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All is Vanity
See other All is Vanity Articles

Title: Why I Don't Have Any Use for Truthers
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jul 9, 2010
Author: Turtle
Post Date: 2010-07-09 11:35:19 by Turtle
Keywords: None
Views: 27344
Comments: 879


Poster Comment:

This woman had sulfuric acid thrown in her face by guess who? Someone engaging in Typical Negro Behavior.

They do this out of envy. "I can't get this woman, so nobody can have her."

He got life in prison.

These are the real problems, not hallucinations abour remote-controlled airplanes and bombs in towers. (1 image)

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: Turtle (#0)

Any other nominations for the most stupid post of the year??

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-09   11:37:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Turtle (#0)

Horrific tragedy, and I mean that sincerely having two daughters of my own, but it is unfortunate [or something else] that you can't see the forest for the trees.

"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2010-07-09   11:40:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Turtle (#0)

That's really some stupid $#it. How does either thing relate to the other? I see no connection. And it's interesting that you "have no use for truthers." You like liars? If you like liars you must worship at Bush's and now Obama's throne.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-09   11:44:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Turtle (#0)

While I am not a truther and believe it is a waste of time to argue back and forth an issue that cannot and will never be proven one way or the other, I do not pretend to assume that I have the right to dictate what is and what is not important to other people. It's not my place nor is it yours. No one really gives a damn why you don't have any use for truthers.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-07-09   11:44:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: All (#0)

The one on the left threw the acid in her face. It was caught on a street camera. The one on the right helped him.

Life in prison. Small consolation for her.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   11:47:57 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: James Deffenbach, randge (#3)

That's really some stupid $#it. How does either thing relate to the other?

Possibly Turtle is demonstrating the time, energy and concern shown for one fact of life as compared to another.

For instance, 9/11 concerned thousands of people as the result of a one day event. The young lady stands alone. Both tragic events as a result of hatred.

The 9/11 event most likely was a one time affair, the haters turning to different people and places. No ONE person singled out. On the other hand the acid attack can and will be faced every day forward in this country all because of color, no other crime or personal slight.

The odds of my being the victim of another 9/11 are very slim, the odds of an attack of some sort because of my color is much, much higher.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-07-09   12:06:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Turtle (#0)

what does your title have to do with this story?

christine  posted on  2010-07-09   12:07:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Turtle (#0)

These are the real problems, not hallucinations abour remote-controlled airplanes and bombs in towers.

You're right. Arguing about 9/11 is a distraction. You say there were no bombs in the towers, I say there were, and so what? You have your opinions, I have mine. None of us have all the pertinent facts, including you. Some just think they do and don't like it when you argue with them. Niggers are more of an imminent threat. That is a fact, not an opinion.

They are the real domestic terrorists. But we all know DHS doesn't care about real terrorism.

.


Click for Privacy and Preparedness files
CHIMPOUT!

Live free or die kill ~~ Me
God is a separatist. That's good enough for me.

PSUSA  posted on  2010-07-09   12:18:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Turtle (#0)

They do it in Africa too; imported people, imported crime.

If there's anything good about the truther stuff, it's getting people thinking about false flags. The "greatest generation" was too damn trusting.

Otherwise, I agree. Total distraction.

Yeah, it might well have been Mossad. Probably was, IMO. But then, I don't give a shit about NYC. It's an outpost of the turd world.

"Aba daba daba daba daba daba daba" said the chimp-y to the monk.

Prefrontal Vortex  posted on  2010-07-09   12:26:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Prefrontal Vortex (#9)

Yeah, it might well have been Mossad. Probably was, IMO. But then, I don't give a shit about NYC. It's an outpost of the turd world.

Fuck NYC. I'm sorry those people died, but it's the financial cesspool of the US and has been damaging the rest of the country for several decades.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   12:28:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Cynicom (#6)

To say that one "has no use for truthers" (people who insist on being told the truth as opposed to people content to hear lies I guess) and superimposing one event on the other like that, when neither are related, makes no sense to me.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-09   12:35:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Prefrontal Vortex, Turtle (#9)

Yes and yes. I don't believe all the "truther" stuff, but I DO believe that much of the truth "behind-the-scenes" is being witheld from the public. I'm more along the lines of a *Pearl Harbor Truther*: it's the events/politics leading up to a real attack that intrigue me.

__________________________________________________________
Obama is the miscegenated bastard of a white communist whore. True story.

“The best and first guarantor of our neutrality and our independent existence is the defensive will of the people…and the proverbial marksmanship of the Swiss shooter. Each soldier a good marksman! Each shot a hit!”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941

X-15  posted on  2010-07-09   12:37:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: randge (#1)

Any other nominations for the most stupid post of the year??

How so?

I believe the Truthers are a government operation to distract people from the problems, such as what happened to this woman.

I've said this before: I will give Truthers ten thousand years to prove their case. They'll never do ti.

But attacks by subhumans...they're going to increase.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   12:39:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Turdle, Turtle, christine, AllTheKingsHorses, all (#0)

So Turdle, are you and Hal Turner close friends?

Any handlers in common?

Isn't it amazing what some people will do for money?

Oh, by the way I've seen the blonde's picture before in a different context.

The other readily apparent difference is that the ears are not the same. Ears are a distinctive feature on a lot of people. Despite the damage to her face they should bear at least some resemblance, but the structure is not at all the same.

I notice also that you did not provide a URL source.

I'm calling Bullshit unless you can provide a source

Got Agitprop?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   12:58:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Turtle, randge, all (#13)

I believe the Truthers are a government operation to distract people from the problems, such as what happened to this woman.

I've said this before: I will give Truthers ten thousand years to prove their case. They'll never do ti.

But attacks by subhumans...they're going to increase.

Nice spin - a double back flip with a twist.

Of course people, thousands of people, who have noticed all of the hundreds of outpoints in the government PsyOp called 911 work for the government.

Tell us Turdle, just between us, do you think everybody but you works for the government?

Got Martians?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   13:01:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Turtle (#0)

Mr. Shellback,

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that you're feeling depressed, isolated, fearful and angry.

I remember when Clinton actually kept a campaign promise and cut some welfare benefits. I was working in a field that took me to many hospitals and institutions, and every time I got on an elevator with or passed blacks in the halls they scowled with a burning hatred for my honky ass.

And, you can bet that this economy has got poor (and dumb, and uninspired, and lazy, and the perpetual victim class) blacks feeling angry. This coupled with the message that "rich and popular black men can have pretty white wimmen but ewe kan't" results in these types of attacks. (if they're envious and angry they'll rape white women, but if they're especially hate-filled they commit unspeakable crimes against the very people they won't admit to objectifying)

You seem to be boiling with a similar anger.

Are you?

You seem to want to convince us that you're better than the nigs who commit horrible crimes like this.

And you seem to be trying to convince yourself that "If you ain't better than a nig then who are you better than?"

And to maximize the reach of your lash you use a non sequitur headline that is aimed at another group you frequently target.

I can only guess at the message you're unknowingly telegraphing, but I'm confident that even the pros would agree that it's a disturbing one.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-09   13:05:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: James Deffenbach (#11)

, makes no sense to me.

I can understand that.

Turtle is a rather complex rascal.

He does not tolerate "truthers" to any degree which is inappropriate, however I understand that so much disinformation has been added to the cauldron that to accept it in totality is no longer feasible.

For instance, one segment insists that an aircraft did NOT impact the Pentagon. Such nonsense clouds the whole picture, dilutes the real interest and serves to make all "truthers" look foolish. The people behind 9/11 love the confusion and wasted effort.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-07-09   13:18:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Turtle (#13)

You any relation to a guy goes by the name of Newswatcher?

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-09   13:22:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Original_Intent, Turtle, christine, AllTheKingsHorses, flintlock (#14)

So Turdle, are you and Hal Turner close friends?

Any handlers in common?

Isn't it amazing what some people will do for money?

I agree that there may be, probably is, people posting here who have handlers. And I'm sure if we all threw out some names there would be many in common. That said, I don't believe turtle is one of them. Course none of us really know the others on this forum even if we have spoken with them privately. I remember a well known poster here insisting that I was a government agent. Laughable at best. And in the same month on two different forums I was alternately accused of being an apologist for Israel and anti Semitic. Hmmm, can you be both?


"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-09   13:25:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Cynicom (#17)

If the word "truther" is used to describe people who want to know the truth about what happened on 9/11 and not just accept the most insane conspiracy of all--the one the government pushes--I would have to accept that label. I guess I have two strikes against me, at least in the eyes of some. I am a "truther" and a "birther" because I want the truth about 9/11 and I want to see Obama's actual birth certificate (a real one that hasn't been doctored will probably prove he was born in Kenya just like his grandmother said).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-09   13:26:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: turtle, Original_Intent, buckeroo (#14) (Edited)

The other readily apparent difference is that the ears are not the same. Ears are a distinctive feature on a lot of people. Despite the damage to her face they should bear at least some resemblance, but the structure is not at all the same.

I notice also that you did not provide a URL source.

I'm calling Bullshit unless you can provide a source

Got Agitprop?

Typical denial mode of a classic CT windbag fuckwit. Harping on minutiae, using self-proclaimed expertise to allege the evidence isn't credible, then using prefab denials citing self as authoritative expert, to dismiss the subject out of hand.

And throwing in a little scatological dig ("Turdle") in the process.

Here's the link, maroon. Now what do you have to say?

Daily Mail UK: I was savagely disfigured by my deranged boyfriend: Acid attack victim bravely shows her face

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-09   13:33:01 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: James Deffenbach (#20)

. I guess I have two strikes against me,

Not at all.

Seekers of the truth are always to be respected.

The Turtle would deny and demean all of them, that is unacceptable. However, some refuse to discredit any portion of the theories projected by the truthers and that also is wrong.

I tend to rely on this, did this government have prior knowledge of and or participate in 9/11???????

I would say the odds favor yes and I accept that. Argue about the nuts and bots involved in the crime???? NO, it only confuses the issue and enables the bad guys.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-07-09   13:39:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Turtle (#0)

Someone engaging in Typical Negro Behavior.

Having gotten to a stage in life where I have neither patience nor time for tact, I'll just leave it at "you're a fucking idiot".

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-09   13:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, X-15, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, buckeroo, turdle, christine, all (#21) (Edited)

...deranged boyfriend...

I can recall news reports of similar events, they are rare, where the perp was white.

All this proves is that there is at least one deranged ex-boyfriend in the world.

It proves absolutely nothing else.

I take it you guys are trying to divert from the other thread where you had your heads handed to you on that stupid conspiracy theory about "19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree" being directed by a mad mullah in a cave in the remote mountains of far Afghanistan with his Magic Cellphone© that were able to hijack 4 airliners, without one of them giving a 4 digit 2 second hijack code, with box cutters and then leisurely joyride in the most controlled and monitored airspace on the planet and then with the precision of Master Pilots (which is pretty slick since they were all known incompetents as pilots and had never flown anything larger than a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172) fly them around for two hours without being intercepted, then with precision fly them into major buildings {and even more miraculously they able to take down 3 Buildings with 2 planes in new york - and presumably the "Psychic Friends Network was on the phone to both CNN and BBC as both reported the collapse of building 7 before it happened, as well despite a minimum of 13 warnings from other foreign intelligence agencies the government had no clue that such an event could be considered or possibly happen (as per White House Spokesliar Ari Fourflusher at a White House News Conference, despite having two years earlier recovered a hard drive from the Phillipines which detailed this exact scenario)}.

You conspiracy kooks are just too rich.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   13:51:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Samuel Gray (#23) (Edited)

To turtle: Having gotten to a stage in life where I have neither patience nor time for tact, I'll just leave it at "you're a fucking idiot".

I suppose you shall be emailing me to provide a method and easy mechanisms to invade turtle's emails (and perhaps place a little non-preemptive ICON on his screen so as to provide a mechanism to monitor turtle's web activities.)

This is going to be GREAT fun! Already, I have turtle's screen background:

I will be digging deeper into his psyche; but don't hold your breath for me to get back to you in a jiffy.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   13:55:51 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Turtle (#10) (Edited)

9/11 wasn't just about NYC and people are still dying and suffering over it. Do you even care how many or who or why? Thousands upon thousands and that's not horrific enough for people who also want to bury the dead in lies or couldn't care less if they are. We thought the Truth would stop it but people like you want to stand in the way. Why? So you can sweep all of the casualties and carnage since then from your mind as "justified" and "unavoidable" based on the imagery of one plane that day and a story told to us from "on high". You don't have any use for Truthers? lol Lots of supposed Truthers and their gurus don't either. They ordered a stand down so they could short sell the Truth in the interest of popular opinion and marketing values. People like me aren't blocking them from pursuing Justice and neither are people like you. They just don't because that wasn't really on their agenda. People like you work for the war drummers, whether you admit it to yourselves or not.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-09   14:00:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Original_Intent, turtle, buckeroo (#24)

I take it you guys are trying to divert from the other thread where you had your heads handed to you on that stupid conspiracy theory about "19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree" being directed by a mad mullah in a cave

No, pathological lying fuckwit, on this thread you just stepped into a pile of your own making by claiming "I call bullshit, give me a link."

Now that I've given you a link, your story changes to "All this proves is that there is at least one deranged ex-boyfriend in the world. It proves absolutely nothing else" and then a segue to your usual word dump, of off-topic irrelevant side issues.

If your "all this proves" dismissal applies, you shouldn't have made your baseless accusation, and demanded proof you wouldn't accept once it was given.

Your constantly shifting pompous tailored dissertations to feebly try to make yourself look better are on full display. Clue to the clueless: The less you say, and the more on topic you stay, the better you will look.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-09   14:04:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Original_Intent, Turtle (#14)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1221077/Katie-Piper-Acid-attack-victim-bravely-shows-face-disfigured-boyfriend-Daniel-Lynch.html

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-09   14:13:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: randge (#1)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-09   14:13:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: X-15 (#12)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-09   14:16:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Original_Intent (#15)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-09   14:17:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Cynicom, All (#22)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-09   14:20:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: buckeroo (#25)

Other than your having a nasty habit of speaking when not spoken to, I'm ambivalent about you either way, buck. As lunatics go, you're an affable enough one.

Turtle, I give less than a fuck about, he just posts douchey, ill-informed shit I have to wade through during my sojourns here.

Besides, why would I ask you anyway? You've proven damn near worthless in turning up anything on my two pet project idiots, yukdouche and Mad Dog.

I'm writing performance reviews for my staff right now. If I was evaluating you on your cybersleuthing, you'd get a "Needs Improvement", which pisses me off, because now I have to write up a development plan and coach you, etc.

Only two things get my attention in any tangible way: payday or pussy, to put it bluntly. Anything else is just idle diversions with which I amuse myself.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-09   14:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Original_Intent (#24)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-09   14:22:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Samuel Gray (#33)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-09   14:23:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: HOUNDDAWG (#16)

You seem to be boiling with a similar anger.

On the contrary, I'm not angry at all. Annoyed, yes

However, I can see what is happening to this country. It is not the same country I grew up in. I never in my life thought I'd had to point a pistol at a bunch of niggers attacking me in the street, which I had to do once. Or chase one around a parking lot in my car, which I also did once.

What is this, Grand Torino?

What exactly do you think of some monkey who throws sulfuric acid in a beautful woman's face because he can't have her and makes to make sure no one

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   14:25:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: buckeroo (#25)

OMG! A beautiful woman and TWO pugs!

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   14:26:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#27)

Now that I've given you a link, your story changes to "All this proves is that there is at least one deranged ex-boyfriend in the world. It proves absolutely nothing else" and then a segue to your usual word dump, of off-topic irrelevant side issues.

I admire O_I's continuing stamina of being beaten to a bloody pulp, time after time. At the very least, you have to give the guy some credit.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   14:28:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Samuel Gray (#23)

Someone engaging in Typical Negro Behavior.

Having gotten to a stage in life where I have neither patience nor time for tact, I'll just leave it at "you're a fucking idiot".

Do you by any chance live in a all-white town?

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   14:30:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Turtle (#39)

I live near a major PhD granting university in a town of about 200,000 in a middle class neighborhood.

One neighbor is black, another is Pakistani, most are white. The guy who sells donuts down the street (and owns six or eight convenience stores) is Indian. My barber is an 86 year old ex-Marine and two of my colleagues are naturalized citizens born in Africa (Malawi and Ghana, I believe).

I'm somewhat absent minded at times and forget to lock doors, or will just throw my truck key in the seat or floorboard (there's two in little magnetic boxes in the wheel wells anyway).

I'm on a first name basis with the family who runs the Greek restaurant, the Indian spice shop and the Armenian/Italian guy who makes the best pizza on the planet. Ditto for the black former NFL player who opened a barbecue joint on Main.

It also used to be a 'sundown town', as well. What's your point (and I only idly ask because it's pouring rain and my afternoon plans of blackberry picking are delayed)?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-09   14:40:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Turtle, Samuel Gray (#39)

Someone engaging in Typical Negro Behavior.

Having gotten to a stage in life where I have neither patience nor time for tact, I'll just leave it at "you're a fucking idiot".

Do you by any chance live in a all-white town?

Do you live in an all-white Trailer Park?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   14:42:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, turtle, buckeroo, christine (#27)

No, pathological lying fuckwit,

Sigh. this gets old real quick. Really, what is the point? I could have sworn we were all adults here. I guess not.


"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-09   14:42:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Samuel Gray (#40)

It also used to be a 'sundown town', as well. What's your point (and I only idly ask because it's pouring rain and my afternoon plans of blackberry picking are delayed)?

My point is that you apparently have little experience with what blacks are like when not partly-civilized by white culture.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   14:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: farmfriend, AGAviator, Original_Intent, turdle, buckerwhoo, christine (#42)

No, pathological lying fuckwit,

Sigh. this gets old real quick. Really, what is the point? I could have sworn we were all adults here. I guess not.

Oh, it does get old after a while, but it is so delightfully amusing to watch the kooks go into melt-down when their pet conspiracy theories are questioned. ;-)

"19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree" who can't fly competently a single engine Cessna can suddenly fly a Jumbo Jet Airliner like a Master Pilot and remain invisible to the most advanced air defense system on the planet for two hours - it is so preposterous as to tickle my funny bone that someone would buy that kind of a conspiracy theory. ROFLMFAO!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   14:50:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#42)

To AGAviator: Sigh. this gets old real quick. Really, what is the point?

Why don't you address your message to O_I, the channel DOOM&GLOOM conspiracy perpetrator? O_I is often obnoxious, lying out his teeth and acting as a whoremonger for anything but the truth.

O_I is not looking for truth or even an opinion. He is looking for a slap on the back called, self-aggrandizing.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   14:56:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Turtle (#43)

partly-civilized by white culture.

"White culture?" That's a pretty low bar in the first place, and is, in its current state, nothing to which one would wish to aspire. (I can almost guess the upcoming rejoinder).

Your generalities are a sign that you're a lazy thinker. That may not be true, but evidence is accumulating to support that hypothesis.

Which particular shining example of "white culture" would you like to hang your argument on today? Lindsey Lohan?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-09   15:00:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, AGAviator, christine (#45)

Why don't you address your message to O_I, the channel DOOM&GLOOM conspiracy perpetrator? O_I is often obnoxious, lying out his teeth and acting as a whoremonger for anything but the truth.

O_I is not looking for truth or even an opinion. He is looking for a slap on the back called, self-aggrandizing.

Of all those that call names on this forum, O_I is the least offensive. Most of his posts are reasoned and learned even if you don't agree with him. Several times I have disagreed with him or had contrary exchanges on minor points. It is always done with intelligence, at least on his part, and respect. I agree with O_I on most every issue yet you would not use the above wording against me.

Personally I think everyone should return to adult decorum.


"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-09   15:07:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Turtle (#36)

Er, that's "Gran Torino" although some do find that auto grand. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-09   15:09:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#24) (Edited)

I take it you guys are trying to divert from the other thread where you had your heads handed to you on that stupid conspiracy theory about "19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree" being directed by a mad mullah in a cave in the remote mountains of far Afghanistan with his Magic Cellphone© that were able to hijack 4 airliners

Although off-point and a distraction, your claims of "19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree" will be rebutted herein just to show how defective your fact-finding and mental processing apparatus are.

(1) Your "Arabs hate us for our freedoms" mythology is a perfect example of how you project your own mental limitations and ***Straw Man Arguemnts*** onto others who dispute you.

During October 2004, Bin Ladin himself appeared on al Al Qaeda TV broadcast addressing this issue and explicitly said that if this were the case, why did al Qaeda not attack Sweden? OBL then went on to explicitly say that US support of Israel was the cause of the 911 attacks, and no other factor.

Your response? Deny that the speaker was OBL, citing your own self attributed pud-pulling analytical expertise, and instead attribute the interview to some vague amorphus gubmint "official story" conspiracy - even though the last thing any "official story" will say is that US support of Israel has caused 911. Typical, however.

(2) Your OBL "mountain caves" were actually skillfully designed and engineered fighting emplacements and weapons storage sites, intended to protect Afghan guerilla supply routes from Pakistan from incessant Soviet bombing and spetsnaz Special Forces attacks.

OBL spent millions of his own and family's money blasting these projects from solid granite, and they were rather successful making Societ air attacks useless, and Soviet Special Forces attacks quite costly. The effect of OBL's "caves" was similar to Hizbollah's "caves" on Israel's 2006 invasion of Southern Lebanon. The vaunted IDF took too many hits and was forced to rethink what it intended to do.

Unfortunately for OBL, in 2001 the US was able to counter his cave advantages by repeatedly sending precision satellite bombs down the vents, one after another until a big enough hole was made, and also using precision thermobaric weapons which killed people inside through blast pressure and sucking oxygen from their lungs. The American technological developments in "cave-busting" are the only factors keeping OBL from living in his "caves" to this day.

But far from being an ignorant 7th century madman, Bin Ladin was able to develop defensive techniques using modern construction and millions of dollars that worked in 1 war and required a major technological effort to overcome in another. So your "Straw Man offical story" projections begin and end only within your own limited brainspace. They have no relevance to what anybody else is saying or thinking outside your own empty noggin.

(3) Far from being ignorant cave-dwellers, the 911 hijacker ringleaders were educated and the principal leader was cited by several instructors as excellent student. OBL did not direct or control them. He couldn't. They lived abroad in free Western societies. As OBL himself says in an interview that you yourself will deny ever happened, OBL gives his role as inspiring others, not directing them, and also providing any needed logistics to do those plans they come up with and attempt to carry out personally.

So once again your "Straw Man offical story" projections become null and void once any space beyond your own head is considered.

Get a life.

And a brain.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-09   15:10:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Samuel Gray (#46)

"White culture?" That's a pretty low bar in the first place, and is, in its current state, nothing to which one would wish to aspire. (I can almost guess the upcoming rejoinder).

Then why does half the world want to move to the US? You know what Africans in Africa are now doing when they see a white man, after they ran the whites out?

"Boss, give me a job."

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   15:12:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Turtle (#50)

Believe whatever seems prudent to you. Your ignorance is irremediable.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-09   15:15:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#47)

Of all those that call names on this forum, O_I is the least offensive.

Have I ever called O_I other than his preferred Internet handle? Please look my posting style up as you have time.

Here is how O_I addresses me in his fucked upped posts:

Barack Obama: Shape Shifting Reptilian Overlord or Pure Human? (#270) [Full Thread] Post Date: 2010-07-08 20:41:26 From: Original_Intent To: wudidiz, buckeroo, Buckmonster Fullofit

In 1903, Cabalist Banker Prophesied Gulf Apocalypse (#22) [Full Thread] Post Date: 2010-06-20 21:03:57 From: Original_Intent To: wudidiz, farmfriend, christine, Nostradumbass, buckeroo, all

Is the BP Gusher Unstoppable? (#30) [Full Thread] Post Date: 2010-06-18 17:53:07 From: Original_Intent To: buckeroo, Buckmonster Fullofit, buckie the government shill, buckie the disinformationist, knothead, christine, abraxas, farmfriend, James Deffenbach, Eric Stratton, Jethro Tull, randge, all

Just a few of the twit's posts directing some harangue towards and about me.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   15:18:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: farmfriend (#47)

Personally I think everyone should return to adult decorum.

As would I, but the kooks cannot allow their fantasies and myths to be questioned rationally without going into neurotic hyperventilation. And facts drive them even more berserk.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   15:18:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Samuel Gray (#51)

Believe whatever seems prudent to you. Your ignorance is irremediable.

Avoid the question, engage in ad hominem attacks.

Pwned.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-09   15:21:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: AGAviator, all (#49)

During October 2004, Bin Ladin himself appeared on al Al Qaeda TV broadcast addressing this issue and explicitly said that if this were the case, why did al Qaeda not attack Sweden? OBL then went on to explicitly say that US support of Israel was the cause of the 911 attacks, and no other factor.

Which has been shown repeatedly to be a fraudulent tape of some actor, who does not even look like a close resemblance to the real Bin Laden, hired to make a bad PsyOps video to justify government actions in murdering millions of people.

Since most of the rest of your drivel depends on that phony tape it is not worthy of any further comment.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   15:21:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Samuel Gray, Turdle, Turtle (#54)

Believe whatever seems prudent to you. Your ignorance is irremediable.

Avoid the question, engage in ad hominem attacks.

Pwned.

Now Turdle is using the misspelled malapropism.

I guess he wants to demonstrate he ain't ignern't.

Whatever.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   15:24:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Turtle (#0)

Title: Why I Don't Have Any Use for Truthers

Turtle, you were that kid who was always throwing rocks at the beehive, weren't you?

TooConservative  posted on  2010-07-09   15:24:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: farmfriend (#47)

Of all those that call names on this forum, O_I is the least offensive.

Of course, on this very thread:

#56. To: Samuel Gray, Turdle, Turtle (#54)

Believe whatever seems prudent to you. Your ignorance is irremediable.

Avoid the question, engage in ad hominem attacks.

Pwned.

Now Turdle is using the misspelled malapropism.

I guess he wants to demonstrate he ain't ignern't.

Whatever.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-09 15:24:17 ET

O_I is a complete fuckup: ATTACKING ANYONE THAT DEFIES HIS OPIN.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   15:36:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Original_Intent (#55)

Which has been shown repeatedly to be a fraudulent tape of some actor, who does not even look like a close resemblance to the real Bin Laden, hired to make a bad PsyOps video to justify government actions in murdering millions of people.

Got links other than Alex Jones?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   15:47:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Eric Stratton (#30)

So you think that WT7 fell all by itself and that the "early" mention of it in the media prior to it actually falling was pure coincidence, eh?

I wasn't there, I didn't see it with my own eyes, therefore I don't have an informed opinion, let alone conviction, as to what may or may not have caused the demise of WT7.

__________________________________________________________
Obama is the miscegenated bastard of a white communist whore. True story.

“The best and first guarantor of our neutrality and our independent existence is the defensive will of the people…and the proverbial marksmanship of the Swiss shooter. Each soldier a good marksman! Each shot a hit!”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941

X-15  posted on  2010-07-09   16:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Turtle (#54)

I don't argue with the retarded guy on Main street who sells the local paper and mumbles to himself about invisible things. Does that mean he "pwns" me? Hardly.

Same with you. You've decided that the bulk of the world's evils can be laid at the feet of 'dem ebil darkies, lawdy mercy'. That gets as tiresome as 'the evil Jews/Zionists/Build-a-Burgers are responsible for my life turning to shit' stuff.

Your vacation threads are mildly amusing. The rest of you, sad to say, is just dumb.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-09   16:59:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#59)

Got links other than Alex Jones?

Report: Bin Laden Already Dead [FOX News]

Has Osama Bin Laden been dead for seven years - and are the U.S. and Britain covering it up to continue war on terror? [UK Daily Mail]


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-09   17:07:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: buckeroo, Buckmonster Fullofit, abraxas, Samuel Gray, James Deffenbach, Turdle, FormerLurker, all (#59)

Earth to bucktard!
Earth to bucktard!
Do you read me bucktard?
There is such a thing as a SEARCH ENGINE if you were really interested in the truth or learning anything - which you are not. However, here is one link out of the 6,149,797 responses to my search terms.

Bin Laden video fake:

47 unique top-ten pages selected from at least 6,149,797 matching results

Here in an analysis of the FRAUDULENT BIN LADEN VIDEO by Mike Rivero at WhatReallyHappened (it just so happens that is how he makes his living i.e., doing video special effects so he is an expert and knows what he is looking at).

The Fake 2001 Osama bin Laden Video Tape

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   17:10:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Turtle (#0)

These are the real problems, not hallucinations abour remote-controlled airplanes and bombs in towers.

Real problems also include the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the wide open southern border and lack of enforcement of immigration laws, corruption, and police state ideology.

What are YOU doing to deal with those things?

Blaming people who care more about it all than you ever will?

This is why I can't stand morons who would rather accept lies and launch ridicule upon those who don't, than open their eyes and accept reality.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-09   17:11:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, all (#62)

Thank you. Of course buckie is not really interested in anything resembling the truth, but he cannot say it is not out there.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   17:11:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Original_Intent (#65)

When have you offered anything other than mind_speak or conspiracy theories to suggest "truth" based upon fact?

I can't think of anytime.... perhaps, you can suggest a time and a place wherein your egocentric mirrored persona was out of the way?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   17:23:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: buckeroo (#66)

When have you offered anything other than mind_speak or conspiracy theories to suggest "truth" based upon fact?

Prove that the conspiracy theory of 19 arabs hating us for our freedoms actually pulled off the 9/11 attacks. Where's the evidence?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-09   17:53:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: buckeroo (#66)

Uh, buck if you didn't insist on coming a'gunnin' fore' me I wouldn't shoot back.

I know you might find that difficult to compehend, but I don't go out of my way to start flame wars. Although, as you can see, I can singe pretty good when provoked.

So, you mess weeth thee bool you get thee horns.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   17:56:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Original_Intent (#68)

Uh, buck if you didn't insist on coming a'gunnin' fore' me I wouldn't shoot play darts, back.

Don't bring darts to a gunfight, to use a popular colloquial, cliché.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   18:04:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: buckeroo (#69)

Whatever. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   18:07:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: FormerLurker (#67)

Prove that the conspiracy theory of 19 arabs hating us for our freedoms actually pulled off the 9/11 attacks. Where's the evidence?

I can't. The way you phrased the question ensures there is no response from me. Still, I question why you would phrase a question like that. You are using popular colloquial expressions assuming I will pong your ping in a way that you can play.

Have you lost your mind?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   18:09:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: buckeroo (#71)

Oh, I made a little grammer mistake, sorry I was in a rush.

Here, can you answer this modified version?

Prove that the conspiracy theory of 19 arabs who hated us for our freedoms actually pulled off the 9/11 attacks. Where's the evidence?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-09   18:13:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Original_Intent (#70)

I pray you don't take issue with my posts such that you lose sight of my regard for you. I think you are an awesome poster; perhaps one of the best that I have met on any forum under the Sun; you are very persuasive and capable of intelligent, deliberate opinion.

The difference between you and me is that you don't add any facts to support or otherwise substantiate your posts; you add hearsay and innuendo to support your perspective. And that same issue is your very own Achilles tendon.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   18:19:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: buckeroo (#73)

Thank you for the kind words. And point granted on not documenting. In part it is because I read so much, and am blessed with a good memory, that often I write on the fly without stopping to nail down references which I'll admit is a bad habit, and as well when I was posting on El Pee I learned that a lot of the people who attacked me were simply attacking and could care less about documentation which they would not read even when I did post it. As well, all modesty aside, a lot of times when I post an analysis it was one I did myself and so the reference IS me. Not to give myself airs but I have a large vocabulary thanks to having a sesquipedalian mother with a love of word play and people sometimes mistake my polysyllabic preferences for snobbery when it's just the way I talk and write all the time. They gave me hell in the service over it.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-09   18:45:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: FormerLurker (#72)

Osama bin Laden did HATE US foreign intervention policy. He initiated al-Qaida after the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Why?

US foreign intervention policy during the 80's with the esteemed Ronny Reagan calling the Afghani's 'freedom fighters' against USSR intrusion. And afterward, that is, after the WIN, the US stopped support.

America does not have a coherent international set of policies and procedures concerning methods of ANYTHING. An empire can not be made based on democracy; it is a total lie and fabrication from little purple faeries whispering in one your ears that understand America is as GREAT as it once was.

America is all about political knee-jerk reactions anymore; meanwhile the rest of the world is winning a better life style while we are stuck with enormous debt and a failing economy.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   18:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: buckeroo (#75)

Osama bin Laden did HATE US foreign intervention policy.

A LOT of people hate US foreign policy. Thing is, none of them had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks.

Bin Laden denounced those attacks, and did NOT accept responsibilty for them, except in videos created AFTER the time he is said to have passed away.

It's pretty obvious those later videos utilized imposters.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-09   19:08:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: FormerLurker (#76)

Got link? Please no Alex Jones and conspiracy web sites.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   19:12:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: buckeroo (#52)

Have I ever called O_I other than his preferred Internet handle?

Just a few of the twit's posts directing some harangue towards and about me.

Hmmm, you think I just made this crap up? Mind you I think all are guilty. Even me on occasion.


"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-09   19:12:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Original_Intent (#53)

but the kooks cannot allow their fantasies and myths to be questioned rationally without going into neurotic hyperventilation. And facts drive them even more berserk.

sounds good to me.


"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-09   19:13:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: buckeroo (#58)

O_I is a complete fuckup: ATTACKING ANYONE THAT DEFIES HIS OPIN.

Pot meet kettle.


"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."
James Madison, Letter to James Robertson, April 20, 1831

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-09   19:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: farmfriend (#78)

Hmmm ....

You are never guilty. You are too factually based to be part of some GRAND conspiracy theory.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   19:15:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Original_Intent (#14)

The other readily apparent difference is that the ears are not the same. Ears are a distinctive feature on a lot of people. Despite the damage to her face they should bear at least some resemblance, but the structure is not at all the same.

I agree - these are two different people.

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-09   19:16:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: buckeroo (#81)

You are too factually based to be part of some GRAND conspiracy theory.

LOL love your sarcasm.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-09   19:18:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: buckeroo (#77)

Got link? Please no Alex Jones and conspiracy web sites.

Already posted in post 62.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-09   19:18:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: FormerLurker (#76)

A LOT of people hate US foreign policy.

Including a lot of Americans. Our government's foreign policy is foreign to the best interests of the United States. They would have done well to heed the words of wisdom of the founders about entangling alliances.

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliance with any portion of the foreign world": it was George Washington's Farewell Address to us. The inaugural pledge of Thomas Jefferson was no less clear: "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations-entangling alliances with none."

How much clearer could they have made it?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-09   19:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Turtle, Original_Intent, christine, all (#0)

The attack on this woman is a terrible, sad tragedy.

To associate this crime with people who care enough about their world that they will devote themselves to exposing a State crime (that is, 9/11) is just wrong and quite sad as well.

Your self hatred for your inability to see the truth about 9/11 is quite sickening and obvious to most posters here.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-09   19:28:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Turtle (#0)

You have no use for people into the truth for what reason?

This is a dumb thread. You would make more sense saying you hate France because it is sort of shaped like a hexigon.

Ferret  posted on  2010-07-09   19:35:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Turtle (#0)

This is what lies yield:

Lies get kids blown up by the thousand. People who support lies are responsible for this shit. That means you.

I had nothing to do with the scum bags that messed up some innocent girl's face. If I had witness it, they'd be dead. You useful idiots have everything to do with thousands of blown up kids. Go fuck yourself. I have no use for you or your kind.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-09   19:39:29 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: X-15 (#60)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-09   19:41:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: FormerLurker (#84)

OK... how about a recent glimpse other than 9 year old data?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-09   19:42:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: buckeroo (#90)

OK... how about a recent glimpse other than 9 year old data?

If he died 9 years ago, don't hold your breath for late breaking news on the matter.

As far as the Daily Mail link which I posted, it delves into the analysis of various newer videos, and what various experts have suggested and/or concluded.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-09   21:17:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#55)

Which has been shown repeatedly to be a fraudulent tape of some actor, who does not even look like a close resemblance to the real Bin Laden, hired to make a bad PsyOps video to justify government actions in murdering millions of people.

Typical whack-job denial.

The explicit messages on the tape are as follows

(1) America was attacked for its support of Israel, not because of its freedoms, which is why America and not Sweden was attacked,
(2) America's military-industrial complex is not working in the best interests of the American people,
(3) The al Qaida plan is to bankrupt America through constant worldwide guerilla warfare, said in 2004 when it appeared the US was in a "no quagmire" and "world economic leader" mindset,
(4) By his eagerness to take the al Qaida bait anywhere on the planet, Obama and Bush are both working together for this same goal of US bankruptcy, albeit for different reasons,
(5) "All that we have to do is to send two Mujahideen to the furthest point East to raise a piece of cloth on which is written al-Qaida, in order to make the generals race there to cause America to suffer human, economic, and political losses without their achieving for it anything of note other than some benefits for their private companies,"
(6) "It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50 000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him. But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers. We were given three times the period required,"
(7) "Your security is not in the hands of Kerry, nor Bush, nor al-Qaida. No. Your security is in your own hands."
To allege that statements like this are a product of US government conspiracies, when the actually clearly describe the US government taking a path to its own destruction, shows a wilful denial of reality and lack of cognitive skills too inferior to even be described by words.

Your mental miasma needs treatment. Get off the internet and clean out your garbage with some form of a mental laxative.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   0:10:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: AGAviator (#92)

You are most amusing. The tape IS a fraud. The man who is allegedly Osama Ben Forgotten has too wide of a nose, is too fat, and in too good of health. In the one autheticated audio tape of Bin Laden addressing 911 he denies having anything to do with it. The reality is that Jorge Arbusto and Fiends needed a boogey man to justify invading Pipelinestan. That was the reason for 911 and it was the reason for this phony video.

You are welcome to believe the PsyOps if you wish after all that's what quislings are paid to do. However, your fatuousity is exceeded only by your gullibility.

More Kool-Aid?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   0:52:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#92)

It doesn't matter what the messages on the tape are.

It's not Bin Laden on the tape.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   0:56:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: All (#94)

WARNING: AGAviator is a paid government agent who is here to spread disinformation. BEWARE!


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   0:58:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: wudidiz, AGAviator (#94)

It doesn't matter what the messages on the tape are.

It's not Bin Laden on the tape.

Exactly. They could have him reciting the Athanasian Creed and it would still be meaningless.

If it is not Bin Laden on the tape, which it is not, then whatever he is alleged to have said on the tape is irrelevant because he never said it.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   1:02:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator, *9-11* (#96)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   1:12:15 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: wudidiz (#97)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-10   1:12:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: James Deffenbach (#20)

and I want to see Obama's actual birth certificate (a real one that hasn't been doctored will probably prove he was born in Kenya just like his grandmother said).

heck. when was the semi blacks name changed to barack h. obama?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   1:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: Original_Intent (#24)

dang it OI now you went and made the resident shill for the liar movement cry.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   1:20:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz, buckeroo, turtle (#96) (Edited)

It doesn't matter what the messages on the tape are.

It's not Bin Laden on the tape.

Exactly. They could have him reciting the Athanasian Creed and it would still be meaningless

Meaningless only to idiots who don't know how to listen and process information to make decisions on.

You claim the 2004 OBL tape is a gubmint fabrication. Based on internet amateur self-taught forensics.

The fact is, the message of the tape is for American people to wake up, understand their government and military-industrial complex are working against them, and to insure their own security by having a country which respects the security of other people in other parts of the world.

The message along with who that message is from is what's important about the tape. It's not about Elvis sightings to any people with brains.

For you to ignore and trash this OBL anti-American government/military complex message as being part of the conspiracy and therefore irrelevant, shows it is you who are the real "false flag operatives."

You pretend to be at the forefront of people desiring change, but you actually impede any meaningful progress by dismissing key and critical messages, diverting event discussions into preprogrammed strident fringe nostrums, and by making just enough background noise to make people considering new perspectives dismiss the whole subject out of hand to return to their comfort zones.

Another key point of who is a "disinfo agent" or "false flag operative" is to look at what side is continuously screaming that label.

"Agent provocateurs" who continually scream how their adversaries are false flags are historically the ones who have been the most compromised themselves.

So deal with it, gubmint shills.

You're phonies and frauds, accusing other people of your own shortcomings.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   1:34:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz (#101)

now the factaphobic is really in a tizzy.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   1:43:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: AGAviator, *9-11*, *Escape From ElPee*, *Humor-Weird News*, buckeroo, Turtle, all (#101)

#101. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz, buckeroo, turtle (#96)

For you to ignore and trash this anti-American government/military complex message as being part of a conspiracy and irrelevant, shows it is you who are the real "false flag operatives."

You pretend to be at the forefront of people desiring change, but you actually impede any meaningful progress by dismissing key and critical messages, diverting event discussions into preprogrammed strident fringe nostrums, and by making just enough background noise to make people considering new perspectives dismiss the whole subject out of hand to return to their comfort zones.

Another key point of who is a "disinfo agent" or "false flag operative" is to look at what side is continuously screaming that label.

"Agent provocateurs" who continually scream how their adversaries are historically the ones who have been the most compromised themselves.

So deal with it, gubmint shills.

You're phonies and frauds, accusing other people of your own shortcomings.

Oh this is rich....


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   1:50:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, Original_Intent (#102)

now the factaphobic is really in a tizzy.

Hahahahaha


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   1:51:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#44)

"19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree" who can't fly competently a single engine Cessna can suddenly fly a Jumbo Jet Airliner like a Master Pilot and remain invisible to the most advanced air defense system.

Another idiotic statement from a non-qualified internet imbecile. This time on aviation.

Anybody with more than a couple hours of flight instruction will tell you the most difficult aspects of flying an aircraft are landings, followed by takeoffs. Keeping a plane going straight and on course even at high speed is maybe 5% of the total knowledge and capability needed.

The above holds especially true in clear and smooth weather with extended visual ability, an autopilot, and a preprogrammed route. There have even been instances where aircrews have been disciplined for not having anyone at the controls for several minutes, and the planes still traveled safely.

The hijackers did not take the planes off themselves, and waited until the planes were at their assigned altitudes before taking over and changing courses on routes that had already been surveyed and plotted. There was nothing to it.

Even so, 2 out of the 4 hijacked planes had problems with their attacks due to unexpected events and inexperienced pilots.

The 270/330 degreee Pentagon hit on the rear of the building, instead of the front where the top officials had their offices. In a descending power turn, the Pentagon attack pilot failed to compensate for increased lift and needed to salvage any hit at all on the building by coming in from the back, and hitting at a less than straight on 90 degree angle.

In the crash in Pennsylvania, the aircraft failed to hit any target because some brave and athletic passengers decided to swarm the attackers and able to overpower them. As recorded by telephone calls at the time they did it.

The New York planes were able to hit their targets. That's 50% success completed missions, maybe give Pentagon another 10%-15% for hitting the Pentagon in a different location than planned, and 0% for the Pennsylvania crash.

So you actually have your "inexperienced pilot" scenario. But since that doesn't mesh with your own mythology you accuse the gubmint of, you dismiss and ignore the facts, as usual.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   1:53:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: IRTorqued (#102)

You wish, pud puller.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   1:54:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: wudidiz (#104)

the goofenheimer must have graduated with top honors from the eweconic school of debate and applied logic .


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   1:54:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: AGAviator (#105)

I see you're still spreading your slime, you worm.

WARNING: AGAviator is a paid government agent who is here to spread disinformation. BEWARE!

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-10   1:55:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#105)

How the hell does he type so fast and WhyTF does he keep pinging buckeroo and Turtle?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   1:55:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: AGAviator (#106)

oh, poor ag crying like a school girl.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   1:55:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: wudidiz, buckeroo, turtle (#103)

Oh this is rich....

With all your thousands of internet sites, billions of words, and nearly 9 years you $hitbrains have had to get your 911 k00kology together, tell me exactly how how many people up for election this November will be quoted on your 911 whodunits?

Oh, and how are the BC lawsuits going?

BVWAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!

Now that's what's rich, losers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   1:59:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: wudidiz (#109)

peas of pod, queers in a condo, the other two ids residing in his brain ( it's a studio apartment kinda thing) what little there is?.? he keeps posting the same crap because those are the current ideas bouncing around like a pong graphic in his mostly empty cranium.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   2:01:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Flintlock (#108)

>

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   2:03:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: IRTorqued (#112)

a pong graphic

LOL!!


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   2:06:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: IRTorqued, buckeroo, turtle, cynicom (#110)

oh, poor ag crying like a school girl.

Crying about many k00ks -zero - you're getting elected?

Crying about how many Obama BC lawsuits -zero - are proceeding in court?

Crying about how you have reached the mindless state where all you can do is repeat the same old insults and look for strokes from each other?

BWAHAHAHAHAAH!

Losers.

Nobody pays good money for communications to losers.

You're irrelevant.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   2:07:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: AGAviator (#113)

Noam Chomsky's Jewish, of course he's gonna say that.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   2:07:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: wudidiz, turtle, buckeroo, cynicom (#97)

I suppose this wasn't Saddam either.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   2:15:49 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: AGAviator (#117)

That looks very much like the same person. Different hair length and one has a beard while the other doesn't.

Not really a fair comparison because of the different angles.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   2:24:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: randge (#1)

Any other nominations for the most stupid post of the year??

Yeah, here.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   2:27:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: wudidiz (#118)

That looks very much like the same person.

You should be aware at one time there were a lot of postings that it wasn't Saddam who got actually captured, both because Saddam used doubles, and also because some amateur internet forensicists nit picked over picture details, just like they're doing with the OBL 2004 shots.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   2:48:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: IRTorqued (#100)

dang it OI now you went and made the resident shill for the liar movement cry.

I had no idea he was so sensitive over the Psychic Friends Network. Honest.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   2:49:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: AGAviator (#120)

You should be aware at one time there were a lot of postings that it wasn't Saddam who got actually captured, both because Saddam used doubles, and also because some amateur internet forensicists nit picked over picture details, just like they're doing with the OBL 2004 shots.

I'm aware of that.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   3:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: AGAviator (#120)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   3:13:13 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: wudidiz, critter, budkeroo, turtle (#95)

WARNING: AGAviator is a paid government agent who is here to spread disinformation. BEWARE!

Warning, 2 Different NYFD Fireman Say Building 7 Will Collapse From Existing Damage.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   5:22:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: AGAviator (#124)

WARNING: AGAviator is a paid government agent who is here to spread disinformation. BEWARE!

I don't know that you're a paid government agent, but I do know you're spreading disinformation.

Building 7 fell from controlled demolition.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   5:30:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, Eric Stratton, IRTorqued, AGAviator, Flintlock, *9-11* (#124)

This video I've never seen before. Strange. Something seems fake about it.

Why would the firefighter say, "See the way it's leaning over like that? It's definitely gonna fall. There's no way to stop it..."

Have you seen it before?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   5:39:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: wudidiz (#125)

Building 7 fell from controlled demolition

Tell it to a fireman.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   5:43:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: wudidiz, buckero, criter, turtle. (#126) (Edited)

Why would the firefighter say, "See the way it's leaning over like that? It's definitely gonna fall. There's no way to stop it..."

Have you seen it before?

He had already put a transit on the building several hours previously, and over that time observed a gradual leaning of critical components, as the building mass got re-distributed from damaged columns to more intact ones.

Which columns themselves were subject to stresses from their own damages, from uncontrolled fires fed by tens of thousands of gallons of diesel fuel, and misdirected forces.

Like he said, "There's no way to stop it."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   5:47:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Original_Intent, IRTorqued, critter, buckeroo, turtle (#121) (Edited)

so sensitive over the Psychic Friends Network. Honest.

Hey internet CT pushers!

Did ya happen to know that over 6 times as many Americans (50%) believe that UFO aliens have abducted humans, than believe it was "very likely" that the WTC Towers were brought down by "secretly planted explosives (6%)?"

Of course you didn't!!!!!!!

That suuure is a select group of people you're included in.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!

Poll: U.S. Hiding Knowledge of [UFO] Aliens

Sixty- four percent of the respondents said that aliens have contacted humans,
Half said they've abducted humans, and
37 percent said they have contacted the U.S. government
.

The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

911 Conspiracy Theories

The collapse of the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings"

• 77% "unlikely"
• 10% "somewhat likely"
• 6% "very likely"[13]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   7:29:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: AGAviator (#129)

Did ya happen to know that over 6 times as many Americans (50%) believe that UFO aliens have abducted humans, than believe it was "very likely" that the WTC Towers were brought down by "secretly planted explosives (6%)?"

Of course you didn't!!!!!!!

That suuure is a select group of people you're included in.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!

The masses are usually mistaken ... as demonstrated by your post.

Are you being paid to report this nonsense ?

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces

noone222  posted on  2010-07-10   7:35:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: IRTorqued (#99)

heck. when was the semi blacks name changed to barack h. obama?

They claim that that is his given name at birth. Then when his mother married the Soetoro guy he allegedly adopted him and that changed his name to Soetoro (sp?). When he changed it back I have no idea. Nor any idea how many names he has used--I have read that he has as many as 27 different Social Security numbers. If so he would have to have at least 27 names.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   8:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: wudidiz (#126)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-10   9:33:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: AGAviator (#129)

I see you have received the coveted "PSY-OP" award, not just once but several times on this thread; you have even received blinky warnings in black, bold hyper font from time to time! This is an honour that only a few of us esteemed patriots can sport about the 4um. You have made the BIG_TIME.

BTW, you win the thread. Good job, that took a lot of perseverance and tenacity.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   10:49:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: AGAviator (#111)

and nearly 9 years

That's one of the most puzzling things about it. What kind of people hold a trial for nine years and can't find any evidence, but won't give up? It's same same with the Kennedy murder -- going on 50 years and they can't give up.

On the other hand, if they were the target for 50 years of conspiracy kooks, they'd be howling bloody murder. "What is wrong with you nuts? Can't you see I'm innocent? You don't have an atom of proof!"

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-10   10:55:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: AGAviator (#111)

killtown.911review.org/ 911smokingguns.html

250+ 9/11 'Smoking Guns' Found in the Mainstream Media

christine  posted on  2010-07-10   11:07:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Turtle (#134) (Edited)

for someone with a big brain, it sure the hell is narrow.

Edit: make that self reported big brain

christine  posted on  2010-07-10   11:08:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: christine (#136)

for someone with a big brain, it sure the hell is narrow.

You must not be reading the same Turtle "data set" as I have been to draw the first part of your inference.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-10   11:10:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Samuel Gray (#137)

note my edit

christine  posted on  2010-07-10   11:11:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: christine (#138)

note my edit

Thank you. Be thankful that his brain is all he's waving around the site, claiming it's big and spectacular when it's...not.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-10   11:13:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: TooConservative (#57)

Turtle, you were that kid who was always throwing rocks at the beehive, weren't you?

I wasn't THAT dumb, but I did make thermite when I was 12 and 13.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-10   11:22:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Samuel Gray (#61)

You've decided that the bulk of the world's evils can be laid at the feet of 'dem ebil darkies, lawdy mercy'.

No, I don't. But I do know blacks and "Hispanics" are responsible for an enormous amount of crime in the U.S. I once met the mother of two teenage girls who were raped and murdered buy three blacks and one 15-year-old whigger -- murdered by being thown off of a bridge into the Mississipi. Can you say you've met such as mother?

As for Jews, Jewish Bolshevists murdered at least 20 million Russians, and have been expelled more than 100 times. U.S. Grant ried to expell them during the War between the States. Buy you didn't know any of this, do you?

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-10   11:30:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: buckeroo (#133)

BTW, you win the thread. Good job, that took a lot of perseverance and tenacity.

It takes a lot of ignorance to believe that Aggravator has "won" anything on this thread. He showed himself to be a pro-government stooge who swallows their lies if that is what you think of as a "winner."

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   11:48:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#142)

He showed himself to be a pro-government stooge who swallows their lies

Where has AGAviator taken a "pro-government" perspective?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   11:50:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: Turtle (#141)

And I should allow all that minutiae to clutter my brain....why?

You must hang out in some shit neighborhoods.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-10   11:54:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: buckeroo (#143)

Anyone who believes that stupid government conspiracy theory has a "pro-government" perspective. That is the wackiest theory of all. Ten thousand of the best clowns Ringing and Brothers has, has had, or will ever have, couldn't make up a story so stupid and lame. Yet nuts like Aggravator fell for it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   11:54:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: Samuel Gray (#144)

You must hang out in some shit neighborhoods.

Met her in a lawyer's offfice in a downtown highrise in St. Louis.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-10   11:57:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: James Deffenbach (#145)

Beyond suspicion and doubt (which has been presented) where is there any direct proof and about government intervention concerning 9-11 other than after the devastating events?

To pull off a mammoth tragedy like this would have taken hundreds if not thousands of personnel. And since 9-11, where are any of the whistle-blowers?

