence is vastly over-exaggerated in most cases.

And these scientists are much more closely related to the Great Apes -than they are to the Gods they pretend to be.

They have no authority to make this choice for me.

And I say -NO!-

If they say, -YES!-, then -with what restraint should my exception to their stupidity be expressed when they endanger the planet?

These moral knaves who feign civilization must be asked these questions.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


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#1. To: christine, wudidiz, Pinguinite, all (#0)

I vote NO as well. The chances of it sealing the leak are no better than 50-50 and the potential downside affects range from nasty to catastrophic.

Given that it now seems likely, as I surmised a couple of weeks ago, that the seabed is already cracked exploding a nuke could precipitate a rupture on a scale as to make the current oilcano look like a pinhole leak. The ensuing results would likely be the release of a huge methane cloud, in addition to hundreds of millions of gallons of oil, which would first asphyxiate anyone close to the coast followed by a secondary explosion of the methane at the first spark. Fortunately for anyone near the gulf they would likely already be dead.

Given the instability it is possible, even probable, that the resulting seismic disturbance could set off a chain reaction resulting in a seafloor collapse with ensuing tsunami anywhere between 40 and "oh my God" feet high.

Like a cluster of Pool Balls hit with an impact the seismic disturbance would likely run up the New Madrid seismic zone with the likely result of a Richter 7+ quake in the region.

So, as a fix a nuke has much greater potential to do harm than good.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-03   11:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: christine (#0)

As a side issue we may get a massive sea floor rupture anyway. With the apparent cracking of the seafloor, and the immense contending forces of weight and pressure, we could see at some point a cave in of the geologic structure followed by a seismic realignment which of course will likely extend up into the heart of the New Madrid Seismic Zone. This was suggested in Cliff High's data when he appeared on Rense recently and it is likely to occur somewhere within the next 18 months or so. The upside is that it will seal the hole naturally.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-03   11:48:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: christine (#0)

There are idiots out there who think nukes are magic. Nuke the Arabs, they'll collapse.Nuke the oil well, it'll seal.

They're just big bombs, for Christ's sake.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-03   11:56:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Turtle (#3)

Thank you Dr. Science.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-03   11:59:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: christine, Original_Intent, Pinguinite, amphibians (#0) (Edited)

Nonsense. This article is riddled with fallacies, mistruths, half-truths and other things that aren't the truth. When making such an important decision, emotion, prejudice, bias and fear should be entirely left out.

A nuke could work if done properly. A nuke, imo, Would work if done properly.

I have yet to see one single solid argument against the idea.

I have seen numerous fear based attempts at manipulating the information in an effort to persuade others to disagree with what imo may be the Only practical solution to this problem.

I don't have the time or desire to pick this article apart but I should later.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-03   16:47:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: wudidiz, christine, Original_Intent, amphibians (#5)

I agree with Wudidz. While I can't disagree with the articles point that a nuke would be, to a large extent, experimental, that notion conflicts with the doomsday claims that a nuke (a mini-nuke, that is) is "certain" to cause. How can anyone say that it's uncertain it would work as intended while also saying with certainty that all the bad stuff would happen?

And if we are not to nuke it, then what is the alternate proposed solution? Those who claim a nuke is out of the question without proposing something else are, by default, advocating that the well be allowed to continue to leak indefinitely.

If that is the case, they should say so plainly.

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-07-06   1:40:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Pinguinite, wudidiz, christine (#6)

How can anyone say that it's uncertain it would work as intended while also saying with certainty that all the bad stuff would happen?

That is THE point. We don't know what would happen. Because it has worked on dry land, not in a deep well under a 5000 foot column of water, are not comparable cirucumstances. The more we learn about the geology of the area the more questionable it becomes. It is not that it might not work, but if it doesn't the consequences, which are just as likely, is potentially to turn a catastrophe into total devastation.

And as we both know there is a heavy news blackout in place. From that we can infer that what is actually occuring is likely much worse than what is being fed out. However, we can also infer from the limited data set of evidence, based on all of the new seeps and holes opening up, that we are dealing with a fragile seafloor and it is likely already cracked. A "small" nuclear explosion given the massive pressure, about 40,000 PSI based on recent reports, could release a large methane bubble, stir up the methane hydrates heating them enough to separate, collapse the seafloor as the geology adjusts, and in the process create a tsunami, and possibly get a methane firestorm as a cherry on top.

No, what you are saying is that the solution to the problem is to play "Russian Roulette".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-06   2:04:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Original_Intent (#7)

It is not that it might not work, but if it doesn't the consequences, which are just as likely, is potentially to turn a catastrophe into total devastation.

My point is that you don't know that what I've bolded in your statement is true.

How do you know that it's "just as likely"? You don't. And that's why I say that some fears are being promoted without basis.

