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Title: Barack Obama: Shape Shifting Reptilian Overlord or Pure Human?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jul 4, 2010
Author: russell huebsch
Post Date: 2010-07-04 14:41:52 by Turtle
Keywords: None
Views: 17238
Comments: 362

Is Barack Obama really a shape shifting reptilian humanoid from a far away galaxy bent on the enslavement of the human race? According to David Icke, who claims on his web site that most world leaders come from a line of reptilians originating in the Alpha Draconis, Barack Obama is most likely a blood drinking shape shifter bent on progressing the New World Order. Icke's reptilian theory makes the claim that reptilians plan to control humanity and other civilizations through fear and negative emotion, a food source for the reptilian. Icke believes the reptilians plan for world domination started to unravel with the September 11 attacks on New York and Obama's presidency will lead us into this "New World Order", but is this just mere babbling from a sick mind or does this theory have some legitimacy? Here are signs that the Obama reptilian conspiracy is true.

"Change we need": Has Obama told us all along that he is a changeling/shape shifting reptilian? Think about it, change always happens when a new president enters office, perhaps Obama's corporeal body is crying out to the world that a shape shifting reptilian alien has hijacked his avatar. "Change" might also be a code word for reptilian dictators across the globe that America has elected another shape shifter as president. Even Adolph Hitler claimed to bring change for the German people, but as we know all the only thing the world received from Hitler was millions of lost lives and the genocide of an entire race of people. Whatever this "change" really means it certainly does not bode well for the future of America and even worse for the human race.

The questionable birth certificate: Why would any presidential candidate try so desperately to hide a real birth certificate? Perhaps because reptilian overlords do not receive birth certificates, they congeal out of a pile of goo! The voting public would never vote for a space reptilian and if the plan for world domination ever leaked to the general there would be mass chaos, thus the Republican party could never reveal Obama's true ancestry and the reptilian conspiracy continues.


Poster Comment:

I always thought Obama was just half kaffir and half white trash race traitor. But perhaps he's a David Icke blood-drinking shape-shifting space reptile...

I, for one, welcome our new reptilian overloads. I'll point out to them all my enemies, so they can eat them.

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#163. To: Original_Intent (#161)

You have yet to provide a credible mechanism that shows how an airplane impact accompanied by low temperature fires collapsed a steel framed structure in a linear descent, a mere one hour after the impact, almost exactly into its own footprint.

The facts that aircraft traveling at maximum speeds with substantial loads of fuel crashed into the WTC towers, set off fires, sheared off fire protection, and destroyed load bearing supports are completely undeniable.

And within a few hours max of these impacts, the buildings collapsed. And there have been volumnious reports done by professionals who make their livings putting up and taking down buildings, correlating the two events.

The burden is upon you to show these events were not correlated. You cannot do this, so instead go onto tangents about people, motive, eebil gubmint, and psychobabble.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (One Love)
There is one question I'd really love to ask (One Heart)
Is there a place for the hopeless sinner
Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own?"

Bob Marley

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   17:27:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#163)

The facts that aircraft traveling at maximum speeds with substantial loads of fuel crashed into the WTC towers, set off fires, sheared off fire protection, and destroyed load bearing supports are completely undeniable.

And within a few hours max of these impacts, the buildings collapsed. And there have been volumnious reports done by professionals who make their livings putting up and taking down buildings, correlating the two events.

The burden is upon you to show these events were not correlated. You cannot do this, so instead go onto tangents about people, motive, eebil gubmint, and psychobabble.

This is not a court of law.

Fact is, steel doesn't need fire protection and the load bearing supports were not destroyed by fire.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-07   17:32:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#151) (Edited)

The speed of impact of UA Flight 175 has been estimated to be 590 mph = 865 ft/s.

The kinetic energy released by the impact of UA Flight 175 was = 0.5 x 395,000 x (865)2/32.174 = 4.593 billion ft lbs force (6,227,270 Kilojoules).

The speed is a bit different than what NIST presented, where they report 546 for the speed of Flight 175 at impact, but those reports have ranged from 430 to 500 to 540.

But we'll take 590 just for the heck of it..

1 mph = 0.44704 m / s 590 mph = 264 m/s

The maximum takeoff weight for a 767-200ER ( I had earlier thought it was a 767- 200, so I used a lower takeoff weight, but here I'll use the maximum takeoff weight of a 767-200ER) is 395,000 lbs.

1 pound = 0.45359237 kilograms

395,000 pounds = 179169 kg

E = 1/2mv2

so...

