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Title: Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack”
Source:
Rock Creek Free Press
URL Source: http://rockcreekfreepress.tumblr.com/post/285492999/flt77fdr
Published: Dec 15, 2009
Author: Sheila Casey
Post Date: 2010-07-14 02:07:35 by FormerLurker
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Keywords: Flight 77, 9/11, Black Box
Views: 22650
Comments: 913
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack"
By Sheila Casey / Rock Creek Free Press
Pilots for 9/11 Truth has reported that the data stream from the flight data recorder (FDR) for American Airlines flight 77, which allegedly struck the Pentagon on 9/11, shows that the cockpit door never opened during the entire 90 minute flight. The data was provided by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which has refused to comment.
The FDR is one of two “black boxes” in every commercial airliner, which are used after accidents to help determine the cause of a crash. One black box records flight data, the other records voice data (everything said in the cockpit during the flight). With those two sets of data, NTSB investigators can usually piece together the events that led to a crash. The status of the door to the cockpit is checked every four seconds throughout a flight and relayed as a simple 0 or 1, where 0=closed and 1=open, with approximately 1,300 door status checks performed during AA77’s 90 minute flight. Every one of those door status checks shows as a 0, indicating that the door to the cockpit never opened during the entire flight.
Accident investigators monitor the cockpit door with the FDR because it may yield clues to pilot error in a crash. The FDR begins recording once the pilots are in their seats and readying for takeoff, and the plane cannot take off unless the FDR is working.
The official story about flight 77 is that five Muslim terrorists brandishing box cutters forced their way into the cockpit and herded two pilots, four flight attendants and all the passengers to the back of the plane. This story came into being via Ted Olson, US Solicitor General, who told CNN — that he received two phone calls from his wife Barbara Olson, a passenger on the doomed flight. Ted Olson’s story changed several times. Sometimes he claimed that the calls from his wife were made from seat back phones, other times that she used her cell phone.
According to American Airlines customer service, the American Airlines maintenance manual for that aircraft, and American Airlines Captain Ralph Kolstad, seatback phones on 757s had been deactivated prior to 9/11/01. (They were later removed entirely, as they never worked well.)
Barbara Olson couldn’t have used a cell phone either: numerous 9/11 researchers, most notably David Ray Griffin, have pointed out that cell phones did not work on airplanes on 9/11. The speed and altitude of a commercial airliner both present overwhelming obstacles to a cell phone’s need to lock onto a cell tower and then hand off to another tower in a new location.
It was the FBI that revealed the evidence that decisively disproves Ted Olson’s story. In the Zacarias Moussaoui trial in 2006, the FBI presented a report on the cell phone calls from all four 9/11 flights. Their report on AA77 shows that there was only one phone call from Barbara Olson, but that it was an unconnected call lasting zero seconds. So Ted Olson either lied about receiving calls from his wife or was deceived into believing he received calls from her.
According to the UK Telegraph, Barbara Olson delayed her flight on 9/11 so that she could have breakfast with her husband on his birthday. That delay put her on the doomed flight. Ted Olson remarried in 2006 to tax attorney Lady Booth, whom he reportedly met the year after Barbara died.
There are numerous oddities and contradictions about AA77’s black boxes.
The government claims that the voice data recorder was damaged during the crash and that no usable data was retrieved from it. If true, this would be the first time in aviation history that a solid-state data recorder was destroyed during a crash.
While it was widely reported in the media that the FDR for AA77 was found at 4 am on September 14, 2001, the file containing the FDR data was dated over four hours earlier. In other words, we are asked to believe that the data from the FDR was downloaded prior to the FDR being found.
Researcher Aidan Monagahan has established that the NTSB does not have either serial or part numbers for the FDRs from AA77. The NTSB’s own handbook indicates that the part number and serial number of the FDR are required for data readout of the FDR. The NTSB did not have this information, giving us another reason to question how the FDR data was created.
Structural engineer Allyn Kilsheimer claimed that he personally found AA77’s black box on 9/11. But in the Popular Mechanics book Debunking 9/11 Myths, Kilsheimer is quoted as saying, “I stood on a pile of debris that we later found contained the black box 70;”
Kilsheimer’s story changes again in August 2007 in a piece done by the History Channel, “The 9/11 Conspiracies,” where he claims “I tripped over something; it was the black box.”
In earlier work, Pilots for 9/11 Truth (P4T) has determined that the same data set provided by the NTSB shows the plane too high to hit the Pentagon, based on an altimeter that uses air pressure to calibrate altitude.
As reported in the April 2009 Rock Creek Free Press, Citizen Investigation Team, citizen journalists from southern California, has collected evidence from 14 eyewitnesses that shows that the plane seen that morning near the Pentagon did not hit the building, but flew over it at the moment explosives detonated in the Pentagon, leading observers to conclude that the plane had crashed into the Pentagon.
Questions about what happened at the Pentagon have intrigued 9/11 researchers for years, beginning with photos from the alleged crash scene which do not show the wreckage of a plane.
This new evidence, showing that the cockpit door never opened during flight, is another nail in the coffin of the official story about flight 77. Clearly, if the cockpit door never opened, then hijackers did not storm the cockpit and herd the pilots to the back of the plane. The data, which originated from the government, does not support the government’s story.
Why would the government release data which contradicts its own version of events? It is possible they were just sloppy, or that they never anticipated that anyone would parse the data as carefully as Pilots for 9/11 Truth have. They may have also felt secure, that regardless of what damning revelations were contained in the FDR data, no mainstream media outlet would give them ink or air time, keeping the official story intact for the vast majority of Americans who receive their news from mainstream sources.
Rob Balsamo, founder of Pilots for 9/11 Truth, stated: “We have not located any independently verified data which confirms the government’s story. The FBI and NTSB refuse to comment.” Founded in August 2006, Pilots For 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals from around the globe who are investigating the government’s claims about the attacks of 9/11.
Sheila Casey is a DC based journalist. Her work has appeared in The Denver Post, Reuters, Chicago Sun-Times, Dissident Voice and Common Dreams.
Poster Comment:
Here's a link to the Pilots for 9/11 Truth articles on the matter. 9/11: PENTAGON AIRCRAFT HIJACK IMPOSSIBLE
(1 image)
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#1. To: Original_Intent, abraxas, HAPPY2BME-4UM, wudidiz, Twenty Twelve, Horse, Lod, christine, ALL (#0)
Anybody ever hear of this before?
So what are YOUR thoughts on this?
Anybody see this before?
The black box wasn't on a 757 that hit the pentagon.
Thanks for posting this.
It looks like this article was published in December 2009. It has taken awhile to get much exposure. The data was provided by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which has refused to comment. This is bothersome when we all know this administration has committed to "transparency" ... I'd like to see some verification of the contents of this FDR from the NTSB. All of that being said, isn't it a bit ridiculous for a commercial jet that was known to be hijacked for an hour and a half to be left alone to hit the Pentagon ?
Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces
no but I did hear about an 'indestructable passport'.
Thing is, if the cockpit door remained closed the entire flight, then the aircraft wasn't hijacked.
I have always been of the opinion that the planes were flown by remote control. I think there may have been A-Rab contract agents on the planes thinking their mission was to hijack the planes they were on ... but they were expendable pawns. Dov Zakheim (Comptroller of the Pentagon) had formerly been the CEO of System Planning ... a company that developed, installed and maintained remote control devices for large aircraft. (Just saying ... ) System Planning had a subsidiary company, TRI-DATA, that was contracted to do the clean up after the 1st Trade Center attack ... mmm had opportunity to plan for the next WTC event (9-11).
Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
New to me as well, I just found it by looking up a bit of info in regards to the Pentagon aircraft wreckage, and stumbled across it. We have AGAviator to thank, without his prodding I wouldn't have found it.
I haven't paid attention to him or his fans for quite some time. I never really liked him, he seemed to me like a big fat blowhard from the first time I saw him on TV.
Anybody see this before? ============================================== Not come across this one before.
U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack” Once again a CT site fails to report all the information, holding back full disclosure of facts that will fail to support wild non-hijacking theories. Thereby serving as an instigator for conflict between Six Percenters hardliners and the much larger "certain elements within USG allowed 911 to happen" group. The flight data recorder was at least partially melted, and not only did not indicate any movement of Flight 75's cabin door on September 11, it also did not show any movement for 40 hours and 11 flights prior to Flight 75 on September 11. Why aren't the CT sites saying this? This information was submitted as evidence at the Massoui trial in Virginia. Why aren't the weasely "Scholars" and "Truthers" disclosing it? The NTSB reported that "The majority of the recording tape was fused into a solid block of charred plastic." No usable segments of tape were found inside the recorder.[85] The Flight Data Recorder failed to record certain parameters with certainty. Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anybody ever hear of this before? Not sure. I might have run into it, in passing, in another article, but am not sure. However, regardless, it is a datum which in its singularity refutes the entire government "Official Conspiracy Theory™". {For AGGravator - "singularity" means "all by itself" with overtones of it being unusual or anomalous (anomalous means something not normally expected).}
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The problem you run into with your phony debunker web site data is that: A. Pilots for 911 Truth is made up of Commercial Pilots and Accident Investigators. B. They used the data released by the NTSB. I think at this point it is quite clear that you are most likely a paid operative.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Isn't it just so awful that all these intelligent and well educated people refuse to believe the gubbermint and insist on forming conclusions based on the evidence. Of course you are paid to try and explain all the evidence away as something else. What's your back up career? Guard in a Snuff Camp?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Absolutely. I'm pretty sure it works for CENTCOM. Probably a PFC looking for another stripe.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The NTSB reported that "The majority of the recording tape was fused into a solid block of charred plastic." No usable segments of tape were found inside the recorder.[85] I've already corrected you on this. You're posting the above image and text in a dishonest and misleading effort to imply that there is no FDR data, since you are saying here that the NTSB reports that the ""The majority of the recording tape was fused into a solid block of charred plastic." No usable segments of tape were found inside the recorder.[85] " As I pointed out to you on the other thread, your very own link indicates this is the COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER, NOT the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER. You are posting an image along with "creatively edited" text in order to portray it as the FDR in an effort to debunk this article. That's less than honest now isn't it, AGAviator. Here's the text that goes with the image you are brandishing about; As I've shown you on the other thread, the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER is a SOLID STATE device, in other words, it uses a memory card, NOT a TAPE. whoa. i have not seen this before.
What's plainly obvious is that YOU are the one who is "failing to report all the information" by misrepresenting the charred cockpit voice recorder as the flight data recorder, and implying that the FDR's "tape" is unusable, whereas the FDR doesn't use tape, it's a solid state device.
Yeah, it's a pretty BIG news item, strange how it never made the air...
Oh brother, this is according to the government story, wherein NIST verifies what the FBI claims........ Don't you understand that most here believe that the government story IS the conspiracy. More date from this source will never help you make your case. Much of what NIST offered for inclusion in the official "Commission Report" has already been proven to be complete bovine excrement. The government isn't an independence source, AGA. We are aware of the story they are dishing out, such as this convenient black box that didn't have any information.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Not even the government is saying the flight data recorder didn't have any information, it's AGAviator who is showing a picture of the cockpit voice recorder, conveniently leaving out the text which describes what the image is, and posting some text which makes one THINK what they are seeing is the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER.
Anything coming from NIST is suspect as they have continually denied access to information and spread bovine excrement. Director of NIST: Disclosure of WTC7 data "might jeopardize public safety" cryptome.org/nist070709.pdf FINDING REGARDING PUBLIC SAFETY INFORMATION Pursuant to Section 7(d) of the National Construction Safety Team Act, I hereby find that the disclosure of the information described below, received by the National Institute of Standards and Technology ("NIST"), in connection with its investigation of the technical causes of the collapse of the World Trade Center Towers and World Trade Center Building 7 on September 11,2001, might jeopardize public safety. Therefore, NIST shall not release the following information: 1. All input and results files of the ANSYS 16-story collapse initiation model with detailed connection models that were used to analyze the structural response to thermal loads, break element source code, ANSYS script files for the break elements, custom executable ANSYS file, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities. 2. All input files with connection material properties and all results files of the LS-DYNA 47-story global collapse model that were used to simulate sequential structural failures leading to collapse, and all Excel spreadsheets and other supporting calculations used to develop floor connection failure modes and capacities. ~ Patrick Gallagher Director National Institute of Standards and Technology Dated: JUL 09 2009 Meanwhile, AGA likes to ask why the people can't get any information......ignoring the obvious.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Right, but the flight data recorder from Flight 77 is being handled by the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board). Not that they're any more truthful, but they are in fact the agency involved, not NIST. From what the researchers who have looked over the data have found, the flight data indicates the plane couldn't have hit the light poles since the aircraft would have been too high to do so, IF the data is actually from the real Flight 77 FDR. You should follow the link to the Pilots for 9/11 truth website, it contains some pretty interesting info.
Oh, sheesh, I can hardly keep up with all of the government agencies tasked with disinformation in regards to 911. It's such a shell game in a maze of acronyms. Thanks for the link. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
It must really suck to have that sinking feeling in your gut when you realize that you ARE one of the bad guys. Eh? Remember the oath? "...all enemies foreign and domestic." Your oath is first to the Constitution and this nation not whoever happens to be the current occupant of some office or has a bunch of stars and fruit salad.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Right, but the flight data recorder from Flight 77 is being handled by the NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board). Not that they're any more truthful, but they are in fact the agency involved, not NIST. From what the researchers who have looked over the data have found, the flight data indicates the plane couldn't have hit the light poles since the aircraft would have been too high to do so, IF the data is actually from the real Flight 77 FDR. You should follow the link to the Pilots for 9/11 truth website, it contains some pretty interesting info. Taken as valid that would seem to validate the "David Copperfield" scenario wherein the plane is flown over the building and then another object hits or demolition charges are set off - patterned to make it look like a hit. The key factor being, of course, the timing. The "hit"/"explosion" would have to occur perhaps a second ahead of the actual overflight thus creating the illusion the plane hit. Then of course they just ditch, or land it and then whack the witnesses (passengers).
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
That was a neat trick, wasn't it?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. It COULD be argued that the data files were downloaded onto a west coast facility (Pacific time vs Eastern time) over the Internet, but there should be some gap in time between the time it was found and the time the data was downloaded onto a PC, where the download time would be at least 10 or so hours AFTER the time it was found, one would think.
Almost anything CAN be argued as we have seen from the pro-government folks time and time again. Not that their arguments make any sense.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. That is extremely possible given there are two sets of witnesses, one group states the aircraft flew a path south of the Citgo station (which is the OFFICIAL approach path), and another which state that the aircraft flew a path NORTH of the Citgo station. Pentagon officers Sgt. Lagasse and Sgt. Brooks are both adament that they saw the aircraft fly NORTH of the Citgo station.
Of course you are paid to try and explain all the evidence away as something else. What's your back up career? Guard in a Snuff Camp? On these exchanges you've been slowly but inexorably exposing yourself as a pompous windbag, devoid of real research skills or ability to analyze complex information, devoid of ability to consider additional information that upends existing rigidly held beliefs, a self-righteous ideologue unwilling to focus on common factors, and a codependent with the whatever "evil government" is the cornerstone of all your k00ky, $hitbrain, long-debunked beliefs that 94% of the country rejects out of hand. What evidence, fuckwit? The false claim was made that the doors to the cabin did not open, based on amateur cherry-picking of government reports and pointedly excluding statements that don't support k00k blather. The doors were not reported opened on damaged recording equipment does not equal the doors not opening at all. Especially when there is zero evidence doors opening on 11 flights and 40 hours previous to 911. The doors did open and close. The information on their opening and closing, along with certain other information, could not be recovered from seriously damaged equipment. So what does that make you? A classic divisive "False Front Operator" focused on turmoil and strife instead of workable solutions. Just like 1917 commie double agents who accused everyone they couldn't control of being counter- revolutionary conspirators. Not that you'll ever become that important. Once again, fool. As brainless as certain elements in the USG are, even they won't pay good money to attempt to divert dissenters from hare-brained k00kologies that less than 94% of the population accepts anyway. I'm here because I have a little extra time on my hands, and I hate liars, k00k groupthink, and people who think they can shout me down with recycled lame accusations, and windy off-topic dissertations. You've been rebutted above with complete info about how the false info about Flight 77 cabin doors not being opened, comes from k00kigarchs' dishonest selective quoting of reports, and incompetent failure to completely do research. So now all you have left is your dickless insults and your crackpot "I'm important enough that 'they' need to pay someone to post to me.'" No, idiot. You're just a target for my debunking skills. On every exchange you've been rebutted with specific facts, and you then reply with stale recycled insults. You're pwned and terminal case loser. So what's left? Not willing to shut your pompous utterances, you go to hyperbole, mocking, gaybanter, scatology, and accusations of being paid by "them." No loser. You're not worth spending money on and your arm-waving "great conspiracy" replies to specific factual rebuttals speak for themselves. Anybody with an ounce of brains can see the entire WOT is a disaster that's headed toward spectacular failure. "They" got their war but can't manage it. But "they're" supposed to be so good at running operations they pulled off the mother of all conspiracies without a single defector, or single piece of forensic evidence, coming forth to spill the beans for 8 1/2 years running. Enjoy your fantasy world "Useful Idiot."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The REAL k00k blather is coming from you, in that you're trying to pass off the damaged cockpit voice recorder from Flight 77 as the flight data recorder.
And BTW AGitprop, it is not certain that the data is wrong, since the door open parameter IS supposed to be collected on that aircraft, and the aircraft computer won't allow the aircraft to takeoff unless the flight data recorder is working properly and the sensors are all functional.
Your original statement, Post #859 on other thread, was the cabin doors were not opened and closed during Flight 77. This is a false k00ksite claim. The facts are, no evidence is reported on crash-damaged equipment, of doors opening and closing for Flight 77, or of 40 hours and 11 flights previous to it. Which does not equal doors did not open or close at all. Instead of acknowledging that error you shift the discussion to quibbling over voice reporters vs. flight data recorders, even though both were damaged and found at the same time, and neither shows any information about cabin doors to make your case.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The relevant issue is successful and full recovery of post-crash data from seriously damaged equipment. Not a belief the airplane couldn't possibly have taken off, unless it could supply that complete information after a crash in the future.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your original statement, Post #859 on other thread, was the cabin doors were not opened and closed during Flight 77. You are a deceptive and dishonest individual. The article here states that researchers who are members of "Pilots for 9/11 Truth" have determined that the FDR data provided by the NTSB indicates that the cockpit door was NOT opened during the entire flight. That is NOT unusual, as the door normally remains closed during flight, except that it WOULD indicate that Flight 77 was NOT hijacked. Secondly, and you need to get this through your thick skull, the fact is that the flight data recorder ONLY records data while the engines are running. Once the plane lands and the engines are shutdown between flights, the flight data recorder STOPS recording, so the fact that ALL of the flights recorded on the FDR indicate the door was closed is NOT unusual AT ALL, in fact it is to be expected. This is a false k00ksite claim. You engage in posting images with deceptive text in an effort to "debunk" what is reported here. YOU are the k00kaburger here bud, not any of the pilots at the Pilots for 9/11 Truth website. The facts are, no evidence is reported on crash-damaged equipment, of doors opening and closing for Flight 77, or of 40 hours and 11 flights previous to it. Which does not equal doors did not open or close at all. The FDR uses a MEMORY CHIP, and it was NOT "crash-damaged", in fact the NTSB itself reports that the FDR was working properly. Instead of acknowledging that error you shift the discussion to quibbling over voice reporters vs. flight data recorders, even though both were damaged and found at the same time, and neither showed any information about cabin doors to make your case. Again, you attempt to muddy the water and claim the damaged cockpit voice recorder TAPE is actually the UNDAMAGED solid state FLIGHT DATA RECORDER MEMORY MODULE, where the voice recorder simply records conversations in the cockpit onto tape, the FDR records AIRCRAFT PARAMETERS onto a memory module, and is contained in a crash proof box. The BOX which CONTAINED the memory module had impact, smoke, and fire damage, but the MEMORY MODULE itself was intact and functional.
You originally made the claim, quoting a half-baked Six Percenter k00ksite, that data shows Flight 77 cabin doors weren't opened or closed at all during its flight. I rebutted that by showing flight reports citing unavailability of any information whatsoever about the cabin doors, which isn't the same as data that does exist and accurately shows the workings or non workings of cabin doors. All your subsequent statements are attempts to evade acknowleging that in fact you have no basis to make your claims of supporting evidence for doors not opening. You are of course free to cite your usual bogeyman of eebil gubmint conspiracies and personal asides as part of your SOP smokescreen.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You originally made the claim, quoting a half-baked Six Percenter k00ksite, that data shows Flight 77 cabin doors weren't opened or closed at all during its flight. I have no idea what you mean by 6-percenter kooksite, other than the sources YOU use to base your claims. The individuals who operate the Pilots for 9/11 Truth website are aviation experts and airline pilots with decades of experience flying commerical aircraft. YOU are the KOOK, not them. The NTSB data indicates that the COCKPIT DOOR was NOT OPENED during Flight 77's entire flight leading to the Pentagon on 9/11, that is true. I rebutted that by showing flight reports citing unavailability of any information whatsoever about the cabin doors, which isn't the same as data that does exist and accurately shows the workings or non workings of cabin doors. Cockpit door status IS collected on 757's, and IS a valid parameter in regards to the Boing technical documentation. The door is SUPPOSED to be CLOSED during flight, which the FDR indicates IS in fact the case. All your subsequent statements are attempts to evade acknowleging that in fact you have no basis to make your claims of supporting evidence for doors not opening. You are of course free to cite your usual bogeyman of eebil gubmint conspiracies and personal asides as part of your SOP smokescreen You are a shillster, that much is obvious. C'mon, posting pictures of a damaged COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER and trying pass it off as the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER? Are you some low level worker they found on a H1-B visa or something?
Yes. I'd like to see more info on their altimeter research.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
False enough to be an outright lie after you've been pointed to the supporting reports 3 different times. The NTSB report says there is "NO DATA AVAILABLE" for the cockpit doors or for 40 hours and 11 flights before the 911 flight 75. Again. Both black boxes were recovered the same place, same time, seriously damaged. Neither shows any evidence of cockpit activities. As in zero evidence. You can't use the data from either device to claim the NTSB says the doors didn't open. The NTSB says they don't have that data from either device, not that they have it, but it shows no activity. CVR, FDR, or a combination are equally unable to support your k00kclaims.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The NTSB report says there is "NO DATA AVAILABLE" for the cockpit doors or for 40 hours and 11 flights before the 911 flight 75. WRONG. The NTSB report states that the data has not been confirmed, which is not the same as "NO DATA AVAILABLE". The data set contains the FLT DECK DOOR parameter, and it is either 0 for closed or 1 for open. It was 0 for each 4- second interval that was recorded. So YOU ARE A LIAR.
The cockpit voice recorder WAS damaged and unusable. The BOX THAT CONTAINED the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER was damaged, but the MEMORY MODULE stored WITHIN the BOX was NOT damaged. The data within the MEMORY MODULE was PRESENTED by the NTSB as EVIDENCE of the aircraft's flight data and parameters.
You are a KOOK and a LIAR, and it's quite obvious that you're spewing whatever bullshit you can dream up.
The aircraft would not have taken off if the FDR wasn't recording that parameter correctly. The door is SUPPOSED to be closed during flight, and that IS what the data indicates, where the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter in the data set provided by the NTSB DOES indicate a CLOSED (0) state. In fact, it would be UNUSUAL for the status to indicate the door had been opened on ANY of the previous flights since the door is SUPPOSED to stay closed during flight, and the recorder ONLY records the door state (along with ANY other parameter) while the engines are running, not while the plane's engines are shut down which would be the case between flights.
Again, you are being deceptive here as you are trying to bend the truth and say that the FDR recorded data over the PREVIOUS 40 hours, where that is a LIE. The FDR recorded the previous 40 hours of FLIGHT TIME, not ACTUAL TIME. The cockpit door is SUPPOSED to remain closed during flight, and that is EXACTLY what the NTSB data set indicates.
The NTSB listed specific exclusions from the data and parameters. Two exclusions listed - there are others in addition - are any data whatsoever about either cabin door movement, or about cabin conversations. On reports that you youself cut, pasted, and posted. Without comprehending. Furthermore a Flight 11 stewardess did make a call after the hijackers entered the cabin and took over, giving names, seat numers, and descriptions of the attackers. The calls were recorded and transcripts are available. Yet another disbunking of the "cabin doors were never opened" lie. You're illiterate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The NTSB listed specific exclusions from the data and parameters. Did you truly think they would state that the parameter is confirmed, being that it would indicate the hijacking never took place? The plane wouldn't have taken off if the sensor wasn't working, that is a safety measure programmed into the aircraft flight computers, where if there's a fault with the flight data recorder or any of its sensors, the aircraft will not be able to takeoff. Two exclusions listed - there are others in addition - are any data whatsoever about either cabin door movement, or about cabin conversations. As far as your habit of mixing apples with oranges, the cockpit voice recorder tape being damaged has nothing to do with the digital information stored on the flight recorder's memory module. It's obvious you're tap dancing here, sorry, but I'm not that easily amused or distracted. Furthermore a Flight 11 stewardess did make a call after the hijackers entered the cabin and took over, giving names, seat numers, and descriptions of the attackers. The calls were recorded and transcripts are available. Yet another disbunking of the "cabin doors were never opened" lie. The flight data indicates the door was NOT opened, and not only is the cockpit door opened by a switch INSIDE the cockpit, and the pilot a burly Navy vet who flew fighter jets in the Navy who would NOT have been overcome by a scrawny arab with a box cutter, and the fact that cell phone calls were next to impossible from an aircraft at cruising altitude in 2001, the fact remains that the supposed "hijacker", Hani Hanjour, couldn't even fly a Cessna, never mind a large heavy multi-engine jet. Even the FBI has indicated that Ted Olzon's wife never spoke to her husband on her cellphone during the flight. It's obvious that YOU are perpetrating a lie, and are part of the 9/11 coverup. You are in fact a traitor to this nation.
Why did you present the image of the cockpit voice recorder with a blurb stating the recorder was damaged and unusable, where we are talking about the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER, which was NOT damaged and unusable? Why did you claim that the data shows that the door was not opened for 40 HOURS, where the truth is that the data indicates that the door was not opened for the previous 40 FLIGHT HOURS, ie. during flight, where the door opening BETWEEN FLIGHTS would NOT be recorded since the ENGINES WOULD BE SHUT DOWN and the flight data recorder would be TURNED OFF? Why do you keep referring to "cabin movement" not being recorded for 11 flights, where the FDR does NOT record "cabin movement", it simply records whether the cockpit door was opened or closed, amongst other flight and aircraft parameters?
Doesn't disbunk or debunk anything. In addition to all of the questions about whether or not said phone calls were even possible as alleged, there's also the question of why the alleged recorded calls suggest said planes were seemingly quieter as to engine-noise than any other commercial planes in the entire world.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
A lie. The NTSB flight data report says there is no information available for cabin doors on Flight 175 or 11 other flights going back 40 hours. Furthermore a stewardess made a phone call during the hijacking after the hijackers entered the cabin and took over, giving names, seat numbers, physical descriptions, and summaries of conditions and injuries to passengers and crew. Another lie. There are over 30 phone calls from Flight 75 logged and listed. There are also phone calls from Flights 11, 175, and 77 logged and listed. Some of the receivers of these calls presumed they were from cell phones when they actually were actually from on board satellite phones. Wow, what evidence of a conspiracy, calling a satellite phone a cell phone when you get incoming. Ted Olson's wife calling her husband is one such logged call. Her husband says she called collect, presumably from a satellite phone he first identified as a cell phone - which could still make calls although with less than 100% service. According to Debunk911myths.org, all but two calls from Flight 93 were made on air phones, not cell phones, and both calls lasted about a minute before being dropped.[119] Brenda Raney, Verizon Wireless spokesperson, said that Flight 93 was supported by several cell sites.[117] There were reportedly three phone calls from Flight 11, five from Flight 175, and three calls from Flight 77. Two calls from these flights were recorded, placed by flight attendants Madeleine Sweeney and Betty Ong on Flight 11. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9/11 COMMISSIONERS Co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton:... "The CIA and the White House obstructed our investigation". Co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said:... "The 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn't bother to tell the American people." Co-chairs of the Commission now admit that the Commission largely operated based upon political considerations. 9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton:... "I don't believe for a minute we got everything right, the Commission was set up to fail, the people should keep asking questions about 9/11, the 9/11 debate should continue." 9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey:... "There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version, we didn't have access." 9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer:... "We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting." 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: "It is a national scandal"; "This investigation is now compromised"; "One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up". 9/11 Commissioner John Lehman:... “We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way - conflicts of interest". Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission John Farmer who led the 9/11 staff's inquiry:... "I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described .... The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years.... This is not spin. This is not true."
You: A lie. The NTSB flight data report says there is no information available for cabin doors on Flight 75 or 11 other flights going back 40 hours. You are a pathological liar. The NTSB provided the complete data set on a CD to the researcher who requested it via a FOIA request. There is no indication that the data is invalid, the data field is present in the data, and the parameter indicates the expected value for normal flight conditions. Although they state in their own analysis that they cannot confirm the validity of that data field, there is no explanation provided. Well no fucking shit Sherlock, because if they DID confirm it as valid, then it would reveal that the hijacking never occured.
BTW genius, it is Flight 77 that we are talking about here, not Flight 75, which has nothing to do with 9/11. The American Airlines plane which is alleged to have impacted the Pentagon on 9/11 is Flight 77, and it is that plane's flight data recorder we are talking about. The flight data from Flight 77 provided by the NTSB contains a data field called "FLT DECK DOOR" which reflects the open/close state of the cockpit door, or "flight deck door". The field is a valid field for the 757 aircraft in question, and is collected every 4 seconds while the flight recorder is in operation. They DO NOT STATE that the "information is unavailable", they state they cannot confirm the validity of the data field, for obvious reasons I might add. Again, the 11 other flights would NORMALLY indicate a "closed" status, just like the data reflects for Flight 77, as the door is SUPPOSED to be kept closed during flight. The 40 hours is 40 hours FLIGHT TIME, and NOT the time spent on the ground between flights, so your allusion to "40 hours" is deceptive at best since it is NOT 40 hours real time, but 40 hours FLIGHT TIME.
There were NO in-flight phones (or satellite phones) on Flight 77.
OK.... since the terrorists didn't pirate the jet ... what happened to all the passengers and crew?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Are you making this shit up as you go? Again, there WAS no Flight 75. Post your source, since it's obvious you have NO clue as to what you're talking about.
You crack me up. The evidence is in plain view and you have to go through contortions, lies, and misrepresentations that the many times contradicted "Official Conspiracy Theory™" is somehow validated by your logical shenanigans. I think you make plain from your explosion and melt down that what you can't tolerate is anyone who can look at the totality of the evidence and draw the logical conclusion 911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB. As for the rest of your long winded nervous breakdown it is wholly unworthy of any further attention. Have a nice day.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Don't know, but that doesn't change the fact the data indicates that Flight 77 couldn't have been hijacked, since the cockpit door wasn't opened during flight. I could list an infinite number of possibilies as to what might have happened to the passengers and crew, but the only ones who REALLY know are the ones who pulled it off. One possibility is that the crew and passengers were poisoned to death with nerve gas by way of the ventillation system, and the plane was taken over by remote control.
Are you making this shit up as you go? Again, there WAS no Flight 75. Post your source, since it's obvious you have NO clue as to what you're talking about. B-b-b-b-b-but that's what the debunker website said. Either that or it's a misprint in its talking points list.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
So let us place a common denominator right here about who "pulled it off." You act as though they are still alive based upon the manner of your specific point. Who are they, wishing to murder so many?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
You: Another lie. At the Moussaoui trial, the fact that there was only 1 call to Ted Olson from his wife that lasted 0 seconds was presented. People who have the power to pull the strings at the highest levels of government, not just here in the US, but multi-nationaly.
Who was behind the Iraq war, a war that had no basis or foundation, a war that need not have been fought.
It's obvious our AGitprop friend is getting highly flustered about all this.
Of course, you are suggesting that there is absolutely no way terrorists from foreign countries, planned this event.... correct?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
No, I'm not saying that. Those responsible could very well be from foreign countries, but they are not planning these things from caves in Afghanistan, but rather mountain retreats in the Rockies, conventions in European hotels, and various boardrooms across the globe.
It's obvious our AGitprop friend is getting highly flustered about all this. It's not supposed to go like this - it's not the way it was in the training school.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
That has been a total flop; a failed mission from before one soldier landed in Iraq. These other 9/11 issues were successful, in that, the plans worked with a large number of casualties and deaths and property damage. If the same planning occurred about 9/11 as you believe occurred with Iraq.... I would have expected at least one WMD found and the US pumping oil today out of Iraq and piped into Europe.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
They must have lowered their standards after the various purges at sites across the net where people once could openly discuss matters such as this, such as FR and LP. That and/or they're just out of practice.
The purpose was to engage the US into an unwinnable "war", villainize the US to those who were once either allies or indifferent, all to create a HUGE outpouring of US taxpayer money into the pockets of those with the right connections. The more "terrorists" they create, the longer the "war on terror" can last. Iraq was also desired since it was geographically strategic for future plans against Iran, and as a base of US operations in future Middle Eastern conflicts. There was no real need for any "WMD" to have been found. Has Congress impeached or indicted anyone over it yet? It'll never happen. As far as Iraq's oil, can you tell me where it IS going these days?
They must have lowered their standards after the various purges at sites across the net where people once could openly discuss matters such as this, such as FR and LP. That and/or they're just out of practice. One thing I have noticed is that there is now a proliferation of anti-truth websites. They still have to lie, omit, and misrepresent to try and uphold the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" but they have gotten better at it. I have to admit I'm rusty - I have not really had many shills to pick on since I got the heave-ho at El Pee. Also a lot of my old links are no longer good.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
BP PLC Tuesday awarded $500 million in contracts to drill wells in Iraq's giant Rumaila oil field, the first step in a mammoth initiative by foreign oil companies to revive the country's energy industry. If successful, the effort at Rumaila and several other fields near Basra could be one of the largest expansions of crude-oil production ever achieved anywhere. Increased Iraq production could be the difference between a well-supplied global market with oil steadily trading below today's $82 a barrel and a tight oil market with triple-digit prices, struggling to meet rising Asian demand. "It could change the map of oil," says Paolo Scaroni, chief executive of Italy's Eni SpA, which is preparing to begin work on the giant Zubair field. Any surge in Iraqi oil production must still overcome tremendous obstacles, including fractious politics and security concerns. Iraq oil production was forecast to rebound quickly after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. But it took six years to get back to 2.5 million barrels a day, the level Iraq was producing in 2001. The new drilling contracts are the beginning of a long effort by a dozen of the world's largest oil companies to revive Iraq's decrepit oil infrastructure and turn it into a rival of Saudi Arabia for world's biggest crude exporter, industry officials say. Iraq sits atop the world's third-largest supply of oil, after Saudi Arabia and Iran. But two decades of war, sanctions and neglect have left it in disrepair. Oil fields are in desperate need of investment. New wells need to be drilled. Massive amounts of water need to be pumped underground to restore pressure and revitalize reservoirs. Iraqi officials say they plan to add 10 million barrels a day of oil production capacity by 2017. Most observers say that is too optimistic. However, they say that adding three to four million barrels is possible. Even that lower number would be a historic feat, lagging only Saudi Arabia's massive expansion in the 1970s. Iraq has an estimated 115 billion barrels of crude-oil reserves. At current prices, that is valued at $9.5 trillion. Numerous political and security concerns remain before this oil can be extracted. Ayad Allawi's Iraqiya bloc, which won the most seats in the recent parliamentary election, said it would like to review oil contracts signed with foreign companies. That raised concerns there could be further delays in starting work. However, as the nation's leading parties engage in negotiations to form a new coalition government, there has been no talk thus far of renegotiating the oil contracts. "The security situation will continue to be a challenge for some period of time," ExxonMobil Corp. Chairman and Chief Executive Rex Tillerson said earlier this month. "I think we're all hopeful that once the postelection forming of the new government moves forward and begins to reach its conclusion that some of that will subside." The bottom line is that the lure of working in Iraq-with its plentiful oil-is too great for most big oil companies to ignore. "It makes commercial sense for us to increase production as quickly as we can," said Toby Odone, a BP spokesman. BP and the South Oil Co. let contracts to drill 49 wells to Weatherford International Ltd.; a partnership between Schlumberger Ltd. and the state-run Iraqi Drilling Co.; and China's Daqing Oil Field Company Ltd., said Abdul Mahdy al-Ameedi, a senior official in the oil ministry. He said BP plans to increase production at Rumaila from 1.07 million barrels a day to 1.23 million barrels within 12 months. These contracts are the first of what is expected to be a wave of oil-field-service related work let by BP, Exxon, Royal Dutch Shell PLC, Eni, Lukoil OAO and China National Petroleum Corp. over the next few months. The companies have been awarded contracts to increase production at separate fields. Energy analysts at Sanford C. Bernstein recently wrote that developing seven major Iraq fields, including Rumaila and Zubair, would require $102 billion in investment. But they said they were "skeptical" all of the plans would be carried out. The development of so many enormous projects-most clustered within 50 miles of each other-will create an enormous demand for workers, engineers and drilling rigs. It will also require the construction of a giant infrastructure build out, including roads, ports, oil export facilities and water plants. Raising oil production so quickly in such a small area may prove too demanding. Recently, it took Saudi Arabia nearly five years to increase its crude oil production capacity by two million barrels a day-without overriding concerns about political stability or security, notes energy consultants IHS CERA. A new analysis by the consultants say Iraq's plan to increase production is "extraordinarily ambitious" and predicted an increase of just less than two million barrels of oil a day by 2015. "It will be incredibly complicated to pull this off," says Matt Simmons, a Houston investment banker. Nonetheless, even a few million barrels a day of crude oil production capacity could have an enormous impact. The growth of Iraqi oil production and exports will play a "decisive role in shaping global oil markets," says Fatih Birol, chief economist of the Paris-based International Energy Agency, a watchdog for industrialized nations. Without the boost in Iraqi production, Mr. Birol worries that global oil production over the next five years will have trouble pumping out enough barrels to match expected demand from China, India and the Middle East. Tight supplies amid growing Chinese demand sent oil prices soaring close to $150 a barrel in 2008. "we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
There are over 30 phone calls from Flight 75 logged and listed. There are also phone calls from Flights 11, 75, and 77 logged and listed...Again, there WAS no Flight 75. No, there was a Flight "175" that had the 30+ calls recorded. I said "75" twice, have now corrected it in red, but afterwards posted a link that refers correctly to Flight "175." So somehow saying "75" instead of "175" is supposed to be some huge piece of evidence. Right, loser.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and on the wrong course to even fly over them.
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack"
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#2. To: AGAviator (#0)
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack"
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#3. To: farmfriend, Eric Stratton, X-15, HOUNDDAWG, Dakmar (#0)
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack”
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#4. To: FormerLurker (#0)
Why would the government release data which contradicts its own version of events? It is possible they were just sloppy, or that they never anticipated that anyone would parse the data as carefully as Pilots for 9/11 Truth have. They may have also felt secure, that regardless of what damning revelations were contained in the FDR data, no mainstream media outlet would give them ink or air time, keeping the official story intact for the vast majority of Americans who receive their news from mainstream sources.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#5. To: FormerLurker (#0)
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#6. To: FormerLurker (#0)
#7. To: FormerLurker (#3)
#8. To: noone222 (#6)
All of that being said, isn't it a bit ridiculous for a commercial jet that was known to be hijacked for an hour and a half to be left alone to hit the Pentagon ?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#9. To: FormerLurker (#8)
Thing is, if the cockpit door remained closed the entire flight, then the aircraft wasn't hijacked.
#10. To: Itistoolate (#7)
#11. To: noone222 (#9)
#12. To: FormerLurker (#3)
#13. To: FormerLurker (#3)
#14. To: Eric Stratton (#12)
New to me.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#15. To: Eric Stratton (#13)
And speaking of "See I told you so" geniuses, how's Douche Lameblow's ratings these days? Have the sheople caught on, or are they still bleating dittoes?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#16. To: FormerLurker (#3)
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack”
#17. To: FormerLurker (#15)
#18. To: All (#0)
Did you know that the cockpit door was NOT opened during all of Flight 77's doomed flight?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#19. To: FormerLurker, all (#1)
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack"
#20. To: AGAviator (#18)
#21. To: AGAviator (#18)
#22. To: Original_Intent (#20)
AGitprop
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#23. To: Rotara (#22)
#24. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, wudidiz, abraxas, ALL (#18)
A photograph of the cockpit voice
recorder from American Airlines Flight 77, as
used in an exhibit at the Moussaoui trial. 
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#25. To: FormerLurker (#8)
Thing is, if the cockpit door remained closed the entire flight, then the aircraft wasn't hijacked.
#26. To: AGAviator (#18)
Once again a CT site fails to report all the information
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#27. To: christine (#25)
whoa. i have not seen this before.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#28. To: AGAviator (#18)
#29. To: abraxas (#28)
We are aware of the story they are dishing out, such as this convenient black box that didn't have any information.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#30. To: FormerLurker, AGAbloviator (#29)
#31. To: abraxas (#30)
Anything coming from NIST is suspect as they have continually denied access to information and spread bovine excrement.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#32. To: FormerLurker (#31)
(Edited)
#33. To: AGAviator, all (#18)
#34. To: FormerLurker, abraxas, farmfriend, christine, wudidiz, all (#31)
nything coming from NIST is suspect as they have continually denied access to information and spread bovine excrement.
#35. To: FormerLurker (#0)
While it was widely reported in the media that the FDR for AA77 was found at 4 am on September 14, 2001, the file containing the FDR data was dated over four hours earlier. In other words, we are asked to believe that the data from the FDR was downloaded prior to the FDR being found.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#36. To: James Deffenbach (#35)
(Edited)
That was a neat trick, wasn't it?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#37. To: FormerLurker (#36)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#38. To: Original_Intent (#34)
Taken as valid that would seem to validate the "David Copperfield" scenario wherein the plane is flown over the building and then another object hits or demolition charges are set off - patterned to make it look like a hit.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#39. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, x-15, christine (#21)
(Edited)
Isn't it just so awful that all these intelligent and well educated people refuse to believe the gubbermint and insist on forming conclusions based on the evidence.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#40. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, x-15, christine (#39)
The false claim was made that the doors to the cabin did not open, based on amateur cherry-picking of government reports and pointedly excluding statements that don't support k00k blather.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#41. To: AGAviator (#39)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#42. To: FormerLurker, turtle, buckeroo, X-15 (#40)
(Edited)
you're trying to pass off the damaged cockpit voice recorder from Flight 77 as the flight data recorder.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#43. To: FormerLurker (#41)
(Edited)
Aircraft computer won't allow the aircraft to takeoff unless the flight data recorder is working properly and the sensors are all functional.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#44. To: AGAviator, turtle, buckeroo, X-15, Original_Intent, christine, ALL (#42)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#45. To: FormerLurker (#44)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#46. To: AGAviator (#45)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#47. To: FormerLurker (#1)
Anybody ever hear of this before?
#48. To: FormerLurker (#46)
(Edited)
The NTSB data indicates that the COCKPIT DOOR was NOT OPENED during Flight 77's entire flight leading to the Pentagon on 9/11, that is true.
C'mon, posting pictures of a damaged COCKPIT VOICE RECORDER and trying pass it off as the FLIGHT DATA RECORDER?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#49. To: AGAviator (#48)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#50. To: AGAviator (#48)
Neither shows any evidence of cockpit activities. As in zero evidence.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#51. To: AGAviator (#48)
CVR, FDR, or a combination are equally unable to support your k00kclaims.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#52. To: AGAviator, ALL (#18)
The Flight Data Recorder failed to record certain parameters with certainty. Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking."
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#53. To: AGAviator, ALL (#18)
not only did not indicate any movement of Flight 75's cabin door on September 11, it also did not show any movement for 40 hours and 11 flights prior to Flight 75 on September 11.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#54. To: FormerLurker (#50)
The data within the MEMORY MODULE was PRESENTED by the NTSB as EVIDENCE of the aircraft's flight data and parameters.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#55. To: AGAviator (#54)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#56. To: AGAviator (#54)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#57. To: AGAviator (#54)
(Edited)
a Flight 11 stewardess did make a call after the hijackers entered the cabin and took over, giving names, seat numers, and descriptions of the attackers. The calls were recorded and transcripts are available. Yet another disbunking of the "cabin doors were never opened" lie.
#58. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#55)
(Edited)
The flight data indicates the door was NOT opened, and not only is the cockpit door opened
Even the FBI has indicated that Ted Olzon's wife never spoke to her husband on her cellphone during the flight.
According to the 9/11 Commission Report, 13 passengers from Flight 93 made a total of over 30 calls to both family and emergency personnel (twenty-two confirmed air phone calls, two confirmed cell phone and eight not specified in the report).
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#59. To: AGAviator (#58)
According to the 9/11 Commission Report
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#60. To: AGAviator (#58)
Me: The flight data indicates the door was NOT opened, and not only is the cockpit door opened
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#61. To: AGAviator (#58)
The NTSB flight data report says there is no information available for cabin doors on Flight 75 or 11 other flights going back 40 hours.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#62. To: AGAviator (#58)
Some of the receivers of these calls presumed they were from cell phones when they actually were actually from on board satellite phones. Wow, what evidence of a conspiracy, calling a satellite phone a cell phone when you get incoming.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#63. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#60)
To AGAviator: You are a pathological liar.