To support a thesis based on reality requires not mere suspicion of a given phenomena. It requires supporting facts and a tragedy this large should have produced eye-witnesses by now.

The events of 9-11 were pulled off by terrorists here in this country designed and planned in the ME, principally from Saudi Arabia. It was a carefully co-ordinated attack, timed to occur simultaneously at several destinations with a minimum of resources maximizing the devastation.

The issues were about America's continuing support of and about Israel particularly as the US has aided and (indeed) orchestrated despair with the Palestinians. It was greatly influenced by the fall of the USSR's attempt to control Afghanistan while the US aided the "freedom fighters" there and then later vacated further assistance in the 1990s. There were other attempts in NYC in the 1990s that clearly show the contempt of the Taliban and the al-Qaida, as well.

Now, I think the US government unintentionally received what is popularly referred to as "blowback; that is, the US government (particularly through the US state department and the CIA) created the sentiment of resentment based upon bungling and blundering our own official policies and procedures.

But there was a strategic focus beyond anything mentioned which was the oil pipelines that were the REAL issues although never discussed from a formal US point of view. Those pipelines were worth far more than any war.... they were worth the sanctity of the US people to continue their unrelenting gluttony of sucking 25% of the world's oil supplies. So, it was really a sustaining mission and continues to this very day AND they is why you see politicians consistently flip-flop about their perspective of getting out.

If America were truly attempting to modify it's methods of energy supplies (say adding nuclear power plants as China is performing) we could be out of the ME in no time at all. But, we don't do it. The politicians are controlled by powerful lobbyists that ensure ample rewards back to the politicians to continue sustaining America's oil gluttony.

There is a threshold of pain that the American people require before we adopt alternative energy methods .... when that level of pain hits, it shall take years to develop and ensure ample distribution methods and through that period of time Americans are going to suffer BIG_TIME.

But, we lack a need to modify our dependence on oil just yet. We have BP and deepwater technologies to thank for that.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   12:27:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: buckeroo (#147)

To pull off a mammoth tragedy like this would have taken hundreds if not thousands of personnel.

Yes, and no one has ever said a word. They haven't got drunk, or confessed on their deathbed, or found Jesus, or been overcome with guilt or gone on Oprah, or best of all, come clean because they're afraid another conspiracist is going to kill them to sure they won't talk.

Nope, every one of them, all thousands of them, are keeping their lips zipped, showing complete loyalty to their cause.

It's all nonsense, because the only way two people can keep a secret is if one of them is dead.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-10   12:33:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: buckeroo (#147) (Edited)

To support a thesis based on reality requires not mere suspicion of a given phenomena. It requires supporting facts and a tragedy this large should have produced eye-witnesses by now.

There were millions of "eye witnesses" who saw the Salomon Brothers Building fall into its own footprint in about as close to free fall speed as you could imagine. For those who might not know that is in reference to WTC 7, the building which fell even though no plane hit it. And no other steel-framed skyscraper ever before or since has fallen due to fire damage, though some have burned much longer and hotter.

One Meridian Plaza is a 38-floor skyscraper in Philadelphia that suffered a severe fire on February 23, 1991. The fire started on the 22nd floor and raged for 18 hours, gutting eight floors and causing an estimated $100 million in direct property loss. It was later described by Philadelphia officials as "the most significant fire in this century".

The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.

The First Interstate Bank Fire

The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles that suffered the worst high-rise fire in the city's history. From the late evening of May 4, 1988 through the early morning of the next day, 64 fire companies battled the blaze, which lasted for 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor, and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. The fire caused an estimated $200 million in direct property loss.

A report by Iklim Ltd. describes the structural damage from the fire: In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans.

The 1 New York Plaza Fire

1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970. The fire started around 6 PM, and burned for more than 6 hours.

Caracas Tower Fire

The tallest skyscraper in Caracas, Venezuela experienced a severe fire on October 17, 2004. The blaze began before midnight on the 34th floor, spread to more than 26 floors, and burned for more than 17 hours. Heat from the fires prevented firefighters from reaching the upper floors, and smoke injured 40 firefighters.

Lax enforcement of fire codes in Venezuela was blamed for the malfunctioning of water pumps and a lack of fire extinguishers inside of the building. Because the building was empty when the fire broke out, no civilians were killed or injured.

The Beijing Mandarin Oriental Hotel Fire

The most recent example of a spectacular skyscraper fire was the burning of the Hotel Mandarin Oriental starting on February 9, 2009. The nearly completed 520-foot-tall skyscraper in Beijing caught fire around 8:00 pm, was engulfed within 20 minutes, and burned for at least 3 hours until midnight. Despite the fact that the fire extended across all of the floors for a period of time and burned out of control for hours, no large portion of the structure collapsed....

And then there was the obvious stand down by the Air Force that day. Despite normal intercept times of between 10 and 20 minutes for errant domestic flights, the airliners commandeered on 9/11/01 roamed the skies for over an hour without interference. And this in one of the busiest, if not the busiest, air traffic corridor in the world? Give me a break! 9/11 was either a MIHOP or a LIHOP. The government either made it happen on purpose or let it happen on purpose. No other explanation explains all the anomalies and the facts that are known.

edited to remove footnote numbers since no footnotes are included here.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   13:01:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: noone222, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#130)

The masses are usually mistaken ... as demonstrated by your post.

Are you being paid to report this nonsense ?

As far as being paid, again. No one pays good money to send a message to losers. The only places you're important are your own minds.

As I've already said, you've had (1) Almost 9 years, (2) Thousands of websites, and (3) Billions of words, to make your case.

Your results: Almost zero, with 6 times more people believing in UFO abductions, or Elvis sightings, than buy into the "USG controlled demolition" theories.

You haven't persuaded anybody, and only serve the role of a freak circus sideshow from the existential questions the country needs to face.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   13:03:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: critter, buckeroo, turtle (#149) (Edited)

And no other steel-framed skyscraper ever before or since has fallen due to fire damage, though some have burned much longer and hotter.

Walls & Ceilings: 1967 Heavy Steel Contstructed McCormick Palace Collapses from Fire Within 30 Minutes

As an example of the damaging effect of fire on steel, in 1967, the original heavy steel-constructed McCormick Place exhibition hall in Chicago collapsed only 30 minutes after the start of a small electrical fire.”

Although the [WTC] buildings were designed to withstand a collision with a 200,000- pound Boeing 707, that theory obviously was never tested before. Nor did the designer claim to take into account that thousands of gallons of jet fuel might someday be spread throughout the floors of a crash area and down both elevator and other vertical shafts, according to Moore. He was also one of the few experts who was not surprised that the buildings collapsed.

“I was more surprised the [WTC] buildings didn’t collapse immediately upon impact,” Moore says. “The buildings were designed so that the exterior 39-inch on-center, 14-inch square steel box columns produced a building resembling a steel tube. The center steel core carried gravity loads only. One of the videos shows the plane going in one side and coming out the other, thus compromising a major portion of the structural integrity of the building . We were very fortunate that the buildings didn’t fall horizontally and strike surrounding buildings.”

“The structure was only designed to carry the weight of the contents, snow load, wind load, etc.,” Carter adds. “Once you add the momentum of the upper floors crashing down, the lower floors would collapse, as well.”

Moore also remains unconvinced of the presence of explosives.

“An analogy,” he says, “is the classic cheerleader-type pyramid of bodies: If the three people on top suddenly fall all at the same time, everybody on the bottom is probably going to fall as well and the pyramid crumbles. Also, when buildings are imploded, they place explosives on the lowest floor(s) and at least one more upper floor to start the momentum. If you just shot the first floor, the rest of the building might remain supported by the second floor and not completely fall.”

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   13:13:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: James Deffenbach (#149)

There were millions of "eye witnesses" who saw the Salomon Brothers Building fall into its own footprint in about as close to free fall speed as you could imagine. For those who might not know that is in reference to WTC 7, the building which fell even though no plane hit it. And no other steel-framed skyscraper ever before or since has fallen due to fire damage, though some have burned much longer and hotter.

Did you write this? If not, I want a hot link to the comment.

Now, let me say this: WTC-7 was brought down because it was falling anyway. It was tremendously weakened from the earlier concussion from and about the twin towers.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   13:21:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Flintlock, Original_Intent, farmfriend, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#142)

It takes a lot of ignorance to believe that Aggravator has "won" anything on this thread. He showed himself to be a pro-government stooge who swallows their lies if that is what you think of as a "winner."

Hey Six Percenters!

Did ya happen to know that over 6 times as many Americans (50%) believe that UFO aliens have abducted humans, than believe it was "very likely" that the WTC Towers were brought down by "secretly planted explosives (6%)?"

Of course you didn't!!!!!!!

That suuure is a select group of people you're included in.

BWAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!!!

Poll: U.S. Hiding Knowledge of [UFO] Aliens

Sixty- four percent of the respondents said that aliens have contacted humans,
Half said they've abducted humans, and
37 percent said they have contacted the U.S. government
.

The poll has a margin of error of plus or minus 3 percentage points.

911 Conspiracy Theories

The collapse of the twin towers in New York was aided by explosives secretly planted in the two buildings"

• 77% "unlikely"
• 10% "somewhat likely"
• 6% "very likely"[13]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   13:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: buckeroo (#152)

Did you write this? If not, I want a hot link to the comment.

Yes, I did write it and it's true. It was falling? Curious that, since none ever had before and none have since. Better get off that Sterno, buck. That $#it is gonna kill you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   13:23:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: James Deffenbach, turtle, critter, buckeroo (#154) (Edited)

Yes, I did write it and it's true. It was falling?

Yes, Six Percenter, not only was it slowly leaning over and getting ready to fall, a NYFD fireman was interviewed at the time and said, on camera,

"See the way it's leaning over like that? It's definitely gonna fall. There's no way to stop it...You have to go up in there to put it out..but the structural integrity is not there."

QED

pwned.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   13:28:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: James Deffenbach (#154)

It was falling?

Yes. It was planned anyway and was largely vacated other than a few management offices.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   13:30:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: AGAviator (#155)

Good post @155 by yourself.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   13:32:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: buckeroo (#156)

Yes. It was planned anyway and was largely vacated other than a few management offices.

Apparently they were all planned since no other steel-framed skyscraper has ever fallen due to fire either before or since. And they were designed to withstand the impact of the planes so that is a non starter.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   13:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: James Deffenbach (#158)

And they were designed to withstand the impact of the planes so that is a non starter.

I have to simply GIVE_UP on this discussion. You remind me of a washing machine going through a spin-cycle.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   13:37:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: buckeroo (#157) (Edited)

Good post @155 by yourself.

Thanks. I'm really getting tired of the Six Percenters throwing their ad hominem stink bombs whenever they get defeated on argument.

Here's video of another class of Six Percenter - the kind who denies a moon landing took place - getting clocked by 72-year old astronaut Buzz Aldrin after the k00k walked up and pestered Aldrin, demanding he swear on a Bible he walked on the moon, then calling him a coward, a liar and a thief.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   13:37:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: AGAviator (#160)

If you have a few moments and can tolerate a few spelling errors, take a peek at my post @147. It outlines my comprehensive opinion.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   13:39:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: buckeroo (#159)

Anyone who believes that stupid $#it the government put out might as well give up. Sane people don't believe that 19 ragheads sitting around in a cave somewhere in Bum-ef-I-stan outsmarted the best air defenses in the world, had incompetent "pilots" fly commercial jets into two big landmark buildings and the heart of the nation's military complex, all because they "hate our freedom." Complete and total bs!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   13:42:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: James Deffenbach (#162)

Anyone who believes that stupid $#it the government put out might as well give up.

Where are the government whistle blowers? Don't you believe that there are a few patriots working in government that would have come forth and denied the BS, assuming there was some?

No ..... you got it wrong. No one in our government would create the havoc that created this sort of devastation against innocent people. And, even if there were some with a shadow of evil intent, they would have eventually brought forth the 1) planning, logistics, execution, leadership and chain of command to initiate the order.

The punk GWBush was reading about goats to a kindergarten class in Florida that same time and day. He didn't have a fucking clue.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   13:52:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: AGAviator (#150)

OK, you win. Now I believe in UFOs. (NOT !)

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces

noone222  posted on  2010-07-10   13:54:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: buckeroo (#163)

No one in our government would create the havoc that created this sort of devastation against innocent people.

That must be some extra strength Sterno you are imbibing. The government wouldn't "create devastation against innocent people." I call bs on that too! Have you forgotten Waco and Ruby Ridge? Ever hear of Gordon Kahl? And that is just a few of the Americans they have murdered. Not even counting the innocent foreigners who have been killed for no reason or for reasons (or excuses) proven to be bs.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   13:57:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: buckeroo (#163)

The punk GWBush was reading about goats to a kindergarten class in Florida that same time and day. He didn't have a fucking clue.

And btw, I never have said Bush planned anything. Bush couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery. But that doesn't mean that the government, the government which he represented at the time (the chief figurehead if you will), can't plan and execute schemes to kill many people if it furthers their schemes. Even many thousands of people. As long as it is not them or some of their family they don't give a $#it about America or Americans.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   14:00:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: James Deffenbach (#165)

Have you forgotten Waco and Ruby Ridge?

Bungling ATF government officials ..... BTW, these events were planned and timed during by the "read my lips no new taxes" liar in chief GHBush.

These events take years in planning and logistical operations by government. The ATF even built a mock up of the Branch Davidian Church months in advance to prepare for the massacre.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   14:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Turtle (#0)

I suppose it's rank heresy, stepping on the third rail, etc, to say this, but after almost 170 replies, it may as well be said as not:

I don't really give a rat's ass who brought the WTCs down. Not sure I ever have, past maybe six months to a year afterward. It's a fait accompli and all this mental masturbation amounts to a complete waste of time.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-10   14:07:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: buckeroo (#167)

These events take years in planning and logistical operations by government. The ATF even built a mock up of the Branch Davidian Church months in advance to prepare for the massacre.

And with that I think you disproved your own point. Said point being, "No one in our government would create the havoc that created this sort of devastation against innocent people." A few hundred, few thousand, it's all the same to them as long as it is just some serfs and peons.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   14:09:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: buckeroo (#147) (Edited)

To pull off a mammoth tragedy like this would have taken hundreds if not thousands of personnel. And since 9-11, where are any of the whistle-blowers?

Yes, after nearly 9 years, not a single conspirator has undergone a deathbed conversion. Not one.

The events of 9-11 were pulled off by terrorists here in this country designed and planned in the ME, principally from Saudi Arabia. It was a carefully co-ordinated attack, timed to occur simultaneously at several destinations with a minimum of resources maximizing the devastation.

Yes, OBL says as much in his October 2004 Complete Transcript

And so it has appeared to some analysts and diplomats that the White House and us are playing as one team towards the economic goals of the United States even if the intentions differ.

And it was to these sorts of notions and their like that the British diplomat and others were referring in their lectures at the Royal Institute of International Affairs (when they pointed out that) for example, al Qaeda spent $500,000 on the event, while America in the incident and its aftermath lost- according to the lowest estimate-more than 500 billion dollars, meaning that every dollar of al-Qa'ida defeated a million dollars by the permission of Allah besides the loss of a huge number of jobs.

As for the size of the economic deficit, it has reached record, astronomical numbers estimated to total more than a trillion dollars.

And even more dangerous and bitter for America is that the Mujahedin recently forced Bush to resort to emergency funds to continue the fight in Afghanistan and Iraq which is evidence of the success of the bleed- until-bankruptcy plan

The issues were about America's continuing support of and about Israel particularly as the US has aided and (indeed) orchestrated despair with the Palestinians. It was greatly influenced by the fall of the USSR's attempt to control Afghanistan while the US aided the "freedom fighters" there and then later vacated further assistance in the 1990s.

A little known fact about the Afghan mujahideen in the 1980's is that most of the Afghans who were actually fighting the Red Army and their communist surrogates didn't want any foreigners from Egypt or Saudi Arabia.

The idea of sending people from abroad to fight with the Afghans originated in Cairo and Saudi Arabia. These countries wanted to get rid of their dissidents opposed to Israel, and hopefully get the dissidents killed in a jihad abroad.

Unfortunately, few of the dissidents took the bait, and once in Pakistan, started politicking in Peshawar instead of going to the fronts. OBL was the one exception to that, and his courage and willingness to fight up front and spend his own money to build fortifications, is the reason he is still revered there to this day. And why it is just about impossible for anyone to turn him in no matter what money is offered.

Now, I think the US government unintentionally received what is popularly referred to as "blowback; that is, the US government (particularly through the US state department and the CIA) created the sentiment of resentment based upon bungling and blundering our own official policies and procedures.

The biggest cause of blowback was the false US assumption that the foreign jihadi would take the bait and let themselves be used as cannon fodder in the Afghan jihad.

The US played the foreign jihadi for suckers, and instead the jihadis saw through the smokescreen and out smarted the US using American money to build their own organizations, infrastructure, and connections. Which continue to this day.

But there was a strategic focus beyond anything mentioned which was the oil pipelines that were the REAL issues although never discussed from a formal US point of view. Those pipelines were worth far more than any war.... they were worth the sanctity of the US people to continue their unrelenting gluttony of sucking 25% of the world's oil supplies. So, it was really a sustaining mission and continues to this very day AND they is why you see politicians consistently flip-flop about their perspective of getting out.

If America were truly attempting to modify it's methods of energy supplies (say adding nuclear power plants as China is performing) we could be out of the ME in no time at all. But, we don't do it. The politicians are controlled by powerful lobbyists that ensure ample rewards back to the politicians to continue sustaining America's oil gluttony.

During the 1980's there was a big focus on conserving oil. Then in the 1990's when it appeared America would be the "world's superpower," we gave ourselves a victory present: Faster highway speeds, less conservation rules, Hummers getting single digit MPG, and general wastefulness of a dwindling natural resource. Meaning, when when a shortage does hit, it's going to be pretty brutal.

There is a threshold of pain that the American people require before we adopt alternative energy methods .... when that level of pain hits, it shall take years to develop and ensure ample distribution methods and through that period of time Americans are going to suffer BIG_TIME.

But, we lack a need to modify our dependence on oil just yet. We have BP and deepwater technologies to thank for that.

With 3-6 Americans killed per day in Afghanistan by the "7th century cave dwellers," the supposed "no quagmire" and "the terrorists have elected to receive" zone, and an economy with no new jobs teetering on the brink of collapse, and pressure from the Tel Aviv overlords to attack Iran, I think there is going to be a pretty rapid unraveling before year end.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   14:16:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: James Deffenbach (#169)

A few hundred, few thousand, it's all the same to them as long as it is just some serfs and peons.

I fully respect your opinions for being critical and suspicious of government operations. And, in large part, I am 100% with you as this nation is failing and there is no other precedence in our history.

Towards those failures we are experiencing (and genuinely about the quality of life we can expect) all we have are a pile of obnoxious ASSES in top government jobs and leadership. Of course, those same ASSES are heavily influenced by powerful and corrupt political machines that rise up every four years at some sort of convention and discuss, "how free we are" based on their own antics. It sickens me ... as yourself to be lied to time and time again only to see the over-all quality of American life eroded away.

But..... you and I are in disagreement about any government in America wantonly carrying out an intentional method of destruction on any innocent civilians or for that matter innocent armed forces ANYWHERE.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   14:17:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: buckeroo (#171)

But..... you and I are in disagreement about any government in America wantonly carrying out an intentional method of destruction on any innocent civilians or for that matter innocent armed forces ANYWHERE.

Disagree all you want but the facts prove you wrong. It gives me no joy to say that the people who run the government, or front for those who actually do run things, have no conscience and no qualms about killing innocent people. But "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   14:28:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: James Deffenbach (#172)

Disagree all you want but the facts prove you wrong. It gives me no joy to say that the people who run the government, or front for those who actually do run things, have no conscience and no qualms about killing innocent people.

You live in either a story book tale or a Hollywood movie; your opinion(s) is not based on fact but some incredulous need to over-glamorize the true dynamics and facts distorting our way of life.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   14:35:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: christine (#135)

killtown.911review.org/ 911smokingguns.html

250+ 9/11 'Smoking Guns' Found in the Mainstream Media

Plans and scenarios aren't indictors of events that actually took place, in many cases because the plans aren't thought out completely enough and also because problems arise during execution, even if the scenarios are attempted.

Better proofs of actual events would be "plan vs. actual" follow up reports noting what parts of the plans were carried out, and what parts of the plans needed to be modified during the actual events.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   14:55:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: AGAviator (#170)

"7th century cave dwellers,"

I love that expression.... it unwittingly ensures the directors have no educational base in modern West schools.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   15:22:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: buckeroo (#173)

You live in either a story book tale or a Hollywood movie; your opinion(s) is not based on fact but some incredulous need to over-glamorize the true dynamics and facts distorting our way of life.

Hate to break it to you but you are the one who lives off somewhere in Never Never Land. I posted facts, facts which you cannot refute. And your child like belief that the government would not do anything to harm innocent people is very naive. Either that or you have had way too much Sterno and are hallucinating.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   15:24:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#176)

I posted facts, facts which you cannot refute. And your child like belief that the government would not do anything to harm innocent people is very naive

Hey Six Percenter.

Which of Americans who died on 911, especially the passengers on the 4 crashed aircraft, didn't actually die in those airplane crashes, and didn't have their remains returned to their families, after exhaustive research using advanced forensic DNA analysis?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   15:30:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: James Deffenbach (#176)

I posted facts, facts which you cannot refute. And your child like belief that the government would not do anything to harm innocent people is very naive.

About two local tragic (Branch Davidian Church in Waco, Tx and Ruby Ridge/Randy Weaver) FAILED incidents by the ATF cowboys to arrest and contain in 1991/1992 given the go ahead by GHBush? How do these antics make you believe the US government is working with all other local governments that later destroyed the WTC and about 3,000 innocent women and children on 9-11-01?

Are you out of your mind?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   15:33:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: AGAviator, James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#177)

Hey genius, explain something to me. Why are some of these so-called "9/11 hijackers" still alive and well?

If THEY didn't do it, then WHO did?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   15:34:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: buckeroo (#178)

The only difference is in degree, not in kind. Randy Weaver's wife and son were innocent (actually so was Randy. He was a white separatist, so what? Is that a crime? The only "crime" they had any evidence against him for was one they set up themselves and that's called entrapment). The men, women and children at Waco were innocent too but that didn't stop the government from murdering them. Hard to believe you would take up for scumbag killers.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   15:44:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: James Deffenbach (#180)

The only difference is in degree, not in kind. Randy Weaver's wife and son were innocent (actually so was Randy. He was a white separatist, so what? Is that a crime? The only "crime" they had any evidence against him for was one they set up themselves and that's called entrapment). The men, women and children at Waco were innocent too but that didn't stop the government from murdering them. Hard to believe you would take up for scumbag killers.

The issues in and around the time of ATF cowboy antics were in 1991/1992. At that time, there was HUGE popular and political demand concerning firearms .... and the ATF punks did their job with the help of the FBI and the super-secret US ARMY Delta Force.

You saw over-zealous ATF punks attempting to increase their bureaucratic budgets within Congress based upon a clown act show for popular review within American circles.

And the Brady Act came into being with another ignorant political ASS, William Clinton.

But this has nothing to do with wanton government destruction in 2001 based on the 9/11 tragedy. You are quickly becoming a "KOO-KOO for Coca Puffs candidate" if you keep this silly equation up.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   15:55:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: buckeroo (#181)

Why is the government covering up what happened on 9/11 if it isn't complicit?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   16:13:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: buckeroo (#181)

Did mel_living have Jackalope Breeder murdered?

2big2fail  posted on  2010-07-10   16:24:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: buckeroo (#181)

You are quickly becoming a "KOO-KOO for Coca Puffs candidate" if you keep this silly equation up.

You take up for murdering scumbags and I'm the crazy one? Only in buckeroo world.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   16:24:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: Eric Stratton (#132)

I suspect the video may be fake or something is not right about it. Like the mysterious "and then the towers fell due to structural failure" guy who appeared on the spot on tv on 9/11. Or the fake Israeli flotilla videos. Etc., etc.

We can't put anything past these people.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-10   16:29:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, critter, (#129)

ag, you're the one pushing the conspiracy theory by repeating the lies of baalzabush and company and claiming them to be the truth, then you get all pissy because thinking rational people mock you and your ilk for being imbeciles.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   16:32:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: FormerLurker (#182)

Why is the government covering up what happened on 9/11 if it isn't complicit?

First, the government has an average IQ of less than 85; it is an "equal opportunity" employer. The government goes by rigid processes and procedures for each and every qualified member with few exceptions; even those same exceptions are tempered by tradition and history based upon need; in fact, that is why you see 0bama's birth certificate and other publick records.

Second, the government ALWAYS acts after the fact. You have never seen any government body ANYWHERE on the planet acting with actual capability and capacity of purpose unless some diabolical charmer was looking for a little power. True, it happens from time to time; Cambodia (PolPot) and popular book/movie, The Killing Fields represents how an entire nation can ensure their own destruction.

Third, America has no capability (at the moment) for a tyrant to rise up and play the fiddle for cut-throats and slayers to wantonly kill innocent people.

Fourth, and to get at the "meat of your question" .... there is no cover-up; all you see are legal/expert opinions by idiots having an IQ of 85 that could care less about America or you or me .... other than you paying your trumped-upped tax bill to support their ASS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   16:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: AGAviator (#155)

a NYPD fireman

What is an NYPD fireman?

A New York Police Department fireman?

No such animal, Kemo Sabe.

2big2fail  posted on  2010-07-10   16:35:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: buckeroo (#187) (Edited)

that is why you see 0bama's birth certificate and other publick records.

None of us have ever seen Obama's REAL birth certificate. Just one like Sun Yat Sen had. And he was born in China.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   16:44:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: noone222 (#164)

ag must have been ass raped by a group of them there extra-tetesticles. that'll teach him to fish from docks on the mississippi after dark.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   16:46:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: buckeroo (#187)

First, the government has an average IQ of less than 85

Bullshit. They like to pretend they're dumb, it gives them cover for all the things they do which they don't want people asking too many questions about.

As far as the 9/11 coverup, it is going on to this day, and began minutes after, if not in fact during the actual attacks themselves.

They announced the names of the "hijackers" the same day, and conveniently located the "hijackers" car in the parking garage in Boston within minutes after the attacks.

They didn't even TRY to determine if the buildings were brought down with explosives, even though almost EVERY terrorist attack HAS involved explosives.

Any mention of possible explosives within the towers was dubbed a "conspiracy theory" within days after the attacks, with no serious investigation of the crime scene at all, just a whitewash cursory analysis using "computer models".

The victims' families had to pressure the Bush administration to even conduct an investigation, leading to the 9/11 Commission, whose very members called it a whitewash and a farce.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   16:47:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: FormerLurker (#191)

First, the government has an average IQ of less than 85
Bullshit. They like to pretend they're dumb, it gives them cover for all the things they do which they don't want people asking too many questions about.

and it gives guys like bucky the belief they have a shot at one of those GS-9 slots.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   16:59:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: 2big2fail (#183)

Did mel_living have Jackalope Breeder murdered?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   17:00:09 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: wudidiz (#185)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-10   17:18:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: AGAviator (#160)

Perfect example of the conspiracist mindset. Calls Buzz such words to his face, and he doesn't expect to get punched?

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-10   17:27:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach (#181)

But this has nothing to do with wanton government destruction in 2001 based on the 9/11 tragedy. You are quickly becoming a "KOO-KOO for Coca Puffs candidate" if you keep this silly equation up.

Yeah, get with the program, James, quit thinking about things Bucky doesn't want you thinking. It's for the good of America. You don't hate America, do you?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   17:33:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Dakmar (#196)

You don't hate America, do you?

No, I sure don't. I love America and that is why I hate to see it being ruined.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   17:38:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: Eric Stratton, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, IRTorqued, Flintlock, X-15, FormerLurker, all (#132)

Why would the firefighter say, "See the way it's leaning over like that? It's definitely gonna fall. There's no way to stop it..."

And why wouldn't just that side of the building fall instead of the whole thing which was clearly, oh most clearly, fallen like a planned demolition?

Even the "official" rejects that did the charade 9/11 commission report have no answers.

Either way, it's comical how the neocons don't trust the government, but when it comes to "national security" they trust them hook, line, and sinker to the extent that they're afraid of even looking at the actual facts.

Yeah, nothing troubling there with their behavior. LOL

It's after thoughts like that that I think to myself how 90% of this nation deserves what's coming whether it be serfdom, apocalyptic destruction, or whatever.

Exactly, if building 7 were a natural collapse, a catastrophic failure, you would see it slump and tumble over not neatly pancake into its own footprint at a near freefall rate*. What was observed carries all of the signatures of a controlled demolition. The collapse was initiated simultaneously at all 4 corners 360 degrees (which only happens in a controlled demolition) and if you slow the film down and watch the collapse in slow motion you'll notice that two cracks form very early in the collapse - those are located at the left and right perimeter of the central core of the building which, like the twin towers, was an immensely strong structure of heavy steel beams and cross bracing and, based on the film, that is what collapses first the central load bearing structure for the building and then it collapses symmetrically inward with all 4 corners collapsing in the same instant of time - just as one would expect in a controlled demolition.

Another thing the shills avoid like the plague is the fact that the central core of the building had been beefed up and hardened so that Bldg. 7 (23rd Floor) could serve as the city's central command center in a catastrophe such as a hurricane or earthquake. So, the structure was actually stronger than the very strong structure that was originally built. Yet at 11 O'clock in the morning Rudy Ghouliani already knew it was going to collapse and the command center was evacuated. He was actually captured in news footage saying so. Rudy has been very disingenuous in that at one of his news conferences about the day of 911 he stated that they had evacuated by 11 A.M. or so because of the risk of the building collapsing, and yet no one at that time was talking about collapse. That was barely 2 hours after the initial event. When confronted later on he tried saying that he did not say that but when confronted with a recording of what he said he didn't have much to say other than to sputter and run.





*Freefall from the top of the building was 6 seconds, and the structure itself collapsed in about 6.5 to 6.6 seconds. There were a few precursor signs a few seconds earlier looking down from the top, but the actual pancake collapse went in 6.6 seconds - less than a seconds difference between freefall and what was observed and recorded. The only way that could conceivably happen is if the central core structure was removed, and the only way to remove it fast enough to allow for all of the characteristics of the collapse is explosive demolition. The key signatures of which were:

1. The collapse initiated simultaneously symmetrically in 360 degrees. At time zero, immediately prior to the initiation of collapse, telltale "squibs" of dust/smoke can be seen erupting at the levels coincident with the floors of the building. These are most reasonably explained as the demolition charges going off to turn the structural support to nothing.
2. The simultaneous cracking of the facade two equidistant locations corresponding to interior location of the building's steel beam core.
3. A neat, tidy, symmetrical collapse into its own footprint with NO outward slumping i.e., the building imploded.
4. The complete collapse of the reinforced steel girder core of the building (which was the main load bearing structure).
5. The collapse was complete in barely a half second more than pure freefall with no resistance, other than friction, and the only way that can occur is to remove the heavily reinforced steel girder core, and the only way to do that fast enough to account for the other signatures is explosive demolition.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   17:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: buckeroo, 2big2fail (#193)

Did mel_living have Jackalope Breeder murdered?

Why do you believe that to be so? And here I'm serious; I would like to know what reasoning and evidence you base that assessment on. I know the government, particularly CIA, almost routinely whacks people who are "inconvenient" (Witness the murder of Deborah Jean Palfrey - the "D.C. Madam").

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   17:48:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, aggravator, Turtle (#198)

I think buck, aggravator and the turtle need to try their "gubmint wouldn't do such a thing" out on someone else, some other site. Maybe they can find a site where only mental patients with IQ's of 38 or lower are allowed to play with the computers. They might be able to make them believe such twaddle.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   17:49:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: James Deffenbach (#200)

Maybe they can find a site where only mental patients with IQ's of 38 or lower are allowed to play with the computers. They might be able to make them believe such twaddle.

True. And it may be that they are aware of that and have another motive - like diverting us from discussing the Oilcano in the Gulf and the Epic Fail of the Oh'bummer maladministration to deal with it. And in fact the apparent intentionally not dealing with it, along with the shut down of air monitoring in the Gulf, the blocking out of reporters or overflights of the area, etc., ...

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   17:54:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: Original_Intent (#198)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-10   18:02:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: Original_Intent (#201)

True. And it may be that they are aware of that and have another motive - like diverting us from discussing the Oilcano in the Gulf and the Epic Fail of the Oh'bummer maladministration to deal with it. And in fact the apparent intentionally not dealing with it, along with the shut down of air monitoring in the Gulf, the blocking out of reporters or overflights of the area, etc., ...

Yes, that's a possibility too.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   18:06:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: Original_Intent, Turtle (#199)

Why do you believe that to be so? And here I'm serious; I would like to know what reasoning and evidence you base that assessment on.

At the top of the thread, Turtle introduced the concept of HATE. Mel hated Jackalope as he time and time and time again kicked her teeth in for being a fucked-upped pundit.

She lived not too far away, either.... and probably had one of her illegal friends do her dirty deed. And she tried to have me murdered as well.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   18:12:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: buckeroo (#204)

I don't think Mel has that kind of pull.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-10   18:20:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: farmfriend (#205) (Edited)

You don't [know] what goes on in the mind of a deranged animal; mel_giving was a devious, nasty bitch fucking around anyone that confronted her. I hope she rots in HELL.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   18:23:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: James Deffenbach (#203)

True. And it may be that they are aware of that and have another motive - like diverting us from discussing the Oilcano in the Gulf and the Epic Fail of the Oh'bummer maladministration to deal with it. And in fact the apparent intentionally not dealing with it, along with the shut down of air monitoring in the Gulf, the blocking out of reporters or overflights of the area, etc., ...

Yes, that's a possibility too.

Another thought that occurred to me while I was looking at your reply which ties the two together is the following: If they do not continue to prop up the false "Official Conspiracy Theory™" then it leads people toward considering that the Oilcano in the Gulf was not quite as accidental as is maintained. And of course once one is accepted the other possibility becomes more real in that person's mind. In other words it still all ties back to 911. They MUST continue to support the lie of "19ArabsWithBoxCuttersWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree", because to do otherwise leads to everything else beginning to unravel. After that comes "Peasants with Pitchforks".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: 2big2fail (#188)

a NYPD fireman What is an NYPD fireman?

NYPFD

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   18:30:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: buckeroo, farmfriend (#204)

Why do you believe that to be so? And here I'm serious; I would like to know what reasoning and evidence you base that assessment on.

At the top of the thread, Turtle introduced the concept of HATE. Mel hated Jackalope as he time and time and time again kicked her teeth in for being a fucked-upped pundit.

She lived not too far away, either.... and probably had one of her illegal friends do her dirty deed. And she tried to have me murdered as well.

In other words it is based on your dislike and distrust of her, but no hard evidence. That of course raises the possibility that it wasn't her. So, without something firm I would not fix on her as the only possibility as that blinds you to looking for other clues or evidence.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:32:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: Original_Intent (#207)

You would think that it would only take one event like 9/11 to wake folks up but maybe one is not enough. I really do worry though about the long-term effects of this thing in the Gulf. And I wonder if BP hates us cuz we beze free too.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   18:33:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: AGAviator (#208)

It's my understanding that NYC's fire department is officially FDNY, which I thought a bit odd, but why didn't you know that?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   18:34:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: AGAviator, 2big2fail (#208)

a NYPD fireman What is an NYPD fireman?

NYPFD

The correct appellation is "FDNY" or Fire Department New York.

I can see you've studied the issues closely. /sarcasm

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:35:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: Dakmar (#211)

Bastard! You beat me. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: Original_Intent (#212)

FDNY

Sheesh, even I caught that and I'm drunk most of the time.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   18:37:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: James Deffenbach (#210)

And I wonder if BP hates us cuz we beze free too.

No doubt. We're the "little people" and we have no business putting on "airs" like we're free or some such nonsense.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:37:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: Original_Intent (#207)

If they do not continue to prop up the false "Official Conspiracy Theory™" then it leads people toward considering that the Oilcano in the Gulf was not quite as accidental as is maintained.

ROTFL..... the conjecture, the spontaneity, the "off-the-top" .... it just doesn't get better than this. No wonder I don't watch television anymore.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   18:37:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: Dakmar (#214)

Sheesh, even I caught that and I'm drunk most of the time.

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   18:38:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: Original_Intent (#213)

Bastard! You beat me.

I'm a wizard with low-hanging fruit.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   18:38:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: IRTorqued (#190)

ag must have been ass raped by a group of them there extra-tetesticles. that'll teach him to fish from docks on the mississippi after dark.

No little faggot bitch, it's you Six Percenters that are gonna get ass raped when your incessant blathering makes people sick and tired of you all.

Just like 72-year old astrounaut Buzz Aldrin cold cocking a 36-year old Six Percenter twit who walked up to him demanding he swear on a Bible he walked on the moon, then ignored Aldrin's telling him to get out of his face, then called Aldrin a coward, liar, and thief.

Better make sure your k00kblather stays on the Internet, that's all I've got to say.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   18:41:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: Original_Intent (#209)

.. but no hard evidence.

Go stick it where the Sun don't shine. The very night that fucking bitch placed my personal data on the Internet, my home was shot at, not once but several times. She is a harbinger of animosity and despair; a little Hitler.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   18:42:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: buckeroo (#216)

If they do not continue to prop up the false "Official Conspiracy Theory™" then it leads people toward considering that the Oilcano in the Gulf was not quite as accidental as is maintained.

ROTFL..... the conjecture, the spontaneity, the "off-the-top" .... it just doesn't get better than this. No wonder I don't watch television anymore.

Of course it's conjecture. It is simply one attempt to set the facts into a framework that makes sense. It is simply one possible hypothesis and I did not, and do not, label it as a dead certainty. However, we are dealing with people who are NEVER on the up an up and so it requires a little old fashioned skull sweat to try and figure out what they are really up to.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:43:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: Original_Intent (#221)

It is simply one attempt to set the facts into a framework that makes sense.

What facts?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   18:45:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: buckeroo (#220)

.. but no hard evidence.

Go stick it where the Sun don't shine. The very night that fucking bitch placed my personal data on the Internet, my home was shot at, not once but several times. She is a harbinger of animosity and despair; a little Hitler.

Testy, testy. I got it. I'm not saying she is a saint or that you are not right in your conclusion. I simply pointed out that there was no hard evidence beyond your dislike and distrust. I have no idea as to what has gone betwixt you. I simply made a logical statement based on the available, at that time, evidence.

Oh, and I'm not that kind of boy.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:46:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: Turtle (#0)

GO AWAY JEW TURTLE!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-10   18:47:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: James Deffenbach (#200)

I think buck, aggravator and the turtle need to try their "gubmint wouldn't do such a thing" out on someone else, some other site. Maybe they can find a site where only mental patients with IQ's of 38 or lower are allowed to play with the computers. They might be able to make them believe such twaddle.

wouldn't that place be elpee for the most part?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   18:49:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: FormerLurker (#179)

Hey genius, explain something to me. Why are some of these so-called "9/11 hijackers" still alive and well?

If THEY didn't do it, then WHO did?

Never heard of false ID's by people planning to do a criminal acts, stolen passports, similar Arabic names analogous to "John Smith" which thousands of people have, and confusion within bureaucracies?

911 Myths: Hijackers Still Alive

The "still alive" claim has a powerful list of supporters, then, and so you might expect it to be supported with a substantial amount of evidence. But then you'd be disappointed, because there is nothing of the kind. In fact the claim is only sustainable because not a single one of its proponents actually tells you all the details you need to know.

2002: After Investigation, Saudi Arabia Acknowledges 15 of 19 Hijackers were Saudi Citizens

Saudi Arabia acknowledged for the first time that 15 of the Sept. 11 suicide hijackers were Saudi citizens...

Previously, Saudi Arabia had said the citizenship of 15 of the 19 hijackers was in doubt despite U.S. insistence they were Saudis. But Interior Minister Prince Nayef told The Associated Press that Saudi leaders were shocked to learn 15 of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

"The names that we got confirmed that," Nayef said in an interview. "Their families have been notified."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   18:50:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: Original_Intent, Turtle (#221)

Of course it's conjecture. It is simply one attempt to set the facts into a framework that makes sense. It is simply one possible hypothesis and I did not, and do not, label it as a dead certainty.

Or framed another way, it's been proven that the 'official' 911 narrative contains contradictory information. It cannot possibly be entirely true, therefor the only reasonable course would be to investigate those discrepancies.

In other words, Bob, why are your panties in such a bunch over this?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   18:53:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: Original_Intent (#223)

I have no idea as to what has gone betwixt you.

most folks know that at the time Jackalope and I (besides hundreds of other American loving patriots) went to the AZ border... as a result of Chris Simcox's many pleas through a number of networks.

That bitch sat on her ass and scoffed at us. She drove a stake in the heart of the Minuteman movement as she is some sort of board member in the "Americanborderpatrol." That jealous bitch, fucked a lot of people up with her lies and slanderous BS besides scurrilousness, clandestine activities.

BTW, why are you so interested? Don't you have a garden to attend to?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   18:54:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: buckeroo (#147)

But, we lack a need to modify our dependence on oil just yet. We have BP and deepwater technologies to thank for that.

Thoughtful post, IMHO.

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-10   18:55:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: buckeroo (#222)

You are privy to the public record as much as I.

However,

It took his illustrious Obamessiahship 3 weeks to even notice the Oilcano beyond sending SWAT teams out to all the rigs in the area (I don't know what to make of that other than it is a counterintuitive response to an oil disaster).

The Coast Guard has been Bee Pee's "boy".

Oh'bummer turned down at least 13 separate offers of aid.

We have been lied to repeatedly.

All Air Monitoring in the Gulf has ceased public reporting.

The EPA is doing nothing about the use of Corexit even though it is 4 to 5 times more toxic than the oil. Last I heard they had used somewhere in the vicinity of 1.5 million gallons of the shit in order to keep the majority of the oil erupting out of BP's hole from hitting the ocean surface.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   18:56:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#231. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#206)

mel_giving was a devious, nasty bitch fucking around anyone that confronted her.

I'm not going to dispute that but to have someone killed takes a pull she doesn't possess. She is not the mob, she is not someone with money or power. She is not a gang member. It is just not that easy to have someone killed.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-10   18:58:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: Original_Intent (#230)

The EPA is doing nothing about the use of Corexit even though it is 4 to 5 times more toxic than the oil. Last I heard they had used somewhere in the vicinity of 1.5 million gallons of the shit in order to keep the majority of the oil erupting out of BP's hole from hitting the ocean surface.

They wouldn't let the states build sand berms to protect the marshes but they'll let them use this toxic stuff. Sure puts the lie to the idea that they are protecting the environment.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-10   18:59:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: Dakmar (#211)

the devil in the details, ag wanted to be the smoking hot dog turd but alas all he is is a cold kernel of corn in said turd.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   18:59:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#212) (Edited)

The correct appellation is "FDNY" or Fire Department New York.

I can see you've studied the issues closely. /sarcasm

I can see you've been reduced to nit picking and pettifogging over spelling minutiae in place of issues, Six Percenter.

I show an explicit video of a New York City fireman saying the WTC7 building is going down, and "There's no way to stop it...the structural integrity is not there," several hours before the building actually collapsed. Your reply is "You didn't post the name of the New York City Fire Department the way I want to see it, and you have a one letter typo"

Now if you could only leverage that into raising your acceptance of "Controlled demolitions by the USG brought down by the WTC" population to maybe 10%, you'd be making some progress.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

You've been pwned by the New York City fireman video I posted explicitly prediciting collapse from serious damage and uncontrolled fires hours before WTC 7 actually went down.

Now instead of being a man and acknowledging you've been wrong, you go into denial and spelling nit pick mode.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:02:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: buckeroo (#228)

BTW, why are you so interested? Don't you have a garden to attend to?

I'm chronically curious. I've heard you talk about it before and remember you having words with melissa when she was posting here. As for the garden it is doing wonderful. Despite a cool wet spring I should be getting my first Cherry Tomatoes withing the next couple of weeks. The bigger ones will start following that along with the summer squash and then the melons. I'm harvesting Snap Peas and Broccoli now.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:02:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: AGAviator (#219)

cry with your straw-man argument, it is all you will ever have.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   19:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#237. To: Dakmar (#211)

It's my understanding that NYC's fire department is officially FDNY, which I thought a bit odd, but why didn't you know that?

What about the video itself, spelling pettifogger?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:03:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#238. To: tom007 (#229)

Thanks Tom. Always good to see you.

American government (irrespective of level) may have created all sorts of laws and taxes restraining energy mining in America but the shift for energy need went to where the oil was and is.

As a nation, we did not address the fundamental issues. And as a result we have parlayed the roles and responsibilities for our needs into the US military guarding OUR oil under their sand.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   19:06:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: AGAviator (#234)

I can see you've been reduced to nit picking and pettifogging over spelling minutiae in place of issues, Six Percenter.

Not even close. I am reduced to pointing out that you are an idiot who has hissy fits over things he obviously hasn't spent much time studying.

As for your childish rant to cover up your ignorance:

Do have a nice day.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:06:28 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: IRTorqued (#225)

wouldn't that place be elpee for the most part?

I was thinking more like DU but it could apply equally to some faction of posters at LP and most certainly to FR.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   19:11:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#241. To: IRTorqued, turtle, buckeroo (#236)

cry with your straw-man argument

Me cry, Six Percenter?

Who are the pinheads who live in a population that has many time more believers UFO abductions and Elvis sightings than in, "USG controlled demolitions brought down the WTC Buildings," and who have failed in nearly nine years to elect a single public official stating the 911 CT's are true? Or get a single Obama BC lawsuit to proceed to discovery and interrogatories, let alone trial.

Or say "They're paying aggravator to post to us six percent losers?" No pinheads. I post to you because you attack me for trying to show you the truth. And for the lot of you being a circus freakshow taking attention from serious issues.

The only ***crying*** you're ever gonna see from me is laughing so hard that tears come to my eyes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:11:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#242. To: Dakmar, Turdle, all (#227)

Of course it's conjecture. It is simply one attempt to set the facts into a framework that makes sense. It is simply one possible hypothesis and I did not, and do not, label it as a dead certainty.

Or framed another way, it's been proven that the 'official' 911 narrative contains contradictory information. It cannot possibly be entirely true, therefor the only reasonable course would be to investigate those discrepancies.

In other words, Bob, why are your panties in such a bunch over this?

Excellent points, but alas the Kool-Aid Drinkers are incapable of admitting even the most egregious and obvious errors and misrepresentations. And every time the "Offcial Conspiracy Theory™" changes it is like Orwell time: "Oceana has always been at war with Eurasia". So, whenever the story is changed to paper over one of the flaws it becomes retroactively "the way its always been".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:11:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#243. To: buckeroo (#204)

She lived not too far away, either.... and probably had one of her illegal friends do her dirty deed. And she tried to have me murdered as well.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo posted on 2010-07-10 18:12:12 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

What..........???????

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-10   19:12:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#244. To: Original_Intent (#230)

The EPA is doing nothing about the use of Corexit even though it is 4 to 5 times more toxic than the oil. Last I heard they had used somewhere in the vicinity of 1.5 million gallons of the shit in order to keep the majority of the oil erupting out of BP's hole from hitting the ocean surface.

Which is exactly where the $#it needs to go so that the skimmer boats can get it! And breaking it up into smaller and smaller blobs, what a brain dead idea that is.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   19:13:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: farmfriend (#232)

They wouldn't let the states build sand berms to protect the marshes but they'll let them use this toxic stuff. Sure puts the lie to the idea that they are protecting the environment.

That's what Crap-n-Raid is for - to save the planet (or what's left of it when Bee Pee is done).

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:14:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: James Deffenbach (#244)

The EPA is doing nothing about the use of Corexit even though it is 4 to 5 times more toxic than the oil. Last I heard they had used somewhere in the vicinity of 1.5 million gallons of the shit in order to keep the majority of the oil erupting out of BP's hole from hitting the ocean surface.

Which is exactly where the $#it needs to go so that the skimmer boats can get it! And breaking it up into smaller and smaller blobs, what a brain dead idea that is.

It's called controlling the public, and destroying the environment. Purely intentional I do believe.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:15:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: Original_Intent (#230)

eyond sending SWAT teams

Soil and Water Assesment Teams (or Tools, I have heard both).

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-10   19:16:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: AGAviator (#241)

all you've done is cry like a little school girl, you've got nothing.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   19:16:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#249. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#239)

I am reduced to pointing out that you are an idiot who has hissy fits over things he obviously hasn't spent much time studying.

Is my explicit video of an NY City Fireman totally sending your k00k theories of controlled demolition of WTC 7 down the toilet a hissy fit, pettifogger?

Just how much time do I need to ***study*** a fireman on scene saying "The building's going down. There's no way to stop it. The structural integrity is not there."

Anything about those words you can't understand as quickly as they're spoken, contrary to the garbage dump of k00kclaims you've littered the entire internet with?

The video message is where you get pwned. Not what I call a NY City fireman.

BWAHAHAHAHA.

Pettifogging loser.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:16:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#250. To: IRTorqued (#248) (Edited)

The only ***crying*** you're ever gonna see from me is laughing so hard at you Six Percenters that tears come to my eyes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:17:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#251. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#228)

She drove a stake in the heart of the Minuteman movement

I think Simcox did that himself with his lies. He showed himself to be nothing other than a Jackson style con artist.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-10   19:17:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: farmfriend (#231)

She is not a gang member. It is just not that easy to have someone killed.

And you came to possess this specialized knowledge how?

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-10   19:18:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#253. To: Original_Intent (#245)

That's what Crap-n-Raid is for - to save the planet

You do have a way with words.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-10   19:18:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#254. To: AGAviator (#250)

your retort much like yourself is pointless


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   19:21:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#255. To: AGAviator (#237)

What about the video itself, spelling pettifogger?

You'll have to be a little more specific, and much less precocious.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   19:21:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: tom007 (#252)

And you came to possess this specialized knowledge how?

I'm relying on common sense. Why? Do you have evidence to dispute it?


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-10   19:22:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#257. To: IRTorqued (#254)

your retort much like yourself is pointless

You seem to have a habit of replying to posts you deem ***pointles*** doncha, Six Percenter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:23:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#258. To: AGAviator (#249)

Is my explicit video of an NY City Fireman totally sending your k00k theories of controlled demolition of WTC 7 down the toilet a hissy fit, pettifogger?

You mean any of THESE NY City Firemen?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   19:24:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#259. To: Dakmar (#255) (Edited)

pettifogger

2big2fail  posted on  2010-07-10   19:24:31 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#260. To: buckeroo (#204)

Mel hated Jackalope as he time and time and time again kicked her teeth in for being a fucked-upped pundit.

Didn't Jackelope die of a major stroke or some massive cancer attack?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:25:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#261. To: buckeroo (#238)

As a nation, we did not address the fundamental issues.

I am pretty sure that the actual policy was something along the line of, - let's use their oil while it's cheap, and now we have a entire society that has to use petro everyday. Or they will soon panic and starve. And we have learned in Tehran in 1954 that's it's easy to manipulate the ME tribes into economic colonization.

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-10   19:26:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#262. To: 2big2fail (#259)

Pettifogger

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:27:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#263. To: AGAviator (#241)

Me cry, Six Percenter?

More like 33 percenter, idiot.

From Third of Americans suspect 9- 11 government conspiracy...

More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   19:30:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#264. To: 2big2fail (#259)

You think I'm a lawyer dog? Are you insane? :)

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   19:30:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#265. To: FormerLurker (#258) (Edited)

You mean any of THESE NY City Firemen?

Try to stay on point, Six Percenter.

Your k00k theory is about controlled demolitions bringing a building down, not "secondary explosions" caused by uncontrolled fires fed by tens of thousands of diesel fuel burning through an office building for several hours.

And Kevin Ryan was a low level employee fired for incompetence, while Van Romero of New Mexico retracted his spur-of-the-moment comments made on 911 almost as quickly as he made them - after he had time to see more evidence.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:30:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#266. To: farmfriend (#256)

Why? Do you have evidence to dispute it?

Who ME!!!??

No evidence here, Sugar.

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-10   19:30:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#267. To: buckeroo (#228)

Jackalope and I (besides hundreds of other American loving patriots) went to the AZ border... as a result of Chris Simcox's many pleas through a number of networks.

That bitch sat on her ass and scoffed at us. She drove a stake in the heart of the Minuteman movement as she is some sort of board member in the "Americanborderpatrol." That jealous bitch, fucked a lot of people up with her lies and slanderous BS besides scurrilousness, clandestine activities.

I'm more of a Gilchrist fan, but I was there too.