0.5 * 179169 kg * (264 m/s)2 = 6,243,681,312 Joules, or 6.24 GigaJoules

Thing is, the speed was not 590 mph, the highest reported speed was 546...

So, with 546 mph, the result changes dramatically...

546 mph = 244.1 meters per second

0.5 * 179169 kg * (244 m/s)2 = 5,333,502,792 Joules, or 5.33 GigaJoules

Looks like my first result was off by a factor of 10. Apparently I copied the result of the conversion from pounds to kilograms wrong.

So AGAviator, ok, the impact energy WAS somewhere around 6 GJ or so, probably more like 3 or 4 GJ since the plane was only carrying half it's fuel capacity.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   17:39:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: AGAviator (#162)

For the 3rd time you are ignoring the energy from the burning jet fuel

The burning fuel did not add to the IMPACT energy. It simply raised the TEMPERATURE of the structure.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   17:40:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: FormerLurker (#111)

Try this on for size Einstein...

1222 architectural and engineering professionals and 8794 other supporters including A&E students have signed the petition demanding of Congress a truly independent investigation.

From your own link

I don't claim to know what really happened on 9/11. I cannot examine the facts of the matter first hand. And I don't have the experience to know what's possible and what is unlikely regarding terrorist activities or military operations. For that analysis, I need to rely on experts. Many of the government employees have spent large portions of their careers studying espionage, terrorism, and military operations throughout the world and have personally planned and carried out United States' military and intelligence activities.

Nor am I an architect, structural engineer, or commercial or military pilot. Their expressions of concern about the official account of 9/11 are also extremely important. I applaud the integrity and courage of all of the individuals listed on the website for publicly supporting the search for the truth about 9/11 in spite of opposition by our government and lack of support in the mainstream news media.

Somebody claiming he doesn't know WTF is going on does not corroborate your claims of "official government" theories being false.

And he explicitly wants to rely on the same educated and accomplished professionals I cite, and you trash as being part of the official conspiracy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (One Love)
There is one question I'd really love to ask (One Heart)
Is there a place for the hopeless sinner
Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own?"

Bob Marley

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   17:41:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: AGAviator (#167)

Somebody claiming he doesn't know WTF is going on does not corroborate your claims of "official government" theories being false.

Provide the link, and cite the person's name. I don't see it anywhere at the link I posted.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   17:43:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: FormerLurker (#166)

The burning fuel did not add to the IMPACT energy. It simply raised the TEMPERATURE of the structure

And unevenly heated load bearing trusses and columns, causing extensive unbalanced torques and loads needing to be redistributed through an already seriously damaged framework.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (One Love)
There is one question I'd really love to ask (One Heart)
Is there a place for the hopeless sinner
Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own?"

Bob Marley

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   17:44:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: FormerLurker (#168)

Provide the link, and cite the person's name. I don't see it anywhere at the link I posted.

You posted it, you should research it. It's in there.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (One Love)
There is one question I'd really love to ask (One Heart)
Is there a place for the hopeless sinner
Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own?"

Bob Marley

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   17:44:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: wudidiz (#164) (Edited)

Fact is, steel doesn't need fire protection and the load bearing supports were not destroyed by fire.

Nyuk, nyuk.

Tell that to any fire protection inspector, any insurance company, any civil engineer and see how far you get...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
"Let them all pass all their dirty remarks (One Love)
There is one question I'd really love to ask (One Heart)
Is there a place for the hopeless sinner
Who has hurt all mankind just to save his own?"

Bob Marley

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   17:47:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: AGAviator (#170)

You posted it, you should research it. It's in there.

I take it you fabricated what you wrote. Here's one of the reports from the link that I actually posted...


News - News Releases By AE911Truth
Written by Darcy Wearing and Richard Gage, AIA   

Thursday, 24 June 2010 18:55

Having had the privilege of speaking with Tom Sullivan, an actual explosive- charge placement technician, we have some new insights to pass along as to how controlled demolition works, where it started, and the effect that 9/11 had on the demolition industry. Sullivan gained his experience as an employee of the leading firm in this field, Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI).  Sullivan stresses though “I do not in anyway represent CDI and what I have to say is based on my own experience and training,”

Sullivan attended high school with Doug Loizeaux of the Loizeaux family. The Loizeaux family, through the father Jack, independently started the whole controlled-demolition industry and turned it into a highly profitable business. Sullivan, before he became connected to CDI, was an independent photographer during his early years in Maryland. He would be sent to CD sites and take still pictures of the jobs.  He became infatuated with the CD industry. The time came when he would do both, being the placer of the “cutter charges” on the primary joints, and photographing the jobs for promoting the business. Soon he would switch to full-time employee status of CDI -- as verified by AE911Truth’s verification team.