#64. To: AGAviator (#58)
There are over 30 phone calls from Flight 75 logged and listed. There are also phone calls from Flights 11, 75, and 77 logged and listed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#65. To: AGAviator (#39)
#66. To: buckeroo (#63)
OK.... since the terrorists didn't pirate the jet ... what happened to all the passengers and crew?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#67. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#64)
There are over 30 phone calls from Flight 75 logged and listed. There are also phone calls from Flights 11, 75, and 77 logged and listed.
#68. To: FormerLurker (#66)
I could list an infinite number of possibilies as to what might have happened to the passengers and crew, but the only ones who REALLY know are the ones who pulled it off.
#69. To: AGAviator (#58)
Me: Even the FBI has indicated that Ted Olzon's wife never spoke to her husband on her cellphone during the flight.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#70. To: buckeroo (#68)
So let us place a common denominator right here about who "pulled it off."
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#71. To: buckeroo (#68)
Who are they, wishing to murder so many?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#72. To: Original_Intent (#67)
B-b-b-b-b-but that's what the debunker website said. Either that or it's a misprint in its talking points list.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#73. To: FormerLurker (#70)
People who have the power to pull the strings at the highest levels of government, not just here in the US, but multi-nationaly.
#74. To: buckeroo (#73)
Of course, you are suggesting that there is absolutely no way terrorists from foreign countries, planned this event.... correct?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#75. To: FormerLurker (#72)
B-b-b-b-b-but that's what the debunker website said. Either that or it's a misprint in its talking points list.
#76. To: FormerLurker (#71)
Who was behind the Iraq war, a war that had no basis or foundation, a war that need not have been fought.
#77. To: Original_Intent (#75)
It's not supposed to go like this - it's not the way it was in the training school.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#78. To: buckeroo (#76)
(Edited)
If the same planning occurred about 9/11 as you believe occurred with Iraq.... I would have expected at least one WMD found and the US pumping oil today out of Iraq and piped into Europe.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#79. To: FormerLurker (#77)
It's not supposed to go like this - it's not the way it was in the training school.
#80. To: FormerLurker (#78)
As far as Iraq's oil, can you tell me where it IS going these days?
By Russell Gold
nenosplace.com March 31, 2010
#81. To: FormerLurker (#64)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#82. To: FormerLurker (#31)
From what the researchers who have looked over the data have found, the flight data indicates the plane couldn't have hit the light poles since the aircraft would have been too high to do so,
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#83. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#69)
During the FBI investigation and press release phase, the terms "aircraft onboard phone" and "cell phone" were frequently interchanged. Like someone who gets an incoming cell call is going to instantly know what precise phone type it's coming from. So there are the phone calls whether "onboard" or cell," and their recipients logged and documented. What conversations went on with those calls? How to continue executing the Mother of All Conspiracies without anybody finding out? Phone Calls from the 9/11 Airliners ...by Prof David Ray Griffin Having concluded that I had probably made an error, I wrote a retraction, entitled “Barbara Olson’s Alleged Call from AA 77: A Correction About Onboard Phones,” which was posted May 7, 2007. Having said that my earlier claim that AA 757s did not have onboard phones was “wrong, at least probably,” I concluded this essay by saying: “In this brief essay, I have tried to exemplify what I have always said people should do when they find that they have made errors, especially about issues of great importance: Correct them quickly, forthrightly, and publicly," At the Moussaoui trial, the fact that there was only 1 call to Ted Olson from his wife that lasted 0 seconds was presented
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#84. To: AGAviator (#83)
From Could Barbara Olson Have Made Those Calls? Futhermore... In the course of doing research for this article, we learned, to our amazement, that even if, contrary to our evidence, Flight 77 did have functioning onboard phones, the US government has now said, implicitly, that Ted Olson’s claim about receiving two calls from his wife that morning is untrue. As we mentioned earlier, the FBI report on phone calls from AA planes on 9/11 does not cite records from the DOJ showing that any calls from AA 77 were received that morning. Instead, the FBI report refers merely to four “connected calls to unknown numbers.” The 9/11 Commission, putting the best possible spin on this report, commented: “The records available for the phone calls from American 77 do not allow for a determination of which of [these four calls] represent the two between Barbara and Ted Olson, although the FBI and DOJ believe that all four represent communications between Barbara Olson and her husband’s office.”27 That is, it must be said, a very strange conclusion: If Ted Olson reported receiving only two calls, why would the Commission conclude that the DOJ had received four connected calls from his wife? That conclusion is, in any case, starkly contradicted by evidence about phone calls from Flight 77 presented by the US government at the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui in 2006.28 Far from attributing all four of the “connected calls to unknown numbers” to Barbara Olson, as the 9/11 Commission suggested, the government’s evidence here attributes none of them to her, saying instead that each of them was from an “unknown caller.” The only call attributed to Barbara Olson, moreover, is an “unconnected call” to the Department of Justice, which was said to have been attempted at “9:18:58” and to have lasted “0 seconds.” According to the US government in 2006, in other words, Barbara Olson attempted a call to the DOJ, but it did not go through.29 The government itself has presented evidence in a court of law, therefore, that implies that unless its former solicitor general was the victim of two faked phone calls, he was lying. It may seem beyond belief that the US government would have failed to support Ted Olson’s claim. We ourselves, as we indicated, were amazed at this development. However, it would not be the first time that the FBI---surely the agency that prepared this report about phone calls from the flights30---had failed to support the official story about 9/11. We refer to the fact that when Rex Tomb, the FBI’s chief of investigative publicity, was asked why the bureau’s website on “Usama bin Laden” does not list 9/11 as one of the terrorist acts for which he is wanted, he replied: “[T]he FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”31 Having said that my earlier claim that AA 757s did not have onboard phones was “wrong, at least probably
The 757 Aircraft Maintenance Manual: Besides learning about and confirming this letter from Kinder, we also obtained another piece of evidence supporting the conclusion that passengers on AA 77 could not have used onboard phones. One of RB’s colleagues sent him a page from the Boeing 757 Aircraft Maintenance Manual (757 AMM) dated January 28, 2001. This page states that the passenger phone system for the AA 757 fleet had (by that date) been deactivated.24 According to the 757 AMM, in other words, the onboard phones had been deactivated at least seven and a half months prior to 9/11.
United States v. Ted Olson
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#85. To: AGAviator (#81)
We're not discussing Flight 175 nor some imaginary Flight 75, we're discussing Flight 77.
So somehow saying "75" instead of "175" is supposed to be some huge piece of evidence.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#86. To: buckeroo (#80)
There you go, you found the answer to your question.
BP PLC Tuesday awarded $500 million in contracts to drill wells in Iraq's giant Rumaila oil field, the first step in a mammoth initiative by foreign oil companies to revive the country's energy industry.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#87. To: FormerLurker (#86)
Notice that the oil firm granted by the USA was not a US based oil firm.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#88. To: buckeroo (#87)
Who has de facto jurisdiction over the Gulf of Mexico at the moment...
Notice that the oil firm granted by the USA was not a US based oil firm.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#89. To: FormerLurker (#0)
Nice find.
#90. To: A K A Stone (#89)
Thanks.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#91. To: FormerLurker (#88)
BP .... Then again, a hostile takeover bid is in the works by Exxon-Mobil.
Who has de facto jurisdiction over the Gulf of Mexico at the moment...
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#92. To: FormerLurker (#85)
And more specifically calls made from and logged from Flight 77, stating the plane had been taken over by hijackers and other people killed and injured. Contrary to the false claim that hijackers couldn't possibly have taken 77, over because the cabin door black box recorders show nothing.
We're not discussing Flight 175 nor some imaginary Flight 75, we're discussing Flight 77.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#93. To: AGAviator (#92)
The DOJ submitted at the Moussaoui trial that Barbara Olson called her husband once during the flight, and that it lasted ZERO seconds, ie. it didn't go through.
And more specifically calls made from and logged from Flight 77, stating the plane had been taken over by hijackers and other people killed and injured.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#94. To: buckeroo (#91)
Then again, a hostile takeover bid is in the works by Exxon-Mobil. Now you just have to look into who controls and profits from the above corporations. While you're at it, look at the Trans Afghan pipeline and Unocal's natural gas investment.
BP ....
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#95. To: FormerLurker (#62)
Wrong. On the older 757 models that already had them, there were. They stopped introducing them on newer models. Phone Calls from the 9/11 Airliners ...by Prof David Ray Griffin Having concluded that I had probably made an error, I wrote a retraction, entitled “Barbara Olson’s Alleged Call from AA 77: A Correction About Onboard Phones,” which was posted May 7, 2007. Having said that my earlier claim that AA 757s did not have onboard phones was “wrong, at least probably,” I concluded this essay by saying: “In this brief essay, I have tried to exemplify what I have always said people should do when they find that they have made errors, especially about issues of great importance: Correct them quickly, forthrightly, and publicly," There were NO in-flight phones (or satellite phones) on Flight 77.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#96. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, AGAviator (#63)
that is some thing you'll have to work out with ag the head of your liar movement.
OK.... since the terrorists didn't pirate the jet ... what happened to all the passengers and crew?
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#97. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, abraxas, HAPPY2BME-4UM, wudidiz, Twenty Twelve, Horse, Lod, christine (#1)
I serviced automatic doors for years including bank and silver vaults and The Federal Reserve and IRS buildings, and the door status (and door interlocks or "man traps") are monitored and controlled by reed switches and magnets. The magnet is installed either on the face or in the nose of the door, and the reed switch is installed in the frame. When the door opens the magnet is moved away from the switch which then changes states and signals that the door is open. Now, the govt may claim that the door status switch wasn't working at the time of the flight, but this would be easily disproven if the FDR was working and recorded the pilots or crew entering the cockpit prior to liftoff. Because "the FDR must be working or the plane cannot take off" we can assume that the govt's only other excuse is, "the data was corrupted by the crash". Hey, according to the official fairie tale high rise construction is based on many false engineering principles, even though no major changes have been adopted since 9/11. So, they may claim that FDRs sometimes glitch even though no changes will be made to them, either.
Anybody ever hear of this before?
#98. To: AGAviator (#95)
There was ONE call from Barbara Olson, and it lasted 0 seconds, meaning that it was disconnected immediately. Ted Olson changed his story several times, from cell phone to airphone and then back to cell phone, depending on what the latest reports were on what was possible and what wasn't.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#99. To: HOUNDDAWG (#97)
Thing is, they shut down the flight data recorder when they shut down the engines between flights, so the FDR normally wouldn't record the door opening.
Now, the govt may claim that the door status switch wasn't working at the time of the flight, but this would be easily disproven if the FDR was working and recorded the pilots or crew entering the cockpit prior to liftoff.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#100. To: FormerLurker (#99)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#101. To: FormerLurker (#99)
Nearly every flight I've ever taken I've seen flight attendants enter the cockpit. Also, when the crew needs to use the WC they have to open the door, right? So, if there is evidence of the door being opened prior to takeoff (thereby showing that the switch was working) but not opened in flight it puts the "explainers" in a precarious position, wouldn't you say?
Thing is, they shut down the flight data recorder when they shut down the engines between flights, so the FDR normally wouldn't record the door opening.
#102. To: FormerLurker (#77)
i gotta say- your tolerance & relentlessness with these people are very impressive. yeesh!
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#103. To: Original_Intent (#79)
i'm not sure that all the detail is necessary.. to the average person, one could comment 'buildings don't explode like that from airplanes' & get instant agreement. sort of like the vomit colored tic tac toe like grids in the sky.... yeah sure they're normal?? lol. all of it's nonsense; as for the few who still buy it? pity them!!
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#104. To: HOUNDDAWG (#101)
Nearly every flight I've ever taken I've seen flight attendants enter the cockpit. Also, when the crew needs to use the WC they have to open the door, right? Not according to a large group of pilots, who state that it's common for pilots to use the bathroom prior to getting into the cockpit, bring their own lunches with them, and keep the door closed during flight. Also, it may depend on the type of aircraft, where it might be more common on older style planes for the flight attendent to enter the cockpit, but on larger and more modern planes such as the 757, the cockpit is more self contained. From Link Many pilots dont like to leave the flight deck. Its called "The Walk Of Shame" for a reason...lol Also keep in mind, some of the previous flight locations if i recall were LA- ORD-MIA-IAD, These are relatively short legs. 2-3 hours. Hit the bathroom before boarding, bring your lunch (which most pilots do to save some cash and eat more healthy than airline food), and you never need to leave your seat. There is also plenty of room to stretch on a 757 Flight Deck. So, if there is evidence of the door being opened prior to takeoff (thereby showing that the switch was working) but not opened in flight it puts the "explainers" in a precarious position, wouldn't you say? The FDR only starts recording once the engines are running, and there is usually no reason to open the door prior to takeoff after the pilots are in their seats and the engines are running prior to takeoff. The case here is that the FDR shows the door being closed for the entire flight, and for the 11 prior flights, although that isn't that unusual, in fact, it's pretty common. What makes it unusual here is that if the flight deck door remained closed for the entire flight, then obviously the plane was not hijacked.
Also, it is not unusual to keep the cockpit door closed during flight. I have gone on many 4-5 hour flights never leaving the cockpit. I've even done many trips single and twin engine prop from NY to Florida, Memphis... etc, 8-10 hours of flying, with one pee break at midway point when stopping for gas. I know many pilots who go hours without leaving their seat.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#105. To: Artisan (#102)
I don't do it for their benefit, I do it for the benefit of those who are here to read the info and form their own opinion... I'm tempted at times to really say what's on my mind, but it would just play into the hands of those who are trying to discredit the info.
i gotta say- your tolerance & relentlessness with these people are very impressive. yeesh!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#106. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#84) (Edited)
All this arm-waving about cell phones, is to try to obfuscate the voluminous evidence that Flight 11 was hijacked, both because the cabin security was breached and calls were logged and recorded, regardless of what amateurs selectively pick from research reports, and also because those calls describe the people doing the hijackings. So you're left fighting a rear guard action while getting pushed back, your resistance consisting of deny, deny, deny without bringing anything new of your own to the discussion. In other words, per k00kology, we now have 5 separate conspiracies for just 1 flight out of 4 on Sept 11 2001. And the other 3 flights have at least 5 more of their own conspiracies, making a total of 4 x 5 = 20 conspiracies that must be maintained at all costs. And yet the same people who produce and manage 20+ stageshow presentations perfectly for 8 years, can't even get enough regular session funds to pay for the war they wanted and which they've made the longest and costliest in American history. Riiight.
“The records available for the phone calls from American 77 do not allow for a determination of which of [these four calls] represent the two between Barbara and Ted Olson, although the FBI and DOJ believe that all four represent communications between Barbara Olson and her husband’s office."
(1) The conspiracy to send something other than Fight 77 to hit the Pentagon,
And these 5 conspiracies for Flight 11, and the 20+ for all anti war hijacking issues and building destructions, must be maintained at all costs with no dissenting witnesses even among people classified as anti government.
(2) The conspiracy to kill the people on Flight 77 some other way, then mis-identify their DNA remains,
(3) The conspiracy to scatter shredded and burnt 757 American parts over the Pentagon grounds and crash site, directly under the cameras of worldwide coverage without getting detected,
(4) The conspiracy to hide information showing the cabin and voice recorder data of Flight 77 is not available, and
(5) The conspiracy to generate ficticious onboard and cell phone logs and entries showing staff and passenger conversations during the hijackings.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#107. To: AGAviator (#106)
PROVE that cabin security was breached. It's not impossible to fake phone calls, hell, I can set my caller ID to display any number I want. An intelligence agency with tons of money could utilize voice synthesis technology to make anyone's voice sound like somebody else's. As far as Olson, it's clear as day that either somebody other than his wife called him, or he's lying.
All this arm-waving about cell phones, is to try to obfuscate the voluminous evidence that Flight 11 was hijacked, both because the cabin security was breached and calls were logged and recorded, regardless of what amateurs selectively pick from research reports, and also because those calls describe the people doing the hijackings.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#108. To: FormerLurker (#107)
Just how many conspiracies are you Six Percenters going to claim are being managed with zero defections, even though the war the conspiracies are supposed to be done for, is lurching towards stagnation, failure, and possibly even world wide defeat.
PROVE that cabin security was breached....An intelligence agency with tons of money could utilize voice synthesis technology to make anyone's voice sound like somebody else's.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#109. To: AGAviator (#106)
(1) The conspiracy to send something other than Fight 77 to hit the Pentagon, If there was a need for a specific spot to be targetted, and for not THAT much damage to be done, yet enough to accomplish the desired results, then it would make sense to use a decoy for "witnesses" to see, while something else actually sped towards the target. As it is, it's close to physically impossible for a 757 to fly less than 60 feet off the ground at 400+ mph, yet for the official story to be true, we are to believe Flight 77 somehow flew level at 20 feet off the ground at 530+ mph, with a "pilot" at the wheel who couldn't even fly a small single engine Cessna. (2) The conspiracy to kill the people on Flight 77 some other way, then mis- identify their DNA remains, Whose to say the tests were actually performed, or where the remains that were actually examined came from. (3) The conspiracy to scatter shredded and burnt 757 American parts over the Pentagon grounds and crash site, directly under the cameras of worldwide coverage without getting detected, I'm still waiting for you to provide pictures of the wreckage being placed into trucks and carted away. There was minimal debris on the lawn, and the pieces that YOU showed sitting on the lawn look like they came from a model airplane. (4) The conspiracy to hide information showing the cabin and voice recorder data of Flight 77 is not available, and Huh? Nobody here is arguing about the cockpit voice recorder, it was damaged in the crash, at least that is what is claimed by the government. (5) The conspiracy to generate ficticious onboard and cell phone logs and entries showing staff and passenger conversations during the hijackings. Not difficult to do, as already stated.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#110. To: AGAviator (#108)
How much money has been spent on the Iraq and Afghan wars, a trillion or more? That's bought more than a few luxury items for those in the defense and "rebuilding" industry. What happened to Iraqi oil? Oh yeah, BP owns it now apparently. How'd Unocol do with that problem with getting permission to build a pipeline across Afghanistan? Oh yeah, they built it. How'd all those high tech "surveilance" companies do after the Patriot Act was enacted? How many rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights are still inviolable?
even though the war the conspiracies are supposed to be done for, is lurching towards stagnation, failure, and possibly even world wide defeat.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#111. To: AGAviator (#108)
Your video shows a bunch of guys with suits running around the Pentagon lawn holding up a few pieces of scrap, which even I could do better on faking a plane crash with some junk from the dump.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#112. To: FormerLurker (#109)
Already done. Read and view my links instead of coming up with Pavlovian denials of the information they contain. Start with the one a couple posts up, which shows lots of Pentagon aircraft part wreckage and clean up.
I'm still waiting for you to provide pictures of the wreckage being placed into trucks and carted away. There was minimal debris on the lawn, and the pieces that YOU showed sitting on the lawn look like they came from a model airplane.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#113. To: AGAviator (#108)
Where are all those surveillance videos that the FBI confiscated from traffic cameras that morning?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#114. To: FormerLurker (#111) (Edited)
Oh you could? Then show me even 10 frames of your video or anybody else's showing anybody planting any plane parts anywhere on the Pentagon at any time. pwned, liar. You lose.
Which even I could do better on faking a plane crash with some junk from the dump.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#115. To: AGAviator (#112)
Liar. You posted an image showing two guys with suits carrying a few pieces of what appeared to be tin foil. Did they make you a nice hat with it? Show the images of the trucks being loaded with the wreckage. Where is the wreckage being stored BTW?
Already done.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#116. To: AGAviator (#114)
pwned, liar. You lose. There is nothing on the lawn that couldn't easily be made from scrap or sheet metal. YOU lose.
Then show me even 10 frames of your video or anybody else's showing anybody planting any plane parts anywhere on the Pentagon at any time.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#117. To: FormerLurker (#3) (Edited)
Yes, it is old news. Also since no plane struck the Pentagon I am not sure what use the flight data recorder would have that would prove anything. I think it would be easy enough to come up with a fake FDR for that plane. They probably just forgot some details, like the cockpit door opening. Surely the real FDR from that flight will never be heard or seen since it is highly likely all passengers were killed by the CIA/Mossad for the good of Israel.
God is always good!
#118. To: FormerLurker (#115)
Where's your even 10 frame video showing evidence being planted at the Pentagon flockwit?
You posted an image showing two guys with suits carrying a few pieces of what appeared to be tin foil. Did they make you a nice hat with it?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#119. To: AGAviator (#114)
The fool who produced the video you posted in post 114 is an even bigger liar than you are. He is claiming that the outside panels on the WTC towers were actually steel columns, and that they are proof that the "steel columns were buckling from the heat of the fire". I bet you and he are good buddies...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#120. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#116)
Show me how it was, and show me even 10 frames of somebody planting it. Then explain why you ignore the jet engine parts, and scorched 757 strut and landing gear parts, in the same video.
There is nothing on the lawn that couldn't easily be made from scrap or sheet metal.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#121. To: noone222 (#6) (Edited)
But they had box cutters. They were all so scared of those box cutters that they forgot that they had more powerful weapons. I highly doubt there was any plane hijacked that day. And I am fairly certain no plane whatsoever struck the Pentagon.
All of that being said, isn't it a bit ridiculous for a commercial jet that was known to be hijacked for an hour and a half to be left alone to hit the Pentagon ?
God is always good!
#122. To: FormerLurker (#119)
What are they, then, bamboo?
an even bigger liar than you are. He is claiming that the outside panels on the WTC towers were actually steel columns, and that they are proof that the "steel columns were buckling from the heat of the fire".
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#123. To: AGAviator (#118)
Are you going to fill up this thread with SPAM from your fellow loons who decided they'd plaster their idiotic bullshit on YouTube? The discussion here was about the state of the "FLT DECK DOOR" data field on Flight 77's flight data recorder, not a parade of every KOOK version of the government conspiracy theory that not even the GOVERNMENT has tried to foist on the American People. If you have points to make or facts to talk about, do it, but stop SPAMMING this thread.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#124. To: AGAviator (#122) (Edited)
The external panels were NOT the exterior support columns. THESE are what the support columns looked like. What your pal shows are the external PANELS placed ON the columns for aesthetic purposes. 
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#125. To: AGAviator (#108)
6% huh? you better hope so.
God is always good!
#126. To: RickyJ (#121)
SOME sort of aircraft struck the Pentagon, but I highly doubt it was Flight 77.
I highly doubt there was any plane hijacked that day. And I am fairly certain no plane whatsoever struck the Pentagon.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#127. To: AGAviator (#120)
It's not certain that those parts are from a 757. Where's the wreckage stored, and where's the forensic analysis?
Then explain why you ignore the jet engine parts, and scorched 757 strut and landing gear parts, in the same video.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#128. To: AGAviator (#108)
huh? anyone here capable of translating this to English?
even though the war the conspiracies are supposed to be done for, is lurching towards stagnation, failure, and possibly even world wide defeat.
God is always good!
#129. To: AGAviator (#106)
As it is, it's close to physically impossible for a 757 to fly less than 60 feet off the ground at 400+ mph, yet for the official story to be true, we are to believe Flight 77 somehow flew level at 20 feet off the ground at 530+ mph, with a "pilot" at the wheel who couldn't even fly a small single engine Cessna. You'd think people would see that as a HUGE red flag in terms of the "official story" being even remotely possible, yet it's apparent that you don't have the slightest amount of concern over it. It's obvious you aren't here to discuss anything, your mission here is to disrupt and to discredit.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#130. To: FormerLurker (#126)
I don't think so. The anti-aircraft weapons all around it would have been activated, no plane could have struck it. Also, there is no evidence any plane struck it. A bomb is a much more likely, with scattered plane parts thrown around in the mix to make it at least plausible that a plane could have struck it. Of course a bomb going off at the Pentagon means it definitely was an inside job, so that will never be revealed officially.
SOME sort of aircraft struck the Pentagon, but I highly doubt it was Flight 77.
God is always good!
#131. To: RickyJ (#128)
(1) Just how many conspiracies are you Six Percenters going to claim are being managed with zero defections? Just a wee bit more complicated than mindlessly repeating "911 was an inside job, 911 was an inside job, 911 is an inside job" over and over.
(2) Even though the war the conspiracies are supposed to be done for?
(3) Is lurching towards stagnation, failure, and possibly even world wide defeat.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#132. To: RickyJ (#130)
They'd only fire those off if they really wanted to stop the attack from happening, which they apparently didn't.
The anti-aircraft weapons all around it would have been activated, no plane could have struck it
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#133. To: AGAviator (#131)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#134. To: FormerLurker (#123) (Edited)
Wrong. The discussion was whether Flight 77 was hijacked and crashed into the Pentagon. It was. All your subsequent off topic remarks about "prove the cabin doors were opened" after the NTSB explicitly says it has no such information, and "there were no cell phone calls made from the airplanes" are simply attempts to get rid of any evidence that undercuts your religious belief.
The discussion here was about the state of the "FLT DECK DOOR" data field on Flight 77's flight data recorder, not a parade
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#135. To: AGAviator, RickyJ, Original_Intent, Artisan, Eric Stratton, christine (#134)
Are you the same person who was here earlier today posting under the AGAviator account? At least THAT person wasn't a TOTAL and COMPLETE idiot, unlike you. I posted this thread, the article is about the flight data recorder data from Flight 77 you goddamn moron. Read the article you fool. FLIGHT 77 is the aircraft that is alleged to have hit the Pentagon, Flight 11 is the flight that is alleged to have hit the North World Trade Center tower. Are you drunk, or are you some kid using his daddy's computer?
The discussion was whether Flight 11 was hijacked and crashed into the Pentagon. It was.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#136. To: FormerLurker (#133)
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#137. To: AGAviator, ALL (#134)
Looks like this fool doesn't even know what plane was supposed to hit what target. READ THE HEADING OF THIS THREAD.
The discussion was whether Flight 11 was hijacked and crashed into the Pentagon. It was.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#138. To: FormerLurker (#135)
For the fourth time. Where's even 10 frames showing people planting evidence into the Pentagon, including both landing gear parts and fuselage shreds? Where's any evidence for any other CT, other than cherry picking and selectively quoting sources that are not your own? You said you can make a better video yourself than the ones I've linked to. So do it, put up or shut up.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#139. To: AGAviator (#136)
The more you spam this thread, the more you prove yourself to be here to disrupt this forum. I've seen incompetent disinfo agents in my day, but you take the prize as THE most incompetent imbecille I've ran into. Doesn't that make you feel special?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#140. To: AGAviator (#136)
Seriously, still trying to debunk the controlled demolition of the towers? That is akin to debunking the laws of physics, good luck with that.
God is always good!
#141. To: AGAviator (#138)
Are you talking to yourself here?
Where's any evidence for any other CT, other than cherry picking and selectively quoting sources that are not your own?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#142. To: AGAviator (#138)
For all I know, the images you posted of the guys with suits running around holding foil like objects WERE planting evidence. That or some of it was sprinkled by the C-130 seen by more than just a handful of witnessess that day soon after the attack. Again, where are the images of the wreckage being collected into trucks? Where is the wreckage being stored? Where is the forensic analysis of that wreckage? Where are the video tapes confiscated by the FBI?
Where's even 10 frames showing people planting evidence into the Pentagon, including both landing gear parts and fuselage shreds?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#143. To: AGAviator (#138)
Oh, and HOW could you FORGET that it was FLIGHT 77 which is alleged to have struck the Pentagon, not FLIGHT 11?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#144. To: AGAviator (#134)
Ah, I see that you edited and fixed your error. Too bad you won't admit it though, eh?
The discussion was whether Flight 77 was hijacked and crashed into the Pentagon. It was.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#145. To: FormerLurker (#139)
Your failure to rebut any of the information I post, other than deny, deny, deny, along with your choosing unending personal thrusts in your minimal content responses, shows your inability to deal with reality and your insane religious like belief. Of "The Mother of All Conspiracies," something you can't define and whose detailed workings you can't explain. You've had 8 years to make your cases. You remain a fringe group not quoted by anybody of any importance, zero elected officals, zero court cases getting past initial requests by defendants for dismissal. More people believe in Elvis sightings and UFO abductions than believe in "The 911 attacks were an inside job." Deal with it.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#146. To: AGAviator (#145)
You've posted NOTHING of substance, you've simply spammed this thread with NO idea of what was in half the videos you posted, and simply repeat the same crap like a broken record. I've given you facts and links, and have raised questions which you can not and/or will not answer. You sink to gutter league tactics when all else fails, bringing up Elvis and UFOS, seeing how much shit you can toss that you hope will stick. That you CAN'T realistically refute the premise of this article is obvious, and you need to pull out every trick in the book in order to tell your bosses that you did your work. It's apparent that you work for somebody. That somebody is obviously an enemy of the United States, and is complicit in the 9/11 attacks.
Your failure to rebut any of the information I post
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#147. To: FormerLurker (#144)
I can change it to something else, to give you something more to rant, fulminate, and make off topic remarks for hours on end upon based on denial, nit picking and other trivialities. My focus is on talking about all the 4 911 flights being hijacked and crashed by OBL trainees, not materialized from the ether by shapeshifting reptiles or BushOps cybroids. And talking about the many rebuttals available to counter claims that all anti- twoofer evidence is fabricated in unknown ways, by the same people who are losing control of the very conflict they're alleged to have wanted from all their conspiratorial activities.
Ah, I see that you edited and fixed your error.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#148. To: AGAviator, FOrmerLurker (#145)
So?
You've had 8 years to make your cases. You remain a fringe group not quoted by anybody of any importance, zero elected officals, zero court cases getting past initial requests by defendants for dismissal.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#149. To: FormerLurker, AGRAviator (#146)
Now that's the TWOOF ! It's apparent that you work for somebody. That somebody is obviously an enemy of the United States, and is complicit in the 9/11 attacks. Wanna guess this parasites ethnicity ???
You sink to gutter league tactics when all else fails, bringing up Elvis and UFOS, seeing how much shit you can toss that you hope will stick.
Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces
#150. To: FormerLurker (#146)
I've repeatedly demonstrated the USG says it has no information about cabin doors, and over 35 total onboard phone and cell phone calls have been logged from the 4 hijacked 911 airplanes on that date, discussing hijackers, seat numbers, and aircraft crew and passenger status. The fact you keep yelling and screaming about your non-existent "proof" the doors weren't opened, when the US GOV says it has no information about door activity, and the messages of calls indicate they were, demonstrates a fixation bordering on neuroticity.
That you CAN'T realistically refute the premise of this article is obvious
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#151. To: HOUNDDAWG, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, abraxas, HAPPY2BME-4UM, Twenty Twelve, Horse, Lod, christine (#97)
They'll say anything other than admit the doors weren't opened.
Hey, according to the official fairie tale high rise construction is based on many false engineering principles, even though no major changes have been adopted since 9/11. So, they may claim that FDRs sometimes glitch even though no changes will be made to them, either.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#152. To: HOUNDDAWG, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, abraxas, HAPPY2BME-4UM, Twenty Twelve, Horse, Lod, christine, AGAviator (#150)
(AGAviator) I've repeatedly demonstrated the USG says it has no information about cabin doors, and over 35 total onboard phone and cell phone calls have been logged from the 4 hijacked 911 airplanes on that date, discussing hijackers, seat numbers, and aircraft crew and passenger status. The fact you keep yelling and screaming about your non-existent "proof" the doors weren't opened, when the US GOV says it has no information about door activity, and the messages of calls indicate they were, demonstrates a fixation bordering on neuroticity. They'll say anything other than admit the doors weren't opened.
(FormerLurker) That you CAN'T realistically refute the premise of this article is obvious
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#153. To: AGAviator (#150) (Edited)
Alleged calls. I haven't seen any comment from you on why there's no engine- noise in the background of those supposed phone calls from planes. Would you care to comment on the strange stuff in this video recently released from the Pentagon that was aired on the "MSM" news:
over 35 total onboard phone and cell phone calls have been logged from the 4 hijacked 911 airplanes on that date, discussing hijackers, seat numbers, and aircraft crew and passenger status.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#154. To: AGAviator (#150)
Here's another new-release from the Pentagon:
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#155. To: GreyLmist (#153)
I may have to take a trip to DC and do some measuring one of these days. There is a way to calculate the approximate size of the alleged "plane" based on the distance from the camera and the focal length of the lens used on it, which appears to be about 4mm to me.
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#156. To: Critter (#155)
I'd be interested in your research. Please flag me to your calculations if you undertake that project.
There is a way to calculate the approximate size of the alleged "plane" based on the distance from the camera and the focal length of the lens used on it, which appears to be about 4mm to me.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#157. To: GreyLmist (#154)
A little cutting, scaling and pasting: 
Tail section visible in this frame. 
We should see a whole bunch more plane visible behind gate control.
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#158. To: Critter (#157)
Wow. That was fast. Intriguing.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#159. To: GreyLmist (#158)
Just tinkering. :)
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#160. To: GreyLmist (#158)
Tonight or tomorrow morning, I'll shrink my plane a bit more so tail section in video is visible around the tail on mine, and see what it looks like then. I'll also surf up some images of missiles...
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#161. To: GreyLmist (#153)
Judicial Watch video #1 shows the plane at 1:27, and then at the next frame #129 the crash has already taken place. Judicial Watch Video #2 shows the plane tail above at 0:26 above the tan pylon with the body being obscured by the pylon but trailing a white smoke spiral below and to the right of the tail and pylon.
Would you care to comment on the strange stuff in this video recently released from the Pentagon that was aired on the "MSM" news:
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#162. To: FormerLurker (#135)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#163. To: AGAviator (#145)
That is absolutely correct. There are also sightings of Babara Olson, Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler still walking around. I guess it is possible ...... then again, BIG_FOOT and the Loch Ness Monster (aka NESSIE) are still alive and kicking, too ...... ;) ;)
To: FormerLurker More people believe in Elvis sightings and UFO abductions than believe in "The 911 attacks were an inside job." Deal with it.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#164. To: FormerLurker (#104)
What makes it unusual here is that if the flight deck door remained closed for the entire flight, then obviously the plane was not hijacked. (O)bviously? Let's try this: "Since we know the plane was hijacked obviously the door monitoring equipment wasn't working properly or the data was corrupted in the crash." Now, prove that is untrue if you can. The govt will no doubt take the position that the data proves nothing, and they may be right. If the door was never opened and recorded, then how does one prove that the equipment was functioning in a plane that no longer exists? No need to get excited about this bit of non information. Professional liars will explain it away and dumbed down Americans who have no need to know the truth will accept the explanation, and we'll simply add it to the list of suspicious if not impossible facts and actions that govt asserts, and we cannot make stick in a country brimming with OJ jurors.
The case here is that the FDR shows the door being closed for the entire flight, and for the 11 prior flights, although that isn't that unusual, in fact, it's pretty common.
#165. To: buckeroo, turtle, GreyLMist (#163) (Edited)
That is absolutely correct. There are also sightings of Babara Olson, Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler still walking around Also, why can't "they," who are supposed to be such masters of state-of-the-art technologies, including controlled demolitions of structures over 3 times larger than the largest ones demolished in the history of the world, put together better quality videos and faked news reports. Why videos with only 1-2 frames with plane shots instead of a faster speed film with better locations and better zoom-in zoom outs? After all, "they're" supposed to be masters of special effects. Where are "their" reports from better angles and positions, more frames per second, and greater zoom-in zoom out characteristics? I've provided several links with high quality computer renderings that of course are denied as fakes by the Tw0ffers. All "they" would need to do to produce better fake reports instead of the so-called fakes they currently show is use that same obviously workable technology with highly photographed real imagery, instead of their comuter renderings based on the real imagery to begin with. Why the double work to get an inferior product? "They" obviously have unlimited resources and the best people in the fields. Why the oversight to produce videos that self-tutored CTmeisters can pick apart on thousands of websites across the world, instead of producing something that can be used as evidence in slam-bang court cases?
More people believe in Elvis sightings and UFO abductions than believe in "The 911 attacks were an inside job." Deal with it.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#166. To: AGAviator (#165)
I saw a few discussions about how GREAT the lawn looked after AMA Flight 77 "landed" on 9/11/2001 on this thread. There is a reason I don't comment..... I am laffing so hard, I can't type. I also have seen some discussion about "the EBIL government" performing this deed. I wonder how the US government could get anyone to fly a jet passenger aircraft into the ground with innocent passengers on-board .... could "they" have offered a maybe a beer and a hotdawg on a stick to the perpetrators if they survived?
All "they" would need to do to produce better fake reports instead of the so-called fakes they currently show is use that same obviously workable technology with highly photographed real imagery, instead of their comuter renderings based on the real imagery to begin with. Why the double work to get an inferior product?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#167. To: RickyJ, AGAviator, FormerLurker (#140)
Oh, he'd do that too if his boss told him to. Suddenly Sir Isaac Newton would become a lazy crank who sat under a tree, was hit in the head with an apple of all things, and then thought it mean't something. Another typical "Conspiracy Theorist". A k00k. And what's with this rate of change stuff? A bunch of gobblydegook that he even had to invent his own mystic symbols to describe. And the Earth is flat "everybody can see that", and rocks don't fall from the sky either.
Seriously, still trying to debunk the controlled demolition of the towers? That is akin to debunking the laws of physics, good luck with that.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#168. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#143)
Well, at least he remembered Flight 75. Right?
Oh, and HOW could you FORGET that it was FLIGHT 77 which is alleged to have struck the Pentagon, not FLIGHT 11?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#169. To: buckeroo (#166)
Bucky you are such a hoot. Ever see a piece of grass that's been driven over by heavy equipment? What your picture proves, and nothing else, is that heavy equipment tears up turf when they drive on it. Also they had unloaded a bunch of sand on the ground to protect it from too much damage which is all the brown SANDy stuff you see on the ground. The relevant photos are the ones taken early on BEFORE the heavy equipment tore up the pristine lawn.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#170. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#139)
I've seen incompetent disinfo agents in my day, but you take the prize as THE most incompetent imbecille I've ran into. Doesn't that make you feel special? And buckeroo cheers him (aggravator) on. What to make of that?
The more you spam this thread, the more you prove yourself to be here to disrupt this forum.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#171. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#169)
Take a peek at this hybrid motion picture ... discussing both REAL and simulated animation of FLT77 ... before talking about how GREAT the lawn looks. Here is the link, you can click on it..... Case Study
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#172. To: Original_Intent aka Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#167) (Edited)
Seriously, still trying to debunk the controlled demolition of the towers? That is akin to debunking the laws of physics, good luck with that. Oh, he'd do that too if his boss told him to. Suddenly Sir Isaac Newton would become a lazy crank. You flockwits are about as far as being from "Sir Isaac Newton" as you can get except for 1 factor - something did bounce off your noggins. I cannot think of a greater exercise in Western civ denying reality and wasting time this side of the Middle Age superstitions. On 911 we have
(1) A man who played an instrumental role in the guerilla fighting that eventually forced the communists to leave Afghanistan, saying he will do the same thing to the US as to the Russians, following through on his threats by destroying 2 US embassies and several US military facilities over the next decade. But somehow not playing any role in the 911 attacks, because he stayed in some bomb-resistant mountain bases after escaping several volleys of cruise missiles sent to his regular living places, and because briefly he denied being behind the attacks
What a pantload to think that hijacked planes had no consequenes and expect people other than Six Percenters to believe!
(2) Four aircraft reporting hijackings, with 3 of them observed crashing into buildings by hundreds to thousands of observers, not playing any roles in building collapses happening within a few hours, which collapses were instead done by alternative methods,
(3) Major damage to other buildings from the crash debis that happened in New York City,
(4) The release of these 3 crashes of gigajoules of energy which somehow had no effect on the buildings, which are alleged to have been brought down by alternative totally unconnected and difficult to fully explain in detail methods,
(5) Firemen saying they will be "pulling" away from one crash damaged building because "the structural stability is not there,"
(6) Saying that dozens of phone calls recorded and recollected by people during the hijackings didn't ever happen, and
(7) Saying the people who got the remains from forensic DNA analysis didn't actually receive the bodies or body parts of people dying according to the detailed autopsy reports.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#173. To: wudidiz, HOUNDDAWG, FormerLurker, abraxas, HAPPY2BME-4UM, Twenty Twelve, Horse, Lod, christine, AGAviator (#152)
(AGAviator) I've repeatedly demonstrated the USG says it has no information about cabin doors, and over 35 total onboard phone and cell phone calls have been logged from the 4 hijacked 911 airplanes on that date, discussing hijackers, seat numbers, and aircraft crew and passenger status. The fact you keep yelling and screaming about your non-existent "proof" the doors weren't opened, when the US GOV says it has no information about door activity, and the messages of calls indicate they were, demonstrates a fixation bordering on neuroticity. They'll say anything other than admit the doors weren't opened. Of course not. To admit the validity of the Flight Data Recorder data instantly invalidates the "Official Conspiracy Theory™". No shill would ever do that. Just as they will NEVER admit the "Official Fairy Tale" about the "Magic Invisble Muslims" who are never shown on any of the surveillance tapes (which are kept locked up in the bowels of the government along with whatever Air Traffic Control Tapes that weren't destroyed the day of 911, next to the videos of the "plane" approaching the Pentagram), the "Magic Mullah" with his "Magic Cellphone" in the "Magic Mountains" of Tora Bora, nor will they admit that the "Magic Jet Fuel" can't burn, reconstitute itself, burn again, and then do it again. The general tactic is to focus the debate upon minutiae which has either been planted or is invalid reasoning and beat it to death while asserting that the poor dead horse being flogged disproves every other point. Which of course it doesn't. The problem the shills have is that they cannot EVER admit that the "Official Fairy Tale" is in error in any detail no matter how small. We only have to be right once to shatter the "Official Conspiracy Theory™", and there are so many points as to have long ago shattered it. At this point, while still important, the physical evidence has been so heavily seeded with false trails and disinfo strawmen that the shills have plenty of room to operate. Where they cannot dispute is some of the more obvious stuff such as the fact that NORAD did not respond competently and there was NEVER an investigation of that, nor was anyone ever disciplined for incompetence. That alone is a hundred foot Red Flag to anyone who has ever worn a uniform. That just does not happen in the military UNLESS someone from above is quashing the investigation.
(FormerLurker) That you CAN'T realistically refute the premise of this article is obvious
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#174. To: AGAviator (#172)
And I'm crazy to doubt 2000 people got together in an auditorium and came up without dissent the most complex conspiracy in the history of the world, pulled it off perfectly, then all of them disppeared and have never said one word about it. Such loyalty from the worst traitors in the history of the world!
What a pantload to expect people other than dingbat Six Percenters to believe!
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
#175. To: RickyJ (#128)
Last I heard the Transgronificator was still in the shop.
huh? anyone here capable of translating this to English?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#176. To: FormerLurker (#123)
LOL! Maybe we should change the aggravator's name to SPAMANATOR.
If you have points to make or facts to talk about, do it, but stop SPAMMING this thread.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#177. To: Turtle (#174)
You WOULD be crazy if that is what you believed. There was no auditorium, and FAR less than "2000 people" involved. However, you would ALSO be crazy if you thought 19 arabs with box cutters, who couldn't even fly a single engine aircraft, commandeered 4 large heavy commercial airliners and not only navigated them but flew them with skill and precision into stationary targets on the ground, while the world's largest military was left wondering what to do about it and failing to do anything to stop them.
And I'm crazy to doubt 2000 people got together in an auditorium and came up without dissent the most complex conspiracy in the history of the world, pulled it off perfectly
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#178. To: Turtle, buckeroo (#174)
And who can't even manage the war they wanted so badly. Remember when Wolfowitz said the Iraq war would pay for itself? And the USA wasn't in a quagmire? And the Taliban had been defeated by the "Afghan government?" But yet these same guys can pull off the biggest conspiracy and mass murder of US citizens in world history, and not a peep of information gets out, and it's successfully covered up for over 8 years without a single person getting a conscience and spilling the beans. And no selective whacking or disappearings of internet critics like Steven Jones, Niels Harritt, David Ray Griffin, or Alex Jones who have made it their life mission to declare "911 was an inside job." Even though "they" weren't supposed to bat an eye killing another 3,000 Americans by skullduggery so advanced that to this day its workings cannot be fully explained in detail. Uh, right. LOLOL.
Such loyalty from the worst traitors in the history of the world!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#179. To: Turtle (#174)
But there is MORE ... much much MORE! Those same planners whose success about the disaster on 9/11 were not called to aid in either Afghanistan or Iraq .... or anything else. America has been a failure at both domestic AND international strategies ever since since.
And I'm crazy to doubt 2000 people got together in an auditorium and came up without dissent the most complex conspiracy in the history of the world, pulled it off perfectly, then all of them disppeared and have never said one word about it. Such loyalty from the worst traitors in the history of the world!
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#180. To: buckeroo (#166)
Your image shows a bulldozer on the lawn, for one. For two, the images of the Pentagon from the day of 9/11, taken WHILE the Pentagon was still burning, show a bright green lawn with very little if any debris. There were NO skid marks, and NO torn up grass. Are you THAT involved with supporting the official conspiracy that you have to resort to dishonesty here buck? Taking lessons from your AGitprop friend?