"F'd a lot of people up"? IMO you overestimate her abilities. She's a small time loser, of little importance. She's an ultra-stupid liberal. Ignoramus Maximus. She was pushing for Juan McAmnesty, because Glen Spencer had some top secret plan which she couldn't reveal. But she expected folks to just take her word for it, that the plan was brilliant, and vote McStain.

re-TARD!


My joy over McCain's defeat, is offset by my disappointment over hObama's victory.

hondo68  posted on  2010-07-10   19:32:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#268. To: FormerLurker (#263)

From Third of Americans suspect 9- 11 government conspiracy...

No loser, your inflated numbers include a large percentage believing that the USG did not participate in the attacks, but also did not do enough to prevent or stop them.

The core issue remains "Did the USG itself direct and control the demolition of the WTC through controlled demolitions?" and to that an overwhelming majority says "No."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:35:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#269. To: AGAviator (#249)

Oh, my dear child you cannot bait me into anything. At best I find your transparent tactics mildly amusing - much as one would find the village idiot's antics mildly amusing.

9/11 Firefighters: Bombs and Explosions in the WTC

Fire Fighters For 9-11 Truth " Controlled Demolition

Professional Demolition of World Trade Center Building 7

YouTube - WTC 7 Explosion on Audio (heard by firemen)

Emergency Official Witnessed Dead Bodies In WTC 7

9/11 First Responder Heard WTC 7 Demolition Countdown

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:36:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#270. To: FormerLurker (#265)

uncontrolled fires fed by tens of thousands of diesel fuel burning through an office building for several hours.

see what you've done you got ag's skivies in such a wad he can't even give a unit of issue. now he's going to start crying all over again about people nitpicking his idiotic factaphobia.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   19:37:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#271. To: Dakmar, AGAviator, a.k.a. Tailspin Charley (#255)

What about the video itself, spelling pettifogger?

You'll have to be a little more specific, and much less precocious.

Are you sure you didn't mean "pernicious"?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:38:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#272. To: AGAviator (#268)

The core issue remains "Did the USG itself direct and control the demolition of the WTC through controlled demolitions?" and to that an overwhelming majority says "No."

It does? Shit, I thought we were discussing whether or not JFK's driver would have been able to swerve out of the assassin's path if only a set of light weight racing mags had been installed on the presidential limo.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   19:38:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#273. To: farmfriend (#251)

He [Chris Simcox] showed himself to be nothing other than a Jackson style con artist.

Stop it. This stuff about Chris Simcox is silly especially on this thread. He lead the charge in an otherwise vacant world addressing a serious publick issue that continues to this day.

He may be going through a divorce issue. That has nothing to to do with the initiative that I am talking about.

At a later time, I shall provide you with more details... the nitty gritty as it were.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   19:40:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#274. To: AGAviator, ALL (#265) (Edited)

Your k00k theory is about controlled demolitions bringing a building down, not "secondary explosions" caused by uncontrolled fires fed by tens of thousands of diesel fuel burning through an office building for several hours.

Hey cheeseball, I used to know another poster who loved to toss the word KOOK around. His name was BeAChooser. Are you him?

BTW you brain-damaged moron, even the NIST and FEMA reports indicate that not only did the majority of the fuel burn up OUTSIDE of the towers when the jets impacted, but that the fuel only burned for several minutes in each tower.

The fires that burned were regular OFFICE FIRES, consisting of furniture, paper, and office equipment.

Besides, the South Tower collapsed at 9:59, and was struck at 9:03, so the fires in that building only burned for 56 minutes, not even an hour, far short of the "several hours" you toss around as if it were fact.

The North Tower collapsed at 10:28, after being struck at 8:46. It burned for 102 minutes, still short of the "several hours" you claim.

You are grasping at straws here to paint this as something other than what it was. I wonder why that is...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   19:40:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#275. To: IRTorqued (#270)

see what you've done you got ag's skivies in such a wad he can't even give a unit of issue. now he's going to start crying all over again about people nitpicking his idiotic factaphobia.

Looks like he's resorted to making things up as he goes.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   19:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#276. To: Original_Intent (#271) (Edited)

Are you sure you didn't mean "pernicious"?

and whatever rhymes with eloquent... :)

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   19:42:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#277. To: Original_Intent aka Original_Indent, turtle, buckeroo (#271)

You'll have to be a little more specific, and much less precocious.

Are you sure you didn't mean "pernicious"?

Ah yes, here comes Original_Indent Tactic #2.

Sprinkle some 50 cent words to try to show you're "erudite" instead of "Keep It Simple Stupid."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:42:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#278. To: AGAviator (#268)

No loser, your inflated numbers include a large percentage believing that the USG did not participate in the attacks, but also did not do enough to prevent or stop them.

Go argue with Ohio University, they're the ones that did the survey. BTW, who performed YOUR survey, yourself?

Did you ask the single moms in your GED class what they thought of 9/11?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   19:43:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#279. To: farmfriend (#253)

That's what Crap-n-Raid is for - to save the planet

You do have a way with words.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:43:56 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#280. To: AGAviator (#277)

You'll have to be a little more specific, and much less precocious.

Are you sure you didn't mean "pernicious"?

Ah yes, here comes Original_Indent Tactic #2.

Sprinkle some 50 cent words to try to show you're "erudite" instead of "Keep It Simple Stupid."

I'm not writing for the stupid.

So, I guess that leaves you out.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:45:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#281. To: Original_Intent (#269)

Unfortunately for you the discussion is supposed to be about controlled demolitions explosions immediately bringing the buildings down.

Not about secondary blasts fed by uncontrolled fires, or explosion-like sounds caused by load shiftings or major structural failures.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:46:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#282. To: Dakmar (#276)

Are you sure you didn't mean "pernicious"?

and whatever rhymes with eloquent... :)

Malignant? Photobucket

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:47:03 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#283. To: Original_Intent (#280)

I'm not writing for the stupid.

So, I guess that leaves you out.

Yes, Indent, I suppose that's why you addressed the post to me.

ROTFLAMO

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:47:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#284. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#277)

Ah yes, here comes Original_Indent Tactic #2.

Sprinkle some 50 cent words to try to show you're "erudite" instead of "Keep It Simple Stupid."

This from the goober that has used "pettifoggery" twice thrice on the same thread.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   19:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#285. To: AGAviator, all (#281)

Unfortunately for you the discussion is supposed to be about controlled demolitions explosions immediately bringing the buildings down.

Not about secondary blasts fed by uncontrolled fires, or explosion-like sounds caused by load shiftings or major structural failures.

Translation: He didn't read the references. Facts make his head hurt.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:48:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#286. To: FormerLurker (#274)

Besides, the South Tower collapsed at 9:59, and was struck at 9:03, so the fires in that building only burned for 56 minutes, not even an hour, far short of the "several hours" you toss around as if it were fact.

The North Tower collapsed at 10:28, after being struck at 8:46. It burned for 102 minutes, still short of the "several hours" you claim.

Which makes your claims of the crashes not playing any factor in the subsequent collapses even less supportable.

Nice job of rebutting yourself.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:49:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#287. To: AGAviator (#265)

And Kevin Ryan was a low level employee fired for incompetence

So according to you, all of those deceased NYFD firemen on those tapes were low level incompetent idiots, eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   19:49:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#288. To: AGAviator (#286)

Which makes your claims of the crashes not playing any factor in the subsequent collapses even less supportable.

Nice job of rebutting yourself.

I just proved you were full of shit, yet you claim I "rebutted myself"?

Are you on drugs?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   19:50:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#289. To: FormerLurker (#288)

I just proved you were full of shit, yet you claim I "rebutted myself"?

Are you on drugs?

You're now stating that the crashes and subsequent building collapses happened within under a couple hours but are totally unrelated.

What are you on, Six Percenter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   19:51:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#290. To: Dakmar, AGAviator, a.k.a. Tailspin Charley (#284)

Ah yes, here comes Original_Indent Tactic #2.

Sprinkle some 50 cent words to try to show you're "erudite" instead of "Keep It Simple Stupid."

This from the goober that has used "pettifoggery" twice thrice on the same thread.

Oh, that's OK he makes up for it by not knowing what it means.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:52:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#291. To: FormerLurker (#288)

AGAviator

Pointless to talk to that asshat !

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces

noone222  posted on  2010-07-10   19:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#292. To: FormerLurker (#288)

Which makes your claims of the crashes not playing any factor in the subsequent collapses even less supportable.

Nice job of rebutting yourself.

I just proved you were full of shit, yet you claim I "rebutted myself"?

Are you on drugs?

Nah, CENTCOM tests their posters for drugs all the time.

To Aggravator: RIGHT PRIVATE!?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:53:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#293. To: noone222 (#291)

Pointless to talk to that asshat !

I think their heads explode after a few months.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   19:54:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#294. To: AGAviator (#283)

I'm not writing for the stupid.

So, I guess that leaves you out.

Yes, Indent, I suppose that's why you addressed the post to me.

Noblesse Oblige.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   19:55:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#295. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#277)

Ah yes, here comes Original_Indent Tactic #2.

Sprinkle some 50 cent words to try to show you're "erudite" instead of "Keep It Simple Stupid."

O_I is great fun and fan fare, isn't he?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   19:57:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#296. To: AGAviator (#289) (Edited)

You're now stating that the crashes and subsequent building collapses happened within under a couple hours but are totally unrelated.

You stated that there were "uncontrolled fires fed by tens of thousands of diesel fuel burning through an office building for several hours"

  1. You lied by claiming there were "tens of thousands of (gallons?) of diesel fuel" There was at most 3500 gallons of jet fuel available for the fire.
  2. You lied by claiming the fires were uncontrolled and raged "for several hours". The fires were under control towards the end, and burned only for 56 minutes in the North Tower, and 102 minutes in the South Tower. Odd coincidence that one lasted almost exactly twice as long as the other...

What I've shown is not only have you lied, but that you can't even admit when you're wrong and then claim that you've somehow "proven" something.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   20:01:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#297. To: noone222 (#291)

Pointless to talk to that asshat !

It's fun to practice my shill slapping skills every now and then... :)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   20:02:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#298. To: AGAviator (#289)

There are a LOT of REAL experts who strongly disagree with what you're selling there pal...

Here's a small sample of them from Patriots for 9/11 Truth

 

 

Daniel Barnum

Daniel B. Barnum, FAIA


Daniel B. Barnum, B.Arch, FAIA – Fellow, American Institute of Architects. Over forty years experience in the practice of architecture. Experience covers all aspects of planning, design, construction technology and project management for a wide range of commercial, institutional, religious and residential projects. His projects have been widely published and have received design awards from AIA. Member and former Vice President of AIA Houston and Founder and Chair of the Houston AIA Residential Architecture Committee, Chair of the Urban Design Committee, and Director for Urban Issues.
  • Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:

    "I have "known" from day-one that the buildings were imploded and that they could not and would not have collapsed from the damage caused by the airplanes that ran into them."  http://www.ae911truth.org

  • Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 1,200 Architects and Engineers:

    "On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php

  • Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  ; And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.

 

 

David Helpern

David Paul Helpern, FAIA


David Paul Helpern, M.Arch, FAIA – Fellow, American Institute of Architects. Founder, Helpern Architects, a leading-edge architectural design firm for educational institutions at all levels, from elementary schools to universities. Clients include a long list of prominent cultural and faith-based organizations, as well as corporate and hospitality-industry clients.
  • Statement in support of Architects and Engineers petition:

    "The speed and symmetry of the collapses is not consistent with the damage. A new investigation is needed."  http://www.ae911truth.org

  • Signatory: Petition requesting a reinvestigation of 9/11, signed by more than 1,200 Architects and Engineers:

    "On Behalf of the People of the United States of America, the undersigned Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth and affiliates  hereby petition for, and demand, a truly independent investigation with subpoena power in order to uncover the full truth surrounding the events of 9/11/01 - specifically the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and Building 7.  We believe that there is sufficient doubt about the official story and therefore that the 9/11 investigation must be re-opened and must include a full inquiry into the possible use of explosives that may have been the actual cause behind the destruction of the World Trade Center Towers and WTC Building 7." http://www.ae911truth.org/joinus.php

  • Editor's note: WTC Building 7 was 610 feet tall, 47 stories.  It would have been the tallest building in 33 states.  Although it was not hit by an airplane, it completely collapsed into a pile of rubble in less than 7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, seven hours after the collapses of the Twin Towers.  However, no mention of its collapse appears in the 9/11 Commission's "full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks."  Watch the collapse video here.  ; And six years after 9/11, the Federal government has yet to publish its promised final report that explains the cause of its collapse.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   20:11:50 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#299. To: Original_Intent (#292)

Nah, CENTCOM tests their posters for drugs all the time.

What is your background to make a claim like this? Have you been in any military organization existing in the past century or for that matter, this century that ensures you can make a viable statement like that?

Answer the question without going off topic. You can click on my Internet handle to see I have background.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   20:14:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#300. To: Original_Intent (#292)

Nah, CENTCOM tests their posters for drugs all the time.

Ah, but they HAVE given them LSD in the past...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   20:15:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#301. To: Original_Intent (#285)

he can't he and his pals of the liar movement get fined for straying off the authorized list of official government fairy tale "fact" sheet.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   20:17:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#302. To: IRTorqued (#301)

You know, sometimes there are assholes that don't know nada from time to time. And the more I see your attempt to make a publick post ... IT IS YOU!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   20:20:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#303. To: buckeroo (#299)

Nah, CENTCOM tests their posters for drugs all the time.

What is your background to make a claim like this? Have you been in any military organization existing in the past century or for that matter, this century that ensures you can make a viable statement like that?

Answer the question without going off topic. You can click on my Internet handle to see I have background.

Uh, buck? I'm a Vet. I know from first hand experience. Random drug testing is the rule for everyone. Of course when certain senior officers get caught the test is declared invalid, but that's the military for you.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   20:26:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#304. To: FormerLurker (#296)

What I've shown is not only have you lied, but that you can't even admit when you're wrong and then claim that you've somehow "proven" something.

he has proven one thing; that he is happy to perpetuate a lie that has caused the deaths of an untold/unknowable number of people and will continue to spread the lie until the nation collapses from the weight of the scum he and his ilk lift up praise.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   20:30:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#305. To: IRTorqued (#301)

he can't he and his pals of the liar movement get fined for straying off the authorized list of official government fairy tale "fact" sheet.

More than likely. I imagine you've noticed the same as I have i.e., that if you are dealing with a real shill they will never, never, never, never, never, admit that any particular of the "Official Fairy Tale©" could even conceivably be incorrect no matter what evidence is presented. Which is why I don't bother citing references for them most of the time unless it serves my point. They won't read them, but the lurkers might.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   20:31:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#306. To: FormerLurker (#300)

Nah, CENTCOM tests their posters for drugs all the time.

Ah, but they HAVE given them LSD in the past...

Among other things. Thankfully, as near as I know, the only thing I ever had used on me was Tear Gas during boot camp, and that was just to prove to us that the Gas Masks did work.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-10   20:33:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#307. To: buckeroo (#302)

strike a nerve did I bucky?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   20:37:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#308. To: Original_Intent (#303)

I'm a Vet. I know from first hand experience. Random drug testing is the rule for everyone. Of course when certain senior officers get caught the test is declared invalid, but that's the military for you.

Oh BS... during Vietnam there was no drug testing. Let me see your "vet experience" .. describe it to me and the channel, pal'; I want your military experience detail ... AND you are awesome about using poly-syllables on a mere chit chat channel describing your personal feelings.

During Vietnam, there was no such thing about consistent methods within the military to perform random drug testing. NONE.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   20:39:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#309. To: IRTorqued (#307)

Not at all. You are distracting the thread from the main topic banner.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   20:40:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#310. To: buckeroo (#308)

CENTCOM wasn't established until 1983, well after US involvement in Vietnam.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   20:42:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#311. To: buckeroo (#309)

the main topic being you and the rest of the liar movement must defend the official fairy tale at all costs.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   20:44:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#312. To: IRTorqued (#304)

he has proven one thing; that he is happy to perpetuate a lie that has caused the deaths of an untold/unknowable number of people and will continue to spread the lie until the nation collapses from the weight of the scum he and his ilk lift up praise.

Yep. He should have a bumper sticker on his car that says "traitors for 9/11 lies"...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-10   20:51:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#313. To: Dakmar (#310)

while going through A school Oct. '80 to Mar '81 the policy then was only persons under 25 years of age were in the "hat" for random selection for operation golden flow with full on everybody is in the mix for random testing started in late '82. from '99 up until I retired in '03 I'd bug the piss coordinator if I could give a sample due to the plethora of drugs I'd been prescribed for a couple crushed disc at L4 and L5.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   20:57:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#314. To: IRTorqued (#311)

the main topic being you and the rest of the liar movement must defend the official fairy[sp: faerie] tale at all costs.

Learn to spell. You believe in little purple faeries. Who knows how you consider placing your overly used false chompers under a pillow awaiting a faerie to alight you with a single coin for tomorrow's promises you don't believe in your self.

It is your problem.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   20:59:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#315. To: FormerLurker (#312)

even without a bumper sticker anyone with a shred of common sense can see him and his fellow travelers of the liar movement coming from miles. bucky seems upset no one will acknowledge his status as a paid shill for the official fairy tale.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   21:02:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#316. To: Dakmar (#310)

CENTCOM wasn't established until 1983, well after US involvement in Vietnam.

Yeah. I like that shapeshifting factoid. There was no squabble about CONUS or OCONUS was there despite the recently or relatively changed command posts.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   21:04:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#317. To: buckeroo (#314)

is that why you wake up with a quarter in your teeth and jiz dripping from your bung?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   21:04:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#318. To: IRTorqued (#317)

How the FUCK would you know?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   21:08:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#319. To: buckeroo (#318)

LOL!


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   21:15:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#320. To: IRTorqued (#319)

Oh it is phunney as you suggest some sort of queer strategy about my comments and my personal dignity, 'eh lamer?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   21:17:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#321. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#296) (Edited)

You stated that there were "uncontrolled fires fed by tens of thousands of diesel fuel burning through an office building for several hours"

I'm talking about WTC 7 ("an office building"), supposed to be your prime candidate as evidence for CD's.

WTC 7 had more than 20,000 gallons feeding an uninterruped power supply with self-contained pumps continually pushing the diesel through a severed feed line until all tanks were totally empty.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   21:18:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#322. To: IRTorqued (#317)

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-10   21:18:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#323. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#278) (Edited)

No loser, your inflated numbers include a large percentage believing that the USG did not participate in the attacks, but also did not do enough to prevent or stop them.

Go argue with Ohio University, they're the ones that did the survey. BTW, who performed YOUR survey, yourself

Twofferk00ks infiltrate Bill Maher TV show, he kicks them out, audience applauds.

To Twofferk00k in audience:

Maher: "And you are a nut case, Building 7...Of all the things I've said...the one they protest about here is the people who think the World Trade Center was a controlled explosion.

You see, in that instance I'm actually defending President Bush. I don't think President Bush brought down the World Trade Center."

Audience: "Booooooo"

Maher: "And cows disagree with me."

Audience: Laughter and thunderous applause.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   21:23:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#324. To: AGAviator (#323)

Are you thinking of calling "security" to "kick our asses" (out)? It won't work, trust me. :)

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   21:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#325. To: buckeroo (#320)

persons who perpetuate a lie causing the death of an untold/unknowable number of people world wide calling it a war on terror have no personal dignity, that is you and your pals of the liar movement.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   21:31:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#326. To: James Deffenbach (#322)

feel free to rub his nose in it the next time he goes spastic.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   21:33:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#327. To: IRTorqued (#325) (Edited)

Yeah, twofer... you lost the little grain of respect I had for your posts as you consider issues far removed from the topic of thread. You attacked me for no reason while you have a personal problem of identifying yourself as a self-professed queer.

[edit: in fact, goodbye forever until your next Internet handle.]

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   21:35:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#328. To: Dakmar (#324)

Are you thinking of calling "security" to "kick our asses" (out)? It won't work, trust me. :)

Nothing of the sort.

However when you emerge from your own "7th century caves" on the internet, and publicly go after the people you anonymously trash on your k00kblogs, expect an unwelcome reception by the great majority of the American population.

Because you are a minority, and an irrelevant one at that.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   21:37:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#329. To: AGAviator (#328)

Because you are a minority, and an irrelevant one at that

Irrelevant? :)

That bring back memories from LP. I suggest you save us both some time and call me an anti-Semite and then insist the discussion is over and stalk off all in a huffy-huff..

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   21:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#330. To: Dakmar (#329)

That bring back memories from LP.

Get your head out of your ASS. At LP, the issue was about GWBush going into Iraq. Don't squirm out of this, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   21:47:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#331. To: Dakmar (#324)

the audience must have been filled with members of the liar movement, they hate free speech that questions the sacraments of the official fairy tale.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   21:49:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#332. To: buckeroo (#327)

wow like the respect from one of the liar movement is a thing of value and as for "no reason" dementia fills your little world with askew lights.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-10   21:56:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#333. To: buckeroo (#330)

At LP, the issue was about GWBush going into Iraq.

Are you sure? Because I remember a lot of posters throwing out the term. In fact, it seemed to be more of a cheap stunt than an effective debating tactic, seemed sort of "boiler room", even.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   21:56:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#334. To: IRTorqued (#331)

the audience must have been filled with members of the liar movement, they hate free speech that questions the sacraments of the official fairy tale.

Just a regular TV audience, I think.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   21:59:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#335. To: Dakmar (#333)

LQQK back in time and personally reflect on the war issues. Afghanistan was rarely brought up; the focus was a US government mission without a declaration of war by Congress in Iraq.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   21:59:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#336. To: buckeroo (#335)

LQQK back in time and personally reflect on the war issues.

First I'll buy some beads
And then perhaps a leather band
To go around my head
Some feathers and bells
And a book of Indian lore
I will ask the Chamber Of Commerce

How to get to Haight Street
And smoke an awful lot of dope
I will wander around barefoot
I will have a psychedelic gleam in my eye at all times
I will love everyone
I will love the police as they kick the shit out of me on the street
I will sleep . . .
I will, I will go to a house
That's, that's what I will do

I will go to a house
Where there's a rock & roll band
'Cause the groups all live together
And I will join a rock & roll band
I will be their road manager

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   22:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#337. To: Dakmar (#336)

Beyond the dope, there are always some fine chicks.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-10   22:10:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#338. To: Dakmar (#329) (Edited)

Because you are a minority, and an irrelevant one at that

Irrelevant? :)

What would you prefer to call it?

Zogby America Likely Voters 8/23/07 thru 8/27/07 MOE +/- 3.1 percentage points Pages 5 - 8

402. There are three main schools of thought regarding the 9/11 attacks.

The first theory is the official story, and maintains that 19 Arab fundamentalists executed a surprise attack which caught US intelligence and military forces off guard.

The second theory known as Let It Happen argues that certain elements in the US government knew the attacks were coming but consciously let them proceed for various political, military and economic motives; and

The third theory Made It Happen contends that certain US government elements actively planned or assisted some aspects of the attacks.

Based upon your knowledge of 9/11 events and their aftermath, which theory are you more likely to agree with?

Official story........................ 639..... 63.6%
Let it happen....................... 266...... 26.4%
Made it happen..................... 46....... 4.6%
NS....................................... 54........ 5.4%
Total..................................1006... 100.0%

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   22:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#339. To: AGAviator (#338)

I see. You don't understand the difference between popular sentiment and rational thought. Are you planning to vote for Obama in 2012 or are you still waiting to see what everyone else is doing?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   22:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#340. To: Dakmar, buckeroo, turtle, critter, Dakmar (#339)

You don't understand the difference between popular sentiment and rational thought.

Ther's nothing rational about your own unsubstantiated assertions the collapses happened because of activities done directly by the US govenment.

You've had nearly 9 years to make your case, and as time goes on more and more people are advocating the US get out of Middle East wars, but less and less of them are saying the original attacks were done by the US.

There is a much more substantial minority - also cited in the polls - who believes certain elements within the USG didn't do enough to head off the attacks, which I also subscribe to. But not did it themselves, because they're not cunning or smart enough to pull something of this scale off without it blowing up in their faces and being discovered.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-10   22:45:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#341. To: AGAviator (#340)

Ther's nothing rational about your own unsubstantiated assertions the collapses happened because of activities done directly by the US govenment.

I've asserted no such thing, but why let facts stand in the way of a good lie?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-10   22:53:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#342. To: AGAviator (#323)

Twofferk00ks infiltrate Bill Maher TV show, he kicks them out, audience applauds.

So what are YOU, a LIARKOOK? BTW, are you a huge disciple of Bill Maher? I bet you're a huge fan of Obama too, aren't you...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   1:25:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#343. To: AGAviator (#321)

WTC 7 had more than 20,000 gallons feeding an uninterruped power supply with self-contained pumps continually pushing the diesel through a severed feed line until all tanks were totally empty.

Really? Post a link. Or is that something else you made up and/or pulled out of your ass? Incidently, even IF true, how's that explain the sudden symetrical collapse and free fall?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   1:26:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#344. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, (#343) (Edited)

Really?

Post a link.

Or is that something else you made up and/or pulled out of your ass?

Incidently, even IF true

What a little faggot you are.

You're ignorant of facts, you want to challenge and insult me, but you're worried I'll bitch slap you with incontrovertible facts like I've done to so many other kooks already, so you line up your final smokescreen of "even if true."

You're pathetic, Six Percenter. Or make that 4.6 percenter if you want to go by the 2007 Zogby results.

And do your own research instead of demanding I do it for you. Nobody needs to convince you idiots of anything, because you're irrelevant.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   2:13:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#345. To: FormerLurker (#342)

So what are YOU, a LIARKOOK? BTW, are you a huge disciple of Bill Maher? I bet you're a huge fan of Obama too

I'm somebody who hates liars, k00ks, and groupthink.

As far as Obama, I've already said elsewhere he's 50% brain dead in a government with most people 99% brain dead. So no I'm not a fan, but on his worst day he's better than the likes of you.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   2:16:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#346. To: Dakmar, AGAviator, a.k.a. Tailspin Charley (#339)

You don't understand the difference between popular sentiment and rational thought. Are you planning to vote for Obama in 2012 or are you still waiting to see what everyone else is doing?

O-o-o-b-a-a-a-a-aaamaa.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-11   2:19:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#347. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Dakmar, all (#345)

As far as Obama, I've already said elsewhere he's 50% brain dead in a government with most people 99% brain dead. So no I'm not a fan, but on his worst day he's better than the likes of you.

So, where do you place people who believe in preposterous government conspiracy theories who sycophantically suspend whatever faculties they may have to repeat ad nauseam spin line after spin line?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-11   2:22:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#348. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, Critter, Dakmar, Jethro Tull, christine, Rotara, Artisan, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, Flintlock, noone222, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, HighLairEon, bluegrass, James Deffenbach, *9-11*, all (#344)

Ad homs are all you got and all you'll ever have. ;-)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   2:24:14 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#349. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Dakmar, all (#344)

And do your own research instead of demanding I do it for you. Nobody needs to convince you idiots of anything, because you're irrelevant.

Then if the viewpoint is irrelevant why have you run two threads into the three hundreds pontificating about the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" and how all of the anomalies and contradictory information can be carefully spun explained away by using the tips and tricks of the "Less than Amazing Randi"?

The reality is that it is true and it is you who is out of step with the picture the evidence paints.

Sorry about using words of more than one syllable, but you have to learn how to use a dictionary some day.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-11   2:27:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#350. To: Dakmar, Original_Intent, christine, FormerLurker, all, *Post Of The Day* (#339)

I see. You don't understand the difference between popular sentiment and rational thought. Are you planning to vote for Obama in 2012 or are you still waiting to see what everyone else is doing?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   2:32:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#351. To: Original_Intent (#347)

So, where do you place people who believe in preposterous government conspiracy theories who sycophantically suspend whatever faculties they may have to repeat ad nauseam spin line after spin line?

Tell me how the 2004 Obama video interview with al Jazeera, where he says that he and Bush are working together to bankrupt the US, albeit for different motives, is a "preposterous government conspiracy theory."

And don't get started on your ***preposterous*** "it wasn't OBL in the video" claim, either.

That's been debunked too.

911 Myths.com: Why Does Osama Have 2 Different Noses? Pages 1-3

This is like one of those “before and after” cosmetic surgery ads in which the “before” photo is deliberately unflattering, with harsh directional lighting. True, the quality of the “confession” video is very poor, as is the quality of this reproduction, but did the “truth-seekers” really use a representative video still?

For example, at right is another video still of Bin Laden. It’s also from a poor-quality video with bad lighting, but I think we can agree that he looks like the “long nose” Bin Laden in the photo on the above right, yes? But if I had chosen the worst still from that video, bin Laden might look more like me or like Fidel Castroor like the guy in the photo at the above left.

Well guess what? The still at right is also from the confession video. It’s the same man, in the same setting, as the “short nose” Bin Laden. My, how deceiving people can be when they cherry-pick information! So, “truth seekers,” what do you have to say for yourselves? How interested are you in finding the truth? I await your answer.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   3:07:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#352. To: AGAviator (#351)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-11   3:09:10 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#353. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#349) (Edited)

Then if the viewpoint is irrelevant why have you run two threads into the three hundreds

How many of your k00kflock members have addressed posts to me, complete with your denials, personal attacks usually your containing scatological and obscene projections like this one , never- ending bizarre theories of alternate reality, and truckoads of beside the point, off-topic, preprogrammed word dumps.

Tell me what proportion of the posts and word content on any thread is mine vs. you people. You are the ones dragging these things out because you can't stay on topic and you can't stop trying to defend the unsupportable.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   3:15:09 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#354. To: wudidiz (#348) (Edited)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   3:20:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#355. To: AGAviator (#353)

Please tell me who fucking invited a homosexual twerp like you to violate the normal harmony shared by others here that aren't government informant TWERPS.

(Twerp = one that farts in the bath tub and then bites the bubble to sniff it. Most TWERPS are also kikes. This mental disorder appears to be genetic).

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces

noone222  posted on  2010-07-11   4:23:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#356. To: wudidiz (#348)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   6:46:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#357. To: AGAviator, All (#338)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   6:51:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#358. To: FormerLurker (#343)

Really? Post a link. Or is that something else you made up and/or pulled out of your ass? Incidently, even IF true, how's that explain the sudden symetrical collapse and free fall?

It wouldn't. Never forget, they are talking about KEROSENE. It takes many gallons of it to burn a brush pile if it is wet or the stuff in it is green. No joke, I burned a brush pile about a year ago and I had a barrel of kerosene--good-sized barrel, probably half full. I thought I was going to have to use all of it on that brush pile! I finally got it burned by using my leaf blower like a bellows in a blacksmith shop. And that 20,000 gallons he is on about was not that Magickal Jet Fuel™. I think it may have been a few drops of that that hit building 7. /s

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-11   7:48:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#359. To: AGAviator (#338)

The first theory is the official story, and maintains that 19 Arab fundamentalists executed a surprise attack which caught US intelligence and military forces off guard.

That is the correct story.

It unfortunately leaves a lot of us with a sense that all the tax dollars pissed away on intelligence and military and associated services were absolutlely flushed down the toilet.

And when you couple the FACT that all of the 19 terrorists were here illegally, you wonder who is asleep at the wheel or is anyone really there.

Of course, immediately afterwards, the US government creates the US Patriot Act permitting eavesdrops on US citizens without court orders and other domestic spying activities and called "new tools" which clearly violate our individual rights and liberties ..... and there is even more .... create two war efforts (although Iraq was illegal) that later shows even more absurd blunders by the US military /intelligence when not one WMD was discovered .... and then leads to a consolidation of the intelligence services within a new umbrella organization tucked under "Homeland security."

Meanwhile, all this wasted money has done nothing with the singular exception of expanding the US government .... pissing away more dollars.

The American government is a laff a minute. It is reminiscent of the old slap-stick comedy team, "the Three Stooges."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   11:47:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#360. To: buckeroo (#359)

Buckeroo. Why didn't Andrews Air Force Base Respond? Oh that is right they just happened to be sent out over the atlantic ocean that day. Then sept 12 their website just happened to change their misson statement of protecting their area.

I have some holy water to sell you. It costs just a thousand dollars and you are guaranteed to get to meet God. /end sarcasm

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-11   11:51:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#361. To: A K A Stone (#360)

Why didn't Andrews Air Force Base Respond?

The pilots were on a honorarium for their Chief Pilot in the White House. They were too sick from self imbibed alcohol and cocaine poisoning to make a difference as a salute to their role model.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   11:54:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#362. To: buckeroo (#361)

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-11   11:56:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#363. To: Eric Stratton (#357)

What, you gonna cite home prices as of January '06 as "the going rate" too.

The amount of people who GAS about 911 k00ktheories has gone down since then, dimwit.

There are a number of people running for election advocating the US get out of the Middle East. Up from past years. However not one of them is expressing belief in the "USG controlled demolition" theory freakshow, in spite of the CT'ers having 9 years and unending internet resources to make their case and persuade the public.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   12:44:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#364. To: A K A Stone, buckeroo, (#360) (Edited)

Buckeroo. Why didn't Andrews Air Force Base Respond?

The US Air Force's primary task has always been to protect the US from foreign attack, not from hijacked domestic civil aircraft.

All commercial traffic within the US is under control of the FAA, not the US military. This means that any request for the Air Force to patrol or police the internal US civilian air traffic must come from and through the FAA.

At the time of the hijackings there were several thousand aircraft in the air, over US air space. Those several thousand planes had to be landed and given orderly instructions and routes, and then tracked, to get down without crashing.

Air traffic control of thousands of planes simultaneously without any advance notice is not done like musical chairs where you just grab the nearest seat and damn any consequences. There has to be an ordered emergency procedure which takes a number of minutes to clear the skies.

All aircraft, even hostile military aircraft, normally use transponders to show their locations to their own sides. The hostile aircraft can turn off their transponders once inside hostile territory, but then run the risk of getting shot down by any of their own support craft once they do this. So frequently it is possible to identify hostile aircraft through transponders, which is much easier than trying to track a few objects hundreds of miles away with weak radar signals, scattered among thousands of aircraft with strong transponder signals. However the transponders of all 4 hijacked aircraft were turned off immediately after they were taken over so they were much harder to track.

All this "Conspiracy! The USAF didn't instantly know where all the hijacked planes with no transponder signals were!" are products of the usual suspects - internet rubes with zero knowledge of the subject matter, in this case aviation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   13:00:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#365. To: AGAviator, AKA Stone (#364)

That was an excellent response and to the point; earlier on my response to the same question, I was being ludicrous .... as it is one of my nasty traits.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   13:18:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#366. To: buckeroo (#365) (Edited)

That was an excellent response and to the point

Thanks, I'm gradually putting together a list of all the CT's I've debunked over the last couple months, with summarized facts, links, discussions, and conclusions.

Then I'm going to post it so we can see the track record of the CT's in one issue after another, together with their denials, arm-wavings, and refusals to acknowledge the most basic realties in so many different subjects:

From "The moon landings didn't ever happen," to "Hawaii doesn't have Obama's original Birth Certificate" even though Hawaii's official says she has personally gone gone into the vault and reviewed it (Obama's original BC is not some sort of religious relic where just anybody can go up and start handling it, it's stored in a vault to preserve it), to the "WTC's are conteolled demolitions" even though there are explicit quotes of firepeople taking about how the fires are out of control and Building 7 is in jeopardy of collapse..

There are lots more, should be interesting.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   13:44:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#367. To: AGAviator (#366)

.... I'm gradually putting together a list of all the CT's I've debunked over the last couple months, with summarized facts, links, discussisons, and conclusions.

Then I'm going to post it so we can see the track record of the CT's in one issue after another, together with their denials, arm-wavings, and refusals to acknowledge the most basic realties in so many different subjects:

You could spend a lifetime chasing that stuff. I am much more content with just a post or two ... then again, I have a lot of other work to perform.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   13:51:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#368. To: AGAviator, All (#363)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   14:57:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#369. To: Eric Stratton, turtle, buckeroo'critter (#368) (Edited)

Bullshit!

The number that think that what we've been spoon fed has increased steadily

Bullshit right back at you.

Show me a poll. Show me a viable candidate anywhere. Show me a single confessor out of the thousands of people who would had to coordinate to distribution and setup of WTC buildings collapses.

911truth.org actually commissioned a 2006 Zogby poll asking "Zogby Poll Finds Over 70 Million Voting Age Americans Support New 9/11 Investigation" which of course is totally different than saying "the US government destroyed the WTC buildings using controlled demoltions."

Since 911truth paid for the poll themselves, they had the opportunity to make one if its questions "Did the USG use controlled demolitions to destroy the buildings and/or the Pentagon."

They did not because they knew they would get a very unfavorable response.

This is typical Twoofer behavior. They start out on one subject, then move the goalposts, introduce unsupported additional claims and so-called facts, wordsmith the replies, and eventually claim support for subjects never originally mentioned.

Per their own website, 911truth.org is already interfacing with the poll business. Go to 911truth and ask them why they haven't had a poll with an explicit "USG did 911" question it it.

QED

pwned.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   15:27:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#370. To: AGAviator, all (#369)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   15:42:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#371. To: AGAviator (#369)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   15:43:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#372. To: buckeroo (#365)

one of my nasty traits.

All this useless vitriol and I still don't have a positive ID on yuklown or Mad Dog.

Tomorrow it's back to writing annual reviews, there's still hope for a "Meets Standards", buck.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-11   17:10:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#373. To: Samuel Gray, buckeroo (#372)

All this useless vitriol and I still don't have a positive ID on yuklown or Mad Dog.

Is there even a way for a non-sysop to find a positive ID of someone posting on a website?

Besides, what would you do with such information? Harrass them via e-mail? Sign them up for a Columbia CD club membership or some sort of raunchy gay sex magazine? While it would be funny it's pretty childish.

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-07-11   17:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#374. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#373)

No, but those are all great ideas...

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-11   17:17:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#375. To: Samuel Gray (#374)

No, but those are all great ideas...

LOL!

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-07-11   17:20:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#376. To: AGAviator, *9-11* (#364)

If you think you're fooling anyone other than buck, stone or turtle, you're mistaken.

The Airforce could have and would have dealt with the "hijacked" planes if the order had been given.

The order wasn't given.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   17:22:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#377. To: wudidiz (#376)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   17:25:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#378. To: Eric Stratton, christine, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#370)

You're a walking Neocon talking point!

You're a Six Percenter, who can't deal with details and instead attempts to stuff all reality into a "once size fits all" CT which relieves you of the burden of processing new information and thinking.

My posting of an OBL 2004 video, in which he explicitly states that both the USG and al Qaeda are both in the process of bankrupting the USA through endless warfighting, are "playing as one team," "albeit for different reasons," and my posting of a Noam Chomsky interview, where Chomsky says that extensive discussions of poorly- defined controlled demolition theories leads to unproductive areas, can hardly be described as "Neocon talking points" to any reasonable person.

Please explain how in your opinion they do.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   17:29:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#379. To: wudidiz (#376) (Edited)

The Airforce could have and would have dealt with the "hijacked" planes if the order had been given

You clearly know nothing about aviation procedures or the facts on the ground on that day, before, during, and after the hijackings.

Tell me how many hours you have as a pilot.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   17:31:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#380. To: Eric Stratton (#377)

I've experienced this sort of mentality before first hand. From people that I am absolutely sure they've no motivation to argue other than that is what they truly think. Some people are quite intelligent, articulate and knowledgeable. They just lack the key ability to discern and understand. The ability is contingent on the desire or willingness to know the truth. The desire to know the truth and the desire to win an argument based on one's own preconceived false notion cannot coexist at the same time.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   17:35:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#381. To: AGAviator (#379)

You clearly know nothing about aviation procedures or the facts on the ground on that day, before, during, and after the hijackings.

Tell me how many hours you have as a pilot.

So you're saying that there is no air defense in this nation capable of protecting the national capital, eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   17:36:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#382. To: AGAviator (#379)

You clearly know nothing about aviation procedures or the facts on the ground on that day, before, during, and after the hijackings.

Tell me how many hours you have as a pilot.

My Father was a fighter pilot and airline pilot.

I was around the Military for 20 years.

If the U.S. Airforce wanted those planes removed from the sky, they would be removed from the sky.

Period.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   17:37:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#383. To: AGAviator (#344)

What a little faggot you are.

So if I'm a little faggot, what's that make you?

Projection appears to be your forte here, perhaps your ass is a bit sore today?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   17:39:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#384. To: AGAviator, All (#379)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   17:46:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#385. To: FormerLurker, wududiz, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#381) (Edited)

So you're saying that there is no air defense in this nation capable of protecting the national capital, eh?

I've said that at the time the 911 hijackings happened,

(1) The USAF was principally charged with protecting the country from external threats,
(2) All civilian USA air traffic is controlled by the FAA, not the USAF, so any USAF actions would have to be done in conjunction with the FAA,
(3) The existing hijacking scenarios presumed the aircraft transponders would be secretly squawked to 7500 and not turned off causing the signatures to completely disappear from the screen,
(4) The existing hijacking scenarios presumed hijacked planes would land somewhere, not be turned into suicide bombs traveling at 450- 500 knots to crash into targets, and
(5) OBL himself says in his October 2004 interview the hijackers were trained to finish their missions within 20 minutes, but due to Bush being more concerned with a goat butting story than airplanes butting the WTC, the hijackers had 60 minutes and not 20 to complete their tasks. Which they didn't comletely need though they did take more than 20
So the USAF had 20-60 minutes to figure out a hijacking took place, figure out it was dangerous new type of suicide mission, clear thousands of regular craft from the sky, scramble jets, get vectors on hijacked planes flying with transponders off, guess destinations, and intercept the hijacked aircraft.

All had to have taken place within 20-40 minutes for "first time" occurrences.

Ridiculous.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   17:49:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#386. To: AGAviator, All (#378)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   17:55:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#387. To: wudidiz (#380)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   17:57:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#388. To: wudidiz (#380)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   17:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#389. To: Eric Stratton, FormerLurker (#388)

Arguing with them is perhaps pointless as far as getting them to change their minds.

Then when they get angry due to "getting their wires crossed" or WhateverTF it is that's going on, they project. Hence the name calling.

Personally I find the circular arguments and the intellectual dishonesty tiresome and boring.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   18:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#390. To: wudidiz (#389)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   18:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#391. To: AGAviator, *9-11* (#385)

the hijackers had 60 minutes and not 20 to complete their tasks

If the hijackers had 60, the Airforce had 60.

Fighters should have been up there following those planes within 15 minutes.

They weren't because they weren't ordered to.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   18:19:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#392. To: wudidiz (#391)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   18:22:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#393. To: Eric Stratton (#392)

We could start a music thread.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   18:28:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#394. To: wudidiz (#393)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   18:44:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#395. To: FormerLurker (#383)

So if I'm a little faggot, what's that make you?

Someone who's given you sufficient amounts of information you can't rebut to start on your tactics in the first place.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   21:57:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#396. To: wudidiz (#391)

If the hijackers had 60, the Airforce had 60.

Fighters should have been up there following those planes within 15 minutes.

They weren't because they weren't ordered to.

911 Myths: 67 NORAD Intercepts

In the decade before 9/11, NORAD intercepted only one civilian plane over North America: golfer Payne Stewart's Learjet, in October 1999.

With passengers and crew unconscious from cabin decompression, the plane lost radio contact but remained in transponder contact until it crashed.

Even so, it took an F-16 1 hour and 22 minutes to reach the stricken jet.

Rules in effect back then, and on 9/11, prohibited supersonic flight on intercepts. Prior to 9/11, all other NORAD interceptions were limited to offshore Air Defense Identification Zones (ADIZ).

"Until 9/11 there was no domestic ADIZ," FAA spokesman Bill Schumann tells PM. After 9/11, NORAD and the FAA increased cooperation, setting up hotlines between ATCs and NORAD command centers, according to officials from both agencies. NORAD has also increased its fighter coverage and has installed radar to monitor airspace over the continent.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   22:15:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#397. To: AGAviator (#395)

Someone who's given you sufficient amounts of information you can't rebut to start on your tactics in the first place.

You don't give information, you give BS and use already discredited claims as your "proof". You ignore anything that doesn't suit your world view, and tap dance around hoping to impress the easily amused.

The only "rebut" you have is what you get from your boyfriend "Re" each evening.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   22:25:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#398. To: FormerLurker, turtle, buckeroo, critter (#397)

Once again, little faggot, bring your own shit and psycodramas onto the thread.

Origially you challenged me to produce a link about 20,000 gallons of fuel feeding uncontrolled WTC 7 fires for hours. Then you tried to protect your pathetic little bottom by saying "Even if true" at the end.

I told you do your own research. You posed the question over 10 hours ago. Instead of getting your own answer you continued on the personal attack the speaker level even though the information is freely available all over the sections of the internet that are not dominated by k00ks.

I say again. The WTC 7 building fires were fed by over 20,000 gallons of fuel for emergency power supplies.

So prove me wrong, little faggot, and stop your blithering about anybody else but you and your fellow k00ks being liars and discredited claims. And keep your fagtalk to your fellow circlejerks.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   22:57:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#399. To: Eric Stratton, AGAviator (#384)

Otherwise, fine, have it your way, there was no coverup, no hurry to dispense with evidence, all of the firefighters and police on video were obviously delusional all day long, and our Government can be fully trusted.

As opposed to chiming in with sarcasm on occasion, why not add some facts to support your doubts and suspicions? It will make you feel like an accomplished poster!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   22:58:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#400. To: Original_Intent, *9-11* (#399)

4 Hunnert


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   23:01:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#401. To: buckeroo, Eric Stratton (#399)

As opposed to chiming in with sarcasm on occasion, why not add some facts.....

....oh the irony....


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   23:02:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#402. To: AGAviator (#385)

So the USAF had 20-60 minutes to figure out a hijacking took place, figure out it was dangerous new type of suicide mission, clear thousands of regular craft from the sky, scramble jets, get vectors on hijacked planes flying with transponders off, guess destinations, and intercept the hijacked aircraft. All had to have taken place within 20-40 minutes for "first time" occurrences.

Bullshit. Andrews AFB is right next to DC, and they ALWAYS have jets on standby in case there's an urgent need. They had TWO sqaudrons on alert that morning.

But no, instead, they had jets sitting on the tarmac at at Langley, which is 130 miles away, going to battle stations at 9:09 shortly after the 2nd jet hits the WTC, and a good 15 minutes after jets are scrambled out of OTIS AFB in Massachusetts. They then launched them at 9:24, flew them over the ocean for a bit, then decidedto mosy them over towards DC at about 410 mph, whereas they can fly at 1500+ mph.

Flight 77 didn't impact the Pentagon till 9:43 that morning. the jets from Langley get there at 9:49.

If they had flown straight to DC at top speed, they could have been there before it was too late. THAT, or if they had launched out of Andrews, they would have already been in position to do something.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   23:04:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#403. To: buckeroo (#399)

As opposed to chiming in with sarcasm on occasion, why not add some facts to support your doubts and suspicions?

They actually need an "eebil gubmint" to premise all their arguments on. Without it they offer no facts and inferences to base any sensible conclusions on.

And also, the "eebil gubmint" needs to be able to point to gaggles of k00ks and say "Look at our opposition!"

In psychology, this condition is called "co-dependency."

ROTFL!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   23:04:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#404. To: wudidiz (#401)

Isn't irony ironic?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-11   23:04:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#405. To: AGAviator (#385)

The existing hijacking scenarios presumed hijacked planes would land somewhere, not be turned into suicide bombs traveling at 450- 500 knots to crash into targets, and

More bullshit. The fact is, not only they were PRACTICING that very scenario that morning, injecting false radar blips on FAA screens to indicate hijacked aircraft, but the NRO had an evacuation planned that morning as part of a drill on how to respond to a hijacked aircraft BEING USED AS A MISSLE.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   23:06:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#406. To: AGAviator (#385)

OBL himself says in his October 2004 interview

Osama bin Laden himself was DEAD in DEC. 2001.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   23:07:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#407. To: FormerLurker (#402)

If they had flown straight to DC at top speed, they could have been there before it was too late

There are radio transcripts of fighters being instructed en route to get there and "I don't care how many windows you break," i.e. fly supersonic which was a complete departure from previous regulations.

They were still too late even with that instruction.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   23:07:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#408. To: buckeroo, All (#399)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:09:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#409. To: wudidiz (#401)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:10:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#410. To: wudidiz (#401)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:11:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#411. To: Eric Stratton (#408)

WT-7 was falling from the concussion of the twin towers. Why do you think that was made up?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:11:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#412. To: FormerLurker (#402)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:13:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#413. To: FormerLurker (#406)

Osama bin Laden himself was DEAD in DEC. 2001.

Prove it.

The October 2004 message is entirely consistent with Bin Laden interviews and fatwahs given throughout the 1990's, including statements he made after the twin bombings of US Embassies in Africa, and an attack on a US base in Saudi Arabia.

Its statement that US policies and military industrial complex are the culprits can in no way be called a USG official government story.

The OBL image is also very similar and consistent, with only cherry-picked selective editing by CT's being claimed to not be the same person. And they offer no voice analysis either. Just the usual grabbing for any pretext to deny information any reasonable person will consider settled.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   23:13:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#414. To: Eric Stratton (#356)

it looks to be a don't feed the troll warning


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-11   23:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#415. To: Eric Stratton (#412)

This charade is just more mental masturbation bullshit for the weakminded blue pillers.

How many intercepts in US airspace prior to 911?

How many supersonic intercepts in US airspace prior to 911?

How long over 15 minutes did it take USAF fighters to intercept Payne Stewart's out of control, but on autopilot and prefiled IFR route, with transponder on, Gulfstream prior to 911?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-11   23:16:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#416. To: AGAviator (#403)

They actually need an "eebil gubmint" to premise all their arguments on.

Everyone knows government on all levels is inefficient and creates absurd power out of majickal pixie dust from a silly majority opinion. And this has lead to a lot of sarcasm and distrust about government. I certainly know this is true and I wager you do too.

However, American government is not performing a method to murder innocent women and children; nor has it ever done so.

The argument is silly.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:21:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#417. To: buckeroo (#411) (Edited)

                                       

WT-7 was falling from the concussion of the twin towers.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-11   23:22:09 ET  (20 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#418. To: AGAviator (#413)

Osama bin Laden himself was DEAD in DEC. 2001.

Prove it.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:22:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#419. To: buckeroo (#411)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:23:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#420. To: IRTorqued (#414)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:24:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#421. To: AGAviator (#403)

"eebil gubmint"

You work for them, enjoy!

WARNING: AGAviator is a paid government agent who is here to spread disinformation. BEWARE!

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-11   23:25:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#422. To: AGAviator (#415)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:25:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#423. To: James Deffenbach (#417)

I am happy you have a laff a minute. Now, isn't a bit late for you to be up at this hour? Scurry along and have a nice hot cup of cocoa before beddy-bye. Sweet-dreams.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:26:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#424. To: AGAviator (#385)

(4) The existing hijacking scenarios presumed hijacked planes would land somewhere, not be turned into suicide bombs traveling at 450- 500 knots to crash into targets, and

From 9/11 coincidences and oddities page!

9/11 - Before the Pentagon was hit, Pentagon medic Matt Rosenberg was studying a new MASCAL emergency disaster plan which is based on the unlikely scenario of an airplane crashing into the Pentagon.