"It was very interesting, but also very hard work, long hours, especially in the cold weather," Sullivan reflects. He stated that the days began early, around 6 a.m., and they would work until the sun was down. Sullivan had the experience of preparing a building by placing the cutter charges throughout the primary joints, and then, of course, watching it all come down.


Sullivan notes that many weeks are required to “prep,” or weaken the buildings before demolitions. Steel frame buildings don’t just fall into their footprints at free-fall without major work throughout the building – even some before the placement of explosives.  Sullivan emphasized as an aside, “Fire cannot bring down steel-framed high rises -- period.”

One of Sullivan’s most exciting jobs was the colossal Kingdome in whose reinforced concrete structure he personally placed hundreds of deadly explosive charges. 

Working for CDI was, Sullivan stated, “a very unique experience.”  He also said, "they were a close-knit family -- referring to the familial values of the Loizeauxs." “I learned from watching," said Sullivan. "There is no school that will teach you this, just hands on hard work." Sullivan took hundreds of project photos, through which he developed a deep passion for the trade.

When asked, what made CDI the best in the business, he commented, “their family had all the experience because they ’invented’ the art of CD. They spent years traveling around the world, showing and educating people how this art form works.”

Unfortunately, the business came to a screeching halt after 9/11. "People were scared -- if they were to hear a loud bang it was probably some kind of terrorist attack," says Sullivan in frustration. "Fear took over and there was no more business." Even Mark Loizeaux (CDI’s President) has been quoted as saying 9/11 ruined him. Sullivan had no choice but to leave CDI. Curiously, CDI had a role in the WTC cleanup through a subcontract under Tully Construction. On September 22, 2001, CDI submitted a 25-page "preliminary" document to New York City's Department of Design and Construction, a plan related to the removal and recycling of the steel.[¹]

Sullivan stated that he knew from the first day that the destruction of World Trade Center Building 7 on 9/11 was a classic controlled implosion. Asked how he thought it might have been done he posited, “looking at the building it wouldn’t be a problem -- once you gain access to the elevator shafts…then a team of expert loaders would have hidden access to the core columns and beams.  The rest can be accomplished with just the right kind of explosives for the job. Thermite can be used as well.”

Brent Blanchard, the photographer from the controlled demolition company Protec, has said, in criticism of the CD theory, that there would have had to been detonation cords strung all over the place and casings left in the rubble pile from the cutter charges.  So we asked for a response from Sullivan.  He noted that:

Remote wireless detonators have been available for years. Look at any action movie -- and of course the military has them.  The reason most contractors don’t use them is that they are too expensive -- but in a project with a huge budget it would be no problem. As for the casings -- everyone in the industry, including Blanchard, would know that RDX explosive cutter charges are completely consumed when they go off -- nothing is left. And in the case of Thermite cutter charges, that may also be the case. Thermite self-consuming cutter charge casings have been around since first patented back in 1984.


We asked Sullivan if all the floors in WTC  7 would have to be loaded with explosives in order for a successful controlled demolition.  He responded,

No, with steel framed buildings you really need only to load the bottom third to bring the building down. While at CDI we had a job in Hartford Conn, the CNG building, where we did just that.  And it worked out beautifully.

Recalling that Ron Craig, a Hollywood movie explosions expert claimed in a debate with us, that there would have been many blocks of broken windows if it were a controlled demolition.  Sullivan reflected,

The key word here is controlled demolition – in other words careful placement of charges -- always focused and precise.  We are not talking about setting off a bomb here.  The amount and type of explosives is an art and collateral damage can often be completely avoided.

We asked about Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator of NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) who claimed publically in his infamous press conference at the “unveiling” of the Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 that there would have been a loud boom coming from a massive explosion if this had been a controlled demolition, and asked him about that.  Sullivan said, “With any implosion there is never just one big explosion but rather waves of smaller explosions -- not unlike the percussion section in a symphony - - as each loaded floor is progressively set off.”

And as Sullivan watched the towers collapse that day, like so many did, he pondered at how fast it all took place, and how suddenly and symmetrically they were brought down. "I knew it was an explosive event as soon as I saw it, there was no question in my mind," said Sullivan. Most of us agree -- it's not by chance that the first tower just happened to collapse -- then the second in the same manner. What convinced him completely is when he watched Tower 7 fall that day, "I mean, come on, it was complete destruction. I've seen buildings fall like that for years -- that was the end game for me." Keep in mind that Sullivan did this for a living for several years -- it is like second nature for him to see this type of demolition. If anybody would know, it should be him.  But we went ahead and asked him, “Is there any chance that normal office fires (the official cause of the ’collapse’) could have been responsible for the smooth, symmetrical, free-fall acceleration of building 7? “Not a chance,” he retorted. We just wanted to be sure.