I saw a few discussions about how GREAT the lawn looked after AMA Flight 77 "landed" on 9/11/2001 on this thread. There is a reason I don't comment..... I am laffing so hard, I can't type.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#181. To: FormerLurker (#177)
Lets stick with FLT77 ... shall we? Hanjour didn't fly the plane with precision. His wild ride shows he was incompetent not even performing his nasty work with any precision.
However, you would ALSO be crazy if you thought 19 arabs with box cutters, who couldn't even fly a single engine aircraft, commandeered 4 large heavy commercial airliners and not only navigated them but flew them with skill and precision into stationary targets on the ground, while the world's largest military was left wondering what to do about it and failing to do anything to stop them.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#182. To: FormerLurker (#180)
Take a peek at the link I provided in post#171.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#183. To: AGAviator (#178)
The MIC has gotten everything it wanted in spades, and is still reaping OUTRAGEOUS profit from the deal. You're a fool if you believe otherwise.
And who can't even manage the war they wanted so badly.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#184. To: buckeroo (#182)
It's a simulation of the official story concerning the terminal approach of Flight 77. So what? The lawn was not even kissed by the engines in that simulation, nor was it in real life.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#185. To: FormerLurker (#184)
ROTFL ......
So what? The lawn was not even kissed by the engines in that simulation, nor was it in real life.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#186. To: buckeroo (#166)
There ARE people who think nothing of killing people, no matter HOW many. It could have been and most likely was highly compartmentalized, where very few actually had full operational awareness, and those who did might not have even been US citizens. Look at the attack on the USS Liberty for instance. Israeli pilots were ordered to fire upon a US ship, and they did. President Johnson aided their attack, and called off fighters which had been scrambled to defend her. Now where was the moral justification in that?
I also have seen some discussion about "the EBIL government" performing this deed. I wonder how the US government could get anyone to fly a jet passenger aircraft into the ground with innocent passengers on-board .... could "they" have offered a maybe a beer and a hotdawg on a stick to the perpetrators if they survived?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#187. To: buckeroo (#185)
Where are the skid marks buckie? Besides, even the government claims the plane flew right into the building without touching the ground, and the damage to the Pentagon indicates that's exactly what happened.
ROTFL ......
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#188. To: FormerLurker (#186)
You might be able to find a few folks to FIGHT for a country. But, you will never find a sane man/woman willing to DIE for a country. Now, that is a fact. But you might be able to find a few people to not just FIGHT but also DIE for a CAUSE (such as religious zealous issues) ......... where in the US do we have any of this sort of homebrew experience?
There ARE people who think nothing of killing people, no matter HOW many.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#189. To: buckeroo (#166) (Edited)
um, maybe that was before the firetrucks,and military vehicles arrived. I also have seen some discussion about "the EBIL government" performing this deed. I wonder how the US government could get anyone to fly a jet passenger aircraft into the ground with innocent passengers on-board .... could "they" have offered a maybe a beer and a hotdawg on a stick to the perpetrators if they survived? I'm picking up late on this thread. Surely someone has mentioned this [oh yes, I see noone222 has in #9]: "Electronically Hijacking the WTC Attack Aircraft On Sept. 10 2001, just 24 hours before the WTC attack, The Washington Times ran an article quoting intelligence sources who described Israel’s Mossad as “Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target US forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.” Moreover, they said, it was generally known in the intelligence community that the Mossad had penetrated every Muslim organization and would have little problem in finding any number of fanatics to carry out a suicide mission in the belief they were serving Allah. Ed. In the mid-seventies America faced a new and escalating crisis, with US commercial jets being hijacked for geopolitical reasons. Determined to gain the upper hand in this new form of aerial warfare, two American multinationals collaborated with the Defense Advanced Projects Agency (DARPA) on a project designed to facilitate the remote recovery of hijacked American aircraft. Brilliant both in concept and operation, “Home Run” (not its real code name) allowed specialist ground controllers to listen in to cockpit conversations on the target aircraft, then take absolute control of its computerized flight control system by remote means. From that point onwards, regardless of the wishes of the hijackers or flight deck crew, the hijacked aircraft could be recovered and landed automatically at an airport of choice, with no more difficulty than flying a radio-controlled model plane. The engineers had no idea that almost thirty years after its initial design, Home Run’s top secret computer codes would be broken, and the system used to facilitate direct ground control of the four aircraft used in the high-profile attacks on New York and Washington on 11th September 2001. ....." www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=206 I'm thinking this was used at the Pentagram, using a Sky Warrior/missile [? have to check my notes], with the Illusion of a much bigger plane perhaps promulgated by the use of holographic imagery [ edit: freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=120592 comment #12]. Some plane parts entered the Pentagon within the missile. I think the Pentagram was also detonated from within, to ensure the accounting offices were destroyed. Interesting quote from a Rabbi Pinchas Winston on the http://philologos.org site "Misc Study September 11" [sorry I can't provide the URL or the complete quote; too much stuff on my computer].... but it is in regard to the TALL TOWER and the FORTIFIED WALL, taken from Isaiah 2:15. All the indications from a Jewish site point to the belief that the Jews' Talmud considers Christians as "Edom", the enemy of the Israelites, whom God will purportedly destroy. America, being the [former?] stronghold of Christianity [or "Edom" as the Jew's believe], is also to be destroyed, in their fable, for the sake of the Jews. Behind that FORTIFIED WALL were the accountants who were trying to account for the $2.3 Trillion dollars stolen from the defense budget by Dov Zakheim and his dual-citizen Israeli cronies in cahoots with the banksters in "The City" of London. All but a couple of them [edit: the accountants] were holocausted in the attack.
I saw a few discussions about how GREAT the lawn looked after AMA Flight 77 "landed" on 9/11/2001 on this thread. There is a reason I don't comment..... I am laffing so hard, I can't type.
By Joe Vialls, October 2001
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#190. To: buckeroo (#185)
Did you even WATCH the video you linked. The simulation shows the aircraft flying straight and level directly into the Pentagon, WITHOUT hitting or scraping the ground. Thing is, it's physically impossible for a 757 to fly less than 60 feet off the ground at 400+ mph due to ground effect, and Flight 77 is reported to have impacted at 530 mph flying 20 feet off the ground with its engines 3 feet above the lawn. Pretty amazing for a pilot who couldn't fly or land a single engine Cessna.
ROTFL ......
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#191. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#183)
Show me the money trail. Is the USG part of the MIC? Are you aware the USG is facing bankruptcy and the heed to hyperinflate to pay all its burdens, and China has become a trillion dollar not billion dollar US debt holder? How's the lecture curuit and consulting fees for former USG politicos and DoD bigwigs these days? Any MIC industry stocks at all-time heights? Nope. How about the MIC companies cash flow and income? Are they seeing pressure for cutbacks from Congress because of the unexpected costs of prosecuting the WOT? Did "they" expect the WOT to cost a trillion dollars and go on for the next 10- 15 years in a godforsaken rockpile in Central Asia costing thousands of American lives, and getting dirty with heroin and poppy traffikers? Where do you get your "OUTRAGEOUS profit from the deal. You're a fool if you believe otherwise" talking point, the same talking point spinmeisters you accuse tutoring your critics? Facts, please. Not arm-waving.
The MIC has gotten everything it wanted in spades, and is still reaping OUTRAGEOUS profit from the deal. You're a fool if you believe otherwise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#192. To: buckeroo (#188)
Nobody perpetrating the attacks had to die, as aircraft are easily controlled electronically using remote control these days.
But, you will never find a sane man/woman willing to DIE for a country.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#193. To: FormerLurker (#187)
I never said it landed on the lawn. GOBACK and review the video I provided. Even it claims "unscathed lawn" .... which is the reason, I brought it up; the earlier picture distorts the point. What was all this discussion about a stupid ass lawn for with an untrained pilot not even kicking ass in the heart of the Pentagon, anyway? You guys are a laff a minute thinking some sort of US government "SECRET" operation on the Pentagon. Are you out of your collective minds?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#194. To: AGAviator (#191)
Is the USG part of the MIC? Who owns the Federal Reserve banks? Hint, it's not the US government. Who RUNS the US government? It's certainly not "We the People", it's whoever controls the money supply and who can exert influence at the highest levels of government.
Show me the money trail.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#195. To: FormerLurker (#192)
ROTFL
Nobody perpetrating the attacks had to die, as aircraft are easily controlled electronically using remote control these days.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#196. To: buckeroo (#193)
Was the attempted sinking of the USS Liberty an open and public operation?
You guys are a laff a minute thinking some sort of US government "SECRET" operation on the Pentagon. Are you out of your collective minds?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#197. To: buckeroo (#195)
Are you that stupid and ignorant that you don't know aircraft can be controlled remotely?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#198. To: FormerLurker (#196)
Why are you going off topic from FLT77 on your own thread?
Was the attempted sinking of the USS Liberty an open and public operation?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#199. To: AGAviator (#165)
Go ask the FBI why they confiscated all video tapes from the traffic cameras near the Pentagon which would show the actual attack as it took place. Go ask your government sources why they only released a crappy 2 frame shot of the Pentagon attack from a surveillance camera, which YOU yourself have linked to in the way of that "simulation" you presented. You are projecting upon others the very thing you are guilty of yourself.
Why videos with only 1-2 frames with plane shots instead of a faster speed film with better locations and better zoom-in zoom outs?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#200. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#172)
You flockwits are about as far as being from "Sir Isaac Newton" as you can get except for 1 factor - something did bounce off your noggins. I cannot think of a greater exercise in Western civ denying reality and wasting time this side of the Middle Age superstitions. On 911 we have (1) A man who played an instrumental role in the guerilla fighting that eventually forced the communists to leave Afghanistan, saying he will do the same thing to the US as to the Russians, following through on his threats by destroying 2 US embassies and several US military facilities over the next decade. But somehow not playing any role in the 911 attacks, because he stayed in some bomb-resistance mountain bases after escaping several volleys of cruise missiles sent to his regular living place and because briefly he denied being behind them (2) Four aircraft reporting hijackings, with 3 of them observed crashing into buildings by hundreds to thousands of observers, (3) Major damage to other buildings from the crashes that happened in New York City, (4) The release of these 3 crashes of gigajoules of energy which somehow had no effect on the buildings, which are alleged to have been brought down by alternative totally unconnected and difficult to fully explain in detail methods, (5) Firemen saying they will be "pulling" away from one crash damaged building because "the structural stability is not there," (6) Saying that dozens of phone calls recorded and recollected by people during the jijackings didn't ever happen, and (7) Saying the people who got the remains from forensic DNA analysis didn't actually receive the bodies or body parts of people dying according to the detailed autopsy reports. What a pantload to expect people other than dingbat Six Percenters to believe! Speaking of Pantloads how's the weather in Virginia today? 1. The fact that someone is hostile does not bequeath upon them magic powers to cause cover exercises to occur, the FBI to secure and sequester all of the 32 or so videotapes from sites around the Pentagon the afternoon of the attack (which 9 years later are still under lock and key), nor does it explain how that same CIA Contract Agent was able to shut down NORAD. Blowing Osama Ben Forgotten up into some mythical bogeyman does not vitiate obvious facts such as that the Air Traffic Controllers who watched this all unfold on their scopes are still under a gag order 9 years later. 2. None of the Aircraft reported a hijacking and to assert otherwise is simply a lie. None of the pilots or co-pilots (8 people on 4 aircraft) reported being hijacked or, very telling, sent the four digit hijack code which takes about 2 seconds to tap out. Once it is possible, twice is stretching it, but 4 out 4? I don't think so. These were highly trained ex-military pilots who were used to operating under deadly stress. That not 1 of them sent the code is preposterous UNLESS the avionics had been tampered with. That a madman in a cave in the vastness of far Tora Bora could do that on 4 aircraft would require a very sophisticated technical team and the logistics of which would make "Mission Impossible" look like a Cake Walk. 3. No one has maintained that the aircraft did not do damage to the buildings in New York. That is a Strawman Argument. However, there is no evidence which supports the stupid theory that 2 airplanes can make 3 buildings collapse in a manner identical to a controlled demolition. I know several implausible scenarios have been tried to force the evidence into that box, but for some strange reason it keeps squeezing out. Imagine that. 4. First a "Joule" is an extremely small amount of energy so even a gigajoule or two, while large, is only a fraction of the energy released in a nuclear explosion. For comparison a standard stick of dynamite releases 2.1 Megajoules of energy (7.5 MJ/Kg). It sounds bigger than it is because most people are not familiar with the tiny amount of energy represented by 1 Joule. And the size of the energy is not as important as how the energy is directed and into what. Here is where scale becomes important. A gigajoule of energy released into an ant hill is going to obliterate it out of existence, that same amount of energy released into the side of an open pit mine is going to create a lot of work for the men hauling the ore out, but a gigajoule released into an open structure with plenty of avenues for the compression wave to escape is not as significant. Its still not good, but not enough to knock down a structure as beefy as the the twin towers. In the case of the towers they were designed to withstand that level of impact and remain standing. However, that is almost beside the point as the series of unlikely events, and the strained reasoning of the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" do not account for the observed phenomena. If one takes the time to study a few catastrophic collapses of built structures then the one thing that stands out is that there is always one point where the failure of the structure begins i.e., a weak point that gives way first. So, in a normal failure the structure collapses in the direction of the point of failure. That is not what is observed at WTC 1,2, and 7. No, instead they collapse simultaneously in 360 degrees, SYMMETRICALLY, and subside into their own footprint at a rate of collapse approaching free fall - also not a typical phenomena associated with a normal catastrophic engineering failure. What is the closest simile to the observed phenomena is a controlled demolition wherein the underlying structure is removed by demolition charges thus allowing gravity to uniformly collapse the structure in a controlled linear collapse into its own footprint. 5. Structural instability does not equal a symmetrical, initiated at the same instant at all 4 corners, 360 degree collapse of a structure into its own footprint. Your comment is intentionally misleading so as to imply that reports of localized instability equals a collapse of the structure in the manner observed. 6. The only evidence of the alleged phone calls is insubstantial. The known operating charateristics of analog cellphones makes it very tenuous to assert that even one call was made. As you well know the famous "Barbara Olson" "calls" did not occur. You are simply blustering and trying to divert in a maze of confusion. 7. I have never argued that. I have not commented on it at all as a matter of fact. It is quite a "Pantload" to presume that people will stop observing, thinking, and drawing logical conclusions from the observed evidence just because you write a spittle flecked post and hold your breath until you turn blue. Childish temper tantrums are not evidence. Public Meltdowns and the use of shaky evidence and outright lies is not a valid argument. I would say you are so full of shit that your eyes are brown but that would be rude. Instead I'll just shake my head and laugh at your infantile antics.
Seriously, still trying to debunk the controlled demolition of the towers? That is akin to debunking the laws of physics, good luck with that. Oh, he'd do that too if his boss told him to. Suddenly Sir Isaac Newton would become a lazy crank.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#201. To: buckeroo (#198)
You are saying that it is impossible for the government to attack a US military asset, where they did exactly that in the case of the USS Liberty.
Why are you going off topic from FLT77 on your own thread?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#202. To: FormerLurker (#197)
NO....... but why would you think that the US government (or any government in the US) would consider such an act perpetrated against the American People ... or (in the case of the Pentagon) the US government itself?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#203. To: FormerLurker (#201)
Hogwash & hubris ... stay on topic! How did the US government (or direct and capable affiliates)perpetrate a death squad against its own People?
You are saying that it is impossible for the government to attack a US military asset, where they did exactly that in the case of the USS Liberty.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#204. To: buckeroo (#163)
Maybe Elvis helped plot the attacks while smoking hash and popping pills with bin Laden in their secret batcave over in Afghanistan, eh?
That is absolutely correct. There are also sightings of Babara Olson, Saddam Hussein and Adolph Hitler still walking around. I guess it is possible ...... then again, BIG_FOOT and the Loch Ness Monster (aka NESSIE) are still alive and kicking, too ...... ;) ;)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#205. To: buckeroo (#195)
Nice pic. But wait. If aircraft can be controlled remotely and easily, why can't marginal pilots learn how to punch a few buttons to help them on their routes? LOL.
Aircraft controlled remotely
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#206. To: buckeroo (#203)
Ever hear of Pearl Harbor? Look it up sometime. Ever hear of Operation Northwoods? Look that one up as well.
How did the US government (or direct and capable affiliates)perpetrate a death squad against its own People?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#207. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#205)
LOL. I guess you two geniuses never heard of drones, eh? Big difference between putting some idiot in front of the array of instruments and controls in the cockpit of a modern airliner, and having actual experienced pilots fly the controls remotely using computer assisted manuevers.
If aircraft can be controlled remotely and easily, why can't marginal pilots learn how to punch a few buttons to help them on their routes?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#208. To: AGAviator (#205)
Here is the best that I can figure out ... based on all the scenarios ..... the EBIL government only wanted marginal damage to the Pentagon. Did you know, that Donny Rumsfeld was in his office (the Pentagon) that morning ... and wanted him to shake a leg stirring up two wars ..... Donny didn't know nothing until the collision struck. This proves that the diabolical plot was successful!
If aircraft can be controlled remotely and easily, why can't marginal pilots learn how to punch a few buttons to help them on their routes?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#209. To: Original_Intent (#200)
You're the windbag who's alleging no connections between a guerilla leader who made violent threats against the US and carried them out over a decade, the hijackings of 3 aircraft by people identified as his followers, the plane crashes into buildings that subsequently experienced major or complete collapses within a few hours of their crashes, and unspecified details of alleged massive conspiracy plots, from an unspecified cabal of people who convincingly have shown themselves unable to to manage the very war they wanted. Those all are symptoms of a major reality block. Get your own head on straight before you infer anything wrong with people trying to help you get your bearings in the real world.
Public Meltdowns and the use of shaky evidence and outright lies
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#210. To: HOUNDDAWG (#164)
Let's try this: "Since we know the plane was hijacked obviously the door monitoring equipment wasn't working properly or the data was corrupted in the crash." I meant it in the way of if the door actually remained closed, not in the way of what the sensor showed necessarily. The fact is, if the door actually DID remain closed, then there WAS no hijacking since nobody, neither stewardess nor crazed "Muzzie", entered the cockpit during the flight. However, since the plane will not takeoff if the FDR or any of its sensors are malfunctioning, I'd lean on the side of the data field being valid.
(O)bviously?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#211. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, all (#206)
A classic that still applies is FAKE TERROR - THE ROAD TO WAR AND DICTATORSHIP By Michael Rivero It's the oldest trick in the book, dating back to Roman times; creating the enemies you need. In 70 BC, an ambitious minor politician and extremely wealthy man, Marcus Licinius Crassus, wanted to rule Rome. Just to give you an idea of what sort of man Crassus really was, he is credited with invention of the fire brigade. But in Crassus' version, his fire-fighting slaves would race to the scene of a burning building whereupon Crassus would offer to buy it on the spot for a tiny fraction of its worth. If the owner sold, Crassus' slaves would put out the fire. If the owner refused to sell, Crassus allowed the building to burn to the ground. By means of this device, Crassus eventually came to be the largest single private land holder in Rome, and used some of his wealth to help back Julius Caesar against Cicero. In 70 BC Rome was still a Republic, which placed very strict limits on what Rulers could do, and more importantly NOT do. But Crassus had no intentions of enduring such limits to his personal power, and contrived a plan. Crassus seized upon the slave revolt led by Spartacus in order to strike terror into the hearts of Rome, whose garrison Spartacus had already defeated in battle. But Spartacus had no intention of marching on Rome itself, a move he knew to be suicidal. Spartacus and his band wanted nothing to do with the Roman empire and had planned from the start merely to loot enough money from their former owners in the Italian countryside to hire a mercenary fleet in which to sail to freedom. Sailing away was the last thing Crassus wanted Spartacus to do. He needed a convenient enemy with which to terrorize Rome itself for his personal political gain. So Crassus bribed the mercenary fleet to sail without Spartacus, then positioned two Roman legions in such a way that Spartacus had no choice but to march on Rome. Terrified of the impending arrival of the much-feared army of gladiators, Rome declared Crassus Praetor. Crassus then crushed Spartacus' army and even though Pompey took the credit, Crassus was elected Consul of Rome the following year. With this maneuver, the Romans surrendered their Republican form of government. Soon would follow the first Triumvirate, consisting of Crassus, Pompeii, and Julius Caesar, followed by the reign of the god-like Emperors of Rome. The Romans were hoaxed into surrendering their Republic, and accepting the rule of Emperors. Julius Caesar's political opponent, Cicero, for all his literary accomplishments, played the same games in his campaign against Julius Caesar, claiming that Rome was falling victim to an internal "vast right wing" conspiracy in which any expressed desire for legislative limits on government was treated as suspicious behavior. Cicero, in order to demonstrate to the Romans just how unsafe Rome has become hired thugs to cause as much disturbance as possible, and campaigned on a promise to end the internal strife if elected and granted extraordinary powers. What Cicero only dreamed of, Adolph Hitler succeeded in doing. Elected Chancellor of Germany, Hitler, like Crassus, had no intention of living with the strict limits to his power imposed by German law. Unlike Cicero, Hitler's thugs were easy to recognize; they all wore the same brown shirts. But their actions were no different than those of their Roman predecessors. They staged beatings, set fires, caused as much trouble as they could, while Hitler made speeches promising that he could end the crime wave of subversives and terrorism if he was granted extraordinary powers. Then the Reichstag burned down; a staged terrorist attack. (Continued at Link.)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#212. To: AGAviator (#209)
You mean the one who worked for the CIA, and who denounced the attacks and denied involvement till after his reported death, where various actors claiming to be him stated otherwise?
You're the windbag who's alleging no connections between a guerilla leader who made violent threats against the US and carried them out over a decade
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#213. To: buckeroo (#208) (Edited)
Yes, "they" sent an airplane on a breathtaking 270/330 degree turn into the back of the building in front of its parking lot, in a recently renovated and reinforced section with less than full occupancy, to make it look good. Instead of hitting Rumsfeld's office on the north where it was originally flying by, but overshot from a lift-generating power dive. Because the bean counters were about to uncover missing funds, that's the ticket. So "they" got everybody else to come on board, but couldn't control the bean counters? Why are bean counters so special they needed to get hit instead of taking dirrections and falling into line? But even after 8 years and getting their people killed, even no bean counter has come forward? And no Twoofer has been disappeared or whacked? LOLOL! Too much!
Here is the best that I can figure out ... based on all the scenarios ..... the EBIL government only wanted marginal damage to the
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#214. To: Original_Intent (#211)
History repeats itself, as those who desire power and wealth study the actions of those before them and mimic them.
The Romans were hoaxed into surrendering their Republic, and accepting the rule of Emperors. Julius Caesar's political opponent, Cicero, for all his literary accomplishments, played the same games in his campaign against Julius Caesar, claiming that Rome was falling victim to an internal "vast right wing" conspiracy in which any expressed desire for legislative limits on government was treated as suspicious behavior. Cicero, in order to demonstrate to the Romans just how unsafe Rome has become hired thugs to cause as much disturbance as possible, and campaigned on a promise to end the internal strife if elected and granted extraordinary powers. What Cicero only dreamed of, Adolph Hitler succeeded in doing. Elected Chancellor of Germany, Hitler, like Crassus, had no intention of living with the strict limits to his power imposed by German law. Unlike Cicero, Hitler's thugs were easy to recognize; they all wore the same brown shirts. But their actions were no different than those of their Roman predecessors. They staged beatings, set fires, caused as much trouble as they could, while Hitler made speeches promising that he could end the crime wave of subversives and terrorism if he was granted extraordinary powers.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#215. To: AGAviator (#213)
Rumsfeld would have no desire to "hit" his own office, for one. The aircraft did not "power dive" into the Pentagon you raving nut, it descended into a turn, which took it AWAY from Rumsfeld's office, and then FLEW a mile at low level to reach the Pentagon.
Instead of hitting Rumsfeld's office on the north where it was originally bflying and overshot from a lift-generating power dive.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#216. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#189)
$6.9 Trillion Lien Against Israel for Pentagon Embezzlement Sunday, April 11, 2010 $6.9 Trillion Lien Against Israel for Pentagon Embezzlement FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: April 8, 2010 A.D. Seattle, Washington State The Supreme Law Firm has disclosed today a $6.9 TRILLION lien now in the making against Dr. Dov S. Zakheim and the State of Israel, in connection with the principal sum of at least $2.9 TRILLION evidently embezzled from the Pentagon by Zakheim and his accomplices in the run-up to the attacks on 9/11. In a briefly worded email message to the Office of the Attorney General ("AG") for the Commonwealth of Virginia, with territorial jurisdiction over the offices of Booz Allen Hamilton in McLean, Virginia, a Private Attorney Attorney ... Excerpt Private Attorney General releases Executive Summary for the U.S. Coast Guard: positive identification of the Pentagon murder weapons "....coupled with other, secondary evidence of which I am aware, some of it admittedly circumstantial, we have informed the U.S. Coast Guard of our conclusions that an unmanned, remotely controlled A-3 Skywarrior hit the Pentagon, immediately after an air-to-ground ("AGM") missile was launched from under the port wing, in order to soften an entrance hole for the A-3's main fuselage. The timing of the warhead's explosion was not quite "perfect" however, and the shock wave resulted in partially disintegrating the A-3 into pieces, some of which came to rest outside the Pentagon. I am a qualified Federal Witness, and I am competent to testify, under oath, as to the facts and conclusions summarized above." www.supremelaw.org/author...ell/executive.summary.htm Interesting that pic [missile?] was named "Phoenix". The reconstruction project afterwards was likewise called the "Poenix Project", and was finished on the next September 11, and the first cornerstone for the Pentagon was likewise set on September 11, about 50 years prior. The occult plan for America from the beginning was for the New World Order to appear out of our ashes. [Psalm 2]. See DEATH OF THE PHOENIX: FINAL ACT FOR THE USA Jan 1, 2006 ... in the middle ages employed the phoenix bird as a symbol of Christ because of its voluntary death, rebirth after death and its pure way of ... watch.pair.com/death-phoenix.html Christ's birthday, btw, is September 11, 3 BC. They call Him "Yeshu" : "may His name be forgotten, blotted out." bible.cc/isaiah/52-5.htm From my 4um post: freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=116841 [p.s. I only attempted to post the pic of the Skywarrior...if these other pics I'm seeing on my draft are attached, I don't know where they came from, but they are interesting.] From the Air Force holographic imagery site [since removed from the web; down the 'memory hole']: "...The holographic projector displays a three-dimensional visual image in a desired location, removed from the display generator. The projector can be used for psychological operations and strategic perception management. It is also useful for optical deception and cloaking, providing a momentary distraction when engaging an unsophisticated adversary....." So the holograph image "cloaked" the Skywarrior, I'm gathering. I have to commend them on all their creativity. Maybe Hollyweird WAS involved.
I'm thinking this was used at the Pentagram, using a Sky Warrior/missile [? have to check my notes],
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#217. To: AGAviator, all (#209) (Edited)
I must give you credit - you are both persistent and consistent in hanging onto your crazed fantabulations of the "Magic Muslim" who could, with a wave of his "Magic Cellphone®", stupify the entire North American Air Defense Command and cause 3 buildings to implode in controlled demolitions from 2 aircraft impacts which the buildings were designed to withstand. Of course this machiavellian jeenyus, who happened to be a CIA Contract Agent, was able to also, with a wave of his "Magic Cellphone®" turn incompetent pilots unable competently fly a single engine propellor driven Cessna 172 (with a top speed of 220 knots in a dive) into master pilots who can fly Jumbo Jets at 500 knots with the aerobatic skill of the Red Baron in his Fokker Tri-Plane. The number of preposterous assumptions your frantic and hyperbolic scenario requires is not even good believable fiction. But keep trying it's fun to watch you flail around and hold your breath. I have kind of a fascination with it - kind of like watching a Circus Clown Fire Engine Brigade.
You're the windbag who's alleging no connections between a guerilla leader who made violent threats against the US and carried them out over a decade, the hijackings of 3 aircraft by people identified as his followers, the plane crashes into buildings that subsequently experienced major or complete collapses within a few hours of their crashes, and unspecified details of alleged massive conspiracy plots, from an unspecified cabal of people who convincingly have shown themselves unable to to manage the very war they wanted.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#218. To: AGAviator (#209)
You mean the ones that are alive and well and have stated publically that they weren't involved, with the obvious proof being that they're still alive? There were 4 aircraft BTW.
the hijackings of 3 aircraft by people identified as his followers
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#219. To: FormerLurker (#215)
Going down quickly without using flaps or cutting back on the throttle is classified as a power dive, pinhead, especially when the turn is done over 400 mph, and the wings of the aircraft are seen oscillating as the pilot attempts to bring the craft flat and level close to the deck.
The aircraft did not "power dive" into the Pentagon you raving nut, it descended into a turn
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#220. To: FormerLurker (#218)
3 crashes.
There were 4 aircraft BTW.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#221. To: AGAviator (#213)
It is the greatest government plot against it's own people in all of mankind's history! Maybe they can cook up some new successes, now....... like fix SS, unemployment, guard the borders, bring down the debt, stop the wars ... and here is the REALLY BIG area of consideration: actually educate the People.
But even after 8 years and getting their people killed, even no bean counter has come forward? And no Twoofer has been disappeared or whacked?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#222. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#218)
'Boy seems a bit wound too tight. I think he needs to relax a bit, but the Sgt. in charge of his PsyOps Unit probably won't let him. Slave driver. Well, you know what they say about Sergeants - "they reproduce by fission - like all bacteria".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#223. To: AGAviator (#220)
Oh? So what happened to the 4th plane?
3 crashes.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#224. To: Original_Intent (#217)
ROTFL.... this is a classic "knee-slapper" post. Thanks so much ... I have tears in my eyes and my belly aches from laffing so hard.
Of course this machiavellian jeenyus, who happened to be a CIA Contract Agent, was able to also, with a wave of his "Magic Cellphone®" turn incompetent pilots unable competently fly a single engine propellor driven Cessna 172 (with a top speed of 220 knots in a dive) into master pilots who can fly Jumbo Jets at 500 knots with the aerobatic skill of the Red Baron in his Fokker Tri-Plane.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#225. To: AGAviator (#219)
It was classified as a precision turn with a high rate of descent (akin to a military aircraft), and who ever said anything about "oscillating wings"?
Going down quickly without using flaps or cutting back on the throttle is classified as a power dive, pinhead, especially when the turn is done over 400 mph, and the wings of the aircraft are seen oscillating as the pilot attempts to bring the craft flat and level close to the deck.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#226. To: Original_Intent, turtle, buckeroo (#217)
No one else is alleging a magic cellphone, that's a product of your own addled mentality, known as a "Straw Man." The nexus of your arguments and reality block. Others are alleging a skilled combat engineer and guerilla leader/trainer who produced lethal and effective insurgent fighters capable of going head to head with the Soviet Union's finest special forces, their spetsnaz, from combat positions blasted from mountain granite and capable of withstanding air and helicopter attacks. And who commands to this day complete loyalty from tens of thousands of people because of his willingness to sacrifice personal comfort and live an austere life on the front lines.
"Magic Cellphone®",
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#227. To: FormerLurker (#223)
3 crashes into buildings, I see I need to spell everything out.
3 crashes. Oh? So what happened to the 4th plane?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#228. To: Original_Intent (#222)
They probaly have some AI program analyze his comments and responses for "win/fail" scores, and he's not allowed to go to lunch until his score hits a certain level, or drops so low he's given a mandatory timeout.
I think he needs to relax a bit, but the Sgt. in charge of his PsyOps Unit probably won't let him. Slave driver.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#229. To: AGAviator (#226)
Glad you brought that up. On the morning of 9/11 are you or anyone aware of what happened in Washington DC for evacuation planning and execution for the bureaucrats?
Others are alleging a skilled combat engineer and guerilla leader/trainer who produced lethal and effective insurgent fighters capable of going head to head with the Soviet Union's finest special forces, their spetsnaz, from combat positions blasted from mountain granite and capable of withstanding air and helicopter attacks.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#230. To: FormerLurker (#228)
The people who believe the government's insane conspiracy theory MAY be subjects of an Artificial Stupidity program that succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its creator.
They probaly have some AI program analyze his comments and responses for "win/fail" scores, and he's not allowed to go to lunch until his score hits a certain level, or drops so low he's given a mandatory timeout.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#231. To: AGAviator (#226)
For one, even the DOD has recently stated that there are only several hundred "Al-Qaeda" in Afghanistan and Pakistan. For two, bin Laden was reported dead in Dec. 2001.
And who commands to this day complete loyalty from tens of thousands of people because of his willingness to sacrifice personal comfort and live an austere life on the front lines.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#232. To: James Deffenbach (#230)
LOL
The people who believe the government's insane conspiracy theory MAY be subjects of an Artificial Stupidity program that succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its creator.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#233. To: FormerLurker (#228)
They probaly have some AI program analyze his comments and responses for "win/fail" scores, and he's not allowed to go to lunch until his score hits a certain level, or drops so low he's given a mandatory timeout. Damn those metrics! People are not machines, and they gave him quite an assignment to bolster up a discredited "Conspiracy Theory" with more holes in it than the proverbial Swiss Cheese. They might as well have him argue that "the Cow really did jump over the Moon".
I think he needs to relax a bit, but the Sgt. in charge of his PsyOps Unit probably won't let him. Slave driver.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#234. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker (#230)
LOL! The people who believe the government's insane conspiracy theory MAY be subjects of an Artificial Stupidity program that succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its creator.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#235. To: James Deffenbach (#230)
ROTFL .... even the president's wife was in the WH on the morning of 9/11; GWBush couldn't find her there was so much pandemonium. Former first lady details problems with communication system TODAY books In her memoir, "Spoken from the Heart," former first lady Laura Bush shares a detailed account of being in the White House during the terrorist attacks. An excerpt. Goodness in the land of the living Tuesday morning, September 11, was sunny and warm, the sky a brilliant cerulean blue. The day before, I had hosted a lunch for Janette Howard, wife of the Australian prime minister, while George met with her husband, John. My friends who had come for the National Book Festival had all flown home, and even George was gone, in Florida for a school visit. George H. W. Bush and Bar had spent the night, but they had already left at 7:00 a.m. to catch an early flight. And I had what I considered a big day planned. I was set to arrive at the Capitol at 9:15 to brief the Senate Education Committee, chaired by Edward M. Kennedy, on the findings of the early childhood development conference that I’d held in July. In the afternoon, we were hosting the entire Congress and their families for the annual Congressional Picnic. The South Lawn of the White House was already covered with picnic tables awaiting their fluttering cloths, and Tom Perini from Buffalo Gap, Texas, was setting up his chuckwagons. Our entertainment would be old-fashioned square dancing and Texas swing music by Ray Benson and his classic band, Asleep at the Wheel. I finished dressing in silence, going over my statement again in my mind. I was very nervous about appearing before a Senate committee and having news cameras trained on me. Had the TV been turned on, I might have heard the first fleeting report of a plane hitting the North Tower of the World Trade Center at the tip of Manhattan as I walked out the door to the elevator. Instead, it was the head of my Secret Service detail, Ron Sprinkle, who leaned over and whispered the news in my ear as I entered the car a few minutes after 9:00 a.m. for the ride to the Russell Senate Office Building, adjacent to the Capitol. Andi Ball, now my chief of staff at the White House; Domestic Policy Advisor Margaret Spellings; and I speculated about what could have happened: a small plane, a Cessna perhaps, running into one of those massive towers on this perfect September morning. We wondered too if Hillary Clinton might decide not to attend the committee briefing, since the World Trade Center was in New York. We were driving up Pennsylvania Avenue when word came that the South Tower had been hit. The car fell silent; we sat in mute disbelief. One plane might be a strange accident; two planes were clearly an attack. I thought about George and wondered if the Secret Service had already hustled him to the motorcade and begun the race to Air Force One to return home. Two minutes later, at 9:16 a.m., we pulled up at the entrance to the Russell Building. In the time it had taken to drive the less than two miles between the White House and the Capitol, the world as I knew it had irrevocably changed. Senator Kennedy was waiting to greet me, according to plan. We both knew when we met that the towers had been hit and, without a word being spoken, knew that there would be no briefing that morning. Together, we walked the short distance to his office. He began by presenting me with a limited-edition print; it was a vase of bright daffodils, a copy of a painting he had created for his wife, Victoria, and given to her on their wedding day. The print was inscribed to me and dated September 11, 2001. An old television was turned on in a corner of the room, and I glanced over to see the plumes of smoke billowing from the Twin Towers. Senator Kennedy kept his eyes averted from the screen. Instead he led me on a tour of his office, pointing out various pictures, furniture, pieces of memorabilia, even a framed note that his brother Jack had sent to their mother when he was a child, in which he wrote, “Teddy is getting fat.” The senator, who would outlive all his brothers by more than forty years, laughed at the note as he showed it to me, still finding it amusing. All the while, I kept glancing over at the glowing television screen. My skin was starting to crawl, I wanted to leave, to find out what was going on, to process what I was seeing, but I felt trapped in an endless cycle of pleasantries. It did not occur to me to say, “Senator Kennedy, what about the towers?” I simply followed his lead, and he may have feared that if we actually began to contemplate what had happened in New York, I might dissolve into tears. Senator Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the ranking Republican on the committee and one of our very good friends in the Senate—Judd had played Al Gore for George during mock debates at the ranch the previous fall—was also designated to escort me to the committee room, and he arrived just as I was completing the tour. Senator Kennedy invited us to sit on the couches, and he continued chatting about anything other than the horrific images unfolding on the tiny screen across the room. I looked around his shoulder but could see very little, and I was still trying to pay attention to him and the thread of his conversation. It seemed completely unreal, sitting in this elegant, sunlit office as an immense tragedy unfolded. We sat as human beings driven by smoke, flame, and searing heat jumped from the tops of the Twin Towers to end their lives and as firemen in full gear began the climb up the towers’ stairs. I have often wondered if the small talk that morning was Ted Kennedy’s defense mechanism, if after so much tragedy—the combat death of his oldest brother in World War II, the assassinations of his brothers Jack and Robert, and the deaths of nephews, including John Jr., whose body he identified when it was pulled from the cold, dark waters off Martha’s Vineyard—if after all of those things, he simply could not look upon another grievous tragedy. At about 9:45, after George had made a brief statement to the nation, which we watched, clustered around a small television that was perched on the receptionist’s desk, Ted Kennedy, Judd Gregg, and I walked out to tell reporters that my briefing had been postponed. I said, “You heard from the president this morning, and Senator Kennedy and Senator Gregg and I both join his statement in saying that our hearts and our prayers go out to the victims of this act of terrorism, and that our support goes to the rescue workers. And all of our prayers are with everyone there right now.” As I turned to exit, Laurence McQuillan of USA Today asked a question. “Mrs. Bush, you know, children are kind of struck by all this. Is there a message you could tell to the nation’s—” I didn’t even wait for him to finish but began, “Well, parents need to reassure their children everywhere in our country that they’re safe.” As we walked out of the briefing room, the cell phone of my advance man, John Meyers, rang. A friend told him that CNN was reporting that an airplane had crashed into the Pentagon. Within minutes, the order would be given to evacuate the White House and the Capitol. I walked back to Senator Kennedy’s office and then began moving quickly toward the stairs, to reach my car to return to the White House. Suddenly, the lead Secret Service agent turned to me and my staff and said that we needed to head to the basement immediately. We took off at a run; Judd Gregg suggested his private office, which was in the lower level and was an interior room. The Secret Service then told John that they were waiting for an Emergency Response Team to reach the Capitol. The team would take me, but my staff would be left behind. Overhearing the conversation, I turned back and said, “No, everyone is coming.” We entered Judd’s office, where I tried to call Barbara and Jenna, and Judd tried to call his daughter, who was in New York. Then we sat and talked quietly about our families and our worries for them, and the overwhelming shock we both felt. Sometime after 10:00 a.m., when the entire Capitol was being emptied, when White House staffers had fled barefoot and sobbing through the heavy iron gates with Secret Service agents shouting at them to “Run, run!” my agents collected me. They now included an additional Secret Service detail and an Emergency Response Team, dressed in black tactical clothing like a SWAT force and moving with guns drawn. As we raced through the dim hallways of the Russell Building, past panicked staffers emptying from their offices, the ERT team shouted “GET BACK” and covered my every move with their guns. We reached the underground entrance; the doors on the motorcade slammed shut, and we sped off. The Secret Service had decided to take me temporarily to their headquarters, located in a nondescript federal office building a few blocks from the White House. Following the Oklahoma City bombing, their offices had been reinforced to survive a large-scale blast. Outside our convoy windows, the city streets were clogged with people evacuating their workplaces and trying to reach their own homes. By the time I had reached my motorcade, Flight 93 had crashed in a Pennsylvania field and the west side of the Pentagon had begun to collapse. Judd Gregg walked alone to the underground Senate parking garage and retrieved his car, the last one left there. He pulled out of the garage and headed home, across the Fourteenth Street Bridge and past the Pentagon, thick with smoke and flame. In the intervening years, Judd and I, and many others, were left to contemplate what if Flight 93 had not been forced down by its passengers into an empty field; what if, shortly after 10:00 a.m., it had reached the Capitol Dome? We arrived at the Secret Service building via an underground entrance and were escorted first to the director’s office and then belowground to a windowless conference room with blank walls and a mustard yellow table. A large display screen with a constant TV feed took up most of one wall. Walking through the hallways, I saw a sign emblazoned with the emergency number 9-1-1. Had the terrorists thought about our iconic number when they picked this date and planned an emergency so overwhelming? For a while, I sat in a small area off the conference room, silently watching the images on television. I watched the replay as the South Tower of the World Trade Center roared with sound and then collapsed into a silent gray plume, offering my personal prayer to God to receive the victims with open arms. The North Tower had given way, live in front of my eyes, sending some 1,500 souls and 110 stories of gypsum and concrete buckling to the ground. So much happened during those terrible hours at the tip of Manhattan. That morning, as the people who worked in the towers descended, water from the sprinkler system was racing down the darkened stairwells. With their feet soaked, for some the greatest fear was that when they reached the bottom, the rushing water would be too high and they would be drowned. A few walked to safety under a canopy of skylights covered with the bodies of those who had jumped. Over two hundred people jumped to escape the heat, smoke, and flames. I was told that Father Mychal Judge, the chaplain for the New York City Fire Department, who had come to offer aid, comfort, and last rites, was killed that morning by the body of someone who had, in desperation, hurled himself from the upper floors of one of those towers. Video: Bush memoir to revisit 9/11, 2000 election The early expectation was for horrific numbers of deaths. Manhattan emergency rooms and hospitals as far away as Dallas were placed on Code Red, expecting to receive airlifted survivors. Some fifty thousand people worked inside the towers; on a beautiful day, as many as eighty thousand tourists would visit an observation deck on the South Tower’s 107th floor, where the vistas stretched for fifty miles. Had those hijacked planes struck the towers thirty or forty or fifty minutes later, the final toll might well have been in the tens of thousands. Inside Secret Service headquarters, I asked my staff to call their families, and I called the girls, who had been whisked away by Secret Service agents to secure locations. In Austin, Jenna had been awakened by an agent pounding on her dorm door. In her room at Yale, Barbara had heard another student sobbing uncontrollably a few doors down. Then I called my mother, because I wanted her to know that I was safe and I wanted so much to hear the sound of her voice. And I tried to reach George, but my calls could not get through; John Meyers, my advance man, promised to keep trying. I did know from the Secret Service that George had taken off from Florida, safe on board Air Force One. I knew my daughters and my mother were safe. But beyond that, everything was chaos. I was told that Barbara Olson, wife of Solicitor General Ted Olson, had been aboard the plane that hit the Pentagon. At one point, we also received word that Camp David had been attacked and hit. I began thinking of all the people who would have been there, like Bob Williams, the chaplain. Another report had a plane crashing into our ranch in Crawford. It got so that we were living in five-minute increments, wondering if a new plane would emerge from the sky and hit a target. All of us in that basement conference room and many more in the Secret Service building were relying on rumors and on whatever news came from the announcers on television. When there were reports of more errant planes or other targets, it was almost impossible not to believe them. George had tried to call me from Air Force One. It is stunning now to think that our “state-of-the-art” communications would not allow him to complete a phone call to Secret Service headquarters, or me to reach him on Air Force One. On my second call from the secure line, our third attempt, I was finally able to contact the plane, a little before twelve noon. I was grateful just to hear his voice, to know that he was all right, and to tell him the girls were fine. From the way he spoke, I could hear how starkly his presidency had been transformed. We remained in that drab conference room for hours, eventually turning off the repetitive horror of the images on the television. Inside, I felt a grief, a loss, a mourning like I had never known. A few blocks away, in the Chrysler offices near Pennsylvania Avenue, a group of White House senior staff began to gather. After the evacuation, some of those who were new to Washington had been wandering, dazed and shaken, in nearby Lafayette Park. By midafternoon, seventy staff members had congregated inside this office building, attempting to resume work, while Secret Service agents stood in the lobby and forbade anyone without a White House pass from entering. Key presidential and national security staff and Vice President Cheney were still sealed away in the small underground emergency center deep below the White House. As the skies and streets grew silent, there was a debate over what to do with George and what to do with me. The Secret Service detail told me to be prepared to leave Washington for several days at least. My assistant, Sarah Moss, was sent into the White House to gather some of my clothes. John Meyers accompanied her to retrieve Spot, Barney, and Kitty. Then we got word that the president was returning to Washington. I would be staying as well. Late in the afternoon, I spoke to George again. At 6:30 we got in a Secret Service caravan to drive to the White House. I gazed out the window; the city had taken on the cast of an abandoned movie set: the sun was shining, but the streets were deserted. We could not see a person on the sidewalk or any vehicles driving on the street. There was no sound at all except for the roll of our wheels over the ground. We drove at full throttle through the gate, and the agents hopped out. Heavily armed men in black swarmed over the grounds. Before I got out, one of my agents, Dave Saunders, who had been driving, turned around and said, “Mrs. Bush, I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry.” He said it with the greatest of concern and a hint of emotion in his voice. He knew what this day meant for us. I was hustled inside and downstairs through a pair of big steel doors that closed behind me with a loud hiss, forming an airtight seal. I was now in one of the unfinished subterranean hallways underneath the White House, heading for the PEOC, the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, built for President Franklin Roosevelt during World War II. We walked along old tile floors with pipes hanging from the ceiling and all kinds of mechanical equipment. The PEOC is designed to be a command center during emergencies, with televisions, phones, and communications facilities. I was ushered into the conference room adjacent to the PEOC’s nerve center. It’s a small room with a large table. National Security Advisor Condi Rice, Counselor to the President Karen Hughes, Deputy Chief of Staff Josh Bolten, and Dick and Lynne Cheney were already there, where they had been since the morning. Lynne, whose agents had brought her to the White House just after the first attack, came over and hugged me. Then she said quietly into my ear, “The plane that hit the Pentagon circled the White House first.” I felt a shiver vibrate down my spine. Unlike the major monuments and even the leading government buildings in Washington, the White House sits low to the ground. It is a three-story building, tucked away in a downward slope toward the Potomac. When the White House was first built, visitors complained about the putrid scent rising from the river and the swampy grounds nearby. From the air, the White House is hard to see and hard to reach. A plane could circle it and find no plausible approach. And that is what Lynne Cheney told me had happened that morning, a little past 9:30, before Flight 77 crossed the river and thundered into the Pentagon. At 7:10 that night, George strode into the PEOC. Early that afternoon, he had conducted a secure videoconference from Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska with the CIA and FBI directors, as well as the military Joint Chiefs of Staff and the vice president and his national security staff, giving instructions and getting briefings on the latest information. Over the objections of the Secret Service, he had insisted upon returning home. We hugged and talked with the Cheneys a bit. Then the Secret Service detail suggested that we spend the night there, belowground. They showed us the bed, a foldout that looked like it had been installed when FDR was president. George and I stared at it, and we both said no, George adding, “We’re not going to sleep down here. We’re going to go upstairs and you can get us if something happens.” He said, “I’ve got to get sleep, in our own bed.” George was preparing to speak to the nation from the Oval Office, to reassure everyone and to show that the president was safely back in Washington, ready to respond. By 7:30 we were on our way up to the residence. I have no memory of having eaten dinner—George may have eaten on the plane. He tried to call the girls as soon as we were upstairs but couldn’t reach them. Barbara called back close to 8:00 p.m., and then George left to make remarks to the nation. We did finally climb into our own bed that night, exhausted and emotionally drained. Outside the doors of the residence, the Secret Service detail stood in their usual posts. I fell asleep, but it was a light, fitful rest, and I could feel George staring into the darkness beside me. Then I heard a man screaming as he ran, “Mr. President, Mr. President, you’ve got to get up. The White House is under attack.” We jumped up, and I grabbed a robe and stuck my feet into my slippers, but I didn’t stop to put in my contacts. George grabbed Barney; I grabbed Kitty. With Spot trailing behind, we started walking down to the PEOC. George had wanted to take the elevator, but the agents didn’t think it was safe, so we had to descend flight after flight of stairs, to the state floor, then the ground floor, and below, while I held George’s hand because I couldn’t see anything. My heart was pounding, and all I could do was count stairwell landings, trying to count off in my mind how many more floors we had to go. When we reached the PEOC, I saw the outline of a military sergeant unfolding the ancient hideaway bed and putting on some sheets. At that moment, another agent ran up to us and said, “Mr. President, it’s one of our own.” The plane was ours. For months afterward at night, in bed, we’d hear the military jets thundering overhead, traveling so fast that the ground below quivered and shook. They would make one pass and then, three or five minutes later, make another low-flying loop. I would fall asleep to the roar of the fighters in the skies, hearing in my mind those words, “one of our own.” There was a quiet security in that, in knowing that we slept beneath the watchful cover of our own. Waking the next morning, I had the sensation of knowing before my eyes opened that something terrible had happened, something beyond comprehension, and I wondered for a brief instant if it had all been a dream. Then I saw George, and I knew, knew that yesterday would be with us, each day, for all of our days to come. Excerpted from "Spoken from the Heart" by Laura Bush. Copyright © 2010 by Laura Bush. Excerpted with permission by Scribner, a Division of Simon & Schuster, Inc. © 2010 MSNBC Interactive URL: http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/36943246/ns/today-today_books/ MSN Privacy . Legal © 2010 MSNBC.comThe people who believe the government's insane conspiracy theory MAY be subjects of an Artificial Stupidity program that succeeded beyond the wildest dreams of its creator.