Cracks in the sea floor does not sound plausible to me. How does 5 miles of earth under 1 mile of ocean crack? It takes months just to drill through it, and the notion that it can crack is foreign no me. I can believe that well casing is partially destroyed and that oil is leaking from it and emerging at various points from the seafloor near the well. Do we have more than claims that this particular well accident resulted in leaks 15 or 20 miles away? And if we do, do we conclude that if the April 20 accident hadn't happened, that they wouldn't be there? That doesn't make sense to me. Why don't we have similar cracks around other deep Gulf wells?

Or do we?

Finally, do you indeed favor letting the well continue to gush oil if a nuke is the only possible way to stop it? I know that's to an extent a hypothetical question, but it's not a loaded question. If you do, fine. I just want to know if you are that serious about rejecting the nuke option.

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-07-06   2:50:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: christine, Original_Intent, Pinguinite, All (#5) (Edited)

Please, if you can, watch this video before reading this post so you have a better idea of the method I'm talking about using that the Russians were successful with.

The first sentence of the article itself starts out as bs.

CBS News, the Christian Science Monitor, CNN, Reuters and Fox (and see this) have all asked whether BP should nuke its leaking oil well.

Who said anything about BP nuking the well?

BP should NOT be allowed within 100 miles of any of the decision making or attempts to solve the problem.

Vladimir Chuprov from Greenpeace's Moscow office is even more insistent that BP not heed the advice of the veteran Soviet physicists. Chuprov disputes the veterans' accounts of the peaceful explosions and says several of the gas leaks reappeared later. "What was praised as a success and a breakthrough by the Soviet Union is in essence a lie," he says.

Who the hell is this guy all of a sudden?

We're supposed to believe that because he's both Russian and a member of Greenpeace (a fraudulent scam organization) that he's an authority? Where are these "several" gas leaks that appeared later?

Here's an excerpt from the article:

[Former long-time Russian Minister of nuclear energy and veteran Soviet physicist Viktor] Mikhailov agrees that the USSR had to give up its program because of problems it presented. "I ended the program because I knew how worthless this all was," he says with a sigh. "Radioactive material was still seeping through cracks in the ground and spreading into the air. It wasn't worth it."

and here's what they didn't want you to read from the exact same guy:

MOSCOW/WASHINGTON (Reuters) – His face wracked by age and his voice rasping after decades of chain-smoking coarse tobacco, the former long-time Russian Minister of nuclear energy and veteran Soviet physicist Viktor Mikhailov knows just how to fix BP's oil leak in the Gulf of Mexico. "A nuclear explosion over the leak," he says nonchalantly puffing a cigarette as he sits in a conference room at the Institute of Strategic Stability, where he is a director. "I don't know what BP is waiting for, they are wasting their time. Only about 10 kilotons of nuclear explosion capacity and the problem is solved."

The explosion should be under (before) the leak. BP should Not be allowed to do anymore work concerning this leak. For obvious reasons.

From the article:

As the Christian Science Monitor points out:

The Russians previously used nukes at least five times to seal off gas well fires. … Komsomoloskaya Pravda suggested that the United States might as well take a chance with a nuke, based on the historical 20% failure rate. Still, the Soviet experience with nuking underground gas wells could prove easier in retrospect than trying to seal the Gulf of Mexico’s oil well disaster that’s taking place 5,000 feet below the surface. The Russians were using nukes to extinguish gas well fires in natural gas fields, not sealing oil wells gushing liquid, so there are big differences, and this method has never been tested in such conditions.

The second well would be dug beside the first one angling toward it. The explosion would occur miles below the top of the well. The depth of water above and the type of substance leaking out has no relevance.

As CBS News reports, not all of the Russians nukes worked:

But not each use of nuclear energy did the trick. A 4 kiloton charge set off in Russia's Kharkov region failed to stop a gas blowout. "The explosion was mysteriously left on the surface, forming a mushroom cloud," the paper reported.

This is like comparing apples and oranges. If there was a mushroom cloud that means that the explosion that didn't work was on the surface of the land. The explosion should be miles beneath the surface of the rock. They would use more than 4 kilotons to ensure the pipe is sealed. They're complaining about a 80% (4/5) success rate, but there is a 100% (4/4) success rate of the times it was done properly.

For example, Reuters notes:

There is a chance any blast could fracture the seabed and cause an underground blowout, according to Andy Radford, petroleum engineer and American Petroleum Institute senior policy adviser on offshore issues.

More bs courtesy of Reuters and an Oil Industry Hooer. Notice the choice of language; "a chance, blast, fracture, blowout". This guy's in bed with Obama, BP and whoever else will give him moolah to be sure. No, the "blast", which again would be miles below the seabed, would only vibrate the rock. And so what if it fractured the seabed anyway? They make it sound like the earth is gonna just come busting loose out of a crack in the seabed. Jeesh.

CNN points out that nuking the leaking well could conceivably destabilize other oil wells miles away.

More horse ka-ka. I could conceivably walk on water too.

The New York Times reports:

Government and private nuclear experts agreed that using a nuclear bomb would be ... risky technically, with unknown and possibly disastrous consequences from radiation ....

