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Title: Why I Don't Have Any Use for Truthers
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Published: Jul 9, 2010
Author: Turtle
Post Date: 2010-07-09 11:35:19 by Turtle
Keywords: None
Views: 27463
Comments: 879
Poster Comment: This woman had sulfuric acid thrown in her face by guess who? Someone engaging in Typical Negro Behavior. They do this out of envy. "I can't get this woman, so nobody can have her." He got life in prison. These are the real problems, not hallucinations abour remote-controlled airplanes and bombs in towers.
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#809. To: FormerLurker (#718)
So we have an incident with 2 separate explanations. First from 136 people including 103 who saw the impact saying 1 direction that includes light poles being hit, and second from 2 police officers who recollect different directions not hitting light poles. Both say an aircraft and not a missile hit the building. It's not completely uncommon in crises where there's only split seconds, to have differing eyewitness accounts. That's when forensic analysis comes in.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- lol.......this animation is your evidence? Gee, couldn't the great animators make that video fit in any way that they wanted to? Not only planes knock over light poles, but other objects have this ability while making a much more plausible case for the perfect Pentalawn (TM-- JD).
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Although I'm sure the cartoon cost the taxpayers a lot of money, it is far from convincing. Where are all the rest of the videos? That wasn't the only outdoor camera at the Pentagon.
The animation dovetails perfectly with news photgraphs that are also contained in the video. Including photos from the security camera where the outline of the jet and the trailing smoke from the right engine show faintly but distinctly in a couple frames just before a massive fireball. lol....sitting back in a chair and making flippant internet remarks are your evidence?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Denying and making flippant remarks does not advance your own case of a missile stike and unknown methods of killing all the passengers on the jet. And the "cartoon" has complete conformity with news photos taken of debris and subsequent clean up work.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Are you referring to the photos and the video footage that SHOW NO AIRPLANE? There is no jet outline in that video. The "trailing smoke" is merely a theory created by folks who created the video. You presented the "evidence" and I merely commented on the lack of credibility within it. Epic fail on your part with that one. Gee, I wonder why the DOD doesn't simply release ANY of the video tapes confiscated within an hour of the incident. Can you think of any reason why they wouldn't simply release that evidence? I mean that would provide folks like you who want to promote the government theory with real evidence, rather than splicing pretend airlplane animation with photos in a feeble attempt to make it fit.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Watchu talkin' bout Wud? That cartoon clearly shows a 747 gliding in with no damage to the perfect Pentalawn. Are you claiming that the MOST protected building on the planet, with the MOST protected airspace that happened to be penetrated by 19 evil doers with box knives, had more than one security camara?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
And the "cartoon" has complete conformity with news photos taken of debris and subsequent clean up work. Why can't a single fact or plausible suspicion by brought up as opposed to continuous denial and ridicule and conjecture? If wudidiz would at least place an idea worth research time, I would pursue the same.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Wrong. From 2:26 to 2:31 there is a real photo showing - out of focus, but directly above the tan stand and partially obscured by it - the dark tail fin of the 757. And a trailing spiral of white smoke from the right engine, which had just had pieces of a luminary go into it from a collision with a lamp post. Then the scene reappears, I think running in reverse, from 2:36 to 2:42. As far as Pentagon video photos, don't expect them to have high speed cameras recording the approaches of aircraft traveling hundred of miles per hour. They expected all encounters with fast moving aircraft to take place hundreds of miles away in Air Defense Zones, not on their own grounds. Uhm, like having it in reserve for potential prosecution of criminal cases? Or do you favor the prosecution disclosing every last piece of information they have prior to filing charges or making indictments? How does that lack of providing everything to you, prove a missile hit instead of an aircraft, and all passengers on the 757 were killed elsewhere in some humungous conspiracy and mass murder? Does the fact you don't get to see all the evidence yourself, give you license to promote whatever version you feel like, with zero supporting evidence of your own?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In a couple days I'm going to put together a score sheet showing my evidence, and the unending flippant dismissals, denials of it, and unsupported conjectures, without any back up to support the opposing positions. Then we'll revisit the claims of how I was going to get defeated in all these exchanges presumably because of the great intellectual CT posters here. No hurry, but should be pretty interesting comparison of facts vs. rhetoric.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- We're gonna have to wait in anxious anticipation...
The FDR data released by the NTSB contradicts the "official" flight path. Why is that?