When we asked him if he followed any of the 9/11 Commission hearings or that of the NIST reporting, he had the same answer for both "I have no tolerance for people who lie to me about what I know to be true. I threw my hands up in disgust and never watched another hearing after the first. As for NIST, I didn't even watch because I knew what to expect." He did however follow the final report on the collapse of Tower 7 and said it angered him that they could actually convince so many of their fraudulent claims.

Sullivan first came into contact with AE911Truth through a friend that sent him the 9/11: Blueprint for Truth DVD. He watched it and was very excited that there was actually an organization out there trying to inform people of what he was trying to say since that fateful day. “AE911Truth is the most focused and organized group there is today in the 9/11 truth movement.  There is no speculation," he said. "Blueprint for Truth is factual and impressive information based on science and physics, and was clear and concise." When asked if he agreed with the evidence the DVD brings forth, Sullivan responded, "It contains extremely compelling evidence."

The final question we asked in this interview was, "How many architects and engineers does it take speaking in unison until people hear that there is a problem?" His response, "As the number grows it will be harder and harder to deny them -- but deny them they will."

Note: 1) Sullivan came out from the East Coast to deliver a short but electrifying presentation on Friday and Saturday night, May 7th & 8th at the joint presentation of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and Firefighters for 9/11 Truth.  He joined Richard Gage, AIA, and Erik Lawyer on stage for 10 minutes and answered some key questions about the demolition industry, the CDI family of Loizeauxs, and the way the 3 WTC skyscrapers were destroyed.  Prior to these milestone events he appeared with Gage and Lawyer on KPFA radio Berkeley on the program “Guns & Butter” with host Bonnie Faulkner who had a number of great questions for him.

2) "DO NOT COPY" watermarks on images were added by Tom Sullivan. These images may not be copied other than in the context of this article, or with his specific approval.



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   17:55:41 ET  (5 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#166)

For the 3rd time you are ignoring the energy from the burning jet fuel

The burning fuel did not add to the IMPACT energy. It simply raised the TEMPERATURE of the structure.

As well even NIST now admits that most of the fuel was burned up in the first ten minutes. Remember the big fireball? That was the fuel load of one of the planes exploding - outside the building.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-07   17:56:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: FormerLurker (#172)

Interesting how in one of the photos it shows them placing an angled cutter charge. Hmmmmmmmm? Now where have we seen a steel girder cut off like that before?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-07   17:58:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: AGAviator (#169) (Edited)

And unevenly heated load bearing trusses and columns, causing extensive unbalanced torques and loads needing to be redistributed through an already seriously damaged framework.

So you are admitting that IF there was a loss of structural integrity, then it would be UNEVEN, right?

If the loss was UNEVEN, then the top of the towers should have slid off the lower part of the structure, or fallen down towards one corner.

An object always takes the path of LEAST resistance, not MOST resistance.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   17:58:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: Original_Intent (#174)

Interesting how in one of the photos it shows them placing an angled cutter charge. Hmmmmmmmm? Now where have we seen a steel girder cut off like that before?

Hmmm.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   18:02:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: Original_Intent (#173)

As well even NIST now admits that most of the fuel was burned up in the first ten minutes. Remember the big fireball? That was the fuel load of one of the planes exploding - outside the building.

As even your co-poster now concedes, several billion joules of all energy combined were released by the jet impacts. And within a couple hours max of this massive enrgy release the buildings collapsed.

It is incumbent upon you to show how these several billion joules were not a factor in the rapid collapses after the crashes, and substituted for by several billion more joules sufficient to cause building collapses, delivered by unknown methods and means.

Even discounting a certain amount of fuel leakage, far more fuel ended up burning inside the building than outside it. That's why a number of people chose to jump out of the windows to their deaths below, if you recall.

If all or most of the jet fuel was burining outside, you'd think they'd stay in their offices indoors, no?

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   18:04:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#173)

As well even NIST now admits that most of the fuel was burned up in the first ten minutes. Remember the big fireball? That was the fuel load of one of the planes exploding - outside the building.

Here's an interesting analysis I've seen in the past...

From THE JET FUEL; HOW HOT DID IT HEAT THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?