"Matt Rosenberg was down on Corridor 8, a medic at the health clinic in the massive military headquarters, grateful for an uninterrupted hour in which he could study a new medical emergency disaster plan based on the unlikely scenario of an airplane crashing into the place." - Washington Post (09/16/01)

"Matt Rosenberg was down on Corridor 8, a medic at the health clinic in the massive military headquarters, grateful for an uninterrupted hour in which he could study a new medical emergency disaster plan based on the unlikely scenario of an airplane crashing into the place.
Into the Pentagon's health clinic rushed a man screaming, "Evacuate now! Evacuate now!" This was not part of the disaster drill Matt Rosenberg had studied earlier that morning. He stopped a procedure on a patient in Minor Surgery Treatment Room 2 and started evacuating patients.
A naval officer rushed in and said a patient was in the courtyard where some people, confused and scared, had rushed to escape the collapsing inferno inside Corridor 5. Rosenberg, 26, dashed down a hallway, pushing through hundreds of people escaping the opposite direction, until he reached the courtyard, where he saw smoke billowing and people staggering out from the area that had been hit. He grabbed his radio and called back to the clinic. "You need to initiate MASCAL [the disaster plan] right now! We have mass casualties! I need medical assets to the courtyard!" - Star Tribune/Washington Post (09/21/01) [Printer version]

Medic Describes 9/11 Response
"Excerpts from an interview with Sgt. Matthew Rosenberg regarding Sept. 11, 2001. Sgt. Rosenberg is an Army medic assigned to the DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic, the Pentagon. He also serves as the noncommissioned officer in charge of mass casualty events. He was awarded the Soldiers Medal for his actions on Sept. 11.
The day started out pretty much like any other day. We were doing … minor procedures that day, when we found out that the World Trade Center had been hit. … Somebody came in and said, "The World Trade Center got hit," and we're like, "Yeah, we know. It's horrible." They're like, "No, it got hit again." And that's when we realized it was a terrorist thing.
I got about 20 feet into the center courtyard, and that's when I saw the smoke rising out of the side of the building. Then I started seeing patients coming out, and I picked up my radio: "This is Sergeant Rosenberg. You need to initiate the MASCAL [mass casualty] plan now. We have multiple patients in the center courtyard, and I need medical assets in the center courtyard immediately." - Office of Medical History, OTSG (09/06/02)

Excerpts from an interview with Sergeant Matthew Rosenberg, a medic at the DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic.
"We had virtually completed our MASCAL plan. I was setting up training for medics, I was in the process of ordering new supplies, and trying to reinvent what we would do, how we would go about it. We still had the old MASCAL kits in place, and everything under the old guidance, and we were trying to take that a step beyond. Believe it or not, the day prior to the incident, I was just on the phone with the FBI, and we were talking ‘so who has command should this happen, who has the medical jurisdiction, who does this, who does that,’ and we talked about it and talked about it, and he helped me out a lot. And then the next day, during the incident, I actually found him. He was out there on the incident that day, and I made the joke, “You know, I used to have questions about all this, about who would have the command.” He would say, “You got any more questions?” I went, “Nope, not anymore.”
When I started seeing patients coming out of the building, I picked up my radio, and I called in, “This is Sergeant Rosenberg. You need to initiate the MASCAL plan now. We have multiple patients in the center courtyard, and I need medical assets in the courtyard immediately.”
- Soldiers to the Rescue/Responding in the Pentagon [HTML]

(See also:  September 10, 2001 - Pentagon medic Matt Rosenberg is on the phone with the FBI talking about who has command of the MASCAL plane crash plan if a plane hits the Pentagon; 9/11 - Emergency equipment for the MASCAL plane crash plan was already out of their storage areas for an inventory check before the Pentagon was hit)


9/11 - Emergency equipment for the Pentagon's MASCAL emergency plane crash plans were already out of their storage areas for an inventory check before the Pentagon was hit.

Excerpts from an interview with Major Lorie A. Brown, who was Chief Nurse of DiLorenzo TRICARE Health Clinic.
"Because the crash site was on the west side of the building the clinic was almost directly opposite, our corridor was a clear avenue for people to escape. As soon as I saw that, we initiated the MASCAL, [mass casualty plan] started galvanizing all of our assets and put our plan in action.
We actually had our MASCAL equipment out of the storage areas because we were doing an inventory. So there were many pieces that just fell into place and worked so well on that day. It was just fortuitous. It was just amazing that way that things kind of happened the way they did. But like I said our planning truly made such a huge difference on that day. Our Commander had the foresight to focus on MASCAL prep and gave us the time and budget to really revamp our old MASCAL plan. I can’t say enough about how critical this was to our success."
- Soldiers to the Rescue/Responding in the Pentagon [HTML]

(See also:  9/11 - Pentagon medic Matt Rosenberg was studying the MASCAL plane crash plan right before the Pentagon was hit; 9/11 - A Pentagon rescuer mentions how "eerie" it was that the MASCAL plane crash plan that he had twice trained for was "very similar to what actually happened")

 


9/11 - A "garrison control exercise" was being conducted at Fort Belvoir, less than 20 miles from the Pentagon, to "test the security at the base in case of a terrorist attack" and a team there was conducting classes about rescue techniques and then were one of the first responders to the Pentagon.

An Engineer's Expertise Joins a Firefighter's Nightmare

"Two groups rushing to the Pentagon that fateful morning were the firefighters from the Fort Belvoir Fire Department and a contingent of engineers from Headquarters Battalion, USAG Fort Belvoir, Military District of Washington.
"Ironically, we were conducting classes about rescue techniques when we were told of the planes hitting the World Trade Center," said Staff Sgt. Mark Williams. "My team was one of the initial response groups and one of the first to enter the building upon our arrival at the site.

AS FATE WOULD have it, that is exactly were the office of Fort Belvoir's new commanding officer, Col. Thomas Williams, who took command on July 11, 2002, had been just moments before.

Col. Williams was not in the area of his office at the moment of impact. But two who were paid the ultimate price, and another suffered severe burns, from which he is still recovering.

Lt. Col. Mark R. Lindon, Commander, Headquarters Battalion at Belvoir, was conducting a garrison control exercise. The object was to test the security at the base in case of a terrorist attack. That training exercise went operational that morning.
"I was out checking on the exercise and heard about the World Trade Center on my car radio. As soon as it was established that this was no accident, we went to a complete security mode. Some people waited up to three hours to get on base that day," Lindon recalled.
"Throughout the next 10 days, I was operating security either here or at the Pentagon." - Connection Newspapers (09/05/02)

 

- Ft Belvoir to the Pentagon = approx 18 miles - Yahoo Maps

 

(See also:  June 29, 2001 - MASCAL exercise about a terrorist incident involving an explosion is conducted at Fort Belvoir to test first team's "external response")

 


 

 9/11 - A training exercise in "airport emergency operations" is being conducted at Fort Myer, a mile from the Pentagon.

 

Belvoir firefighter among first responders at Pentagon

"A training exercise in airport emergency operations at Fort Myer brought an assistant fire chief from Fort Belvoir to the Pentagon shortly after an aircraft crashed into its west wall.

As training officer for the Fort Belvoir Fire Department, Dodge has acquired an expertise on airport emergency operations because of the Belvoir department's responsibilities at Davison Army Airfield. The morning of Sept. 11 the 28-year veteran was conducting training for the Fort Myer crew on precisely that topic.

He and the class participants had heard during the first break in the training schedule about the first plane crash into one of the towers at the World Trade Center.
"We didn't have access to a TV or anything," he said. "So we just kept on going with the training program. All of a sudden we heard this BOOM! And we felt the building shake. Everyone just looked at each other like, 'what was that?' Then one of the fire units from Arlington came over the radio and said they saw an aircraft go down in the vicinity of the Pentagon."

Dodge said at that point everyone in the class just got up and left to get on the fire trucks. He jumped into a vehicle with Fort Myer's acting battalion commander, Dennis Gilroy.
Once inside the truck, the fire teams received the news an aircraft had crashed into the Pentagon.

"The word was that the unit on the ground [the helipad firefighters who are part of the Fort Myer Fire Department] were involved," Dodge said. "That didn't sound too good. When they say involved, it meant they were a part of the crash.

"We were one of the very first ones there," Dodge said, "aside from the crew that was already positioned at the Pentagon.

He said at that point, something caught his attention.
"I saw one the guys from Fort Myer was trying to get as much equipment as possible off the crash truck parked at the helipad area," said Dodge, whose father retired from the Air Force following his last assignment at the Pentagon.
"The crash truck [stationed at the Pentagon] was engulfed in flames, and they were trying to save what they could." - MDW (10/04/01)

 

Local heroes: FMMC fire department reflects on attacks

"The Fort Myer Military Community Fire Department had three men on the scene at the Pentagon when the attack occurred. In a matter of minutes, the rest of the team from Fort Myer joined the three men.

The FMMC fire department is responsible for the landings and take-offs at the Pentagon heliport. The department sends three men to the Pentagon each day to cover the flights, according to FMMC Fire Chief Charles Campbell.

While the three men were at the Pentagon, the majority of the men from the department were in an airport rescue firefighters class in the Education Center at Fort Myer.

Immediately, the firemen got their equipment and went to the Pentagon to aid the victims.

The ride to the Pentagon took about four minutes, William Harris, a Fort Myer fire department sergeant, said. Harris was the driver of Engine 161." - DC Military (11/02/01)

 

FMMC firefighters respond to terrorist action at Pentagon

"Fort Myer, located approximately a mile from the Pentagon..." - DC Military (09/14/01)

 

(See also:  April 23, 2001 - Fort Myer conducts a "Force Protection Exercise"; September 5, 2001 - Fort Myer and McNair implement "full access control")


 


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   23:26:40 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#425. To: buckeroo (#418)

Prove it.

Posted the links already. Prove that the imposters were really him.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   23:27:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#426. To: Eric Stratton (#419)

You're a fool if you believe that, an honest to goodness fucking rube!

Can you counter the perspective with FACTS as opposed to emotional trauma and silly accusations pointed at me?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:28:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#427. To: AGAviator (#413)

The October 2004 message is entirely consistent with Bin Laden interviews and fatwahs given throughout the 1990's, including statements he made after the twin bombings of US Embassies in Africa, and an attack on a US base in Saudi Arabia.

Bullshit. Each of the four announcements from him after the 9/11 attacks, up till the end of 2001, denounced the attacks and he stressed that he did not have anything to do with them.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   23:29:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#428. To: buckeroo (#423)

I am happy you have a laff a minute. Now, isn't a bit late for you to be up at this hour? Scurry along and have a nice hot cup of cocoa before beddy-bye. Sweet-dreams.

Sure, I had a LAUGH (not a "laff"). That, along with some of your other utterances about how the government wouldn't murder innocent people, is some of the dumbest stuff I have ever seen posted. Comical but for the fact that people actually have been murdered by the government you seem to believe is incapable of such.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-11   23:30:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#429. To: Eric Stratton (#390)

it was for the members of the liar movement that packages of tooth picks have instructions printed on them.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-11   23:33:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#430. To: buckeroo (#426)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:33:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#431. To: IRTorqued (#429)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:34:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#432. To: AGAviator (#407)

There are radio transcripts of fighters being instructed en route to get there and "I don't care how many windows you break," i.e. fly supersonic which was a complete departure from previous regulations.

Scrambled at 9:24, arrived at 9:49, distance is 130 miles.

25 minutes to fly 130 miles...

25 minutes * 1 hr / 60 minutes = 25/60 hr = .417 hours

130 miles/ .417 hours = 312 mph

Even if they were airborne at 9:30, they'd have 19 minutes of flight time, where

19/60 = .317

130 miles / .317 hours = 410 mph

So there Mr. BS, you are FULL OF SHIT. And you claim you're a pilot, HAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-11   23:37:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#433. To: James Deffenbach (#428)

That, along with some of your other utterances about how the government wouldn't murder innocent people

Please remember, the "missions" are set by the president supported by Congress (all of which are elected by the PEOPLE); the missions sometimes involve death as in a war. I should know, being a Vietnam vet.

Then again, I agree that many of those same missions are WRONG. I admit it on my webpage (click on my handle)....

But, there is no clandestine group setting bombs killing innocent women and children here in America formed by any agency of the US government. You are a fool to believe that stuff.... now scurry along, have your cocoa ... and don't forget to peepee before bed. And change your depends!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:38:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#434. To: Eric Stratton (#430)

I've done that, can you please do some fucking independent research!

Sounds as if all you've done is gobbled up every bit of "official" party line bullshit was available.

Look, quit wasting my time!

Have your last post and let's call this thread. f

I will say this, if you cannot see the connections between the state of the U.S. today and 9/11, then you aren't very bright or simply haven't done any serious independent homework, and unfortunately for you I'm responsible for neither.

Point a hotlink for my viewing pleasure about your "FACTS."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:40:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#435. To: buckeroo (#433)

Waco. Ruby Ridge. Terry Yeakey. Gordon Kahl. Any of those ring any bells with you?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-11   23:41:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#436. To: buckeroo (#434)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-11   23:45:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#437. To: FormerLurker (#402)

had they done that it would have screwed up the plan totally requiring a rewrite of the talking points for the members of the liar movement and as it is right now only complete morons believe the official fairy tale told by the liar movement to the point that only members of the liar movement believe the talking points fed to them by the government.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-11   23:47:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#438. To: James Deffenbach (#428)

some of the dumbest stuff I have ever seen posted

LOL!


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-11   23:47:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#439. To: James Deffenbach (#435)

Waco. Ruby Ridge.

We have discussed this before. The explosive nature of each case was not directly authorized and the cowboys (ATF) went after glamour to bring in a mission based on presidential orders.

The outcome was tragic. And lets say, the same scenario from your perspective was in effect for a moment.... why wasn't there a quick kill with no witnesses as in the same cases you cite?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:48:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#440. To: Eric Stratton (#436) (Edited)

No hotlink for me before your beddy-bye? Geewhiz........... maybe tomorrow or the next day or sometime in the remote future.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-11   23:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#441. To: buckeroo (#439)

We have discussed this before. The explosive nature of each case was not directly authorized and the cowboys (ATF) went after glamour to bring in a mission based on presidential orders.

And the president and the "cowboys" are not part of the lily white government that doesn't murder the innocent. I told you before, you better lay off that Sterno, it's gonna kill you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-11   23:59:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#442. To: James Deffenbach (#441)

There was no such thing as a pre-determined plan, particularly for the actual outcome; in fact it has been shown through Congressional inquiry that there was no contingency plans in either of these ATF planned extravaganzas.

It was seat of the pants "shotgun" planning which has been sharply curtained.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   0:03:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#443. To: Eric Stratton (#431)

and why one of the warnings of hair blow dryer use is do not use while sleeping.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-12   0:06:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#444. To: buckeroo (#442)

it has been shown through Congressional inquiry

Oh well, guess that settles that. The government investigates itself and finds no intentional wrongdoing, just unfortunate accidents and coincidences. Because they love us and would never, ever harm us. And wouldn't take away our rights either. Oh no 'cause they love us too much. uh huh.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   0:08:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#445. To: James Deffenbach (#441)

I told you before, you better lay off that Sterno, it's gonna kill you.

I think you had better re-evaluate a few isolated cases of uncontrolled police actions before claiming that the government on any level seeks pre-planned mass destruction in terms of human life, physical assets and later plausible impact of the same.

What you accuse me of, I am thinking you are reflecting upon yourself with a looking-glass held up by both of your hands.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   0:08:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#446. To: James Deffenbach (#433)

bucky is fearful of sleep, something about waking up with a quarter in his teeth.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-12   0:09:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#447. To: James Deffenbach (#444)

The government investigates itself and finds no intentional wrongdoing, just unfortunate accidents and coincidences.

That is not true.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   0:09:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#448. To: buckeroo (#445)

You're making even less sense than usual. Maybe you should get a nap--'bout two or three weeks worth might do it--and see if you can make some sense.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   0:10:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#449. To: James Deffenbach (#448)

You're making even less sense than usual. Maybe you should get a nap--'bout two or three weeks worth might do it--and see if you can make some sense.

Because you suck the shit you accuse me of?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   0:10:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#450. To: IRTorqued (#446)

bucky is fearful of sleep, something about waking up with a quarter in his teeth.

That happen a lot, does it?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   0:11:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#451. To: buckeroo (#449)

Because you suck the shit you accuse me of?

Not that I drink Sterno but if I did why would that cause you to make less sense than usual? Which, even on a good day ain't that great.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   0:12:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#452. To: James Deffenbach (#450)

the way he snapped about it one could believe it is an every morning occurrence.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-12   0:14:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#453. To: AGAviator (#398)

Origially you challenged me to produce a link about 20,000 gallons of fuel feeding uncontrolled WTC 7 fires for hours. Then you tried to protect your pathetic little bottom by saying "Even if true" at the end.

Wrong asswipe. You stated that the towers were burning for hours with tens of thousands of (something, I assumed gallons) of diesel fuel, where there were only about 3500 gallons of JET fuel available for the fires. The jet fuel only burned for several minutes before it was exhausted.

I say again. The WTC 7 building fires were fed by over 20,000 gallons of fuel for emergency power supplies.

So prove me wrong, little faggot, and stop your blithering about anybody else but you and your fellow k00ks being liars and discredited claims. And keep your fagtalk to your fellow circlejerks.

As far as WTC7, that's not what I was talking about. HOWEVER, the fire THERE wouldn't have caused a symmetrical collapse at free fall speed either.

Fucktard.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   0:22:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#454. To: buckeroo (#434)

Buck. Why did the planes take a joyride out to ohio? It seems that they weren't worried about being intercepted.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-12   0:23:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#455. To: James Deffenbach, AVAviator (#451)

No facts, no supporting data, just ad hominem attacks. Why not go to beddy-bye land and dream of your Twofer_Faerie?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   0:31:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#456. To: buckeroo (#440)

That boy needs to he harpooned

Where's Queequeg when you need him?

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   0:45:14 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#457. To: James Deffenbach (#455)

it would appear the second in command of the resident liar movement wants your brain activity at a level closer to his which on occasion peaks slightly above flat line.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-12   0:47:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#458. To: Flintlock (#456)

LOL

I presented a "Over the Rainbow" song for Eric. I wish him well.

Are you going to say that the 9-11 terrorist bombing is a direct result of and about the US government?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   0:48:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#459. To: buckeroo (#458)

Are you going to say that the 9-11 terrorist bombing is a direct result of and about the US government?

Absolutely!

911 was clearly an inside job. I read the PNAC documents years ago. The neocons would have done ANYTHING to get us involved in a land war in the ME and they did.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   1:01:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#460. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#455)

Why not go to beddy-bye

Buck wants everybody to go to sleep because he's tired and wants the last word.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:12:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#461. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#432) (Edited)

Complete Summary of 911 NORAD Communications - Not CT Selective Edit Cut & Paste

Executive Summary: Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the World Trade Center at 8:46 a.m. Of all four hijacked aircraft, this nine minutes was the most time that NEADS had to respond

The last hijacking to occur in the United States was in 1991. [5] Since then, the air marshal program had been downsized, with only 33 in 2001 - none on domestic duty on 9/11.[6]

The protocols in place on 9/11 for the FAA and NORAD to respond to a hijacking presumed that:

The hijacked aircraft would be readily identifiable and would not attempt to disappear;
There would be time to address the problem through the appropriate FAA and NORAD chains of command; and
Hijacking would take the traditional form: that is, it would not be a suicide hijacking designed to convert the aircraft into a guided missile.
When NORAD fighter jets were "scrambled", that meant that they were to "establish a presence in the air.
The pilots are trained to
Trail the hijacked plane at a distance of about five miles, out of sight, following it until, presumably, it lands.
If necessary, they can show themselves, flying up close to establish visual contact, and,
If the situation demands, maneuver to force the plane to land."
[7]

9/11

On the morning of 9/11, the existing protocol for hijackings was unsuited in every respect for what was about to happen. The defense of U.S. airspace depended on close interaction between two federal agencies: the FAA and the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD).

The FAA's Boston Center and other air traffic control centers alerted NEADS of the four hijackings, though with little or no advance notice for NEADS and NORAD to mount a response.

At most, NEADS had 9 minutes advance notice of the first hijacking (American Airlines Flight 11)

NEADS was notified about United Airlines Flight 175 at 9:03 a.m. - the same time that it crashed into the World Trade Center's south tower.

NEADS had four minutes advance notice of American Airlines Flight 77. NEADS was notified about United Airlines Flight 93 at 10:07 a.m. - after it already had crashed.

American Airlines Flight 11
Main article: American Airlines Flight 11

NEADS received notification of the hijacking 9 minutes before American Airlines Flight 11 crashed into the World Trade Center at 8:46 a.m. Of all four hijacked aircraft, this nine minutes was the most time that NEADS had to respond.

Although the Boston Center air traffic controller realized at an early stage that there was something wrong with American 11, he did not immediately interpret the plane's failure to respond as a sign that it had been hijacked. At 8:14, when the flight failed to heed his instruction to climb to 35,000 feet, the controller repeatedly tried to raise the flight. He reached out to the pilot on the emergency frequency. Though there was no response, he kept trying to contact the aircraft.

At 8:21, American 11 turned off its transponder, immediately degrading the information available about the aircraft. The controller told his supervisor that he thought something was seriously wrong with the plane, although neither suspected a hijacking. The supervisor instructed the controller to follow standard procedures for handling a "no radio" aircraft.

The controller checked to see if American Airlines could establish communication with American 11. He became even more concerned as its route changed, moving into another sector's airspace. Controllers immediately began to move aircraft out of its path, and asked other aircraft in the vicinity to look for American 11.108

At 8:24:38, the following transmission came from American 11:

We have some planes. Just stay quiet, and you'll be okay. We are returning to the airport.

The controller only heard something unintelligible; he did not hear the specific words "we have some planes." The next transmission came seconds later:

Nobody move. Everything will be okay. If you try to make any moves, you'll endanger yourself and the airplane. Just stay quiet.

The controller told us that he then knew it was a hijacking. He alerted his supervisor, who assigned another controller to assist him. He redoubled his efforts to ascertain the flight's altitude. Because the controller didn't understand the initial transmission, the manager of Boston Center instructed his quality assurance specialist to "pull the tape" of the radio transmission, listen to it closely, and report back.

Between 8:25 and 8:32, in accordance with the FAA protocol, Boston Center managers started notifying their chain of command that American 11 had been hijacked. At 8:28, Boston Center called the Command Center in Herndon to advise that it believed American 11 had been hijacked and was heading toward New York Center's airspace.

By this time, American 11 had taken a dramatic turn to the south. At 8:32, the Command Center passed word of a possible hijacking to the Operations Center at FAA headquarters. The duty officer replied that security personnel at headquarters had just begun discussing the apparent hijack on a conference call with the New England regional office. FAA headquarters began to follow the hijack protocol but did not contact the NMCC to request a fighter escort.

The Herndon Command Center immediately established a teleconference between Boston, New York, and Cleveland Centers so that Boston Center could help the others understand what was happening.

At 8:34, the Boston Center controller received a third transmission from American 11:

Nobody move please. We are going back to the airport. Don't try to make any stupid moves.

In the succeeding minutes, controllers were attempting to ascertain the altitude of the southbound flight.

Military Notification and Response
Boston Center did not follow the protocol in seeking military assistance through the prescribed chain of command. In addition to notifications within the FAA, Boston Center took the initiative, at 8:34, to contact the military through the FAA's Cape Cod facility. The center also tried to contact a former alert site in Atlantic City, unaware it had been phased out. At 8:37:52, Boston Center reached NEADS. This was the first notification received by the military-at any level-that American 11 had been hijacked:

FAA: Hi. Boston Center TMU [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out. NEADS (Jeremy Powell): Is this real-world or exercise?

FAA: No, this is not an exercise, not a test

NEADS ordered to battle stations the two F-15 alert aircraft at Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Massachusetts, 153 miles away from New York City. The air defense of America began with this call.

At NEADS, the report of the hijacking was relayed immediately to Battle Commander Colonel Robert Marr. After ordering the Otis fighters to battle stations, Colonel Marr phoned Major General Larry Arnold, commanding general of the First Air Force and NORAD's Continental Region. Marr sought authorization to scramble the Otis fighters. General Arnold later recalled instructing Marr to "go ahead and scramble them, and we'll get authorities later." General Arnold then called NORAD headquarters to report.

At this point, NEADS sees this as an ordinary hijacking until 8:39 a.m., with this exchange:

08:39:58 - (NEADS) WATSON: It's the inbound to J.F.K.?

FAA BOSTON CENTER: We—we don't know.

NEADS - WATSON: You don't know where he is at all?

FAA BOSTON CENTER: He's being hijacked. The pilot's having a hard time talking to the—I mean, we don't know. We don't know where he's goin'. He's heading towards Kennedy. He's—like I said, he's like 35 miles north of Kennedy now at 367 knots. We have no idea where he's goin' or what his intentions are.

NEADS - WATSON: If you could please give us a call and let us know—you know any information, that'd be great.

FAA BOSTON CENTER: Okay. Right now, I guess we're trying to work on—I guess there's been some threats in the cockpit. The pilot—

NEADS - WATSON: There's been what?! I'm sorry.

NEADS - UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Threat to the … ?

FAA BOSTON CENTER: We'll call you right back as soon as we know more info. At 8:40 am, someone at NEADS, who was listening in on this exchange, informs the rest of the room at NEADS, which ratchets up tensions.

NEADS - DOOLEY: O.K., he said threat to the cockpit! At this point, NEADS "tracker techs" still could not locate American Airlines Flight 11 on the radar.

"In order to find a hijacked airliner—or any airplane—military controllers need either the plane's beacon code (broadcast from an electronic transponder on board) or the plane's exact coordinates. When the hijackers on American 11 turned the beacon off, intentionally losing themselves in the dense sea of airplanes already flying over the U.S. that morning (a tactic that would be repeated, with some variations, on all the hijacked flights), the NEADS controllers were at a loss."

"You would see thousands of green blips on your scope," Nasypany said, "and now you have to pick and choose. Which is the bad guy out there? Which is the hijacked aircraft? And without that information from F.A.A., it's a needle in a haystack."

At this point in the morning, more than 3,000 jetliners are already in the air over the continental United States, and the Boston controller's direction— "35 miles north of Kennedy"—doesn't help the NEADS controllers at all." [1]

Otis F-15 fighters are scrambled
Though, NEADS was still unable to locate American Airlines Flight 11, Major Nasypany orders the fighters from Otis to scramble anyway.

08:44:59 - (OTIS) FOX: M.C.C. [Mission Crew Commander], I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination—

NEADS - NASYPANY: O.K., I'm gonna give you the Z point [coordinate]. It's just north of—New York City.

OTIS - FOX: I got this lat long, 41-15, 74-36, or 73-46.

NEADS - NASYPANY: Head 'em in that direction.

OTIS - FOX: Copy that.

NEADS did not know where to send the alert fighter aircraft, and the officer directing the fighters pressed for more information: "I don't know where I'm scrambling these guys to. I need a direction, a destination." Because the hijackers had turned off the plane's transponder, NEADS personnel continued searching their radar scopes during the next few minutes for the primary radar return.

At 08:46:36, Major Nasypany speaks with Colonel Marr, the battle commander and Nasypany's superior.

NASYPANY: Hi, sir. O.K., what—what we're doing, we're tryin' to locate this guy. We can't find him via I.F.F. [the Identification Friend or Foe system]. What we're gonna do, we're gonna hit up every track within a 25-mile radius of this Z-point [coordinate] that we put on the scope. Twenty-nine thousand [feet] heading 1-9-0 [east]. We're just gonna do—we're gonna try to find this guy. They can't find him. There's supposedly been threats to the cockpit. So we're just doing the thing … [off-mic conversation] True. And probably right now with what's going on in the cockpit it's probably really crazy. So, it probably needs to—that will simmer down and we'll probably get some better information.

American 11 struck the North Tower at 8:46. Shortly after 8:50, while NEADS personnel were still trying to locate the flight, word reached them that a plane had hit the World Trade Center.

At 8:51 a.m., NEADS learned from the FAA Boston Center that a plane crashed into the World Trade Center.

08:51:11 - ROUNTREE: A plane just hit the World Trade Center.

WATSON: What?
WATSON: Being hit by an aircraft?

NEW YORK CENTER: I'm sorry?!

WATSON: Being hit by an aircraft.

NEW YORK CENTER: You're kidding.

WATSON: It's on the world news.

At this point, in regards to the Otis scramble of fighter jets, Nasypany was thinking "I'm not gonna stop what I initially started with scrambling Otis— getting Otis over New York City." [2]

Radar data show the Otis fighters were airborne at 8:53. Lacking a target, they were vectored toward military-controlled airspace off the Long Island coast. To avoid New York area air traffic and uncertain about what to do, the fighters were brought down to military airspace to "hold as needed. "From 9:09 to 9:13, the Otis fighters stayed in this holding pattern.

At 8:55 a.m., NEADS spoke with Boston Center to confirm that American Airlines Flight 11 did indeed crash into the World Trade Center.

08:55:18 - BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yeah, he crashed into the World Trade Center.
ROUNTREE: That is the aircraft that crashed into the World Trade Center?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yup. Disregard the—disregard the tail number [given earlier for American 11].
ROUNTREE: Disregard the tail number? He did crash into the World Trade Center?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): That's—that's what we believe, yes.
Though, there was still some confusion at NEADS about what had crashed into the World Trade Center.

08:56:31 - MALE NEADS TECH: I never heard them say American Airlines Flight 11 hit the World Trade Center. I heard it was a civilian aircraft.
Boston Center believed it was American Airlines Flight 11, but not with enough certainty to give confirmation to NEADS.

DOOLEY (to Boston): Master Sergeant Dooley here. We need to have—are you giving confirmation that American 11 was the one—
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): No, we're not gonna confirm that at this time. We just know an aircraft crashed in and …
DOOLEY: You—are you—can you say—is anyone up there tracking primary on this guy still?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): No. The last [radar sighting] we have was about 15 miles east of J.F.K., or eight miles east of J.F.K. was our last primary hit.
He did slow down in speed. The primary that we had, it slowed down below— around to 300 knots.
DOOLEY: And then you lost 'em?
BOSTON CENTER (Scoggins): Yeah, and then we lost 'em.

Scoggins explained to Vanity Fair "that American Airlines refused to confirm for several hours that its plane had hit the tower." This caused uncertainty and complicated the situation for NEADS and Boston Center. The airlines have the ability to monitor the position of their own aircraft and to communicate with the aircraft. Vanity Fair explained that [the airlines] "routinely go into information lockdown in a crisis."

“ In summary, NEADS received notice of the hijacking nine minutes before it struck the North Tower. That nine minutes' notice before impact was the most the military would receive of any of the four hijackings. ”

United Airlines Flight 175
Main article: United Airlines Flight 175

NEADS was first notified about United Airlines Flight 175 at 9:03 a.m., the same time that it crashed into the World Trade Center's south tower. They had zero advanced notice.

One of the last transmissions from United Airlines Flight 175 is, in retrospect, chilling. By 8:40, controllers at the FAA's New York Center were seeking information on American 11. At approximately 8:42, shortly after entering New York Center's airspace, the pilot of United 175 broke in with the following transmission:

UAL 175: New York UAL 175 heavy.
FAA: UAL 175 go ahead.
UAL 175: Yeah. We figured we'd wait to go to your center. Ah, we heard a suspicious transmission on our departure out of Boston, ah, with someone, ah, it sounded like someone keyed the mikes and said ah everyone ah stay in your seats.
FAA: Oh, okay. I'll pass that along over here.
Minutes later, United 175 turned southwest without clearance from air traffic control. At 8:47, seconds after the impact of American 11, United 175's transponder code changed, and then changed again. These changes were not noticed for several minutes, however, because the same New York Center controller was assigned to both American 11 and United 175.The controller knew American 11 was hijacked; he was focused on searching for it after the aircraft disappeared at 8:46.

At 8:48, while the controller was still trying to locate American 11, a New York Center manager provided the following report on a Command Center teleconference about American 11:

Manager, New York Center: Okay. This is New York Center. We're watching the airplane. I also had conversation with American Airlines, and they've told us that they believe that one of their stewardesses was stabbed and that there are people in the cockpit that have control of the aircraft, and that's all the information they have right now.
The New York Center controller and manager were unaware that American 11 had already crashed.

At 8:51, the controller noticed the transponder change from United 175 and tried to contact the aircraft. There was no response. Beginning at 8:52, the controller made repeated attempts to reach the crew of United 175. Still no response. The controller checked his radio equipment and contacted another controller at 8:53, saying that "we may have a hijack" and that he could not find the aircraft.

Another commercial aircraft in the vicinity then radioed in with "reports over the radio of a commuter plane hitting the World Trade Center." The controller spent the next several minutes handing off the other flights on his scope to other controllers and moving aircraft out of the way of the unidentified aircraft (believed to be United 175) as it moved southwest and then turned northeast toward New York City.

At about 8:55, the controller in charge notified a New York Center manager that she believed United 175 had also been hijacked. The manager tried to notify the regional managers and was told that they were discussing a hijacked aircraft (presumably American 11) and refused to be disturbed. At 8:58, the New York Center controller searching for United 175 told another New York controller "we might have a hijack over here, two of them."

Between 9:01 and 9:02, a manager from New York Center told the Command Center in Herndon:

Manager, New York Center: We have several situations going on here. It's escalating big, big time. We need to get the military involved with us.. . . We're, we're involved with something else, we have other aircraft that may have a similar situation going on here.
The "other aircraft" referred to by New York Center was United 175. Evidence indicates that this conversation was the only notice received by either FAA headquarters or the Herndon Command Center prior to the second crash that there had been a second hijacking.

While the Command Center was told about this "other aircraft" at 9:01, New York Center contacted New York terminal approach control and asked for help in locating United 175.

Terminal: I got somebody who keeps coasting but it looks like he's going into one of the small airports down there.
Center: Hold on a second. I'm trying to bring him up here and get you-There he is right there. Hold on.
Terminal: Got him just out of 9,500-9,000 now.
Center: Do you know who he is?
Terminal: We're just, we just we don't know who he is.We're just picking him up now. Center (at 9:02): Alright. Heads up man, it looks like another one coming in.
The controllers observed the plane in a rapid descent; the radar data terminated over Lower Manhattan. At 9:03, United 175 crashed into the South Tower.

Meanwhile, a manager from Boston Center reported that they had deciphered what they had heard in one of the first hijacker transmissions from American 11:

Boston Center: Hey . . . you still there?
New England Region: Yes, I am.
Boston Center: . . . as far as the tape, Bobby seemed to think the guy said that "we have planes." Now, I don't know if it was because it was the accent, or if there's more than one, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna reconfirm that for you, and I'll get back to you real quick. Okay?
New England Region: Appreciate it.
Unidentified Female Voice: They have what?
Boston Center: Planes, as in plural.
Boston Center: It sounds like, we're talking to New York, that there's another one aimed at the World Trade Center.
New England Region: There's another aircraft?
Boston Center: A second one just hit the Trade Center.
New England Region: Okay. Yeah, we gotta get-we gotta alert the military real quick on this.

Boston Center immediately advised the New England Region that it was going to stop all departures at airports under its control. At 9:05, Boston Center confirmed for both the FAA Command Center and the New England Region that the hijackers aboard American 11 said "we have planes." At the same time, NewYork Center declared "ATC zero"-meaning that aircraft were not permitted to depart from, arrive at, or travel through New York Center's airspace until further notice.

Within minutes of the second impact, Boston Center instructed its controllers to inform all aircraft in its airspace of the events in New York and to advise aircraft to heighten cockpit security. Boston Center asked the Herndon Command Center to issue a similar cockpit security alert nationwide. We have found no evidence to suggest that the Command Center acted on this request or issued any type of cockpit security alert.

Military Notification and Response
“ The first indication that the NORAD air defenders had of the second hijacked aircraft, United 175, came in a phone call from New York Center to NEADS at 9:03. The notice came at about the time the plane was hitting the South Tower. ”

By 9:08, the mission crew commander at NEADS learned of the second explosion at the World Trade Center and decided against holding the fighters in military airspace away from Manhattan:

Mission Crew Commander, NEADS: This is what I foresee that we probably need to do. We need to talk to FAA. We need to tell 'em if this stuff is gonna keep on going, we need to take those fighters, put 'em over Manhattan. That's best thing, that's the best play right now. So coordinate with the FAA. Tell 'em if there's more out there, which we don't know, let's get 'em over Manhattan. At least we got some kind of play.
The FAA cleared the airspace. Radar data show that at 9:13, when the Otis fighters were about 115 miles away from the city, the fighters exited their holding pattern and set a course direct for Manhattan. They arrived in New York City at 9:25 (22 minutes after Flight 175 crashed) and established a combat air patrol (CAP) over the city.

Because the Otis fighters had expended a great deal of fuel in flying first to military airspace and then to New York, the battle commanders were concerned about refueling. NEADS considered scrambling alert fighters from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to New York, to provide backup. The Langley fighters were placed on battle stations at 9:09. NORAD had no indication that any other plane had been hijacked.

American Airlines Flight 77
Main article: American Airlines Flight 77

“ NEADS was informed about American Airlines Flight 77 at 9:34 a.m., four minutes before it crashed into the Pentagon. ”

American 77 began deviating from its flight plan at 8:54, with a slight turn toward the south. Two minutes later, it disappeared completely from radar at Indianapolis Center, which was controlling the flight.

The controller tracking American 77 told us he noticed the aircraft turning to the southwest, and then saw the data disappear. The controller looked for primary radar returns. He searched along the plane's projected flight path and the airspace to the southwest where it had started to turn. No primary targets appeared. He tried the radios, first calling the aircraft directly, then the air-line. Again there was nothing. At this point, the Indianapolis controller had no knowledge of the situation in New York. He did not know that other aircraft had been hijacked. He believed American 77 had experienced serious electrical or mechanical failure, or both, and was gone.

Shortly after 9:00, Indianapolis Center started notifying other agencies that American 77 was missing and had possibly crashed. At 9:08, Indianapolis Center asked Air Force Search and Rescue at Langley Air Force Base to look for a downed aircraft. The center also contacted the West Virginia State Police and asked whether any reports of a downed aircraft had been received. At 9:09, it reported the loss of contact to the FAA regional center, which passed this information to FAA headquarters at 9:24.

By 9:20, Indianapolis Center learned that there were other hijacked aircraft, and began to doubt its initial assumption that American 77 had crashed. A discussion of this concern between the manager at Indianapolis and the Command Center in Herndon prompted it to notify some FAA field facilities that American 77 was lost. By 9:21, the Command Center, some FAA field facilities, and American Airlines had started to search for American 77. They feared it had been hijacked. At 9:25, the Command Center advised FAA headquarters of the situation.

The failure to find a primary radar return for American 77 led us to investigate this issue further. Radar reconstructions performed after 9/11 reveal that FAA radar equipment tracked the flight from the moment its transponder was turned off at 8:56. But for 8 minutes and 13 seconds, between 8:56 and 9:05, this primary radar information on American 77 was not displayed to controllers at Indianapolis Center. The reasons are technical, arising from the way the software processed radar information, as well as from poor primary radar coverage where American 77 was flying.

According to the radar reconstruction, American 77 reemerged as a primary target on Indianapolis Center radar scopes at 9:05, east of its last known position. The target remained in Indianapolis Center's airspace for another six minutes, then crossed into the western portion of Washington Center's airspace at 9:10. As Indianapolis Center continued searching for the aircraft, two managers and the controller responsible for American 77 looked to the west and southwest along the flight's projected path, not east-where the aircraft was now heading. Managers did not instruct other controllers at Indianapolis Center to turn on their primary radar coverage to join in the search for American 77.

In sum, Indianapolis Center never saw Flight 77 turn around. By the time it reappeared in primary radar coverage, controllers had either stopped looking for the aircraft because they thought it had crashed or were looking toward the west. Although the Command Center learned Flight 77 was missing, neither it nor FAA headquarters issued an all points bulletin to surrounding centers to search for primary radar targets. American 77 traveled undetected for 36 minutes on a course heading due east for Washington, D.C.

By 9:25, FAA's Herndon Command Center and FAA headquarters knew two aircraft had crashed into the World Trade Center. They knew American 77 was lost. At least some FAA officials in Boston Center and the New England Region knew that a hijacker on board American 11 had said "we have some planes." Concerns over the safety of other aircraft began to mount. A manager at the Herndon Command Center asked FAA headquarters if they wanted to order a "nationwide ground stop." While this was being discussed by executives at FAA headquarters, the Command Center ordered one at 9:25.

The Command Center kept looking for American 77. At 9:21, it advised the Dulles terminal control facility, and Dulles urged its controllers to look for primary targets. At 9:32, they found one. Several of the Dulles controllers "observed a primary radar target tracking eastbound at a high rate of speed" and notified Reagan National Airport. FAA personnel at both Reagan National and Dulles airports notified the Secret Service. The aircraft's identity or type was unknown.

Reagan National controllers then vectored an unarmed National Guard C130H cargo aircraft, which had just taken off en route to Minnesota, to identify and follow the suspicious aircraft. The C-130H pilot spotted it, identified it as a Boeing 757, attempted to follow its path, and at 9:38, seconds after impact, reported to the control tower: "looks like that aircraft crashed into the Pentagon sir."

Military Notification and Response
NORAD heard nothing about the search for American 77. Instead, the NEADS air defenders heard renewed reports about a plane that no longer existed: American 11.

Scoggins explained to Vanity Fair, "When we phoned United [after the second tower was hit], they confirmed that United 175 was down, and I think they confirmed that within two or three minutes," Scoggins, the go-to guy at Boston Center for all things military, later told me. "With American Airlines, we could never confirm if it was down or not, so that left doubt in our minds."

At 9:21, NEADS received a report from the FAA:

FAA: Military, Boston Center. I just had a report that American 11 is still in the air, and it's on its way towards-heading towards Washington.
NEADS: Okay. American 11 is still in the air?
FAA: Yes.
NEADS: On its way towards Washington?
FAA: That was another-it was evidently another aircraft that hit the tower.
That's the latest report we have.
NEADS: Okay.
FAA: I'm going to try to confirm an ID for you, but I would assume he's somewhere over, uh, either New Jersey or somewhere further south.
NEADS: Okay. So American 11 isn't the hijack at all then, right?
FAA: No, he is a hijack.
NEADS: He-American 11 is a hijack?
FAA: Yes.
NEADS: And he's heading into Washington?
FAA: Yes. This could be a third aircraft.

The mention of a "third aircraft" was not a reference to American 77.There was confusion at that moment in the FAA. Two planes had struck the World Trade Center, and Boston Center had heard from FAA headquarters in Washington that American 11 was still airborne. We have been unable to identify the source of this mistaken FAA information.

Langley jets scrambled
The NEADS technician who took this call from the FAA immediately passed the word to the mission crew commander, who reported to the NEADS battle commander:

Mission Crew Commander, NEADS: Okay, uh, American Airlines is still airborne. Eleven, the first guy, he's heading towards Washington. Okay? I think we need to scramble Langley right now. And I'm gonna take the fighters from Otis, try to chase this guy down if I can find him. After consulting with NEADS command, the crew commander issued the order at 9:23:

Okay . . . scramble Langley. Head them towards the Washington area.. . . [I]f they're there then we'll run on them.. . .These guys are smart.
That order was processed and transmitted to Langley Air Force Base at 9:24.
Radar data show the Langley fighters airborne at 9:30. NEADS decided to keep the Otis fighters over New York. The heading of the Langley fighters was adjusted to send them to the Baltimore area. The mission crew commander explained to us that the purpose was to position the Langley fighters between the reported southbound American 11 and the nation's capital.

Despite the orders to head towards the Washington/Baltimore area, the Langley aircraft headed due east, out to sea "into a military-training airspace called Whiskey 386." The Langley pilots were not briefed as to why they were being scrambled, so they followed their training flight plan, which was premised on Cold War threats. They did not receive information on distance to the target or the target's location when they were ordered to scramble.

At the suggestion of the Boston Center's military liaison, NEADS contacted the FAA's Washington Center to ask about American 11.

In the course of the conversation, a Washington Center manager informed NEADS:

09:34:01 - WASHINGTON CENTER: Now, let me tell you this. I—I'll—we've been looking. We're—also lost American 77— WATSON: American 77?
DOOLEY: American 77's lost—
WATSON: Where was it proposed to head, sir?
WASHINGTON CENTER: Okay, he was going to L.A. also—

WATSON: From where, sir?
WASHINGTON CENTER: I think he was from Boston also. Now let me tell you this story here. Indianapolis Center was working this guy—
WATSON: What guy?
WASHINGTON CENTER: American 77, at flight level 3-5-0 [35,000 feet]. However, they lost radar with him. They lost contact with him. They lost everything.
And they don't have any idea where he is or what happened.
The time was 9:34. This was the first notice to the military that American 77 was missing.

If NEADS had not placed that call, the NEADS air defenders would have received no information whatsoever that the flight was even missing, although the FAA had been searching for it. No one at FAA headquarters ever asked for military assistance with American 77.

The FAA's Boston Center called NEADS and relayed the discovery about an unidentified aircraft closing in on Washington: "Latest report. Aircraft VFR [visual flight rules] six miles southeast of the White House. . . . Six, southwest. Six, southwest of the White House, deviating away."

This startling news prompted the mission crew commander at NEADS to take immediate control of the airspace to clear a flight path for the Langley fighters: "Okay, we're going to turn it . . . crank it up. . . . Run them to the White House."

He then discovered, to his surprise, that the Langley fighters were not headed north toward the Baltimore area as instructed, but east over the ocean. "I don't care how many windows you break," he said. "Damn it.. . . Okay. Push them back."

09:34:12 - NAVY A.T.C.: You've got [the fighters] moving east in airspace. Now you want 'em to go to Baltimore? HUCKABONE: Yes, sir. We're not gonna take 'em in Whiskey 386 [military training airspace over the ocean]. NAVY A.T.C.: O.K., once he goes to Baltimore, what are we supposed to do? HUCKABONE: Have him contact us on auxiliary frequency 2-3-4 decimal 6. Instead of taking handoffs to us and us handing 'em back, just tell Center they've got to go to Baltimore.
NAVY A.T.C.: All right, man. Stand by. We'll get back to you.
CITINO: What do you mean, "We'll get back to you"? Just do it!
HUCKABONE: I'm gonna choke that guy!
CITINO: Be very professional, Huck.
HUCKABONE: O.K.
CITINO: All right, Huck. Let's get our act together here.

After the 9:36 call to NEADS about the unidentified aircraft a few miles from the White House, the Langley fighters were ordered to Washington, D.C. Controllers at NEADS located an unknown primary radar track, but "it kind of faded" over Washington. The time was 9:38. The Pentagon had been struck by American 77 at 9:37:46.

The Langley fighters were about 150 miles away.

Delta Airlines Flight 1989
Right after the Pentagon was hit, NEADS learned of another possible hijacked aircraft. It was an aircraft that in fact had not been hijacked at all. After the second World Trade Center crash, Boston Center managers recognized that both aircraft were transcontinental 767 jetliners that had departed Logan Airport. Remembering the "we have some planes" remark, Boston Center guessed that Delta 1989 might also be hijacked. Boston Center called NEADS at 9:41 and identified Delta 1989, a 767 jet that had left Logan Airport for Las Vegas, as a possible hijack. NEADS warned the FAA's Cleveland Center to watch Delta 1989.The Command Center and FAA headquarters watched it too. During the course of the morning, there were multiple erroneous reports of hijacked aircraft. The report of American 11 heading south was the first; Delta 1989 was the second.

NEADS never lost track of Delta 1989, and even ordered fighter aircraft from Ohio and Michigan to intercept it. The flight never turned off its transponder. NEADS soon learned that the aircraft was not hijacked, and tracked Delta 1989 as it reversed course over Toledo, headed east, and landed in Cleveland. But another aircraft was heading toward Washington, an aircraft about which NORAD had heard nothing: United 93.

United Airlines Flight 93 Main article: United Airlines Flight 93
“ NEADS was notified about United Airlines Flight 93 at 10:07 a.m., after it already had crashed. ”

At 9:27, after having been in the air for 45 minutes, United 93 acknowledged a transmission from the Cleveland Center controller. This was the last normal contact the FAA had with the flight.

Less than a minute later, the Cleveland controller and the pilots of aircraft in the vicinity heard "a radio transmission of unintelligible sounds of possible screaming or a struggle from an unknown origin."

The controller responded, seconds later: "Somebody call Cleveland? "This was followed by a second radio transmission, with sounds of screaming. The Cleveland Center controllers began to try to identify the possible source of the transmissions, and noticed that United 93 had descended some 700 feet. The controller attempted again to raise United 93 several times, with no response. At 9:30, the controller began to poll the other flights on his frequency to determine if they had heard the screaming; several said they had.

At 9:32, a third radio transmission came over the frequency: "Keep remaining sitting. We have a bomb on board." The controller understood, but chose to respond: "Calling Cleveland Center, you're unreadable. Say again, slowly." He notified his supervisor, who passed the notice up the chain of command. By 9:34, word of the hijacking had reached FAA headquarters.

FAA headquarters had by this time established an open line of communication with the Command Center at Herndon and instructed it to poll all its centers about suspect aircraft. The Command Center executed the request and, a minute later, Cleveland Center reported that "United 93 may have a bomb on board. "At 9:34, the Command Center relayed the information concerning United 93 to FAA headquarters. At approximately 9:36, Cleveland advised the Command Center that it was still tracking United 93 and specifically inquired whether someone had requested the military to launch fighter aircraft to intercept the aircraft. Cleveland even told the Command Center it was prepared to contact a nearby military base to make the request. The Command Center told Cleveland that FAA personnel well above them in the chain of command had to make the decision to seek military assistance and were working on the issue.

Between 9:34 and 9:38, the Cleveland controller observed United 93 climbing to 40,700 feet and immediately moved several aircraft out its way. The controller continued to try to contact United 93, and asked whether the pilot could confirm that he had been hijacked. There was no response.

Then, at 9:39, a fourth radio transmission was heard from United 93:

Ziad Jarrah: Uh, this is the captain. Would like you all to remain seated. There is a bomb on board and are going back to the airport, and to have our demands [unintelligible]. Please remain quiet. The controller responded: "United 93, understand you have a bomb on board. Go ahead." The flight did not respond.

From 9:34 to 10:08, a Command Center facility manager provided frequent updates to Acting Deputy Administrator Monte Belger and other executives at FAA headquarters as United 93 headed toward Washington, D.C. At 9:41, Cleveland Center lost United 93's transponder signal. The controller located it on primary radar, matched its position with visual sightings from other aircraft, and tracked the flight as it turned east, then south.

At 9:42, the Command Center learned from news reports that a plane had struck the Pentagon. The Command Center's national operations manager, Ben Sliney, ordered all FAA facilities to instruct all aircraft to land at the nearest airport. This was an unprecedented order. The air traffic control system handled it with great skill, as about 4,500 commercial and general aviation aircraft soon landed without incident.

At 9:46 the Command Center updated FAA headquarters that United 93 was now "twenty-nine minutes out of Washington, D.C."

At 9:49, 13 minutes after Cleveland Center had asked about getting military help, the Command Center suggested that someone at headquarters should decide whether to request military assistance:

FAA Headquarters: They're pulling Jeff away to go talk about United 93.
Command Center: Uh, do we want to think, uh, about scrambling aircraft?
FAA Headquarters: Oh, God, I don't know.
Command Center: Uh, that's a decision somebody's gonna have to make probably in the next ten minutes.
FAA Headquarters: Uh, ya know everybody just left the room.

At 9:53, FAA headquarters informed the Command Center that the deputy director for air traffic services was talking to Monte Belger about scrambling aircraft. Then the Command Center informed headquarters that controllers had lost track of United 93 over the Pittsburgh area. Within seconds, the Command Center received a visual report from another aircraft, and informed headquarters that the aircraft was 20 miles northwest of Johnstown. United 93 was spotted by another aircraft, and, at 10:01, the Command Center advised FAA headquarters that one of the aircraft had seen United 93 "waving his wings." The aircraft had witnessed the hijackers' efforts to defeat the passengers' counterattack.

United 93 crashed in Pennsylvania at 10:03:11, 125 miles from Washington, D.C. The precise crash time has been the subject of some dispute. The 10:03:11 impact time is supported by previous National Transportation Safety Board analysis and by evidence from the Commission staff's analysis of radar, the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder, infrared satellite data, and air traffic control transmissions.

Five minutes later, the Command Center forwarded this update to headquarters:

Command Center: O.K. Uh, there is now on that United 93. FAA Headquarters: Yes. Command Center: There is a report of black smoke in the last position I gave you, fifteen miles south of Johnstown. FAA Headquarters: From the airplane or from the ground? Command Center: Uh, they're speculating it's from the aircraft. FAA Headquarters: Okay. Command Center: Uh, who, it hit the ground. That's what they're speculating, that's speculation only. The aircraft that spotted the "black smoke" was the same unarmed Air National Guard cargo plane that had seen American 77 crash into the Pentagon 27 minutes earlier. It had resumed its flight to Minnesota and saw the smoke from the crash of United 93, less than two minutes after the plane went down. At 10:17, the Command Center advised headquarters of its conclusion that United 93 had indeed crashed.

Despite the discussions about military assistance, no one from FAA headquarters requested military assistance regarding United 93. Nor did any manager at FAA headquarters pass any of the information it had about United 93 to the military.

Military Notification and Response NEADS first received a call about United 93 from the military liaison at Cleveland Center at 10:07.

10:07:16 - CLEVELAND CENTER: We got a United 93 out here. Are you aware of that?
WATSON: United 93?
CLEVELAND CENTER: That has a bomb on board.
WATSON: A bomb on board?! And this is confirmed? You have a [beacon code], sir?
CLEVELAND CENTER: No, we lost his transponder.

Unaware that the aircraft had already crashed, Cleveland passed to NEADS the aircraft's last known latitude and longitude. NEADS was never able to locate United 93 on radar because it was already in the ground.

The news of a reported bomb on board United 93 spread quickly at NEADS. The air defenders searched for United 93's primary radar return and tried to locate other fighters to scramble.