The blue line in the image below depicts the two officer's testimony, the red line is the path YOU and your pals claim the plane took.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#810. To: AGAviator (#808)
#811. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#809)
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#812. To: abraxas (#810)
lol.......this animation is your evidence?
Making a much more plausible case for the perfect Pentalawn (TM-- JD).
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#813. To: wudidiz (#811)
cartoon cost the taxpayers a lot of money, it is far from convincing.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#814. To: AGAviator (#812)
The animation dovetails perfectly with news photgraphs that are also contained in the video.
#815. To: wudidiz (#811)
#816. To: AGAviator, wudidiz (#813)
To wudidiz: Denying and making flippant remarks does not advance your own case of a missile stike and unknown methods of killing all the passengers on the jet.
#817. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#814)
(Edited)
There is no jet outline in that video.
I wonder why the DOD doesn't simply release ANY of the video tapes confiscated within an hour of the incident. Can you think of any reason why they wouldn't simply release that evidence?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#818. To: buckeroo, wudidiz (#816)
If wudidiz would at least place an idea worth research time, I would pursue the same.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#819. To: , *9-11* (#818)
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#820. To: AGAviator (#808)
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#821. To: Critter (#820)
Why is that? Can you be more specific? Whatever happened, needs to explain 5 lamps knocked down, numerous aircraft parts found inside and outside the crash site, over 130 witnesses seeing an airplane coming in, over 100 of them seeing it hitting, knocked sideways construction equipment outside the building, and a reason for a precision collision to hit a reworked section at less than optimum oblique angle which diluted impact force.
The FDR data released by the NTSB contradicts the "official" flight path.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#822. To: wudidiz (#819)
You can always practice your denials, dismissals, cherry picking and selective quotings, and obfuscations.
We're gonna have to wait in anxious anticipation...
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#823. To: AGAviator (#817)
Uhm, like having it in reserve for potential prosecution of criminal cases? There is NO plane in that video. I know you really, really want to see one, but it isn't there. It isn't even there in reverse. lol.....when are these prosecutions for 19 dead evil doers going to take place? OBL isn't even wanted by the FBI in connection to 911, despite Bush claiming he's a "prime" suspect. And how would showing the video of a plane hitting the Pentagon hinder the prosecution in anyway? It doesn't. I never said it was a missile, I said there was NO 747 in the video, other than the cartoon one. What I stated was that other objects, not just a 747 that isn't in your "evidence" could have taken out a few light pole, however I made no claims as to what the other options might be.
From 2:26 to 2:31 there is a real photo showing - out of focus, but directly above the tan stand and partially obscured by it - the dark tail fin of the 757. And a trailing spiral of white smoke from the right engine, which had just had pieces of a luminary go into it from a collision with a lamp post.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#824. To: AGAviator (#822)
You can always practice your denials, dismissals, cherry picking and selective quotings, and obfuscations. I'll let you practice for me.
We're gonna have to wait in anxious anticipation...
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#825. To: wudidiz (#824)
What not giving a shit about who did 9/11 means: not having to wade through 824 posts of ludicrous bouts of parry/thrust over something that simply does not matter. Jesus frapping Christ. 824 posts.
#826. To: abraxas (#823) (Edited)
I didn't say there is a plane showing. The plane body is blocked by the rectangular tan post in the foreground. Only the tail shows, and that is out of focus due to its distance from the tan post. I did say the dark tail is showing out of focus above the rectangular tan post. There is also a spiral of white trailing smoke starting above the red traffic cone to the right of the rectangular tan post. The images are from a fish eye camera which can't be expected to focus in on all things at all distances at the same time. The primary focus of the fish eye camera is the entry gate, not the background. So background items are not as clear and the zoom function is needed to enhance.
There is NO plane in that video. I know you really, really want to see one, but it isn't there. It isn't even there in reverse
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#827. To: Samuel Gray (#825)
827.
824 posts.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#828. To: AGAviator, abraxas (#826)
Where are the rest of the videos? Why is that the only one we get to see?