THE JET FUEL; HOW HOT DID IT HEAT
THE WORLD TRADE CENTER?

The Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) report into collapse of the WTC towers, estimates that about 3,500 gallons of jet fuel burnt within each of the towers. Imagine that this entire quantity of jet fuel was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat. With these ideal assumptions we calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached.

"The Boeing 767 is capable of carrying up to 23,980 gallons of fuel and it is estimated that, at the time of impact, each aircraft had approximately 10,000 gallons of unused fuel on board (compiled from Government sources)."

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

Since the aircraft were only flying from Boston to Los Angeles, they would have been nowhere near fully fueled on takeoff (the aircraft have a maximum range of 7,600 miles). They would have carried just enough fuel for the trip together with some safety factor. Remember, that carrying excess fuel means higher fuel bills and less paying passengers. The aircraft would have also burnt some fuel between Boston and New York.

"If one assumes that approximately 3,000 gallons of fuel were consumed in the initial fireballs, then the remainder either escaped the impact floors in the manners described above or was consumed by the fire on the impact floors. If half flowed away, then 3,500 gallons remained on the impact floors to be consumed in the fires that followed."

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

What we propose to do, is pretend that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect quantity of oxygen, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction. With these ideal assumptions (none of which were meet in reality) we will calculate the maximum temperature that this one floor could have reached. Of course, on that day, the real temperature rise of any floor due to the burning jet fuel, would have been considerably lower than the rise that we calculate, but this estimate will enable us to demonstrate that the "official" explanation is a lie.

Note that a gallon of jet fuel weighs about 3.1 kilograms, hence 3,500 gallons weighs 3,500 x 3.1 = 10,850 kgs.

Jet fuel is a colorless, combustible, straight run petroleum distillate liquid. Its principal uses are as an ingredient in lamp oils, charcoal starter fluids, jet engine fuels and insecticides.

It is also know as, fuel oil #1, kerosene, range oil, coal oil and aviation fuel.

It is comprised of hydrocarbons with a carbon range of C9 - C17. The hydrocarbons are mainly alkanes CnH2n+2, with n ranging from 9 to 17.

It has a flash point within the range 42° C - 72° C (110° F - 162° F).

And an ignition temperature of 210° C (410° F).

Depending on the supply of oxygen, jet fuel burns by one of three chemical reactions:

(1) CnH2n+2 + (3n+1)/2 O2 => n CO2 + (n + 1) H2O

(2) CnH2n+2 + (2n+1)/2 O2 => n CO + (n + 1) H2O

(3) CnH2n+2 + (n+1)/2 O2 => n C + (n + 1) H2O

Reaction (1) occurs when jet fuel is well mixed with air before being burnt, as for example, in jet engines.

Reactions (2) and (3) occur when a pool of jet fuel burns. When reaction (3) occurs the carbon formed shows up as soot in the flame. This makes the smoke very dark.

In the aircraft crashes at the World Trade Center, the impact (with the aircraft going from 500 or 600 mph to zero) would have throughly mixed the fuel that entered the building with the limited amount of air available within. In fact, it is likely that all the fuel was turned into a flammable mist. However, for sake of argument we will assume that 3,500 gallons of the jet fuel did in fact form a pool fire. This means that it burnt according to reactions (2) and (3). Also note that the flammable mist would have burnt according to reactions (2) and (3), as the quantity of oxygen within the building was quite limited.

Since we do not know the exact quantities of oxygen available to the fire, we will assume that the combustion was perfectly efficient, that is, that the entire quantity of jet fuel burnt via reaction (1), even though we know that this was not so. This generous assumption will give a temperature that we know will be higher than the actual temperature of the fire attributable to the jet fuel.

We need to know that the (net) calorific value of jet fuel when burnt via reaction (1) is 42-44 MJ/kg. The calorific value of a fuel is the amount of energy released when the fuel is burnt. We will use the higher value of 44 MJ/kg as this will lead to a higher maximum temperature than the lower value of 42 (and we wish to continue being outrageously generous in our assumptions).

For a cleaner presentation and simpler calculations we will also assume that our hydrocarbons are of the form CnH2n. The dropping of the 2 hydrogen atoms does not make much difference to the final result and the interested reader can easily recalculate the figures for a slightly more accurate result. So we are now assuming the equation:

(4) CnH2n + 3n/2 O2 => n CO2 + n H2O

However, this model, does not take into account that the reaction is proceeding in air, which is only partly oxygen.

Dry air is 79% nitrogen and 21% oxygen (by volume). Normal air has a moisture content from 0 to 4%. We will include the water vapor and the other minor atmospheric gases with the nitrogen.