Laura Bush recalls 9/11 panic at White House
updated 9:15 a.m. ET, Wed., May 5, 2010
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#236. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#233)
Well, according to this source:
They might as well have him argue that "the Cow really did jump over the Moon".
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#237. To: buckeroo (#224)
Glad to oblige. 
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#238. To: wudidiz (#236)
LOL!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#239. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, All (#236)
Well, according to this source: Not only that, but it looks like the dish also ran away with the spoon: (Computer Simulation)
They might as well have him argue that "the Cow really did jump over the Moon".
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#240. To: wudidiz (#239)
Heh, heh, heh, heh. Reminds me of "Popular Mechanics".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#241. To: buckeroo (#235)
George couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery or find his ass with a map and both hands. Whatever the shortcomings of Bush, and lo, they are legion, has nothing to do with the claptrap that you and aggravator and a few other folks try to foist off on us. Magicakal Jet Fuel™, Magickal Cell Phones™, bs "pilots" who can't fly a Cessna well enough to get a license yet fly big commercial aircraft like stunt planes. Buildings falling at near freefall speed into their own footprint. One of which was not impacted by any plane--and no steel-framed skyscraper has ever fallen due to fire, none before 9/11 and none since. uh huh. Get real, buck.
GWBush couldn't find her there was so much pandemonium.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#242. To: Original_Intent (#240)
Don't laugh, this is done by highly qualified scientists and experts. Are you a cartoonist? I didn't think so...
eh, heh, heh, heh. Reminds me of "Popular Mechanics".
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#243. To: Original_Intent, Former Lurker (#234)
That seems to be the only explanation that makes any sense.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#244. To: Original_Intent (#34)
My daughter heard two explosions, but she is not sure now how close they were. She was younger then, and scared out of her wits. I knew it was an inside job when I first heard the plane going over, since I had been forewarned by something Lyndon LaRouche had written back in May, 2001, I think. I remember reading the two Northern flights passed by military airports. I read that long after I read Carol Valentine's "Flight of the Bumble Plane" theory about Flight 77. It made a little blip in its flight pattern over Jay Rockefeller's West Virginia, but anyway, it wasn't far from the MILITARY-COMMERCIAL airport in Charles Town. I think possibly flight 77 was switched with the Skywarrior mid-air, flight 77 landed at the military airport, and as some have said, the passengers loaded onto Flight 93 [I don't have the timeline there, so I don't know if that fits], where it was subsequently shot down by the Happy Hooligans, who were on a special mission to Andrews Air Force Base [which SHOULD have been protecting the Pentagon and DC, but whose pilots were sent on another mission out of town], and who were rewarded with a medal by Congress for their deed [they probably thought they were doing good....wonder if they're still alive today?]. Some people think, since all the planes were only 1/3 full, that all the passengers were loaded onto Flight 93. Some think the planes were sent over the ocean, where the Navy was doing drills that day to shoot down enemy aircraft. [They might have thought they were shooting holographic images!] What a shame all that creativity couldn't have been put to better use, bettering mankind, instead of destroying it.
Taken as valid that would seem to validate the "David Copperfield" scenario wherein the plane is flown over the building and then another object hits or demolition charges are set off - patterned to make it look like a hit. The key factor being, of course, the timing. The "hit"/"explosion" would have to occur perhaps a second ahead of the actual overflight thus creating the illusion the plane hit. Then of course they just ditch, or land it and then whack the witnesses (passengers).
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#245. To: buckeroo (#235)
I noticed she didn't mention the "grievous tragedy" that Teddy perpetrated at Chappaquidick. Or her own, where she ran over her boyfriend and killed him.
I have often wondered if the small talk that morning was Ted Kennedy’s defense mechanism, if after so much tragedy—the combat death of his oldest brother in World War II, the assassinations of his brothers Jack and Robert, and the deaths of nephews, including John Jr., whose body he identified when it was pulled from the cold, dark waters off Martha’s Vineyard—if after all of those things, he simply could not look upon another grievous tragedy.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#246. To: buckeroo (#229) (Edited)
Wait a minute, haven't the CT's informed us of the prefab death camps ready to be rolled out any day now? Think "they" did a trial run on a few recalcitrant bean counters that weren't whacked by the American Airlines Flight 77 non-crash back in '01 ? < /snicker>
On the morning of 9/11 are you or anyone aware of what happened in Washington DC for evacuation planning and execution for the bureaucrats?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#247. To: James Deffenbach (#241)
Yeah ... but he planned the successful 9/11 disaster to make way for Afghanistan and Iraq failures didn't he?
George couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery or find his ass with a map and both hands.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#248. To: buckeroo (#235)
More bs. That plane was shot down as evidenced by the fact that one piece of an engine, weighing about a ton, was found something like 2,000 YARDS away from the crash site. That is more than a mile and that piece of an engine was not a rubber ball. People should know at least some of what they're talking about or not include speculation in their books about what can only be labeled as government propaganda. Ill-informed and unbelievable propaganda at that.
In the intervening years, Judd and I, and many others, were left to contemplate what if Flight 93 had not been forced down by its passengers into an empty field;
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#249. To: James Deffenbach (#245)
I know, I know ... she didn't talk about ALOT of things about that 9/11 morning..... such as GWBush's hemorrhoids ... her own vaginal chaffing ... Jenna's tongue, Cheney's daily phone call ... blah blah blah.
I noticed she didn't mention the "grievous tragedy" that Teddy perpetrated at Chappaquidick. Or her own, where she ran over her boyfriend and killed him.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#250. To: buckeroo (#235)
Hmmm.
At that moment, another agent ran up to us and said, “Mr. President, it’s one of our own.” The plane was ours.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#251. To: buckeroo (#247)
Nobody is saying he planned it, but he DID more than likely go along with it.
Yeah ... but he planned the successful 9/11 disaster to make way for Afghanistan and Iraq failures didn't he?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#252. To: AGAviator (#246)
I like the knee_slapper about the FEMA caskets; that one is the best.
Wait a minute, haven't the CT's informed us of the prefab death camps ready to be rolled out any day now?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#253. To: buckeroo (#235)
I guess they could have prosecuted George for treason. Don't know what they could have done with her.
As the skies and streets grew silent, there was a debate over what to do with George and what to do with me.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#254. To: FormerLurker (#251)
This is ripe, man. I haven't had so many laffs in my life in so little time ........ Was his poppa in on it too? About his brother, Jed?
Nobody is saying he planned it, but he [GWBush] DID more than likely go along with it.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#255. To: buckeroo (#247)
I don't recall anyone saying George planned anything and I know I haven't said it. I have said that it is obvious he went along with the plan. But planned it? No.
Yeah ... but he planned the successful 9/11 disaster to make way for Afghanistan and Iraq failures didn't he?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#256. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#244)
I can't say that I have sorted it all out, but you are right in that a lot of thought and planning had to go into this event. It was probably several years in the works. It almost would have had to have been, because of the logistics of setting up the demolition charges without anyone noticing. The choice of targets is telling too. While the cover story has been put out that for some strange reason Bin Laden wanted to destroy "symbols" of the west it just does not add up. The psychology is wrong. A terrorist wants to create as much mayhem and havoc as possible. Those planes flew over several nuclear plants and an impact into one of them would have created havoc for hundreds of miles around and killed many thousands of people indirectly through radiation exposure. The areas around the plants would have been uninhabitable for more than a century. If he wanted to hit symbols why choose the Pentagon when in the same area you have the Capitol Dome and the White House - much more potent as symbols and much more devastating than carefully hitting the one spot in the Pentagram that had just been hardened, was on the opposite side of the building from all the Brass, and contained the Audits Unit that was researching the missing 2.3 Trillion dollars? The same with Bldg. 7 which housed the SEC's investigation of shenanigans on Wall Street and would have been the unit to investigate the highly suspicious Put Option sales in the week before 911. There was definitely something of misdirection at the Pentagram but with the confiscation of all surveillance videos, and hiding them under lock and key, exactly what was done is left open to only circumstantial analysis which the Spooks can try to confuse and invalidate through disinformation antics. Without getting bogged down in the minutiae of the technical details, which the PsyOps crowd is busy trying to make as confusing as possible, one can just step back and looking at the totality of the observed events and the actions of the players and say SOMETHING STINKS. And it stinks real bad. The only rational conclusion is that the events of 911 were conducted with the foreknowledge and aid of persons very high in our government. The cover-up alone, after the fact, tells us there is collusion.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#257. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker (#255)
I can't believe this but I will say ... both you and FormerLurker.... play too many video games and watch too many Hollywood movies.
I don't recall anyone saying George planned anything and I know I haven't said it. I have said that it is obvious he went along with the plan. But planned it? No.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#258. To: buckeroo (#235)
It sounds like Laura wasn't clued in. Genesis 9:8 And God spoke to NOAH and his sons..... Genesis 9:11 THUS I ESTABLISH MY COVENANT WITH YOU: Never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood; never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth..... See the NOAHIDE LAW and its relationship to 911 at Carol Valentine's "Merry Christmas AND OFF WITH YOUR HEAD". They have rejected the covenant with Christ [whose b'day is also on 9-11].
Walking through the hallways, I saw a sign emblazoned with the emergency number 9-1-1. Had the terrorists thought about our iconic number when they picked this date and planned an emergency so overwhelming?
"...as long as there..remain active enemies of the Christian church, we may hope to become Master of the World...the future Jewish King will never reign in the world before Christianity is overthrown - B'nai B'rith speech http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/luther.htm / http://bible.cc/psalms/83-4.htm
#259. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#258)
You would have thought that GWBush (while fucking his own wife on 9/10/2001 ... the night before 9/11) would have said something to the effect: It sounds like Laura wasn't clued in.
Honey, tomorrow I am going to read about Goat's in Florida to a pile of Negroe children in kindergarten. While I am away .... you just might die because of a plan to destroy the WhiteHouse and the Pentagon. Don't worry about me though.... my book is read up-side-down!
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#260. To: buckeroo (#254)
Was his poppa in on it too? About his brother, Jed? Ya think Shrub swore fealty to Satan, while a member of that Yale frat that had Geronomo's skull?
Nobody is saying he planned it, but he [GWBush] DID more than likely go along with it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#261. To: Original_Intent (#256)
The choice of targets is telling too. While the cover story has been put out that for some strange reason Bin Laden wanted to destroy "symbols" of the west it just does not add up. The psychology is wrong. A terrorist wants to create as much mayhem and havoc as possible. Those planes flew over several nuclear plants and an impact into one of them would have created havoc for hundreds of miles around and killed many thousands of people indirectly through radiation exposure. The areas around the plants would have been uninhabitable for more than a century. If he wanted to hit symbols why choose the Pentagon when in the same area you have the Capitol Dome and the White House - much more potent as symbols and much more devastating than carefully hitting the one spot in the Pentagram that had just been hardened, was on the opposite side of the building from all the Brass, and contained the Audits Unit that was researching the missing 2.3 Trillion dollars? The same with Bldg. 7 which housed the SEC's investigation of shenanigans on Wall Street and would have been the unit to investigate the highly suspicious Put Option sales in the week before 911. There was definitely something of misdirection at the Pentagram but with the confiscation of all surveillance videos, and hiding them under lock and key, exactly what was done is left open to only circumstantial analysis which the Spooks can try to confuse and invalidate through disinformation antics. Without getting bogged down in the minutiae of the technical details, which the PsyOps crowd is busy trying to make as confusing as possible, one can just step back and looking at the totality of the observed events and the actions of the players and say SOMETHING STINKS. And it stinks real bad. The only rational conclusion is that the events of 911 were conducted with the foreknowledge and aid of persons very high in our government. The cover-up alone, after the fact, tells us there is collusion. Good post, OI.
I can't say that I have sorted it all out, but you are right in that a lot of thought and planning had to go into this event. It was probably several years in the works. It almost would have had to have been, because of the logistics of setting up the demolition charges without anyone noticing.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#262. To: Original_Intent (#256)
This is another thing I have thought about. Why didn't Osama, he of the Magickal Cell Phone™, know that if the attacks happened an hour or so later that they would have killed far more people? Doesn't it make sense, if the goal is to create terror, to take out as many people as possible? A couple of hours later the death toll might easily have passed 50,000. The only way they could have done less damage would have been to have stolen a plane at an airport at 3 in the morning and killed the cleaning crew when the plane(s) hit the buildings. But then, Osama sitting over there in his cave, had about as much to do with that as Oswald did in Kennedy's murder. He was a convenient patsy, the best enemy money could buy.
While the cover story has been put out that for some strange reason Bin Laden wanted to destroy "symbols" of the west it just does not add up. The psychology is wrong. A terrorist wants to create as much mayhem and havoc as possible.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#263. To: Original_Intent (#256)
What cover-up?
The only rational conclusion is that the events of 911 were conducted with the foreknowledge and aid of persons very high in our government. The cover-up alone, after the fact, tells us there is collusion.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#264. To: buckeroo (#257)
I watch very few movies--probably fewer than you do--and as for video games, I play some pinball on my computer. So I guess you are not that good at guessing about other folks' activities.
I can't believe this but I will say ... both you and FormerLurker.... play too many video games and watch too many Hollywood movies.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#265. To: AGAviator (#260)
There is no question about it.... the ye ol' Skull&Bones club stikes again... meanwhile, tens of thousands of Washington DC bureaucrats attempted to escape to their appointed bunkers ..... What happened? The lazy bureaucrats were fearful for their own lives (WE ARE GOING TO DIE!) ALL at the same time and flooded the freeway systems into Virgina and West Virginia because of their panick and otherwise hysteric antics. They were grid-locked. And the minuscule numbers that made it to the bunkers.... half of them were refused access...... because they weren't authorized even though their bosses told them to do so. ROTFL ... this fucking government can't plan anything more than a water cooler in an air-conditioned office so the bureaucrats can chit-chat about their benfits all day.
Ya think Shrub swore fealty to Satan, while a member of that Yale frat that had Geronomo's skull?
On 9/11, the program was put to the test -- and failed. Not on the national security side: Vice President Cheney and others in the national security leadership were smoothly whisked away from the capital following procedures overseen by the Pentagon and the White House Military Office. But like the mass of Washingtonians, officials from other agencies found themselves virtually on their own, unsure of where to go or what to do, or whom to contact for the answers.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#266. To: buckeroo (#263)
The one either deliberately or inadvertantly perpetrated by people such as you that spin tales of impossible feats, reciting the fable given to the sheep from up high, and ridicule any real facts concerning the events of September 11, 2001.
What cover-up?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#267. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach (#257)
What are you saying, that you think Dubya had the smarts to plan it himself, or that he would if he could?
I can't believe this but I will say ... both you and FormerLurker.... play too many video games and watch too many Hollywood movies.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#268. To: buckeroo (#254)
I'd be more inclined to view his poppy as one of the planners.
Was his poppa in on it too? About his brother, Jed?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#269. To: FormerLurker, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt, James Deffenbach (#267)
See post #265, this thread.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#270. To: Original_Intent, AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#256)
The fact that the government instantly blamed bin Laden, and had the identities of the "hijackers" the same day (even though many of them are actually still alive), along with the fact they made no effort to investigate whether explosives were used in the towers, indicates an inside job. Terrorists have traditionally utilized explosives to make their point, and to ridicule and deride any mention of possible explosives wreaks of cover-up. As far as the Pentagon attack, a real terrorist would have dove down into the TOP of the Pentagon, splashing as much fuel over the entire structure as possible. The entire building, or at least a good portion of it, would have been engulfed in flames. But no, it performs a military fighter jet manuever to AVOID the high value targets (ie, Rumsfeld office and those of other high up brass), flys at tree- top level for a mile, then performs a physically impossible manuever to hit the most reinforced section dead-on. Oh no, nothing to see here, you're a KOOK if you think some imcompetent pilot who couldn't fly a Cessna didn't do all that.
Without getting bogged down in the minutiae of the technical details, which the PsyOps crowd is busy trying to make as confusing as possible, one can just step back and looking at the totality of the observed events and the actions of the players and say SOMETHING STINKS. And it stinks real bad. The only rational conclusion is that the events of 911 were conducted with the foreknowledge and aid of persons very high in our government. The cover-up alone, after the fact, tells us there is collusion.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#271. To: buckeroo (#265)
I'm sure the people who were in on the plan knew where to go.
ROTFL ... this fucking government can't plan anything more than a water cooler in an air-conditioned office so the bureaucrats can chit-chat about their benfits all day.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#272. To: FormerLurker (#268)
George Herbert Walker Bush was born on June 12, 1924. When September 11, 2001 occurred .... that would have made him 75 years old. He could hardly rock in a chair without the hand of his momma (err ... wife ... Barbara) behind him. Why do you think he would give a damn about some fucked upped plot to kill and maim thousands of innocent Americans? Are you daft?
I'd be more inclined to view his poppy as one of the planners.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#273. To: buckeroo (#265)
...But like the mass of Washingtonians, officials from other agencies found themselves virtually on their own, unsure of where to go or what to do, or whom to contact for the answers. What happened? The lazy bureaucrats were fearful for their own lives (WE ARE GOING TO DIE!) ALL at the same time and flooded the freeway systems into Virgina and West Virginia because of their panick and otherwise hysteric antics. They were grid-locked. And the minuscule numbers that made it to the bunkers.... half of them were refused access...... because they weren't authorized even though their bosses told them to do so. Good find. And even here, not one of any USG people who felt hung out to dry on 911, and may have had inklings into the " Mother of All Conspiracies and Cover Ups" has come forward even on deep background to any one of the Twoofersites. And where's Professor Theologian David Ray Griffin to supply sorely needed org charts and project schedules, showing the principalities, powers, human agents, and pending actions of carrying out the Devil's Work on the unsuspecting American publick?
The ye ol' Skull&Bones club stikes again... meanwhile, tens of thousands of Washington DC bureaucrats attempted to escape to their appointed bunkers .....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#274. To: buckeroo (#272)
George Herbert Walker Bush was born on June 12, 1924. When September 11, 2001 occurred .... that would have made him 75 years old. He could hardly rock in a chair without the hand of his momma (err ... wife ... Barbara) behind him. My ass. He's still playing golf and walking around with no problems at all. You paint him as some senile old geriatric, where he's still very much in form for his age. Why do you think he would give a damn about some fucked upped plot to kill and maim thousands of innocent Americans? Are you daft? Sense of duty to his clan, money, power, greed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#275. To: buckeroo, all (#263)
What cover-up? Only willful blindness can keep you from seeing it. Just to cite one example: During the clean-up of ground zero all of the structural debris was kept under armed guard, as it was moved to a holding site it was kept under armed guard, it was then shipped to China, without an Engineering Forensics examination ever being done - which is standard procedure in any structural failure resulting in a loss of life, still under armed guard all the time until the barges moved out of the harbor. There is also testimony, which I am not going to go find a link for - it's out there if you want to look, from witnesses saying that investigators on site were prevented from doing a detailed examination. The steel was sold not to the highest bidder, there is at least one domestic bidder that squawked about that, but to a foreign bidder - the obvious implication being to ensure that no one was able to examine the structural member too closely. And the Chairman of the 911 Commission, which Bush fought establishing for over a year, has repudiated his own commission's final report saying that they were lied to extensively by the White House and Military and prevented from pursuing some avenues of investigation. It is all there in plain daylight for anyone who is not in thrall to the PsyOps "hurdy gurdy" about "19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree".
The only rational conclusion is that the events of 911 were conducted with the foreknowledge and aid of persons very high in our government. The cover-up alone, after the fact, tells us there is collusion.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#276. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#273)
You two act as if the ENTIRE body of government would have to have known about the operation, whereas only a handful of top people around the country would have to have known. Those with the power to order war games at the same time as the attacks, and those with the power to disrupt and sabatoge any real investigation into the attacks themselves, are the ONLY ones that HAD to know what's going on.
And even here, not one of any USG people who felt hung out to dry on 911, and may have had inklings into the " Mother of All Conspiracies and Cover Ups" has come forward even on deep background to any one of the Twoofersites.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#277. To: Original_Intent (#275)
I think Bush wasn't being totally off the wall when he said the "terrorists attacked us because they hate our freedoms". Look at the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act for instance. The REAL terrorists more than likely DO hate the freedoms we once enjoyed in this country, and did what was necessary to strip them away from us.
It is all there in plain daylight for anyone who is not in thrall to the PsyOps "hurdy gurdy" about "19ArabsWhoHateUsCuzWe'reFree".
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#278. To: FormerLurker (#274)
He could care less about active politics or methods of government tyranny at his late age. So you made my point.
He's still playing golf and walking around with no problems at all.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#279. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#276)
Why don't we have one of those books (you know how some of these whistleblowers come out of the closet) or an interview or a thread about who was identified in the HANDFUL of people involved with FACTS as opposed to mere speculation? Have you ever thought that there aren't any because you are chasing having a conspiracy with no legs?
You two act as if the ENTIRE body of government would have to have known about the operation, whereas only a handful of top people around the country would have to have known.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#280. To: buckeroo (#278)
So you think just because he's not out campaigning that he's totally out of the political picture, and has no influence in what goes on? Man are you naive. How old is Kissenger these days?
He could care less about active politics or methods of government tyranny at his late age. So you made my point.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#281. To: FormerLurker (#276)
You two act as if the ENTIRE body of government would have to have known about the operation, whereas only a handful of top people around the country would have to have known. Those with the power to order war games at the same time as the attacks, and those with the power to disrupt and sabatoge any real investigation into the attacks themselves, are the ONLY ones that HAD to know what's going on. That is a common disinformation argument - "well positively everybody in the world would have had to have been "in the know". Which of course is bogus and easily shown to be bogus. In a compartmentalized operation each individual actor knows only his or her orders, and not even the reason for the orders. It is just - "do 'X'". Additionally the black ops community in the U.S. has grown quite large and would have provided the cadre for any such operation. And the naive notion that there are not people in the Spook community evil enough to do this is just flat naive. The argument that positively everybody in the world would have had to have been "in the know" conforms to several points in Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation. 3. Create rumor mongers. Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public can learn of the facts are through such 'arguable rumors'. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a 'wild rumor' from a 'bunch of kids on the Internet' which can have no basis in fact. 4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues. The assertion that "everybody would know" is a generalization at conflict with the known level of secrecy and compartmentalization that operates in government Intelligence Agencies. It is a straw man because it erects a distraction and attempts to equate the straw man with reality. This type of argument also indirect seeks to imply 12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
And even here, not one of any USG people who felt hung out to dry on 911, and may have had inklings into the " Mother of All Conspiracies and Cover Ups" has come forward even on deep background to any one of the Twoofersites.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#282. To: buckeroo (#279)
Have you ever thought that there aren't any because you are chasing having a conspiracy with no legs? Do you think those who would pull off such an operation would leave any loose ends? Anyone complicit with the attacks are either NEVER going to reveal it since they were responsible for those attacks, or they have been neutralized. How many books have been written by "Al-Qaeda" operatives admitting how they planned and carried out the attacks, and how they got away with it? Besides the videos of actors playing bin Laden, how many people have come out and claimed involvement?
Why don't we have one of those books (you know how some of these whistleblowers come out of the closet) or an interview or a thread about who was identified in the HANDFUL of people involved with FACTS as opposed to mere speculation?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#283. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#276) (Edited)
And how many people and time did it take to wire and manage the wiring of the 3 WTC structures, among the largest buildings in the world, with anywhere from 10 to 100 tons of nanothermate per Niels Harritt, k00k emeritus? Along the setting up a complex undetactable advanced detonation system of which not a single shred has ever been found or photographed at any of the NYC crash sites? Sounds like a workforce taking tens of thousands of man hours with an even greater level of management and logistics than normally needed. After all, they weren't exactly driving this junk through the loading docks in broad daylight were they? You Six Percenters make zero sense most of the time. You deny what's obvious: A skilled combat engineer and guerilla leader threatens the US for ten years, gradually escalates his attacks, sets up insurgent training camps, and issues public declarations about how attacks will continue escalating, but is dismissed as not instigating hijackers and suicide bombers because for a few months he parsed words to deny direct involvement. Yet you flog all manner of controverted appeals to belief while claiming to be scholars and scientists. But without offering any argments more substantive than nit picking others' claims and endlessly repeating bromides about "Magick Jet Fuel" and "They hate us for their freedoms" originating in your own confused minds.
You two act as if the ENTIRE body of government would have to have known about the operation, whereas only a handful of top people around the country would have to have known
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#284. To: AGAviator (#283)
Are you for real? 10 to 100 TONS? Try more like a couple of hundred pounds or so of strategically placed remote controlled explosives, with maybe another hundred pounds or so of the nanothermate mixed in with paint. The elevator shafts were being serviced weeks before 9/11, and at least one of the towers had a power shutdown the weekend before 9/11 to allow workers to run cable and wires throughout the building.
And how many people and time did it take to wire and manage the wiring of the 3 WTC structures, among the largest buildings in the world, with anywhere from 10 to 100 tons of nanothermate per Niels Harritt, k00k emeritus?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#285. To: Original_Intent (#281)
Cheers from all the punks and cowards whom perpetrated this disaster minutes after the event occured. And, here you are arguing that some inside government group backed by (Rothchilds????? Wall_Street????? BIG_BANKERS?????? UFO_human_body_snatchers?????) were in on it....
"well positively everybody in the world would have had to have been "in the know". Which of course is bogus and easily shown to be bogus.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#286. To: AGAviator (#283)
You base your fantasy on impossible events, such as skyscrappers falling into their own footprints at close to freefall speeds, committed by "19 arabs who hated us because we are free", 7 or 9 of which are still definitely alive and well. Your delusion relies on the belief that dead people can walk, talk, and give interviews. It also hinges on the belief that a person who couldn't even fly a small single engine aircraft navigated a sophisticated commerical airliner from Ohio to Washington DC, flew it like a fighter jet, and performed the impossible task of flying it straight and level 20 feet or so off the ground at 530 mph, straight into the ground level of the Pentagon.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#287. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, ALL (#285)
You mean these folks? The Five Dancing Israelis Arrested On 9-11
Cheers from all the punks and cowards whom perpetrated this disaster minutes after the event occured.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#288. To: FormerLurker (#287)
uh huh .....
Our purpose was to document the event.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#289. To: AGAviator (#283)
That's better than the 94 percenters which make zero sense all the time.
You Six Percenters make zero sense most of the time.
God is always good!
#290. To: FormerLurker, buckerr, turtle (#284) (Edited)
And how many people and time did it take to wire and manage the wiring of the 3 WTC structures, among the largest buildings in the world, with anywhere from 10 to 100 tons of nanothermate per Niels Harritt, k00k emeritus? Are you for real? 10 to 100 TONS? Try more like a couple of hundred pounds or so of strategically placed remote controlled explosives, with maybe another hundred pounds or so of the nanothermate mixed K00k in chief Harritt says 10 to 100 tons. Try to keep up on yor k00klatather talking points, especially when they come straight from the sources. Who knows, a burst of sanity may visit itself you however briefly when you realize just how deranged their messages are.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#291. To: buckeroo (#288)
The Five Dancing Israelis ...Mossad operatives were seen dancing with joy. A Mossad surveillance team made quite a public spectacle of themselves on 9-11. Police received several calls from angry New Jersey residents claiming "middle-eastern" men with a white van were videotaping the disaster with shouts of joy and mockery. (2) "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me" said a witness. (3) Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6) One anonymous phone call to the authorities actually led them to close down all of New York's bridges and tunnels. The mystery caller told the 9-1-1 dispatcher that a group of Palestinians were mixing a bomb inside of a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel. Here's the transcript from NBC News: (*Writer's note: Why would this mystery caller specifically say that these "Arabs" were Palestinians? How would he know that? Palestinians usually dress in western style clothes, not "sheikh uniforms") Based on that phone call, police then issued a "Be-on-the-Lookout" alert for a white mini-van heading for the city's bridges and tunnels from New Jersey. According to ABC’s 20/20, when the van belonging to the cheering Israelis was stopped by the police, the driver of the van, Sivan Kurzberg, told the officers: Why did he feel Palestinians were a problem for the NYPD? The police and FBI field agents became very suspicious when they found maps of the city with certain places highlighted, box cutters (the same items that the hijackers supposedly used), $4700 cash stuffed in a sock, and foreign passports. Police also told the Bergen Record that bomb sniffing dogs were brought to the van and that they reacted as if they had smelled explosives. (11) The Jerusalem Post later reported that a white van with a bomb was stopped as it approached the George Washington Bridge, but the ethnicity of the suspects was not revealed. Here's what the Jerusalem Post reported on September 12, 2001: American security services overnight stopped a car bomb on the George Washington Bridge. The van, packed with explosives, was stopped on an approach ramp to the bridge. Authorities suspect the terrorists intended to blow up the main crossing between New Jersey and New York, Army Radio reported. (13) It was reported the van contained tonnes of explosives (14). What's really intriguing is that ABC's 20/20 (15), the New York Post (16), and the New Jersey Bergen Record (17) all clearly and unambiguously reported that a white van with Israelis was intercepted on a ramp near Route 3, which leads directly to the Lincoln Tunnel. But the Jerusalem Post, Israeli National News (Arutz Sheva) (18), and Yediot America, (19) all reported, just as clearly and unambiguously, that a white van with Israelis was stopped on a ramp leading to the George Washington Bridge, which is several miles north of the Lincoln Tunnel. It appears as if there may actually have been two white vans involved, one stopped on each crossing. This would not only explain the conflicting reports as to the actual location of the arrests, but would also explain how so many credible eye-witnesses all saw celebrating "middle-easterners" in a white van in so many different locations. It also explains why the New York Post and Steve Gordon (lawyer for the 5 Israelis) originally described how three Israelis were arrested but later increased the total to five. Perhaps one van was meant to drop off a bomb while the other was meant to pick up the first set of drivers while re- crossing back into New Jersey? If a van was to be used as a parked time-bomb on the GW Bridge, then certainly the drivers would need to have a "get-away van" to pick them up and escape. And notice how the van (or vans) stayed away from the third major crossing -the Holland Tunnel- which was where the police had originally been directed to by that anti-Palestinian 9-1-1 "mystery caller". A classic misdirection play. From there, the story gets becomes even more suspicious. The Israelis worked for a Weehawken moving company known as Urban Moving Systems. An American employee of Urban Moving Systems told the The Record of New Jersey that a majority of his co-workers were Israelis and they were joking about the attacks. A few days after the attacks, Urban Moving System's Israeli owner, Dominick Suter, dropped his business and fled the country for Israel. He was in such a hurry to flee America that some of Urban Moving System's customers were left with their furniture stranded in storage facilities (21). The Jewish weekly The Forward reported that the FBI finally concluded that at least two of the detained Israelis were agents working for the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, and that Urban Moving Systems, the ostensible employer of the five Israelis, was a front operation. This was confirmed by two former CIA officers, and they noted that movers' vans are a common intelligence cover. (23). The Israelis were held in custody for 71 days before being quietly released. (24) It doesn't take Sherlock Holmes to connect the dots of the dancing Israeli Mossad agents - here's the most logical scenario: 2. One of them, or an accomplice, then calls a 9-1-1 police dispatcher to report Palestinian bomb-makers in a white van headed for the Holland Tunnel. 3. Having thus pre-framed the Palestinians with this phone call, the Israeli bombers then head for the George Washington Bridge instead, where they will drop off their time-bomb van and escape with Urban Moving accomplices. 4. But the police react very wisely and proactively by closing off ALL bridges and tunnels instead of just the Holland Tunnel. This move inadvertently foils the Israelis' misdirection play and leads to their own capture and 40 day torture. 5. To cover up this story, the U.S. Justice Department rounds up over 1000 Arabs for minor immigration violations and places them in New York area jails. The Israelis therefore become less conspicuous as the government and media can now claim that the Israelis were just immigration violators caught in the same dragnet as many other Arabs. 6. After several months, FBI and Justice Department "higher-ups" are able to gradually push aside the local FBI agents and free the Israelis quietly. Osama bin Laden was immediately blamed for the 9/11 attacks even though he had no previous record of doing anything on this scale. Immediately after the Flight 11 hit World Trade Center 1 The compliant mainstream media completely ignored the Israeli connection. Immediately following the 9-11 attacks the media was filled with stories linking the attacks to bin Laden. TV talking-heads, "experts", and scribblers of every stripe spoon-fed a gullible American public a steady diet of the most outrageous propaganda imaginable. We were told that the reason bin Laden attacked the USA was because he hates our "freedom" and "democracy". The Muslims were "medieval" and they wanted to destroy us because they envied our wealth, were still bitter about the Crusades, and were offended by Britney Spears shaking her tits and ass all over the place! But bin Laden strongly denied any role in the attacks and suggested that Zionists orchestrated the You never heard that quote on your nightly newscast did you? Bin Laden is not named as the perpetrator of 9/11 by the FBI: When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden’s Most Wanted web page (30), [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.” (31) To date, the only shred of “evidence” to be uncovered against bin Laden is a barely audible fuzzy amateur video that the Pentagon just happened to find "lying around" in Afghanistan. How very convenient, and how very fake. (33) There is no evidence, be it hard or circumstantial, to link the Al Qaeda "terrorist network" to these acts of terror, but there is a mountain of evidence, both hard and circumstantial, which suggests that Zionists have been very busy framing Arabs for terror plots against America. If the sovereign foreign government mentioned by Senator Graham was an enemy of the United States the "compelling evidence" would not be kept secret for 20+ years. One final point; at 09:40 on 9-11 it was reported that the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine claimed responsibility for the attacks (35). This claim was immediately denied by the DFLP leader Qais abu Leila who said it had always opposed "terror attacks on civilian targets, especially outside the occupied territories." (36) Why would a Palestinian organisation comprising of less than 500 people (37) make the suicidal move of immediately claiming responsibility for the attacks? The implication of Palestinians in the 9/11 attacks would have handed Zionists a golden opportunity to achieve the above because all Palestinians would have been labelled terrorists. US official quoted in Carl Cameron's Fox News report on the Israeli spy ring. See also: Federal Assistance to Recipient URBAN MOVING SYSTEMS INC
Arrested On 9- 11
As the world watched in disbelief and asked the question...
The New York Times reported Thursday that a group of five men had set up video cameras aimed at the Twin Towers prior to the attack on Tuesday, and were seen congratulating one another afterwards. (1) [T]hey were seen by New Jersey residents on Sept. 11 making fun of the World Trade Center ruins and going to extreme lengths to photograph themselves in front of the wreckage. (4) "It looked like they're hooked in with this. It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park." (7) Dispatcher: Jersey City police.
Caller: Yes, we have a white van, 2 or 3 guys in there, they look like Palestinians and going around a building.
Caller: There's a minivan heading toward the Holland tunnel, I see the guy by Newark Airport mixing some junk and he has those sheikh uniform.
Dispatcher: He has what?
Caller: He's dressed like an Arab. (8) 
White, 2000 Chevrolet van with 'Urban Moving Systems' sign on back seen at Liberty State Park, Jersey City, NJ, at the time of first impact of jetliner into World Trade Center Three individuals with van were seen celebrating after initial impact and subsequent explosion. FBI Newark Field Office requests that, if the van is located, hold for prints and detain individuals. (9) When a van fitting that exact description was stopped just before crossing into New York, the suspicious "middle-easterners" were apprehended. Imagine the surprise of the police officers when these terror suspects turned out to be Israelis! "We are Israelis. We are not your problem. Your problems are our problems. The Palestinians are your problem." (10) The FBI seized and developed their photos, one of which shows Sivan Kurzberg flicking a cigarette lighter in front of the smouldering ruins in an apparently celebratory gesture. (12) 
"...two suspects are in FBI custody after a truckload of explosives was discovered around the George Washington Bridge ... The FBI ... says enough explosives were in the truck to do great damage to the George Washington Bridge." The employee, who declined to give his name said: "I was in tears. These guys were joking and that bothered me." These guys were like, "Now America knows what we go through." (20) Suter's departure was abrupt, leaving behind coffee cups, sandwiches, cell phones and computers strewn on office tables and thousands of dollars of goods in storage. Suter was later placed on the same FBI suspect list as 9/11 lead hijacker Mohammed Atta and other hijackers and suspected al- Qaeda sympathizers, suggesting that U.S. authorities felt Suter may have known something about the attacks. (22) "There was no question but that [the order to close down the investigation] came from the White House. It was immediately assumed at CIA headquarters that this basically was going to be a cover-up so that the Israelis would not be implicated in any way in 9/11." (25) Several of the detainees discussed their experience in America on an Israeli talk show after their return home. Said one of the men, denying that they were laughing or happy on the morning of Sept. 11, "The fact of the matter is we are coming from a country that experiences terror daily. Our purpose was to document the event." (26) How did they know there would be an event to document on 9/11? 1. The Israeli "movers" cheered the 9-11 attacks to celebrate the successful accomplishment of the greatest spy operation ever pulled off in history.
CIA Director George Tenet said "You know, this has bin Laden's fingerprints all over it." (27)
9-11 attacks. The BBC published bin Laden's statement of denial in which he said:"I was not involved in the September 11 attacks in the United States nor did I have knowledge of the attacks. There exists a government within a government within the United States. The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself; to the people who want to make the present century a century of conflict between Islam and Christianity. That secret government must be asked as to who carried out the attacks. ... The American system is totally in control of the Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States." (28) [A] number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked. "It's so huge. He couldn't have done it alone." A senior military officer told me that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved. (29) "So we've never made the case, or argued the case that somehow Osama bin Laden [sic] was directly involved in 9/11. That evidence has never been forthcoming" - Dick Cheney. (32) "I think there is very compelling evidence that at least some of the terrorists were assisted not just in financing -- although that was part of it -- by a sovereign foreign government ... It will become public at some point when it's turned over to the archives, but that's 20 or 30 years from now" - Senator Bob Graham. (34) Sharon and the other Israeli leaders aspire to fulfil what the goals of the political Zionist movement have been since its origin a century ago: to turn all of historic Palestine into an exclusively Jewish state. A central tenet of the Zionist ideology is expressed in the racist slogan, "A land without people for a people without a land." (38) "Evidence linking these Israelis to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It's classified information." 
"By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
Motto of the Mossad
2002: Police Seize Rental Truck With TNT Traces Driven By Israelis
Netanyahu says 9/11 terror attacks good for Israel
Zionist Circles Benefit From WTC Collapse
Israel and 9/11 - Index of What Really Happened
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#292. To: AGAviator (#290)
So how many dead people have YOU spoken with personally? If you've never tried it, perhaps you should give some of those hijackers a call over in their respective counties.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#293. To: AGAviator (#290)
Perhaps he's just another disinfo k00k, just like you.
K00k in chief Harritt says 10 to 100 tons.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#294. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#293)
K00k in chief Harritt says 10 to 100 tons. Perhaps he's just another disinfo k00k, just like you. How fucking lame, even for a Six Percenter loser like you. Harritt is the lead author of the only so called "peer reviewed" publication of "911 studies" ever published - the hole in the wall Dhubai "Open Chemical Physics Journal " which someone paid $800 to get into print. Now you're calling him "Perhaps...another disinfo k00k" as he gets caught in one of his many whoppers. And you, shamelessly changing your supporters at the drop of a hat.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#295. To: FormerLurker (#280)
387?
Man are you naive. How old is Kissenger these days?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#296. To: AGAviator (#294)
How fucking lame are YOU, master of projection, where you not only believe in impossible faery tales, but you continue to call people who are infinintly more sane and intelligent than yourself "6 percenters". Get over yourself, most REAL surveys indicate at least a third of Americans (33% for the math challenged) feel that 9/11 was an "inside job".
How fucking lame, even for a Six Percenter loser like you.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#297. To: AGAviator (#294)
Who cares? Does he or his comments change the fact that skyscrappers simply CAN NOT fall into their own footprint at close to free fall speed? The answer is no, it does not change a thing.
Harritt is the lead author of the only so called "peer reviewed" publication of "911 studies" ever published - the hole in the wall Dhubai "Open Chemical Physics Journal " which someone paid $800 to get into print.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#298. To: FormerLurker (#291)
And?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#299. To: buckeroo (#298)
Seems like you were placing the blame on the Palestinians, just like your good buddies the Israeli Mossad had tried to do...
And?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#300. To: FormerLurker (#299) (Edited)
What happened to your "dancing MOSSAD" squadron? Detained for five months? Hmmmm. [edit: apparently the "planners" had a hole in their respective shoes]
just like your good buddies the Israeli Mossad had tried to do...