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#829. To: Samuel Gray (#825)
Preparations to giving the subject a permanent burial.
not having to wade through 824 posts of ludicrous bouts
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#830. To: AGAviator (#826)
Only the tail shows, and that is out of focus a spiral of white trailing smoke images are from a fish eye camera which can't be expected to focus Can't see the damn 747 in other words. Can't see the damn tail in other words. Yes, we can see smoke, smoke is NOT A 747. Perhaps not, but YOU can't EXPECT others to see a 747 that ISN'T there, no matter how much you wish it to appear in the out of focus, blocked view, graining forward and reverse video clip that you are trying to attach to a cartoon and pass off as evidence.
plane body is blocked
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#831. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#830)
Hey, somebody got paid good to make that cartoon!
attach to a cartoon and pass off as evidence
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#832. To: wudidiz (#828)
It's special evidence for the prosecution that isn't ever going to happen. I don't know why this one out of focus video is okay to release, but all the other angles could "jeoapardize" the prosecution according to AGAviator. In other words, it's bovine excrement.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#833. To: abraxas (#832)
So where's your evidence? You've had over 8 years.
I don't know why this one out of focus video is okay to release, but all the other angles could "jeoapardize" the prosecution according to AGAviator. In other words, it's bovine excrement.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#834. To: AGAviator (#833)
The evidence is on those confiscated video tapes........would easily put this to rest. The DOD doesn't respond to my requests for some reason, despite tax dollars paying for all of the coverage. Then there's the private coverage taken from surrounding businesses that the government refuses to return. It's funny that the direct evidence that could prove the government claims is being withheld from the people........don't you find that odd?
So where's your evidence? You've had over 8 years.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#835. To: AGAviator (#806)
Uh huh, sure it is... Your photo is clearly taken after the fire was contained, and after the lawn has been scoured by the FBI and evidence collected.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#836. To: AGAviator (#806)
That "wreckage" (to the right of the car's bumper in the left side of the image) looks like a piece of a model airplane.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#837. To: AGAviator (#806)
So where are the wings? Where is the tail?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#838. To: AGAviator (#808)
So great of an "air cushion" it would have been impossible for a 757 to fly level at that altitude and speed and hit the Pentagon without scraping the ground on the way trying to keep the nose down, or overflying the Pentagon altogether. Nila Sagadevan is an aeronautical engineer and a qualified pilot of heavy aircraft. [Mindfully.org note: Specifications for Boeing 757 and Cessna 172 are from Wikipedia. See other drawing below] There are some who maintain that the mythical 9/11 hijackers, although proven to be too incompetent to fly a little Cessna 172, had acquired the impressive skills that enabled them to fly airliners by training in flight simulators. What follows is an attempt to bury this myth once and for all, because I've heard this ludicrous explanation bandied about, at nauseam, on the Internet and the TV networks" "invariably by people who know nothing substantive about flight simulators, flying, or even airplanes. A common misconception non-pilots have about simulators is how "easy" it is to operate them. They are indeed relatively easy to operate if the objective is to make a few lazy turns and frolic about in the "open sky". But if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 MPH, 30,000 feet above the ground the challenges become virtually impossible for an untrained pilot. And this, precisely, is what the four hijacker pilots who could not fly a Cessna around an airport are alleged to have accomplished in multi-ton, high-speed commercial jets on 9/11. For a person not conversant with the practical complexities of pilotage, a modern flight simulator could present a terribly confusing and disorienting experience. These complex training devices are not even remotely similar to the video games one sees in amusement arcades, or even the software versions available for home computers. In order to operate a modern flight simulator with any level of skill, one has to not only be a decent pilot to begin with, but also a skilled instrument-rated one to boot and be thoroughly familiar with the actual aircraft type the simulator represents, since the cockpit layouts vary between aircraft. The only flight domains where an arcade / PC-type game would even begin to approach the degree of visual realism of a modern professional flight simulator would be during the take-off and landing phases. During these phases, of course, one clearly sees the bright runway lights stretched out ahead, and even peripherally sees images of buildings, etc. moving past. Take-offs "even landings, to a certain degree" are relatively "easy" because the pilot has visual reference cues that exist "outside" the cockpit. But once you've rotated, climbed out, and reached cruising altitude in a simulator (or real airplane), and find yourself en route to some distant destination (using sophisticated electronic navigation techniques), the situation changes drastically: the pilot loses virtually all external visual reference cues. She / he is left entirely at the mercy of an array of complex flight and navigation instruments to provide situational cues (altitude, heading, speed, attitude, etc.) In the case of a Boeing 757 or 767, the pilot would be faced with an EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) panel comprised of six large multi-mode LCDs