A senior Los Alamos scientist, speaking on the condition of anonymity because his comments were unauthorized, ridiculed the idea of using a nuclear blast to solve the crisis in the gulf.

“It’s not going to happen,” he said. “Technically, it would be exploring new ground in the midst of a disaster — and you might make it worse.”

Fear mongering and scare tactics. You know, the more I read this crap, the more I'm convinced nuking the well shut is the way to go. Which "government and private nuclear experts" agreed? Which ones didn't agree? Oh yeah, ridicule. A ridiculing anonymous senior scientist. Great.

What's next?

And one of the world's top physicists - string theorist Michio Kaku - writes:

I think this is a bad idea, from a physics point of view. Let me say that my mentor while I was in high school and at Harvard, Edward Teller, father of the H-bomb, was a firm advocate of using nuclear weapons to dig out canals and other grand engineering projects.

***

Underground, we then have a hollow sphere of vaporized gas, with walls that have been glassified from the sand. This hollow sphere is stable from a few hours to a few days, but eventually the weight of the rock collapses the sphere. The result is a sudden collapse of the sphere, often releasing radioactive gas into the environment.

***

If this takes place under the sea floor (which has never been done before), there are bound to be complications. First, there would be the release of dangerous, water-soluble chemicals such as radioactive iodine, strontium, and cesium, which would contaminate the food chain in the Gulf. Second, the "seal" created by the glassified sand is probably unstable. And third, it might actually make the problem worse, creating many mini leaks on the ocean floor. Determining the precise effect of such an underwater blast would depend on crucial computer simulations of the various layers of rock under the seafloor, which has never been done before.

In other words, this would be a huge science experiment, with unintended consequences. Furthermore, with hurricane season upon us, and predictions of eight or more hurricanes for this season, it means that seawater several hundred feet below the surface of the water could be churned up and then deposited over the South. This seawater, containing oils and radioactive fission products, would magnify the environmental problem.

In summary, it is not a good idea to use nukes to seal up oil leaks.

The string theorist is assuming that the nuke would be detonated just below the top of the well. It would not. It would be used miles below. No danger of radiation or "collapse of the sphere" resulting in the release of poisonous gases. None. At all.

Moreover, former President Bill Clinton told CNN on Sunday (starting 3:13 into video) that he has looked into the issue, and that a nuke is not needed. He said the Navy can use conventional explosives to seal the well. As the former commander-in-chief, Clinton is probably getting such information from someone high up in the Navy.

So Slick Willy tops off the long list of experts and scientists. Of course everyone trusts him because he's so good looking and such an excellent liar.

Damn, he's a good liar.

Good lookin too.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-06   3:49:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Pinguinite, Original_Intent (#8) (Edited)

It is not that it might not work, but if it doesn't the consequences, which are just as likely, is potentially to turn a catastrophe into total devastation.

I don't think the "possible" consequences are anywhere near as likely.

They should be able to do a computer generated model of what would happen.

Not one like the Purdue University did of the plane hitting the tower and the tower collapsing, but a real proper one with the highest government, private and military technology.

LOL like that'll ever happen.

Instead they'll just continue with Obama showing up now and then for a photo op.

No, I doubt they'll do it right.

I'm just saying that as a matter of fact, I think it could be done if done right.

Simply and relatively easily.

Put the device 6 miles below the bottom of the ocean. (a hundred or whatever yards away from the original pipe) You'll just see little ripples on the water from the vibration.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-06   4:00:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent (#10)

Put the device 6 miles below the bottom of the ocean. (a hundred or whatever yards away from the original pipe) You'll just see little ripples on the water from the vibration.

Well, I wouldn't deny anyone their right to punch holes (no pun intended) in the nuke idea. What seems obvious to you and me about how it should work may not be true, just as what may seem obvious to them, in terms to potential hazards with the nuke idea may not be true.

What we need is solid facts and sound science to debate this, and both are in short supply here, unfortunately. BP certainly isn't being upfront about anything that would cost them more money.

But to me, if there is no other solution on the table to stop the oil flow, then that should be a consideration in favor of the nuke option, even given the unknowns, as letting it continue to gush is a known hazard that is very severe, even well beyond what has already occurred.

But maybe the relief wells are an option that would work, albeit in 1-8 more months.

Pinguinite  posted on  2010-07-06   9:27:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Pinguinite, 4 (#11)

more A Whale information -

Lod  posted on  2010-07-06   9:35:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: All (#12)

All the delays to put this vessel to work are insanely criminal.

Lod  posted on  2010-07-06   9:41:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Lod (#13)

Oh, well, they have environmental concerns and it's a really big ship.....

lol


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-07   2:15:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Lod (#13)

All the delays to put this vessel to work are insanely criminal.

Let me guess, BP won't hire them because it would cut into their bottom line.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-07   2:21:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Pinguinite (#11)

Nuking it wont happen. Obama would be finished.

It it was a disaster and didn't work he would take the blame.

If it did work he would be pounded with why did you wait so long.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-07   7:33:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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