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#301. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#297)
Your 2 statements have been extensively and conclusively debunked. The buildings fell into their own footprints because absent a sideways pushing/pulling force exceeding their entire mass of the falling sections, and cabable of acting within a few seconds, they only major, mega scale force capable of acting on the entire structures at the same time was gravity, which would attempt to pull them straight down, as gravity is known to do. The buildings took about 8-9 seconds past computed free fall speed, so that claim is DOA to any serious observer.
Who cares? Does he or his comments change the fact that skyscrappers simply CAN NOT fall into their own footprint at close to free fall speed?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#302. To: buckeroo (#300)
The fact that they had their cameras setup BEFORE the first impact, high fived each other and lit their Bics in celebration after the planes struck the towers, and tried to setup the blame on Palestinians by phoning in a bomb scare at the Holland Tunnel, and being caught with explosives in their van once their plan backfired, I'd say there's something there. It's even more informative that they were released after high level "officials" worked on their behalf.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#303. To: FormerLurker (#302)
Why were they let "off the hook" then?
The fact that they had their cameras setup BEFORE the first impact, high fived each other and lit their Bics in celebration after the planes struck the towers, and tried to setup the blame on Palestinians by phoning in a bomb scare at the Holland Tunnel, and being caught with explosives in their van once their plan backfired, I'd say there's something there.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#304. To: buckeroo (#285)
Here again buckie you show your ignorance and susceptibility for accepting PsyOps as true. Oh, it is Palestinians cheering, but the problem is out of context spin put on it. There have also been a couple of debates as to the source of the footage i.e., whether it is Palestinians cheering the invasion of Kuwait or at a Soccer Match. The prime source for debunking that is the now discredited Snopes - which has a Democrat/Israeli bias. However it IS real footage - just not of ALL Palestinians cheering the 911 attack, but of SOME Palestinians cheering. Not that I would blame them if they did given that the U.S. is the prime provider for the weaponry the Israhellis use to murder their children and shoot farmers in their fields. Every time a round lands in a Palestinian child it might as well have "made in the U.S.A. stamped on it. Likely it was pushed in part because of the 5 Dancing Israeli's and Netanyahu's comment that the attack was "good for Israel". More planted disinformation to support the cover legend for the PsyOp and distract people from other telling information. Tell me buckie, are you as upset by the Cheering Israelis filming the event, which they had to have known about in advance to be set up to film it, as you are over a few Palestinians cheering their oppressor's sponsor getting comeuppance? Look at it from their point of view. That doesn't mean you have to agree with it, but walk a mile in their moccasins.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#305. To: AGAviator (#301)
I bet you never even took high school physics did you. An object ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance. If a corner of the floors below the upper section had started to buckle and give way, the top of the tower would have tumbled and slid off the lower structure in that direction. As far as the top of the structure falling STRAIGHT DOWN (the path of GREATEST RESISTANCE), it would have taken more than 1 second to demolish all of the floors below the damaged section, which is the time it took since it only took about 1 extra second for the top of the building to hit the ground than if it had fallen through thin air. Yeah right, keep believing that faery tale if it makes you happy, just don't go killing innocent people over it. Oh that's right, we have to go "kill them there" so that we won't have to "fight them here". What utter insanity.
The buildings fell into their own footprints because absent a sideways pushing/pulling force
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#306. To: buckeroo (#303)
Go ask Cheney.
Why were they let "off the hook" then?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#307. To: Original_Intent, **4um PSY-OP Club** (#304)
I have made the BIG_TIME!
Here again buckie you show your ignorance and susceptibility for accepting PsyOps as true.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#308. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, all (#274)
My ass. He's still playing golf and walking around with no problems at all. You paint him as some senile old geriatric, where he's still very much in form for his age. Why do you think he would give a damn about some fucked upped plot to kill and maim thousands of innocent Americans? Are you daft? Sense of duty to his clan, money, power, greed. Hell! My Grandfather didn't even retire till he was 85 - said the 12 hour days were getting a "little long". In his 90's he was still playing winning Poker and skinning geezers 20 years his junior. Age is relative. some people are old at 60 and some are young at 90.
George Herbert Walker Bush was born on June 12, 1924. When September 11, 2001 occurred .... that would have made him 75 years old. He could hardly rock in a chair without the hand of his momma (err ... wife ... Barbara) behind him.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#309. To: FormerLurker (#306)
Where was he for five months? Golfing? Playing Canasta? Eating steak and potatoes increasing his cholesterol while planning his heart valve for yesterday?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#310. To: buckeroo (#309)
Wasn't keeping tabs on his whereabouts, sorry. Thing is, the local FBI were holding them on REALLY good reasons, it was "higher authority" who eventually cut them loose.
Where was he for five months? Golfing? Playing Canasta? Eating steak and potatoes increasing his cholesterol while planning his heart valve for yesterday?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#311. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#305) (Edited)
Due to the unique central column and "tube in a tube" design of the WTC towers, its building floors were 95% air, which makes down the path of least resistance except for getting rid of some air pockets equally in all directions. This means gravity acting on building components will pull the the building floors and walls straight down. Or as Thomas Eager put it, Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation It has been suggested that it was fortunate that the WTC did not tip over onto other buildings surrounding the area. There are several points that should be made. First, the building is not solid; it is 95 percent air and, hence, can implode onto itself. Second, there is no lateral load, even the impact of a speeding aircraft, which is sufficient to move the center of gravity one hundred feet to the side such that it is not within the base footprint of the structure. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. To summarize all of these points, a 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down. pnwed. Your high school grade in Physics is "F," clown.
I bet you never even took high school physics did you. An object ALWAYS takes the path of least resistance
If it had been free fall, with no restraint, the collapse would have only taken eight seconds and would have impacted at 300 km/h.1
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#312. To: FormerLurker (#310)
I see. And the CIA (whose charter is ALL about international subterfuge one way or another) had nothing to do with it? I guess you don't remember how fucked-upped the CIA's substantial reports on Iraq's WMD was, correct? Man .... get off of it. This nation is run by clowns voted into office by morons looking for a handout. And the people that have a job to do don't know their asses from a hole in the ground (to use a popular cliché)beyond what they were taught in college and yet you think ANYONE in America is running some sort of clandestine operation/tyranny against Americans? To do so, takes brains .... otherwise known as intellectual capability. The best most bureaucrats can come up with is drool on their own sheepskins as they fell asleep in class for four years.
Thing is, the local FBI were holding them on REALLY good reasons, it was "higher authority" who eventually cut them loose.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#313. To: buckeroo (#312)
The CIA was ordered to rewrite their reports, because they didn't say what Cheney wanted them to say. In fact, he STILL wasn't satisified and had Rumsfeld create his own intel agency, the Office of Special Plans, which wrote the sort of reports that Cheney wanted to see.
I guess you don't remember how fucked-upped the CIA's substantial reports on Iraq's WMD was, correct?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#314. To: AGAviator (#311)
You imbecile, those towers held and supported the entire weight of the structure, they weren't just a deck of cards like you uneducated fools imagine them to be. If they were as fragile as you claim, they would never have supported their own weight, and would have fallen over with the first slight gust of wind. Third, given the near free-fall collapse, there was insufficient time for portions to attain significant lateral velocity. Huh? Is this guy so fucking stupid he never watched the actual collapse where the majority of the building was pulverized into dust and ejected laterally? Keep believing your kook doctors pal, I'm sure they'll fix you up good.
Due to the unique central column and "tube in a tube" design of the WTC towers, its building floors were 95% air, which makes down the path of least resistance except for getting rid of some air pockets equally in all directions.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#315. To: AGAviator (#311) (Edited)
Your high school grade in Physics is "F," clown. You "pnwed" yourself, displaying to everyone here how stupid and gullible you are. The floors did NOT pancake, and there is NO evidence that they did. They were PULVERIZED into dust, such that the majority of the kinetic energy was spent doing so, where there would NOT have been sufficient energy to collapse the undamaged section of the towers, at LEAST not at free fall velocity. People such as you depend on the fact Americans are some of the dumbest people on Earth in terms of math and science these days in comparison to other industrialized nations.
pnwed.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#316. To: FormerLurker (#313) (Edited)
So what happened to Paul Wolfowitz? He later got the fuck out of the Defense Department under Donny Rumsfeld (both at the Pentagon on 9/11 BTW) and was selected by that dumbshit GWBush to head the WorldBank. Why did Wolfowitz quit the Defense Department? He fucked-upped his make-believe slogan.... "the Iraqi's [shall] be throwing flowers at the feet of our troops in Iraq." Wolfowitz later resigned the WB because he was a literal FUCKUP giving untold hundreds of thousands to his prostitutes, whom he worked with.
Office of Special Plans
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#317. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#315) (Edited)
I just finished quoting Thomas Eager, Full Professor, full professor PhD of Materials Science and Engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who explicitly says, Post your CV. Let's see which of the two of you is one of the "dumbest people on Earth in terms of math and science these days," you silly little dickwad. pwned again.
People such as you depend on the fact Americans are some of the dumbest people on Earth in terms of math and science
A 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down..
Eager happens to have 14 patents and over 200 real "peer-reviewed publications."
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#318. To: buckeroo (#316)
Yup, Wolfowitz went from one failure to another. It's all on the record.
Wolfowitz later resigned the WB because he was a literal FUCKUP giving untold hundreds of thousands to his prostitutes, whom he worked with.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#319. To: AGAviator (#317)
How much money does he get from federal grants? BTW, technology is spelt technology, not tecchololoy. Did you graduate elementary school?
I just finished quoting Thomas Eager, Full Professor, full professor PhD of Materials Science and Engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Tecchololgy, who explicitly says,
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#320. To: AGAviator (#318)
No question about it. And some of these posters believe in the capability of US government to plan and execute tyranny? Man, I would rather believe in the Easter bunny working on a Sunday morning delivering chocolate eggs for the good little kiddies.
Yup, Wolfowitz went from one failure to another. It's all on the record.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#321. To: buckeroo (#316)
Heading the World Bank was his reward, where he could pull the strings that he needed to pull to satisy both himself AND his master's wishes.
So what happened to Paul Wolfowitz? He later got the fuck out of the Defense Department under Donny Rumsfeld (both at the Pentagon on 9/11 BTW) and was selected by that dumbshit GWBush to head the WorldBank. Why did Wolfowitz quit the Defense Department?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#322. To: buckeroo (#320)
I bet you do. You believe in other impossible stories, so why not that one as well...
I would rather believe in the Easter bunny working on a Sunday morning delivering chocolate eggs for the good little kiddies.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#323. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, all (#283)
And how many people and time did it take to wire and manage the wiring of the 3 WTC structures, among the largest buildings in the world, with anywhere from 10 to 100 tons of nanothermate per Niels Harritt, k00k emeritus? Let's see, you've never met Niels Harrit, don't know Niels Harrit and at no time have you disproven his science. And yet you feel qualified to personally attack him, while at no time have you ever refuted him. Of course that seems about par for you, as you seem to rely more on nasty comments and personal attacks than anything else. Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation 14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10. 4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues. While it would be nice to know when and how the demolition charges were placed it is not necessary to know that to observe the manner in which the buildings collapsed conforms in all important particulars to a controlled demolition. To demand a complete solution is nothing more than a disinformation tactic to divert from the observed events and their similarity to a controlled demolition. Unsupported assertion. Workers were in fact prevented from examining the debris and there was NO Forensic Engineering Examination of the debris. Mayor Ghouliani specifically forbade the taking of any "unauthorized" photographs and used security guards to enforce the edict. The wreckage, particularly the structural steel, was kept under armed guard until it was shipped quickly out of the country before an Engineering Forensics Examination could be made, conveniently, to China. And the debris was sold to China at sub-market rates of $120 a ton when the Market rate, at that time, was $150 per ton. Demolition Access to the WTC Towers: Part Four – Cleanup Excerpt: The recycling of the most important steel evidence was done in a hurry, as indicated by the US House Committee on Science report mentioned earlier. It was done so fast, in fact, that the City took much less than market value for the scrap metal. At the time, steel scrap was selling for $150 per ton, but those in charge of the WTC cleanup took just $120 per ton for the WTC steel. 75 It’s not difficult to see that the $9 million lost in that transaction would have been useful to the many 9/11 first responders who have since become sick and are dying from their exposure to toxins at Ground Zero. ..." I am greatly amused. You keep repeating over and over again that Osama Ben Forgotten was a scary scary bad man. Granted. He was a scary scary bad man who worked for the CIA as a Contract Agent. Something you keep conveniently forgetting. Imagine that. You forgetting to mention that the scary scary guerrilla leader worked for U.S. Intelligence despite having been frequently reminded of that FACT. (Quick note: I know vocabulary is not your bag but guerrilla is spelled with two "r's".) Now where was I? Oh, yeah you keeping repeating the propaganda tag lines without ever showing how Osama Ben Goldstein had access to NORAD, was able to control the clean up at Ground Zero, hired the Dancing Israelis to film his great achievment, or anything else other than huffing and puffing that he did. And all that despite the fact that the FBI does not list 911 on his "Most Wanted" Flyer. Imagine that. The FBI does not list 911 as one of Osama Ben Goldstein's great achievements. I think you should write them a stern letter and let them know.
You two act as if the ENTIRE body of government would have to have known about the operation, whereas only a handful of top people around the country would have to have known
Along the setting up a complex undetactable advanced detonation system of which not a single shred has ever been found or photographed at any of the NYC crash sites?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#324. To: AGAviator (#317)
I bet you and your goon squad would just that wouldn't you, cumbreath.
Post your CV. Let's see which of the two of you is one of the "dumbest people on Earth in terms of math and science these days," you silly little dickwad
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#325. To: AGAviator (#317)
If there is nothing in its way. But on 9/11 most of that 500,000 ton structure was in the way. The proven laws of physics aren't lying, those buildings were brought down with planted explosives.
A 500,000 t structure has too much inertia to fall in any direction other than nearly straight down..
God is always good!
#326. To: FormerLurker (#322)
Name them ... even if you can't link 'em.
You believe in other impossible stories
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#327. To: FormerLurker (#324) (Edited)
Your silly little attempts to attack me instead of my post contents shows you for the mentally bankrupt denying forumtroll you are. However even if you were to totally invalidate me, you wouldn't have advanced proof of your own silly cause in the slightest, with the result being you and your fellowk00ks would be in a "we don't really know what happened" scenario. Get some mental help loser. Your brain needs to clear out all the garbage k00ksite word dump clutter it's holding onto.
I bet you and your goon squad would just that
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#328. To: Original_Intent (#323)
There. Fixed it.
And all that despite the fact that the FBI does not list 911 on his "Most Wanted" Flyer. Imagine that. The FBI does not list 911 as one of Osama Ben Goldstein's great achievements. I think you should write them a stern letter and
let them know rebuke them.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#329. To: Original_Intent (#323)
Yes, OBL was not just a scary or bad man, he was the epitome of EVIL. Now, just because someone works for the CIA (from time to time) doesn't mean that the CIA has any "brains." Have you heard about that Iranian nuclear scientist paid $5M by the CIA .... for publick knowledge? Yeah, the guy is going home to Iran, in a hero's welcome!
I am greatly amused. You keep repeating over and over again that Osama Ben Forgotten was a scary scary bad man. Granted. He was a scary scary bad man who worked for the CIA as a Contract Agent.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#330. To: RickyJ (#325) (Edited)
Tell it to Eager. He said because of 500,000 tons of inertia, there was no way for the WTC towers to go except down and into the building footprint.
If there is nothing in its way. But on 9/11 most of that 500,000 ton structure was in the way
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#331. To: buckeroo (#326) (Edited)
A) A skyscraper can FALL into its own footprint at near free fall velocity without using controlled explosives. Did I miss anything?
Name them ... even if you can't link 'em.
B) 19 mad arabs, who hated us for our freedoms, twarted all US intelligence agencies, plotted and executed simultaneous aerial attacks upon key US landmarks, including the hub of the US financial district in New York, and the hub of the US military in Washington DC, while evading US defenses for over an hour. Oh, and they also survived the crashes and are alive and well.
C) An inept student pilot who couldn't fly a single engine Cessna was able to commandeer and navigate a large heavy multi-engine commercial airliner, plotting a course from no specific point over Ohio to Washington DC at 35,000 feet, descend and turn the aircraft similar to a military fighter jet, fly the aircraft at treetop level for about a mile at over 400 mph, and defy the laws of physics and aerodynamics by bringing the aircraft down to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph and impacting the Pentagon dead-on.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#332. To: AGAviator (#330)
The 500,000 tons of inertia was RESISTING the falling section, genius.
He said because of 500,000 tons of inertia, there was no way for the WTC towers to go except down and into the building footprint.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#333. To: AGAviator (#327)
It's obvious that you've pulled out all stops and are spewing the most idiotic bullshit there is on the net, where a 110 story building is nothing but a huge deck of cards waiting for the slightest breeze to make it all fall down. Stop projecting your faults.
Get some mental help loser. Your brain needs to clear out all the garbage k00ksite word dump clutter it's holding onto.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#334. To: FormerLurker (#331)
True. False. These terrorists loved American freedoms. In fact, prior to 9/11 several were sited at titty bars, getting drunk and having all kinds of porno .... they were just like the good 'ol boys you may know. Never-the-less, they hated America because of support for Israel and the increasing problems in Palestine. True. Got anymore?
A) A skyscraper can FALL into its own footprint at near free fall velocity without using controlled explosives.
B) 19 mad arabs, who hated us for our freedoms, twarted all US intelligence agencies, plotted and executed simultaneous aerial attacks upon key US landmarks, including the hub of the US financial district in New York, and the hub of the US military in Washington DC, while evading US defenses for over an hour. Oh, and they also survived the crashes and are alive and well.
C) An inept student pilot who couldn't fly a single engine Cessna was able to commandeer and navigate a large heavy multi-engine commercial airliner, plotting a course from no specific point over Ohio to Washington DC at 35,000 feet, descend and turn the aircraft similar to a military fighter jet, fly the aircraft at treetop level for about a mile at over 400 mph, and defy the laws of physics and aerodynamics by bring the aircraft down to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph and impact the Pentagon dead-on.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#335. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#332) (Edited)
But the structure, itself, was largely aire. You act as though it was a solid mass ball capable of going anywhere ... I assume you think it [edit: the towers] were teetering before the collisions and as a result of the collision it should have swayed in the vector of the impact.
The 500,000 tons of inertia was RESISTING the falling section, genius.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#336. To: buckeroo (#334)
You are a piece of work buckeroo. Like I said, you more than likely believe in the Easter Bunny as well.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#337. To: buckeroo, Former Lurker, Original_Intent (#334)
True. You really believe that? If you do then I think you have made the case that there is no reason for anyone to post anything to you more than a cartoon or a music video or something. Anyone who believes stupid $#it like that never uses their head.
C) An inept student pilot who couldn't fly a single engine Cessna was able to commandeer and navigate a large heavy multi-engine commercial airliner, plotting a course from no specific point over Ohio to Washington DC at 35,000 feet, descend and turn the aircraft similar to a military fighter jet, fly the aircraft at treetop level for about a mile at over 400 mph, and defy the laws of physics and aerodynamics by bring the aircraft down to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph and impact the Pentagon dead-on.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#338. To: FormerLurker (#319)
A lot. I don't have a number handy any more but likely most of his research is federally funded. MIT is notorious for its connections to CIA and if you look at Eager's picture he is about greasiest looking toad you ever saw. Incidentally Mad Max the anonymous engineer who did the "How Hot Did The World Trade Center Get" analysis did one on Eager's propaganda piece that was aired on PBS's "NOVA" but it seems to have disappeared off of the net. I have spent the last half hour looking but it seems to have been "memory holed". I did find his piece on the evidence for explosives: portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/07/268827.shtml
How much money does he get from federal grants?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#339. To: James Deffenbach (#337)
Yes I do. GWBush and his immediate predecessor WClinton were informed through the daily briefings about increasing hostile operations evolving in the USA. In fact, there were numerous FBI reports from various field offices that supported the contentions to include the flight training prior to 9/11/01. And yes, the Israeli Mossad had the same data and even their own original data. So what.... none of the assholes in our government did anything. They are too busy having a good time instead of doing their jobs.
You really believe that?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#340. To: Original_Intent (#338)
If you can't support your own contentions with FACTS, don't bring up. You sound like a ridiculous political parrot, something the MSM is fantastick to present to the publick news.
A lot. I don't have a number handy any more but likely most of his research is federally funded.
I don't have a number handy any more but likely...
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#341. To: buckeroo (#339)
None of which makes someone who is incapable---ineffincapable, buck!--of flying a CESSNA, capable of flying a heavy commercial airliner and fly them like an ace pilot in a stunt plane. The very idea is ridiculous beyond belief and anyone who would believe such a thing is beyond gullible and naive.
GWBush and his immediate predecessor WClinton were informed through the daily briefings about increasing hostile operations evolving in the USA. In fact, there were numerous FBI reports from various field offices that supported the contentions to include the flight training prior to 9/11/01.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#342. To: James Deffenbach (#328)
I stand corrected. :-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#343. To: Original_Intent (#342)
LOL! See to it that it doesn't happen again and you can be let off with a warning.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#344. To: buckeroo (#340)
Eat me. Most of the research at MIT is federally funded. They are so tight with the FedGov that they might need a crowbar to separate them. Grants, as such, are generally not available on the Internet. However, one can make inferences based on what one knows. So, sue me.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#345. To: James Deffenbach (#343)
I feel soooooooooo chastened. ;-(
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#346. To: buckeroo (#335) (Edited)
There was a ALSO a large air to mass ratio in the aircraft, where the aircraft should have folded up like a soda can when it hit the structure due to the inertia of the structure versus the inertia of the plane. An analogy is throwing an egg at a brick wall, the egg will lose everytime. There were heavy steel columns running the entire vertical lengths of the towers, as well has a heavy steel core. The floors were made of steel and concrete. If anything, if the floors had "pancaked" the rest of the structure should have remained standing, or the outer walls falling apart outwards like an embrella, with the center core remaining in place. You could say ANY building has more air than it has mass, yet how many other buildings fall into their own footprint if the upper section is damaged? The towers were similar yet STRONGER than a hollow steel light pole (as they not only had a center core, but had reinforced concrete floors laterally between the inner core and outer shell), where just because you cut the top off with a saw, it doesn't make the bottom section fall down. As far as sway, the towers ALWAYS swayed on the upper floors during heavy gusts of wind, and DID sway when impacted by the aircraft that morning. Lightpoles ALSO sway in heavy winds, but if anything they fall OVER if the wind becomes too great, they don't crush themselves downwards into dust.
But the structure, itself, was largely aire. You act as though it was a solid mass ball capable of going anywhere ... I assume you think it was teetering before the collisions and as a result of the collision it should have swayed in the vector of the impact.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#347. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach (#345)
I feel soooooooooo chastened. ;-(
Name calling is juvenile.
#348. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent (#347)
Well, it was for his own good. He'll thank me one of these days.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#349. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#341)
But, Hanjour didn't fly it. He fucked upped whatever plan he had by attempting to control the craft; flying a craft as AGAviator has suggested means he could competently take-off and land the craft that he was trained for. I provided a link way up @post#171 that you can click on for both REAL and simulated animations of FLT77. He couldn't hit .... and did minor damage when you consider what could have happened with a competent pilot at the helm.
None of which makes someone who is incapable---ineffincapable, buck!--of flying a CESSNA, capable of flying a heavy commercial airliner and fly them like an ace pilot in a stunt plane. The very idea is ridiculous beyond belief and anyone who would believe such a thing is beyond gullible and naive.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#350. To: AGAviator (#330) (Edited)
I don't know who he is. Is he your boss? I have studied this for a long time. I didn't reach my conclusion lightly cause I didn't want to believe it. But I can't ignore facts, I never have been able to. I don't need a so-called "expert" to tell me how physics work, I know it very well.
Tell it to Eager.
God is always good!
#351. To: Original_Intent (#344)
And? Your earlier post @post#319 was some sort of idiotic blather that persuades me? ROTFL
Most of the research at MIT is federally funded. They are so tight with the FedGov that they might need a crowbar to separate them.
I don't have a number handy any more but likely...
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#352. To: buckeroo (#349)
The gubmint said he did, didn't they? And you believe their story, right? Or are you schizo with several personalities, each of them believing a different thing depending on what day it is?
But, Hanjour didn't fly it.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#353. To: buckeroo (#349)
Are you saying that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon? SOMETHING did, and whatever it was hit it DEAD ON. However, not many, if ANY, professional pilots could have accomplished that with a 757 or any other large heavy aircraft. You see, it's pretty much physically impossible to fly less than 60 feet off the ground with a 757 at over 400 mph due to ground effect, where we are to believe an inexperienced student pilot who couldn't fly a Cessna accomplished not only that, but he flew down to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph. IF a REAL terrorist had hijacked the plane over Washington, he wouldn't have flown down to the deck and flown it into the wall of the building, not only because it's impossible, but it would be MUCH easier and MUCH more effective to simply dive down into the ROOF of the Pentagon, spreading fuel over much if not all of the structure, and enveloping the entire building in flames.
He couldn't hit .... and did minor damage when you consider what could have happened with a competent pilot at the helm.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#354. To: FormerLurker (#332)
Tell it to Prof. Eager. And not once the upper floors started moving past the point where the "tube inside a tube" design was unable to support the mass and the momentum of the pancaking higher floors. You're working on an F minus.
The 500,000 tons of inertia was RESISTING the falling section, genius.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#355. To: James Deffenbach (#352)
That is publick released knowdge of a "term" to simplify for the uneducated masses the challenge of being at the helm. Of course, YOU believe Hanjour intentionally flew FLT77 into the side of the Pentagon, correct?
The gubmint said he did, didn't they?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#356. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach, AGAviator, Original_Intent (#349)
He flew it with military precision according to experienced air traffic controllers at Dulles International Airport. In fact they said they thought it was one of our military aircraft protecting the skies of Washington by the way it flew. But, Hanjour didn't fly it. He fucked upped whatever plan he had by attempting to control the craft
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#357. To: buckeroo, turtle (#329) (Edited)
How about that supposed high level defector from al Queda by way of Jordan late 2009 who acted like he had so much intel, he got 7 CIA people into the same room where they all got killed in one attack?
Have you heard about that Iranian nuclear scientist paid $5M by the CIA .... for publick knowledge? Yeah, the guy is going home to Iran, in a hero's welcome!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#358. To: FormerLurker (#353)
Have you already forgotten the clip I provided on this thread @post#171? I think so.
Are you saying that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#359. To: FormerLurker (#333) (Edited)
Show me your proof of your theory, with specific facts, documentation, and independently corroboratable evidence. Tearing alternative and more fact- based theories down with arm waving and selective quoting does not score any points on your behalf.
Stop projecting your faults.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#360. To: buckeroo (#355)
I don't believe that anyone who is not capable of flying a little Cessna is capable of performing stunt moves with a big commercial airliner, stunt moves that would take an experienced pilot and most likely a fighter plane to perform.
Of course, YOU believe Hanjour intentionally flew FLT77 into the side of the Pentagon, correct?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#361. To: AGAviator (#354)
You're working on an F minus. Where is the evidence of that happening? There is none. IF there was structural degradation due to heat, it would NOT have been uniform, and the top of the tower would have sagged to one side, causing huge lateral forces to snap any weakened sections, then broken off, sliding downwards on an angle out away from the structure. Your pal's pancake theory doesn't explain what happened to the steel core either, nor the outer steel columns. The entire steel core should have remained standing if some floors had pancaked, yet the steel core disintegrated into dust. Besides, the pancake theory only works if the floors remained somewhat intact. The structure turned to dust as it collapsed, so there WAS no pancaking involved.
And not once the upper floors started moving past the point where the "tube inside a tube" design was unable to support the mass and the momentum of the pancaking higher floors.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#362. To: FormerLurker (#356)
Oh BS..... he had no such background to withstand the G forces other than shouting "ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!" all the way. He had no control of the plane .... I wager his co-terrorists shit their pants during that maneuver looking forward to their virgins in paradise. And the passengers? They either died of a heart attack and/or shit their britches before impact.
He flew it with military precision according to experienced air traffic controllers at Dulles International Airport.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#363. To: buckeroo (#358)
Haven't forgotten it, it simply represents the official explanation of what happened. Thing is, it's physically impossible for a 757 to behave like that at 530 mph due to ground effect.
Have you already forgotten the clip I provided on this thread @post#171? I think so.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#364. To: buckeroo (#362)
You are having fun here aren't you buck. You just like to act ridiculous and side with shillsters in order to get people riled up. You are a laugh a minute.
Oh BS..... he had no such background to withstand the G forces other than shouting
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#365. To: James Deffenbach (#360)
Hanjour did not competently steer the craft is the point. He was in over his head. The outcome is proof because if Hanjour was competent he WOULD HAVE HIT THE FUCKING WHITE HOUSE OR THE INNER SANCTUM OF THE PENTAGON... not perform some stunt maneuver on his way to Allah for you to talk about 9 years later.
I don't believe that anyone who is not capable of flying a little Cessna is capable of performing stunt moves with a big commercial airliner, stunt moves that would take an experienced pilot and most likely a fighter plane to perform.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#366. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#350) (Edited)
Then refute the three physics points cited by Eager with specific references and calculations. QED.
to. I don't need a so-called "expert" to tell me how physics work, I know it very well.
(1) All building floors were 95% air, so downward would be the preferred direction of any floor collapses,
(2) There is no 500,000 ton force sufficient to displace the center of gravity of a 500,000 ton structure over 100 feet off center to make the building fall outside of its footprint, and
(3) Gien the building 500,000 tons of inertia, and the absence of quickly reacting and massive forces operating in anything besides the downward direction, explain how the building could possibly to anywhere but into its uncluttered footprint.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#367. To: AGAviator (#359)
I'm not going to explain something with math to someone who can't understand basic concepts or how to do simple arithmetic.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#368. To: AGAviator (#366)
There were heavy vertical steel columns, and a heavy vertical steel core, idiot. The structure needs to hold up AT LEAST it's own weight, where you and your pal are trying to say any sort of added vertical force is going to crush the building as if it were made of egg shells. It's sad that there are people stupid enough to believe that.
All building floors were 95% air, so downward would be the preferred direction of any floor collapses,
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#369. To: buckeroo (#365)
That's only IF Hanjour was actually flying that plane, which any rational person would see he COULD NOT and DID NOT. The aircraft claimed to be Flight 77 did what was intended for it to do by those who executed the attacks.
The outcome is proof because if Hanjour was competent he WOULD HAVE HIT THE FUCKING WHITE HOUSE OR THE INNER SANCTUM OF THE PENTAGON
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#370. To: FormerLurker (#363)
There is no such way as to chipping away at this conspiracy, is there? OK...... yet, just a moment ago you created a post suggesting @post#353.... What is the matter, now? Losing your own memory? I have heard there are types of mental dymensia, 1) loss of longterm memory and 2) loss of shortterm memory. Please don't be in either one of these categories ... I have known you you too long in time, my friend.
Haven't forgotten it[the clip @post#171, this thread], it simply represents the official explanation of what happened.
Are you saying that Flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#371. To: FormerLurker (#364)
Are you quite sure it's an act?
You just like to act ridiculous
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#372. To: buckeroo (#365)
Click on the link Former Lurker provided up thread just a bit: Hani Hanjour and Flight 77's Unexplained Expert Maneuvers Experienced air traffic controllers couldn't believe the maneuvers being performed and thought it was a military jet with an experienced pilot.
Hanjour did not competently steer the craft is the point.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#373. To: FormerLurker (#369)
OK ... fuck Hanjour.... let's pretend it was the TWOOFER_Faerie™ The flight plan wasn't executed with any precision.
That's only IF Hanjour was actually flying that plane
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#374. To: AGAviator (#366)
It takes a real retard to ask that question. The EARTH and the structure itself is where the INERTIA was, the TOP part of the tower had NOWHERE near that much weight as it was the top 30 floors or so of a 110 story structure, and the 500,000 tons was the weight of the ENTIRE FUCKING BUILDING.
Gien the building 500,000 tons of inertia, and the absence of quickly reacting and massive forces operating in anything besides the downward direction, explain how the building could possibly to anywhere but into its uncluttered footprint.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#375. To: James Deffenbach (#371)
I'm really starting to wonder.
Are you quite sure it's an act?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#376. To: buckeroo (#370)
You said that Hanjour didn't hit the Pentagon in one of your posts. I agree, he wasn't flying it, and more than likely it wasn't Flight 77 either. There's no way a 757 could actually fly like that at ground level at 530 mph, and that's the point I've been making all along.
OK...... yet, just a moment ago you created a post suggesting @post#353....
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#377. To: James Deffenbach (#372)
I can explain his maneuvers that no one else can. Hanjour was shitting in his pants as he came up to his final approach and lost his confidence at the last minute and tried to land the fucking plane to save his life. He couldn't even do that.... but off to paradise he went. Meanwhile, here on the Internet some of you folks believe Hanjour (or whomever attempted to control that craft) was competent.
Hani Hanjour and Flight 77's Unexplained Expert Maneuvers
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#378. To: farmfriend (#347)
Well, not quite that chastened. LOL!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#379. To: Original_Intent (#378)
Damn! Well then can you chasten me?
Well, not quite that chastened. LOL!
Name calling is juvenile.
#380. To: FormerLurker (#376)
Lets get this conspiracy thread topic out of the way ... shall we? Your thread title is about AMA Flight 77 on September 11, 2001 .... Is this the same flight? Or is this some sort of Easter bunny flight delivering chocolate Easter eggs to all the good littl' boys & girls on an early schedule?
more than likely it wasn't Flight 77 either.
At 8:20 AM, Flight 77 took off from Dulles International Airport, 10 minutes after its scheduled departure time. At 8:46, Flight 77 veered severely off course. At 8:50, the last radio communication was made from the pilots and air traffic control. At 8:56, the jet's transponder was shut off. The pilots' last transmission was "ah direct FALMOUTH American seventy seven thanks." No radio communications from the flight indicated distress.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#381. To: AGAviator (#366)
Then refute the three physics points cited by Eager with specific references and calculations. (1) All building floors were 95% air, so downward would be the preferred direction of any floor collapses, (2) There is no 500,000 ton force sufficient to displace the center of gravity of a 500,000 ton structure over 100 feet off center to make the building fall outside of its footprint, and (3) Gien the building 500,000 tons of inertia, and the absence of quickly reacting and massive forces operating in anything besides the downward direction, explain how the building could possibly to anywhere but into its uncluttered footprint. QED. QED my little redskinned behind. In a true catastrophic failure it will occur at one point in the structure whether a corner or a center of a wall. It will not occur simultaneously in 360 degrees. Just as Eager's earlier whitewash for NOVA he includes a couple of hidden assumptions and/or outright misleading points. For example in the NOVA piece, long since shredded to the point Eager will not talk about it, he used animations showing the floor struts bare and underneath the floors when in reality they are imbedded in foamed concrete. Here as well we have sleight of hand. Since there will, in a normal catastrophic failure be a first failure point the collapse of the building will begin at that point. As the side crumbles the rest of the structure, still relatively intact, will act as a lever causing the collapsing section to cantilever down, thus altering the center of gravity of the section above, thus it will pivot down throwing the center of gravity further out thus causing the section to either slump or continue rotating outward causing the section to eventually break off and tumble. We can see that happening on one of the towers in the videos, but note that what happens is as it rotates out and is about to tumble over the entire support structure underneath collapses arresting the tumble (the lever is gone) and it then drops straight down on top of the lower structure collapsing underneath it. For Professor Eager's "explanation" to work the collapse of the building has to begin uniformly, symmetrically, in 360 degrees at the same moment in time. The only way that happens is if you remove the support structure all at once, and the only way that happens is with explosives. As listed on the Website of Archetects and Engineers for 911 Truth (who are every bit as qualified as the the lone government grant gobbling shill Eager): As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives: 1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e. 1. Slow onset with large visible deformationsto. I don't need a so-called "expert" to tell me how physics work, I know it very well.
2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction
4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally
6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
8. 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
9. Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front
10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
11. Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
13. Evidence of explosives found in dust samples
14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire
2. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
3. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
4. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#382. To: farmfriend (#379)
Damn! Well then can you chasten me? Well, not quite that chastened. LOL!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#383. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#374)
It takes a real retard to ask that question. The EARTH and the structure itself is where the INERTIA was, the TOP part of the tower had NOWHERE near that much weight as it was the top 30 floors or so of a 110 story structure, and the 500,000 tons was the weight of the ENTIRE FUCKING BUILDING. Oh, he's not one to let reality stand in the way of defending the "Official Conspiracy Theory™".
Gien the building 500,000 tons of inertia, and the absence of quickly reacting and massive forces operating in anything besides the downward direction, explain how the building could possibly to anywhere but into its uncluttered footprint.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#384. To: Original_Intent (#382)
Oooo a new smilie too. cool!
Name calling is juvenile.
#385. To: buckeroo (#380)
It was the same flight, but first off, the FDR data indicates no hijacking took place since the cockpit door never opened during flight. Secondly, it is debatable whether or not the data is even from Flight 77 to begin with, but that is what the government claims it is. Thing is, it's obvious your idea of what happened is TOTALLY off base, and is so twisted and laughable that it's hard to type a polite response. The aircraft that is claimed to be Flight 77 that showed up over Washington skies that morning executed manuevers that seasoned pilots would have had a difficult time of performing with a 757, and the final approach down to an altitude of 20 feet off the deck is pretty much physically impossible at 530 mph.
Is this the same flight?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#386. To: buckeroo (#377)
No buck. That is NOT what we have been trying (without any success it seems) to tell you. He was not competent. He could not fly a Cessna. Should we type slower, do you think that would help?
He couldn't even do that.... but off to paradise he went. Meanwhile, here on the Internet some of you folks believe Hanjour (or whomever attempted to control that craft) was competent.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#387. To: James Deffenbach (#386)
Oooooooooo! That has to have left a mark.
Should we type slower, do you think that would help?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#388. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#385)
WHOA there, pardner... Didn't you just question AMA Flight 77 as being unreal @post#376 of your own thread? Who cares. Shit happens and all things made by man fail... especially when you need those same devices at the moment of truth. I understand your point. The issue *IS* Hanjour was not an experienced pilot with any training or capability of and about flying a 757... you know this, EVERYONE knows this. The terrorist was just lucky to knock out the five street lamps (and a taxicab) beyond slamming into a sidewall of the Pentagon. Remember, some 60 people died aboard Flight 77 and as I remember 150 military staff died in the Pentagon. Don't you think that was enough damage for an excited, stupid terrorist for one day?
It was the same flight, but first off,
the FDR data indicates no hijacking took place since the cockpit door never opened during flight. Secondly, it is debatable whether or not the data is even from Flight 77 to begin with, but that is what the government claims it is.
Thing is, it's obvious your idea of what happened is TOTALLY off base, and is so twisted and laughable that it's hard to type a polite response. The aircraft that is claimed to be Flight 77 that showed up over Washington skies that morning executed manuevers that seasoned pilots would have had a difficult time of performing with a 757, and the final approach down to an altitude of 20 feet off the deck is pretty much physically impossible at 530 mph.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#389. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#387)
Well yeah, if he was sentient it would. But I am afraid he has been drinking the government KOOK AID too long and it has messed up his mind. They say that KOOK AID and Sterno don't mix too well.
Oooooooooo! That has to have left a mark.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#390. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#389)
Well yeah, if he was sentient it would. But I am afraid he has been drinking the government KOOK AID too long and it has messed up his mind. They say that KOOK AID and Sterno don't mix too well. Sort of a hoxic tighball eh?
Oooooooooo! That has to have left a mark.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#391. To: James Deffenbach (#386)
Here is what Hanjour performed while panicking at the last moment ..... No talent was required on a nice day from Dulles International Airport to the Pentagon.
He was not competent. He could not fly a Cessna. Should we type slower, do you think that would help?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#392. To: farmfriend (#384)
MY pleasure.
Oooo a new smilie too. cool!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#393. To: buckeroo (#391)
And stop calling me Surely.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#394. To: Original_Intent (#390)
Yeah, something like that.
Sort of a hoxic tighball eh?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#395. To: Original_Intent (#393)
OK, Squirmy.
And stop calling me Surely.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#396. To: buckeroo (#391)
The official story unfolds something like this. The rather diminutive Hanjour, sometime after take-off, fought his way into the cockpit, and wrestled control of Flight 77 from a 6'4" former Marine combat fighter pilot named Charles Burlingame, a man family members and colleagues say would never have given up his aircraft or the safety of his passengers. After dispatching with the co-pilot as well, Hanjour settled in and turned his attention to the bewildering array of gadgets and devices of a Boeing 757 instrument panel - a panel he was wholly unfamiliar with - in an airplane traveling 500 mph, 7 miles in the air, under the stress of a recently executed hijacking plot. Then, without the help of any ground control or air-traffic controllers providing him information and/or settings, this pilot who could not control a tiny Cessna 3 weeks earlier "would have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position." (From the essay 'The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training', by Nila Sagadevan, an aeronautical engineer and pilot.) From the Ohio/Kentucky border, Hanjour then supposedly turned the plane around, set course for Washigton D.C. hundreds of miles away,* and successfully entered the most restricted airspace in the world without eliciting a single military intercept - despite the crash of two other known hijacked aircraft into the WTC, and a missing third, being covered on every radio and television station in the country. "In order to perform this bit of electronic navigation, he would have to be very familiar with (Instrument Flight Rules) procedures. None of these fellows (the alleged hijackers) even knew what a navigational chart looked like, or even how to plug frequencies into NAV/COM radios, much less input information into flight management computers (FMC) and engage LNAV (lateral navigation automated mode). If one is to believe the official story, all of this was supposedly accomplished by raw student pilots while flying blind at 500 MPH over unfamiliar (and practically invisible) terrain, using complex methodologies and employing sophisticated instruments." According to the official account, an unidentified aircraft that somebody randomly decided was 'Flight 77' (remember, the transponder needed to identify the aircraft had been turned off) then suddenly pops up over Washington DC out of nowhere and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees/minute while descending at 3,500 ft/min, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, 'The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane.'" (ABC News, 10/24/2001, also archived at www.cooperativeresearch.org) The official story of Hanjour's flight path continues in an even more bizarre narrative. Having successfully entered D.C. airspace, with no idea how soon fighter aircraft would show up to shoot him down, he finds himself pointed in the ideal direction toward the East wing of the Pentagon, where all the top brass in the military are known to be stationed. But then he apparently changes his mind as to his heading, and pulls off that incredible, sweeping 270-degree descending turn at 400+mph to approach the Pentagon from the opposite direction. There, he inexplicably lines up the less valued West wing, which was miraculously scheduled to receive the finishing touches of extensive bomb-blast retrofitting the next day, September 12, leaving it conveniently empty of most of its military employees. "The section known as Wedge 1 (the West Wing) had been under renovation and was scheduled for final completion on Wednesday, September 12th, 2001." *And of course that didn't take any talent, knowledge of aircraft systems or flying skills. Cut out the bs, buck. You have to know better than this stupid $#it you're posting.
No talent was required on a nice day from Dulles International Airport to the Pentagon.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#397. To: James Deffenbach (#396)
Can you do a favor for me? Please ensure that Hanjour in your post (above) was not alone..... he didn't do shit by himself (other crap on himself while attempting to back off from paradise)... There were four or five other terrorists aboard helping the little intellect onto the helm just to blow OTTO!
The official story unfolds something like this. The rather diminutive Hanjour, sometime after take-off, fought his way into the cockpit, and wrestled control of Flight 77 from a 6'4" former Marine combat fighter pilot named Charles Burlingame, a man family members and colleagues say would never have given up his aircraft or the safety of his passengers. After dispatching with the co-pilot as well, Hanjour settled in and turned his attention to the bewildering array of gadgets and devices of a Boeing 757 instrument panel - a panel he was wholly unfamiliar with - in an airplane traveling 500 mph, 7 miles in the air, under the stress of a recently executed hijacking plot. Then, without the help of any ground control or air-traffic controllers providing him information and/or settings, this pilot who could not control a tiny Cessna 3 weeks earlier "would have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position." (From the essay 'The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training', by Nila Sagadevan, an aeronautical engineer and pilot.)
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#398. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#361) (Edited)
There actually was a little of that, but only up to the point where the building base lost its rigidity, to hold the upper section laterally at a substantially less than vertical angle. Pictures clearly the upper part of one building tilted towards the gap caused by the entry of the fuselage. However when gravity took over the rotation angle stopped and the whole top section started falling straightdown from where the connection bertween top and bottom broke apart. An additional problem comes from the building base containing enough structural rigidity to withstand the horizontal component of the upper section rotating against it at a less than 90 degree angle. The building base would have to supply an equal and opposite horizontal component to the rotating and falling vertical section's. Your problem comes from confusing a building which is 95% air with a solidly planted and cut tree which is 100% cellulose. A heavy but 95% air by volume item will tend to break apart when rotated onto its side. A solid 100% cellulose through and through will fall like solid trees fall. Buildings are not trees, and trees are not buildings, wanna be. Eager is educated enough to know that, you are not.