At the same time, the NEADS mission crew commander was dealing with the arrival of the Langley fighters over Washington, D.C., sorting out what their orders were with respect to potential targets. Shortly after 10:10, and having no knowledge either that United 93 had been heading toward Washington or that it had crashed, he explicitly instructed the Langley fighters: "negative- negative clearance to shoot" aircraft over the nation's capital.

At 10:15 a.m., NEADS called Washington Center to report:

NEADS: I also want to give you a heads-up, Washington.
FAA (DC): Go ahead.
NEADS: United nine three, have you got information on that yet?
FAA: Yeah, he's down.
NEADS: He's down?
FAA: Yes.
NEADS: When did he land? 'Cause we have got confirmation-
FAA: He did not land.
NEADS: Oh, he's down? Down?
FAA: Yes. Somewhere up northeast of Camp David.
NEADS: Northeast of Camp David.
FAA: That's the last report. They don't know exactly where.
The NEADS air defenders never located the flight or followed it on their radar scopes. The flight had already crashed by the time they learned it was hijacked.

Military intercepts Theory The military is perfectly capable of intercepting commercial aircraft.
Fact The hijackers turned of the aircraft transponders, making it much more difficult to locate the aircraft (as radar blips, among all the many radar blips from all aircraft). Further, bureaucratic problems and incompetency inhibited the government from a quick, efficient, timely response to the hijackings.

Some conspiracy theorists point to the 1999 NORAD intercept of Payne Stewart's Learjet before it crashed. There was already a F-16 in flight, on training, and available. Unlike the hijacked 9/11 aircraft, the transponder in the Learjet was never turned off. These two facts made it possible to make the intercept.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:13:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#462. To: Flintlock (#459)

911 was clearly an inside job.

Oh c'mon, not you too. I can't believe some of the brightest here on 4um could actually suggest they believe that theory.

Now, I can understand sentiment about the government having indirect capability. But, that is because of ineptitude, blunders and too much political BS. But this is no reason to believe the government in any branch or level would commit an act of treason and tyranny and outright murder and destruction costing the US taxpayer trillions upon trillions of dollars.

Can you realistically cite one serious qualified witness about all this tragedy that government was complicit in a planning activity for 911?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:14:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#463. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#461)

Holy Spamination.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:14:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#464. To: FormerLurker (#453)

Wrong asswipe. You stated that the towers were burning for hours with tens of thousands of (something, I assumed gallons) of diesel fuel, where there were only about 3500 gallons of JET fuel available for the fires

My reference to 20,000 gallons was to WTC 7, illiterate.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:14:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#465. To: buckeroo, Flintlock (#462)

911 was clearly an inside job.

Oh c'mon, not you too. I can't believe some of the brightest here on 4um could actually suggest they believe that theory.

Maybe if you spent less time trying to sound smart and more time thinking smart, you'd understand.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:16:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#466. To: wudidiz (#460)

Buck wants everybody to go to sleep because he's tired and wants the last word.

It was a nice pretty day in NYC on September 11, 2001. Not a chemtrail in the sky ..........

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:16:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#467. To: wudidiz (#463) (Edited)

Holy Spamination.

That's a real world NORAD transcript with inferences and commentary by knowledgeable subject matter experts.

Not a CT one paragraph puffball simple enough for k00ks to glom onto and parrot back and forth to each other in groupthink sessions.

Such is life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:17:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#468. To: Flintlock, buckeroo (#459) (Edited)

The neocons would have done ANYTHING to get us involved in a land war in the ME and they did.

This is true. However they had some willing accomplices with the OBL movement, so he did exactly what both the USG and the jihadis wanted - for different reasons, each thinking they would come out on top.

Ever heard the saying "it takes two to fight?"

OBL had already destroyed 2 US Embassies in Africa, had issued many statements including fatwahs and press conferences in the 1990's on various media outlets, and ran training camps on the Afghan-Pakistan border to get visitors ready to take the jihad back to their home or residence countries. All these factors were known years before 911.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:23:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#469. To: AGAviator (#467)

Fine, but it's kinda long, you could've just linked to it.

Like anyone's gonna read that.

:-) lol


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:25:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#470. To: AGAviator (#468)

OBL had already destroyed 2 US Embassies in Africa, had issued many statements includingfatwahs and press conferences in the 1990's on various media outlets, and ran training camps on the Afghan-Pakistan border to get visitors ready to take the jihad back to their home or residence countries. All these factors were known years before 911.

Yeah, and all Bill Clinton got was an aspirin tablet factory and a school/church in two separate incidents.

America paid dearly for both of these failed missions.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:32:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#471. To: wudidiz (#469)

Fine, but it's kinda long, you could've just linked to it.

Seriously, how many people would wade through that off-site? Anyway it's done.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:32:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#472. To: wudidiz (#469)

Like anyone's gonna read that.

Why don't you go out right now .... lay down on the grass facing up to the sky and blow the chemtrails away?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:34:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#473. To: buckeroo (#462)

Can you realistically cite one serious qualified witness about all this tragedy that government was complicit in a planning activity for 911?

Witness or investigator? Yeah, Jesse Ventura

But not now or on this thread. Gov shill boy has spammed it up and nobody is ever going to read it.

Lets just say they couldn't find the "black boxes" (Ventura did) but they COULD find some patsy's passport (ink still wet no doubt). LOL, yeah, right.

Some guy with only flight simulator time executes a perfect 30+ degree (aerobatic) turn after finding the building, then scores a bulls-eye?. Yeah, right, LOL

There's a lot more but I hate wasting my time on this thread.

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   1:37:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#474. To: buckeroo (#472)

Why don't you go out and buy a big crack toke, come home, do it and tell us if it made you any cleverer?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:38:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#475. To: AGAviator (#468)

Ever heard the saying "it takes two to fight?"

Ever heard the saying you're a gov plant and stooge?

WARNING: AGAviator is a paid government agent who is here to spread disinformation. BEWARE!

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   1:40:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#476. To: Flintlock (#473)

Witness or investigator? Yeah, Jesse Ventura

Oh ... just GREAT! A has-been wrestler, failed Governor ...

He wasn't in NYC on the government planning to destroy ANYTHING. I wager he was getting his face make-up creating some political statement for and about himself that day.

He has no inside knowledge. If he did, he would have admitted his sources.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:42:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#477. To: wudidiz (#474)

Why don't you go out and buy a big crack toke, come home, do it and tell us if it made you any cleverer?

Is that what you do in Canada?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#478. To: buckeroo, Flintlock (#473)

Spammed it up and nobody is ever going to read it.

Six Percenter now saying that NORAD transcripts contradicting back of the envelope NORAD airspeed k00kulations are spam.

Surprise!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:44:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#479. To: buckeroo (#476)

Watch the show

Here's part #1

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   1:45:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#480. To: Flintlock (#475)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:48:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#481. To: Flintlock (#473)

Some guy with only flight simulator time executes a perfect 30+ degree (aerobatic) turn after finding the building, then scores a bulls-eye?. Yeah, right, LOL

The illegal alien terrorists had plenty of actual flight training... in fact, several were in US flight schools receiving American taxpayer support for that same training.

You should feel cheated and defiled and lied to. I do. But that is not a direct connection towards government complicity about 9-11.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:49:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#482. To: Flintlock (#473)

There's a lot more but I hate wasting my time on this thread.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:50:05 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#483. To: AGAviator (#478)

Hey kOOKaNuTTer, if you travel 130 miles, and the travel time is 25 minutes, how fast are you going?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   1:51:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#484. To: All (#482)

Soft Porn Break.....


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:52:59 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#485. To: All (#479) (Edited)

>

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   1:53:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#486. To: AGAviator (#478)

Surprise!

Nothing surprises me on the Internet. I have been here way too long ... with very thick skin, BTW.

I will say this, you are a breath of fresh aire on 4um. Some of your posts are well researched and take quite a bit of time to find, authenticate and format. Thank you, AG.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:53:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#487. To: AGAviator (#480)

If you're typing, you're lying

WARNING: AGAviator is a paid government agent who is here to spread disinformation. BEWARE!

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   1:54:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#488. To: buckeroo (#481)

The illegal alien terrorists had plenty of actual flight training... in fact, several were in US flight schools receiving American taxpayer support for that same training.

Only 2 out of the 4 hijacked planes on 911 hit their targets fully successful, so you can say there was not complete hijacker competence.

The Pentagon hit was an attempt to get a plane in a diving power turn to hit the building at all - it got too much lift going down to hit the north side, and ended up going in from the back at an oblique angle, not straight on, into a section that was being renovated and not Rumsfeld's offices facing the Potomac.

The Pennsylvania crash was a complete failure to hit the target, leaving the 2 NY hits as the only completely successful attacks, with extra bonus from WTC 7 going down and serious damage to other buildings from the Twin Tower consequences .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:55:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#489. To: buckeroo (#486)

I will say this, you are a breath of fresh aire on 4um

Buck, are you down to one brain cell?

You're acting like it

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-12   1:55:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#490. To: buckeroo (#486)

with very thick skin

I think you're confusing your skin with your head.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:56:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#491. To: FormerLurker (#483) (Edited)

Hey kOOKaNuTTer, if you travel 130 miles, and the travel time is 25 minutes, how fast are you going?

I already gave you timetable saying the max time between notification and crashes was 8 minutes, not 25, and the fighters were over the Atlantic and unable to get precise vectors to what or where they were supposed to be intercepting, due to transponders not transmitting IFF's.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   1:58:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#492. To: All (#484)

I found her while searching for "This thread sucks" and thought she belonged here.

Is that wrong?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   1:58:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#493. To: AGAviator (#488)

Only 2 out of the 4 hijacked planes on 911 hit their targets fully successful, so you can say there was not complete hijacker competence.

They were too nervous ... they were about to receive their 78 virgins in heaven, remember? They were probably coming in their pants commanding airships out of their training.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   1:58:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#494. To: wudidiz (#484)

LOL


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   1:59:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#495. To: farmfriend (#494)

If loving her is wrong, I don't wanna be right!!


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:00:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#496. To: Flintlock (#489)

Buck, are you down to one brain cell?

You're acting like it

Thanks for the one vote of confidence.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:00:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#497. To: farmfriend, All (#495)

02:00:00

Oh lookit that.

Don't see that too often.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:01:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#498. To: Turtle (#497)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:03:19 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#499. To: wudidiz (#495)

If loving her is wrong, I don't wanna be right!!

again you make me laugh.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:11:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#500. To: wudidiz (#497)

It's a gift. Or should I say something like 200ert.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:12:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#501. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent (#500)

500

Wow, look at that.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:14:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#502. To: wudidiz (#501)

I'm on a roll!


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:15:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#503. To: farmfriend (#500)

Notice how right after I posted the picture of the half naked chick all the fellas dropped outta sight?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:15:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#504. To: wudidiz (#503)

Notice how right after I posted the picture of the half naked chick all the fellas dropped outta sight?

I could have sworn you were a fella.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:17:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#505. To: farmfriend (#504)

Oh, make no mistake about it Ma'am. I'm a fella ;-)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:18:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#506. To: farmfriend (#504)

Notice how right after I posted the picture of the half naked chick all the fellas dropped outta sight?

I could have sworn you were a fella.

I meant the rest of the fellas.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#507. To: wudidiz (#506)

Are you suggesting that they are all now...occupied?


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:21:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#508. To: wudidiz (#506)

Looks more like they disappeared right after I posted. Maybe they don't want to talk to me?


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:23:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#509. To: farmfriend (#507)

You can draw your own conclusions. I just present the facts ;-)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#510. To: farmfriend (#508)

Looks more like they disappeared right after I posted. Maybe they don't want to talk to me?

I'm certain that's not the case.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#511. To: wudidiz (#510)

I don't know, it's been a weird friggin day I tell you.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:27:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#512. To: farmfriend (#508)

Maybe they don't want to talk to me?

Your ideas concerning US government involvement concerning 9/11 is welcomed. The other chit-chat is distracting and actually diminishes some awesome work, here.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:28:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#513. To: farmfriend (#511)

I noticed too. You mean on 4 or where you are too?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:28:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#514. To: AGAviator (#491)

I already gave you timetable saying the max time between notification and crashes was 8 minutes, not 25, and the fighters were over the Atlantic and unable to get precise vectors to what or where they were supposed to be intercepting due to transponders not transmitting IFF's.

And your timetable is garbage.


Fighters Launched in Response to Flight 77? - In later testimony, military officials will give contradictory explanations for why the Langley F- 16s are scrambled. An early NORAD timeline will indicate the fighters are launched in response to NORAD being notified at 9:24 that Flight 77 has been hijacked (see (9:24 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [North American Aerospace Defense Command, 9/18/2001] Colonel Alan Scott, the former vice commander of the Continental US NORAD Region (CONR), will suggest the same, telling the 9/11 Commission: 60;At 9:24 the FAA reports a possible hijack of [Flight] 77.70; And at that moment as well is when the Langley F-16s were scrambled out of Langley.61; [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003; 1st Air Force, 8/8/2006] And a timeline provided by senior Defense Department officials to CNN will state, 60;NORAD orders jets scrambled from Langley61; in order to 60;head to intercept61; Flight 77. [CNN, 9/17/2001]
In Response to Flight 93? - However, Major General Larry Arnold, the CONR commander, will give a different explanation. He will tell the 9/11 Commission, 60;we launched the aircraft out of Langley to put them over top of Washington, DC, not in response to American Airline 77, but really to put them in position in case United 93 were to head that way.61; [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003]
In Response to Incorrect Report about Flight 11? - In 2004, the 9/11 Commission will dispute both these previous explanations, and conclude that the Langley jets are scrambled in response to an incorrect report that Flight 11 is still airborne and heading toward Washington, DC (see 9:21 a.m. September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 26-27; 9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 15 pdf file] Tape recordings of the NEADS operations floor will corroborate this account. [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006] According to the 9/11 Commission, its conclusion is also confirmed by 60;taped conversations at FAA centers; contemporaneous logs compiled at NEADS, Continental Region headquarters, and NORAD; and other records.61; [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 34] Major Nasypany will tell the Commission that the reason the Langley jets are directed toward the Baltimore area is to position them between the reportedly southbound Flight 11 and Washington, as a 60;barrier cap.61; [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27 and 461] John Farmer, senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission, will later suggest that NORAD deliberately misled Congress and the Commission by hiding the fact that the Langley scramble takes place in response to the erroneous report that Flight 11 is still airborne. He will write that the mistaken report 60;appears in more logs, and on more tapes, than any other single event that morning.70; It was the reason for the Langley scramble; it had triggered the Air Threat Conference Call. Yet it had never been disclosed; it was, instead, talked around.61; [Farmer, 2009, pp. 266-267]
Conflicting Times - Early news reports will put the time of the scramble order slightly later than the 9/11 Commission places it, between 9:25 and 60;about 9:27.61; [Washington Post, 9/12/2001; CNN, 9/17/2001; CNN, 9/19/2001] But a NORAD timeline released a week after the attacks will give the same time as the Commission does, of 9:24. [North American Aerospace Defense Command, 9/18/2001; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27]

Entity Tags: 9/11 Commission, Kevin Nasypany, Alan Scott, Larry Arnold, North American Aerospace Defense Command, Langley Air Force Base, US Department of Defense, Northeast Air Defense Sector

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline Bookmark and Share

(9:25 a.m.- 9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Langley Jets Take off, but Are Delayed during Launch

sEL('1626004942- 70967','70967')

Captain Craig 
Borgstrom.Captain Craig Borgstrom. [Source: US Air Force / Austin Knox]The three F-16 fighter jets ordered to scramble from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia (see 9:24 a.m. September 11, 2001) take off and, radar data will show, are airborne by 9:30 a.m. [North American Aerospace Defense Command, 9/18/2001; Christian Science Monitor, 4/16/2002; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27]
Delayed during Launch - Major Dean Eckmann will recall that, after receiving the scramble order, he and the two other pilots have 60;a pretty quick response time. I believe it was four to five minutes we were airborne from that point.61; [BBC, 9/1/2002] According to the 1st Air Force57;s book about 9/11, the three fighters are 60;given highest priority over all other air traffic at Langley Air Force Base61; as they are launching. [Filson, 2003, pp. 63] But, according to author Lynn Spencer, in spite of this, the jets are delayed. As Eckmann is approaching the runway, he calls the control tower for clearance to take off, but the tower controller tells him, 60;Hold for an air traffic delay.61; Air traffic controllers at the FAA57;s Washington Center 60;have not had time to clear airliners out of the way for the northerly heading. Dozens of aircraft at various altitudes fill the jets57; route.61; After having to wait two minutes, Eckmann complains: 60;We57;re an active air scramble. We need to go now!61; Finally, the tower controller tells him, 60;Roger, Quit flight is cleared for takeoff, 090 for 60,61; meaning the fighters are to fly due east for 60 miles (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001).
Taking Off - The three jets launch 15 seconds apart, with Eckmann in front and the two other jets following. [Spencer, 2008, pp. 143-144] Pilot Craig Borgstrom will later recall, 60;[W]e took off, the three of us, and basically the formation we always brief on alert, we57;ll stay in a two- to three-mile trail from the guy in front.61; [Filson, 2003, pp. 63] According to the BBC, the pilots get a signal over their planes57; transponders, indicating an emergency wartime situation. [BBC, 9/1/2002]
Could Reach Washington before Pentagon Attack - F-16s have a maximum speed of 1,500 mph at high altitude, or 915 mph at sea level, so the three fighters could plausibly travel the 130 miles from Langley Air Force Base to Washington in just minutes. [Chant, 1987, pp. 404; Associated Press, 6/16/2000; USA Today, 9/16/2001; Washington Post, 9/16/2001 pdf file; US Air Force, 10/2007] Major General Larry Arnold, the commanding general of NORAD57;s Continental US Region, will tell the 9/11 Commission, 60;I think if those aircraft had gotten airborne immediately, if we were operating under something other than peacetime rules, where they could have turned immediately toward Washington, DC, and gone into burner, it is physically possible that they could have gotten over Washington61; before 9:37, when the Pentagon is hit. [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003] Yet according to the 9/11 Commission, the jets are redirected east over the Atlantic Ocean and will be 150 miles from the Pentagon when it is hit (see 9:30 a.m.-9:37 a.m. September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27]
Conflicting Times - Some early news reports after 9/11 will say the Langley jets take off at the later time of 9:35 a.m. [Washington Post, 9/12/2001; CNN, 9/14/2001; Washington Post, 9/15/2001; CNN, 9/17/2001] But according to Colonel Alan Scott, the former vice commander of the Continental US NORAD Region, though the jets are airborne at 9:30, the report of this does not come down until 9:35, so this fact may account for the conflicting times. [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003]

Entity Tags: Brad Derrig, Alan Scott, Craig Borgstrom, Dean Eckmann, Langley Air Force Base, Larry Arnold

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline Bookmark and Share

9:30 a.m.-9:37 a.m. September 11, 2001: Langley Fighters Fly East over Ocean instead of North toward Washington

sEL('1626004942-71481','71481')

Route of the Langley Air 
Base fighters to Washington.Route of the Langley Air Base fighters to Washington. [Source: Yvonne Vermillion/ MagicGraphix.com]The three F-16s that took off from Langley Air Force Base in Virginia (see (9:25 a.m.- 9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001) head east, out over the Atlantic Ocean, instead of north toward the Baltimore area, as NORAD57;s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) instructed when it issued the scramble order (see 9:24 a.m. September 11, 2001). [New York Times, 11/15/2001; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27]
Three Reasons Jets Head East - The 9/11 Commission will give three reasons why the Langley jets go east instead of north: 60;First, unlike a normal scramble order, this order did not include a distance to the target or the target57;s location. Second, a 56;generic57; flight plan52;prepared to get the aircraft airborne and out of local airspace quickly52;incorrectly led the Langley fighters to believe they were ordered to fly due east (090) for 60 miles. Third, the lead pilot and local FAA controller incorrectly assumed the flight plan instruction to go 56;090 for 6057; superseded the original scramble order.61; [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27]
NORAD Commander Blames 'Peacetime Rules' - In his testimony before the 9/11 Commission in May 2003, Larry Arnold, the commanding general of NORAD57;s Continental US Region, will address the question of why the Langley jets head out over the sea. He says, 60;When we scramble an aircraft70; the aircraft take off and they have a predetermined departure route.61; According to Arnold, NORAD is 60;looking outward,61; and so 60;our mission, unlike law enforcement57;s mission, is to protect things coming towards the United States.61; He concludes, 60;So our peacetime procedures, to de-conflict with civil aviation57;s, so as to not have endanger[ed] civil aviation in any particular way.61; Arnold will also suggest that 60;peacetime rules61; might be partly to blame for the Langley jets heading in the wrong direction. He says, 60;[I]f we were operating under something other than peacetime rules70; they could have turned immediately toward Washington, DC.61; [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003] According to the Wall Street Journal, the 60;peacetime rules61; Arnold refers to are 60;noise restrictions requiring that [the Langley jets] fly more slowly than supersonic speed and take off over water, pointed away from Washington.61; [Wall Street Journal, 3/22/2004 pdf file] One of the Langley pilots, Captain Craig Borgstrom, will later recall that, shortly after the jets take off, NEADS 60;gave us max- subsonic,61; which is 60;as fast as you can go without breaking the sound barrier.61; [Filson, 2003, pp. 65]
Risk of Midair Collision - NORAD official Major General Craig McKinley will tell the 9/11 Commission that 60;another reason why61; the Langley jets are 60;vectored east originally61; is that 60;the air traffic over the Northeast corridor is so complex that to just launch fighters70; into that air traffic system can cause potential damage or midair collision. So we rely on the FAA to de-conflict those corridors.61; [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003]
Jets Far Away from Pentagon - When the Pentagon is hit at 9:37 a.m., the Langley jets have flown nearly 60 miles out over the ocean and are 150 miles from Washington (see 9:37 a.m. September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27; Spencer, 2008, pp. 151]

Entity Tags: Craig McKinley, Larry Arnold, Craig Borgstrom

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline Bookmark and Share

9:31 a.m.- 9:33 a.m. September 11, 2001: Norfolk Approach Control Handles Langley Jets, but Does Not Redirect Them to Correct Heading

sEL('1626004942-71539','71539')

The Norfolk Tower TRACON.The Norfolk Tower TRACON. [Source: Federal Aviation Administration]The FAA57;s Norfolk Terminal Radar Approach Control (TRACON) is briefly in charge of the three F- 16s launched from Langley Air Force Base (see (9:25 a.m.- 9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001), but it does not redirect them northward in line with the military57;s orders, after the Langley air traffic control tower previously instructed them to fly east. [9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 96 pdf file]
Jets Sent East instead of North - When NORAD57;s Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) issued the scramble order (see 9:24 a.m. September 11, 2001), it specified that the Langley jets be directed north toward Washington, DC. But as the jets were taking off, the Langley tower instructed them to go 60;090 for 60,61; meaning they were to fly east for 60 miles (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 1/9/2004; Spencer, 2008, pp. 142-143]
TRACON Does Not Redirect Jets - When aircraft take off from Langley Air Force Base, control of them is passed from the Langley tower to the Norfolk TRACON. [9/11 Commission, 10/6/2003 pdf file] Controllers at the TRACON are permitted to change an aircraft57;s flight plan, in the case of the Langley jets the 60;090 for 6061; instruction. [9/11 Commission, 12/1/2003 pdf file] A 9/11 Commission memorandum will state that the Langley jets are 60;not bound to the 60 mile distance and could have turned to the north at any time they were directed to or had orders to do so.61; [9/11 Commission, 10/6/2003 pdf file] However, although the TRACON is aware that NEADS ordered the jets to head north, it does not redirect them toward this heading instead of going east. [9/11 Commission, 12/1/2003 pdf file] According to the 9/11 Commission, the reason is that 60;both the lead Langley pilot,61; Major Dean Eckmann, 60;and the FAA57;s Norfolk TRACON facility70; assumed the flight plan instruction to go 56;090 for 6057; was newer guidance that superseded the original scramble order instructions61; issued by NEADS. [9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 96 pdf file]
Pilot Agrees to Follow Tower's Directions - At 9:33, Norfolk TRACON controller Michael Strother asks Eckmann what direction he wants to head in. Strother says, 60;Quit 2-5, are you going directly to the Langley 090 at 60?61; If Eckmann wanted to go somewhere other than what is specified in the flight plan, Strother has the authority to grant the request. But Eckmann replies, 60;Affirmative.61; He says, 60;That57;s our second clearance,61; and, referring to the NEADS scramble order, adds, 60;We had an earlier clearance of a vector and an altitude.61; The 9/11 Commission will summarize, 60;Put simply, the Langley pilots received flight direction guidance from both the scramble order and the Langley AFB departure flight plan, and continued on the latter heading for several minutes until a direction and geographic destination was provided.61; [9/11 Commission, 12/1/2003 pdf file; 9/11 Commission, 1/9/2004; 9/11 Commission, 8/26/2004, pp. 96 pdf file]
Navy Facility Takes over Control of Jets - Norfolk TRACON subsequently passes control of the three F-16s on to 60;Giant Killer,61; the Fleet Area Control and Surveillance Facility in Virginia Beach, Virginia. This is the Navy air traffic control agency that handles all over-water military operations. [New York Times, 2/10/1997; 9/11 Commission, 2004; 9/11 Commission, 1/9/2004; Spencer, 2008, pp. 143] It will not be until around the time the Pentagon is hit that the Langley jets are redirected to their correct heading (see 9:36 a.m. September 11, 2001), after NEADS notices they are going in the wrong direction (see 9:34 a.m. September 11, 2001). [Vanity Fair, 8/1/2006; Spencer, 2008, pp. 149-151]

Entity Tags: Norfolk Terminal Radar Approach Control, Dean Eckmann, Michael Strother

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline Bookmark and Share

9:37 a.m. September 11, 2001: Navy Command Center Employees Killed While Trying to Get More Fighters Launched

sEL('1626004942-22717','22717')

Diagram showing 
the area of impact at the Pentagon. The Navy Command Center is highlighted in 
red.Diagram showing the area of impact at the Pentagon. The Navy Command Center is highlighted in red. [Source: Washington Post] (click image to enlarge)Edward Earhart, Matthew Flocco, and their supervisor Lt. Nancy McKeown are inside the Pentagon, watching the televised footage of the burning World Trade Center. They belong to a small meteorological unit based in the Navy Command Center, located on the first floor of the building57;s southwest face. McKeown asks her two young aides to bring up New York on the computer because the Command Center is going to send some fighter jets there, in case there is another attack on the city. She orders them to program weather updates for military aircraft converging on New York. However, very soon after this, the Command Center is directly impacted when the Pentagon is hit, and both Flocco and Earhart are killed. [Washington Post, 9/16/2001; Reader's Digest, 9/2002; CNN, 9/8/2002; Newsday, 4/12/2006] Ronald Vauk, the watch commander in the Navy Command Center, is on the phone trying to get more fighters scrambled at the time the Pentagon is hit, though news reports say he wants them to protect Washington, not New York. [John Hopkins Magazine, 11/2001; New York Times, 11/17/2001; Baltimore Sun, 9/11/2002] At 9:24 a.m., NORAD had ordered fighters at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to scramble (see 9:24 a.m. September 11, 2001), though these will not arrive over the Pentagon until after it is hit (see (Between 9:49 a.m. and 11:00 a.m.) September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 6/17/2004] According to Lt. Kevin Shaeffer, who works in the Command Center, just prior to the attack on the Pentagon, the watch section and watch leaders in the center are actively engaged in logging and recording the events going on in New York. He later says, 60;they all responded in exactly the way they were trained,61; and, 60;Had the Command Center not been destroyed it surely would have been able to provide the highest levels of our Navy leadership with updates as to exactly what was occurring.61; [Chips, 3/2003]

Entity Tags: Ronald Vauk, Kevin Shaeffer, Nancy McKeown

Timeline Tags: Complete 911 Timeline, 9/11 Timeline


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   2:28:46 ET  (19 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#515. To: farmfriend, buckeroo (#512)

The other chit-chat is distracting and actually diminishes some awesome work, here.

Buck has a boner for his new friend AGAviator.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#516. To: wudidiz (#509)

I just present the facts

When? I haven't any. HOTlink it.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:29:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#517. To: AGAviator (#491)

Sorry, didn't have time to pretty up the HTML for you. Anybody who wants to know what happened can follow the voluminous links.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   2:30:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#518. To: buckeroo (#516)

HOTlink it.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:31:57 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#519. To: buckeroo (#512)

Your ideas concerning US government involvement concerning 9/11 is welcomed.

I didn't think you loved me any more. I will say a good movie on 9/11 is Ripple Effect.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:35:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#520. To: wudidiz (#518)

Who chewed the bottom of her shirt off? Poor girl looks chilly, like she needs some warming up...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   2:35:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#521. To: wudidiz (#515)

Buck has a boner for his new friend AGAviator.

I bet they know what each other's spit tastes like...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   2:36:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#522. To: FormerLurker (#520)

Am I gonna get in trouble for posting that?

Remember that one gif thread OLD Friend started way back?

With the moving snapper?

christine pulled it pretty quick....

lol


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:37:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#523. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#513)

You mean on 4 or where you are too?

Everywhere. We have confirmed that the "leadership" of the American Independent Party, the one instrumental in our destruction, has ties to the Republican Party leadership, the destruction of the Reform Party and the Southern Poverty Law Center. We suspect he is ADL too but haven't proven that yet.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:38:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#524. To: FormerLurker (#521)

Gross.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:38:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#525. To: FormerLurker (#514)

The fundamental problem with YOUR post is that there is an assumption of guilt or conspiracy about the activities to scramble a few jet fighters in the face of an actual terror exposition.

All you are doing is showing bumbling and ineptitude from the top down and the bottom up from an attack in America. You have not shown any indication of any planning, execution, logistics, funding and later cover-ups by the many people it would take to within the government to create this issue. Not even one INSIDER witness that should have come forward by now.

You fail, dude.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:38:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#526. To: wudidiz (#522) (Edited)

You just need to tie the picture into terrorism.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:39:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#527. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#525)

All you are doing is showing bumbling and ineptitude from the top down and the bottom up from an attack in America. You have not shown any indication of any planning, execution, logistics, funding and later cover-ups by the many people it would take to within the government to create this issue. Not even one INSIDER witness that should have come forward by now.

You fail, dude.

Not true.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:41:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#528. To: wudidiz (#518)

As always ... you don't dig deep enough to enough life and the bounty of pleasure.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:41:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#529. To: farmfriend (#526)

You're gonna get banned and you're gonna get me banned too for starting it.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:42:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#530. To: buckeroo (#525)

All you are doing is showing bumbling and ineptitude from the top down and the bottom up from an attack in America.

Not really. Those jets are scrabbled routinely yet on the one day they are needed they are ordered to stand down. Why?


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:43:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#531. To: wudidiz (#527)

Not true.

You are fucking up this thread... KNOCK IT OFF.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:43:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#532. To: wudidiz (#529)

You're gonna get banned and you're gonna get me banned too for starting it.

LOL no one pays attention to my posts anyway so I doubt it. It might get pulled and probably should be.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#533. To: FormerLurker, turtle, buckeroo, critter (#517)

Didn't have time to pretty up the HTML for you. Anybody who wants to know what happened can follow the voluminous links.

Maybe you should have.

You would have found out from your own link that at 9:30 the fighters took off heading 60 miles due east into the Atlantic Defense Zone, because they were not told the purpose of their flight so they followed standard procedure to repel threats from outside the country.

Finally, the tower controller tells him, 60;Roger, Quit flight is cleared for takeoff, 090 for 60,61; meaning the fighters are to fly due east for 60 miles (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   2:44:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#534. To: buckeroo (#531)

KNOCK IT OFF

LOL

Shut up.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:45:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#535. To: farmfriend (#526)

I can't believe you deleted that art.

You're such a pussy.....

;-D


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:46:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#536. To: buckeroo (#525)

All you are doing is showing bumbling and ineptitude from the top down and the bottom up from an attack in America. You have not shown any indication of any planning, execution, logistics, funding and later cover-ups by the many people it would take to within the government to create this issue. Not even one INSIDER witness that should have come forward by now.

I am simply showing the CLAIMED NORAD response, not even MENTIONING the case of misguided radar blips, war games were in play, and the foreknowledge that morning that jets had already impacted the WTC. Washington was ALREADY on alert, yet some half assed smoke and mirrors show was staged from Langley AFB, rather than the WASHINGTON DC AFB ie, ANDREWS, where they had TWO FUCKING SQUADRONS of alert aircraft ready for immediate launch, yet DIDN'T even though they KNEW a rogue airliner was on it's way from Ohio.

And yet we were once able to knock down waves of Soviet bombers at a moments notice.

Either they spent every penny in the way of tax dollars up their noses, or they are SERIOUSLY playing us as true suckers, in more ways than one.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   2:47:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#537. To: wudidiz (#535)

I can't believe you deleted that art.

You're such a pussy.....

LOL yes I am!

My husband has a picture of this t-shirt that says I lost my virginity but I still have the box it came in. I need to get a copy.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   2:48:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#538. To: AGAviator (#533)

Finally, the tower controller tells him, 60;Roger, Quit flight is cleared for takeoff, 090 for 60,61; meaning the fighters are to fly due east for 60 miles (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001).

Did you ignore the part that states they launched at 9:24, and their purpose was to intercept Flight 77?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   2:49:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#539. To: wudidiz (#534)

Shut up.

OK .. from your personal perspective that is well researched, you think 911 was caused by the government because of the chemtrails, cropcricles, aliens from outer space or AlGore?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:50:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#540. To: farmfriend (#537)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:50:16 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#541. To: buckeroo, all (#539)

Shut up.

OK .. from your personal perspective that is well researched, you think 911 was caused by the government because of the chemtrails, cropcricles, aliens from outer space or AlGore?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   2:52:13 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#542. To: AGAviator (#533)

Could Reach Washington before Pentagon Attack - F-16s have a maximum speed of 1,500 mph at high altitude, or 915 mph at sea level, so the three fighters could plausibly travel the 130 miles from Langley Air Force Base to Washington in just minutes. [Chant, 1987, pp. 404; Associated Press, 6/16/2000; USA Today, 9/16/2001; Washington Post, 9/16/2001 ; US Air Force, 10/2007] Major General Larry Arnold, the commanding general of NORAD’s Continental US Region, will tell the 9/11 Commission, “I think if those aircraft had gotten airborne immediately, if we were operating under something other than peacetime rules, where they could have turned immediately toward Washington, DC, and gone into burner, it is physically possible that they could have gotten over Washington” before 9:37, when the Pentagon is hit. [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003] Yet according to the 9/11 Commission, the jets are redirected east over the Atlantic Ocean and will be 150 miles from the Pentagon when it is hit (see 9:30 a.m.-9:37 a.m. September 11, 2001). [9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004, pp. 27] Conflicting Times - Some early news reports after 9/11 will say the Langley jets take off at the later time of 9:35 a.m. [Washington Post, 9/12/2001; CNN, 9/14/2001; Washington Post, 9/15/2001; CNN, 9/17/2001] But according to Colonel Alan Scott, the former vice commander of the Continental US NORAD Region, though the jets are airborne at 9:30, the report of this does not come down until 9:35, so this fact may account for the conflicting times. [9/11 Commission, 5/23/2003]


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   2:53:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#543. To: FormerLurker (#536)

I am simply showing the CLAIMED NORAD response,

Mere BUMBLING based upon a surprise attack from illegal aliens.

IF the government (any branch of service, level of government or payment to a contractor) had some connection you would see it by now; nine years later.

In fact, IF the US government had intended to create a war in the ME such as Iraq based upon 911 (which is often suggested) you would have seen MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF WMD FOUND, IDENTIFIED AND SUBMITTED PUBLICKLY to not just the US taxpayers but the whole world.

Instead, the scenario in Iraq was ... America fucked upped.

You see, America doesn't have the capability to plan and execute these plans. All America can do is perform knee-jerk reactions.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   2:59:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#544. To: buckeroo (#543)

Mere BUMBLING based upon a surprise attack from illegal aliens.

They weren't ilegal, they had visas and all that.

In fact, it wasn't even the ones they claim, since more than a few of them are still FUCKING ALIVE.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:02:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#545. To: buckeroo (#543)

In fact, IF the US government had intended to create a war in the ME such as Iraq based upon 911 (which is often suggested) you would have seen MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF WMD FOUND, IDENTIFIED AND SUBMITTED PUBLICKLY to not just the US taxpayers but the whole world.

Yet we are still there, aren't we. It's like, so what, we lied, what are you going to do about it....


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#546. To: buckeroo (#543)

BTW buck, the war in Iraq is just an afterthought, in that it wasn't the PRIMARY target. Afghanistan was the primary target, and Iraq was just gravy.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:07:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#547. To: FormerLurker (#544)

They weren't ilegal, they had visas and all that.

Everyone of the 19 terrorists identified by the State Department and the FBI were in the USA based upon fraudulent documents. Not one of them were here legally.

There was no research by the US government... NONE, ZERO, ZILCH, NADA.... it was all rubber stamped by sleepy US government workers not executing their responsibilities correctly according to process and procedure.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:08:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#548. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#542)

More from your link

According to the 1st Air Force57;s book about 9/11, the three fighters are 60;given highest priority over all other air traffic at Langley Air Force Base61; as they are launching. [Filson, 2003, pp. 63]

But, according to author Lynn Spencer, in spite of this, the jets are delayed. As Eckmann is approaching the runway, he calls the control tower for clearance to take off, but the tower controller tells him, 60;Hold for an air traffic delay.61; Air traffic controllers at the FAA57;s Washington Center 60;have not had time to clear airliners out of the way for the northerly heading. Dozens of aircraft at various altitudes fill the jets57; route.61;

After having to wait two minutes, Eckmann complains: 60;We57;re an active air scramble. We need to go now!61; Finally, the tower controller tells him, 60;Roger, Quit flight is cleared for takeoff, 090 for 60,61 meaning the fighters are to fly due east for 60 miles; (see (9:30 a.m.) September 11, 2001).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   3:09:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#549. To: FormerLurker (#545)

Yet we are still there, aren't we. It's like, so what, we lied, what are you going to do about it....

As Colin Powell confided ... "if you go in, you own it." Of course, the shithead president booted his ass out.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:10:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#550. To: buckeroo (#543)

IF the government (any branch of service, level of government or payment to a contractor) had some connection you would see it by now; nine years later.

How much of the Mossad/ISI/CIA connection are you aware of? How much contact do you think they have with the military, and/or how many military assets do you think they have at their disposal?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:11:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#551. To: buckeroo (#547)

Everyone of the 19 terrorists identified by the State Department and the FBI were in the USA based upon fraudulent documents. Not one of them were here legally.

Really?

They had passports and visas. Post a link proving what you say.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:13:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#552. To: FormerLurker (#546)

Afghanistan was the primary target, and Iraq was just gravy.

Gotta keep those drugs flowing.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   3:14:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#553. To: AGAviator (#548)

Like I said, they sent them over the sea for a bit, then had them mosy over to DC when it was too late to do anything.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:14:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#554. To: buckeroo (#547)

Everyone of the 19 terrorists identified by the State Department and the FBI were in the USA based upon fraudulent documents. Not one of them were here legally.

At least a few are still alive and were here for legitimate flight training, since they actually WERE pilots, and are currently flying the skies for Saudi Airlines.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:16:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#555. To: buckeroo (#547)

At Least 7 of the 9/11 Hijackers are Still Alive


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:18:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#556. To: buckeroo (#547)

Tracking the 19 Hijackers What are they up to now? At least 9 of them survived 9/11


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:20:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#557. To: FormerLurker (#550)

How much of the Mossad/ISI/CIA connection are you aware of?

Even the FBI made reports to the shithead in chief about clandestine terrorists planning a method of sabotage towards America.

Your crap confirms the same filtered blah, blah blah.

The US government is asleep at the wheel waiting for a command decision from the president through the chain of command. Why? The burden of any president can not be filtered.... and the president can't handle the job.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:21:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#558. To: FormerLurker (#556)

Thank you for carrying the torch for the Truth, FL.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   3:27:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#559. To: farmfriend (#552)

Gotta keep those drugs flowing.

And that natural gas...

Trans- Afghanistan Pipeline


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:29:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#560. To: FormerLurker (#559)

Yeah I've heard it was all about the pipeline before but when you look at things like Iran Contra etc it is always about the drugs. Nine months after the Taliban cut off the drugs we go in. Now we have bumper crops. Processed in Turkey, another US ally. Distributed by another ally. No it was about the drugs.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   3:32:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#561. To: FormerLurker (#554)

At least a few are still alive

Tell them FUCK YOU. They fucked America going after their imaginary virgins for ALLAH.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:33:10 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#562. To: wudidiz (#558)

Thank you for carrying the torch for the Truth, FL.

Got any more soft porn to share?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:34:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#563. To: buckeroo, wudidiz (#562)


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   3:36:48 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#564. To: buckeroo (#561)

Tell them FUCK YOU. They fucked America going after their imaginary virgins for ALLAH.

Thing is, at least 9 of them DIDN'T attack the US, and their identities were stolen. In fact, the supposed ring leader, Mohammed Atta, was training at a US MILITARY INSTALLATION as an officer.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:36:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#565. To: buckeroo (#562)

If I post some, will you finally go to sleep?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   3:37:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#566. To: farmfriend (#560)

Yeah I've heard it was all about the pipeline before but when you look at things like Iran Contra etc it is always about the drugs.

For a black op the size of 9/11, there has to be MULTIPLE goals, and MULTIPLE HUGE payoffs.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:38:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#567. To: FormerLurker (#566)

there has to be MULTIPLE goals, and MULTIPLE HUGE payoffs.

No doubt.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   3:38:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#568. To: buckeroo (#561)

1 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A38270- 2001Sep15.html Washington Post - 9/16/01 - 2nd Witness Arrested; 25 Held for Questioning Two of 19 suspects named by the FBI, Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, have the same names as men listed at a housing facility for foreign military trainees at Pensacola. Two others, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami, have names similar to individuals listed in public records as using the same address inside the base. In addition, a man named Saeed Alghamdi graduated from the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, while men with the same names as two other hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari, appear as graduates of the U.S. International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and the Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio, respectively.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:39:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#569. To: FormerLurker (#564)

Mixed names, even the State Department CANT GET IT RIGHT .. everyone of the terrorists went down... with thousands of innocent people.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:41:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#570. To: wudidiz (#565)

If I post some

I want to see your soft-porn here on 4um while you bang some Canadian bacon. Got a pic?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:43:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#571. To: buckeroo (#569)

Mixed names, even the State Department CANT GET IT RIGHT .. everyone of the terrorists went down... with thousands of innocent people.

Prove that ANY of those "hijackers" actually were on board those planes. I'd really like to see you pin the blame on the ones that are still alive and kicking.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:44:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#572. To: buckeroo (#570)

I want to see your soft-porn here on 4um while you bang some Canadian bacon. Got a pic?

You're a sick, sick man buckeroo.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   3:46:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#573. To: buckeroo (#569)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:46:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#574. To: FormerLurker (#571)

Prove that ANY of those "hijackers" actually were on board those planes.

Kinda tuff, if you don't mind the expression. I wasn't either involved with US operations to understand the issue(s) OR the illegal alien terrorists.

I will say this, however: I watched those US Passenger Jets in the morning here on the West Coast drive into the towers; millions of Americans saw that same set of videos.

You can't buy a real American to die like that for the USA.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:49:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#575. To: buckeroo (#574)

I will say this, however: I watched those US Passenger Jets in the morning here on the West Coast drive into the towers; millions of Americans saw that same set of videos.

You can't buy a real American to die like that for the USA.

Not hard to retrofit the fumigation tanks (look up pesticides in aircraft) with some nerve gas, and remote control the aircraft afterwards...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:51:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#576. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#574)

I will say this, however: I watched those US Passenger Jets in the morning here on the West Coast drive into the towers; millions of Americans saw that same set of videos.

Ever watch the video of Bush saying he saw the first jet hit the tower even though he was supposedly reading books to children when he "heard" about the first jet?

Ever see the news footage of the pods under the jet wings shooting stuff into the tower?

Then of course there are the news reports that tower 7 fell before it did.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   3:54:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#577. To: FormerLurker (#575)

Not hard to retrofit the fumigation tanks (look up pesticides in aircraft) with some nerve gas, and remote control the aircraft afterwards...

I knew the chemtrail stuff was ultimately going to infest this thread... just ask wud.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:56:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#578. To: buckeroo (#574)

Flying in the mist


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:57:40 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#579. To: farmfriend, buckeroo, FormerLurker (#576)

Ever watch the video of Bush saying he saw the first jet hit the tower even though he was supposedly reading books to children when he "heard" about the first jet?

Ever see the news footage of the pods under the jet wings shooting stuff into the tower?

Then of course there are the news reports that tower 7 fell before it did.

Are you saying that perhaps there was a..... conspiracy involved?

You radical, you...


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   3:59:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#580. To: buckeroo (#577)

Air NZ passengers fumigated


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   3:59:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#581. To: FormerLurker (#578)

Unfortunately, your humour is not even close to capturing some FACTS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   3:59:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#582. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz (#574)


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   4:01:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#583. To: buckeroo (#577)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#584. To: farmfriend (#582)

When hasn't a politician .. much less a dumbfuck like GWBush lied to America? These guys are shills.... in two centuries, now.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:03:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#585. To: buckeroo (#577)

Fliers fume over planes treated with pesticides


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:03:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#586. To: buckeroo (#577)

Disinfectant Spraying Aboard Aircraft


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:04:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#587. To: buckeroo (#584)

WAtch that second video, it is from the movie I mentioned earlier.

Time for me to take some more aspirin and go to bed. Nite all.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-12   4:04:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#588. To: FormerLurker (#585)

Where are there direct links to actual evidence of and about specific inside information concerning any US government organization complicit of and about 9/11?

Wheres the beef?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:05:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#589. To: FormerLurker (#585)

Fliers fume over planes treated with pesticides

Crazy.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:06:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#590. To: farmfriend (#587)

Goodnight.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:07:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#591. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#588)

Where are there direct links to actual evidence of and about specific inside information concerning any US government organization complicit of and about 9/11?

Wheres the beef?

Controlled demolition and a massive coverup.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:07:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#592. To: buckeroo (#588)

Where are there direct links to actual evidence of and about specific inside information concerning any US government organization complicit of and about 9/11?

You want a .gov link claiming responsibility?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:09:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#593. To: buckeroo (#588)

Please let me know if you find any links with direct evidence on how International Bankers have raped our country, and used the Federal Reserve to rob us blind, all with the approval and support of those in Congress.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:11:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#594. To: farmfriend (#587)

A waste of my precious time... the video was dubbed over and over again without fact, other than recursion of GWBush's well known gaffs.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:14:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#595. To: FormerLurker (#593)

Throwing pearls to swine.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:17:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#596. To: FormerLurker (#593)

Please let me know if you find any links with direct evidence on how International Bankers have raped our country, and used the Federal Reserve to rob us blind, all with the approval and support of those in Congress.

So your suspicion is PROOF and FACT of the US government complicit in the direct 911 tragedy/disaster/diabolical scheme.

Got detailed names/dates/times/records and beyond all else an insider willing to detail the planning with other complicit names?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:18:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#597. To: buckeroo (#596)

Got detailed names/dates/times/records and beyond all else an insider willing to detail the planning with other complicit names?

You're so bozo-worthy.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:21:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#598. To: Turtle (#0)

Why I Don't Have Any Use for Truthers

They don't have anything but HOT-aire to talk about.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:22:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#599. To: wudidiz (#597)

Thank you.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:23:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#600. To: buckeroo (#596)

So your suspicion is PROOF and FACT of the US government complicit in the direct 911 tragedy/disaster/diabolical scheme.

Got detailed names/dates/times/records and beyond all else an insider willing to detail the planning with other complicit names?

How bout Dick Cheney, for one...

Crossing the Rubicon Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney

What it comes down to is that a REAL and OPEN investigation into 9/11 is required. We won't catch the villains by talking about it and arguing back and forth. Neither you nor I have the means to arrest those who ARE complicit, and I doubt any of them will turn themselves in willingly.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:24:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#601. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#600)

A picture's worth a thousand words....


9/11 Memorial Grace Cathedral


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:27:23 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#602. To: FormerLurker (#600)

What it comes down to is that a REAL and OPEN investigation into 9/11 is required.

What makes you think that stuff is going to happen? Here on a chit-chat channel on this very thread; one of concurrent millions around the world while wud is pounding his pud?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:28:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#603. To: FormerLurker (#600)

Crossing the Rubicon Simplifying the case against Dick Cheney

lol

Dick "I did 9/11" Cheney


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:29:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#604. To: buckeroo (#602)

You're the pud-pounder around these parts there, puckeroo.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:30:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#605. To: buckeroo (#602)

What makes you think that stuff is going to happen?

It's not going to happen by staying in the river called Da Nile.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:31:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#606. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, All (#604)

"Nostradumbass"


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:31:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#607. To: wudidiz (#603)

Dick "I did 9/11" Cheney

He might as well just say it on national TV, I doubt most of the brain dead would even care, they'd STILL want to bomb those "muzzies" just because...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:32:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#608. To: FormerLurker (#607)

He might as well just say it on national TV, I doubt most of the brain dead would even care, they'd STILL want to bomb those "muzzies" just because...

.... they've already made up their minds?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:33:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#609. To: wudidiz (#604)

You're the pud-pounder around these parts there

Where is that explicit picture of you slamming the Canadian bacon? C'mon, you can tell us...... we won't share it on the Internet.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:36:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#610. To: wudidiz (#608)

.... they've already made up their minds?

Because they're brain dead. Take a look at LP if you're in doubt. Hell, just look at AGAv and buck, you don't need to go far to find them...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:36:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#611. To: buckeroo, wudidiz (#609)

Where is that explicit picture of you slamming the Canadian bacon?

I bet you'd like to check that out, eh buck?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:40:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#612. To: FormerLurker (#610)

Buck wants pictures of me naked.

I think it's time to call it a night.

Goodnight FL.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   4:40:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#613. To: wudidiz (#612)

Buck wants pictures of me naked.

Disgusting idea.... still you brought the sexual connotation up on this thread.

I think it's time to call it a night.

Just like Eric and James .... don't forget to change your depends.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:45:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#614. To: wudidiz (#612)

GoodNight Wud.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:45:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#615. To: buckeroo (#613)

Uh huh, ok buck, you were asking where you could find pictures of Wud slamming his bacon. It's all there in the "history" as your pal Badeye would say, or was that yukon...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:47:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#616. To: FormerLurker (#615)

Uh huh, ok buck, you were asking where you could find pictures of Wud slamming his bacon.

Oh BS... wud suggested he was pounding his pud with softporn way up the thread. Wud introduced pics of an explicit issue. As always he just played without adding to the subject.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   4:50:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#617. To: buckeroo (#616)

If you say so. Don't let those bed bugs bite.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   4:51:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#618. To: FormerLurker (#617)

If you say so.

Learn to read and disseminate FACTUAL data coherently @518. Total distraction by wud pounding his pud.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-12   5:00:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#619. To: buckeroo (#163)

The punk GWBush was reading about goats to a kindergarten class in Florida that same time and day. He didn't have a fucking clue.

President Bush's 9/11 Visit To Booker Elementary The Full Story

Why was Bush allowed to visit Booker Elementary on 9/11?

Bush was in his car on the way to Booker Elementary School when the first plane hit the World Trade Center. CIA Director George Tenet declared the impact a deliberate attack with "bin Laden's fingerprints all over it" moments after being informed by cell phone.

With Bush's location given out by the media the day before, an airport only four miles from the school he was visiting, and the CIA Director stating the impact was intentional, why did the Secret Service allow Bush's visit to go ahead?

Bush Caught in a Lie About the WTC Attacks

Bush was in his Presidential Limousine when the first plane hit WTC 1. He has twice remarked about how he saw the first impact on TV, but there was no live TV coverage of the impact. Also the Principal of Booker Elementary has stated that there was no TV in either the corridor Bush came through or anywhere near the classroom he visited. This means that one of two things:

1. Bush is lying about how he learned of the first impact.

2. There was a closed-circuit TV feed, not in the school, but in his Presidential Limousine on which he received a progress report.

Bush at Booker Elementary: The Video that Proves 9/11 was not a Surprise

What damns the Bush administration is not what is in this video, but what SHOULD be in the video and is not. Ostensibly, Bush and Card are reacting to a surprise attack, but Bush does not act surprised, and Card does not act like a man delivering an unexpected piece of news but instead is merely delivering a progress report to which he already knows Bush will not have an immediate response.

Bush's 9/11 Booker Elementary Broadcast: Bravery, Stupidity, or Setup?