So the ratio of the main atmospheric gases, oxygen and nitrogen, is 1 : 3.76. In molar terms:

Air = O2 + 3.76 N2.

Because oxygen comes mixed with nitrogen, we have to include it in the equations. Even though it does not react, it is "along for the ride" and will absorb heat, affecting the overall heat balance. Thus we need to use the equation:

(5) CnH2n + 3n/2(O2 + 3.76 N2) => n CO2 + n H2O + 5.64n N2

From this equation we see that the molar ratio of CnH2n to that of the products is:

CnH2n : CO2 : H2O : N2= 1 : n : n : 5.64n moles
= 14n : 44n : 18n : 28 x 5.64n kgs
= 1 : 3.14286 : 1.28571 : 11.28 kgs
= 31,000 : 97,429 : 39,857 : 349,680 kgs

In the conversion of moles to kilograms we have assumed the atomic weights of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen and oxygen are 1, 12, 14 and 16 respectively.

Now each of the towers contained 96,000 (short) tons of steel. That is an average of 96,000/117 = 820 tons per floor. Lets suppose that the bottom floors contained roughly twice the amount of steel of the upper floors (since the lower floors had to carry more weight). So we estimate that the lower floors contained about 1,100 tons of steel and the upper floors about 550 tons = 550 x 907.2 m6; 500,000 kgs. We will assume that the floors hit by the aircraft contained the lower estimate of 500,000 kgs of steel. This generously underestimates the quantity of steel in these floors, and once again leads to a higher estimate of the maximum temperature.

Each story had a floor slab and a ceiling slab. These slabs were 207 feet wide, 207 feet deep and 4 (in parts 5) inches thick and were constructed from lightweight concrete. So each slab contained 207 x 207 x 1/3 = 14,283 cubic feet of concrete. Now a cubic foot of lightweight concrete weighs about 50kg, hence each slab weighed 714,150 m6; 700,000 kgs. Together, the floor and ceiling slabs weighed some 1,400,000 kgs.

So, now we take all the ingredients and estimate a maximum temperature to which they could have been heated by 3,500 gallons of jet fuel. We will call this maximum temperature T. Since the calorific value of jet fuel is 44 MJ/kg. We know that 3,500 gallons = 31,000 kgs of jet fuel

will release 10,850 x 44,000,000 = 477,400,000,000 Joules of energy.

This is the total quantity of energy available to heat the ingredients to the temperature T. But what is the temperature T? To find out, we first have to calculate the amount of energy absorbed by each of the ingredients.

That is, we need to calculate the energy needed to raise:

39,857 kilograms of water vapor to the temperature T° C,
97,429 kilograms of carbon dioxide to the temperature T° C,
349,680 kilograms of nitrogen to the temperature T° C,
500,000 kilograms of steel to the temperature T° C,
1,400,000 kilograms of concrete to the temperature T° C.

To calculate the energy needed to heat the above quantities, we need their specific heats. The specific heat of a substance is the amount of energy needed to raise one kilogram of the substance by one degree centigrade.

SubstanceSpecific Heat [J/kg*C]
Nitrogen1,038
Water Vapor1,690
Carbon Dioxide845
Lightweight Concrete 800
Steel450

Substituting these values into the above, we obtain:

39,857 x1,690 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the water vapor from 25° to T° C,
97,429 x845 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the carbon dioxide from 25° to T° C,
349,680 x1,038 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the nitrogen from 25° to T° C,
500,000 x450 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the steel from 25° to T° C,
1,400,000 x800 x (T - 25) Joules are needed to heat the concrete from 25° to T° C.

The assumption that the specific heats are constant over the temperature range 25° - T° C, is a good approximation if T turns out to be relatively small (as it does). For larger values of T this assumption once again leads to a higher maximum temperature (as the specific heat for these substances increases with temperature). We have assumed the initial temperature of the surroundings to be 25° C. The quantity, (T - 25)° C, is the temperature rise.

So the amount of energy needed to raise one floor to the temperature T° C is

= (39,857 x 1,690 + 97,429 x 845 + 349,680 x 1,038 + 500,000 x 450 + 1,400,000 x 800) x (T - 25)
= (67,358,330 + 82,327,505 + 362,967,840 + 225,000,000 + 1,120,000,000) x (T - 25) Joules
= 1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) Joules.