If there was structural degradation due to heat, it would NOT have been uniform, and the top of the tower would have sagged to one side, causing huge lateral forces to snap any weakened sections, then broken off, sliding downwards on an angle out away from the structure.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#399. To: buckeroo (#397)
He didn't do what the official agitprop story claimed with the help of four or five other people either. Because, as has been posted to you over and over and over and over, some of it was IMPOSSIBLE!
he didn't do shit by himself
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#400. To: All (#399) (Edited)
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#401. To: James Deffenbach (#399)
Did you hear about the recent LOTTO winner that won four different lottos over time? Now, that is improbable. Is it possible, of course and it happened. Learn statistics sometime..... BISHOP, Texas - July, 14, 2010 — The odds that Joan Ginther would hit four Texas Lottery jackpots for a combined nearly $21 million are astronomical. Mathematicians say the chances are as slim as 1 in 18 septillion — that's 18 and 24 zeros. Just as unlikely? Getting to know one of the luckiest women in the world. "She wants her privacy," friend Cris Carmona said. On a $50 scratch-off ticket bought in this rural farming community, Ginther won $10 million last month in her biggest windfall yet. But it was the fourth winning ticket in Texas for the 63-year-old former college professor since 1993, when Ginther split an $11 million jackpot and became the most famous native in Bishop history. But she's a celebrity who few in this town of 3,300 people can say much about. "That lady is pretty much scarce to everybody," said Lucas Ray Cruz, Ginther's former neighbor. "That's just the way she is." At the Times Marker where Ginther bought her last two winning tickets, the highway gas station is fast becoming a pilgrimage for unlucky lottery losers. Lines stretch deep past a $5.98 bin of Mexican movie DVDs, and a woman from Rhode Island called last week asking to buy tickets from the charmed store through the mail. She was told that was illegal. The woman called back to plead again anyway. The Texas Lottery Commission has seen repeat winners before, but none on the scale of Ginther. Spokesman Bobby Heith said the agency has never investigated Ginther's winnings — three scratch-off tickets and one lottery draw — for possible fraud but described the verification system as thorough. Her other winnings — both from scratch-off tickets — were $2 million in 2006 and $3 million in 2008. So how did Ginther do it, then? Good luck pinning her down to ask. Ginther has never spoken publicly about her lotto winnings and could not be found for comment. She now lives in Las Vegas after moving away from Bishop, and an answering machine message for a telephone number listed at her address says not to leave a message. She asked the few people who've exchanged more than brief pleasantries with her not to grant interviews and sneaked into lottery headquarters in Austin to collect her winnings with the least publicity the state offers jackpot winners. But spend a few hours in her hometown — and equal time scouring public records — and a contrasting profile emerges. Her home address in Las Vegas is on a street called Paradise Drive. When USA Today asked readers in 2000 to sound off on airline service, Ginther groaned over a flight attendant who carted away her cheese and crackers and a sundae too soon. Two years later, she grumbled to the Las Vegas Review-Journal about a proposed monorail running through her exclusive condominium towers. "I moved here because I wanted to have a beautiful home with a great view and that's what I have. I didn't expect to have a monorail come down here with thousands of tourists every day," Ginther told the newspaper, in what might have been the only time she was directly quoted in the media. Nitpicking first-class service, and mad the view in her luxury home might be spoiled? Bishop residents may not know much about Ginther — but they know that's not her. Here around the cotton farms and boarded-up downtown, Ginther, who over the years regularly visited the town to see her father who died in 2007, is called benevolent as much as she's called lucky. They say she bought the church a van. Gave money to the family that runs the Days Inn off the highway. When she moved, she donated her home to charity. Sun Bae, who owns the Time Market and sold Ginther her last two winning tickets, said she drives around in a bland Nissan sedan but once bought a nicer car for someone down on their luck. Bae said Ginther doesn't even own a cell phone. "She is a very generous woman. She's helped so many people," Bae said. Calculating the actual odds of Ginther hitting four multimillion-dollar lottery jackpots is tricky. If Ginther's winning tickets were the only four she ever bought, the odds would be one in 18 septillion, according to Sandy Norman and Eduardo Duenez, math professors at the University of Texas at San Antonio. Exactly how often Ginther plays is unknown. But Norman and Duenez said that a habitual player winning four times over a 17-year span is much less far-fetched. At the Times Market, Bae and store regular Gloria Gonzalez said they've certainly watched Ginther buy her share of tickets over the years. And not just for her. Gonzalez said when her elderly father would sit at the store's window booth and scrub through dollar scratch-offs, Ginther would surprise him with a $50 ream of tickets. "Win, win, win," Ginther would chant, rooting him on. After all, the only way to win is to keep playing. Ginther is smart enough to know that's how you beat the odds: she earned her doctorate from Stanford University in 1976, then spent a decade on faculty at several colleges in California. Teaching math. Is possibilities an incredible consideration?
Because, as has been posted to you over and over and over and over, some of it was IMPOSSIBLE!
Published July 14, 2010, AP
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#402. To: buckeroo (#401) (Edited)
Did the woman winning the lottery four times, improbable as it would seem, violate the laws of physics?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#403. To: James Deffenbach (#402)
I wager she wet and/or shit her britches just as Hanjour did screaming, ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH!ALLAH! ALLAH! to his own death.
Did the woman winning the lottery four times, improbable as it would seem, violate the laws of physics?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#404. To: buckeroo (#403)
I think maybe you need some sleep or a "time out" somewhere that your meds can be adjusted and the nice men in white coats can look after you.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#405. To: James Deffenbach (#404)
Oh.. so, that's your rebuff is it? Can't take the FACTS about your own posts?
I think maybe you need some sleep or a "time out" somewhere that your meds can be adjusted and the nice men in white coats can look after you.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#406. To: buckeroo (#405)
You positing what some woman may or may not have done and some stunt pilot who couldn't fly a Cessna screeching ALLAH, ALLAH, ALLAH, are "facts"? Only in buckeroo world.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#407. To: James Deffenbach (#406)
Yes... in buckeroo's world the improbability of these events are such as to think about the ramifications .... Jimmy, what would you do if you just won $21M or happened to crash (note: not fly) a REAL jet airliner? Rhetorically, sit there because you were well trained and acclimated to the tremendous changes about to happen? Perhaps, make a thread to 4um about a picture you once saw with a beautiful home in the background and a couple streaming by in a canoe? What would you plan to do as opposed to actually perform?
You positing what some woman may or may not have done and some stunt pilot who couldn't fly a Cessna screeching ALLAH, ALLAH, ALLAH, are "facts"? Only in buckeroo world.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#408. To: James Deffenbach (#402)
She violated the laws of statistics. : )
Did the woman winning the lottery four times, improbable as it would seem, violate the laws of physics?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#409. To: James Deffenbach (#402)
Your average citizen doesn't quite understand the laws of physics and the mathematics of probability are not related. All established laws of physics aren't open to the possibility that they might once in a great while not work, they work all the time. If they ever didn't work, even once, then they would cease being laws and we would have to back to the drawing board to find out what is going on. The sad state of education in this nation, and unfortunately around the world, has made it easy for rulers to get their way. It is not by chance though, it is by design that education is so pitiful.
Did the woman winning the lottery four times, improbable as it would seem, violate the laws of physics?
God is always good!
#410. To: FormerLurker (#368)
Which vertical steel core had a major structural failure from an aircaft fuselage coming in over 400 mph and making a big hole in it, flockwit.
There were heavy vertical steel columns, and a heavy vertical steel core, idiot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#411. To: AGAviator (#398)
Buildings are not trees, and trees are not buildings, wanna be. Eager is educated enough to know that, you are not. Are either you or Eager intelligent enough to know that the steel core was not air? It's impossible for the steel core to have pancaked, but apparently you're hoping people are unaware that there WAS a steel core.
A heavy but 95% air by volume item will tend to break apart when rotated onto its side. A solid 100% cellulose through and through will fall like solid trees fall.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#412. To: AGAviator (#410)
Do you have pictures of the steel core damage prior to the collapse? Obviously not. The steel core columns were made of thick hardened steel, and would have sliced the airplane's thin aluminum body like a cheese cutter slices cheese. Idiot.
Which vertical steel core had a major structural failure from an aircaft fuselage coming in over 400 mph and making a big hole in it, flockwit.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#413. To: buckeroo (#388) (Edited)
And that's why he could never have flown it from Ohio to Washington DC, much less descend down to ground level without crashing it into the highway or some residential neighborhood. Even if he had accomplished the impossible (considering his lack of abilities) and gotten down to say 100 feet off the ground flying level, he either would have overshot the Pentagon or crashed into the lawn attempting to dive from 100 feet up to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph. His ONLY possible chance of success would have been a nose dive from several thousand feet up right into the roof of the Pentagon, instead he executed a precision high speed diving turn and accomplished the impossible, flying a 757 at tree top level for a mile at over 400 mph, then descending to 20 feet, leveling, and hitting the wall of the Pentagon straight on at 530 mph, where a 757 can't possibly behave that way.
I understand your point. The issue *IS* Hanjour was not an experienced pilot with any training or capability of and about flying a 757... you know this, EVERYONE knows this.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#414. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#368)
It is designed to hold up its own weight when all its columns are intact and all upper sections are not subjected to additional forces other than those specified in the design. It is not designed to hold up weight when columns are severed, structural steel is stripped of fireproofing and gets unevenly heated to the point where some sections lose their design strength, torques and torsions are subsequently introduced, floors above start pancaking due to their own structural failures, and floor-by-floor pancaking collapses introduce momentum and kinetic energy transfers. Maybe in your preschool physics the only factor is design. That's not how real world physics operates. Real world physics uses knowledge you use to make patents from the likes of Eager, instead of empty words ignorant boneheads post on k00ksite forums, and then trash Eager who actually does something useful with what he knows. No, what's sad is there are people stupid enough to believe that an aircraft traveling over 400 mph hits a building causing fires and serious substantial damage, and within a couple hours the building collapses, but the aircraft crash is said to have played no role in the collapse. Beyond stupid.
The structure needs to hold up AT LEAST it's own weight, where you and your pal are trying to say any sort of added vertical force is going to crush the building as if it were made of egg shells.
It's sad that there are people stupid enough to believe that.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#415. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#412)
So that's why a soft lead bullet traveling hundreds of miles per hour won't even slightly penetrate any piece of solid metal in its path, I take it, brainless?
The steel core columns were made of thick hardened steel, and would have sliced the airplane's thin aluminum body like a cheese cutter slices cheese.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#416. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, *9-11* (#414) (Edited)
The upper floors never pancaked. In fact there was (no) pancaking at all. Have you not seen the video? Have you not seen pictures of ground zero? The buildings were disintegrated. What do you think all that dust was about? There was no pile of 110 stories of "pancaked" floors to be seen after, now was there? Anyone who thinks airplanes could do that is just dumb. And even dumber for trying to convince those smarter than him otherwise.
floors above start pancaking due to their own structural failures, and floor-by-floor pancaking collapses introduce momentum and kinetic energy transfers.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#417. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#415)
So that's why a soft lead bullet traveling hundreds of miles per hour won't even slightly penetrate any piece of solid metal in its path, I take it, brainless? Dude. Are you serious?
The steel core columns were made of thick hardened steel, and would have sliced the airplane's thin aluminum body like a cheese cutter slices cheese.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#418. To: AGAviator (#414) (Edited)
Do you know the difference between an elastic and an inelastic collision? Being that the floors were pulverized, the collision was inelastic, meaning that some of the kinetic energy from the collision was lost in the transfer into other forms of energy, such as that required to pulverize the floor, and heat. Thus, the kinetic energy cannot be tracked as if there were no loss, and your insistance that it can is false. You shouldn't be speaking about things you have no clue about.
Maybe in your preschool physics the only factor is design. That's not how real world physics operates.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#419. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#393)
LOL I love movie references.
And stop calling me Surely.
Name calling is juvenile.
#420. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, wudidiz (#415) (Edited)
You:So that's why a soft lead bullet traveling hundreds of miles per hour won't even slightly penetrate any piece of solid metal in its path, I take it, brainless? Are you that dumb that you equate a hollow aluminum body with a solid lead bullet? A car is a much better example of an airplane body, as it isn't solid lead. Look at some cars that have hit both wooden and metal telephone poles.. The steel cores of the WTC towers were MUCH harder and stronger than any telephone pole, metal or otherwise.
Me: The steel core columns were made of thick hardened steel, and would have sliced the airplane's thin aluminum body like a cheese cutter slices cheese.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#421. To: farmfriend (#419) (Edited)
Get down. Come with me if you want to live. I'll be back. Like that? ;-)
I love movie references.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#422. To: wudidiz (#417)
Unfortunately, I think he is and truly believes that an aircraft is made of solid lead.
Are you serious?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#423. To: FormerLurker (#422)
They're not? lol
Unfortunately, I think he is and truly believes that an aircraft is made of solid lead.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#424. To: wudidiz (#421)
Like that? Yeah like that.
Get down. Come with me if you want to live. I'll be back.
Name calling is juvenile.
#425. To: FormerLurker (#422)
I'm sure some are.... ;-)
an aircraft is made of solid lead.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#426. To: farmfriend (#424)
I'll give you some "movie references" sugar honey baby darlin. Let's pm.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#427. To: wudidiz (#426)
LOL I wanted to come up with a witty one in reply but my mind went blank!
Let's pm.
Name calling is juvenile.
#428. To: wudidiz (#426)
What we have here is failure to communicate!
Name calling is juvenile.
#429. To: farmfriend (#428)
LOL
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#430. To: farmfriend (#428)
Go ahead. Make my day.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#431. To: Original_Intent (#430)
Do you feel lucky? Well do ya punk?
Go ahead. Make my day.
Name calling is juvenile.
#432. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz (#430)
My favorite movie quote: Gentlemen, Congratulations. You're everything we've come to expect from years of government training.
Name calling is juvenile.
#433. To: farmfriend (#431)
All ahead Warp Factor 9.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#434. To: Original_Intent (#433)
Make it so. oh that reminds me. i got to look something up real quick.
Name calling is juvenile.
#435. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent (#434)
Beam me up, Scotty
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#436. To: farmfriend (#434)
May the Force be with you.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#437. To: All (#436)
Damn it Jim! I'm a Doctor not a miracle worker.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#438. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz (#437)
I can't find it. I know I have it on my computer but was looking for a web version. It is a bunch of star trek clips strung together that makes it sound like kirk and spock are having sex. Funniest thing I have ever heard.
Name calling is juvenile.
#439. To: farmfriend (#438)
It sounds funny, but not very logical.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#440. To: Original_Intent (#439)
you talkin to me?
Name calling is juvenile.
#441. To: farmfriend (#440)
This is another fine mess you've gotten us into.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#442. To: AGAviator (#398)
Where to begin? Listen, after I attempt to educate you why you are wrong here, if you still don't get it, I won't consider my attempt a failure, cause I don't think you are here to "get it" anyway. This is for anyone that might be reading this thread on the Internet that doesn't quite understand this issue. When the top of the tower started to rotate away from the rest of the building, if no other force was around that could stop that rotation, then it would have continued that rotation despite gravity. As matter of fact, not only would gravity not have stopped the rotation and it falling over side ways like a tree, but it would have helped it to fall this way. You ask why? You say gravity only applies force straight down so how is this possible? I will tell you why and how. The gravity of the Earth does indeed only apply force in one direction, straight toward it. But, after the top of the building already started breaking off and rotating away from the rest of the building making the sides at a less than a 90 degree angle to the ground, gravity would pull the sides straight down as well, and would do nothing to stop the top part of the building's rotation away from the rest of the building, but would rather increase it. The Earth's gravity pulls objects toward it. It has no effect on horizontal force, only vertical( at a 90 degree angle to the ground) force. The top of the building already was experiencing some horizontal force as evidenced by its rotation. Gravity can not stop such force, it only applies force downward. And with the sides no longer at a 90 degree angle to ground, gravity would have only increased the rotation, not make it stop and fall straight down. And you keep bringing up some guy's name, as if that lends credibility to your argument. It doesn't. If you can't rationalize things for yourself and think for yourself, then I understand why you believe the official version of 911 form the government. After all, they only want to help you, right?
However when gravity took over the rotation angle stopped and the whole top section started falling straightdown from where the connection bertween top and bottom broke apart.
God is always good!
#443. To: Original_Intent (#441)
You either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become a villian.
Name calling is juvenile.
#444. To: RickyJ, buckaroo (#128)
huh? anyone here capable of translating this to English? sorry I don't speak shill maybe bucky can help you he is a member of the liar movement.
even though the war the conspiracies are supposed to be done for, is lurching towards stagnation, failure, and possibly even world wide defeat.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#445. To: farmfriend (#443)
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#446. To: AGAviator (#398) (Edited)
The towers were built to sway in strong winds by design, they did no break apart when even hurricane force winds made them sway more than they swayed when the planes crashed into them. Since they were built for such sway in winds, they also were built to not fall apart due to being rotated.
A heavy but 95% air by volume item will tend to break apart when rotated onto its side
God is always good!
#447. To: IRTorqued, IRTorqued, buckeroo, AGAviator (#444)
huh? anyone here capable of translating this to English? sorry I don't speak shill maybe bucky can help you he is a member of the liar movement. I speak a bit of shill from my time at LP. I think what AGItprop is saying here is that the conspiracies can't be true because the war is failing? Fuck I don't know.
even though the war the conspiracies are supposed to be done for, is lurching towards stagnation, failure, and possibly even world wide defeat.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#448. To: RickyJ (#447)
Sorry meant to ping you.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#449. To: wudidiz (#447)
huh? anyone here capable of translating this to English? sorry I don't speak shill maybe bucky can help you he is a member of the liar movement. I speak a bit of shill from my time at LP. I think what AGItprop is saying here is that the conspiracies can't be true because the war is failing? Fuck I don't know. All I want to know is who's on First!
even though the war the conspiracies are supposed to be done for, is lurching towards stagnation, failure, and possibly even world wide defeat.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#450. To: IRTorqued (#444)
LOL! Oh Good God, that is some funny shit.
he is a member of the liar movement
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#451. To: Original_Intent (#449)
Yes.
All I want to know is who's on First!
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#452. To: wudidiz (#451)
But who's on first?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#453. To: buckeroo (#166)
all your picture shows is how kooky you goofenheimers of the liar movement are, a total lack of morals is your problem bucky. even when you've seen the lawn prior to the truck traffic showing no signs of a passenger jet having hitting it you post this crap knowing full well it is complete BS to the issue at hand. you and your liar movement has sunk to bottom of the septic tank level.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#454. To: James Deffenbach (#170)
second in command of the liar movement is what I make of it; seems to be the story of bucky's life second fiddle to a douche bag.
And buckeroo cheers him (aggravator) on. What to make of that?
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#455. To: Original_Intent (#452)
Who.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#456. To: wudidiz (#447)
That could be it, or he could mean the conspiracy people, which he claims are only 6% of the population, are responsible for the wars failing. I don't really know what he was trying to say, but I am sure his bosses wouldn't mind firing him and just eliminating those that dare to think their government is lying to them.
I think what AGItprop is saying here is that the conspiracies can't be true because the war is failing?
God is always good!
#457. To: RickyJ, buckeroo, turtle (#442) (Edited)
Stupid fucktard jerkwad pretend physicist. Here's what you need to "understand the issue." When an item begins a rotating fall, its top is a very small distance from vertical centerline. After a few seconds, as rotation continues the top is a much greater distance from vertical centerline. This can only mean that a horizontal component of some force has moved that top away from vertical centerline as the item rotates and falls. Which in turn, means the falling and rotating top has had to exert an equal and opposite force to the source of the horizontal component pushing it away from vertical centerline. If the source of the horizontal component pushing the top away from vertical centerline cannot withstand the return force from the rotating and falling object, the connection will be severed, and at that point all parts of the falling section will go straight down instead of rotating and traveling any farther away from vertical centerline. When the WTC building commenced a rotating fall, that breakage happened within split seconds of the fall's beginning, because there was not nearly enough structural strength to keep a 95% air volume building rigid at less than vertical angles, to transmit horizontal force components. So at that point the fall went straight down, well within the building footprint. You're a internet jackoff pseudo physicist who could never cut it in the real world. That's why you have zero patents and publications and Eager has 14 patents and over 200 publications. Your $hitbrain k00k arguments trying to masquerade as physics boil as always down to the usual pinhead Tw00fer bromides: A codependent need for an all- controlling government to support your wackjob theories, and envious rage at people who have accomplished something with their lives within the system like Thomas Eagar. Get an education and a life, loser.
This is for anyone that might be reading this thread on the Internet that doesn't quite understand this issue.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#458. To: wudidiz (#455)
I mean the fellow's name.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#459. To: FormerLurker (#420)
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#460. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz (#452)
What's the name of the guy on second base.
But who's on first?
Name calling is juvenile.
#461. To: Original_Intent, RickyJ, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, AGAviator (#457) (Edited)
When an item begins a rotating fall, its top is a very small distance from vertical centerline. After a few seconds, as rotation continues the top is a much greater distance from vertical centerline. This can only mean that a horizontal component of some force has moved that top away from vertical centerline as the item rotates and falls. Which in turn, means the falling and rotating top has had to exert an equal and opposite force to the source of the horizontal component pushing it away from vertical centerline. If the source of the horizontal component pushing the top away from vertical centerline cannot withstand the return force from the rotating and falling object, the connection will be severed, and at that point all parts of the falling section will go straight down instead of rotating and traveling any farther away from vertical centerline. With the WTC building commenced a rotating fall, that breakage happened within split seconds of the fall's beginning, because there was not nearly enough structural strength to keep a 95% air volume building rigid at less than vertical anglesto transmit horizontal force components. So at that point the fall went straight down, well within the building footprint. WTH?
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#462. To: Original_Intent (#436)
What galaxy are you from? The Ford Galaxy.......lol
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#463. To: FormerLurker (#411) (Edited)
So why were hundreds of people including firefighters unable to escape by taking stairwells and elevators attached to your "undamaged" "thick hardened steel core" center column, which was reported seriously damaged on both buildings, pinhead? And instead stranded on the upper floors before falling with the top of the building to their collapse-related deaths. If the center core had been intact, then people would have been able to take the exits attached to that center core, brainless. The aviation unit also relayed information about deteriorating conditions of the buildings to police commanders, who issued orders for its personnel to evacuate the towers.[21] At 9:52 a.m., the New York City Police Department (NYPD) aviation unit reported over the radio that "large pieces may be falling from the top of WTC 2. Large pieces are hanging up there".[20] With the warnings, the NYPD issued orders for its personnel to evacuate. During the emergency response, there was minimal communication between the NYPD and the New York City Fire Department (FDNY), and overwhelmed 9-1-1 dispatchers did not pass along information to FDNY commanders on-scene. At 9:59 a.m., the South Tower collapsed, 56 minutes after being struck. Only 14 people escaped from the impact zone of the South Tower after it was hit, and only four people from the floors above it. They escaped via Stairwell A, the only stairwell which had been left intact after the impact. Collapse of the North Tower After the South Tower collapsed, NYPD helicopters relayed information about the deteriorating conditions of the North Tower. At 10:20 a.m., the NYPD aviation unit reported that "the top of the tower might be leaning," and a minute later reported that the North Tower, "is buckling on the southwest corner and leaning to the south". At 10:27 a.m., the aviation unit reported that "the roof is going to come down very shortly."[20] The North Tower collapsed at 10:28 a.m., after burning for 102 minutes. After the South Tower collapsed, FDNY commanders issued orders for firefighters in the North Tower to evacuate. Due to radio communications problems, firefighters inside the towers did not hear the evacuation order from their supervisors on the scene, and most were unaware that the other tower had collapsed.[22] 343 firefighters died in the Twin Towers, as a result of the collapse of the buildings.[21][23][24] No one was able to escape from above the impact zone in the North Tower after it was hit, as all stairwells and elevator shafts on those floors were destroyed. Do you have pictures of the steel core damage prior to the collapse? Obviously not. The steel core columns were made of thick hardened steel, and would have sliced the airplane's thin aluminum body like a cheese cutter slices cheese. Idiot.
As the fires continued to burn, occupants trapped in the upper floors of the South Tower provided information about conditions via 9- 1-1. At 9:37 a.m., an occupant on the 105th floor of the South Tower reported that floors beneath him "in the 90-something floor" had collapsed.[20]
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#464. To: wudidiz (#461)
WTF?
WTH?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#465. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#459)
Those phone poles are wood. The columns were steel. Very thick steel.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#466. To: farmfriend, wudidiz (#460)
What's the name of the guy on second base. I don't know.
But who's on first?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#467. To: Original_Intent, farmfriend (#466)
He's on third, we're not talking about him.
I don't know.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#468. To: FormerLurker (#319)
him and the other two goofenheimers of the local liar movement are living proof that the dumbing down of America is a complete success.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#469. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent, (#467)
That's what makes you that guy.
He's on third, we're not talking about him.
Name calling is juvenile.
#470. To: wudidiz, RickyJ (#461)
He's trying to explain the law of the conservation of angular momemtum, but alas none too clearly. Not that I'm picking on him as it is tricky to explain. However, the principle is valid. From Dictionary.com: the principle that the total angular momentum of a system has constant magnitude and direction if the system is subjected to no external force.
WTH?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#471. To: AGAviator, all (#457)
At first glance I thought you were calling me a stupid fucking Jew. I was about to get really offended. But now I see you just think I am a jerk that likes to fuck and am pretending about the laws of physics. For your sake and those that believe the government's story about 9/11 you better hope I am just pretending. Cause if I am telling the truth, then you have just learned that your government is covering up and lying about what really happened on 9/11.
Stupid fucktard jerkwad pretend physicist.
God is always good!
#472. To: RickyJ, *Post Of The Day* (#471)
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#473. To: AGAviator (#457)
I just explained why that is not the case. I didn't expect you to get it, especially since I think you are not here to get it. Reread what I posted and think. Maybe you will get it then.
If the source of the horizontal component pushing the top away from vertical centerline cannot withstand the return force from the rotating and falling object, the connection will be severed, and at that point all parts of the falling section will go straight down instead of rotating and traveling any farther away from vertical centerline.
God is always good!
#474. To: James Deffenbach (#389)
are you saying that is what turned bucky of the liar movement into a flaming retard? and all this while I figured he was born that way or maybe his parents dropped him a few times using him as a football.
ell yeah, if he was sentient it would. But I am afraid he has been drinking the government KOOK AID too long and it has messed up his mind. They say that KOOK AID and Sterno don't mix too well.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#475. To: RickyJ, buckeroo, critter, turtle (#471)
You're not even close to being knowledgeable about physics in spite of pretending to be able to tutor me, or some outsider, capable of wading through your word dumps. Arguments about an unspecified "official government story" are codependent distractions from real issues which are changing policy and behavior patterns. Furthermore such strawman allegations about government stories are irrelevant to factual forensic and science fact-based discussions of events. There are no legitimate physics arguments to 911 k00ktheories. All the k00ktheories have been thoroughly debunked for the last 8 plus years. By physics and forensic examination of facts, not by armwaving and demanding proof on internet boards. The only k00k responses to these debunkings are to claim that people who don't lap up the antigovernment k00kswill are government themselves. This is a lie, because the people pushing consumption of the k00kswill need an image of an imaginary pure conspiratorial government they can set themselves up against.
Cause if I am telling the truth, then you have just learned that your government is covering up and lying about what really happened on 9/11.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#476. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach (#397)
hey bucky how about you post some pictures of Hanjour and his pals waltzing through the gate to get on the crapping of their pants flight. there will be extra credit points for posting a verified passenger manifest. come on bucky the liar movement is depending on you!
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#477. To: wudidiz (#417)
he's seriously retarded like the other two members of the local liar movement. at least turtle has the sense to sit on the sidelines where as bucky can't help but shout from the roof tops how ate up with the stupids he is.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#478. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#470)
No I am not, because you don't have angular momentum with a disintegrating object whose center of rotation is temporarily but artificially held up against gravity until the object either breaks before it hits the ground, or hits the ground, crashes, and breaks into pieces upon contact.
He's trying to explain the law of the conservation of angular momemtum, but alas none too clearly.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#479. To: wudidiz (#417) (Edited)
Are you serious? ***Dude** The speed at which one object is moving, compensates for the relative hardness or softness of the moving object vs. the target. I don't have to confuse you using bullets as one of millions of examples. There are millions of other cases whereby fast-traveling softer items cause substantial damage to harder ones they hit, because they're moving at great speeds. Which brings us to how a 400+ mph speeding aircraft fuselage can seriously damage a stationary core steel column. Same goes for bird strikes, or pieces of straw driven by hurricane winds to penetrate trees. Kinetic energy increases with the squared power of the object's speed.
Dude.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#480. To: AGAviator (#475)
This is a picture of a 13-story apartment building that fell over in Shanghai last year. Now, you were saying that the WTC towers were built so shoddily that they could not withstand horizontal force and would fall apart if they were subjected to what you describe as a "slight rotation." If that is the case, then how did they stand for over 30 years with hurricane force winds hitting them occasionally? Did you not know that were built to sway in the winds? Did you not know that they were built to withstand hurricane force winds? Did you also not know that the jet airplanes that hit the towers caused them to sway no more than they do on a windy day? I guess not, cause you seem to think they would fall straight down if they ever left the vertical plane even slightly. You also must think these apartment buildings, while obviously having a bad foundation, were built much better than the towers cause they could withstand horizontal forces and remain intact.
God is always good!
#481. To: IRTorqued (#468)
really makes you feel proud 2b a duhmurrrriKin, don'tit ?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#482. To: AGAviator (#479) (Edited)
This is true, but you forgot one thing. The Towers were built to withstand the impact of a jet airplane. And guess what? They did. They only came down when they were brought down with controlled demolitions.
There are millions of other cases whereby fast-traveling softer items cause substantial damage to harder ones they hit, because they're moving at great speeds.
God is always good!
#483. To: RickyJ (#480)
I applaud your efforts with AGitprop...don't lose sleep over it.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#484. To: wudidiz, RickyJ (#472)
you're quick Amigo...
damn whatit
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#485. To: GreyLmist, FomerLurker, Kamala, AGAViator, James Deffenbach, IRTorqued, wudidiz, Original_Intent, christine (#158)
Raw video frame: 757 superimposed: Cruise missile superimposed: Which is most likely to be hidden behind that gate controller?
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#486. To: RickyJ (#409)
And what precious little "education" the gubmint has seen fit to bestow has been entirely wasted on some folks.
It is not by chance though, it is by design that education is so pitiful.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#487. To: RickyJ (#446)
I am not certain of this but didn't the Blizzard of '93 hit New York City? I have read that it went all the way from Florida to Maine and I know where I lived they clocked winds at over 100 mph (and it was snow, not rain, so what we had where I lived was a snow hurricane if there is such a term, if not one of the d@mnedest blizzards you ever saw). If NYC got hit with anything close to what it was like where I lived that would have taken the towers down if all it took was some wind. Guess they had to wait until the Magickal Jet Fuel™ was invented.
The towers were built to sway in strong winds by design, they did no break apart when even hurricane force winds made them sway more than they swayed when the planes crashed into them. Since they were built for such sway in winds, they also were built to not fall apart due to being rotated.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#488. To: IRTorqued (#454)
buck has to know better than some of that $#it he's been posting. They put people away who make more sense than he has on this thread.
second in command of the liar movement is what I make of it; seems to be the story of bucky's life second fiddle to a douche bag.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#489. To: IRTorqued (#474)
LOL!
are you saying that is what turned bucky of the liar movement into a flaming retard? and all this while I figured he was born that way or maybe his parents dropped him a few times using him as a football.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#490. To: IRTorqued (#476)
You can rightclick on the image to view the official list with more clarity with your browser. I re-sized it down because it doesn't fit onto the thread properly.
there will be extra credit points for posting a verified passenger manifest. come on bucky the liar movement is depending on you!
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#491. To: buckeroo (#490)
Now try posting an OFFICIAL passenger manifest from American Airlines, not some BS graphic from a kook site.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#492. To: FormerLurker (#491)
ROTFL
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#493. To: Critter (#485)
Looks like the 757 should be bigger than it is in that picture.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#494. To: buckeroo (#492)
Well there BAC, go ahead and try to find something official versus some custom graphic a debunker has drawn up.
ROTFL
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#495. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#491)
Hey, someone got paid really good to do that graphic.
Now try posting an OFFICIAL passenger manifest from American Airlines, not some BS graphic from a kook site.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#496. To: wudidiz (#493)
What 757?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#497. To: buckeroo (#490)
BTW, that site you obtained that image from is presenting a image of a 757 landing at an airport as "proof" that a 757 can fly low to the ground, so those who say Flight 77 couldn't fly 20 feet off the ground are wrong. Of course they don't mention the fact that the 757 they show landing is traveling at about 160 mph, whereas the aircraft claimed to be Flight 77 was reported to be traveling at 530 mph. The speed is what makes the difference in terms of ground effect. Thus, your "source" is dishonest, and flat out wrong. Why would someone go through the trouble of creating a website full of lies?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#498. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#494)
I swear, this thread has to be the GREATEST thread of ALL time. I have had too many laffs from how beautiful the lawn looks to GHBush plotting and scheming against the nation to murder innocent Americans and to FLT77 "probably" wasn't FLT77. Incredible. It just doesn't get better than this, folks.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#499. To: abraxas (#496)
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#500. To: wudidiz (#495)
Depends if it was a H1-B holder who did it, some sap sitting in a cube at a military installation, or a government contractor raking in the big bucks.
Hey, someone got paid really good to do that graphic.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#501. To: buckeroo (#498)
Can't find anything official, can you buckie.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#502. To: AGAviator (#479)
Explain how it took virtually 0 seconds to break every floor truss and smash every external and internal column of both WTC towers.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#503. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#498)
Incredible. It just doesn't get better than this, folks. Yeah Buck it's a real hoot watching a PsyOp that kills 3,000 people to set up another operation to kill millions more. I just can't restrain the belly laughs.
I swear, this thread has to be the GREATEST thread of ALL time. I have had too many laffs from how beautiful the lawn looks to GHBush plotting and scheming against the nation to murder innocent Americans and to FLT77 "probably" wasn't FLT77.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#504. To: FormerLurker (#501)
OK .... it is all a fake. I admit it. Just like the thread title concerning the cockpit door was not opened during flight. Even the idea of Flight 77 was a fake, to include the Pentagon being barraged on 9/11 with a commercial passenger jet and everything else. All the FLT77 passengers and crew AND the Pentagon bureaucrats that died that day were made up. Let us close this thread now ... it has a piss poor viewing rating of about a "three ranking" making it one of the worst in 4um's history. The ranking system I use for a thread is based on the ratio of views to posts; a normal thread is about a "four ranking."
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#505. To: Original_Intent (#503)
Apparently buckie get's off on stuff like that, and is just all giddy about the fact the perps are free to do it again. In fact, he wants to make sure they have the opportunity to do it again by covering for them and making sure they're safe.
Yeah Buck it's a real hoot watching a PsyOp that kills 3,000 people to set up another operation to kill millions more.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#506. To: buckeroo (#504)
So you admit that graphic you posted IS fraudulent, and you really don't know WHO was on Flight 77 since neither the airlines nor the government will release an official flight manifest, correct?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#507. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, AGAviator, a.k.a. Tailspin Charley, all (#502)
He can't so he'll go to another government funded debunker website to once again get some confusion material to catapult - all over the wall. I think the hope, and tactic, at this point is to create so much confusion over the details that the mentally lazy will not work through the evidence for themselves. For someone just really looking for the first time the best course is to throw out the debunker sites as useless disinformation, not accept anyone else's opinion and look through the evidence asking what picture does the actual evidence paint? Once you get sucked into the debunker sites the level of confusion, by intent, goes through the roof. I became convinced long before 911 that many of the supposed debunkers are actually operatives who are in the business of promoting disinformation and Black PR. So, I pay them no mind and look at the picture painted by the evidence not what some disinfo agent misrepresents the evidence as.
Explain how it took virtually 0 seconds to break every floor truss and smash every external and internal column of both WTC towers.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#508. To: Original_Intent (#507) (Edited)
The very fact that there ARE so many debunker sites, full of outright lies and misrepresentations, combined with the fact they all side with the government and/or purposely twist the facts and deceive the readers into thinking truths are lies and lies are truths, well it's pretty obvious there IS a MASSIVE ONGOING COVERUP. There is only one group of people who benefit from that coverup, and that is those who ARE actually complicit in the 9/11 attacks. Since it's the GOVERNMENT who is active in this coverup, along with the MEDIA, there is only one conclusion. Those who CONTROL and basically OWN the government and the media are the ones who planned and executed the 9/11 attacks.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#509. To: RickyJ (#482)
And guess what? They did. They only came down when they were brought down with controlled demolitions The calculations that can be found are for a collision with an aircraft lost in fog and traveling at expected speeds within an air control zone - under 250 knots. Not an aircraft traveling at over 400 knots. While there is some hearsay about calculations to withstand faster traveling aircraft, no documentation can be found. Furthermore even if the calculations were done for a much faster impact there is no guarantee they were accurate. Extensive calculations for the Titanic were done showing it was unsinkable. Subsequent events contradict this theory. The fact a theory doesn't hold up doesn't mean there is a conspiracy.
The Towers were built to withstand the impact of a jet airplane.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#510. To: AGAviator (#509)
Explain how it took virtually 0 seconds to break every floor truss and smash every external and internal column of both WTC towers.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#511. To: FormerLurker (#506)
Not true. I admitted your thread title was fraudulent @post#504, this thread. Feel free to peruse my earlier post ( as many times as you feel capable )..... So you admit that graphic you posted IS fraudulent
OK .... it is all a fake. I admit it. Just like the thread title concerning the cockpit door was not opened during flight. Even the idea of Flight 77 was a fake, to include the Pentagon being barraged on 9/11 with a commercial passenger jet and everything else.
All the FLT77 passengers and crew AND the Pentagon bureaucrats that died that day were made up. Let us close this thread now ... it has a piss poor viewing rating of about a "three ranking" making it one of the worst in 4um's history.
The ranking system I use for a thread is based on the ratio of views to posts; a normal thread is about a "four ranking."
BTW ... you posted this thread, correct?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#512. To: FormerLurker (#508)
There is only one group of people who benefit from that coverup, and that is those who ARE actually complicit in the 9/11 attacks. Since it's the GOVERNMENT who is active in this coverup, along with the MEDIA, there is only one conclusion. Exactly. The sheer volume of debunker sites is a clue as to the ongoing PsyOp campaign itself. If you step back and look at it from a bit of perspective asking yourself a few questions is instructive. Why would someone individually go to that much effort to discredit a viewpoint which is contrary to the Official Spin©? There is a lot of time and money invested in the debunker sites, and some first class graphics talent - which isn't to be had cheaply. Now I could see one or two deluded souls from Freeptardia doing something like that as they all suffer from Kool-Aid Poisoning. But realistically people do not go to the effort and spend a lot of dinero as individuals to put up complex voluminous websites to support a government line. We're back to the Imus "What doesn't fit and why?" situation. So, the logical conclusion is that someone is an interested party in maintaining the cover-up. So then the question is "cui bono" - Who benefits? We could make a short list: Israel, The U.S. FedGov, The U.K. Government, and the people who pull their strings. That is about it. So, most of the debunker sites are probably government funded either directly or indirectly. It is "Talon" News Agency all over again. The "usual suspects" - CIA, MI5/6, Mossad, and the Rothschilds and Rockefellers that "pull their strings". 911 provides the underpinning and justification for all of the wars and police state policies/laws that have been put in place. Prove 911 an inside job and it all falls apart.
The very fact that there ARE so many debunker sites, full of outright lies and misrepresentations, combined with the fact they all side with the government and/or purposely twist the facts and deceive the readers into thinking truths are lies and lies are truths, well it's pretty obvious there IS a MASSIVE ONGOING COVERUP.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#513. To: RickyJ, buckeroo, turtle (#480)
The Towers, located in the most lucrative real estate market of New York City, were built to maximize rental income and have each floor contain as much rentable space as possible. Their floors were 95% air by volume, and built with a unique design of a load bearing center column and load bearing outer walls, with little other support in between. Almost every other building in New York uses a more conventional architecture with a much greater lattice of supporting columns spread across the floor space. And consequently a greater proportion of structural material and a lesser proportion of air space. The Chinese buildings are of a completely different design than the World Trade Center. Their sideways collapse is also quite unusual and is one of only a handful of such collapses. Last but not least, the quote about a building falling into its own footprint is for a 500,000 ton building which would need a 500,000 ton force to move it out of its footprint. Smaller buildings weighing far less than 500,000 tons can be affected by various sideways forces much more than huge buildings neeing huge forces to move them.
You also must think these apartment buildings, while obviously having a bad foundation, were built much better than the towers
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#514. To: FormerLurker (#510)
Who's saying that except you?
Explain how it took virtually 0 seconds to break every floor truss and smash every external and internal column of both WTC towers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#515. To: wudidiz (#493)
I made it intentionally small lest I be accused of making it intentionally large. :)
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#516. To: buckeroo (#511)
Wrong. I posted an article which reported the findings of independent researchers who analyzed the data the US government provided which is supposed to represent the data from Flight 77's flight data recorder. That data indicates the cabin door wasn't opened the entire flight. That is why I posted it.
Not true. I admitted your thread title was fraudulent @post#504, this thread. Feel free to peruse my earlier post ( as many times as you feel capable ).....
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#517. To: AGAviator (#514)
How long did it take for the top of the towers to impact the ground, versus how long it would have taken an object to fall through the air from the same height?
Who's saying that except you?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#518. To: buckeroo (#498)
Incredible. It just doesn't get better than this, folks. Even if their allegations of an "inside job" were true, they have no roadmap of how they'd proceed to remedy it. It's all just posturing and defending denials of obvious facts, in favor of pushing undefined esoteric theories. Who exactly are "they?" Was Shrub in on it or was he just a useful idiot? How to learn more about who "they" are? Trials, interrogations, special ops, paying human agents money? Would torture including waterboarding be OK? What about waterboarding people who are found to be innocent? What should be the dispositions of people found to be conspirators? What should be done about people not participating but making the media reports claimed to be false on unfounded evidence? No answers for any of these. Just more accusations, denials of thousands of other people's far more fact-based research, and attacking people who don't side with them 100% instead of the problem itself.
I swear, this thread has to be the GREATEST thread of ALL time. I have had too many laffs from how beautiful the lawn looks to GHBush plotting and scheming against the nation to murder innocent Americans and to FLT77 "probably" wasn't FLT77.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#519. To: Original_Intent (#512)
Yep. It certainly wasn't bin Laden nor his gang of folks who "hated us for our freedoms"...
So then the question is "cui bono" - Who benefits?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#520. To: Critter, abraxas, all. (#515)
.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#521. To: AGAviator (#518)
Your pals obviously don't have any problems with that...
Would torture including waterboarding be OK? What about waterboarding people who are found to be innocent?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#522. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#516)
That data indicates the cabin door wasn't opened the entire flight. That is why I posted it. Then the FLT77 hijacking didn't happen. It is all fake and (once again) I admit it. You should too. Nothing really happened that day other than Poppy GHBush planned and schemed with a failed CIA agency to create havoc out of nothing. It is all a fake. You have said so and now I am convinced. FLT77 is just like the US moon landings that never happened; it is a ruse that the CIA created to get us into a fake war in Iraq and Afghanistan so we fail .... and drain the country of our pocket books.
I posted an article which reported the findings of independent researchers who analyzed the data the US government provided which is supposed to represent the data from Flight 77's flight data recorder.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#523. To: FormerLurker (#517)
" color="blue">In every photo and every video, you can see columns far outpacing the collapse of the building. Not only are the columns falling faster than the building but they are also falling faster than the debris cloud which is ALSO falling faster than the building. This proves the buildings fell well below free fall speed. That is, unless the beams had a rocket pointed to the ground. Just look at any video you like and watch the perimeter columns. Deceptive videos stop the timer of the fall at 10:09 when only the perimeter column hits the ground and not the building itself. If you notice, the building just finishes disappearing behind the debris cloud which is still about 40 stories high.. Below is a more accurate graphic using a paper written by Dr. Frank Greening which can be found at: WTC Report The paper takes the transfer of momentum into account. Like a billiard ball being hit by another on a pool table, each floor transferred its momentum to the next as represented below. The more weight, the less resistance each floor gave.How long did it take for the top of the towers to impact the ground, versus how long it would have taken an object to fall through the air from the same height?
="
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#524. To: AGAviator, RickyJ, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#513)
Nice set up for a false rationale that proves nothing. The design of the towers was also to code, and although innovative at the time the immensely strong core was comparable, if not stronger, that a conventional design with the primary load bearing members at the perimeter. It was basically like hanging "tree houses" off of a giant Sequoia. The structural strength and stability of the immensely stong core of cross braced steel beams and concrete is analogous to that giant Sequoia as the central load bearing structure, and the tree houses the floors. In fact the external walls and beams existed only for hanging windows, and lateral support under wind loading. The airplane going through the outer lattice work is like an arrow going through a stout Screen Door. It puts a hole in the door but is insufficient to weaken the house's structural integrity. The entire pancaking theory is predicated on the Screen Door not the Sequoia at the center of the structure. Further the interconnected latticework of steel is a great conductor of heat i.e., a giant HEAT SINK. A localized fire is going to heat the steel alright but the conductive nature of the framework is going to disperse the heat throughout the structure thus minimizing the effect of any heating from office fires, which were described by the one Battalion who gallantly made it, on foot, to the upper floors as needing only 3 Hose Crews to knock down the flames. That the heating was not the "towering inferno" misrepresented by the "Official Fairy Tale®" as the Scene Leader at the site of the fire also requested back-up to remove the survivors is also true. You don't have survivors in a blast furnace hot enough to melt or weaken heavy steel beams. All of the observable factors, taking the rate of collapse, the building's design and material, the fact that such has NEVER happened with any other steel framed building, and other phenomena do not add up to a fire inspired collapse. They add up to a controlled demolition.