interspersed with clusters of assorted "hard" instruments. These displays process the raw aircraft system and flight data into an integrated picture of the aircraft situation, position and progress, not only in horizontal and vertical dimensions, but also with regard to time and speed as well. When flying "blind", i.e., with no ground reference cues, it takes a highly skilled pilot to interpret, and then apply, this data intelligently. If one cannot translate this information quickly, precisely and accurately (and it takes an instrument-rated pilot to do so), one would have ZERO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. I.e., the pilot wouldn't have a clue where she / he was in relation to the earth. Flight under such conditions is referred to as "IFR", or Instrument Flight Rules. And IFR Rule #1: Never take your eyes off your instruments, because that's all you have! The corollary to Rule #1: If you can't read the instruments in a quick, smooth, disciplined, scan, you are as good as dead. Accident records from around the world are replete with reports of any number of good pilots "i.e., professional instrument-rated pilots " who ‘bought the farm' because they screwed up while flying in IFR conditions. Let me place this in the context of the 9/11 hijacker-pilots. These men were repeatedly deemed incompetent to solo a simple “Cessna-172”, an elementary exercise that involves flying this little trainer once around the patch on a sunny day. A student's first solo flight involves a simple circuit: take-off, followed by four gentle left turns ending with a landing back on the runway. This is as basic as flying can possibly get. Not one of the hijackers was deemed fit to perform this most elementary exercise by himself, in fact, here is what their flight instructors had to say about the aptitude of these budding aviators: Now let's take a look at American Airlines Flight 77. Passenger / hijacker Hani Hanjour rises from his seat midway through the flight, viciously fights his way into the cockpit with his cohorts, overpowers Captain Charles F. Burlingame and First Officer David Charlebois, and somehow manages to toss them out of the cockpit (for starters, very difficult to achieve in a cramped environment without inadvertently impacting the yoke and thereby disengaging the autopilot). One would correctly presume that this would present considerable difficulties to a little guy with a “box cutter". Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock, who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let's ignore this almost natural reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with this charade. Nonetheless, imagine that Hanjour overpowers the flight deck crew, removes them from the cockpit and takes his position in the captain's seat. Although weather reports state this was not the case, let's say Hanjour was lucky enough to experience a perfect CAVU day (Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited). If Hanjour looked straight ahead through the windshield, or off to his left at the ground, at best he would see, 35,000 feet - - 7 miles - - below him, a murky brownish-gray-green landscape, virtually devoid of surface detail, while the aircraft he was now piloting was moving along, almost imperceptibly and in eerie silence, at around 500 MPH (about 750 feet every second). In a real-world scenario (and given the reported weather conditions that day), he would likely have seen clouds below him completely obscuring the ground he was traversing. With this kind of "situational non-awareness", Hanjour might as well have been flying over Argentina, Russia, or Japan he wouldn't have had a clue as to where, precisely, he was. After a few seconds (at 750 feet per second), Hanjour would figure out there's little point in looking outside - there is nothing there to give him any real visual cues. For a man who had previously wrestled with little Cessnas, following freeways and railroad tracks (and always in the comforting presence of an instructor), this would have been a strange, eerily unsettling environment indeed. Seeing nothing outside, Mr. Hanjour would be forced to divert his attention to his instrument panel, where he would be faced with a bewildering array of instruments. He would then have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position! After all, before he can crash into a target, he has to first find the target. It is very difficult to explain this scenario, of an utter lack of ground reference, to non-pilots; but let it suffice to say that for these incompetent hijacker non-pilots to even consider grappling with such a daunting task would have been utterly overwhelming. They wouldn't have known where to begin. But, for the sake of discussion let's stretch things beyond all plausibility and say that Hanjour - whose flight instructor claimed "couldn't fly at all" - somehow managed to figure out their exact position on the American landscape in relation to their intended target as they traversed the earth at a speed five times faster than they had ever flown by themselves before. Once he had determined exactly where he was, he would need to figure out where the Pentagon was located in relation to his rapidly changing position. He would then need to plot a course to his target (one he cannot see with his eyes - remember, our ace is flying solely on instruments). In order to perform this bit of electronic navigation, he would have to be very familiar with IFR procedures. None of these chaps even knew what a navigational chart looked like, much less how to plug information into flight management computers (FMC) and engage LNAV (lateral navigation automated mode). If one is to believe the official story, all of this was supposedly accomplished by raw student pilots, while flying blind at 500 MPH, (about 750 feet every second) over 30,000 feet high and above the unfamiliar ground, (and practically invisible) terrain, using complex methodologies and employing sophisticated instruments. To get around this little problem, the official storyline suggests these men manually flew their aircraft to their respective targets (NB: This still wouldn't