Since the amount of energy available to heat this floor is 477,400,000,000 Joules, we have that

1,857,653,675 x (T - 25) = 477,400,000,000
1,857,653,675 x T - 46,441,341,875 = 477,400,000,000

Therefore T = (477,400,000,000 + 46,441,341,875)/1,857,653,675 = 282° C (540° F).

So, the jet fuel could (at the very most) have only added T - 25 = 282 - 25 = 257° C (495° F) to the temperature of the typical office fire that developed.

Remember, this figure is a huge over-estimate, as (among other things) it assumes that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb the heat, whereas in reality, the jet fuel fire was all over in one or two minutes, and the energy not absorbed by the concrete and steel within this brief period (that is, almost all of it) would have been vented to the outside world.

"The time to consume the jet fuel can be reasonably computed. At the upper bound, if one assumes that all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor, it would form a pool that would be consumed by fire in less than 5 minutes"

Quote from the FEMA report into the collapse of WTC's One and Two (Chapter Two).

Here are statements from three eye-witnesses that provide evidence that the heating due to the jet fuel was indeed minimal.

Donovan Cowan was in an open elevator at the 78th floor sky-lobby (one of the impact floors of the South Tower) when the aircraft hit. He has been quoted as saying: "We went into the elevator. As soon as I hit the button, that's when there was a big boom. We both got knocked down. I remember feeling this intense heat. The doors were still open. The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped."

Stanley Praimnath was on the 81st floor of the South Tower: "The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway."

Ling Young was in her 78th floor office: "Only in my area were people alive, and the people alive were from my office. I figured that out later because I sat around in there for 10 or 15 minutes. That's how I got so burned."

Neither Stanley Praimnath nor Donovan Cowan nor Ling Young were cooked by the jet fuel fire. All three survived.

Summarizing:

We have assumed that the entire 3,500 gallons of jet fuel was confined to just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor, that no heat escaped this floor by conduction and that the steel and concrete had an unlimited amount of time to absorb all the heat.

Then it is impossible that the jet fuel, by itself, raised the temperature of this floor more than 257° C (495° F).

Now this temperature is nowhere near high enough to even begin explaining the World Trade Center Tower collapse.

It is not even close to the first critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F) where steel loses about half its strength and it is nowhere near the quotes of 1500° C that we constantly read about in our lying media.

"In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900° C (1,500-1,700° F) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 600° C (1,100° F), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments."

Quote from the FEMA report (Appendix A).

Recalling that the North Tower suffered no major structural damage from the intense office fire of February 23, 1975, we can conclude that the ensuing office fires of September 11, 2001, also did little extra damage to the towers.

Conclusion:

The jet fuel fires played almost no role in the collapse of the World Trade Center.

So, once again, you have been lied to by the media, are you surprised?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   18:07:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: FormerLurker (#176)

Yeah! That's it!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-07   18:08:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: FormerLurker (#176) (Edited)

I've already posted this picture 3 times.

It's a construction iron worker adjusting his cutting torch in a man basket getting ready to make your angular cuts. Giving off {shudder} yellow sulfur- like smoke as he fine tunes the oxygen supply.

Those 3-4 foot long thingies in the basket are cutting torches.

Also note the X-shaped cut behind him and immediately to his right. Another cutting torch mark.

Try to keep up.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   18:10:06 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: FormerLurker (#178)

Yes, I've used it before myself. Ol' Max, the anonymous Engineer who did that analysis, nailed it. I have seen on multiple occasions on multiple forums and it has, to my knowledge, NEVER BEEN REFUTED. It has been ignored and avoided a few times, but NEVER refuted.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-07   18:12:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#177)

As even your co-poster now concedes, several billion joules of all energy combined were released by the jet impacts. And within a couple hours max of this massive enrgy release the buildings collapsed.

Wrong, the fact is that energy was dissipated in the first few seconds of the impact, causing some swaying of the building. Besides, we are just talking about AVAILABLE energy, not the TRANSFER of energy to the structure, since the plane itself absorbed some of that energy by being ripped to shreds.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   18:12:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: FormerLurker (#178)

In all aviation, especially commercial aviation, passenger safety trumps fuel economy time and time again.

Aircraft must not only have enough fuel for alternate destinations, they must also have enough fuel to make safe landings if one or more engines fail.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   18:12:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: AGAviator (#180)

http://www.debunking911.com/cut.jpg

Looks like the guy is painting or something. What's that supposed to prove? Oh, you say he's CUTTING the column? I don't see a cutting torch in his hand.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   18:14:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: FormerLurker (#182)

the fact is that energy was dissipated in the first few seconds of the impact, causing some swaying of the building. Besides, we are just talking about AVAILABLE energy, not the TRANSFER of energy to the structure, since the plane itself absorbed some of that energy by being ripped to shreds.