The Towers, located in the most lucrative real estate market of New York City, were built to maximize rental income and have each floor contain as much rentable space as possible. Their floors were 95% air by volume, and built with a unique design of a load bearing center column and load bearing outer walls, with little other support in between.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#525. To: AGAviator (#523)
As I pointed out earlier, you can only use momentum calculations when the amount of mass is known, and the collision is elastic, where there is no loss of kinetic energy during collions. Since the floors were pulverized, and much of the mass ejected laterally, any sort of momentum calculation would need to take that into account. Since the mass is UNKNOWN, you CAN'T use kinetic energy as the basis for the calculation, being that kinetic energy is lost in the transfer of energy required to pulverize the floors.
The paper takes the transfer of momentum into account. Like a billiard ball being hit by another on a pool table, each floor transferred its momentum to the next as represented below. The more weight, the less resistance each floor gave.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#526. To: AGAviator (#523)
How long did it take the top of the towers to impact the ground, versus how long it would take for an object to drop through thin air from the same height? I don't want to read BS and tap dancing, I want you to provide some figures and hard numbers.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#527. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#523)
Nice false logic - no cigar. One would expect the material ejected by the demolition charges to fall at a pure freefall velocity. However, one would also expect the immensely strong building core to put up quite a fight against collapse. However, it didn't, and no Forensic Engineering examination was ever allowed to determine WHY the central core of the building collapsed at a near freefall velocity. And neither have there ever been any changes to building codes as a result of this collapse. None, nada, not a one, no changes whatsoever to building codes as a result of the towers. That in and of itself is an interesting datum when fit into the puzzle which includes ALL of the observed phenomena, witness acounts, and actions of the government before and after.
In every photo and every video, you can see columns far outpacing the collapse of the building. Not only are the columns falling faster than the building but they are also falling faster than the debris cloud which is ALSO falling faster than the building. This proves the buildings fell well below free fall speed.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#528. To: FormerLurker (#525)
As I pointed out earlier, you can only use momentum calculations when the amount of mass is known, and the collision is elastic, where there is no loss of kinetic energy during collions. Since the floors were pulverized, and much of the mass ejected laterally, any sort of momentum calculation would need to take that into account. Since the mass is UNKNOWN, you CAN'T use kinetic energy as the basis for the calculation, being that kinetic energy is lost in the transfer of energy required to pulverize the floors. I set it up one day as a Partial DiffEQ and it is a tricky calculation. I had a loudmouthed shill hounding me on another site (he claimed to have a degree in Physics). So, I set up the equation and told him to solve it. For some strange reason he never brought it up again. ;-)
The paper takes the transfer of momentum into account. Like a billiard ball being hit by another on a pool table, each floor transferred its momentum to the next as represented below. The more weight, the less resistance each floor gave.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#529. To: Original_Intent (#528)
I take it you accounted for the loss of kinetic energy by estimating the amount of mass pulverized?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#530. To: FormerLurker (#526) (Edited)
Hey nitwit, you're the Six Percenter who can't support your theories after 8 years. I owe you nothing, and have supplied more evidence and links than you ever have or can. The times, as well as exposes of the selective quoting and false editing by the k00kologists to try to make their false case, are already on links I've posted. If you can't even be bothered to sit through one minute and 30 seconds watching a video I've already posted, you've reached a new dumb low.
I don't want to read BS and tap dancing, I want you to provide some figures and hard numbers.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#531. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#528)
Pull out that ol' equation.........AGA can solve it right now, pal.
So, I set up the equation and told him to solve it. For some strange reason he never brought it up again. ;-)
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#532. To: AGAviator (#530)
All you have is bullshit and invective. You can't refute the facts, so you resort to tap dancing, ad hominems, and outright distortions and fabrications in an effort to discredit any real information posted.
Hey nitwit, you're the Six Percenter who can't support your theories after 8 years
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#533. To: AGAviator (#530)
So in other words, you don't KNOW how long it took for the towers to collapse, nor how long it would take for an object to free fall from the 110th floor of the WTC, right?
If you can't even be bothered to sit through one minute and 30 seconds watching a video I've already posted, you've reached a new dumb low.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#534. To: FormerLurker (#532)
I posted the information and it's in plain English. I'm not going to repeat it just because you think you're in a position to make demands. You're in an irrelvant minority, and shall remain so. You basically have no proof of your own, so your activity consists of trying to tear down thousands of pieces of evidence with nothing more than arm-waving allegations of manipulation and an unnamed evil cadre of deception whose sources you can't even identify. As such you're nothing more than a forumtroll in denial mode.
You can't refute the facts, so you resort to tap dancing, ad hominems, and outright distortions and fabrications in an effort to discredit any real information posted.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#535. To: AGAviator (#513)
The top part of the building that began rotating away from the building was not 500,000 tons. The whole building might have been, but certainly not the top part. It was comparable to a much smaller lighter building, albeit made to withstand considerable swaying from strong winds. This ability to sway in strong winds shows that it would not disintegrate and fall apart due to not being vertical to the ground. What do you think apartment buildings in one of China's biggest cities are made for? Rental space?
Smaller buildings weighing far less than 500,000 tons can be affected by various sideways forces much more than huge buildings neeing huge forces to move them.
God is always good!
#536. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#533)
I've repeatedly posted an explicit statement of both those factors. The fact you can't even acknowledge that, in spite of it being shown to you over and over, shows you're an agenda driven idiot, only posing questions for rhetorical effects and not to actually find out any facts.
So in other words, you don't KNOW how long it took for the towers to collapse, nor how long it would take for an object to free fall from the 110th floor of the WTC, right?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#537. To: RickyJ (#535) (Edited)
Whatever the weight of the top sections, there was no place where a fast-acting force could be anchored to push the rotating end more than a few feet from vertical centerline, and absorb the equal and opposite push back from the rotating end as it got farther away from vertical. Once the top rotated past a very small angle, it broke off from its base and from that point forward fell straight down instead of continuing to rotate and go farther away from the center of the building footprint. Compare the construction. The sideways fallen building is obviously much more cross braced than the WTC towers whose columns were only connected by floor trusses with angle clips at their ends. Chinese wanting space in their biggest cities have to take what they can get space wise. Nobody is going out of their way in China to make things easy for renters, because they don't have to.
The top part of the building that began rotating away from the building was not 500,000 tons. The whole building might have been, but certainly not the top part.
What do you think apartment buildings in one of China's biggest cities are made for? Rental space?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#538. To: FormerLurker (#533)
I thought YOUR twoofer tale about cockpit doors not being opened was the topic of this thread. Has it spun off to make-believe towers that fell freefall because of demolition charges, too?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#539. To: AGAviator (#536)
What is so difficult to believe about the impact of a passenger jet aircraft destroying a support structure of a building? Without the pre-existing designed support structure holding the upper floors intact, that same falling mass further deteriorated the lower floors. Of course I am simplifying the issue but the fundamental point is the impact of the passenger jet aircraft into each of the towers was the trigger mechanism for structural failure; it was not from controlled demolitions.
I've repeatedly posted an explicit statement of both those factors.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#540. To: AGAviator (#536)
Which post number contains the collapse time of either WTC tower?
I've repeatedly posted an explicit statement of both those factors.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#541. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#538)
I do believe it was either you or your sidekick AGAviator who brought up the WTC collapse. So do you believe the government provided the real flight data from Flight 77, or not?
I thought YOUR twoofer tale about cockpit doors not being opened was the topic of this thread. Has it spun off to make-believe towers that fell freefall because of demolition charges, too?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#542. To: AGAviator (#534)
Projecting again, eh?
As such you're nothing more than a forumtroll in denial mode.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#543. To: AGAviator (#534)
No, you posted smart ass remarks, and misspelt interpretations of some tale you might have heard.
I posted the information and it's in plain English. I'm not going to repeat it just because you think you're in a position to make demands. You're in an irrelvant minority, and shall remain so.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#544. To: AGAviator (#536)
Can you or can you not provide a hard number in terms of the collapse times of the towers?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#545. To: FormerLurker (#541)
To be honest with you, I really don't fucking care anymore. That data has little relevance to the THOUSANDS of eyewitness accounts and the other photographic details showing the crash. The probable outcome of whether missing details as you are attempting to exploit will change anything past, present or future is about zero.
So do you believe the government provided the real flight data from Flight 77, or not?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#546. To: buckeroo (#545)
So you don't care if the story is true or not, you just want to kiss the ass of those who perpetrated the attacks and allow them to do it again, right?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#547. To: buckeroo (#545)
Those eyewitness reports indicate there were TWO aircraft that headed towards the Pentagon at the same time. Some saw am aircraft heading towards the Pentagon on a path originating SOUTH of the Citgo station, and some saw an aircraft heading towards the Pentagon from NORTH of the Citgo station. Here are the two flight paths. That data has little relevance to the THOUSANDS of eyewitness accounts and the other photographic details showing the crash.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#548. To: buckeroo (#545)
Thousands saw UFO lights over Phoenix......but in that case you call them all Kooks. Oh, and there is plenty of photographic details too. Thousands have witnessed Chemtrails along with thousands of pictures, but you deny that as well. Buck, why do you cherry pick which witnesses are relevant and which aren't?
That data has little relevance to the THOUSANDS of eyewitness accounts and the other photographic details showing the crash
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#549. To: buckeroo (#539)
More bs, buck. Those towers were designed to withstand the impact of commercial airliners. Towers' Design Parameters Twin Towers' Designers Anticipated Jet Impacts Like September 11th's Structural engineers who designed the Twin Towers carried out studies in the mid-1960s to determine how the buildings would fare if hit by large jetliners. In all cases the studies concluded that the Towers would survive the impacts and fires caused by the jetliners. Evidence of these studies includes interviews with and papers and press releases issued by engineers who designed and oversaw construction of the World Trade Center. 1960s-era Jetliners Compared to Boeing 767s Contrary to widely promoted misconceptions, the Boeing 767-200s used on 9/11/01 were only slightly larger than 707s and DC 8s, the types of jetliners whose impacts the World Trade Center's designers anticipated. Statements by Engineers Engineers who participated in the design of the World Trade Center have stated, since the attack, that the Towers were designed to withstand jetliner collisions. For example, Leslie Robertson, who is featured on many documentaries about the attack, said he "designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it."2 Statements and documents predating the attack indicate that engineers considered the effects of not only of jetliner impacts, but also of ensuing fires. John Skilling John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or McDonald Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.3 A white paper released on February 3, 1964 states that the Towers could have withstood impacts of jetliners travelling 600 mph -- a speed greater than the impact speed of either jetliner used on 9/11/01. The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707—DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.4 On Feburary 13, 1965, real estate baron Lawrence Wien called reporters to his office to charge that the design of the Twin Towers was structurally unsound. Many suspected that his allegation was motivated by a desire to derail the planned World Trade Center skyscrapers to protect the value of his extensive holdings, which included the Empire State Building. In response to the charge, Richard Roth, partner at Emery Roth & Sons, the architectural firm that was designing the Twin Towers, fired back with a three-page telegram containing the following details.5 THE STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS CARRIED OUT BY THE FIRM OF WORTHINGTON, SKILLING, HELLE & JACKSON IS THE MOST COMPLETE AND DETAILED OF ANY EVER MADE FOR ANY BUILDING STRUCTURE. THE PRELIMINARY CALCULATIONS ALONE COVER 1,200 PAGES AND INVOLVE OVER 100 DETAILED DRAWINGS. ... 4. BECAUSE OF ITS CONFIGURATION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THAT OF A STEEL BEAM 209' DEEP, THE TOWERS ARE ACTUALLY FAR LESS DARING STRUCTURALLY THAN A CONVENTIONAL BUILDING SUCH AS THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WHERE THE SPINE OR BRACED AREA OF THE BUILDING IS FAR SMALLER IN RELATION TO ITS HEIGHT. ... 5. THE BUILDING AS DESIGNED IS SIXTEEN TIMES STIFFER THAN A CONVENTIONAL STRUCTURE. THE DESIGN CONCEPT IS SO SOUND THAT THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER HAS BEEN ABLE TO BE ULTRA- CONSERVATIVE IN HIS DESIGN WITHOUT ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ECONOMICS OF THE STRUCTURE. ... At the time the Twin Towers were built, the design approach of moving the support columns to the perimeter and the core, thereby creating large expanses of unobstructed floor space, was relatively new, and unique for a skyscraper. However, that approach is commonplace in contemporary skyscrapers. Of course I am simplifying the issue but the fundamental point is the impact of the passenger jet aircraft into each of the towers was the trigger mechanism for structural failure
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#550. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#546) (Edited)
It is of little relevance today; the outcome from (PilotsFor911Truth.org) you discovered which has been sprinkled around the Internet for a half a year or so means nothing to the facts already in the public. What are the actual credentials of this "independent researcher and computer programmer" is the main question. How do we know he/she is qualified to perform the job when many other experts haven't disclosed this data for nine years? What is a "computer programmer" is the question. And was he/she paid by (PilotsFor911Truth.org)? How was the data handled? Could the data have been tampered with in such a way that later verification processes is impossible? I care a lot. But I don't run around waving my arms to the world that I found the Holy Grail of exhibitions to disprove and dispell thousands of expert witnesses sworn testimony to a number of federal agencies. Is there a possibility that a significant piece of information has been uncovered? Yes, of course. And if so, why hasn't (PilotsFor911Truth.org) pursued this issue further with other experts other than a post on their web site that was eventually sprinkled around the Internet. The contents of FDR files (there are two) are in .csv format and can be viewed AND modified by your MSExcel software. It is located here in a compressed zip format (both .csv files). You should be able to right click on the link and save the file for your own perusal. Good luck!
So you don't care if the story is true or not, you just want to kiss the ass of those who perpetrated the attacks and allow them to do it again, right?
Newly decoded data provided by an independent researcher and computer programmer from Australia exposes alarming evidence that the reported hijacking aboard American Airlines Flight 77 was impossible to have existed. A data parameter labeled "FLT DECK DOOR", cross checks with previously decoded data obtained by Pilots For 9/11 Truth from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) through the Freedom Of Information Act.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#551. To: buckeroo, ALL (#545)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#552. To: buckeroo (#550)
Go to his website and find out... What are the actual credentials of this "independent researcher and computer programmer" is the main question. How do we know he/she is qualified to perform the job when many other experts haven't disclosed this data for nine years?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#553. To: FormerLurker, abraxas (#529)
Yup, and you allow for a couple other variables but the big one is, as you point out, the decrease in the mass "m" as the tower crumbles, which affects "A" (acceleration) in increments proportional the decrease in the mass as a function of time. As well you need the number for the starting mass of the tower above the point where the collapse initiates at time 0. So, you have to account for m, K, and A simultaneously along with the resitance "R" of the structure underneath and then as a function of time with a decreasing value of "m". The solution with "R" = 0 is the one that tells you the expected rate of collapse if it is a controlled demolition. It is a non-trivial problem. I'd have to set down and rethink it because it was about 7 years ago when I first went through the exercise. I found the mass number approximation online but I'll be damned if I remember where - it's on a dead hard drive on a computer I no longer have.
I take it you accounted for the loss of kinetic energy by estimating the amount of mass pulverized?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#554. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#545)
BTW, what ever happened to the Pentagon surveilance camera videos? Not the one with the obscured ground view, but the ones with unobscured views of the approach? 
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#555. To: FormerLurker (#551)
Tell that data to the taxi cab driver whose taxi was destroyed by the lamppost#1. Those two cops are mistaken. Ask any taxicab driver who was on duty that day what happened. Washington DC was buzzing with gossip because of the tragedy.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#556. To: FormerLurker (#552)
Why should I find out? As I told you, the burden is on the folks at (PilotsFor911Truth.org); they made the claim; they paid for the data; they maintain the data on their website. You should have that data now. Evaluate it yourself.
Go to his website and find out...
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#557. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#556)
Why should I find out? As I told you, the burden is on the folks at (PilotsFor911Truth.org); they made the claim; they paid for the data; they maintain the data on their website. You should have that data now. Evaluate it yourself. You're being evasive buckie. I'll bet you looked and found that the Argumentum Ad Hominem you were trying to set up is a loser. Of course it is always a loser to anyone who understands logic. The data is true, not true, or uncertain in three state logic. Which is it? You're the one demanding people be your research librarian and waste their time looking up stuff you will then promptly ignore. FL gave you the link. Do your own effing research for your ad hominem attacks.
Go to his website and find out...
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#558. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, RickyJ, Artisan, wudidiz, abraxas, James Deffenbach, Rotara, Eric Stratton, ALL (#550)
Sunday, July 01, 2007 The 2nd Plane Cover Story "I distinctly remember having a difficult time keeping the AA flight in sight after we turned back to the east to follow it per a request from Wash. Departure Control. When I saw the initial explosion I was not able to see exactly where or what it had impacted, but remember trying to approximate a position to give to ATC. It was then that I was able to see the sun reflecting off the Potomac and the runway at Wash. Nat'l and thought to myself that the AA flight must have had some sort of IFE (in flight emergency) and was trying to make it back to National Airport." *For more information regarding confiscated 911 tapes click here. *For a video presentation featuring exclusive CIT interviews with Keith Wheelhouse, Joel Sucherman, and Vin Narayanan click here.
The complex topography, landscape, and sheer size of the Pentagon create a scenario where people on the alleged impact side of the Pentagon -- who would even have a view of this portion of the building at all -- would most readily be fooled by the sleight of hand deception of a plane timed perfectly with the explosion.
However, there are some areas of 395 and up in the Crystal City high-rises where people would have been able to see the flyover no problem. Here is a shot from the top floor of the Doubletree Hotel that shows what would have been a perfect view of the flyover:
Anybody who may have noticed a plane flying over the building were handled with a cover story about a 2nd plane. There were additional planes called into the area and there were reports of a 2nd plane that allegedly "shadowed" the AA jet and "veered away" over the Pentagon immediately after the explosion. The two known planes there were reported in the airspace neart the time of the attack are a C-130 and an E4B that came in a few minutes later. For confusion the flyover plane and the C-130 accounts were ambiguously blended by fabricated accounts of some sort of second military plane/jet shadowing/chasing along the same flight path then veering off/peeling off and up into the air. That way anyone who might have seen the flyover jet would be thrown off by these fabricated accounts that bring this alleged ambiguous 2nd plane that much closer to the time of impact, essentially veering away simultaneously with the explosion...
Vin Narayanan:
-"I hopped out of my car after the jet exploded, nearly oblivious to a second *jet* hovering in the skies".
Joel Sucherman:
-Sucherman saw another plane climb steeply and make a sharp turn. "I thought, 'Is this thing coming around to make a second attack? If there is another explosion, we're toast.'"..."another plane started veering up and to the side. At that point it wasn't clear if that plane was trying to maneuver out of the air space or if that plane was coming round for another hit. 
Kelly Knowles:
...she saw a second plane in the air *over the Pentagon* *as* a hijacked jet plunged into the five-sided military fortress...some sort of plane followed the doomed American Airlines jet toward the Pentagon, then veered away after the explosion. "Thank God somebody else saw that. There was most definitely a second plane, " Knowles said. "It's so frustrating because nobody knows about the second plane, or if they do they're hiding it for some reason." (Kelly sounds like a great actress) Pentagon official said late Friday no other plane was flying with the jetliner. But he said it was possible a military plane was in the area at the time of the attack. (that would sure fool a lot of people who saw a jet fly away)
Keith Wheelhouse:
-He believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon....As the hijacked jet started its descent, "it's like it stepped on its gas pedal, " Wheelhouse said. "As soon as he did that, the second plane banked off to the west." A possible explanation for the second plane could be a plane landing at nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport . The Pentagon is between the cemetery and the airport... (He) said it's possible the second plane was a military plane, but the military has not said it had a plane shadowing the hijacked jet." 
*-Both Keith and Kelly, as well as at least one other person at the funeral (Pam Young), insist that there was another plane flying near the hijacked jet... the other three witnesses say they're not sure what the plane looked like."
Keith Wheelhouse eventually confirmed it as a C-130, but the "other three witnesses", kept it ambiguous enough to still make people think there WAS a military jet chasing/shadowing and that Keith Wheelhouse (who we've interviewed) may be "wrong". It kept people in confusion and the scenario regarding this alleged 2nd plane ambiguous.
...So the "second plane/jet" was eventually explained as being the C-130 piloted by Lt Col Steve O'Brien who never shadowed or chased the plane. He actually lost sight of it after if passed in front of him and he turned around. He was never near AND/OR over the Pentagon at the time of alleged impact (explosion & fireball). In fact it would be physically impossible for him to keep up with a 530 mph jet, when a C-130 can only travel maximum 379 mph. He didn't show up to the scene until approximately 3 minutes later at a much higher altitude.
We learned from an e-mail exchange with him that he was too high and far away to even see the Pentagon!
C-130 Pilot Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien:
Clearly the "2nd plane" that Wheelhouse and others described shadowing the jet was NOT the C-130.
Why wasn't this "2nd plane" more widely reported if it was really in the area at the same time as the attack?
Why didn't any of the CITGO witnesses see this 2nd plane?
Because there was no 2nd plane seen immediately after or at the same time as the explosion but ambiguous reports suggesting this were meant to confuse people who really saw the plane fly over the building.
So...for the sake of argument, pretend you were in the Doubletree on the top floor looking out the window (like in picture at beginning) and you saw the big explosion and the plane flying away from the building. If you didn't report it you might wonder about what you saw and look into it only to find reports of this mysterious 2nd plane. Obviously that would satisfy most people. But there may have been some that called in to report this plane flying over the Pentagon immediately after a massive explosion. However...we will NEVER know what people initially reported because conveniently for the perpetrators...the 911 calls were confiscated and permanently sequestered.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#559. To: buckeroo (#556)
Because you asked. So what are you telling me, you're asking me to waste my time so that you can ignore whatever I post in response to your questions?
Why should I find out?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#560. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#546)
After 8 years you can't even come close to saying what or whose ass that is. That's pretty conclusive proof you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. What's life like, being in a codependent relationship with figments of your imagination, anyway? ROFL!!!!
So you don't care if the story is true or not, you just want to kiss the ass of those who perpetrated the attacks and allow them to do it again, right?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#561. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#544)
You've been provided them over and over. Does the sight of Rosie putting on her game face, and bellowing about free fall times and impossibilites, so excite you that you can't remember anything before, during, or after those easily debunked utterances? LOLOL!
Can you or can you not provide a hard number in terms of the collapse times of the towers?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#562. To: All (#558)
I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions of the author above who states that there couldn't have been a 2nd plane, I just found the eyewitness reports curious enough that it warranted some examination.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#563. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#560)
I've already explained it, and even buckie understood. In fact, he's the one who spelled it out in terms of who is controlling the Iraqi oil right now. You need to look at who benefits, and who doesn't.
After 8 years you can't even come close to saying what or whose ass that is.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#564. To: FormerLurker (#558)
Those eye witnesses do not confirm the story that Buckaroo and AGAvaiator want to believe........so they don't count.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#565. To: AGAviator (#561)
You have not once after 563 posts provided that information, you have tap danced, jumped up and down, and sang out of tune, but not once have you posted any numbers concerning actual collapse times. You CLAIM that you have, yet you can't find ONE post where you did, and refuse to type in a number into the comments window, yet can find the time to post hundreds and hundreds of words that all come down to the same thing, which is, "I dont know".
You've been provided them over and over.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#566. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#557)
I provided the raw .csv file for FormerLurker and anyone else. Since you are so goddamned smart, you save the file and view it. It is a modifiable file which means ANYONE could make the claim as some so-called researcher claims. If the file had been properly released by the officiating government agency, it should have been in a pdf or similar R/O (NON-MODIFIABLE) format ..... so, I don't EVEN BELIEVE THE BS FROM THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE ON THIS THREAD. The story is phoney.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#567. To: buckeroo (#555)
Post the taxi cab driver's story. Here's what the two Pentagon officers had to say...
Tell that data to the taxi cab driver whose taxi was destroyed by the lamppost#1. Those two cops are mistaken.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#568. To: FormerLurker (#562)
Actually to my eye it seems to provide more support for the "David Copperfield" Scenario i.e., two planes one impact. Given the extremely low ground clearance on the final approach, combined with ground effect, and wing tip vortices, whoever was carefully planning this out had already decided that an airliner wouldn't work for the impact in the desired spot. So, we get the airliner making an approach from one angle the impact plane from another and a likely third, an AWACS or some such, controlling the approach of the impact craft and the airliner so that as the airliner reaches the Pentagram the impact craft/cruise missile hits the wall and explodes and the other flies off, likely into the sun, and we have then the cover legend that the airliner hit the Pentagram. That is why it was imperative to get all those surveillance videos as the "hand is quicker than the eye" does not work on a camera.
I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions of the author above who states that there couldn't have been a 2nd plane, I just found the eyewitness reports curious enough that it warranted some examination.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#569. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#566)
lol......there you have it--if the story doesn't come straight from the government, then Buckaroo will NOT believe it.
If the file had been properly released by the officiating government agency
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#570. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#566)
It is a modifiable file which means ANYONE could make the claim as some so-called researcher claims. If the file had been properly released by the officiating government agency, it should have been in a pdf or similar R/O (NON-MODIFIABLE) format ..... so, I don't EVEN BELIEVE THE BS FROM THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE ON THIS THREAD. Oh yes buck, you are smarter and more of an expert than ALL of the pilots over at Pilots for 9/11 Truth. Why don't YOU grab the actual DATA that the NTSB provided, which is the RAW compressed data from the FDR, download the software from Warren Stutt's website to decompress and decode the data, and generate your OWN CSV file, put it into Excel, and look at the values. Here's the link; THAT, or you could download the raw data, PURCHASE the correct software from the company which MANUFACTURES the FDR, and use THEIR software to decode the data. In fact, you could file your OWN FOIA request to the NTSB for the FDR data. Now you have ALL sorts of options there buck. If I or ANYONE else were to try to tell you the results ourselves, you wouldn't believe it.
I provided the raw .csv file for FormerLurker and anyone else. Since you are so goddamned smart, you save the file and view it.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#571. To: FormerLurker (#570)
The only options that you present are silly non-verifiable opinions from questionable "researchers" that viewed modifiable data that came from ANYWHERE manipulated by ANYONE. What a silly presentation you have. You blew it on this thread.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#572. To: abraxas (#569)
lol......there you have it--if the story doesn't come straight from the government, then Buckaroo will NOT believe it. Yup, straight from the horse's, errr, uh, ummmm, mouth. Yeah, mouth.
If the file had been properly released by the officiating government agency
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#573. To: buckeroo, ALL (#571)
What a silly presentation you have. You blew it on this thread. You are a liar buck. The RAW data is available at the link below; It's an ISO image of the CD that the NTSB provided the RAW data on. Here's Warren Stutt's page on that... The only options that you present are silly non-verifiable opinions from questionable "researchers" that viewed modifiable data that came from ANYWHERE manipulated by ANYONE.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#574. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, abraxas, all (#571) (Edited)
Ah, most excellent buckie. First we get the seeding of doubt with an ad hominem "questionable researchers". Then we get the planted suggestion, without any support whatsoever, that the data has been manipulated. Great PsyOps buckie. If you only trust the Official Liars that is what you get to believe - Official Lies. The only options that you present are silly non-verifiable opinions from questionable "researchers" that viewed modifiable data that came from ANYWHERE manipulated by ANYONE.
(Questionable based on what and by whom?) “Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.” - Otto Von Bismarck
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#575. To: buckeroo (#571)
No, buck, you're the one who blew it on this thread. "Of course I am simplifying the issue but the fundamental point is the impact of the passenger jet aircraft into each of the towers was the trigger mechanism for structural failure..." Even if that were true, which it is not as the information I provided showed, why did 7 fall? No plane hit it. Was it the Magickal Jet Fuel™ or some previously unknown and unknowable phenomena at work? Maybe Santa Claus got out early and fell off his sleigh and hit it? Maybe the Easter Bunny got mad and threw an egg at it?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#576. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, Nostradumbass, abraxas, James Deffenbach, all (#573)
What a silly presentation you have. You blew it on this thread. You are a liar buck. The RAW data is available at the link below; 090324_0813.zip It's an ISO image of the CD that the NTSB provided the RAW data on. Here's Warren Stutt's page on that... NTSB FOIA Request Dated 2nd January 2009 Oh, buckie is not interested in the data. It conflicts with his story line in the Briefing Book and interferes with his trying to pooh pooh facts contradictory to the Official Lyin'.
The only options that you present are silly non-verifiable opinions from questionable "researchers" that viewed modifiable data that came from ANYWHERE manipulated by ANYONE.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#577. To: buckeroo (#571)
Here's some more info for you buck, if you want to decode and analyze the data yourself...
One subframe is written per line. The 12-bit words are written in binary with a space in between them starting from word 1 and continuing through to word 256.
The end of a compressed section of data is marked by the line Sync Lost. The last frame before Sync Lost will be incomplete, so the last subframe before Sync Lost will most likely have fewer than 256 words.
You can download the output file generated by the program from here.
To decode the 12-bit words you can use the data frame layouts from here.
The subframe number of a frame can be calculated by treating the first (most significant) two bits of word 1 as a 2-bit unsigned integer and adding one.
Alternatively I have also written an AAL77 FDR Decoder program.
In the interests of transparency in showing that the program is really generating its output from the raw FDR file, you can download the C# source code. I used Microsoft Visual C# 2008 Express Edition to create it. You can look at the .cs source files using any text editor, and you can download the Microsoft Visual C# 2008 Express Edition from Microsoft to compile it. Alternatively, you may be able to get a DVD with the Visual Studio Express Editions from your local Microsoft sales office.
As I am providing this program free of charge, it is provided as is.
I take no responsibility for what the program does or doesn't do.
However, you can email feedback to me (Warren Stutt).
You will need to download a copy of the FDR file American77.fdr if you want to run the program. You can download a copy from here. You can also get an ISO image of the entire CDROM that I received in response to my FOIA request which includes the FDR file from here. You can also get an ISO image of a CDROM received by someone else in response to their FOIA request which includes the FDR file from here.
A Change Log detailing the changes in different versions is available here.
Back to Warren Stutt's Home Page
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#578. To: FormerLurker (#573)
LIKE HELL I AM. The link I provided is from your twoofer_pilot webpage (you know, the folks that created the original article) .... BTW, at least I looked it up .... and the only reason you followed suit was because of the bilge contained supporting the article. I could care less about your pal. The shit provided is meaningless claptrap, poppycock and rotgut meant for sewage in a dumpster somewhere.
You are a liar buck.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#579. To: Original_Intent (#576)
Well now he can look at the raw data from the CD if he's actually interested...
Oh, buckie is not interested in the data. It conflicts with his story line in the Briefing Book and interferes with his trying to pooh pooh facts contradictory to the Official Lyin'.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#580. To: FormerLurker (#577)
Oh this ripe! Now, you are a firm believer in some Aussie named Stutt; do you two dine and dance together perchance? I want the original data provided by NTSB, not some shit filtered crap found on the Internet that apparently you are very fond of.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#581. To: buckeroo (#578)
So in other words, the NTSB raw data is bullshit, eh buck? File a FOIA and get the CD yourself, BUY the damn software from the FDR manufacturer if you don't trust the free software provided by Stutt, or write it yourself. He does in fact provide the source code if you want to verify there's no "funny business" going on in the decode and decompression. Or you could write it yourself or buy it.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#582. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, all (#580)
I want the original data provided by NTSB, not some shit filtered crap found on the Internet that apparently you are very fond of. Oh, buckie you're so cute when you spin like that. You can get the raw data. That is not really your problem, the real problem IS the data.
Oh this ripe! Now, you are a firm believer in some Aussie named Stutt; do you two dine and dance together perchance?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#583. To: buckeroo (#580)
Already provided FOUR links to that idiot. Two were of an ISO image of the NTSB CD, one was of the raw data file, and another was of an identical CD image which SOMEONE ELSE had obtained from a FOIA request.
I want the original data provided by NTSB
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#584. To: FormerLurker (#583)
So, that raw data comes directly from an authenticating government agency, does it?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#585. To: buckeroo (#584)
Yes, the NTSB. Did you read anything at all? The FOIA request and their response was provided to you, did you ignore it?
So, that raw data comes directly from an authenticating government agency, does it?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#586. To: buckeroo (#584)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#587. To: Original_Intent (#582)
Agreed. Just because some off-the-wall website with a pile of twoofers makes a claim, gives no credence to the raw data to support the thesis. Now, why in the world would the US government release data that shows issues about it's own conspiracy against the people?
the real problem IS the data.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#588. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, all (#585)
Yes, the NTSB. Did you read anything at all? The FOIA request and their response was provided to you, did you ignore it? Of course he ignored it. Well, he didn't really, he just did not want to acknowledge that it might be valid. Buckie isn't interested in it as it does not support his preconceptions, prejudices, or his briefing book.
So, that raw data comes directly from an authenticating government agency, does it?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#589. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#587)
Because they claim the validity of the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter can't be confirmed. No shit they "can't confirm" it, otherwise it'd be a blatent admission that Flight 77 wasn't hijacked..
Now, why in the world would the US government release data that shows issues about it's own conspiracy against the people?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#590. To: FormerLurker (#585)
FormerLurker: Yes, the NTSB. This is getting monotonous. The fucking data comes from your pal's (Stutt's) website. Who knows what he or anyone did with that REAL data. Do you?
buckeroo: So, that raw data comes from an authenticating government agency, does it?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#591. To: FormerLurker (#558)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#592. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#587)
Agreed. Just because some off-the-wall website with a pile of twoofers makes a claim, gives no credence to the raw data to support the thesis. Now, why in the world would the US government release data that shows issues about it's own conspiracy against the people? That would be pure speculation. However, a couple of possibilities suggest themselves: A. Not everybody in the government is in on the op. (Which is almost certainly the case.) B. The data was already scrubbed and the reason it shows up with no door openings is because the timing of the real door openings did not support the "Official Conspiracy Theory™". For example if the first door opening did not occur until well past the time the plane was allegedly hijacked. That would be even more of a smoking gun than no door openings.
the real problem IS the data.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#593. To: buckeroo, AGitprop (#587)
I'd take the credibility of the pilots and aviation experts who are members of Pilots for 9/11 Truth and believe THEM ANY DAY before I'd believe anything YOU or your sidekick AGitprop had to say Buckie.
Agreed. Just because some off-the-wall website with a pile of twoofers makes a claim, gives no credence to the raw data to support the thesis.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#594. To: Original_Intent (#592)
Unfortunately there are no door openings recorded. However, this is not unusual as the cockpit door usually is kept closed during flight, and the FDR only records data when the engines are running, thus it won't record data between flights.
For example if the first door opening did not occur until well past the time the plane was allegedly hijacked. That would be even more of a smoking gun than no door openings.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#595. To: buckeroo (#590)
Who knows what he or anyone did with that REAL data. Do you? You are a liar buckie. The ISO image of the NTSB CD is provided at a third party hosting site. Do you want somebody to come to your door and hand deliver you the actual CD? File a FOIA request and have them send you one, as that is the only way they'll give it to you.
This is getting monotonous. The fucking data comes from your pal's (Stutt's) website.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#596. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, all (#589)
Because they claim the validity of the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter can't be confirmed. No shit they "can't confirm" it, otherwise it'd be a blatent admission that Flight 77 wasn't hijacked.. Buckie is only interested in ways to invalidate the data and throw it into doubt. Since he is required to believe the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" any data contrary must be ridiculed, questioned unreasonably, and then when all objections are handled rejected. The last thing on Buckies (pardon the exaggeration) "mind" is the truth. So, any means of throwing the data into doubt will be grabbed at like a drowning man reaching for a life ring. Of course he will not say why he thinks that the Pilots would alter the data, and no amount of certification, or torture, will cause him to accept it.
Now, why in the world would the US government release data that shows issues about it's own conspiracy against the people?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#597. To: FormerLurker (#589)
The FDR has about 1.5 hours of prerecorded data on it, if actively armed. For each tick in the .csv file it is about 4 seconds. If the file had any precision about it, we would clearly see "OPEN" in the column of data. So there are three plausible outcomes here. 1) The file is manipulated from Stutt's website. 2) the FDR and or sensor were impaired or inoperative or 3) the file comes from another source altogether. In other words, FormerLurker, your thread is total BS anyway as it leads to no conclusion that there was some sort of conspiracy by any government body in the US.
Because they claim the validity of the "FLT DECK DOOR" parameter can't be confirmed.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#598. To: FormerLurker (#595)
I don't give a damn. It is not an authenticated NTSB copy FROM an officiating government site.
The ISO image of the NTSB CD is provided at a third party hosting site.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#599. To: FormerLurker (#595)
That is twice you have made that claim. You have bare-faced lied to ME at least twice now and over a silly issue of the website where this data comes from.
You are a liar buckie.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#600. To: Eric Stratton (#591)
Good question. The only people who know the answer for certain are the ones who pulled it off.
Where'd 77 endo?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#601. To: FormerLurker (#594)
Unfortunately there are no door openings recorded. However, this is not unusual as the cockpit door usually is kept closed during flight, and the FDR only records data when the engines are running, thus it won't record data between flights. Oh, understood. But just speculating freely for a moment. Say that there were no door openings until about 70 minutes into the flight, long after it was supposedly hijacked, when a Stewardess went up for private confab, as the plane continues off course under remote control overriding the Pilot controls? Those are the lines along which I am speculating. Of course we wouldn't know it was a "Stewardess" but it would show that NO hijacker entered the cabin at any time prior. Thus the "Official Fairy Tale" goes out the window. It would actually be more damning as with no openings there is still room to try and claim that it was not functioning.
For example if the first door opening did not occur until well past the time the plane was allegedly hijacked. That would be even more of a smoking gun than no door openings.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#602. To: buckeroo (#598)
Hey dimwitted one, the NTSB WILL NOT PROVIDE THE DATA WITHOUT A FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT REQUEST. The NTSB provided Stutt with a CD to fulfill his request. Stutt placed an ISO image of the CD up on the web for anyone who wants it. That you're too lamebrained, lazy, or stupid to download it is not my fault, his fault, nor anyone else's fault but your own.
It is not an authenticated NTSB copy FROM an officiating government site.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#603. To: Original_Intent (#601)
If there was a door opening during flight it could be claimed that was when the hijackers entered the cockpit. A better scenario would be a door opening and closing while the plane was on the ground, prior to takeoff. But that didn't happen.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#604. To: FormerLurker (#602) (Edited)
But, I don't care what that idiot does, says or otherwise. His work is only good enough for fodder in a cesspool as it leads to no valid conclusions about anything. Now, why are you calling me "liar" and "lamebrained?" Are you becoming defensive because I found the Achilles tendon of your thread?
The NTSB provided Stutt with a CD to fulfill his request. Stutt placed an ISO image of the CD up on the web for anyone who wants it.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#605. To: buckeroo (#597)
You are wrong in just about EVERYTHING there bucko. The FDR has about 1.5 hours of prerecorded data on it, if actively armed. For each tick in the .csv file it is about 4 seconds. If the file had any precision about it, we would clearly see "OPEN" in the column of data.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#606. To: buckeroo (#604)
File your own fucking FOIA request and get your own copy of the CD then. Buy your own software from the company listed by the NTSB, and then report your results. We'll be sure to say you made it up since it's coming from you.
But, I don't care what that idiot does, says or otherwise. His work is only good enough for fodder in a cesspool as it leads to no valid conclusions about anything.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#607. To: buckeroo (#604) (Edited)
Why don't you email or phone the NTSB and ask if the copy provided by Stutt is genuine. I'm sure they can download his ISO image and compare it against their original CD.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#608. To: FormerLurker (#605)
Who made you a fucking EXPERT on this .csv file all of a sudden?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#609. To: FormerLurker (#606)
Yeah and wait 2-3 years for a response. Would you hold your breath?
File your own fucking FOIA request and get your own copy of the CD then.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#610. To: FormerLurker (#607)
Why should I? It is already unauthenticated and worthless as as a result and it is uncontrolled hands. No, they will not.
Why don't you email or phone the NTSB and ask if the copy provided by Stutt is genuine.
I'm sure they can download his ISO image and compare it against their original CD.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#611. To: buckeroo (#608)
The information is openly available dimwit.
Who made you a fucking EXPERT on this .csv file all of a sudden?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#612. To: buckeroo (#610)
Then file your own request slick.
Why should I? It is already unauthenticated and worthless as as a result and it is uncontrolled hands.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#613. To: FormerLurker (#611)
So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit. What other obtuse and off-the-wall terms are you going to throw in the bag because I pulled the legs of your thread right from under you?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#614. To: FormerLurker (#612)
Will you hold your breath? I pay the 25 bucks .. but the real issue is can you live for some government clerk to get off their ass and actually do something? And this leads to another issue: who is to say, that the government clerk even found the correct copy of the FDR for AMA FLT77.... who knows if the ENTIRE data structure was properly interpreted.
Then file your own request slick.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#615. To: buckeroo (#613)
People much smarter than you buck have filed a request, decoded the data, and reported the results. You are free to follow the same process, maybe you could even ask for some advice on the Pilots for 9/11 Truth forum, they might be able to help you out if you run into problems. That you tap dance and deny what has been done by others indicates you are REALLY just here to discredit their work, any which way you can. If the NTSB or any other government agency wanted to put the story to rest, they'd simply issue a press release stating that the data image used by Stutt had apparently been tampered with, if in fact that were true. Thing is, there are OTHER people who have a copy of the same CD, so they couldn't easily do that if Stutt's copy is the same as everyone else's.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#616. To: FormerLurker (#615)
NAW.... the .csv files from their own website easily allows an interpretation: "CLOSED" or "OPEN." Since the .csv files from TWOOFER_PILOTS contain the text "CLOSED" this clearly indicates one of my earlier posts: It is inconclusive stuff. There is no clear data to suggest the government or any authorized agency on any level of any government in the USA created an issue.
You are free to follow the same process, maybe you could even ask for some advice on the Pilots for 9/11 Truth forum, they might be able to help you out if you run into problems.
So there are three plausible outcomes here. 1) The file is manipulated from Stutt's website. 2) the FDR and or sensor were impaired or inoperative or 3) the file comes from another source altogether.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#617. To: buckeroo (#616)
So you can say beyond any reasonable doubt that the cockpit door SHOULD be opened during flight, eh? Okie dokie there dude.
NAW.... the .csv files from their own website easily allows an interpretation: "CLOSED" or "OPEN."
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#618. To: FormerLurker (#617)
At this moment, it is the TWOOFER_PILOTS creating the original thread based upon some "data" from an Aussie. I don't know about you but I question circulated data on the Internet. At most it is interesting .. at the least it is worthless similar to television news reports from the MSM; they can't even get local weather right for the next day. Shall the data change anything about the earlier circumstances? That is the bottom line question..... and you can't deny it.
So you can say beyond any reasonable doubt that the cockpit door SHOULD be opened during flight, eh?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#619. To: buckeroo (#618)
Maybe for Christmas you'll get back your frontal lobe and finally be able to bring that horrible whistling noise under control.
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
#620. To: buckeroo (#616)
Well buck, sorry but I thought the FLIGHT DECK DOOR field in the CSV would have reflected the raw state, being 0 or 1. Apparently the software converts the field to text, so yes, it'll show CLOSED or OPEN. In the original data it's 0.
Since the .csv files from TWOOFER_PILOTS contain the text "CLOSED" this clearly indicates one of my earlier posts:
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#621. To: buckeroo (#618)
Would you prefer to read what LIAR_PILOTS have to say?
At this moment, it is the TWOOFER_PILOTS creating the original thread based upon some "data" from an Aussie.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#622. To: FormerLurker (#621) (Edited)
lol, I recall just a few days ago wondering exactly when truth became a stand-in expletive.
Would you prefer to read what LIAR_PILOTS have to say?
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
#623. To: Dakmar (#622)
Orwell would certainly be in awe.
lol, I recall just a few days ago wondering exactly when truth became a reverse expletive.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#624. To: FormerLurker (#623)
Agreed, even though I edited that post with no explanation. :) Too late now, but I think "epithet" was the word I was looking for.
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
#625. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#620)
It doesn't matter now. There is a fourth consideration that is completely missing from Stutt's "expert opinion." The vintage of manufacture for the 757 used on FLT77 was in 1991. The FLIGHT DECK DOOR field for the 757 was in 1997 or on later models. For ALL fields used in the FDR that are inactive or not enabled, they remain closed or in the off condition. The FLIGHT DECK DOOR feature was not installed or activated at all in this case. This thread is closed, pal. IT IS DEBUNKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well buck, sorry but I thought the FLIGHT DECK DOOR field in the CSV would have reflected the raw state, being 0 or 1.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#626. To: buckeroo (#625)
Not really, buck. You made an assertion upthread which I posted to and disproved and you never acknowledged it.
This thread is closed, pal. IT IS DEBUNKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#627. To: James Deffenbach (#626)
OK ... let's mop it up. Where is it?
Not really, buck. You made an assertion upthread which I posted to and disproved and you never acknowledged it.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#628. To: buckeroo (#627)
Post #549
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#629. To: James Deffenbach (#575)
The impact of the the twin towers had structurely weakened the building. In a sense you are correct.