Two planes had crashed into the WTC. Two more were flying around the country, destinations unknown. Airports surrounded Booker Elementary School, one of them only 4 miles away. How did the Secret Service KNOW it was safe for Bush to stay in Booker Elementary and make his scheduled broadcast to the nation at 9:30 a.m.?

The Secret Service did nothing.

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

Bill D Berger  posted on  2010-07-12   5:01:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#620. To: Turtle (#0)

So this is what you all did while I went fishing over the wknd?

Ragin1  posted on  2010-07-12   6:16:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#621. To: IRTorqued (#443)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-12   8:02:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#622. To: IRTorqued (#457)

it would appear the second in command of the resident liar movement wants your brain activity at a level closer to his which on occasion peaks slightly above flat line.

LOL! Yeah, he would probably rather "debate" folks who are unconscious. But then who can blame anyone who believes that government conspiracy theory? The one that posits 19 ragheads commanded by someone in a cave in Bum-ef-istan commandeered four commercial airliners (when they couldn't even fly a single-engine Cessna well enough to solo), evaded what is supposed to be the finest defense system money can buy, flew around unimpeded in one of the busiest air corridors in the world and then flew them like stunt pilots to their intended targets. AND one building which wasn't even hit by an airplane, just splashed with a few drops of that Magickal Jet Fuel™ just got tired and fell into its own footprint at very close to freefall speed. Yeah, that sounds reasonable in buckeroo and aggravator world. Not to people who actually use their heads for something besides hat racks.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   9:09:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#623. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#460)

Buck wants everybody to go to sleep because he's tired and wants the last word.

He would do well to heed that wise adage about remaining silent and being thought a fool. I hope his last word won't be as dumb as his first one.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   9:11:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#624. To: buckeroo (#486)

I will say this, you are a breath of fresh aire on 4um. Some of your posts are well researched and take quite a bit of time to find, authenticate and format. Thank you, AG.

$#it, you don't think that's what the government pays him to do? And that they don't supply all the talking points? LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   9:14:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#625. To: wudidiz (#492)

I found her while searching for "This thread sucks" and thought she belonged here.

Is that wrong?

Not at all. I hope you get a nice shiny new (real) silver dollar for that post.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   9:15:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#626. To: farmfriend (#582)

Thanks for posting those videos. I hadn't seen them.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   9:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#627. To: Bill D Berger, buckeroo (#619) (Edited)

That was a great post but I doubt it will sink in. A lot of people have tried to tell buck to lay off that Sterno but now it has him "effed upped" to the point he loves the government and doesn't believe they would ever kill innocent people (despite the obvious proof they do and have).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   9:41:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#628. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#556)

Tracking the 19 Hijackers What are they up to now? At least 9 of them survived 9/11

Hijackers in the September 11 Attacks

Shortly after the attacks and before the FBI had released the pictures of all the hijackers, several reports appeared claiming that some of the men named as hijackers on 9/11 were alive, and were feared to have been victims of identity theft.[27][28][29]

These cases, however, turned out to be instances of mistaken identity.[30][31]

Saudi Official: 15 of 19 Hijackers Were Saudi

Previously, Saudi Arabia had said the citizenship of 15 of the 19 hijackers was in doubt despite U.S. insistence they were Saudis. But Interior Minister Prince Nayef told The Associated Press that Saudi leaders were shocked to learn 15 of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.

"The names that we got confirmed that," Nayef said in an interview. "Their families have been notified."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   10:18:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#629. To: buckeroo (#596) (Edited)

Got detailed names/dates/times/records and beyond all else an insider willing to detail the planning with other complicit names?

No, but he's got a "codependent relationship" where the Six Percenter Twoffer CT's need the premise of an eebil gubmint to justify their k00kology, and their eebil gubmint needs the Six Percenter Twoffer CT's to marginalize their opposition.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   10:23:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#630. To: James Deffenbach (#625)

I'm thinking of moving to Alabama...


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-12   11:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#631. To: wudidiz (#630)

And Mrs. What It? Is she going to go too?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   11:53:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#632. To: AGAviator (#628)

These cases, however, turned out to be instances of mistaken identity

So who ARE the hijackers then, since those they claimed were the hijackers are still alive and report that their passports were lost or stolen?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   12:42:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#633. To: AGAviator (#628) (Edited)

Tracking the 19 Hijackers
What are they up to now?
At least 9 of them survived 9/11

A former high-level intelligence official told me, "Whatever trail was left
was left deliberately--for the F.B.I. to chase."
New Yorker 10/1/01 by Seymour Hersh
American Airlines #11 Boeing 767
7:45 a.m. Departed Boston for Los Angeles
8:45 a.m. Crashed into North Tower of World Trade Center
Satam M. A. Al 
Suqami
Satam Suqami
Used Firearm
Waleed M. Alshehri
Waleed Alshehri
Still Alive3
Wail M. Alshehri
Wail Alshehri
Still alive10
BL Video12
Mohamed Atta
Mohamed Atta
Still Alive9
U.S. Military1
Abdulaziz Alomari
Abdulaziz Alomari
Still Alive4
U.S. Military1

American Airlines #77 - Boeing 757
8:10 a.m. Departed Dulles for Los Angeles
9:39 a.m. Crashed into Pentagon
Khalid 
Almihdhar
Khalid Almihdhar
Still Alive2
Lived w/FBI20
Majed Moqed
Majed Moqed
Nawaf Alhazmi
Nawaf Alhazmi
Lived w/FBI20
Salem Alhazmi
Salem Alhazmi
Still Alive6
BL Video12
Hani Hanjour
Hani Hanjour
Lacked alleged
flying ability19

United Airlines #175 - Boeing 767
7:58 a.m. Departed Boston for Los Angeles
9:05 a.m. Crashed into South Tower of World Trade Center
Marwan Al-Shehhi
Marwan Al-Shehhi
Still Alive11
Alleged Pilot
Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi 
Banihammad
Fayez Rashid
Ahmed Alghamdi
Ahmed Alghamdi
U.S. Military1
Hamza Alghamdi
Hamza Alghamdi
Fabrications18
U.S. Military1
Photo of Mohand 
Alshehri
Mohand Alshehri

United Airlines #93 - Boeing 757
8:42 a.m. Departed Newark for San Francisco
10:03 a.m. Crashed in Stony Creek Township
Saeed Alghamdi
Saeed Alghamdi
Still Alive5
U.S. Military1
Ahmad Ibrahim A. Al 
Haznawi
Ahmad Haznawi
Ahmed Alnami
Ahmed Alnami
Still Alive7
U.S. Military1
Ziad Samir Jarrah
Ziad Samir Jarrah
Fabrications16
Alleged Pilot

The FBI still says these are the terrorists.14 But when they are found alive,
the FBI says their identity was stolen, and its not the terrorist.15

Remember that suspicious bin Laden "confession" video?

Back to top

1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A38270- 2001Sep15.html
Washington Post - 9/16/01 - 2nd Witness Arrested; 25 Held for Questioning
Two of 19 suspects named by the FBI, Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, have the same names as men listed at a housing facility for foreign military trainees at Pensacola. Two others, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami, have names similar to individuals listed in public records as using the same address inside the base. In addition, a man named Saeed Alghamdi graduated from the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, while men with the same names as two other hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari, appear as graduates of the U.S. International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and the Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio, respectively.

order Mohamed Atta and the Venice Flying Circus, the real story of the Hijackers
2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.

http://www.azstarnet.com/attack/10928TERRORISTMUGGRAPHIC.html
Online Service of the Arizona Daily Star - 9/28/01 - Hijack suspect profiles
"An FBI notice to banks on Sept. 19 raised the possibility that Almihdhar might still be alive without speculating or explaining how that could be possible. "

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/27/inv.suspects/
CNN - 9/28/01 - Details of hijacking suspects released
Khalid Almihdhar: there are reports he is still alive
3
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well. Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September. Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.
4
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp? story=94438
'Suicide hijacker' is an airline pilot alive and well in Jeddah - 9/17/01
A man named by the US Department of Justice as a suicide hijacker of American Airlines flight 11 ­ the first airliner to smash into the World Trade Centre ­ is very much alive and living in Jeddah. Abdulrahman al-Omari, a pilot with Saudi Airlines, was astonished to find himself accused of hijacking ­ as well as being dead ­ and has visited the US consulate in Jeddah to demand an explanation.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_suspects.html
ABC - Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks
"The name [listed by the FBI] is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Center in New York," Abdulaziz Alomari told the London- based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
Mr Al-Omari, who was accused of hijacking the American Airlines plane that smashed into the the World Trade Centre's north tower, said that he was at his desk at the Saudi telecommunications authority in Riyadh when the attacks took place.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports. He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
5
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
The Saudi Airlines pilot, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, 25, and Abdulaziz Al-Omari, an engineer from Riyadh, are furious that the hijackers' "personal details" - including name, place, date of birth and occupation - matched their own.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi. He was listed by the FBI as a hijacker in the United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.
6
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
Mr Al-Hamzi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbou after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon. He said: "I have never been to the United States and have not been out of Saudi Arabia in the past two years." The FBI described him as 21 and said that his possible residences were Fort Lee or Wayne, both in New Jersey.
7
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
Mr Al-Nami, 33, from Riyadh, an administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines, said that he was in Riyadh when the terrorists struck. He said: "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked."
8
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/investigation.terrorism/index.html
CNN - FBI: Early probe results show 18 hijackers took part 9/13/01
Based on information from multiple law enforcement sources, CNN reported that Adnan Bukhari and Ameer Bukhari of Vero Beach Florida, were suspected to be two of the pilots who crashed planes into the World Trade Center. CNN later learned that Adnan Bukhari is still in Florida, where he was questioned by the FBI. We are sorry for the misinformation. A federal law enforcement source now tells CNN that Bukhari passed an FBI polygraph and is not considered a suspect. Through his attorney, Bukhari says that he is helping authorities. Ameer Bukhari died in a small plane crash last year.

Some of those involved in the plot left suicide notes, but they are not believed to have been the hijackers, a government source told The Associated Press. It was unclear whether those who left the notes actually killed themselves.
9
Cairo Times - 9/27/01
He also claimed that his son had called him two days after the attack, and described it as "a normal conversation." But he snarled when asked to give further details. Asked what country Muhammad had called from, he said, "The name of the country isn't written on the phone." Asked where Muhammad was now, he said, "Ask Mossad."

order Mohamed Atta and the Venice Flying Circus, the real story of the Hijackers
Video shows Atta was not suicidal, as he pays bills and returns rentals.
10
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-092101probe.story
Los Angeles Times - 9/21/01
A man by the same name is a pilot, whose father is a Saudi diplomat in Bombay. "I personally talked to both father and son today," said Gaafar Allagany, head of the Saudi Embassy's information center.
11
Saudi Gazette 9/18/01 and The Khaleej Times 9/20/01
Marwan al-Shehhi is still alive in Morocco
12
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/20/attack/main322092.shtml
CBS - Bin Laden Names Hijackers On Tape Dec. 20, 2001
He would identify only three: Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Wail Alshehri. Alshehri was on American Airlines flight 11, one of the planes that hit the Twin Towers at the World Trade Center in New York; Alhamzi and Alhamzi were on American Airlines flight 77, which hit the Pentagon.

Bin Laden's "smoking gun" video names living, uninvolved people? This makes no sense!
This is just the beginning, this "confession" video is full of abnormalities.
13
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1556096.stm
BBC- The last moments of Flight 11
The FBI has named five hijackers on board Flight 11, whereas Ms Sweeney spotted only four. Also, the seat numbers she gave were different from those registered in the hijackers' names.
14
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm
U.S. Department of Justice
Federal Bueau of Investigation - Hijackers
15
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1553754.stm
BBC - FBI probes hijackers' identities 9/21/01
It believes that some of the hijackers used false identities, possibly even names of people who are still alive, which could significantly complicate the manhunt.
16
http://www.sun- sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sns-worldtrade-jarrah- lat.story
Los Angeles Times - 10/23/01 - Friends of terror suspect say allegations make no sense
By Carol J. Williams Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
...Ziad and Salim ... left Lebanon together April 4, 1996, at the age of 20, heading to the eastern German town of Greifswald in pursuit of both an education and a good time.

Jarrah and the other three men named by the FBI as hijackers...initially came to be on the list of 19 because they "have been identified as having 'Arabic' names

http://web.archive.org/web/20010925123748/boston.com/dailyglobe2/268/nation/Hija ck_suspect_lived_a_life_or_a_lie%2B.shtml
Boston Globe - Hijack suspect lived a life, or a lie - 9/25/01
Although a Brooklyn apartment lease from 1995-1996 bears Ziad Jarrah's name - and landlords there have identified his photograph - his family insists he was in Beirut at the time.

How was he in Brooklyn and Lebanon at the same time?

..two days before the hijacking, his nephew called and told the family he'd be coming home for a cousin's wedding in mid-September. "He said he had even bought a new suit for the occasion."

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/cia.hijacker/index.html
CNN 8/1/02 - September 11 hijacker questioned in January 2001
The CIA suspected Ziad Jarrah had been in Afghanistan and wanted him questioned because of "his suspected involvement in terrorist activities," UAE sources said.

A CIA spokesman vigorously denied that the CIA knew anything about Jarrah before September 11 or had anything do with his questioning in Dubai.
17
The New Yorker - What Went Wrong
by Seymour Hersh - 10/1/01
Many of the investigators believe that some of the initial clues that were uncovered about the terrorists' identities and preparations, such as flight manuals, were meant to be found. A former high- level intelligence official told me, "Whatever trail was left was left deliberately--for the F.B.I. to chase."

In interviews over the past two weeks, a number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked. "It's so huge. He couldn't have done it alone." A senior military officer told me that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States, a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved.
18
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp- dyn/articles/A19549-2001Sep24.html
Washington Post - 9/25/01 - Some Light Shed On Saudi Suspects - A12
Still, the father of Alghamdi told Al Watan that the picture provided by the FBI was not that of his son. "It has no resemblance to him at all," he said.
19
http://www.newsday.com/ny- usflight232380680sep23.story
Tracing Trail Of Hijackers - By Thomas Frank - 9/23/01
At Freeway Airport in Bowie, Md., 20 miles west of Washington, flight instructor Sheri Baxter instantly recognized the name of alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour when the FBI released a list of 19 suspects in the four hijackings. Hanjour, the only suspect on Flight 77 the FBI listed as a pilot, had come to the airport one month earlier seeking to rent a small plane.... However, when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took....Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. .....chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14365-2001Sep11.html
Washington Post - On Flight 77: 'Our Plane Is Being Hijacked' - 9/12/01 - Page A01
...the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.... Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm... Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious.
20
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/09/attack/main521223.shtml
CBS - Hijackers Lived With FBI Informant - Sept. 9, 2002
Two of the Sept. 11 hijackers who lived in San Diego in 2000 rented a room from a man who reportedly worked as an undercover FBI informant....the FBI informant prayed with them and even helped one open a bank account.



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   13:18:27 ET  (19 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#634. To: FormerLurker (#633)

Bush Admits Majority of 911 Hijackers Were Saudis

Six years too late, George W. Bush has finally acknowledged that 15 of the 19 September 11 hijackers were citizens of the U.S. ally, Saudi Arabia:

From 2003 to 2007, the number of people who believed Bush’s lie dropped from 70 percent to 33 percent. Bush will never recover from the anger felt by the 37 percent of Americans who came to the realization that they had been lied to by their president.

“There’s a lot of really good people here [in Saudi Arabia]. Look, you can’t deny the fact that some, a majority, of the terrorists came from Saudi, but you should not condemn an entire society based upon the actions of a handful of killers.”

It would have been nice if the interviewer, ABC’s Terry Moran, had gotten Bush on the record about the Middle Eastern nation whose citizens were not represented among these 19 mass murderers.

The breakdown was 15 Saudis, one Egyptian, one Lebanese and two from the Union of Arab Emirates (UAE).

None were from Iraq.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   13:35:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#635. To: AGAviator (#634)

Thing is, at least 9 of them weren't the real people, if there WERE real people, "hijacking" those planes. So why are they still listed as hijackers?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   13:37:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#636. To: AGAviator (#634)

None were from Iraq.

And why did we invade Iraq and Afghanistan?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   13:38:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#637. To: wudidiz (#484)

Soft Porn Break.....

Roll Tide Roll!.

(Truthfully she looks stuck on herself.)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-12   13:51:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#638. To: AGAviator (#634)

I'll have to admit, I never thought this thread would have 634 responses. Of course, when you post pictures of beautiful women savaged by subhumans, it does get people's dander up...

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-12   14:08:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#639. To: FormerLurker (#632)

So who ARE the hijackers then, since those they claimed were the hijackers are still alive and report that their passports were lost or stolen?

Although the USG says the hijackers entered the US on legal passports, it wouldn't be surprising if some tried to cover their tracks somehow by taking the names, possibly even ID's, of people who resembled them. Though the Saudis say this didn't happen.

Also there are Arabic names very common among many people, similar to "John Smith" in the US. So one "Mohammed So and So" can have another person with the same name but a be different person and from a different family.

Finally aren't consistent translations of Arabic to English. Just the first name "Muhammed" can be spelled "Muhammad," "Mohammed," "Mahmud," etc and all these will show up separately in a computer which is very picky about spelling and treats each spelling of the same name as a separate person. Similar spelling variations exist for many different other first and last names.

Since Arabic does not use the Latin alphabet there isn't a perfect overlap between the 2 languages and their spelling and pronunciation conventions. So there is room for different name variations especially when done by clerical level people not focusing on their job's details.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   14:33:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#640. To: Turtle (#638)

Of course, when you post pictures of beautiful women savaged by subhumans, it does get people's dander up...

Whenever I see one of those photos, my very first thought is "Are they real?" About 95% of the time they aren't.

Implants are cheating.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   14:34:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#641. To: AGAviator (#639) (Edited)

Finally aren't consistent translations of Arabic to English. Just the first name "Muhammed" can be spelled "Muhammad," "Mohammed," "Mahmud," etc and all these will show up separately in a computer which is very picky about spelling and treats each spelling of the same name as a separate person. Similar spelling variations exist for many different other first and last names.

While there are many Smith or Jones in the US, not all have the same street address, occupation, and photo.

The alleged hijackers share not only the same name, but street address, occupation, and photo as the people who are still alive.

In other words, they are the same people.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   16:22:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#642. To: AGAviator (#639) (Edited)

Since Arabic does not use the Latin alphabet there isn't a perfect overlap between the 2 languages and their spelling and pronunciation conventions. So there is room for different name variations especially when done by clerical level people not focusing on their job's details.

From the UK Telegraph

Revealed: the men with stolen identities

 

THEIR names were flashed around the world as suicide hijackers who carried out the attacks on America. But yesterday four innocent men told how their identities had been stolen by Osama bin Laden's teams to cover their tracks.

The men - all from Saudi Arabia - spoke of their shock at being mistakenly named by the FBI as suicide terrorists. None of the four was in the United States on September 11 and all are alive in their home country.

The Telegraph obtained the first interviews with the men since they learnt that they were on the FBI's list of hijackers who died in the crashes in New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.

All four said that they were "outraged" to be identified as terrorists. One has never been to America and another is a Saudi Airlines pilot who was on a training course in Tunisia at the time of the attacks.

Saudi Airlines said it was considering legal action against the FBI for seriously damaging its reputation and that of its pilots. The FBI released the list of 19 suicide terrorists three days after the attacks.

The statement said that the 19 "have been identified as hijackers aboard the four airliners". Photographs and personal details were published around the world with an appeal for "information about these individuals, even though they are presumed dead".

The Saudi Airlines pilot, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, 25, and Abdulaziz Al- Omari, an engineer from Riyadh, are furious that the hijackers' "personal details" - including name, place, date of birth and occupation - matched their own.

Mr Al-Ghamdi was named as a terrorist on the United Airlines flight that crashed in Pennsylvania - a plane said by some experts to have been heading for the White House.

He first knew that he was on the FBI's list when he was told by a colleague. Speaking from Tunisia, he said: "I was completely shocked. For the past 10 months I have been based in Tunis with 22 other pilots learning to fly an Airbus 320. The FBI provided no evidence of my presumed involvement in the attacks.

"You cannot imagine what it is like to be described as a terrorist - and a dead man - when you are innocent and alive." The airline was angry too. Officials brought Mr Al-Ghamdi back to Saudi Arabia last week for a 10-day holiday to avoid arrest or interrogation.

An official said: "We are consulting lawyers about what action to take to protect the reputation of our pilots." Mr Al-Ghamdi faced further embarrassment when CNN, the American television network, flashed a photograph of him around the world, naming him as a hijack suspect.

The FBI had published his personal details but with a photograph of somebody else, presumably a hijacker who had "stolen" his identity. CNN, however, showed a picture of the real Mr Al-Ghamdi.

He said that CNN had probably got the picture from the Flight Safety flying school he attended in Florida. CNN has since broadcast a clarification saying that the photograph may not be that of the accused.

Mr Al-Omari, who was accused of hijacking the American Airlines plane that smashed into the the World Trade Centre's north tower, said that he was at his desk at the Saudi telecommunications authority in Riyadh when the attacks took place.

He said: "I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this."

Mr Al-Omari said his passport was stolen when his apartment in Denver, Colorado, was burgled in 1995. He had been studying engineering at Denver University since 1993. He was given a new passport in Riyadh on December 31, 1995 and returned to America to resume his studies in January 1996. After graduating last year he returned to Riyadh to join the electricity authority and later moved to the telecommunications authority.

The other two men accused of being terrorists are Salem Al-Hamzi and Ahmed Al-Nami. Mr Al-Hamzi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbou after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon.

He said: "I have never been to the United States and have not been out of Saudi Arabia in the past two years." The FBI described him as 21 and said that his possible residences were Fort Lee or Wayne, both in New Jersey.

Mr Al-Nami, 33, from Riyadh, an administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines, said that he was in Riyadh when the terrorists struck.

He said: "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked."

He had never lost his passport and found it "very worrying" that his identity appeared to have been "stolen" and published by the FBI without any checks. The FBI had said his "possible residence" was Delray Beach in Florida.

Last night the FBI admitted that there was some doubt about the identities of some of the suspects. A spokesman said: "The identification process has been complicated by the fact that many Arabic family names are similar. It is also possible that the hijackers used false identities."

The spokesman declined to say whether the FBI would apologise but added: "If we have made mistakes then obviously that would be regrettable but this is a big and complicated investigation."

When the list was published Robert Mueller, the FBI director, said that it was "fairly confident" that the names were not aliases.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   16:31:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#643. To: FormerLurker (#641)

In other words, they are the same people.

Why did the Saudi government first deny, then later acknowlge to US media that 15 out of 19 hijackers, accused of executing suicide attacks that totally shocked most Westerners, were Saudis, if they weren't. What possible benefit could they get from saying this?

Then 6 years later GW Bush himself said the same, then quickly trying to gloss it over adding you can't judge an entire country by the actions of a few people - though he did precisely that with Iraq and Afghanistan. What benefit does the USG get when its leader states the terrorist attackers are from an ally, not some madmen, and not from an invaded country?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   16:39:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#644. To: AGAviator (#643) (Edited)

Why did the Saudi government first deny, then later acknowlge to US media that 15 out of 19 hijackers, accused of executing suicide attacks that totally shocked most Westerners, were Saudis, if they weren't. What possible benefit could they get from saying this?

You'd have to ask them, but if I were to guess, it's because they didn't fear any repercussions if they went along with the story...

What it comes down to is that dead men don't walk and talk, and that's what these so-called hijackers are doing.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-12   16:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#645. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#644)

And of course never addressed by AGGravator is that the FBI had identified all 19 by 9-12 and yet none of those names show up on the passenger manifests, nor are there any videos of any of them boarding the flights used for the Op.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-12   19:26:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#646. To: Original_Intent (#645)

Being trained by a spooky muslim outfit, no less. Shivers...

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-12   19:40:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#647. To: Dakmar (#646)

They were Magic Muslims and were protected from being seen on the Airport Surveillance Video because Osama Ben Forgotten waved his Magick Cell Phone in the air THREE TIMES in the vastness of the remote caves of Tora Bora.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-12   21:05:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#648. To: Original_Intent (#647)

Yeah, and they knew which planes had the Magickal Jet Fuel™ too! It gets scarier and scarier, or would if they had ever made more than one batch of that. Another 100,000 gallons of that would have taken down every building in America, maybe the world.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   21:24:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#649. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#645) (Edited)

And of course never addressed by AGGravator is that the FBI had identified all 19 by 9-12 and yet none of those names show up on the passenger manifests, nor are there any videos of any of them boarding the flights used for the Op.

And of course not addressed by Original_Indent is the fact that 3 separate stewardesses made phone calls describing "Middle Eastern" passengers and giving their seat numbers, which were recorded.

And the fact some 30 passengers made cell phone calls between takeover and crashes, including Barbara Olson, describing the attacks, the injuries and deaths caused by the attackers, and in the case of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, plans by some rugby and football players to rush the cockpit and go head to head with the "muscle" hijackers who were supposed to control the passengers, to overpower the hijackers and get back control.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   21:40:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#650. To: farmfriend, FormerLurker, christine, wudidiz, all, cuz I'm too lazy to type or copy names (#560)

Yeah I've heard it was all about the pipeline before but when you look at things like Iran Contra etc it is always about the drugs.

Iraq was about a pipeline:

www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/ED04Ak01.html

Apr 4, 2003

In the pipeline: More regime change
By Hooman Peimani

An Israeli daily, Ha'aretz, has reported that Israel is seriously considering restarting a strategically important oil pipeline that once transferred oil from the Iraqi city of Mosul to Israel's northern port of Haifa. Given the Israeli claim of a positive US approach to the plan, the Israeli project provides grounds for a theory that the ongoing war against Iraq is in part a joint US, British and Israeli design for reshaping the Middle East to serve their particular interests, including their oil requirements.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-12   21:43:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#651. To: Original_Intent (#647)

They were Magic Muslims and were protected from being seen on the Airport Surveillance Video because Osama Ben Forgotten waved his Magick Cell Phone in the air THREE TIMES in the vastness of the remote caves of Tora Bora.

You forgot how he clicked his heels three times and told Toto, his camel, that they weren't in Mecca anymore.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-12   21:56:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#652. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#647) (Edited)

Magick Cell Phone in the air THREE TIMES in the vastness of the remote caves of Tora Bora.

It is your own cultural backwardness, hubris, and ignorance, which projects a "cave dweller" mentality onto Bin Laden, when OBL is in fact an ascetic, extremely intelligent and disciplined, and religiously dogmatic per his own interpretations of Koran.

And the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced.

OBL has lost tactical battles here and there, but is fully proceeding on his strategic plan to catalyze the economic collapse of America ala the former Soviet Union, instigate the collapse of America's leading role as a principal determinant in world affairs, and cause America end up with a fragmented society within which further attacks will be possible.

OBL has never claimed to be the head of a major force. He sees al Qaida as providing motivating, ideological, and sometimes logistical support where needed.

There is no evidence he is dead, and people who have known him far better than the TV and intenet fixated boobs, say he is war-gaming the next associates' attacks to be even more spectacular than the 911 incidents.

And following his past forms, he has given public warning which he believes he is obligated by the Koran to do. Just as he gave continuing warnings about 911 after the 1998 destructions of the 2 US African embassies. And he is in no great rush, not wishing his acolytes to make the same mistakes which caused the 911 attacks to be less than 100% successful as planned.

2008: OBL Planning Greater Attacks Against US

Osama bin Laden is planning an attack against the United States that will "outdo by far" September 11, 2001, an Arab newspaper in London has reported.

And, a former senior Yemeni al-Qaeda operative said, the terrorist organisation has entered a "positive phase", reinforcing specific training camps around the world that will lead the next "wave of action" against the West.

The warning, on the front page of an Arabic newspaper published in London, Al- Quds Al-Arabi - and reported widely in the major Italian papers - quotes a person described as being "very close to al-Qaeda" in Yemen.

The paper is edited by Abdel al-Bari Atwan, who is said to have been the last journalist to interview bin Laden, in 1996.

Bin Laden is himself closely following preparations for an attack against the US and aims to "change the face of world politics and economics", the report says.

The former operative is quoted as saying that "this will be shown by the fact that we now control a major part of the south of Somalia".

He says he remains in contact with current chiefs of the organisation in Yemen and that, only six months ago, bin Laden sent a message to all jihad cells in the Arab world, asking them not to interact with their governments or local political parties and to deny any request for mediation or formal talks.

The source also said that, during the next few days, the terrorist organisation might send a sign of its violent intentions.

The warning has emerged at the same time as publication of a report leaked to London's Telegraph newspaper, which reveals that a document drawn up by the intelligence branch of the Ministry of Defence says that thousands of extremists are active in Britain.

The document says the operatives are predominantly British-born and aged between 18 and 30. Many are believed to have been trained in overseas terrorist camps.

Security officials are convinced al-Qaeda cells will attempt another "spectacular" inside Britain with major transport centres, such as airports and train stations, the most likely targets, the Telegraph reports.

Other targets include the Houses of Parliament, Whitehall and Buckingham and St James' palaces, with the threat level described as "severe". Right now they're shoring up their base. They're in no hurry, just as from 1998 to 2001 there wasn't much activity until the day of action occurred.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work. Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-12   22:05:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#653. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, all (#649)

Me: And of course never addressed by AGGravator is that the FBI had identified all 19 by 9-12 and yet none of those names show up on the passenger manifests, nor are there any videos of any of them boarding the flights used for the Op.

AGGravator: And of course not addressed by Original_Indent is the fact that 3 separate stewardesses made phone calls describing "Middle Eastern" passengers and giving their seat numbers, which were recorded.

And the fact some 30 passengers made cell phone calls between takeover and crashes, including Barbara Olson, describing the attacks, the injuries and deaths caused by the attackers, and in the case of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania, plans by some rugby and football players to rush the cockpit and go head to head with the "muscle" hijackers who were supposed to control the passengers, to overpower the hijackers and get back control.

Diversionary tactic.

You did not address my point. It is a neat ploy - a casual glance might lead the casual observer to conclude the point was being addressed but it was not.

What do so called, technically impossible at the time, "cell phone calls*" have to do with how the FBI was able to identify 19 alleged hijackers by the afternoon of 9-12 whose names did not appear on the Passenger Manifests nor were their images captured on any Airport Surveillance Videos? The answer is of course nothing. It is nothing more than rhetorical sleight of hand to avoid the point while substituting another more manageable topic. I'm not biting. As well a Stewardess call describing "Middle Eastern" passengers is again a "will o' the wisp" as when one analyzes it for actual information content it is simply a physical description with no other essential identifying information. "Middle Eastern" looking is such a large universe of individuals, well over a billion people, that it is at best nothing more than a starting point which tells us nothing as to the identity of the hijackers. That is before we even get to the technical impossibilities of the alleged calls which I am not going into as there is ream upon ream of information regarding the dubious reports of calls. There are so many contradictions that have since come out as to render them valueless as evidence of much of anything. Just as amusing was Orrin Hatch's pronouncement, on the Capitol Steps, the evening of 911 that this had to be the work of the nefarious Fu Manchu Osama Bin Laden. How did he know it was Osama Bin Laden the evening of 911? That is some mighty fast detective work, OR a cover legend he had already been briefed on.

*Ted Olson's Report of Phone Calls from Barbara Olson on 9/11: Three Official Denials

Excerpt: "Olson’s Self-Contradictions

Olson began this process of undermining by means of self-contradictions. He first told CNN, as we have seen, that his wife had “called him twice on a cell phone.” But he contradicted this claim on September 14, telling Hannity and Colmes that she had reached him by calling the Department of Justice collect. Therefore, she must have been using the “airplane phone,” he surmised, because “she somehow didn’t have access to her credit cards.”4 However, this version of Olson’s story, besides contradicting his first version, was even self-contradictory, because a credit card is needed to activate a passenger-seat phone.

Later that same day, moreover, Olson told Larry King Live that the second call from his wife suddenly went dead because “the signals from cell phones coming from airplanes don’t work that well.”5 After that return to his first version, he finally settled on the second version, saying that his wife had called collect and hence must have used “the phone in the passengers’ seats” because she did not have her purse.6

By finally settling on this story, Olson avoided a technological pitfall. Given the cell phone system employed in 2001, high-altitude cell phone calls from airliners were impossible, or at least virtually so (Olson’s statement that “the signals from cell phones coming from airplanes don’t work that well” was a considerable understatement). The technology to enable cell phone calls from high-altitude airline flights was not created until 2004.7

However, Olson’s second story, besides being self-contradictory, was contradicted by American Airlines. ..."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-12   23:12:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#654. To: James Deffenbach (#651)

They were Magic Muslims and were protected from being seen on the Airport Surveillance Video because Osama Ben Forgotten waved his Magick Cell Phone in the air THREE TIMES in the vastness of the remote caves of Tora Bora.

You forgot how he clicked his heels three times and told Toto, his camel, that they weren't in Mecca anymore.

LOL!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-12   23:14:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#655. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter (#653) (Edited)

One of the events immediately after 9/11 was the 9/12 flyout of the Saudi Bin Ladin family PRIVATE JET back to Saudi Arabia.

It was the only private plane to fly in the entire nation that day.

The order to allow that civilian flight EXCEPTION during that historic flight restriction WHEN NO AMERICAN PRIVATE OR COMMERCIAL flights could fly came from whose authority?

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-12   23:21:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#656. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, all (#652)

Me: ...Magick Cell Phone in the air THREE TIMES in the vastness of the remote caves of Tora Bora.

AGGravator: It is your own cultural backwardness, hubris, and ignorance, which projects a "cave dweller" mentality onto Bin Laden, when OBL is in fact an ascetic, extremely intelligent and disciplined, and religiously dogmatic per his own interpretations of Koran.

And the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced.

Oh, spare me. Of course to sell the suckers Osama, Tim Osman, Bin Laden has to be built up as this mythical figure on par with Sax Rohmer's "Villainous Dr. Fu Manchu". Of course wasting time on on this line of unreasoning is just that - a waste of time because I am not disputing that Osama Bin Laden was not a very intelligent man. What I am disputing is that he did not have the wherewithal to pull off this monstrous Psychological Operation to create a Psychological Framework where the general citizenry of the U.S. could be sold a series of wars, costing many lives and much treasure, that was not in their best interests.

I'm not buying what you're selling, and I am not going to waste my time by explaining for you in words of one syllable why your post is so fiendishly funny.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-12   23:22:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#657. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#655)

One of the events immediately after 9/11 was the 9/12 flyout of the Saudi Bin Ladin family PRIVATE JET back to Saudi Arabia.

It was the only private plane to fly in the entire nation that day.

The order to allow that civilian flight EXCEPTION during that historic flight restriction WHEN NO AMERICAN PRIVATE OR COMMERCIAL flights could fly came from whose authority?

Yes another piece in the puzzle that does not fit with the "Official Fairy Tale™".

No one has ever really given a convincing reason for it nor who gave the order and how fast it occurred. It is like one of Imus's "What doesn't fit and why?" routines.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-12   23:26:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#658. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, critter, X-15 (#656) (Edited)

And the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced.

Oh, spare me. Of course to sell the suckers Osama, Tim Osman, Bin Laden has to be built up as this mythical figure on par with Sax Rohmer's "Villainous Dr. Fu Manchu". Of course wasting time on on this line of unreasoning is just that - a waste of time

Name one person who has publicly announced, over more than two decades, his visceral dislike of US policies, his subsequently inspired successful attacks around the world including and not limited to American military forces, the escalating nature of these attacks with each new "operation" being more complex and causing more casualties and damage than the last, and his 2004 prediction that America is headed towards bankruptcy which we're staring in the face 6 years later.

And all this is proceeding - including but not limited to bankruptcy and nation implosion - in spite of OBL's being a man without a state, without an army, and a will-of-the-wisp organization that has no formal base. And the ability to use pragmatic, low tech, effective tactics to make these killings and bombings work at minimal cost to his side and massive cost to the other side.

Instead of seeing this, as usual you're devoid of substantive arguments so you go to your principal tactic of windbaggy hyperbole and distortion. And warped English. Which you never hesitate to attribute to others instead of yourself.

I said "the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced."

You mistranslate these 11 simple English words into a grandiose hyperbole of "a mythical figure on par with Sax Rohmer's 'Villainous Dr. Fu Manchu'."

Where the fuck did you learn to speak English, anyway? What is the connection between these two disconnected phrases, one that I said, and one that you totally mis translate from it, then use to argue against your own misinterpretation, not anything I stated.

You're a pompous windbag who can't even stay on point or reply to specifics. Instead of lecturing me on English and dictionaries - which I'm far better at using than you - dial down your inflated wordy narcissistic replies and "Keep It Simple, Stupid."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   0:03:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#659. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#657) (Edited)

No one has ever really given a convincing reason for it nor who gave the order and how fast it occurred. It is like one of Imus's "What doesn't fit and why?" routines.

Yes they have, it's voluminously documented outside of the stagnant ponds holding k00kfluent, and as usual the Twoffertwits ignore anything that doesn't keep them in their go-nowhere "holding pattern" until they run out of fuel, crash and burn.

As of 11:00 EST on September 13, all US commercial airspace was cleared for normal operations, and the bin Laden family aircraft joined hundreds of other commercial aircraft resuming national and international flights. And not until the airspace was cleared for commercial traffic.

The bin Laden family did not get any preferential treatment. They had a flight plan and they were approved to follow it. Prior to departure some bin Ladin family members were questioned, however OBL had been separated from his family for over a decade, was subject to imprisonment if he went to Saudi, and there was no reason to believe he had active connections with anyone on board the departing flight.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   0:20:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#660. To: AGAviator (#658)

Hey stoogy

What's it like being a low-life bottom-feeding gov stooge? Have you made GS 5 yet?

I feel sorry for you, so watch the shows, I'll feel better

WWGPD? - (What Would General Pinochet Do?)

Flintlock  posted on  2010-07-13   0:20:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#661. To: Flintlock, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#660) (Edited)

I've never linked Jesse Ventura, Six Percent Loser .

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   0:32:49 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#662. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, crittee (#653) (Edited)

As well a Stewardess call describing "Middle Eastern" passengers is again a "will o' the wisp" as when one analyzes it for actual information content it is simply a physical description with no other essential identifying information. "Middle Eastern" looking is such a large universe of individuals, well over a billion people, that it is at best nothing more than a starting point which tells us nothing as to the identity of the hijackers

There were 3 stewardess calls, not one. All gave seat numbers from which tickets could be tracked, then credit card purchases tracked, then buyers of tickets identified.

Regarding the "impossibility" of cell phone calls in airborne aircraft, as usual you're full of it.

The main reason for not having cell phone calls is the aircraft companies don't want miscellaneous private communications generating electromagnetic signals that could possibly interfere with sensitive aircraft navigation equipment and communications.

911 Conspiracy Theories

Marvin Sirbu, professor of engineering and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University said on September 14, 2001, that "The fact of the matter is that cell phones can work in almost all phases of a commercial flight."[118]

And ain't it a hoot that the same people who're claiming that anywhere between 10 and 100 tons of esoteric materials, detonated by unknown state-of-the-art methods which didn't leave a single trace, induced the 3 largest building failures in US history and 8 years later have still not revealed their working details.

But it's "impossible" that some passengers on an airborne jet couldn't take their simple cell phones with them into the plane lavatories and make some calls to their family members, which would make their family members liars if this didn't happen. No, cell phone technology simply isn't advanced for that to happen. But undefined "nano-thermite" technology can destroy entire buildings without leaving a single trace of how it actually functioned.

You're beyond stupid and pathetic.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   0:52:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#663. To: AGAviator (#661)

One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis.

======================================

Amounts of 'energy and effort?'

Try the longest and costliest war in America history.

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   0:53:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#664. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator, all (#653)

What do so called, technically impossible at the time, "cell phone calls*" have to do with how the FBI was able to identify 19 alleged hijackers by the afternoon of 9-12 whose names did not appear on the Passenger Manifests nor were their images captured on any Airport Surveillance Videos? The answer is of course nothing.

Easier than addressing your point though.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   1:05:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#665. To: Original_Intent (#656)

AGGravator: It is your own cultural backwardness, hubris, and ignorance, which projects a "cave dweller" mentality onto Bin Laden, when OBL is in fact an ascetic, extremely intelligent and disciplined, and religiously dogmatic per his own interpretations of Koran.

And the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced.

Oh, spare me. Of course to sell the suckers Osama, Tim Osman, Bin Laden has to be built up as this mythical figure on par with Sax Rohmer's "Villainous Dr. Fu Manchu".

Osama Bin Goldstein.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   1:06:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#666. To: Original_Intent, All (#665)

666

The number of the post.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   1:13:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#667. To: wudidiz (#666)

The number of the post.

You beast!! lol

Uuuhhhggg.......this thread is an exercise in futility.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   1:17:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#668. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, all (#658)

Name one person who has publicly announced, over more than two decades, his visceral dislike of US policies, his subsequently inspired successful attacks around the world including and not limited to American military forces, the escalating nature of these attacks with each new "operation" being more complex and causing more casualties and damage than the last, and his 2004 prediction that America is headed towards bankruptcy which we're staring in the face 6 years later.

How charming. Lessee, is that the same Osama Bin Laden, one of the heirs to the Bin Laden fortune (whose brother Salem was a business partner of Geee Duhbya), was a CIA Contract Agent, and is Jewish by Talmudic Law? There are Americans who are just as critical of U.S. foreign policy as ol' Tim Osman and have made basically the same criticism of the perversion of our foreign policy. Are you expecting them to turn off NORAD, arrange cover exercises, and read "My Pet Goat" while their mind controlled slaves run remote controlled airplanes into buildings packed with demolition charges?

You are just too funny.

I said "the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced."

You mistranslate these 11 simple English words into a grandiose hyperbole of "a mythical figure on par with Sax Rohmer's 'Villainous Dr. Fu Manchu'."

Mr. Hyperbole meet Mr. Satire. Your comment was so deliciously "over the top" funny than I could not but meet it with an appropriate comparison.

Where the fuck did you learn to speak English, anyway?

In a good school, in a little hick town that had never heard of the "modern" curriculum and so as a consequence we were taught a different brand of English - Educated English.

...Instead of lecturing me on English and dictionaries - which I'm far better at using than you...

LOL! Please point out where I was lecturing you on "English and dictionaries"? Another of your hyperbolic confabulations. Just doing a quick count I have about 18 dictionaries (my current favorite is the Oxford American Dictionary) in my current collection, a couple of Atlases, two Historical Atlases, and a variety of other reference books including "Miss Manner's Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior" which I would highly commend to your reading list.

Have a jolly time old bean.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   1:22:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#669. To: abraxas (#667)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   1:29:14 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#670. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, all (#664) (Edited)

Me: What do so called, technically impossible at the time, "cell phone calls*" have to do with how the FBI was able to identify 19 alleged hijackers by the afternoon of 9-12 whose names did not appear on the Passenger Manifests nor were their images captured on any Airport Surveillance Videos? The answer is of course nothing.

wud: Easier than addressing your point though.

True. He's still twisting and turning and trying get me engaged in trying to refute his "Rent-a-Professor" on the cell calls. We could spend positively days debating the issue. Which he is welcome to do - he can play with himself.

I guess he thinks his disinfo tactics will allow him to get off the hook by trying to push the cell phone issue while evading the other. Ain't gonna happen.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   1:33:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#671. To: wudidiz (#669)

lol......Wud, you're smokin' what I'm rollin'.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   1:33:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#672. To: wudidiz (#669)

Most excellent. Consider it stolen.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   1:37:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#673. To: abraxas, Original_Intent (#671)

01:33:33


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   1:40:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#674. To: abraxas (#671)

Wud, you're smokin' what I'm rollin'.

Nooo no no

You're rollin' what I'm smokin'...


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   1:41:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#675. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, all (#665)

AGGravator: It is your own cultural backwardness, hubris, and ignorance, which projects a "cave dweller" mentality onto Bin Laden, when OBL is in fact an ascetic, extremely intelligent and disciplined, and religiously dogmatic per his own interpretations of Koran.

And the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced.

Me: Oh, spare me. Of course to sell the suckers Osama, Tim Osman, Bin Laden has to be built up as this mythical figure on par with Sax Rohmer's "Villainous Dr. Fu Manchu".

Wud: Osama Bin Goldstein.

Yes, another of the wily villains aliases. He's everywhere. All at once even.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   1:43:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#676. To: wudidiz (#673)

01:33:33

Must be synchronicity.......

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   1:45:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#677. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#655)

PRIVATE JET

Due to its size and aircraft type, your so-called "private jet" falls under all rules and regulations pertaining to "Commercial Aviation" flown by pilots with "Commercial Pilot" or "Airport Transport Pilot" Licenses

The distinction between "commercial" and "private" on September 13 2001 pertains to "private" owner-pilots with "Private Pilot Licenses" e.g. individuals who can fly Cessnas but can't haul people around for money.

Commercial pilots were allowed to fly on Sept 13. Private pilots were not.

The ownership of the aircraft was not the factor.

Do yourself a favor and don't listen to blather from subject matter idiots trying to pass itself off as knowledge.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   1:46:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#678. To: abraxas, wudidiz (#676)

01:33:33

Must be synchronicity.......

Or Osama Ben Goldstein.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   1:48:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#679. To: Original_Intent (#675)

That right there is a funny post. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   1:49:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#680. To: James Deffenbach (#622)

the members of the liar movement will believe anything the government tells them and for a small fee shout those lies from the roof tops if they also supply the talking points.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-13   1:50:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#681. To: Original_Intent (#678)

Quick, get under the bed!! That wiley cave dweller is everywhere.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   1:53:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#682. To: abraxas (#679)

Why thank you worthy madam. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   1:53:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#683. To: Original_Intent (#653) (Edited)

What do so called, technically impossible at the time, "cell phone calls*" have to do with how the FBI was able to identify 19 alleged hijackers by the afternoon of 9-12 whose names did not appear on the Passenger Manifests nor were their images captured on any Airport Surveillance Videos? The answer is of course nothing.

I already told you, the stewardesses gave seat numbers which gave ticket purchasers which gave buyers.

This is more direct information than passenger manifests.

Last but not least, jerkwad, the source materials the k00ksite use are "Victims Lists," which specifically exclude the hijackers, and not official "Passenger Manifests."

Busting 911 Myths: 'No Hijackers on the Passenger Manifests' Story Debunked

The problem here is that the CNN lists were not a manifest. The can be seen from the URL used by Dr Griffin, which tells us it's a "victims" list (that URL is now dead, web archive version here). Is it really surprising that suspected hijackers wouldn't be included? We'd say not, and a moment spent at the CNN site confirms this as true.

Visit the main Memorial page, click "about this site", and on 11th July 2007 we read this text:

This memorial lists those who died in New York City, Washington, D.C. and Pennsylvania when terrorists hijacked four U.S. planes on September 11, 2001. The list includes those listed as "confirmed dead" and "reported dead" by the Associated Press which defines the terms as follows:

CONFIRMED DEAD Includes victims who have been confirmed dead by a coroner's office or the Defense Department. It also includes those a court has declared legally dead, even if no body has been recovered. Once the court has made such a finding, a death certificate can be issued.

REPORTED DEAD Includes those whose deaths have been reported by family, employers, mortuaries, places of worship or by the airlines that listed them as aboard one of the four flights. Includes people for whom memorial services have been held, even if their bodies have not been recovered or positively identified. (Those identified by federal authorities as the hijackers are not included.

So "those identified by federal authorities as the hijackers are not included". Note also that the list came from press reports, not directly from the airlines. This is not an official manifest.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   1:55:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#684. To: abraxas (#681)

Quick, get under the bed!! That wiley cave dweller is everywhere.

And he's armed with a Magic Cellphone®.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   1:55:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#685. To: Original_Intent (#684) (Edited)

And he's armed with a Magic Cellphone®

And steal kidneys.

And a get out of Tora Bora Free card.

Why Binny must be the most diabolical mastermind this nation has ever known-- which is why the FBI opted not to seek his arrest for 911 crimes. I think they were scared.

And the single most lethal enemy mind the US has ever faced. (he used mind control to FORCE Bush to fly his family members home)

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   2:00:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#686. To: IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, FormerLurker, wudidiz, abraxas, all (#680)

the members of the liar movement will believe anything the government tells them and for a small fee shout those lies from the roof tops if they also supply the talking points.

And their briefing books/talking points have gotten better. The internet has now been salted with enough disinformation sites that they have manufactured their own "experts".

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.

Example: The False Memory Syndrome Foundation and American Family Foundation and American and Canadian Psychiatric Associations fall into this category, as their founding members and/or leadership include key persons associated with CIA Mind Control research. Read The Professional Paranoid or Phsychic Dictatorship in the U.S.A. by Alex Constantine for more information. Not so curious, then, that (in a perhaps oversimplified explanation here) these organizations focus on, by means of their own "research findings", that there is no such thing as Mind Control.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   2:00:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#687. To: abraxas (#685)

And he's armed with a Magic Cellphone®

And steal kidneys.

And a get out of Tora Bora Free card.

Why Binny must be the most diabolical mastermind this nation has ever known-- which is why the FBI opted not to seek his arrest for 911 crimes. I think they were scared.

Aha! That explains it. The FBI is quivering in fear that Osama might turn the Magic Cellphone® on them. The pusillanimous little worms.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   2:05:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#688. To: Original_Intent (#687)

The pusillanimous little worms.

The pusillanimous little worms were also under the dastardly and diabolical conrol of the most diabolical mastermind this nation has ever known. There are no bounds to the ultimate mind control of Binny.

Call me paranoid if you must, but I think we might also be under the dastardly and diabolical control of Binny. He even stubbed my toe today. It's true.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   2:09:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#689. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#655)

One of the events immediately after 9/11 was the 9/12 flyout of the Saudi Bin Ladin family PRIVATE JET back to Saudi Arabia.

It was the only private plane to fly in the entire nation that day.

Snopes.Com: Urban Legends - Flights of Fancy Debunking

Claim:   Secret flights whisked bin Laden family members and Saudi nationals out of the U.S. immediately after September 11 while a general ban on air travel was still in effect, and before the FBI had any opportunity to question any of the passengers.

Status:   False.

Origins:   In the wake of the September 11 terrorist attacks on America, the Federal Aviation Administration immediately ordered all flights in the United September 13. (Even then, for that first day commercial carriers were mostly either completing the interrupted flights of September 11 or repositioning empty aircraft in anticipation of the resumption of full service. New passenger flights did not generally resume until the 14th.)

During that two-day period of full lock-down, only the military and specially FAA-authorized flights that delivered life-saving medical necessities were in the air. The enforcement of the empty skies directive was so stringent that even after the United Network for Organ Sharing sought and gained FAA clearance to use charter aircraft on September 12 to effect time-critical deliveries of organs for transplant, one of its flights carrying a human heart was forced to the ground in Bellingham, Washington, 80 miles short of its Seattle destination, by two Navy F/A-18 fighters. (The organ completed its journey after being transferred to a helicopter.)

The claim that bin Laden family members (and other Saudis) were allowed to secretly fly out of the U.S. and back to Saudi Arabia while a government- imposed ban on air travel was in effect, all without any intervention by the FBI, has since been negated by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States (also known as the "9/11 Commission"). In their final report, the commission noted:

Three questions have arisen with respect to the departure of Saudi nationals from the United States in the immediate aftermath of 9/11: (1) Did any flights of Saudi nationals take place before national airspace reopened on September 13, 2001? (2) Was there any political intervention to facilitate the departure of Saudi nationals? (3) Did the FBI screen Saudi nationals thoroughly before their departure?

First, we found no evidence that any flights of Saudi nationals, domestic or international, took place before the reopening of national airspace on the morning of September 13, 2001. To the contrary, every flight we have identified occurred after national airspace reopened.

Second, we found no evidence of political intervention. We found no evidence that anyone at the White House above the level of [National Security Council official] Richard Clarke participated in a decision on the departure of Saudi nationals ... The President and Vice President told us they were not aware of the issue at all until it surfaced much later in the media. None of the officials we interviewed recalled any intervention or direction on this matter from any political appointee.

Third, we believe that the FBI conducted a satisfactory screening of Saudi nationals who left the United State on charter flights. The Saudi government was advised of and agree to the FBI's requirements that passengers be identified and checked against various databases before the flights departed. The Federal Aviation Administration representative working in the FBI operations center made sure that the FBI was aware of the flights of Saudi nationals and was able to screen the passengers before they were allowed to depart.

The FBI interviewed all persons of interest on these flights prior to their departures. They concluded that none of the passengers was connected to the 9/11 attacks and have since found no evidence to change that conclusion. Our own independent review of the Saudi nationals involved confirms that no one with known links to terrorism departed on these flights.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   2:26:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#690. To: AGAviator (#683)

Your point is granted. There is not sufficient evidence available to cross check.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   2:27:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#691. To: abraxas (#688)

The pusillanimous little worms.