relieve them of the burden of navigation). But let's assume Hanjour disengaged the autopilot and auto-throttle and hand-flew the aircraft to its intended - and invisible - target on instruments alone until such time as he could get a visual fix. This would have necessitated him to fly back across West Virginia and Virginia to Washington DC. - - This portion of the Flight 77's flight path cannot be corroborated by any radar evidence that exists, because the aircraft is said to have suddenly disappeared from radar screens over Ohio, but let's not mull over that little point. - - According to FAA radar controllers, "Flight 77" then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees per minute while descending at 3,500 feet per minute, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver, - - one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn't have spelt the word if his life depended on it. - - The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane." And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him. But even that wasn't good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his "missile" was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon - and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men's lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway - -, there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing. - - I shan't get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.) Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000 pounds airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH. The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jets), i.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile. Why the stipulation of 20 feet and a mile? There were several street light poles located up to a mile away from the Pentagon that were snapped-off by the incoming aircraft; this suggests a low, flat trajectory during the final pre-impact approach phase. Further, it is known that the craft impacted the Pentagon's ground floor. For purposes of reference: If a 757 were placed on the ground on its engine nacelles (I.e., gear retracted as in flight profile), its nose would be almost 20 above the ground! Ergo, for the aircraft to impact the ground floor of the Pentagon, Hanjour would have needed to have flown in with the engines buried 10-feet deep in the Pentagon lawn. Some pilot. At any rate, why is such ultra-low-level flight aerodynamically impossible? Because the reactive force of the hugely powerful downwash sheet, coupled with the compressibility effects of the tip vortices, simply will not allow the aircraft to get any lower to the ground than approximately one half the distance of its wingspan - until speed is drastically reduced, which, of course, is what happens during normal landings. In other words, if this were a Boeing 757 as reported, the plane could not have been flown below about 60 feet above ground at 400 MPH. (Such a maneuver is entirely within the performance envelope of aircraft with high wing-loadings, such as ground-attack fighters, the B1-B bomber, and Cruise missiles - and the Global Hawk.) The very same navigational challenges mentioned above would have faced the pilots who flew the two 767s into the Twin Towers, in that they, too, would have had to have first found their targets. Again, these chaps, too, miraculously found themselves spot on course. And again, their "final approach" maneuvers at over 500 MPH are simply far too incredible to have been executed by pilots who could not solo basic training aircraft. Conclusion In reality, a clueless non-pilot would encounter almost insurmountable difficulties in attempting to navigate and fly a 200,000 pounds airliner into a building located on the ground, 7 miles below and hundreds of miles away and out of sight, and in an unknown direction, while flying at over 500 MPH - and all this under extremely stressful circumstances. About the Author: Nila Sagadevan was born in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and educated in Britain. A former commercial pilot, he holds a degree in aeronautical engineering from the University of Edinburgh and works as a communications consultant. He lives with his wife and son in Laguna Hills, CA. and may be reached at nila@omnicomltd.com source: http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/911_Impossible_Flying_757.html 13jun2006 scaled drawing from Boeing website simplified by Mindfully.org 14jun2006The lawn was not struck because of ground effect, which creates a powerful air cushion beneath a rapidly traveling craft.
The Impossibility of
Flying Heavy Aircraft
Without Training NILA SAGADEVAN / Earth's Common Sense Think Tank 13jun2006
The writers of the official storyline expect us to believe, that once the flight deck crews had been overpowered, using “box cutters" and the hijackers "took control" of the various aircraft, their intended targets suddenly popped up in their windshields as they would have in some arcade game, and all that these fellows would have had to do was simply aim their airplanes at the buildings and fly into them. Most people who have been exposed only to the official storyline have never been on the flight deck of an airliner at altitude and looked at the outside world; if they had, they would realize the absurdity of this kind of reasoning. 
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#839. To: FormerLurker (#835)
Your photo is clearly taken after the fire was contained, and after the lawn has been scoured by the FBI and evidence collected. Uh huh, sure it is... You make my point. Where are the teams of firemen, and the multiple hoses pumping multiple streams of water onto the few remaining burning spots. I see what looks like one hose extending to the end of the lawn with nobody at its end. Where are the fires and firemen tending to the black scorched sections. Last but not least, when was the photo actually taken. How much time after impact, specifically.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#840. To: AGAviator (#809)
So you're saying that the two Pentagon officers who saw an aircraft flying NORTH of the Citgo station are lying?