A swaying building that has already had its load bearing columns seriously damaged is a damaged building with unpredictable consequences. And transfers of enregy from moving ojects to stationary objects make the energy go to the target, not the source.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   18:15:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: AGAviator (#183)

Aircraft must not only have enough fuel for alternate destinations, they must also have enough fuel to make safe landings if one or more engines fail.

The 767 could fly to Bejing on full tanks, it was only flying across the country from Boston to LA. It could land ANYWHERE in the country with half tanks.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   18:16:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: AGAviator (#119)

The only place a "government account of 911" exists is in your addled brain.

whaaaaa?

i don't know that i've ever seen you post what you think happened, only what you think didn't happen. can you tell me what's in your "addled" brain? ;)

christine  posted on  2010-07-07   18:17:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: AGAviator (#185)

And transfers of enregy from moving ojects to stationary objects make the energy go to the target, not the source

So if I throw an egg at a brick wall, the wall is going to suffer more than the egg, eh? What school did you go to again?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   18:17:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: AGAviator (#171)

Fact is, steel doesn't need fire protection and the load bearing supports were not destroyed by fire.

Nyuk, nyuk.

Tell that to any fire protection inspector, any insurance company, any civil engineer and see how far you get...

You don't mean just any, but any of the ones that are bought and paid for and can't think for themselves.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-07   18:20:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: FormerLurker (#184)

Oh, you say he's CUTTING the column? I don't see a cutting torch in his hand.

Pretty lame. He's up there to cut, and that's what the elongated items in the basket are.

This is from the same place the CT's have gotten their cherry- picked angular cut photos, so do your research and find out what that man is doing in the middle of all those torched columns.

Ever used either a cutting torch or thermite? I've used both. Those are torch marks, not thermite. How the hell do you get an amorphous blob of thermite to produce a neat vertical "X" as shown directly to the right and the rear of the man in the basket?

QED.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   18:20:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: wudidiz (#189)

of the ones that are bought and paid for and can't think for themselves.

The standard CT last stand response. Anybody who doesn't drink the CT Kool-Aid is a big gubmint sellout.

That's all for today, folks.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-07   18:22:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: AGAviator (#190) (Edited)

Pretty lame. He's up there to cut, and that's what the elongated items in the basket are.

Regardless, we don't know for sure because the debris was carted off before any real investigation was performed on the debris for evidence.

Neither you nor I can claim the above cut was made by a worker with a torch, or thermite. HOWEVER, there IS evidence of thermite, and molten metal WAS seen flowing out of the building BEFORE it collapsed. There is no way in hell the fires were hot enough to melt steel.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-07   18:25:32 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: Original_Intent (#126)

It is always amusing, and always predictable, that when you corner a Septic/Disinformationist that they will focus on a minor detail and attempt to inflate it into a Strawman Argument to divert from the point they are unwilling or unable to address without having their argument filed in "File 13". Next he'll try "Peak Oil" or "Glowbull Warming".

Yeah, or try to tell us what heroes Bush and Obama are.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-07   19:01:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: Original_Intent (#136)

9. Play Dumb.

I don't think Aggravator is playing.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-07   19:03:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: wudidiz (#154)

Jonathan Swift had their number for sure.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-07   19:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: James Deffenbach (#194)

9. Play Dumb.

I don't think Aggravator is playing.

Cold, very cold. Just what I need while I set here sweating and drinking Lemonade.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-07   19:15:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Original_Intent (#196)

Cold, very cold. Just what I need while I set here sweating and drinking Lemonade.

I had to put Aggravator on my clown filter. It made me feel like this

Image
Hosted by ImageShack.us

trying to read his drivel and agitprop.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-07   19:45:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: James Deffenbach (#197)

LOL! The good humor man huh?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-07   20:20:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Original_Intent (#198)

Yeah, something like that.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-07   20:27:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: James Deffenbach (#199)

TWO HUNDRED!

Cheerful.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-07   20:38:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: AGAviator (#119)

Cite specific reports, dealing with specific subjects,blah, blah, blah

OK, So you DO believe and promote the government version of 911.

You're a paid gov shill, I can smell it all over you.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-07   22:58:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: AGAviator, wudidiz (#191)

The standard CT last stand response. Anybody who doesn't drink the CT Kool-Aid is a big gubmint sellout.

That's all for today, folks.

dang! ag you sure do sound like ewecon, a graduate of the ewecon school of debate even.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-07   23:27:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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