The pusillanimous little worms were also under the dastardly and diabolical conrol of the most diabolical mastermind this nation has ever known. There are no bounds to the ultimate mind control of Binny.

Call me paranoid if you must, but I think we might also be under the dastardly and diabolical control of Binny. He even stubbed my toe today. It's true.

And I bet he was behind the sinking of the Andrea Doria too.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   2:30:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#692. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, abraxas (#689)

Snopes is not a reliable source.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   2:55:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#693. To: wudidiz, turtle, buckeroo, X-15 (#692)

Snopes is not a reliable source.

Haha..

After seeing their skewering of the Obama BC efforts, including their conclusions that Philip Berg submitted forged evidence, a judge's statement that Berg's arguments bordered on the unreasonable, mentioning both Hawaii newspapers putting announcements of a Hawaii birth into their publications, and quoting the recollections of one person who personally knew the delivering obstetrician, I can see why.

But they still pwn you BC'ers, in that big bad 94% world the rest of us live in.....

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   4:29:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#694. To: Turtle (#36)

"What exactly do you think of some monkey who throws sulfuric acid in a beautiful woman's face because he can't have her......?"

I'm horrified as are you.

I was even more horrified when a schizo with a long mental health history pushed a beautiful woman in front of a subway train knowing that he'd be hospitalized instead of jailed with nurses fluffing his pillows instead of inmates bashing his brains in. (A Jew in NYC who murdered a Gentile no less. What did I expect, a lynching? Not likely....)

The sad truth is there are some seriously disturbed people out there (Dahmer, Gacy, Bundy, Steinberg, Einhorn, Ferguson) and the only way to understand their thinking is to be equally disturbed.

However violent my aversion to them may be (if I caught them in the act I'd quickly kill them without hesitation) if I arrested them after the fact I'd hand them over to the system that medicates and warehouses them.

There are few in our history who were sicker than Ed Gein, but he spent the rest of his life in custody and he presented no problems in an environment where his mischief was limited.

The world is brimming with emotionally retarded men who objectify women, and the result is that some cannot accept rejection. Some men believe that it's ok to maim or even kill women that make their little peckers "sad".

Given the present state of affairs I shudder to think how many there are walking among us. And, the Medieval practice of beating the demons out of people is just that-Medieval. Try not to let the reality of this tilt you over the edge. Otherwise, I won't relate to or understand your illness, either.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-13   4:59:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#695. To: AGAviator, ALL, EVERYONE, THIS MEANS YOU (#693)

But they still pwn you BC'ers, in that big bad 94% world the rest of us live in.....

Yeah, I guess you mean the 94 % like your flat earther ancestors.

The effort you expend to continue the governmental fabrication speaks to your disregard for the truth, the country and your pitiful little self.

Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces

noone222  posted on  2010-07-13   5:32:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#696. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, abraxas (#689)

Snopes?

http://killtown.911review.org/flight77/debunking/snopes.html

Due to a legal (and cowardly) threat by Snopes.com in February 2006, the original rebuttal of their appalling debunk attempt of Hunt the Boeing! had to be taken down.  You can read the copy of Snopes' complaint letter

here

This is the "legal" version.  I recommend you open up Snopes' debunking attempt in a separate window and put both windows side-by-side vertically when reading.  My own comments will be in red.

 
 

Snopes.com's debunking attempt starts out by saying that Thierry Meyssan's claim that the damage to the Pentagon on September 11 was caused by something other than a hijacked Boeing 757 is "false."

Of course, "false" is just their opinion.

Next they seem to try to denigrate his claim by saying he doesn't offer any "real explanation" for what "did."  Notice they italicized "did."

Why is it so important for Meyssan to offer an explanation of what did?  If there is evidence that something didn't, why would it be up to him to guess what did?  Shouldn't those questions be asked to the officials who told us what crashed there?  However, Meyssan does offer a theory that a missile hit the Pentagon instead.

 

 

Next Snopes attempts to answer the seven questions in Meyssan's Hunt the Boeing! website:

 

1) Can you explain how a Boeing 757-200, weighing nearly 100 tons and travelling at a minimum speed of 250 miles an hour only damaged the outside of the Pentagon?

Snopes answers that the Boeing 757 not only damaged the outside of the Pentagon, but caused damage to all five rings by offering this graphic drawing as their proof.

I think that it's quite humorous that they use a graphic drawing as proof, not only because it's a graphic, but the graphic is wrong!  First the graphic shows a grey line (which I guess is trying to show the trajectory of the 757) going straight up through the damaged section shown in red.  However, the 757 was said to have hit at a 45 deg angle.

Also, the graphic states that the 757 tore through five floors and all five rings.  However, the official version states that the 757 tore through only the 1st and 2nd floors and only up to the 3rd ring, ring C.

(Click graphic for full size.)

 

Next they show an article from 60 Minutes II which states the section the 757 hit had recently been reinforced during a renovation project and the article states that the 757 hit at "350 mph."

First, the speed of the plane hitting in that article, 350mph, is wrong.  The official speed was 530mph (perhaps they just got it backwards?)

"American Airlines Flight 77 crashed into the Pentagon, traveling at approximately 530 miles per hour."

- 9/11 Commission

Second, Snopes' doesn't see the amazing coincidence that this errant plane hit the only section of the Pentagon that was being retrofitted to "bolster it against attack" and that is was best section for the Pentagon to have been hit and the worst section for the hijackers to have hit.

"Luck — if it can be called that — had it that the terrorists aimed the Boeing 757 at the only part of the Pentagon that already had been renovated in an 11-year, $1.3 billion project meant to bolster it against attack.

That significantly limited the damage and loss of life by slowing the plane as it tore through the building and reducing the explosion's reach." - USA Today (1/01/02)

"Schwartz explained that renovations on the Pentagon began several years earlier and were nearing completion, particularly the section called Wedge 1, when the crash occurred.

He said the plane struck the building almost in the middle of the space where the renovation had been completed. Personnel had not completely reoccupied this area of the building.

"This contributed to the relatively low number of casualties," Schwartz said. "The number could have been far greater had the plane struck another portion of the building not affected by the renovation.” - Fort Meade/Army

 

Next they say exterior photographs are misleading and because they don't reveal what happened inside the building and shows a U.S. Army press release which says an "engine" from the 757 punched a 12-foot hole through the wall of the "second ring."

This is incorrect according to the Pentagon which said it was the plane’s nose that punched out a hole in the wall and did it in the wall of the 3rd ring, not the second.

 

Next they try to compare the Pentagon crash with the WTC crashes.  They state the wrong speed of the plane again and then state that the plane had some of it's energy "dissipated" after it struck the ground first.

Photos clearly show that the 757 did not hit the ground at all even with it's two large engines hanging underneath it and even a witnesses to the supposed crash said nothing hit the ground:

Terry Morin - "I then confirmed that the aircraft had been flown directly into the Pentagon without hitting the ground first or skipping into the building."

 

They then say more damage was done to the building than just the "outside" by showing this photo that shows the entire of three rings being renovated:

The official story does say the 757 penetrated all the way to the 3rd ring and photos do show a punch-out hole in the 3rd ring's wall. 

 

2) Can you explain how a Boeing 14.9 yards high, 51.7 yards long, with a wingspan of 41.6 yards and a cockpit 3.8 yards high, could crash into just the ground floor of this building?

Snopes says eyewitnesses describe and photos demonstrate that the 757 hit the ground first which dissipated much of it's energy and that's why it didn't cause more damage than it would have and say that too.  They also state a New York Times article stating hit between the 1st and 2nd floors, not just the ground floor.  Lastly they mention another account which says that the plane "banked sharply," clipped some light poles, and then hit the helipad that is right in front and to the left of the section hit.  The account then goes on to say that the roof of the section hit collapsed 30 minutes after the crash (which officially was at 9:37 am), but rescuers were able to pull out all the injured before the collapse.  The account finishes with saying that the fires in that section were so hot that the fire fighters weren't able to approach the impact point until about 1 pm.

First, as already mentioned above, close-up photos of the scene clearly show nothing struck the ground for and also confirmed by a witness.  Note that a big part of Snopes' debunking attempt falls on there claim that the 757 hit the ground first and that's why it didn't cause as much damage as it otherwise would.  Since it is clear nothing struck the ground first, this puts a big hole in Snopes' argument.

Second, the photo they link to shows the photos from the Pentagon's security camera that allegedly shows the crash.  However, it is impossible to tell in those photos that anything struck the ground in those photos.

Third, the account they mention says the 757 banked sharply, however there is no evidence of this that I'm aware of and it seems odd that they said the fires were so hot that the fire crews could only approach the area at about 1 pm, yet rescuers were able to approach this section to evacuate all the injured hours early and before the roof collapsed 30 minutes after the crash happened.

 

3) You'll remember that the aircraft only hit the ground floor of the Pentagon's first ring. Can you find debris of a Boeing 757-200 in this photograph?

Snopes says you can't see any plane debris because the 757 disappeared into the building and any large pieces of debris left inside burned up from in the intense fire that followed from the jet being "full of fuel."  Then they mention that some small debris was visible outside, but in another photo that they demonstrate.

First, Flight 77 must have traveled at least 800 miles from when it took off near D.C. until it reached the Pentagon, so it wasn't exactly full of fuel.

Second, the debris in the photo they show is interesting for a couple of reasons:

  1. Notice that it doesn't have any burn or scrape marks on it after it supposedly hit a reinforced wall at 530mph and exploded.

  2. This piece is near the front end of the plane which supposedly "disappeared" inside the building.  Why didn't it going into the building along with the rest of the plane when it was located closer to the front end of the plane? 

  3. How did it manage to land so far away from the impact epicenter with only one other small piece of debris scattered around it?

  4. The piece is small and light enough to be carried by hand which makes you wonder if it was planted and that's the reason it has no burn or scrape marks on it and why it's so far away from the epicenter with only one other piece beside it.

Third, they seem to claim that most of the 115 ton plane was destroyed from the impacting the reinforced wall, exploding, and anything left burned up inside from the "intense fire" from all the jet fuel.  I wonder how they would explain how all but one of the 64 passenger's bodies were able to be recovered inside the building as claimed?

 

4) Can you explain why the Defence Secretary deemed it necessary to sand over the lawn, which was otherwise undamaged after the attack?

Snopes says the order from the Defence Secretary to sand over the lawn is false and the reason it was sanded over was so trucks and other heavy equipment used there wouldn't slip and slide in the grass.

I have never been able to find who it was that ordered the lawn to be sanded.  Snopes' point about the heavy equipment there is a valid one, but it is still interesting that they covered up the lawn that would be seen afterwards by everyone that is was undamaged from the crash.

 

 

 

5) Can you explain what happened to the wings of the aircraft and why they caused no damage?

Snopes says that the outer portions of the wing "likely" broke off during the impact and then were "pushed inward" towards the fuselage and "carried into" the building.  The inner portions of the wings "probably" entered the building with the rest of the plane.  Any "sizable" portions of the wings remaining were destroyed by the explosion and subsequent fire.  Then they finish by saying that damage to the building from the plane's wings are "plainly visible" in photographs and present the following photo as evidence.

First, Snopes' explanation of what happened to the wingtips of the 757 is nothing short of hilarious!  I don't know what would cause the wingtips to be "pushed inward" towards the fuselage after breaking off from hitting the wall and then what would carry them into the building?  I would love to see a animated demonstration of that from them!  Maybe it would look something like the graphic below! 

They also never mention the trajectory of how the 757 supposedly crashed which officially was approximately 45 deg.

Second, if the wingtips did break off from impacting the way, they should have either crumpled up and bounced off and still be visible on the ground, or be obliterated in which it would have left a visible impression in the limestone masonry wall from where that happened.

Third, the photo they provide that shows damage to the building caused from the wings is hardly "plainly visible" from such a blurred photo taken far away.  There are photos that show damage seemingly caused from the wings, however there no evidence of any wings left afterward.

 

(Click for larger size.)

 

6) Can you explain why the County Fire Chief could not tell reporters where the aircraft was?

Snopes says the fire chief wasn't asked where the 757 was, but if there was anything left of the plane in which the chief said there were no large sections left by the time he was asked the next day because the plane had smashed into small pieces and then burned up and all that remained inside were smaller pieces.

Q: Is there anything left of the aircraft at all?

Plaugher: First all, the question about the aircraft, there are some small pieces of aircraft visible from the interior during this fire-fighting operation I'm talking about, but not large sections. In other words, there's no fuselage sections and that sort of thing.

Q: Chief, there are small pieces of the plane virtually all over, out over the highway, tiny pieces. Would you say the plane exploded, virtually exploded on impact due to the fuel or --

Plaugher: You know, I'd rather not comment on that.

We have a lot of eyewitnesses that can give you better information about what actually happened with the aircraft as it approached. So we don't know. I don't know.

- DoD (09/12/01)

 

Notice that the chief admits there were no large sections found, but only "some small pieces" visible inside which supports some conspiracy theorists claim that no 757 crash there, but a few "757" plane parts were planted inside the building just like Operation Northwoods mentions doing when talking about faking a plane crash:

c. At precisely the same time that the aircraft was presumably shot down a submarine or small surface craft would disburse F-101 parts...

 

 

7) Can you find the aircraft's point of impact?

Snopes says the impact site is obscured by water spray and smoke in the photos, but a two-story high hole does exist behind the fireman.  The say it wasn't possible for photographs to capture a view of the impact point from the brief time between the crash until the roof collapsed.

Actually, there are a few photos that clearly show the impact point. A couple of things are interesting to point out, it doesn’t look like the tail section did any damage to the 3rd story of the building.  What happened to the tail section of this 757?

 

Snopes finishes their debunk attempt with an update of the "Pentagon Strike" flash video released in August 2004 and lists a couple of websites were it can be found.

Why didn't they include the link to the official "Pentagon Strike" website?  http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/

 

In my opinion, Snopes' debunk attempt of Hunt the Boeing! is appalling.  It is riddled with factual errors according to the official story, bad photos that don't prove much of their case, and imaginative physics.  I'll I have to say about their debunking attempt is...


So much for Snopes!

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   6:08:55 ET  (9 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#697. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, abraxas (#696)

Snopes finishes their debunk attempt with an update of the "Pentagon Strike" flash video released in August 2004 and lists a couple of websites were it can be found.

Why didn't they include the link to the official "Pentagon Strike" website?  http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/

 

In my opinion, Snopes' debunk attempt of Hunt the Boeing! is appalling.  It is riddled with factual errors according to the official story, bad photos that don't prove much of their case, and imaginative physics.  I'll I have to say about their debunking attempt is...

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   6:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#698. To: AGAviator (#649)

And the fact some 30 passengers made cell phone calls between takeover and crashes, including Barbara Olson, describing the attacks, the injuries and deaths caused by the attackers

Cell phones didn't work at cruising altitudes back in 2001. Even the FBI says that Olson didn't receive any phone calls from his wife..

Ted Olson's Report of Phone Calls from Barbara Olson on 9/11: Three Official Denials


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   6:26:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#699. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#696) (Edited)

So much for Snopes!

So much for k00ks: 136 eyewitnesses saw an effing airplane heading towards the Pentagon, with 103 of them seeing it hit.

There was also DNA analysis done on the bodies and pieces of bodies returned to the family members of the people who died that morning.

The perpetuation of ghoulish lies alleging these passengers were killed elsewhere by some unknown methods is quite disgusting to any sane and reasonable person.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   10:17:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#700. To: AGAviator (#699)

136 eyewitnesses saw an effing airplane heading towards the Pentagon, with 103 of them seeing it hit.

People saw SOMETHING hit, but the reports conflict as to what path the plane took, and how many planes there were.

Two Pentagon police officers stated the plane passed OVER the Pentagon THEN something else hit the Pentagon wall.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   10:22:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#701. To: FormerLurker (#700) (Edited)

Two Pentagon police officers stated the plane passed OVER the Pentagon THEN something else hit the Pentagon wall

So what happened to the plane?

I find it likely that the police officers, if they made this statement at all, are being quoted out of context in typical CT fashion.

As I've said, the "supposed 270/330 degree precision turn" was actually an attempt by an inexperienced pilot to salvage a large plane getting too much lift to hit its original target on a power dive - the original target being the Potomac facing offices where the Pentagon's top executives and programs were.

The extra lift at high speed required the plane to come in after making a sweeping turn, and hit the back of the building, which was being renovated at the time and not even fully occupied, in order to hit the building at all.

If there is any truth at all to this police quote, they could be referring to the initial high speed pass which overshot the building, then be confused about the low flying aircraft which they were not in a favorable position to see.

I'll go with the 103 people, including one who says the plane came in so close he had to hit the ground.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   10:29:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#702. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#697)

In my opinion, Snopes' debunk attempt of Hunt the Boeing! is appalling. It is riddled with factual errors according to the official story, bad photos that don't prove much of their case, and imaginative physics

Here's some real physics from a company in the business of forensic analysis.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   10:33:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#703. To: buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#702) (Edited)

See above for excellent forensic analysis combining spot-on graphics with documented news photos.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   10:46:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#704. To: AGAviator (#702)

Hallucinatory fantasies about non-existent conspiracies are just so much more fun than boring truth.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-13   10:49:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#705. To: AGAviator (#701)

As I've said, the "supposed 270/330 degree precision turn" was actually an attempt by an inexperienced pilot to salvage a large plane getting too much lift to hit its original target on a power dive - the original target being the Potomac facing offices where the Pentagon's top executives and programs were.

Bullshit. It turned and descended like a military fighter, according to experienced air traffic controllers monitoring the approach.

THAT, and it flew just over treetops once it came out of its turn, travelling at over 500 mph, and in the last fractions of a second, descended down to where it was flying straight and level with its engines just 3 feet over the Pentagon lawn, before striking the Pentagon wall at ground level staight on.

Even highly experienced pilots would have trouble with that, since the plane was NOT slowing down, was NOT using flaps, and would have experienced tremendous GROUND EFFECT by flying so close to the ground at high speed. Ground effect causes the plane to climb due to much higher lift than usual, where a pilot would need to force the plane's nose down to keep it from climbing.

Thing is, the nose was NOT down otherwise it would have hit into the ground leaving a crater rather than hitting the Pentagon wall as it did.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   11:32:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#706. To: Turtle (#704)

Hallucinatory fantasies about non-existent conspiracies are just so much more fun than boring truth.

Yeah, you seem to have quite a few delusions of angry arabs who hated us for "our freedoms" pulling off a James Bond attack against the United States, defeating the world's largest military, and wreaking havoc on its citizens.

If your fantasy didn't cause any harm, well so be it, but it has caused UNTOLD suffering and loss of human life, due to people such as yourself who cheer for bloodshed against people who have done us no wrong and caused us no harm.

People such as you are dangerous.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   11:37:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#707. To: AGAviator (#701)

The extra lift at high speed required the plane to come in after making a sweeping turn, and hit the back of the building, which was being renovated at the time and not even fully occupied, in order to hit the building at all.

The part of the building which was hit happened to have computers and personnel involved with naval operations, and civilian accounting staff.

Odd that the accounting office was hit, since just the day before Rumsfeld announced the Pentagon couldn't account for 2.3 TRILLION dollars.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   11:44:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#708. To: FormerLurker (#706)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   11:50:24 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#709. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#698)

Even the FBI says that Olson didn't receive any phone calls from his wife..

That's calling Ted Olson a liar, when it's clear that theologian-masquerading- as-a-scientist David Ray Griffin who consistently uses half-truths buttressed by out of context quotes is the biggest liar around.

First of all the cell phones did work in 2001 although their coverage and call duration were spotty. They worked better above country sites than over cities. Also some passengers used seat phones installed on the aircraft which people generally lump into "mobile" or "cell" phones when classifying the type of calls they get.

911 Conspiracy Theories

Phone calls After 9/11, cellular experts said that calls were able to be placed from the hijacked planes, and that they were surprised that they lasted as long as they did. They said that the only reason that the calls went through in the first place is that the aircraft were flying so close to the ground.[116] Alexa Graf, an AT&T spokesperson said it was almost a fluke that the calls reached their destinations.[117] Other industry experts said that it is possible to use cell phones with varying degrees of success during the ascent and descent of commercial airline flights.[118] Marvin Sirbu, professor of engineering and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University said on September 14, 2001, that "The fact of the matter is that cell phones can work in almost all phases of a commercial flight."[118]

According to the 9/11 Commission Report, 13 passengers from Flight 93 made a total of over 30 calls to both family and emergency personnel (twenty-two confirmed air phone calls, two confirmed cell phone and eight not specified in the report). According to Debunk911myths.org, all but two calls from Flight 93 were made on air phones, not cell phones, and both calls lasted about a minute before being dropped.[119] Brenda Raney, Verizon Wireless spokesperson, said that Flight 93 was supported by several cell sites.[117] There were reportedly three phone calls from Flight 11, five from Flight 175, and three calls from Flight 77. Two calls from these flights were recorded, placed by flight attendants Madeleine Sweeney and Betty Ong on Flight 11.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   11:51:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#710. To: AGAviator (#701)

I find it likely that the police officers, if they made this statement at all, are being quoted out of context in typical CT fashion.

Ok, they didn't say they saw a plane pass over the Pentagon, I may have gotten that part confused with some other report. They DID however say that the plane they both saw did NOT fly from the same direction as told by the "official story", which they were not even aware of.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   11:56:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#711. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critteer (#707)

Odd that the accounting office was hit, since just the day before Rumsfeld announced the Pentagon couldn't account for 2.3 TRILLION dollars.

More important than hitting Rumsfeld's office?

Could they at least have cleared the construction material - that was hit, care to explain how it was damaged and knocked sideways if no wing clipped it - directly in front of the entry hole?

And had their thingmabob hit the wall at 90 degrees straight on instead of an oblique 60-something degrees angle? Would have made a better collision.

Was the oblique entry hole angle part of the preprogrammed attack too?

And who scattered the aircraft parts both inside the building where they got scorched, and across the lawn?

And the DNA evidence, which identified everybody listed who died except a baby, that's all faked and none of the relatives has ever found out?

Beyond pathetic.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   11:58:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#712. To: AGAviator (#709)

Marvin Sirbu, professor of engineering and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University said on September 14, 2001, that "The fact of the matter is that cell phones can work in almost all phases of a commercial flight."[118]

Seems like your friend Marvin Sirbu, has a few problems in the way of ethics...

Marvin Sirbu's Moral Mazes


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:01:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#713. To: AGAviator (#711)

And the DNA evidence, which identified everybody listed who died except a baby, that's all faked and none of the relatives has ever found out?

So how come those "hijackers" are still alive? Did they have super duper space suits on and ejected themselves up to a super secret AL-CIADA space ship waiting for them in orbit?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:02:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#714. To: FormerLurker (#710)

They DID however say that the plane they both saw did NOT fly from the same direction

They both draw a flight path showing the plane taking the same path as depicted in the above videos I posted, hitting at an oblique angle.

Do they say it was a cruise missile?

That's all the CT's have?

Where's the beef?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   12:04:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#715. To: AGAviator (#711)

As far as the odd coincidence that the plane just happened to hit a recently REINFORCED section of the Pentagon, I guess that just passes right through the air in your head, doesn't it...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:05:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#716. To: AGAviator (#711)

And had their thingmabob hit the wall at 90 degrees straight on instead of an oblique 60-something degrees angle? Would have made a better collision.

Was the oblique entry hole angle part of the preprogrammed attack too?

If it were 90 degrees straight on, it might have raised even further questions as to how an inept pilot could pull that off. It's pretty much impossible for an inept pilot to have done what occured that day as it is, but many people are too stupid to understand that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:06:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#717. To: FormerLurker (#713)

So how come those "hijackers" are still alive?

19 out of 19 hijackers are dead, with Saudi acknowledging 15 of them and telling their families.

Depends on who you say were the hijackers. False documents, common names with other people, different phonetic spellings, stolen ID's, etc. can explain any other discrepancies that aren't products of cut and picking half truths out of a complete body of evidence.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   12:08:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#718. To: AGAviator (#714)

They both draw a flight path showing the plane taking the same path as depicted in the above videos I posted, hitting at an oblique angle.

WRONG!

YOU and the government CT followers claim the aircraft approached from south of the Citgo station, whereas the two officers drew a line showing a flight path NORTH of the Citgo station.

Lightpoles which you and your pals claim were knocked down, were NOT knocked down when the two officers investigated.

The blue line in the image below depicts the two officer's testimony, the red line is the path YOU and your pals claim the plane took.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:13:36 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#719. To: AGAviator (#717)

19 out of 19 hijackers are dead, with Saudi acknowledging 15 of them and telling their families.

I guess the fact that they're alive and well, going on TV, and explaining that they had nothing to do with 9/11, doesn't change your view on that, eh?

Do you believe in the tooth faery too?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:14:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#720. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, (#716) (Edited)

If it were 90 degrees straight on, it might have raised even further questions as to how an inept pilot could pull that off

In the post above, you say "recently REINFORCED section"

Now you're saying how "they" also didn't want to make too obvious of a straight on hole so their cover story could be more credible.

So now your story is "they" sent a missile directly into a stronger than normal section, at a less than normal collision direction, making two factors reduce the impact force of "their" attack of whatever "they" wanted to hit.

Do you understand how stupid this sounds, to work with your right hand against your left, so to speak?

I'm starting to feel sorry for you needing to make all this stuff up to des·per·ate·ly make your CT hold up. I'm gonna not post for the rest of the day.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   12:15:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#721. To: AGAviator (#717)

BTW AGAv, where are all those video tapes showing the aircraft approach and impact? Oh that's right, the FBI confiscated them and never released them, except for one from inside the Citgo station that doesn't show anything.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:17:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#722. To: AGAviator (#720)

Now you're saying how "they" also didn't want to make too obvious of a straight on hole so their cover story could be more credible.

So now your story is "they" sent a missile directly into a stronger than normal section, at a less than normal collision direction, making two factors reduce the impact force of "their" attack of whatever "they" wanted to hit.

Do you understand how stupid this sounds, to work with your right hand against your left, so to speak?

Let me explain it to you in simple terms, since you appear to have some serious issues with comprehension.

Those behind the attacks didn't want to destroy the Pentagon, they wanted to do something spectacular for the TV cameras. By hitting the strongest section, they caused minimal damage yet had some spectacular footage.

THAT and they ALSO eliminated any pesky evidence on those computers that were destroyed in that section of the building.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:20:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#723. To: AGAviator (#720)

BTW, where is the tail section of the aircraft? Where are the wings?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:21:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#724. To: FormerLurker (#722)

Those behind the attacks didn't want to destroy the Pentagon, they wanted to do something spectacular for the TV cameras. By hitting the strongest section, they caused minimal damage yet had some spectacular footage.

Just as luck would have it, the impact was centered amongst the bean counters who, as luck would have it, lost all the data that could determine where that $2.3 trillion missing per news accounts on 9-10 went.

But, it's all just coincidence. I bet those hijackers had a fatwa out on the heads of bean counters in the Pentegaon.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   12:26:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#725. To: AGAviator (#711)

And who scattered the aircraft parts both inside the building where they got scorched, and across the lawn?

Where's all the "wreakage"?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:27:19 ET  (4 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#726. To: abraxas (#724)

I bet those hijackers had a fatwa out on the heads of bean counters in the Pentegaon.

Yeah, bin Laden felt bad for Rumsfeld, so he thought he'd help him out a bit...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:28:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#727. To: FormerLurker (#723)

The tail section is hiding, along with the indestructible black boxes from all air craft involved in 911 events. The evil doers are very good at hiding little things like tail sections and black boxes. Yet, indestructible passports belonging to the hijackers could easily slip from the jet fuel explosion and land on the sidewalk for easy finding.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   12:29:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#728. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#718)


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   12:30:37 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#729. To: Original_Intent (#656)

Of course to sell the suckers Osama, Tim Osman, Bin Laden has to be built up as this mythical figure on par with Sax Rohmer's "Villainous Dr. Fu Manchu".

Of course to sell the suckers Osama, Tim Osman/Emmanuel Goldstein/Farmer Jones, Bin Laden

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   12:33:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#730. To: wudidiz (#728)

The fact is, there were apparently TWO aircraft, one seen by some coming from south of the Citgo station, and one coming from north of the Citgo station. One would have had to pull up and fly away, with the smoke caused by the other aircraft impacting the building obscuring the 1st plane's departure.

One was possibly the real Flight 93, the other was something else.

The timing was impeccible if that is actually what happened.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:38:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#731. To: Critter (#88)

Lies get kids blown up by the thousand. People who support lies are responsible for this shit. That means you.

I had nothing to do with the scum bags that messed up some innocent girl's face. If I had witness it, they'd be dead. You useful idiots have everything to do with thousands of blown up kids. Go fuck yourself. I have no use for you or your kind.

that


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   12:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#732. To: HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend (#694)

that make their little peckers "sad".

If a woman says no to me, from now on I'm going to look down and say, "My pecker is sad."

Usually if they laugh they change their minds!

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-13   12:40:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#733. To: James Deffenbach, Original_Intent, wudidiz, All (#729)

Maybe turdle listens to michael reagan ???

Reagan simply called for and wants '911 truthers' to be murdered. Is reagan still on the airwaves ?

Anyone covering for the 911 official false flag (and thereby the subsequent rapidly advancing new world we live in) imo should not be taken as a prisoner when escalation truly DOES begin inside Occupied America / ameriKa...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   12:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#734. To: abraxas (#727)

The tail section is hiding, along with the indestructible black boxes from all air craft involved in 911 events. The evil doers are very good at hiding little things like tail sections and black boxes. Yet, indestructible passports belonging to the hijackers could easily slip from the jet fuel explosion and land on the sidewalk for easy finding.

Without even a scratch or singed page.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:42:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#735. To: Turtle (#732)

You strike me as the repubican type...but you probably like REALLY young boys, yeah ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   12:43:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#736. To: AGAviator (#720)

I'm gonna not post for the rest of the day.

I guess you're in trouble with your bosses, eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:44:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#737. To: FormerLurker (#736)

AGitprop


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   12:48:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#738. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#712)

Marvin Sirbu, professor of engineering and public policy at Carnegie Mellon University said on September 14, 2001, that "The fact of the matter is that cell phones can work in almost all phases of a commercial flight."[118]

Seems like your friend Marvin Sirbu, has a few problems in the way of ethics...

Marvin Sirbu's Moral Mazes

As I suggested earlier, but didn't follow up the "worthy" Professor is a "Rent-a-Prof" looking for more of dems nice gubbermint grants n shit.

The Professors statements are impeached.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   12:49:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#739. To: IRTorqued (#680)

the members of the liar movement will believe anything the government tells them and for a small fee shout those lies from the roof tops if they also supply the talking points.

shhhhh...you don't want Farmer Jones to come back, do you?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   12:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#740. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#725)

But Look at that Pentalawn 2000! It took an impact from a screaming 757 and is still intact. That's some tough grass.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   12:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#741. To: Original_Intent (#738)

As I suggested earlier, but didn't follow up the "worthy" Professor is a "Rent-a-Prof" looking for more of dems nice gubbermint grants n shit.

That's almost ALWAYS the case with these "experts" who back the government story.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   12:56:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#742. To: FormerLurker (#730)

The need for prescise timing may be why the one jet had to pull off that tight spiral in a turn that was at, or possibly just beyond, the theoretical limits of the airframe to withstand the G forces involved in the spiral descent. Certainly that was not a maneuver pulled off by an incompetent pilot who had never flown anything larger than a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 (with a top speed of 220 knots in a dive).

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   12:59:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#743. To: FormerLurker (#730)

The fact is, there were apparently TWO aircraft, one seen by some coming from south of the Citgo station, and one coming from north of the Citgo station. One would have had to pull up and fly away, with the smoke caused by the other aircraft impacting the building obscuring the 1st plane's departure.

One was possibly the real Flight 93, the other was something else.

The timing was impeccible if that is actually what happened.

Are there witnesses who saw both?

My reason for posting the two pictures in post 728 is that the second picture seems to show that the missile or whatever it was traveled along the blue line in the first picture.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   13:01:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#744. To: Original_Intent (#740)

But Look at that Pentalawn 2000! It took an impact from a screaming 757 and is still intact. That's some tough grass.

That and every little piece of the plane just vaporized, except for a tiny clean yet twisted piece of scrap that the government CT'ers hold up as "proof" that Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon. Strange how that piece of scrap isn't there in the original images though...

Oh yeah, there's some aircraft parts in pictures from inside the buiding, but where is the tail, and where are the wings? With an angled impact such as the trajectory of the aircraft, a least the left wing should have torn off and slid across the front of the building. AND, the tail section should have broken off upon entry to the building.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   13:02:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#745. To: Original_Intent (#742)

Certainly that was not a maneuver pulled off by an incompetent pilot who had never flown anything larger than a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 (with a top speed of 220 knots in a dive).

Especially not one who couldn't center a Cessna onto a runway in order to land it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   13:03:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#746. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, buckeroo, Turtle, all (#736)

I'm gonna not post for the rest of the day.

Who are we gonna argue with then? Buck and Turtle?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   13:04:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#747. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#696) (Edited)

Snopes says eyewitnesses describe and photos demonstrate that the 757 hit the ground first

The Amazing Pentalawn

Snopes=full of $#it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   13:04:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#748. To: wudidiz (#743)

Are there witnesses who saw both?

I don't know of any who saw both, but from the witness reports, there were two different flight paths.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   13:04:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#749. To: FormerLurker (#741)

As I suggested earlier, but didn't follow up the "worthy" Professor is a "Rent-a-Prof" looking for more of dems nice gubbermint grants n shit.

That's almost ALWAYS the case with these "experts" who back the government story.

There does seem to be a pattern. And reputable Professors who know their stuff and disagree with the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" are bought off, as the Professor at U. of NM who looked at the film early on and said it was clearly a controlled demolition, but then he went to D.C. the next week, got a big fat grant, and changed his tune. Those who maintain their integrity are attacked such as Professor Jones of BYU (who I think, financially, had the last laugh as they had to give him a golden handshake when BYU forced him out to protect all that good gubbermint grant money they get). Thomas, living on government grants, Eggar of M.I.T. (the father of the laughable sagging truss theory that has been so thoroughly discredited) will no longer even talk to reporters or independent investigators. He's holed up in his office and playing clam. Not a normal behavior for an attention seeking professor who wants to maintain his "reputation". I am rather fond of Professor Jones because despite the attempts to shut him up he's still standing, and none of the attempts to discredit him or his work have stuck because he is very careful with the facts and they are all on his side.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   13:10:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#750. To: wudidiz (#708)

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   13:11:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#751. To: abraxas (#727)

The evil doers are very good at hiding little things like tail sections and black boxes. Yet, indestructible passports belonging to the hijackers could easily slip from the jet fuel explosion and land on the sidewalk for easy finding.

Yes, I wonder how they were able to work out all those modalities.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   13:15:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#752. To: James Deffenbach (#747)

Snopes=full of $#it.

world neo kommunists all the way...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   13:23:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#753. To: FormerLurker (#744)

But Look at that Pentalawn 2000! It took an impact from a screaming 757 and is still intact. That's some tough grass.

That and every little piece of the plane just vaporized, except for a tiny clean yet twisted piece of scrap that the government CT'ers hold up as "proof" that Flight 77 impacted the Pentagon. Strange how that piece of scrap isn't there in the original images though...

Oh yeah, there's some aircraft parts in pictures from inside the buiding, but where is the tail, and where are the wings? With an angled impact such as the trajectory of the aircraft, a least the left wing should have torn off and slid across the front of the building. AND, the tail section should have broken off upon entry to the building.

I wish I could recall where I saw it but there was a photograph of an auxilliary turbine compressor that someone spotted in one of the photos, I believe it was the Pentagon, that was not normal for 757 but would have been consistent with an S-3. I think that an S-3 painted to look like an AA jet seems to fit the evidence better than anything else I've seen floated. It is small enough and fast enough (and as a military jet has a strong enough airframe) to have pulled off the maneuvers attributed to the airliner and yet big enough and a similar, but smaller, profile to keep the illusion alive for the few needed seconds. Also as a smaller jet it would not have been as heavily influenced by wing tip vortices and ground effect. Load one up with explosives and it is going to create quite a bang - sufficient to pull off the illusion.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   13:26:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#754. To: James Deffenbach (#747)

Snopes says eyewitnesses describe and photos demonstrate that the 757 hit the ground first

The Amazing Pentalawn

Snopes=full of $#it.

If the aircraft had hit the lawn first,

A) It would have left a crater. It did not leave a crater, in fact, it didn't even scratch the lawn.
B) It would not have penetrated the Pentagon as it did. It more than likely would have tumbled and broken into pieces before hitting the Pentagon, which it didn't.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   13:32:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#755. To: Rotara (#737)

AGitprop

Yep, that should be his new nickname...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   13:33:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#756. To: FormerLurker (#755)

an attack on Iran must be somewhat imminent imo...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   13:35:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#757. To: Rotara, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, FormerLurker, all (#752)

Snopes=full of $#it.

world neo kommunists all the way...

Debunking snopes.com
steele here's picture November 11, 2008 - 7:40am — steele here

This may come as a surprise to many of you that use snopes.com to seek the truth.

For the past few years www.snopes.com has positioned itself, or others have labeled it, as the 'tell all final word' on any comment, claim, email or "urban legend".

But for several years people tried to find out who exactly was behind snopes.com. Only recently did Wikipedia get to the bottom of it - kinda makes you wonder what they were hiding.

Well, finally we know. It is run by a husband and wife team - that's right, no big office of investigators or researchers, no team of lawyers. It's just a mom-and-pop operation that began as a hobby.

David and Barbara Mikkelson in the San Fernando Valley of California started the website about 13 years ago. They have no formal background or experience in investigative research. After a few years their website gained popularity, many people believing it to be unbiased and neutral. Over the past couple of years people started asking questions who was behind it, and did they have a selfish motivation?

The reason for the questions - or skepticism - is a result of snopes.com claiming to have the bottom line facts to certain questions or issues when in fact they have been proven wrong. Also, there were criticisms the Mikkelsons were not really investigating and getting to the 'true' bottom of various issues. I can personally vouch for that complaint.

A few months ago, when my State Farm agent Bud Gregg in Mandeville hoisted a political sign referencing Barack Obama and made a big splash across the Internet, 'supposedly' the Mikkelson's claimed to have researched this issue before posting their findings on snopes.com. In their statement the Mikkelsons claimed the corporate office of State Farm pressured Gregg into taking down the sign, when in fact nothing of the sort 'ever' took place.

I personally contacted David Mikkelson (and he replied back to me) thinking he would want to get to the bottom of this, and I gave him Bud Gregg's contact phone numbers - and Bud was going to give him phone numbers to the big exec's at State Farm in Illinois, who would have been willing to speak with him about it. David Mikkelson never called Bud. In fact, I learned from Bud Gregg that no one from snopes.com ever contacted anyone at State Farm. Yet, snopes.com issued a statement as the 'final factual word' on the issue as if they did all their homework and got to the bottom of things - not!

We now know that the Mikkelson's are very pro-Democratic Party and extremely liberal. As we all now know from this presidential election, liberals have a purposeful agenda to discredit anything that appears to be Conservative. There has been much criticism lately over the Internet, with people pointing out the Mikkelson's liberalism revealing itself in their website findings. Now, that should come as no shock.

So, I say this to everyone who goes to www.snopes.com to get what they think to be the bottom line facts: "Proceed with Caution."

Take what snopes says at face value and nothing more. Use it only to lead you to their references where you can link to and read the sources for yourself. Plus, you can always Google a subject and do the research yourself. It is apparent that's all the Mikkelson's do. After all, I can personally vouch from my own experience for their 'not' fully looking into things

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   13:35:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#758. To: Original_Intent (#753)

I think that an S-3 painted to look like an AA jet seems to fit the evidence better than anything else I've seen floated. It is small enough and fast enough (and as a military jet has a strong enough airframe) to have pulled off the maneuvers attributed to the airliner and yet big enough and a similar, but smaller, profile to keep the illusion alive for the few needed seconds. Also as a smaller jet it would not have been as heavily influenced by wing tip vortices and ground effect. Load one up with explosives and it is going to create quite a bang - sufficient to pull off the illusion.

I wonder if they did that to ensure there would be sufficient penetration into the Pentagon, or that it would have just been TOO impossible to actually manuever a real 757 into the flight path that it ended up taking on its terminal approach.

Apparently, a normal crash of an airliner hitting the ROOF of the building would have caused too much damage perhaps?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   13:36:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#759. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM, abraxas (#757)

Should have included you in the ping list for #757.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   13:39:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#760. To: Original_Intent (#757)

We now know that the Mikkelson's are very pro-Democratic Party and extremely liberal.

The North American Union made it patently obvious to me, but before then I hadn't ever bothered with taking them seriously as a source for anything...these people are clearly deconstructionist Big Government World Communists, doing the work of fellow travelers on the Internets to bring a new world consciousness through lies and omissions. To put it mildly.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   13:49:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#761. To: FormerLurker (#758)

I think that an S-3 painted to look like an AA jet seems to fit the evidence better than anything else I've seen floated. It is small enough and fast enough (and as a military jet has a strong enough airframe) to have pulled off the maneuvers attributed to the airliner and yet big enough and a similar, but smaller, profile to keep the illusion alive for the few needed seconds. Also as a smaller jet it would not have been as heavily influenced by wing tip vortices and ground effect. Load one up with explosives and it is going to create quite a bang - sufficient to pull off the illusion.

I wonder if they did that to ensure there would be sufficient penetration into the Pentagon, or that it would have just been TOO impossible to actually manuever a real 757 into the flight path that it ended up taking on its terminal approach.

Apparently, a normal crash of an airliner hitting the ROOF of the building would have caused too much damage perhaps?

Well, with the smaller, but sturdier, airframe of an S-3 (and without divulging anything I shouldn't the S-3 was originally designed as an ASW Jet, my field in the service, and is quite maneuverable - it can take off and land on a carrier) it would have created about the right size hole, had better penetration than just about any other medium sized jet because of the beefier structure, but still small enough and maneuverable enough to make the right approach. I think that also helps clear up the confusion on the approach path and the reports that the 757 flew over the Pentagram. It was basically a "David Copperfield" type trick of the eye. Line up the larger plane so it just clears the Pentagram and then at the same time bring in the S-3 to make the actual impact. The other plane continues out over the ocean where it is ditched OR brought back in, landed, the passengers whacked and disposed of, and then the plane gets a new set of numbers.

Given the amount of mass and kinetic energy a real 757 would have had I think the actual damage would have been much greater. And then there is the problem of the wings. The apparent wing damage to the structure better fits an S-3 than a 757 with a much greater wingspan.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   13:51:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#762. To: Original_Intent (#761)

Ted Olson's behavior in all of this (remember the cell phone calls to Barbara ?) has always bothered me...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   13:55:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#763. To: Rotara (#762)

Ted Olson's behavior in all of this (remember the cell phone calls to Barbara ?) has always bothered me...

Yes, he has contradicted himself multiple times. As an aside, but possibly related, is the rumor that he and Barbara were close to a break-up. So, it might not have bothered him all that much to have her play a "final" part in the charade. If you are on the inside it would be an easy enough method to dispose of an inconvenient wife, with no suspicion, by getting her a ticket for the "right" plane.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   14:05:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#764. To: Critter (#88)

I will give you and every other Truther on the planet 10,000 years to prove your case. You will never do it, because 9-11 was not an inside job.

You've had nine years -- no proof, no confessions, no convictions -- nothing.

Might as will waste your life proving the moon landing was shot on a stage, or there were three shooters on Kennedy, or that all politicians are really shape- shifting blood-drinking space reptiles.

Almost 50 years after Kennedy was killed...and the nuts won't give it up. Forty years from now, and the Truther nuts still won't have an atom of proof...and still won't give it up.

Conspiracism is a mental illness.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-13   14:20:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#765. To: Rotara (#735)

You strike me as the repubican type...but you probably like REALLY young boys, yeah ?

Classical liberal/conservative libertarian, free market with Austrian leanings...but you don't know what any of that means.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-13   14:22:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#766. To: Original_Intent (#763)

Yes, he has contradicted himself multiple times.

You'd think a man of his 'caliber' brain power and organizational skills could get something as searing in one's mind as this is...straight.

Baffling to anyone I would hope...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:22:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#767. To: Turtle (#765)

Classical liberal/conservative libertarian, free market with Austrian leanings...but you don't know what any of that means.

Right, LOL ! You also don't pay much attention around here you arrogant, pompous, self-righteous asshole.

You're an Imperialist. Punto


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:23:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#768. To: Turtle (#764)

Who is Barry Jennings, asshole turdler...?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:24:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#769. To: turtle, Asshole Turdler (#768)

Who is Barry Jennings, asshole turdler...?

I'll even use google to help you out...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:27:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#770. To: All (#769)

Search ResultsBarry Jennings, Key 9/11 Witness Dies | GroundReport 17 Sep 2008 ... Barry Jennings, a former New York Housing Authority Emergency Coordinator and key 9/11 witness, has died of undisclosed causes at the age of ... www.groundreport.com/US/Barry-Jennings...9-11.../2869565 - Cached - SimilarKey Witness to WTC 7 Explosions Dead at 53 16 Sep 2008 ... Emergency coordinator and 9/11 witness Barry Jennings has passed away with controversy about WTC7 still hot– as the BBC hit piece and NIST ... www.infowars.com › Featured Stories - Cached - SimilarBarry Jennings Mystery: Barry Jennings - 9/11 Early Afternoon ABC7 ... 17 Mar 2009 ... 19, 2009 is the first anniversary of the mysterious death of key 9/11 eyewitness Barry Jennings. To make a commitment to banner outside your ... barryjenningsmystery.blogspot.com/.../barry-jennings-911-early-afternoon-abc7.html - Cached - SimilarVideos for barry jennings 911 World Exclusive: WTC7 Survivor Barry Jennings ... 7 min - 23 Jun 2008 Uploaded by UnsettledDust www.youtube.com

9/11 Key Witness Murdered? (Barry Jennings RIP) 11 min - 5 Oct 2008 Uploaded by NufffRespect www.youtube.com

VERY Key 9/11 Witness Barry Jennings Reported DEAD!!! 30 posts - 20 authors - Last post: 23 May Barry Jennings, a key 9/11 eyewitness who was an emergency coordinator for the ... On the morning of 911 Barry Jennings with Michael Hess, ... forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=59063.0 - Cached - SimilarGet more discussion results Barry Jennings Barry Jennings was a participant or observer in the following events: ... [UPN 9, 9/11/2001] Jennings will also recall hearing explosions. ... www.historycommons.org › Entities - Cached - SimilarNew Information on the Death of 911 Eyewitness Barry Jennings ... 17 Apr 2009 ... Barry Jennings, a key 9/11 eyewitness who was an emergency coordinator for the New York Housing Authority, passed away last August 2008 at ... edwardrynearson.wordpress.com/.../new-information-on-the-death-of-911-eyewitness-barry-jennings/ - Cached - Similarno one has to die tomorroW.: Barry Jennings: World Trade Center 7 21 Jun 2007 ... On 911 he was on the news covered with debris, like many survivors seen on television that day. Barry Jennings has put his full story on the ... noonehastodie.blogspot.com/.../barry-jennings-world-trade-center-7.html - Cached - SimilarPatriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 ... 5, FDNY, Barry Zelman – Brother of Kenneth Zelman, Oracle Corp., ..... ABC 9/12/01: Peter Jennings interviewed Marlene Cruz the day after 9/11. ... www.patriotsquestion911.com/survivors.html - Cached - SimilarHumint Events Online: Another Key 9/11 Witness Dead: Barry Jennings 17 Sep 2008 ... Another Key 9/11 Witness Dead: Barry Jennings. Barry Jennings, a whistle-blower and critical witness to nasty business at WTC7 is dead at 53 ... covertoperations.blogspot.com/.../another-key-911-witness-dead-barry.html - Cached - SimilarSearches related to barry jennings 911 barry jennings 9 11 wtc7

jennings 11 wtc7 full uncut interview

berry jennings 911

that's page one of google search 'Barry Jennings 911'. right now anyway.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:33:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#771. To: turtle, Asshole Turdler, All (#770)

April 16, 2009

By Jack Blood

www.wFUradio.com

www.deadlinelive.info

Barry Jennings, a key 9/11 eyewitness who was an emergency coordinator for the New York Housing Authority, passed away last August 2008 at age 53 from undisclosed circumstances. Mr. Jennings was an eyewitness to the devastation of the World Trade center towers on September 11th 2001.

On the morning of 911 Barry Jennings with Michael Hess, (one of Rudy Giuliani’s highest ranking appointed officials, New York city’s corporation counsel), entered the famed Building 7.

It was just after the first attack on the North tower, but before the second plane hit the South Tower, when Barry Jennings escorted Michael Hess to the World Trade Center Tower 7. Mr. Jennings recalls a large number of police officers in the lobby of WTC 7 when they arrived. The two men went up to the 23rd floor, but could not get in, so they went back to the lobby and the police took them up in the freight elevator for a second try. When they arrived on level 23, at the Office of Emergency Management (FEMA),) they found it had been recently deserted, “coffee that was on the desk, smoke was still coming off the coffee, I saw half eaten sandwiches”.

At that point he made some phone calls, and an un-named individual told them to “leave, and leave right away”. Jennings and Hess then proceeded to the stairs, and made it to level 6, when there was an explosion, and the stairwell collapsed from under their feet, Mr. Jennings was actually hanging, and had to climb back up. They made it back up to level 8, where Barry Jennings had a view of the twin towers, both buildings were still standing. This is an important detail, as many debunkers have used Mr. Jennings statements out of context to claim the damage came to WTC 7 from the towers collapsing, not the case according, to Mr. Jennings.

When they made it to the lobby, Mr. Jennings found it destroyed and littered with dead bodies. He said it looked like, “King Kong had came through it and stepped on it, (it was) so destroyed, I didn’t know where I was. So destroyed that they had to take me out through a hole in the wall, that I believe the fire department made to get me out.” Shortly after he made it out, he was seen on several news channels telling his story.

Mr. Jennings was admittedly confused as to why Building 7 had to come down at all, and does not accept the official reason that the noises he heard were from a fuel oil tank, “I know what I heard, I heard explosions”.

Jennings testimony was recorded by Loose Change for the Final Cut version of the extremely popular documentary, but was edited out at the final stage due to Jennings misgivings about losing his job, and endangering his family.

The BBC later interviewed Jennings for a “911 debunking special” and Jennings seemed to retract the testimony given to Loose Change. Subsequently the creators of the film released the original interview to protect their own credibility.

Barry Jennings passed away shortly thereafter and coincidentally just a few days before the long awaited NIST report on Building 7 was released to the public. It is quite possible that Jennings would have exposed the cover story of NIST, and their overall excuse that the 47 story building was the first and only skyscraper felled by fire. He never got that chance.

New Information

Yesterday, April 15th 2009 I was contacted by “Loose Change” director, and narrator Dylan Avery who said that he had recently begun investigating the death of Barry Jennings, and had found some new information relating to his death.

It seems that there is a very good possibility that Jennings’ death could have been due to foul play. Though the investigations are on going, initial findings are somewhat alarming. The conclusion is still forthcoming, but I was shocked by what I heard.

It seems that Dylan had hired a private investigator to look into Jennings death which remains shrouded in mystery. His motive was simply to bring some closure to the life of Barry Jennings, and in doing so to honor the memory of this brave American. The Investigator ended up referring the case to Law enforcement before refunding his pay, and told Dylan never to contact him again. Very unusual to say the least. Dylan also paid a visit to the Jennings home. He found it vacant and for sale.

Personally, something is really beginning to stink here. Why would a highly paid PI refuse to continue his investigation? Why did he refer the matter to police? He is not talking. What is he afraid of. Was he warned to cease and desist? If so by whom? These are some of the new questions revolving around the Jennings case.

In every major cover up from the JFK assassination to Iran Contra, we can see one common thread. The untimely death of eyewitnesses. Barry Jennings was not only an important and most credible eyewitness, but he openly refuted much of the government, and media version of events. He was a liability.

I found this at one of the google links on that page.

Maybe Asshole Turdler will dismiss all of this out of hand because Barry Jennings was a nigger.

Maybe ? OR what then ? Will the Asshole Turdler come back chat about 'Who is Barry Jennings ?' ??


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:38:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#772. To: 4 (#771)

i guess the entire 4um went out to lunch at the same time.

i took my lunch here so that i could have a chat with the Asshole Turdler...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:42:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#773. To: Turdle, Turtle, Critter, FormerLurker, wudidiz, abraxas, James Deffenbach, all (#764)

Oh, Turdle you are such a hoot. Of course 911 was an INSIDE JOB.

One can look at the actions of the government alone and know that there is a cover-up in place, and it started very early on.