So we have an incident with 2 separate explanations. First from 136 people including 103 who saw the impact saying 1 direction that includes light poles being hit, and second from 2 police officers who recollect different directions not hitting light poles.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#841. To: AGAviator (#839)
The fire is still burning you moron. Have any pictures of the debris being collected while the fire was still raging? Oh, and where are the wings, and where is the tail?
Where are the teams of firemen, and the multiple hoses pumping multiple streams of water onto the few remaining burning spots. I see what looks like one hose extending to the end of the lawn with nobody at its end.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#842. To: AGAviator (#808)
The video you posted indicates the aircraft that struck the Pentagon took an approach identical to what the 2 police officers witnessed, not what the 100 or so other witnesses saw...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#843. To: FormerLurker (#837)
Remember that "oblique angle" of collision I've mentioned, instead of a 90 degree head on impact? With the oblique angle the starboard wing was impacting the entire wall on its leading edge at the same time, the perfect setup for grinding it into shreds against the building wall almost instantly. The port wing in the oblique angle collision would have been too far away from 90 degrees to do much damage, and could have been easily folded back into the fuselage in the original collision. Finally at impact there was a huge blast igniting the fuel tanks. Whatever didn't get shredded (starboard) or folded back (port) would have been pushed out in all directions into the air, and the fragmented pieces rained back down onto the lawn. Where the pieces were picked up by teams of firemen and FBI gathering evidence. ERROR: 'The Wings of a 757 Should Have Been Visible Outside the Pentagon'
So where are the wings? Where is the tail?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#844. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#842)
It's not the identical angle. Close but not the same. It's much closer to the angle of the blue line than that of the red line though.
The video you posted indicates the aircraft that struck the Pentagon took an approach identical to what the 2 police officers witnessed, not what the 100 or so other witnesses saw...
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#845. To: FormerLurker (#842)
What needs to be explained is the clipping of the light poles, the bumping of the construction materials, the presence of aircraft parts on the lawn, the size of the entry hole, and the presence of scorched aircraft parts inside aand outside the building. In crisis situations forensic analysis is frequently used to corroborate or disprove eyewitness testimony. Many people get convicted by eyewitnesses but later get released when forensics shows they couldn't have done it. Witnesses are a good start, there's usually a germ of truth in their accounts, but aren't always the complete picture of what happened.
The video you posted indicates the aircraft that struck the Pentagon took an approach identical to what the 2 police officers witnessed, not what the 100 or so other witnesses saw.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#846. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, abraxas, James Deffenbach, *9-11* (#843)
The port wing in the oblique angle collision would have been too far away from 90 degrees to do much damage, and could have been easily folded back into the fuselage in the original collision. Finally at impact there was a huge blast igniting the fuel tanks. Whatever didn't get shredded (starboard) or folded back (port) would have been pushed out in all directions into the air, and the fragmented pieces rained back down onto the lawn. Where the pieces were picked up by teams of firemen and FBI gathering evidence. ^This one's new to me. "If physics won't explain it, just make something up that will. Most people are stupid and will believe it just because a University or the Government or the TV says it's true."
With the oblique angle the starboard wing was impacting the entire wall on its leading edge at the same time, the perfect setup for grinding it into shreds against the building wall almost instantly.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#847. To: AGAviator (#843)
Ok, so where's all this evidence? Is it stored somewhere? Where are the pictures of the "evidence" being removed and moved?
Whatever didn't get shredded (starboard) or folded back (port) would have been pushed out in all directions into the air, and the fragmented pieces rained back down onto the lawn. Where the pieces were picked up by teams of firemen and FBI gathering evidence.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#848. To: FormerLurker (#847)
Maybe they hid the evidence so noone could ever prove they didn't have it?
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#849. To: AGAviator (#845)
As far as the two cops, they were both at different locations. They BOTH insist they saw an aircraft fly north of the Citgo station, and impact the Pentagon, and DEFINITELY not coming from south of the Citgo station. They both say they saw light poles go down, but not south of the Citgo station, but on the path that they saw coming from north of the Citgo station. Additionally, the trajectory shown in your video agrees with the more northerly approach, and can not be twisted to show what the offical story's southerly path claims, UNLESS there was a SECOND aircraft that overflew the Pentagon coming from that direction.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
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