The debris from all of the sites was put under armed guard, never given an Engineering Forensics examination to actually determine the cause of the collapse, and then the steel was quickly shipped to a holding site, still under armed guard, and then out of the country, still under armed guard, to China despite higher domestic bids for the steel having been made.

NORAD, the most sophisticated air tracking system on the planet, was struck by a massive dose of stupid pills and allowed the allegedly hijacked aircraft fly around unimpeded for about 2 hours, while directing potetial intercept aircraft out of the way, so that they could plot a leisurely course for a couple of obsolete buildings that otherwise would have cost a couple hundred million to take down. NO ONE AT NORAD WAS EVER COURT MARTIALED, SANCTIONED, DENIED PROMOTION, OR IN ANY WAY HELD TO ACCOUNT FOR WHAT CAN ONLY BE DESCRIBED AS EITHER MASSIVE INCOMPETENCE ALL THE WAY UP THE CHAIN OF COMMAND OR BY INTENT.

Bush fought the creation of an investigatory panel for over a year, and then tried to stack it by putting Henry, the war criminal insider, Kissinger in charge. That of course stunk so bad Kissinger had to withdraw.

The Chairman of the eventually formed committee, which had its scope, budget, and powers severely limited, has repudiated the committee's own final report, which one committee member resigned from rather than sign the report.

The FEMA Report has now been so thoroughly discredited that much of it is used only by people such as myself as a negative example.

The NIST Report has been through multiple revisions to try and patch the holes and misrepresentations, mainly by omitting critical data, discovered in each in every version. The original version gave less than a page to the collapse of WTC 7 and then just waved the magic authoritarian wand to make it disappear.

I could go on to cite more evidence of cover-up, such as the gag order on Air Traffic Controllers which remains in place now some NINE YEARS LATER, but that should be sufficient to make the point.

Where there is a cover-up there is smoke and where there is smoke there is fire.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   14:45:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#774. To: Original_Intent (#773)

Barry Jennings passed away shortly thereafter and coincidentally just a few days before the long awaited NIST report on Building 7 was released to the public. It is quite possible that Jennings would have exposed the cover story of NIST, and their overall excuse that the 47 story building was the first and only skyscraper felled by fire. He never got that chance.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:49:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#775. To: Rotara (#770)

that's page one of google search 'Barry Jennings 911'. right now anyway.

I'm glad you mentioned that i.e., "right now anyway", as a lot of 911 research seems to have disappeared. I can no longer find the results of the independent test on Cellphones, nor the Military Pilots panel that analyzed the approach of the aircraft - concluding that they were maneuvers only explainable by assuming a real crackerjack pilot, or pilots, which the idiot patsies were most definitely not.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   14:52:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#776. To: Rotara (#767)

As I said, I'll give you and every Truther in the world 10,000 years to prove your case...you'll never do it.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-13   14:53:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#777. To: Original_Intent (#775)

I'm sure it's all just a GINORMOUS coinky-dinky...anyone seen Asshole Turdler ? Maybe awaiting further instructions ??


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:54:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#778. To: Turtle (#776)

As I said, I'll give you and every Truther in the world 10,000 years to prove your case...you'll never do it.

Yeah, Asshole Turdler, we see how well that worked out for Barry Jennings.

He was actually there, Asshole Turdler, and I wasn't. Or I'd be dead just like Barry Jennings, eh, Asshole Turdler ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   14:55:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#779. To: Rotara, Turdle (#777)

I'm sure it's all just a GINORMOUS coinky-dinky...anyone seen Asshole Turdler ? Maybe awaiting further instructions ??

There he is (#776) back making his asinine, totally unsupported and meritless, digs.

Turdle is not into facts and evidence - it hurts his head. Much easier and less effort to make snide comments which he can't back up and so refuses to do so.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   14:58:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#780. To: Rotara (#778)

10,000 years.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-13   14:58:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#781. To: Original_Intent, Rotara, Turtle (#780)

10,000 years.

Like that, you mean.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   15:01:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#782. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent (#781)

LOL !


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   15:02:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#783. To: Original_Intent, Rotara, Turtle (#779)

Turtle doesn't like truthers because a black guy mutilated a blonde girl's face in England with acid.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   15:03:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#784. To: Rotara (#782)

LOL !

LOL


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   15:04:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#785. To: Turtle (#780)

That dead NYC Nigger, Barry Jennings, was 1,000X the Man you could ever be, Asshole Turdler.

And your hide won't be off limits, the same as with any other Traitor, when the clock strikes out...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   15:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#786. To: wudidiz (#783)

Turtle doesn't like truthers because a black guy mutilated a blonde girl's face in England with acid.

what a crock of shit.

his/her agenda is simple, really...but he just can't come close to pulling it off without the facts fucking it all up.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-13   15:09:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#787. To: Rotara (#752)

world neo kommunists all the way...

They're in bed with the Obamessiah. 'Nuff said.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   15:57:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#788. To: FormerLurker (#754)

If the aircraft had hit the lawn first,

A) It would have left a crater. It did not leave a crater, in fact, it didn't even scratch the lawn. B) It would not have penetrated the Pentagon as it did. It more than likely would have tumbled and broken into pieces before hitting the Pentagon, which it didn't.

Indeed. To confirm that all you have to do is search for images of plane crashes and see how bad they tear up whatever they hit. And when they hit the ground they definitely leave marks and debris.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   15:59:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#789. To: Original_Intent (#757)

I had read that article about the people who run snopes a while back. That's how I knew they were in bed with Obama.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   16:03:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#790. To: Turtle (#764)

Conspiracism is a mental illness.

What do you call it when someone accepts the government's bogus conspiracy theory, the wackiest one of all? Surely, as the Toddler used to say, people who accept that story "have the disease of being mental." And not in a good way either.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   16:07:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#791. To: Original_Intent (#757)

Take what snopes says at face value and nothing more.

=============================

Pre-9/11 Snopes did 'OK' at confirming nickel and dime facts. The majority of everything on that site can be confirmed with a few phone calls to the sources.

Since 9/11, Snopes has tried to be an authority on the big ticket items, and are completely out of their league.

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   16:10:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#792. To: Original_Intent (#773)

The NIST Report has been through multiple revisions to try and patch the holes and misrepresentations, mainly by omitting critical data, discovered in each in every version. The original version gave less than a page to the collapse of WTC 7 and then just waved the magic authoritarian wand to make it disappear.

They could have covered the reason 7 fell with just three words--Magickal Jet Fuel™.

No plane hit it but apparently a few drops of the Magickal Jet Fuel™ splashed on it. And then all of a sudden it got tired and fell down. Makes as much sense as their stupid theory about the other two towers.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   16:16:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#793. To: James Deffenbach, ForAGAviatormerLurker, Original_Intent, abraxas, Turtle, Itistoolate, AGAviator (#788)

Indeed. To confirm that all you have to do is search for images of plane crashes and see how bad they tear up whatever they hit. And when they hit the ground they definitely leave marks and debris.

===============================================================

What is ironic is that all military plane crash archives are MAINTAINED at the Pentagon. USAF HQ in those archives are the most detailed plane crash archives in the world, as are the combined military aircraft expertise concentrate there in not just the USAF, but all other branches as well.

So, it is safe to say that the single-most concentrated and qualified expertise source in the world is located AT THE PENTAGON.

I have been in Search and Recovery operations on several military crash sites, and I can tell you a C-130 would cause FAR MORE DAMAGE to the Pentagon than what we saw reported, IMO.

I recall one F-105 Thud crash at a joint target range near China Lake back in 1974. That SINGLE aircraft, about 1/5th the size of the one claimed to have hit the Pentagon left a crater 15 feet deep and over 30 feet long. We found human remains (ONE SOUL ON BOARD) and aircraft parts hundreds of yards from the crash site. Granted, the impact occurred in soft desert ground, but the ancillary damage and wreckage spread was quite impressive.

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   16:36:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#794. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#793)

The plane that went down/was shot down in Pennsylvania scattered debris for something like EIGHT MILES and they want us to believe the passengers overcame the hijackers and they crashed into the ground. I doubt a crash into the ground would have scattered debris as far as eight miles.

Flight 93 Crash Site

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   16:48:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#795. To: James Deffenbach (#794)

The plane that went down/was shot down in Pennsylvania scattered debris for something like EIGHT MILES ..

===================================================

The trees would have intercepted the debris within a thousand feet of the debris entering the tree line.

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   16:51:51 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#796. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#795)

And they found one section of an engine that weighed a ton "2,000 yards" from the crash site. Well, 2,000 yards is more than a mile. And they want us to believe a plane hit the ground, just a regular crash or even a nose in crash, and a piece of the engine bounces for more than a mile before it stops?!?!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   16:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#797. To: James Deffenbach, HAPPY2BME-4UM, wudidiz, FormerLurker, all (#796) (Edited)

And they found one section of an engine that weighed a ton "2,000 yards" from the crash site. Well, 2,000 yards is more than a mile. And they want us to believe a plane hit the ground, just a regular crash or even a nose in crash, and a piece of the engine bounces for more than a mile before it stops?!?!

We only need a quick visit to Sir Isaac to put that one in the recycle bin:

"I. Every object in a state of uniform motion tends to remain in that state of motion unless an external force is applied to it. "

"II. The relationship between an object's mass m, its acceleration a, and the applied force F is F = ma. Acceleration and force are vectors (as indicated by their symbols being displayed in slant bold font); in this law the direction of the force vector is the same as the direction of the acceleration vector."

"III. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

A jet traveling in one direction, as long as it remains intact, will continue traveling in that same direction as long as there is no external force applied to change the vector (Newton's First Law of Motion). If a jet plane is traveling in a given direction all parts of it are traveling in the same direction. The kinetic energy of the jet and all its parts have an amount of energy bound up based upon their mass and velocity. With reference to the first law it is going to stay in motion unless acted upon by an external force.

The amount of energy bound up is KE = 1/2 mv squared - where KE equals Kinetic Energy, m = mass, and v = velocity. So the KE of the engine is 1/2 times 2,000 pounds times the velocity Squared say for argument's sake is 400 mph. So KE = 160,000,000 pounds. That is a lot of energy and it is going directly into an opposing force i.e., the ground. Now what would expect of an object with that much mass to do when it impacts the stationary ground? Hands please?

Yes, you in the back - Mr. Deffenbach.

Correct. It is going to plow straight into the ground and likely wind up a nearly unrecognizable lump of metal, and very possibly break up into a lot of smaller pieces. Since the engine is not of a material that will spring back from the extreme deformation of impact it is NOT going to bounce like a rubber ball, but instead the kinetic energy is going to be absorbed by the less than perfectly elastic ground. Translation: It is going to be an unrecognizable piece of junk - whatever little bit survives the impact. It is not going to bounce a mile from the impact.

So, what explanation best fits the observed phenomena? That the engine separated from the plane at some point "X", and following Newton's firs law continued on its trajectory at that time. This of course implies that the plane was already breaking up, or had been broken up, into pieces at some distance "Y" from the crash site.

So, dispensing with the pedagogical delivery: It was shot down, broke apart in the air and with the engine having been acted upon as per Newton's Third Law it arrived at a different impact point i.e., it's vector had been changed by the force of the explosion which separated it from the main body of the aircraft.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   17:39:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#798. To: James Deffenbach (#796)

5,280' = 1 mile.

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   17:58:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#799. To: Original_Intent, HAPPY2BME-4UM, wudidiz, FormerLurker (#797)

First minutes after Polish President plane crash...Amateur footage...Shots in the background???

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-13   18:05:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#800. To: All (#797)

Eight Hundred

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-13   18:07:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#801. To: Original_Intent (#800)

LOL


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-13   18:14:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#802. To: Rotara (#767)

it's a shame that this statist poster 'turtle' gets near the response that he does. i generally ignore his posts. he poses as q joker type but if you read the derision of truth seekers it's obvious that turtle is a creepy & sad person.

"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2010-07-13   19:02:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#803. To: Original_Intent (#797)

Perzackly. No way a plane engine is going to bounce over a mile from the point of impact. I hate for people to piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. And that is about what the government did with their stupid 9/11 stories. And the sad thing is that a lot of people took that in hook, line and sinker. Guess it goes to show how successful their dumbing down program. in the government schools has been.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-13   19:08:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#804. To: wudidiz, Turtle (#746)

Who are we gonna argue with then? Buck and Turtle?

Why not .... so far your lamer comments are limited to chemtrail chasing and piles of sarcastic remarcks.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-13   19:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#805. To: All (#804)

sarcastic remarcks

Nope, nothing wrong with this sky....

Oh look, I guess the jet engine turned off for a second here...


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   19:42:52 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#806. To: FormerLurker (#725)

Your photo is clearly taken after the fire was contained, and after the lawn has been scoured by the FBI and evidence collected. Not too many firemen looking busy at photo time.

Where did the small pieces on the lawn originally come from? Some from pieces breaking off when wings hit 5 light poles on the way in, others from the impact with the wall which caused an explosion and fireball sending things in all directions.







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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   19:52:46 ET  (7 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#807. To: FormerLurker (#736)

I'm gonna not post for the rest of the day.

I guess you're in trouble with your bosses, eh?

Too nice of a day to spend debunking Six Percenter articles of fatth that have been disproven for the last 8 years.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   19:59:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#808. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#740)

But Look at that Pentalawn 2000! It took an impact from a screaming 757 and is still intact.

More flippant hyperbole, the last arrow in your quiver.

The lawn was not struck because of ground effect, which creates a powerful air cushion beneath a rapidly traveling craft. The wings were apparently rocking, but not enough to hit the earth.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   20:04:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#809. To: FormerLurker (#718)

The blue line in the image below depicts the two officer's testimony, the red line is the path YOU and your pals claim the plane took.

So we have an incident with 2 separate explanations. First from 136 people including 103 who saw the impact saying 1 direction that includes light poles being hit, and second from 2 police officers who recollect different directions not hitting light poles.

Both say an aircraft and not a missile hit the building.

It's not completely uncommon in crises where there's only split seconds, to have differing eyewitness accounts. That's when forensic analysis comes in.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   20:11:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#810. To: AGAviator (#808)

lol.......this animation is your evidence?

Gee, couldn't the great animators make that video fit in any way that they wanted to? Not only planes knock over light poles, but other objects have this ability while making a much more plausible case for the perfect Pentalawn (TM-- JD).

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   20:13:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#811. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#809)

Although I'm sure the cartoon cost the taxpayers a lot of money, it is far from convincing.

Where are all the rest of the videos? That wasn't the only outdoor camera at the Pentagon.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   20:23:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#812. To: abraxas (#810)

lol.......this animation is your evidence?

The animation dovetails perfectly with news photgraphs that are also contained in the video.

Including photos from the security camera where the outline of the jet and the trailing smoke from the right engine show faintly but distinctly in a couple frames just before a massive fireball.

Making a much more plausible case for the perfect Pentalawn (TM-- JD).

lol....sitting back in a chair and making flippant internet remarks are your evidence?

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   20:24:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#813. To: wudidiz (#811)

cartoon cost the taxpayers a lot of money, it is far from convincing.

Denying and making flippant remarks does not advance your own case of a missile stike and unknown methods of killing all the passengers on the jet.

And the "cartoon" has complete conformity with news photos taken of debris and subsequent clean up work.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   20:27:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#814. To: AGAviator (#812)

The animation dovetails perfectly with news photgraphs that are also contained in the video.

Are you referring to the photos and the video footage that SHOW NO AIRPLANE?

There is no jet outline in that video. The "trailing smoke" is merely a theory created by folks who created the video. You presented the "evidence" and I merely commented on the lack of credibility within it. Epic fail on your part with that one.

Gee, I wonder why the DOD doesn't simply release ANY of the video tapes confiscated within an hour of the incident. Can you think of any reason why they wouldn't simply release that evidence? I mean that would provide folks like you who want to promote the government theory with real evidence, rather than splicing pretend airlplane animation with photos in a feeble attempt to make it fit.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   20:32:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#815. To: wudidiz (#811)

Watchu talkin' bout Wud? That cartoon clearly shows a 747 gliding in with no damage to the perfect Pentalawn.

Are you claiming that the MOST protected building on the planet, with the MOST protected airspace that happened to be penetrated by 19 evil doers with box knives, had more than one security camara?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   20:38:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#816. To: AGAviator, wudidiz (#813)

To wudidiz: Denying and making flippant remarks does not advance your own case of a missile stike and unknown methods of killing all the passengers on the jet.

And the "cartoon" has complete conformity with news photos taken of debris and subsequent clean up work.

Why can't a single fact or plausible suspicion by brought up as opposed to continuous denial and ridicule and conjecture? If wudidiz would at least place an idea worth research time, I would pursue the same.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-13   20:46:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#817. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#814) (Edited)

There is no jet outline in that video.

Wrong.

From 2:26 to 2:31 there is a real photo showing - out of focus, but directly above the tan stand and partially obscured by it - the dark tail fin of the 757. And a trailing spiral of white smoke from the right engine, which had just had pieces of a luminary go into it from a collision with a lamp post.

Then the scene reappears, I think running in reverse, from 2:36 to 2:42.

As far as Pentagon video photos, don't expect them to have high speed cameras recording the approaches of aircraft traveling hundred of miles per hour. They expected all encounters with fast moving aircraft to take place hundreds of miles away in Air Defense Zones, not on their own grounds.

I wonder why the DOD doesn't simply release ANY of the video tapes confiscated within an hour of the incident. Can you think of any reason why they wouldn't simply release that evidence?

Uhm, like having it in reserve for potential prosecution of criminal cases?

Or do you favor the prosecution disclosing every last piece of information they have prior to filing charges or making indictments?

How does that lack of providing everything to you, prove a missile hit instead of an aircraft, and all passengers on the 757 were killed elsewhere in some humungous conspiracy and mass murder?

Does the fact you don't get to see all the evidence yourself, give you license to promote whatever version you feel like, with zero supporting evidence of your own?

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   20:48:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#818. To: buckeroo, wudidiz (#816)

If wudidiz would at least place an idea worth research time, I would pursue the same.

In a couple days I'm going to put together a score sheet showing my evidence, and the unending flippant dismissals, denials of it, and unsupported conjectures, without any back up to support the opposing positions.

Then we'll revisit the claims of how I was going to get defeated in all these exchanges presumably because of the great intellectual CT posters here.

No hurry, but should be pretty interesting comparison of facts vs. rhetoric.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   20:53:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#819. To: , *9-11* (#818)

We're gonna have to wait in anxious anticipation...


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   21:01:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#820. To: AGAviator (#808)

The FDR data released by the NTSB contradicts the "official" flight path.

Why is that?


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-13   21:11:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#821. To: Critter (#820)

The FDR data released by the NTSB contradicts the "official" flight path.

Why is that?

Can you be more specific?

Whatever happened, needs to explain 5 lamps knocked down, numerous aircraft parts found inside and outside the crash site, over 130 witnesses seeing an airplane coming in, over 100 of them seeing it hitting, knocked sideways construction equipment outside the building, and a reason for a precision collision to hit a reworked section at less than optimum oblique angle which diluted impact force.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   21:22:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#822. To: wudidiz (#819)

We're gonna have to wait in anxious anticipation...

You can always practice your denials, dismissals, cherry picking and selective quotings, and obfuscations.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   21:23:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#823. To: AGAviator (#817)

From 2:26 to 2:31 there is a real photo showing - out of focus, but directly above the tan stand and partially obscured by it - the dark tail fin of the 757. And a trailing spiral of white smoke from the right engine, which had just had pieces of a luminary go into it from a collision with a lamp post.

Uhm, like having it in reserve for potential prosecution of criminal cases?

There is NO plane in that video. I know you really, really want to see one, but it isn't there. It isn't even there in reverse.

lol.....when are these prosecutions for 19 dead evil doers going to take place? OBL isn't even wanted by the FBI in connection to 911, despite Bush claiming he's a "prime" suspect. And how would showing the video of a plane hitting the Pentagon hinder the prosecution in anyway? It doesn't.

I never said it was a missile, I said there was NO 747 in the video, other than the cartoon one. What I stated was that other objects, not just a 747 that isn't in your "evidence" could have taken out a few light pole, however I made no claims as to what the other options might be.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   21:32:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#824. To: AGAviator (#822)

We're gonna have to wait in anxious anticipation...

You can always practice your denials, dismissals, cherry picking and selective quotings, and obfuscations.

I'll let you practice for me.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   21:37:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#825. To: wudidiz (#824)

What not giving a shit about who did 9/11 means: not having to wade through 824 posts of ludicrous bouts of parry/thrust over something that simply does not matter.

Jesus frapping Christ. 824 posts.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-13   21:41:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#826. To: abraxas (#823) (Edited)

There is NO plane in that video. I know you really, really want to see one, but it isn't there. It isn't even there in reverse

I didn't say there is a plane showing. The plane body is blocked by the rectangular tan post in the foreground. Only the tail shows, and that is out of focus due to its distance from the tan post.

I did say the dark tail is showing out of focus above the rectangular tan post. There is also a spiral of white trailing smoke starting above the red traffic cone to the right of the rectangular tan post.

The images are from a fish eye camera which can't be expected to focus in on all things at all distances at the same time. The primary focus of the fish eye camera is the entry gate, not the background. So background items are not as clear and the zoom function is needed to enhance.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   21:41:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#827. To: Samuel Gray (#825)

824 posts.

827.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   21:42:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#828. To: AGAviator, abraxas (#826)

Where are the rest of the videos? Why is that the only one we get to see?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   21:44:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#829. To: Samuel Gray (#825)

not having to wade through 824 posts of ludicrous bouts

Preparations to giving the subject a permanent burial.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   21:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#830. To: AGAviator (#826)

plane body is blocked

Only the tail shows, and that is out of focus

a spiral of white trailing smoke

images are from a fish eye camera which can't be expected to focus

Can't see the damn 747 in other words.

Can't see the damn tail in other words.

Yes, we can see smoke, smoke is NOT A 747.

Perhaps not, but YOU can't EXPECT others to see a 747 that ISN'T there, no matter how much you wish it to appear in the out of focus, blocked view, graining forward and reverse video clip that you are trying to attach to a cartoon and pass off as evidence.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   21:49:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#831. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#830)

attach to a cartoon and pass off as evidence

Hey, somebody got paid good to make that cartoon!


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-13   21:53:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#832. To: wudidiz (#828)

It's special evidence for the prosecution that isn't ever going to happen. I don't know why this one out of focus video is okay to release, but all the other angles could "jeoapardize" the prosecution according to AGAviator. In other words, it's bovine excrement.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   21:54:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#833. To: abraxas (#832)

I don't know why this one out of focus video is okay to release, but all the other angles could "jeoapardize" the prosecution according to AGAviator. In other words, it's bovine excrement.

So where's your evidence? You've had over 8 years.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   22:04:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#834. To: AGAviator (#833)

So where's your evidence? You've had over 8 years.

The evidence is on those confiscated video tapes........would easily put this to rest. The DOD doesn't respond to my requests for some reason, despite tax dollars paying for all of the coverage.

Then there's the private coverage taken from surrounding businesses that the government refuses to return.

It's funny that the direct evidence that could prove the government claims is being withheld from the people........don't you find that odd?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-13   22:11:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#835. To: AGAviator (#806)

Your photo is clearly taken after the fire was contained, and after the lawn has been scoured by the FBI and evidence collected.

Uh huh, sure it is...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   23:38:06 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#836. To: AGAviator (#806)

That "wreckage" (to the right of the car's bumper in the left side of the image) looks like a piece of a model airplane.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   23:41:32 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#837. To: AGAviator (#806)

So where are the wings? Where is the tail?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   23:42:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#838. To: AGAviator (#808)

The lawn was not struck because of ground effect, which creates a powerful air cushion beneath a rapidly traveling craft.

So great of an "air cushion" it would have been impossible for a 757 to fly level at that altitude and speed and hit the Pentagon without scraping the ground on the way trying to keep the nose down, or overflying the Pentagon altogether.


The Impossibility of
Flying Heavy Aircraft
Without Training 

NILA SAGADEVAN / Earth's Common Sense Think Tank 13jun2006

Nila Sagadevan is an aeronautical engineer and a qualified pilot of heavy aircraft.

[Mindfully.org note: Specifications for Boeing 757 and Cessna 172 are from Wikipedia. See other drawing below]

There are some who maintain that the mythical 9/11 hijackers, although proven to be too incompetent to fly a little Cessna 172, had acquired the impressive skills that enabled them to fly airliners by training in flight simulators.

What follows is an attempt to bury this myth once and for all, because I've heard this ludicrous explanation bandied about, at nauseam, on the Internet and the TV networks" "invariably by people who know nothing substantive about flight simulators, flying, or even airplanes.

A common misconception non-pilots have about simulators is how "easy" it is to operate them. They are indeed relatively easy to operate if the objective is to make a few lazy turns and frolic about in the "open sky". But if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 MPH, 30,000 feet above the ground the challenges become virtually impossible for an untrained pilot.

And this, precisely, is what the four hijacker pilots who could not fly a Cessna around an airport are alleged to have accomplished in multi-ton, high-speed commercial jets on 9/11.

For a person not conversant with the practical complexities of pilotage, a modern flight simulator could present a terribly confusing and disorienting experience. These complex training devices are not even remotely similar to the video games one sees in amusement arcades, or even the software versions available for home computers.

In order to operate a modern flight simulator with any level of skill, one has to not only be a decent pilot to begin with, but also a skilled instrument-rated one to boot and be thoroughly familiar with the actual aircraft type the simulator represents, since the cockpit layouts vary between aircraft.

The only flight domains where an arcade / PC-type game would even begin to approach the degree of visual realism of a modern professional flight simulator would be during the take-off and landing phases. During these phases, of course, one clearly sees the bright runway lights stretched out ahead, and even peripherally sees images of buildings, etc. moving past. Take-offs "even landings, to a certain degree" are relatively "easy" because the pilot has visual reference cues that exist "outside" the cockpit.

But once you've rotated, climbed out, and reached cruising altitude in a simulator (or real airplane), and find yourself en route to some distant destination (using sophisticated electronic navigation techniques), the situation changes drastically: the pilot loses virtually all external visual reference cues. She / he is left entirely at the mercy of an array of complex flight and navigation instruments to provide situational cues (altitude, heading, speed, attitude, etc.)

In the case of a Boeing 757 or 767, the pilot would be faced with an EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) panel comprised of six large multi-mode LCDs interspersed with clusters of assorted "hard" instruments. These displays process the raw aircraft system and flight data into an integrated picture of the aircraft situation, position and progress, not only in horizontal and vertical dimensions, but also with regard to time and speed as well. When flying "blind", i.e., with no ground reference cues, it takes a highly skilled pilot to interpret, and then apply, this data intelligently. If one cannot translate this information quickly, precisely and accurately (and it takes an instrument-rated pilot to do so), one would have ZERO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. I.e., the pilot wouldn't have a clue where she / he was in relation to the earth. Flight under such conditions is referred to as "IFR", or Instrument Flight Rules.

And IFR Rule #1: Never take your eyes off your instruments, because that's all you have!

The corollary to Rule #1: If you can't read the instruments in a quick, smooth, disciplined, scan, you are as good as dead. Accident records from around the world are replete with reports of any number of good pilots "i.e., professional instrument-rated pilots " who ‘bought the farm' because they screwed up while flying in IFR conditions.

Let me place this in the context of the 9/11 hijacker-pilots. These men were repeatedly deemed incompetent to solo a simple “Cessna-172”, an elementary exercise that involves flying this little trainer once around the patch on a sunny day. A student's first solo flight involves a simple circuit: take-off, followed by four gentle left turns ending with a landing back on the runway. This is as basic as flying can possibly get.

Not one of the hijackers was deemed fit to perform this most elementary exercise by himself, in fact, here is what their flight instructors had to say about the aptitude of these budding aviators:

Now let's take a look at American Airlines Flight 77. Passenger / hijacker Hani Hanjour rises from his seat midway through the flight, viciously fights his way into the cockpit with his cohorts, overpowers Captain Charles F. Burlingame and First Officer David Charlebois, and somehow manages to toss them out of the cockpit (for starters, very difficult to achieve in a cramped environment without inadvertently impacting the yoke and thereby disengaging the autopilot). One would correctly presume that this would present considerable difficulties to a little guy with a “box cutter". Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock, who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let's ignore this almost natural reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with this charade.

Nonetheless, imagine that Hanjour overpowers the flight deck crew, removes them from the cockpit and takes his position in the captain's seat. Although weather reports state this was not the case, let's say Hanjour was lucky enough to experience a perfect CAVU day (Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited). If Hanjour looked straight ahead through the windshield, or off to his left at the ground, at best he would see, 35,000 feet - - 7 miles - - below him, a murky brownish-gray-green landscape, virtually devoid of surface detail, while the aircraft he was now piloting was moving along, almost imperceptibly and in eerie silence, at around 500 MPH (about 750 feet every second).

In a real-world scenario (and given the reported weather conditions that day), he would likely have seen clouds below him completely obscuring the ground he was traversing. With this kind of "situational non-awareness", Hanjour might as well have been flying over Argentina, Russia, or Japan he wouldn't have had a clue as to where, precisely, he was.

After a few seconds (at 750 feet per second), Hanjour would figure out there's little point in looking outside - there is nothing there to give him any real visual cues. For a man who had previously wrestled with little Cessnas, following freeways and railroad tracks (and always in the comforting presence of an instructor), this would have been a strange, eerily unsettling environment indeed.

Seeing nothing outside, Mr. Hanjour would be forced to divert his attention to his instrument panel, where he would be faced with a bewildering array of instruments. He would then have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position!

After all, before he can crash into a target, he has to first find the target.

It is very difficult to explain this scenario, of an utter lack of ground reference, to non-pilots; but let it suffice to say that for these incompetent hijacker non-pilots to even consider grappling with such a daunting task would have been utterly overwhelming. They wouldn't have known where to begin.

But, for the sake of discussion let's stretch things beyond all plausibility and say that Hanjour - whose flight instructor claimed "couldn't fly at all" - somehow managed to figure out their exact position on the American landscape in relation to their intended target as they traversed the earth at a speed five times faster than they had ever flown by themselves before.

Once he had determined exactly where he was, he would need to figure out where the Pentagon was located in relation to his rapidly changing position. He would then need to plot a course to his target (one he cannot see with his eyes - remember, our ace is flying solely on instruments).

In order to perform this bit of electronic navigation, he would have to be very familiar with IFR procedures. None of these chaps even knew what a navigational chart looked like, much less how to plug information into flight management computers (FMC) and engage LNAV (lateral navigation automated mode). If one is to believe the official story, all of this was supposedly accomplished by raw student pilots, while flying blind at 500 MPH, (about 750 feet every second) over 30,000 feet high and above the unfamiliar ground, (and practically invisible) terrain, using complex methodologies and employing sophisticated instruments.

To get around this little problem, the official storyline suggests these men manually flew their aircraft to their respective targets (NB: This still wouldn't relieve them of the burden of navigation). But let's assume Hanjour disengaged the autopilot and auto-throttle and hand-flew the aircraft to its intended - and invisible - target on instruments alone until such time as he could get a visual fix. This would have necessitated him to fly back across West Virginia and Virginia to Washington DC. - - This portion of the Flight 77's flight path cannot be corroborated by any radar evidence that exists, because the aircraft is said to have suddenly disappeared from radar screens over Ohio, but let's not mull over that little point. - -

According to FAA radar controllers, "Flight 77" then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees per minute while descending at 3,500 feet per minute, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver, - - one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn't have spelt the word if his life depended on it. - -

The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane."

And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him.

But even that wasn't good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his "missile" was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon - and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men's lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway - -, there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing. - -

I shan't get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.)

Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000 pounds airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH.

The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jets), i.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile.

Why the stipulation of 20 feet and a mile? There were several street light poles located up to a mile away from the Pentagon that were snapped-off by the incoming aircraft; this suggests a low, flat trajectory during the final pre-impact approach phase. Further, it is known that the craft impacted the Pentagon's ground floor. For purposes of reference: If a 757 were placed on the ground on its engine nacelles (I.e., gear retracted as in flight profile), its nose would be almost 20 above the ground! Ergo, for the aircraft to impact the ground floor of the Pentagon, Hanjour would have needed to have flown in with the engines buried 10-feet deep in the Pentagon lawn. Some pilot.

At any rate, why is such ultra-low-level flight aerodynamically impossible? Because the reactive force of the hugely powerful downwash sheet, coupled with the compressibility effects of the tip vortices, simply will not allow the aircraft to get any lower to the ground than approximately one half the distance of its wingspan - until speed is drastically reduced, which, of course, is what happens during normal landings.

In other words, if this were a Boeing 757 as reported, the plane could not have been flown below about 60 feet above ground at 400 MPH. (Such a maneuver is entirely within the performance envelope of aircraft with high wing-loadings, such as ground-attack fighters, the B1-B bomber, and Cruise missiles - and the Global Hawk.)

The very same navigational challenges mentioned above would have faced the pilots who flew the two 767s into the Twin Towers, in that they, too, would have had to have first found their targets. Again, these chaps, too, miraculously found themselves spot on course. And again, their "final approach" maneuvers at over 500 MPH are simply far too incredible to have been executed by pilots who could not solo basic training aircraft.

Conclusion
The writers of the official storyline expect us to believe, that once the flight deck crews had been overpowered, using “box cutters" and the hijackers "took control" of the various aircraft, their intended targets suddenly popped up in their windshields as they would have in some arcade game, and all that these fellows would have had to do was simply aim their airplanes at the buildings and fly into them. Most people who have been exposed only to the official storyline have never been on the flight deck of an airliner at altitude and looked at the outside world; if they had, they would realize the absurdity of this kind of reasoning.

In reality, a clueless non-pilot would encounter almost insurmountable difficulties in attempting to navigate and fly a 200,000 pounds airliner into a building located on the ground, 7 miles below and hundreds of miles away and out of sight, and in an unknown direction, while flying at over 500 MPH - and all this under extremely stressful circumstances.

About the Author: Nila Sagadevan was born in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and educated in Britain. A former commercial pilot, he holds a degree in aeronautical engineering from the University of Edinburgh and works as a communications consultant. He lives with his wife and son in Laguna Hills, CA. and may be reached at nila@omnicomltd.com

source: http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/911_Impossible_Flying_757.html 13jun2006

scaled drawing from Boeing website simplified by Mindfully.org 14jun2006



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   23:49:24 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#839. To: FormerLurker (#835)

Your photo is clearly taken after the fire was contained, and after the lawn has been scoured by the FBI and evidence collected.

Uh huh, sure it is...

You make my point.

Where are the teams of firemen, and the multiple hoses pumping multiple streams of water onto the few remaining burning spots. I see what looks like one hose extending to the end of the lawn with nobody at its end.

Where are the fires and firemen tending to the black scorched sections.

Last but not least, when was the photo actually taken. How much time after impact, specifically.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-13   23:49:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#840. To: AGAviator (#809)

So we have an incident with 2 separate explanations. First from 136 people including 103 who saw the impact saying 1 direction that includes light poles being hit, and second from 2 police officers who recollect different directions not hitting light poles.

So you're saying that the two Pentagon officers who saw an aircraft flying NORTH of the Citgo station are lying?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   23:52:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#841. To: AGAviator (#839)

Where are the teams of firemen, and the multiple hoses pumping multiple streams of water onto the few remaining burning spots. I see what looks like one hose extending to the end of the lawn with nobody at its end.

The fire is still burning you moron. Have any pictures of the debris being collected while the fire was still raging?

Oh, and where are the wings, and where is the tail?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-13   23:53:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#842. To: AGAviator (#808)

The video you posted indicates the aircraft that struck the Pentagon took an approach identical to what the 2 police officers witnessed, not what the 100 or so other witnesses saw...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   0:02:08 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#843. To: FormerLurker (#837)

So where are the wings? Where is the tail?

Remember that "oblique angle" of collision I've mentioned, instead of a 90 degree head on impact?

With the oblique angle the starboard wing was impacting the entire wall on its leading edge at the same time, the perfect setup for grinding it into shreds against the building wall almost instantly.

The port wing in the oblique angle collision would have been too far away from 90 degrees to do much damage, and could have been easily folded back into the fuselage in the original collision.

Finally at impact there was a huge blast igniting the fuel tanks.

Whatever didn't get shredded (starboard) or folded back (port) would have been pushed out in all directions into the air, and the fragmented pieces rained back down onto the lawn. Where the pieces were picked up by teams of firemen and FBI gathering evidence.

ERROR: 'The Wings of a 757 Should Have Been Visible Outside the Pentagon'

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   0:04:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#844. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#842)

The video you posted indicates the aircraft that struck the Pentagon took an approach identical to what the 2 police officers witnessed, not what the 100 or so other witnesses saw...

It's not the identical angle. Close but not the same. It's much closer to the angle of the blue line than that of the red line though.


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-14   0:07:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#845. To: FormerLurker (#842)

The video you posted indicates the aircraft that struck the Pentagon took an approach identical to what the 2 police officers witnessed, not what the 100 or so other witnesses saw.

What needs to be explained is the clipping of the light poles, the bumping of the construction materials, the presence of aircraft parts on the lawn, the size of the entry hole, and the presence of scorched aircraft parts inside aand outside the building.

In crisis situations forensic analysis is frequently used to corroborate or disprove eyewitness testimony. Many people get convicted by eyewitnesses but later get released when forensics shows they couldn't have done it. Witnesses are a good start, there's usually a germ of truth in their accounts, but aren't always the complete picture of what happened.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   0:10:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#846. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, abraxas, James Deffenbach, *9-11* (#843)

With the oblique angle the starboard wing was impacting the entire wall on its leading edge at the same time, the perfect setup for grinding it into shreds against the building wall almost instantly.

The port wing in the oblique angle collision would have been too far away from 90 degrees to do much damage, and could have been easily folded back into the fuselage in the original collision.

Finally at impact there was a huge blast igniting the fuel tanks.

Whatever didn't get shredded (starboard) or folded back (port) would have been pushed out in all directions into the air, and the fragmented pieces rained back down onto the lawn. Where the pieces were picked up by teams of firemen and FBI gathering evidence.

^This one's new to me.

"If physics won't explain it, just make something up that will. Most people are stupid and will believe it just because a University or the Government or the TV says it's true."


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-14   0:42:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#847. To: AGAviator (#843)

Whatever didn't get shredded (starboard) or folded back (port) would have been pushed out in all directions into the air, and the fragmented pieces rained back down onto the lawn. Where the pieces were picked up by teams of firemen and FBI gathering evidence.

Ok, so where's all this evidence? Is it stored somewhere?

Where are the pictures of the "evidence" being removed and moved?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   1:05:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#848. To: FormerLurker (#847)

Maybe they hid the evidence so noone could ever prove they didn't have it?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-14   1:16:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#849. To: AGAviator (#845)

As far as the two cops, they were both at different locations. They BOTH insist they saw an aircraft fly north of the Citgo station, and impact the Pentagon, and DEFINITELY not coming from south of the Citgo station.

They both say they saw light poles go down, but not south of the Citgo station, but on the path that they saw coming from north of the Citgo station.

Additionally, the trajectory shown in your video agrees with the more northerly approach, and can not be twisted to show what the offical story's southerly path claims, UNLESS there was a SECOND aircraft that overflew the Pentagon coming from that direction.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   1:25:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#850. To: wudidiz (#848)

Maybe they hid the evidence so noone could ever prove they didn't have it?

I've never heard it mentioned what happened with all that wreckage, have you?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   1:26:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#851. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz (#850)

I've never heard it mentioned what happened with all that wreckage, have you?

There are youtubes of a reporter who was on the scene saying there was no wreckage. In later interviews he talks about looking at the wreckage. Makes you wonder.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-14   1:33:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#852. To: FormerLurker (#850)

I've never heard it mentioned what happened with all that wreckage, have you?

Didn't they send it to China?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-14   1:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#853. To: farmfriend, FormerLurker (#851)

Maybe he couldn't see the wreckage because they hadn't place it on the grass yet?


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-14   1:40:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#854. To: All (#852)

Didn't they send it to China?

That's where everybody sends their wreckage...


“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-14   1:41:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#855. To: farmfriend, wudidiz (#851)

There are youtubes of a reporter who was on the scene saying there was no wreckage. In later interviews he talks about looking at the wreckage. Makes you wonder.

Maybe he was "made an offer he couldn't refuse"...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   1:52:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#856. To: wudidiz (#852)

Didn't they send it to China?

I've heard that about the WTC debris, but not about the Pentagon wreckage. The NTSB is supposed to hold onto wreckage from airplane crashes.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   1:53:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#857. To: FormerLurker (#847) (Edited)

Pentagon Missile Hoax

Reasons for no-plane hoaxes:
*discredit the skeptics, alienate those inside-the-Beltway
*discredit the skeptics with a straw man argument
*redirect the skeptics into a false debate (no plane vs. no complicity)
*protect the plotters from political / military insiders thinking that it was an inside job
*the fake debate between no plane and no complicity gets the Bush regime off the hook
*there is zero evidence for any of the "no plane" claims - hundreds of people saw Flight 77, none saw a cruise missile, Global Hawk robot plane, smaller plane or flying saucer piloted by giant lizards
*the physical evidence shows that a large twin engine jet hit the nearly empty part of the Pentagon, the "Black Boxes" were found, cleanup crews found remains of the passengers, the "hole was too small" claim was a hoax
*making 9/11 complicity dependent on the no- plane claim was a brilliant tactic to discredit the real evidence for people inside the Beltway, both for the majority who vote against Bush and the political / military elites (especially the military officers who saw the plane crash or the plane debris)
*the material on this page and all of the websites that are linked here should finally extinguish the "no plane" hoax -- except for those who have staked their credibility on these claims and cannot admit a mistake, and those who intentionally promote the hoax.
Every claim for the "no plane" hoaxes is refuted here or at a page linked from this page.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   1:59:35 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#858. To: FormerLurker (#841)

The fire is still burning you moron

"Smouldering" is more like it except for 1-2 hot spots.

Where's the sense of urgency about putting it out, Twoffer?

For the third time, what time were the photo's taken?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   2:07:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#859. To: AGAviator (#857)

Did you know that the cockpit door was NOT opened during all of Flight 77's doomed flight?

Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack”


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   2:09:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#860. To: AGAviator (#857)

Where is the wreckage being stored? Where are pictures of the trucks carting it away, or of the trucks being loaded with the wreckage?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   2:11:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#861. To: AGAviator (#821)

Can you be more specific?

Watch the whole thing, or if your too lazy, fast forward to 39:00.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-14   6:22:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#862. To: wudidiz (#846)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-14   7:28:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#863. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter (#859) (Edited)

Did you know that the cockpit door was NOT opened during all of Flight 77's doomed flight?

Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack”

Once again a CT site fails to report all the information, holding back full disclosure of facts that will fail to support wild non-hijacking theories. Thereby serving as an instigator for conflict between Six Percenters hardliners and the much larger "certain elements within USG allowed 911 to happen" group.

The flight data recorder was at least partially melted, and not only did not indicate any movement of Flight 75's cabin door on September 11, it also did not show any movement for 40 hours and 11 flights prior to Flight 75 on September 11.

Why aren't the CT sites saying this?

This information was submitted as evidence at the Massoui trial in Virginia.

Why aren't the weasely "Scholars" and "Truthers" disclosing it?

American Airlines Flight 77

The NTSB reported that "The majority of the recording tape was fused into a solid block of charred plastic." No usable segments of tape were found inside the recorder.[85]

The Flight Data Recorder failed to record certain parameters with certainty. Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   7:49:11 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#864. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, X-15, critter, Original_Intent, wudidz, farmfriend, noone222, abraxas, Itistoolate, ALL (#863)

The NTSB reported that "The majority of the recording tape was fused into a solid block of charred plastic." No usable segments of tape were found inside the recorder.[85]

Did you make that up yourself? The NTSB reported that the Flight Data Recorder on Flight 77 was a SOLID STATE FDR, not an older tape based FDR.

Flight 77 Flight Data Recorder Report


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   8:02:21 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#865. To: All (#864)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   8:05:48 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#866. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#865) (Edited)

How about carefully reviewing your "Comments/Response"s before hitting the "This looks good - Post it" button.

"Only validated paramaters are included in the plots and tabular data in this report...The remaining parameters either were not recorded properly, or were not confirmed to have been recorded properly, and are not included in this report."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   8:15:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#867. To: AGAviator (#863)

The Flight Data Recorder failed to record certain parameters with certainty. Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking."

The plane won't take off if a sensor is faulty. The FDR is notified by a sensing circuit if a sensor fails on a monitored parameter, and the cockpit door status is one of the parameters that it's supposed to record, every 4 seconds as a matter of fact.

Then again, according to you the FDR's "tape" was charred and unusable, yet it didn't use tape.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   8:17:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#868. To: AGAviator (#866)

How about carefully reviewing your "Comments/Response"s before hitting the "This looks good - Post it" button.

How about finding better sources that can at least get the TYPE of flight data recorder right, and not concoct lies about "tape being melted"?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   8:18:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#869. To: AGAviator (#863) (Edited)

So are you going to retract your "melted tape" story?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   8:32:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#870. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, X-15 (#869)

You and/or your source appear to be embellishing

My sources are linked.

Read them, click on the numbers where present instead of continuing to make accusations.

Now where's any equally researched material for your versions...

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   8:36:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#871. To: FormerLurker (#869)

So are you going to retract your "melted tape" story?

Seems like you need a hand-holding narration of what this photo is of, even though it is sourced about 5 different ways on a link I already provided.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   8:40:09 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#872. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#866)

Well HERE'S something interesting...

From Pilots For 9/11 Truth Forum

tnemelckram View Member Profile Nov 28 2009, 07:27 PM Post #70

Group: Contributor Posts: 664 Joined: 30-January 08 Member No.: 2,690

Hi WStutt!

Many thanks for all your work. You have enabled Rob to take a huge leap forward.

You seem to take a neutral position as to drawing conclusions. I think I understand why - one cannot see how your decoding program works so it has to be trusted implicitly by everyone regardless of their opinion. You can't appear to have an agenda and enjoy that kind of universal trust as an honest broker at the same time!

I looked at your three decode files of what appear to be the plane's historical airport locations (Complete, Complete One Line and Complete One Line With Airport Locations). I was unable to tie them into the csv file for the last flight FDR data (Final Flight complete) by matching the bit or frame or whatever they are numbers. SO I am unsure exactly what the former three files represent, starting with their time frame, and more particularly how they tie in to the Final Flight data.

But I did notice the final fourteen locations. Starting at fourteenth from last and going down the list, numbers 14 through 3 are Dulles Airport, which is where the last location would necessarily have to be to fit the Official Story. But then, next to last is "TISX","Henry E Rohlsen Airport","Christiansted, St Croix, U.S.V.I." Then last, intruigingly enough, is ,"KFVE","Northern Aroostook Regional Airport","Frenchville, Maine, USA". WHHHAAATTT!!!

I see from the above Posts there are a total of eleven flights for *whatever this plane is* recorded in the FDR data.I gather from your posts that you have decoded them. ANd how the next to last flight ties into the last flight seems to be important. Theortically, the coordinates when the plane is shut down on the enxt to last flight should be at Dulles just as the coordinates for the last flight start at Dullles.

So have you decoded the other flights? Could you make available at least the starting and final coordinates for each one of the prior ten flights?

It might be interesting to see how they jibe.

rob balsamo View Member Profile Nov 28 2009, 07:43 PM Post #71

Group: Admin Posts: 7,962 Joined: 13-August 06 Member No.: 1

QUOTE (tnemelckram @ Nov 28 2009, 07:27 PM) But I did notice the final fourteen locations. Then last, intruigingly enough, is ,"KFVE","Northern Aroostook Regional Airport","Frenchville, Maine, USA". WHHHAAATTT!!!

Whaaaaa is right.....

KFVE is not served by American Airlines....not to mention the runway is only 4600 feet, nor can the airport provide services for a 757.... or.. .can it...... (insert twilight zone music here).

Where is this "Complete One Line With Airport Locations" file? I cant find it on Warren's site.

"Henry E Rohlsen Airport","Christiansted, St Croix, U.S.V.I. is also not served by American according to their website.

Where is this data coming from?

tnemelckram View Member Profile Nov 28 2009, 08:03 PM Post #72

Group: Contributor Posts: 664 Joined: 30-January 08 Member No.: 2,690

Hi Rob!

QUOTE (rob balsamo @ Nov 28 2009, 07:43 PM) Where is this "Complete One Line With Airport Locations" file? I cant find it on Warren's site.

Where is this data coming from?

Here's a link to the page with the download links for the three files I referred to in the Post including Complete One Line With Airport Locations. Both that file and the other files also appear to have INS type coordinates from which the location can be determined even without the airport names:

http://www.warrenstutt.com/AAL77FDRPartial...iles/index.html

EDIT TO ADD: The airport list also shows that the plane flew to American Samoa and Palau on what appears to be a South Pacific Tour and then to Barrow Alaska at some point in its doomed and checkered career. Also note that the St Croix location appears many times earlier on in the list of airports suggesting perhaps some kind of regularity about that location.

This post has been edited by tnemelckram: Nov 28 2009, 08:14 PM

rob balsamo View Member Profile Nov 28 2009, 08:18 PM Post #73

Group: Admin Posts: 7,962 Joined: 13-August 06 Member No.: 1

Alright, there is something very strange with those locations. If those locations are correct, and it came from the AA 77 FDR file as suggested by the header on Warrens page, there is NO WAY that aircraft is a 757 flying passenger service for American Airlines.

This could be bigger than the closed door article.

Warren, please explain these locations.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   8:42:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#873. To: AGAviator, ALL (#871)

URL = http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Flight_77_CVR.jpg/220px-Flight_77_CVR.jpg

Hey genius, did you know that the image you are posting is that of the the COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER, and NOT an image of the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER, and the very name of the file you are linking indicates that?

Here's a link to the Wiki page you found it on... Wiki link

Again, here's the NTSB statement concering the FDR, which is a SOLID STATE device, NOT a TAPE BASED device. In fact, EVEN the Wiki page you visited indicates the image you posted is that of the cockpit voice recorder, NOT the flight data recorder. You purposely "creatively edited" to give a false impression, and weren't even honest enough or smart enough to admit your mistake, if it WAS a mistake and not an outright lie.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   8:54:14 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#874. To: FormerLurker (#873) (Edited)

Two black box devices were recovered at the same time, pinhead.

One was the Cockpit Voice Recorder which was melted, fused into its housing, and wasn't giving any cabin conversation information.

Two was the Flight Data Recorder which didn't show any information about cabin door operation, for either the current flight, or the 11 flights previous.

Either way, there's nothing to support the k00ktheory you're pushing is that somehow the Pentagon hijackers didn't take over the cabin because black box data doesn't say that the door opened and closed. The reason the black box data doesn't say doors opened and closed is because they both were seriously damaged in the crash, and not working 100% during and before recovery.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   9:09:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#875. To: AGAviator (#874)

Two black box devices were recovered at the same time, pinhead.

One was the Cockpit Voice Recorder which was melted, fused into its housing, and wasn'nt giving any cabin conversation information.

Two was the Flight Data Recorder which didn't show any information about cabin door operation, for either the current flight, or the 11 flights previous

You posted the following line in reference to the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER, we were NOT discussing the COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER.

The NTSB reported that "The majority of the recording tape was fused into a solid block of charred plastic." No usable segments of tape were found inside the recorder.[85]


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   9:14:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#876. To: FormerLurker (#875) (Edited)

You posted the following line in reference to the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER, we were NOT discussing the COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER.

There were 2 black boxes recovered.

Neither the cockpit voice reporter, nor the flight data recorder, show anything one way or the other about cabin entries and exits.

Consequently you can't use either device's info to claim the hijackers couldn't have possibly entered the cabin and taken over because of device information contradicting this.

The data to support this does not exist.

If you want to say why the data doesn't exist, go back to the equipment maintenance logs kept by the certified aircraft mechanics and then go forward from there.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-14   9:24:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#877. To: AGAviator (#876)

The aircraft would not have taken off if the FDR wasn't recording that parameter correctly.

The door is SUPPOSED to be closed during flight, and that IS what the data indicates, where the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter in the data set provided by the NTSB DOES indicate a CLOSED (0) state.

In fact, it would be UNUSUAL for the status to indicate the door had been opened on ANY of the previous flights since the door is SUPPOSED to stay closed during flight, and the recorder ONLY records the door state (along with ANY other parameter) while the engines are running, not while the plane's engines are shut down which would be the case between flights.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-14   17:26:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#878. To: AGAviator (#863)

What? No comment on post 861?

The FDR data does not support the official fairy tale.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-14   21:26:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#879. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#842)

North of the Citgo is not only the path according to witnesses, but also according to FDR data. See this new thread: freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=120594


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-14   22:16:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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