Even if that were true, which it is not as the information I provided showed, why did 7 fall? No plane hit it. Was it the Magickal Jet Fuel™ or some previously unknown and unknowable phenomena at work?
Maybe Santa Claus got out early and fell off his sleigh and hit it? Maybe the Easter Bunny got mad and threw an egg at it?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#630. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#560)
After 8 years you can't even come close to saying what or whose ass that is.
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#631. To: buckeroo (#629)
Post 549 buck. Please pay attention, I already linked it for you in the previous post. And no, that bs about how some falling debris from the other towers caused 7 to get tired and fall down won't hold up either.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#632. To: buckeroo (#629)
Yeah just like a screen is structurally weaker when you poke a pencil through it.
The impact of the the twin towers had structurely weakened the building.
#633. To: James Deffenbach (#549)
Not at the velocity the hijacked aircraft were traveling. The design was in the event of FOG as there were several earlier impacts of aircraft concerning the Empire State Building and Wall Street properties. This means the buildings were designed within certain parameters that you are not discussing; a relatively slow velocity. No building on the face of this Earth is designed to sustain a full velocity 757 or other craft at the hands of hijackers. Those additional parameters and publick safety measures would render the buildings incapable of construction.
Those towers were designed to withstand the impact of commercial airliners.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#634. To: James Deffenbach, Dakmar, all (#630)
Ping to #630
“It has been said, 'time heals all wounds.' I do not agree. The wounds remain. In time, the mind, protecting its sanity, covers them with scar tissue and the pain lessens, but it is never gone.” ~ Rose F. Kennedy
#635. To: A K A Stone (#632)
I don't know why people can't understand that the engineers had to have had in mind that it was possible a plane just MIGHT crash into a tall skyscraper since one had some years before (the Empire State Building). And most of the time planes have some fuel when they crash unless the reason they crash is that they ran out of fuel which would indicate bad planning on someone's part.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#636. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#625)
This thread is closed, pal. IT IS DEBUNKED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#637. To: A K A Stone (#632)
If your scenario is so complete.... why didn't the aircraft appear out the other side of the building after impact?
Yeah just like a screen is structurally weaker when you poke a pencil through it.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#638. To: wudidiz (#636)
Thank you, thank you thank you.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#639. To: buckeroo (#637)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#640. To: wudidiz, FormerLurker, AGAviator (#639)
I am surprised you didn't ask for PROOF..... In late 1997 the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) adopted a change requiring an increase in the number of recorded signals for flight data recorders (FDR). This rule change will affect many airplanes that operate under FAA rules, including all airplanes registered in the United States and those in other countries where regulatory authorities use the FAA rules as their own. Boeing is prepared to help operators meet the requirements of the rule change by its effective date, which varies according to each airplane's date of manufacture. In the interest of further increasing safety in the commercial airplane industry, the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration has effected a rule change that increases the amount of flight information collected in flight data recorders (FDR). The ability to gather additional information after a commercial airplane accident or incident can result in a more thorough investigation, as well as help the industry identify trends and make necessary modifications to prevent future accidents and incidents. Boeing is offering operators the support they need to meet the requirements of the new FAA rule by the date of compliance. ("Performance Data for European Operators" in the January-March 1997 issue of Airliner magazine addresses the rule for operators of JAA-registered airplanes.) The following article discusses: 1. Purpose of flight data recorders. 2. History of flight data recorders. 3. Summary and effects of the flight data recorder rule change. 4. Boeing support for operator compliance. 1 Purpose of Flight Data Recorders The purpose of an airplane flight data recorder system is to collect and record data from a variety of airplane sensors onto a medium designed to survive an accident. Depending on the age of an airplane, the FDR system may consist of (1) an analog or digital flight data acquisition unit (FDAU) and a digital FDR (DFDR) that may have a tape or solid-state memory, or (2) simply an FDR. The protected medium that collects data from an airplane resides in the FDR or DFDR. This recording system has been installed in thousands of airplanes, and continues to play a key role in making airplane travel as safe as possible. The data collected in the FDR system can help investigators determine whether an accident was caused by pilot error, by an external event (such as windshear), or by an airplane system problem. Over the years, these data have contributed to airplane system design improvements and the ability to predict potential difficulties as airplanes age. An example of the latter is using FDR data to monitor the condition of a high-hours engine. Evaluating the data could be useful in making a decision to replace the engine before a failure occurs. 2 History of Flight Data Recorders Flight data recorders were first introduced in the 1950s. Many first-generation FDRs used metal foil as the recording medium, with each single strip of foil capable of recording 200 to 400 hr of data. This metal foil was housed in a crash- survivable box installed in the aft end of an airplane. Beginning in 1965, FDRs (commonly known as "black boxes") were required to be painted bright orange or bright yellow, making them easier to locate at a crash site. Second-generation FDRs were introduced in the 1970s as the requirement to record more data increased, but they were unable to process the larger amounts of incoming sensor data. The solution was development of the flight data acquisition unit (FDAU). As shown in figure 2, the FDAU processes sensor data, then digitizes and formats it for transmission to the FDR. The second-generation digital FDR (DFDR) uses tape similar to audio recording tape. The tape is 300 to 500 ft long and can record up to 25 hr of data. It is stored in a cassette device mounted in a crash-protected enclosure. FAA rule changes in the late 1980s required the first-generation FDRs to be replaced with digital recorders. Many of the older FDRs were replaced with second-generation magnetic tape recorders that can process incoming data without an FDAU. Most of these DFDRs can process up to 18 input parameters (signals). This requirement was based upon an airplane with four engines and a requirement to record 11 operational parameters for up to 25 hours (see "Parameters Explained" below). Another FAA rule change that took effect October 11, 1991, led to the installation of digital FDAUs (DFDAUs) and DFDRs with solid-state memory on all Boeing airplanes before delivery. This FDR system was required to record a minimum of 34 parameter groups. The DFDAU processes approximately 100 different sensor signals per second for transmission to the DFDR, which uses electronics to accommodate data for a 25-hr period. Today all Boeing current-production models use DFDR systems, which will store 64 12-bit words per second (wps) over a 25-hr period in electronic memory. At the end of the 25 hours, the DFDR will begin recording the most recent data over the oldest data. No tape removal is required with these systems. Each of these systems on every Boeing model (except the 777) have at least two data frames that are transmitted from the DFDAU to the DFDR (see "What Is a Data Frame?" below). These separate data frames accommodate the different regulatory agency requirements. A 128-wps DFDR was available for the Boeing 777 and MD-90, allowing the development of one data frame that incorporated all regulatory agency requirements and that required operators to develop only one data frame decode algorithm. "How a FAA Rule Is Changed", below, explains the basis on which the FAA may propose rule changes. 3 Summary and Impact of FAA FDR System Rule Change The rule change addresses all Boeing commercial airplane models and groups them as follows: * Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, without an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996. * Airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, with an FDAU or DFDAU as of July 16, 1996. * Airplanes manufactured after October 11, 1991, after August 18, 2000, and after August 18, 2002. AIRPLANES MANUFACTURED PRIOR TO OCTOBER 11, 1991, WITHOUT AN FDAU OR DFDAU INSTALLED AS OF JULY 16, 1996. The new rule requires that by August 18, 2001 the FDR record at least 18 parameter groups. For most airplanes, this is an increase from 11 parameter groups, as described in "Effects of 1989 FAA Flight Data Recorder Rule Change" on page 32. On about half of all the Boeing 727, 737, DC-8, and DC-9 models the FDR system uses a single FDR, a result of the late 1980s replacement activity. Most of these FDRs should have enough spare inputs to accommodate the increased requirements with little or no modification required. Other parameter groups required to be recorded include the addition of both flight control surface positions and flight control inputs for all three axes (lateral, directional, longitudinal), lateral acceleration, and autopilot engagement status. Airplanes manufactured prior to October 11, 1991, with a FDAU or DFDAU installed as of July 16, 1996. The new rule requires that by four years from date of rule at least 22 parameter groups be recorded by the FDR. In this group are Boeing models 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, DC-10, and MD-80. Most of these airplanes record almost all the 22 parameter groups, some of which operators may ask Boeing to remove to save weight or to avoid maintenance costs if a parameter group is not required by a particular country's regulatory agency. The additional parameter groups required to be recorded include the addition of flight control surface positions and flight control inputs for all three axes, lateral acceleration, and autopilot engagement status. AIRPLANES MANUFACTURED AFTER OCTOBER 11, 1991. The 34 required parameter groups for this category are all recorded, with a few exceptions (some of the required recording rates are not met for flight control surface positions, flight control inputs, or both). The rule gives operators until August 18, 2001, to comply. Since the rule became effective August 18, 1997, the FDR system changes required for airplanes manufactured after August 18, 2000, will affect only new production. The new-production part of the rule changes require 57 parameter groups to be recorded by August 18, 2001, and 88 parameter groups by August 18, 2002. 4 Boeing Support for Operator Compliance Boeing models 707, 727, 737-100/-200/-300/-400/-500, 757, 767, 747-100/-200/-300/-400, 777-200/-300, DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, and MD-90 will require retrofit activity. This may involve the addition of new sensors and wiring plus installation of a DFDAU, software, or both because of a new FDR frame. The details of the Boeing plan to support the airplanes listed below are discussed in "Rule Change Support Plan". The following airplanes are covered by the rule change support plan: * 717-200. * 727 and 737-100/-200 (all manufactured before October 11, 1991), 737-100/-200, and 737-300/-400/-500 manufactured before October 11, 1991. * 737-300/-400/-500 manufactured after October 11, 1991, but before August 18, 2000 (production cut-in of 57/88 parameter groups). * 737-600/-700/-800. * 747-100/-200/-300. * 747-400s manufactured before August 18, 2000 (production cut-in of 57/88 parameter groups). * 757s and 767s manufactured before October 11, 1991. * 757s and 767s manufactured before August 18, 2000 (production cut-in of 57/88 parameter groups). * 777s manufactured before August 18, 2000 (production cut-in of 57/88 parameter groups). * All current-production Boeing models. * Airplanes that require 18 to 22 parameter groups and whose data frames will be affected. * 747-400 and 777. * DC-8, DC-9, and 707 (all manufactured before October 11, 1991). * DC-10 (all manufactured before October 11, 1991) and MD-80 (with FDAU) manufactured before August 18, 2000 (production cut-in of 57/88 parameter groups). * MD-11, MD-80, and MD-90 manufactured before August 18, 2000 (production cut-in of 57/88 parameter groups). Summary The FDR rule change effected by the FAA in late 1997 will require operators of airplanes flying under FAA rules to make sure the FDRs on their airplanes can record several additional parameter groups. The compliance date for these airplanes depends on their date of manufacture. Boeing is ready to support all customers with their activities to meet the new FDR rule. Operators should contact Boeing to initiate a customer requested change if their airplanes need additional sensor and bracket installations but are not covered in the service bulletins that Boeing offers. Though Boeing has no plans to provide unique FDR data frame updates for airplanes manufactured before October 11, 1991, the company will respond to requests for assistance if an operator generates a customer change request. -------------------------------------------------- Parameters Explained The text in the new rule from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) lists 88 operational parameters required to be recorded by digital flight data recorders (DFDR). To meet each of these requirements, based upon the design of an airplane, more than one parameter may need to be recorded by the flight data recorder (FDR) at the same time. An example of this is the operational parameter thrust/ power of each engine-primary flight crew reference. On most Boeing- and Douglas-designed airplanes, two parameters (signals) per engine are provided to the FDR system to capture the thrust/power of each engine. As a result, 88 defined operational parameters in the FAA rule will result in many more than 88 parameters actually recorded. To avoid confusion, Boeing identifies each of the 88 operational parameters in the new FAA FDR rule as 88 parameter groups, as each can require recording more than one parameter. -------------------------------------------------- How an FAA Rule Is Changed New rules or rule changes can be prompted by many things, including the advent of new technology, accident data, or Congressional mandates. The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which performs all airplane accident investigations in the United States, issues a written safety recommendation to the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to consider as a subject for rulemaking. In the case of the flight data recorder (FDR) system rule change, the NTSB stated that more airplane information must be recorded by the FDR system. This recommendation was based upon the NTSB's findings and the difficulty they encountered in their investigations because of a lack of adequate flight information. The FAA must evaluate NTSB safety recommendations based on many factors. Two of these are the economic impact of the change and the ability to produce and govern the regulation. Public and private hearings regarding the proposed changes often are held to aid the FAA in this evaluation process. In the 1980s, the FAA established the Aviation Rulemaking Advisory Committee (ARAC) to improve the regulatory process and improve communication between the FAA, airline operators, and manufacturers on new regulations. The main task of ARAC is to work with the FAA to evaluate the many factors resulting in rules that can be technically and economically justified, then feasibly implemented and regulated. The new FDR system rule resulted from three NTSB safety recommendations to the FAA. The FAA held a public hearing on April 20, 1995, to discuss the NTSB recommendations that spawned a rulemaking process within ARAC. A flight data recorder working group was established by the FAA and directed to draft the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) for the FDR system. This NPRM would become the final FDR rule from the FAA. The working group, representing the FAA, NTSB, airplane manufacturers, and airplane operators, was to report its results (a draft NPRM) to the ARAC Executive Committee. The FAA would then use the draft to create the final NPRM. The Administrative Procedures Act requires that every Federal rule (except those of an emergency nature and certain others) first be issued as a "proposed rule" (NPRM) and provide time for the public to review and comment on it. When an NPRM is published in the Federal Register, the public is allowed time to comment on the FAA's discussions and conclusions presented in the preamble of the NPRM, as well as the text of the proposed rule itself. The preamble discusses the historical background that prompted the proposed rule, as well as how and why it should be implemented. The preamble includes a review of the cost-versus-benefit information in order to justify the proposal. When the public comment period ends, the FAA addresses each comment submitted and determines the content of the final rule. (The content of the final rule may be changed in light of comments received.) ARAC may be invited to participate, but often is not. The final rule, including its effective date, is also published in the Federal Register. -------------------------------------------------- What Is a Data Frame? A flight data recorder (FDR) data frame is the order of the words that are transmitted from the digital flight data acquisition unit (DFDAU) to the digital FDR (DFDR) each second over many seconds (see ARINC 717 for additional information). Most FDR system data frames are made up of four subframes within one superframe. For a 64-words-per-second (wps) FDR system, a DFDAU will output 64 12-bit words to the FDR each second, where each word typically contains the value of an analog parameter. The order of the words (for example, word number 12 of the 64 words) within a subframe, as well as the order of the subframes, define an FDR data frame. This order is important to understand in order to decode the data recorded in the DFDR. Some Boeing airplanes have two data frames, because one data frame in an FDR system with a capability of 64 wps cannot accommodate all of the world's regulatory requirements. By comparison, the 777 FDR system can handle 128 wps. In order to meet the new rule from the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) that requires recording of 88 parameter groups by August 18, 2002, FDR systems on Boeing airplanes will handle 256 wps. -------------------------------------------------- Effects of 1989 FAA Flight Data Recorder Rule Change The FAA rule change in 1989 required a flight data recorder (FDR) that provided a digital method of recording, storing, and readily retrieving data. It also increased the number of parameter groups to a total of 11 from 6: * Time. * Altitude. * Airspeed. * Vertical acceleration. * Heading. * Time of each radio transmission either to or from air traffic control. * Pitch attitude. * Roll attitude. * Longitudinal acceleration. * Control column or pitch control surface position. * Thrust of each engine. Because most airplanes recorded only six parameter groups, nearly all operators were required to retrofit the FDRs in their airplanes. In response to this requirement, many FDR manufacturers developed crash-survivable FDRs that did not require flight data acquisition units to replace the first-generation foil FDRs, and that accommodated the 11 required parameter groups for airplanes with up to four engines. Airplanes such as the 737 that have these FDRs can accommodate up to 18 parameter groups, as they have only two engines for which data must be recorded. -------------------------------------------------- Where To Find the FAA FDR Rule The full content of the FAA FDR rule is listed in the Federal Register Part IV, Department of Transportation, Federal Aviation Administration, section 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), affected parts: * 121 (Certification and Operations: Domestic, Flag, and Supplemental Air Carriers and Commercial Operators of Large Aircraft). * 125 (Certification and Operations: Airplanes Having a Seating Capacity of 20 or More Passengers or a Maximum Payload Capacity of 6,000 Pounds or More). * 129 (Operations: Foreign Air Carriers and Foreign Operators of U.S.-Registered Aircraft Engaged In Common Carriage). * 135 (Air-Taxi Operators and Commercial Operators). The rule may be found on the World Wide Web at the following address: http://www.faa.gov/avr/arm/nprm/nprm.htm -------------------------------------------------- Rule Change Support Plan Boeing plans the following activities to help operators comply with the FAA rule change for flight data recorders. 717-200. This model will be equipped to meet the new rule. 727 AND 737-100/-200. (ALL MANUFACTURED BEFORE OCTOBER 11, 1991), AND 737-300/-400/-500 MANUFACTURED BEFORE OCTOBER 11, 1991. Service Bulletin (SB) 727-31-0059, SB 737-31-1100, and SB 737-31-1099, respectively, provide for purchase of a parts kit (sensor brackets), supplier information for ordering sensors, and wiring examples from the sensors to the flight data recorder (FDR) (airplane tail) or flight data acquisition unit (FDAU)/digital FDAU (DFDAU). These parts would address flight control surface positions and flight control inputs for all three axes and lateral acceleration. Boeing technical support for the autopilot/flight director computer (AFDC) engaged is available upon request in each of these three categories of airplanes. 737-300/-400/-500 MANUFACTURED AFTER OCTOBER 11, 1991, BUT BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2000 (PRODUCTION CUT-IN OF 57/88 PARAMETER GROUPS). These models will need a new FDR frame (see "What Is a Data Frame?"). Boeing is working with its FDAU suppliers to develop a common data frame across all Boeing models. 737-600/-700/-800. These models will be equipped to meet the new rule. 747-100/-200/-300. Most of these airplanes record the required 22 parameter groups. However, a service bulletin, if requested by an operator, could provide for a parts kit (sensor brackets), sensors supplier information for ordering, and wiring examples from the sensors to the FDAU/DFDAU and for the AFDC engaged discrete. The parts kit would address both flight control surface positions and flight control inputs for all three axes and lateral acceleration. 747-400S MANUFACTURED BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2000 (PRODUCTION CUT-IN OF 57/88 PARAMETER GROUPS). These models will need a new FDR frame. Boeing is working with its FDAU suppliers to develop a common data frame across all Boeing models. A service bulletin will be released for a digital flight data acquisition card update. 757S AND 767S MANUFACTURED BEFORE OCTOBER 11, 1991. A service bulletin is currently in work and will be released to provide for purchase of a parts kit (sensor brackets), sensors supplier information for ordering, and wiring examples from the sensors to the DFDAU. These parts would address both flight control surface positions and flight control inputs for all three axes and lateral acceleration. Boeing technical support for the AFDC engaged discrete is available upon request. Also, incorporation of SB 757-31-0059 and SB 767-31-0091 for correction of engine indicating and crew alerting system (EICAS) filtering of flight control data is required. 757S AND 767S MANUFACTURED BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2000 (PRODUCTION CUT-IN OF 57/88 PARAMETER GROUPS). These models will need a new FDR frame and incorporation of the service bulletins for correction of EICAS filtering of flight control data resulting from PRR 54727 (757) and PRR B12710 (767). Boeing is working with its FDAU suppliers to develop a common data frame across all Boeing models. 777S MANUFACTURED BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2000 (PRODUCTION CUT-IN OF 57/88 PARAMETER GROUPS). These models will need a new FDR frame. Boeing is working with its FDAU suppliers to develop a common data frame across all Boeing models. A service bulletin will be released for an airplane information management system (AIMS) digital flight data acquisition function update. ALL CURRENT-PRODUCTION BOEING MODELS. These models will require retrofit of new flight recorder data frames that will address the 34 parameter groups. The plan is to design the data frames as required to meet the new FDR rule and provide these designs in all the appropriate Boeing documentation. This activity is required because the MD series, 737, 757, and 767 DFDAUs that will incorporate this update are buyer- furnished equipment (selected by the operator). AIRPLANES THAT REQUIRE 18 TO 22 PARAMETER GROUPS AND WHOSE DATA FRAMES WILL BE AFFECTED. These airplanes will be a subset of the new data frames. For these airplanes, as well as for the MD series, 737, 757, and 767, Boeing plans to accomplish the data frame development and lab testing short of installation and certification on the airplane, and update all the appropriate documentation. Boeing can certify these data frames for an operator if an operator generates a customer change request to install the new data frame. Installation would occur on a production airplane for delivery prior to the production cut-in of the 57/88 parameter groups. 747-400 AND 777. For these two models Boeing provides the FDR acquisition function (supplier-furnished equipment). The 747-400 uses a digital flight data acquisition card (DFDAC). The 777 uses a digital flight data acquisition function (DFDAF) that resides in a module in both cabinets of the AIMS. The data frame updates for these models will be provided to operators through a purchased service bulletin. The 777 service bulletin will be a software change only. DC-8, DC-9, AND 707 (ALL MANUFACTURED BEFORE OCTOBER 11, 1991). Boeing believes that these models comply with the 1989 FAA requirement for 11 parameter groups. A service bulletin, if requested by an operator, could provide for a parts kit (sensor brackets), sensors supplier information for ordering, and wiring examples from the sensors to the FDAU/DFDAU. The parts kit would address both flight control surface positions and flight control inputs for all three axes, the auto-pilot engaged discrete, and lateral acceleration. DC-10 (ALL MANUFACTURED BEFORE OCTOBER 11, 1991) AND MD-80 (WITH FDAU) MANUFACTURED BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2000 (PRODUCTION CUT-IN OF 57/88 PARAMETER GROUPS). A kit configuration notice (KCN) is available upon customer request to provide instructions for rewiring the programming plug of the currently installed FDAU to create a new FDR frame, which will meet the increased parameter recording rates. This same KCN can include flight control input position sensors and wiring, plus provide instructions for removing the wiring for parameters (signals) currently being recorded that are not required by the new FAA rule. Removal of parameters not required by the new rule is required to use the currently installed 64-words-per-second (wps) FDR system. MD-80, MD-90, AND MD-11 MANUFACTURED BEFORE AUGUST 18, 2000 (PRODUCTION CUT-IN OF 57/88 PARAMETER GROUPS). The DFDAUs installed on these models will need a new FDR frame to meet the increased parameter recording rates. A KCN is available upon customer request to provide instructions for adding flight control input position sensors and wiring, plus provide instructions for removing the wiring for parameters currently being recorded that are not required by the new FAA rule. Removal of parameters not required by the new rule is required to use the currently installed 64-wps FDR system. return to top | AERO text-only contents | Boeing Home | Commercial Copyright © The Boeing Company. All rights reserved. Flight Data Recorder Rule Change
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#641. To: buckeroo, wudidiz (#640)
So where in that long list does it say that the 757 doesn't collect FLIGHT DECK DOOR status?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#642. To: buckeroo (#625)
Again, where is that information there buckie?
The vintage of manufacture for the 757 used on FLT77 was in 1991. The FLIGHT DECK DOOR field for the 757 was in 1997 or on later models. For ALL fields used in the FDR that are inactive or not enabled, they remain closed or in the off condition.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#643. To: buckeroo, RickyJ, turtle, FormerLurker, Original_Indent (#604) (Edited)
Are you becoming defensive because I found the Achilles tendon of your thread? Here's another Achilles tendon, and a big one at that. And also a proof that the Tw0ffer pretend physicists don't know jack$hit about real world physics. Tw00fers try to explain away the release of several gigajoules of aircraft crash energy by touting the flexibility of the Twin Towers and saying this flexibility allows the crash energy to dissipate harmlessly. This means the Towers sway enough in a high speed impact where the huge amounts of energy from the crash get dissipated. Which in turn means even though the 911 crash moves the Tower's centerline in the direction of the gigajoule plane crash, the Tower's centerline eventually returns to its normal position post crash because of its structural flexibility. However, Tw00ferk00ks also want the top of the Towers to fall sideways and not into vertically into the building footprint. To do this an entirely different set of assumptions about the building structure must be used. Because, as an object rotates in a sideways fall, a horizontal force gets applied to the top and the middle of the falling and rotating object, to keep pushing the top and middle farther and farther from vertical centerline. However, at the same time the horizontal force pushes the top and middle of the rotating object farther and farther from vertical centerline, the rotating object is exerting equal and opposite force onto what's doing that pushing. But what is the counterforce being applied against? Why, a flexible structure - per the original theory trying to explain away a lack of connection between the huge crash and the subsequent building collapse. So this flexible structure theory means the building will go in the direction of the counter force. In other words, the force on the rotating object will push its top and middle in one direction. However the counter force from rotating object will push the building centerline in the opposite direction, and the two movements will cancel! Because the building is supposed to be flexible enough to absorb a gigajoule of crash energy! With a flexible structure, the centerline will remain more or less within the footprint of the building, because of the force and counter force cancelling. And the falling section - rotating or not - will also remain within the base footprint. Because pushing energy and pushing counter forces offset each other so the net centerline remains the same! Bottom Line: You can't have a building that's both flexible enough to sway with a gigajoule crash and return to form on its own, and at the same time have that building that's rigid enough to provide a platform for a rotating sideways collapse. Tw00ferk00ks rebut their own half-baked physics! QED. LOL.
Now, why are you calling me "liar" and "lamebrained?"
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#644. To: FormerLurker (#641) (Edited)
It is based on the vintage of 757 aircraft as a -1, -2 or -3. Only the -3 (after 1997) were equipped with the sensor as operational. There are no records to show that AMAFLT77 was ever upgraded [edit: hotlink to FAA: (Flight 77 = N644AA 2460 Certificate Issue Date 05/08/1991) Sorry... your thread is closed other than mopup.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#645. To: buckeroo (#490)
what part of verified don't you people of the liar movement understand bucky?
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#646. To: buckeroo (#644)
Nope, you keep avoiding and evading my post about what the people who built the towers, or engineered them, had to say about plane crashes and fires, etc. But I can understand that. The official agitprop falls apart when faced with that.
Sorry... your thread is closed other than mopup.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#647. To: James Deffenbach (#646)
Who cares about what anyone says now? All the original plans were destroyed in the three buildings. Apparently there is an old relic of a ship just discovered and other debris but the records are gone, pal.
you keep avoiding and evading my post about what the people who built the towers, or engineered them, had to say about plane crashes and fires, etc.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#648. To: AGAviator (#643)
You are really dumb. I explained this to you already. You can't think, you only parrot idiots that YOU think make you look smart. Around here, you only look like a moron.
And the falling section - rotating or not - will also remain within the base footprint.
God is always good!
#649. To: buckeroo (#647)
uh huh. Just about what I expected. Either no response at all or just more bs. Of course the plans for the buildings were not destroyed in the buildings. Do you believe that there are no copies of them in the architects and engineers offices and in the City's planning department, etc.?
Who cares about what anyone says now? All the original plans were destroyed in the three buildings. Apparently there is an old relic of a ship just discovered and other debris but the records are gone, pal.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#650. To: James Deffenbach (#649)
Now, you have to prove that position. how much time do you need? BTW, ALL the plans were in BLDG7.... with copies in the others. I guess you can goto the hall of records in NYC.
Of course the plans for the buildings were not destroyed in the buildings.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#651. To: AGAviator (#643) (Edited)
You know what? You are nothing, a nobody, a minimum wage sucker. Go suck the government's tit you good for nothing asshole. You know nothing about physics, you just parrot the stooges working for the government. When you die, and you will die, look up and see those killed by your damn bosses. They won't be where you are, and you will regret your choices in this life forever.
God is always good!
#652. To: buckeroo (#650) (Edited)
I don't have to go to NYC to know that all the plans for two of the tallest buildings in the world were not all stored in the same location. Were all the engineers and architects offices in 7?
I guess you can goto the hall of records in NYC.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#653. To: James Deffenbach (#652)
The original construction is all done, years ago. What does it matter where any of the technical people are now? The documented plans are gone.
Were all the engineers and architects offices in 7?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#654. To: AGAviator (#518)
is that why you attack any and all who refuse to buy the government talking points you and the rest of the liar movement post. calling what you do fact based research is a hoot, all hail the official fairy tale yes, fact based hardly.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#655. To: FormerLurker (#526)
I don't want to read BS and tap dancing, I want you to provide some figures and hard numbers. that would require fact-based research and ag and the rest of his pals of the liar movement are factaphobics.
How long did it take the top of the towers to impact the ground, versus how long it would take for an object to drop through thin air from the same height?
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#656. To: AAGAviator, all (#653)
AG ... these are some tough folks. And I think you hold up well taking some of the stuff. Let's get back on the earlier threads about the twin towers.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#657. To: IRTorqued (#654)
I attack liars who deny the obvious while pushing the exotic, unproven, and unprovable. When an aircraft traveling over 400 mph hits a building, creates a huge gash and starts uncontrolled fires, then the building collapses within a couple hours, that's what I call "obvious" as far as causes go.
is that why you attack any and all who refuse to buy the government talking points
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#658. To: buckeroo (#545)
bucky you and the rest of the liar movement never cared about the truth all you ever cared about is echoing the fabrications in the government supplied talking points aka the official conspiracy theory as told by gwbush and company.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#659. To: RickyJ (#651)
Tell me how a building can be flexible enough to dissipate a gigajoule of energy by moving in the direction of a hit, then restoring its centerline by itself, but then be inflexible enough to supply a place where a falling and rotating object can push against, so the top of the rotating piece comes to rest outside the building footprint. You can't have both at the same time. The building is either flexible and dissipates energy but can't provide a rigid platform, or rigid in which case a high impact crash will destroy or seriously damage the structure because it doesn't have enough give. You've trashed your own arguments and are too stupid to know it. The extent of your physics knowledge, internet jerkwad.
You know nothing about physics,
Go suck the government's tit you good for nothing asshole. You know nothing about physics, you just parrot the stooges working for the government
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#660. To: AGAviator (#657)
if that were true you'd be whopping up on yourself with a vengence
I attack liars who deny the obvious while pushing the exotic, unproven, and unprovable.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#661. To: James Deffenbach, christine, jethro tull, cynicom, buckeroo, ricky J, axxiom, former lurker, all (#652)
I was looking for a video on youtube and came across a comment from a fellow. It might shed some light onto the subject. # rupertmja1 1 month ago Or, maybe theŒ79; plane that crashed en-route was headed elsewhere, meaning, maybe there was/is another building out there laced with TNT. A lot of hypothetical, but we do live in crazy times do we not. As far as I can see, no one has come up with this theory. # rupertmja1 1 month ago Does no one think like me? Think about this. WTC7 fell in the afternoon. If it was dynamited, and it certainly seems so to me, why/ My theory is that the plane that crashed in a field ... think ... it crashed en route ... so ... en route to where. Methinks WTC7. If it hit WTC7 it too could have been blown up in the morning on schedule along with WTC1 and 2. But it wasn't hit - which must haveŒ79; given the 'planners' a big dilemma of leaving a building full of TNT out there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1BLRpiRVnY
#662. To: IRTorqued (#660)
You're hot air and nothing else, windbag.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#663. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, wudidiz (#557)
Which is it? You're the one demanding people be your research librarian and waste their time looking up stuff you will then promptly ignore. FL gave you the link. Do your own effing research for your ad hominem attacks. he and the rest of the liar movement have been handed the government BS talking points for so long now that they are like a three generation welfare household; they are entitled to free hand outs with no effort from themselves required.
You're being evasive buckie. I'll bet you looked and found that the Argumentum Ad Hominem you were trying to set up is a loser. Of course it is always a loser to anyone who understands logic. The data is true, not true, or uncertain in three state logic.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#664. To: AGAviator (#662)
ag of the liar movement you'd be a lying sack of turds if not for the fact you are but a kernel of corn in said turds
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#665. To: IRTorqued (#663)
liar movement. opposite of truth. That's good.
#666. To: AGAviator (#643)
Hey LiaRk00k, what was the collapse time for either WTC tower?
Tw00ferk00ks rebut their own half-baked physics!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#667. To: AGAviator (#659)
Tell me what happens to kinetic energy in an inelastic collision.
The extent of your physics knowledge, internet jerkwad.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#668. To: IRTorqued (#655)
It's obvious that the value would indicate the towers fell at close to free fall speed, that's why he WON'T post it.
that would require fact-based research and ag and the rest of his pals of the liar movement are factaphobics.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#669. To: buckeroo (#644)
Says who, you and you alone?
It is based on the vintage of 757 aircraft as a -1, -2 or -3. Only the -3 (after 1997) were equipped with the sensor as operational.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#670. To: AGAviator (#643)
Hey LIAR_genius, what percentage of the plane was left intact after the impact? It was torn to shreds, and THAT is where most of that energy was dissipated.
Tw00fers try to explain away the release of several gigajoules of aircraft crash energy by touting the flexibility of the Twin Towers and saying this flexibility allows the crash energy to dissipate harmlessly.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#671. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#666)
Look at my links, fukwit. And stop drooling over Rosie! PWNED!!!!!!!
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#672. To: AGAviator (#671)
Post the value shit for brains.
Look at my links, fukwit. And stop drooling over Rosie!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#673. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#578)
now you've gone and made bucky cry like a little school girl, again!
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#674. To: buckeroo (#644)
Still waiting for you to post information concerning the data fields recorded on Flight 77's data recorder. Show us the FAA specifications for which data fields are collected, and tie that to the rulings on required upgrades.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#675. To: IRTorqued (#673)
I bet he's hitting the bottle hard tonight.
now you've gone and made bucky cry like a little school girl, again!
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#676. To: FormerLurker (#602)
that would require actions by bucky of the liar movement and the liar movement members are conditioned to being hand fed the official fairy tale talking points and refuse to make one iota of effort to obtain information and most certainly will not attempt to acquire information that could/would in any wise show what a patent falsehood the official conspiracy theory is.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#677. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#609)
Yeah and wait 2-3 years for a response. Would you hold your breath? the liar movement members have more excuses than Doans has pills of the three retards of the liar movement on this web site only turtle has the sense to hide in his shell. bucky's posts are akin to whiny school girl drivel who keeps getting her butt handed to her in a did to did not contest.
File your own fucking FOIA request and get your own copy of the CD then.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#678. To: FormerLurker (#672)
Post the value shit for brains. Post it yourself, fukwit. Can you listen to a link and read postings on the screen? You've been punked about free fall vs. real observed times with incontrovertible timed video evidence. Now you're trying to divert the subject, like the loser you'll always be.
Look at my links, fukwit. And stop drooling over Rosie!
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#679. To: A K A Stone (#665)
the liar movement members hate the truth, they are indeed factaphobics.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#680. To: AGAviator (#671)
Ok, so you CAN'T or WON'T post the collapse time that your own video claims is correct. Say the claimed 15 second collapse time is true. Being that free fall would be 9 seconds, you're saying that it took 6 seconds to break, crush, pulverize, and bring down close to 80 stories of undamaged hardened steel core columns, exterior columns, and reinforced concrete floors supported by steel trusses. Uh huh. Have you bought the Brooklyn Bridge as well?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#681. To: AGAviator (#678)
Not incontrovertible tard, but even using your video's value, which you apparently were too stupid to figure out by watching, since you needed me to tell you what it was, couldn't happen without controlled demolition.
You've been punked about free fall vs. real observed times with incontrovertible timed video evidence.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#682. To: AGAviator (#678)
I'M the one trying to divert the subject? HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! You just couldn't answer a VERY simple question by typing in a number, instead you found it necessary to say LOOKIE HERE AT MY COOL VIDEO. What an ass.
Now you're trying to divert the subject, like the loser you'll always be.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#683. To: FormerLurker (#668)
you and I and everyone else seeking the truth of 9-11 know that. of the three members of the liar movement on this site only turtle has the sense bail ag and bucky seem to never tire of having their collective butts handed to them and a good handing you have given them over these past few days. you have how we used to say slapped them like a red headed step child.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#684. To: FormerLurker (#680)
Then it wasn't free fall, period. So once again you change the subject looking for another angle to try to confuse and obfuscate with. Liar and loser.
Say the claimed 15 second collapse time is true. Being that free fall would be 9 seconds.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#685. To: IRTorqued, buckeroo, turtle (#683)
That's why you've persuaded less people over 8 years than believe in alien abductions, maroon. BHAHAHAHAHA!
you have how we used to say slapped them like a red headed step child.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#686. To: FormerLurker (#675)
well he has been clubbed like a baby seal about a hundred times if not more on this thread alone, he'll need something to take the edge off.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#687. To: AGAviator (#684)
Strange, the REAL seismic data doesn't agree with your "expert" interpretation... 
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#688. To: AGAviator (#684)
Speak for yourself and your LIAR_MOVEMENT "experts".
Liar and loser.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#689. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#682)
I don't do dictation from a brainless fukwit prima donna. You'll get my info the way I decide to present it, not the way you demand it by stomping your feet. You're ignorant of basic facts, like a large fast moving plane crashing into a building at 400+ mph makes that building collapse, and are so confused about physics you allege two contradictory and mutually exclusive theories of strutural elasticity at the same time.
You just couldn't answer a VERY simple question by typing in a number
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#690. To: FormerLurker (#687)
Strange you want to put up a chart to obfuscate and deny what's plain as day on a video showing both Tower collapses from start to finish and the number of elapsed seconds of time. Actually not strange. You throw in irrrelevant and tangential information every time you have any message at all.
Strange, the REAL seismic data doesn't agree with your "expert" interpretation...
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#691. To: AGAviator, (#685)
so that is the best you factaphobics can muster. if you could physically bob and weave like you have on the subject of the rate of fall of the WTC north and south towers you'd be a contender. the oxygen depredation you've suffered from having your head up your back side has taken a major toll.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#692. To: AGAviator (#690)
Anybody can claim any time they want on YouTube. Now if a credible university were to have analyzed frame by frame the actual collapse from start to finish, and accounted for the cadence of the video tape itself, then it would be credible. Your LIAR_movement pal's analysis doesn't hold any weight, especially when he concocts seismic data which doesn't agree with Columbia University's data.
Strange you want to put up a chart to obfuscate and deny what's plain as day on a video showing both Tower collapses from start to finish and the number of elapsed seconds of time.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#693. To: AGAviator (#690)
Oh wait, was that seismic data he was trying to show or just some waves on an oscilloscope? Hell, I could rig up a scope and take a video of it, making it show whatever I wanted it to show. EPIC FAIL.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#694. To: AGAviator (#690)
It sure don't look like "pancakes" had anything to do with what happened to the WTC towers.. 
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#695. To: AGAviator (#689)
But I bet you do dick.
I don't do dictation from a brainless fukwit prima donna.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#696. To: AGAviator (#690)
Regardless of the extra few seconds of collapse time in terms of free fall velocity, the towers surely don't look like anything "pancaked", they look like they were pulverized to dust from top to bottom...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#697. To: AGAviator (#689)
BTW, if you feel that your source on YouTube is a "brainless fukwit prima donna", why did you bother posting his video?
I don't do dictation from a brainless fukwit prima donna.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#698. To: FormerLurker (#697)
it's liar movement bob and weave, post any kind of drivel to avoid the truth. now it seems even bucky has bowed out, passed out whatever, leaving ag the lone defender of the official fairy tale.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#699. To: FormerLurker (#696)
More changing the subject. You have been proven wrong on free fall. Deal with it.
Regardless of the extra few seconds of collapse time in terms of free fall velocity,
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#700. To: IRTorqued (#691)
More trash talk. Zero proof. Loser. Psychotic.
Tthe oxygen depredation you've suffered from having your head up your back side has taken a major toll.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#701. To: AGAviator (#699)
Excuse me? I said that the towers fell at CLOSE to free fall speed, YOU are the one that kept insisting that people were saying that they fell at free fall speed, where nobody here ever said they did.
More changing the subject. You have been proven wrong on free fall. Deal with it.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#702. To: AGAviator (#699)
YOU changed the subject LONG ago here, by bringing up EVERY damn thing you could think of OTHER than the subject of this thread. I'm simply responding to your lies and false claims.
More changing the subject.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#703. To: FormerLurker (#701)
That's what the manual says to do maybe...
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#704. To: AGAviator (#700)
What it comes down to cupcake is the fact that the towers did NOT pancake as you claim, and they were brought down with controlled demolition.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#705. To: FormerLurker (#701)
A dodge and an excuse a minute. Free fall is supposed to be evidence of a conspiracy. Do you have the evidence of free fall or don't you, weasely dissembler?
Said that the towers fell at CLOSE to free fall speed,
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#706. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#701)
I think the term I used is near freefall speed. The problem with the Septics is that they insist upon distorting what other people say. It is like you say one thing and then filtered through their biases it becomes something different.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#707. To: wudidiz (#703)
When all else fails, accuse the opposite side of whatever you're guilty of, I'm sure it's in that manual somewhere..
That's what the manual says to do maybe...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#708. To: AGAviator (#705)
Read the fucking thread from start to finish moron, NOBODY claimed the towers fell at free fall speed, they fell at CLOSE TO or NEAR free fall speeds.
Do you have the evidence of free fall or don't you, weasely dissembler?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#709. To: FormerLurker (#704)
Tell your phony story to people who believe in UFO abductions. Nobody else is going to give a $hit.
What it comes down to cupcake is the fact that the towers did NOT pancake as you claim, and they were brought down with controlled demolition.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#710. To: AGAviator (#700)
yes you are a psychotic loser if there was even an iota of truth to the official fairy tale there would be an investigation that answered all the questions unlike the farce baalzabush had to be dragged into kicking and screaming where not only were questions not answered entire issues like the collapse of WTC 7 were ignored completely.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#711. To: AGAviator (#705)
You're own video claims 15 seconds, where 9 seconds is free fall speed. 15 seconds to totally turn 110 floors of concrete and steel to dust, and you think that's normal, eh?
Do you have the evidence of free fall or don't you, weasely dissembler?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#712. To: AGAviator (#709)
The only phony story here is that which spins from your fingers. You are full of insults and not much else. You have ZERO in the way of intelligent discussion, and close to zero in the way of facts, and those you HAVE brought up are either misrepresented or outright lies.
Tell your phony story to people who believe in UFO abductions
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#713. To: FormerLurker (#708)
Read my question. Do you have the evidence of controlled demolition from free fall collapse speeds, or don't you, weasely dissembler? State what it is if you claim it. Because everybody else thinks you're a fringe case.OBODY claimed the towers fell at free fall speed, they fell at CLOSE TO or NEAR free fall speeds.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#714. To: Original_Intent (#706)
AGLiar KNOWS what we said, he's just doing his standard twist and shout dance.
It is like you say one thing and then filtered through their biases it becomes something different.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#715. To: FormerLurker (#712) (Edited)
I've posted 5 times more links than you have, lying SOS. You just repeat zombielike slogans, deny everything else out of hand, and throw in word dumps at the end ,to try to conflate the issue even further.
You have ZERO in the way of intelligent discussion, and close to zero in the way of facts, and those you HAVE brought up are either misrepresented or outright lies.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#716. To: FormerLurker (#709)
ag of the liar movement is still suffering from the butt diddling the greys gave him the last time he went fish from that forgotten dock on some nameless bayou in mississippi.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#717. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#706) (Edited)
Where's the evidence that CD's were done, if freefall speeds weren't actually achieved and recorded, shyster loser.
The term I used is near freefall speed
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#718. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#714)
AGLiar KNOWS what we said, he's just doing his standard twist and shout dance. C'mon baaaby let's do the twist. Another term for it, and not a complementary one, is "logic chopping" i.e., twisting the logic and facts to an invalid conclusion and then standing their beaming as if he had just invented the Edsel.
It is like you say one thing and then filtered through their biases it becomes something different.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#719. To: AGAviator (#713)
EVERYONE on this forum believes you are a psychopath and a professional liar, except for your fellow idiots buck and turtle. READ what is written, not what you imagine in your delusional brain. YOU have posted a video which claims 15 seconds as a collapse time, which I have asked you to post in terms of a number for the past day or so, yet you found it necessary to post a video to provide that simple two digit value. Actual free fall time would be 9.22 seconds. So it's pretty obvious that even the exaggerated collapse time in the video which YOU posted is pretty damn close to the free fall velocity, which is what I had been saying all along. Refer to ANY post of mine on this thread or ANYWHERE else where I've ever said differently. So don't put words in my mouth asshole.
State what it is if you claim it. Because everybody else thinks you're a fringe case.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#720. To: AGAviator (#717)
Do you speak English?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#721. To: Original_Intent (#718)
Looks like no proof prompts another word dump, loser.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#722. To: AGAviator (#715)
what you've done is post a bunch of crap in an effort to dodge the reality that the official fairy tale is a lie because you are a liar movement member in shill standing.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#723. To: IRTorqued (#716)
That's probably why he keeps bringing up alien abductions, it's probably one of those hidden memories slipping into his thought process, if there IS any thought process going on...
ag of the liar movement is still suffering from the butt diddling the greys gave him the last time he went fish from that forgotten dock on some nameless bayou in mississippi.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#724. To: FormerLurker (#719) (Edited)
No $hithead, 15 seconds and 22 seconds are nowhere close to 9 seconds. They're an order of magnitude slower. You lose.
So it's pretty obvious that even the exaggerated collapse time in the video which YOU posted is pretty damn close to the free fall velocity, which is what I had been saying all along
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#725. To: IRTorqued (#722)
Go stand on a street corner and talk that $hit, see how long you last, loser.
effort to dodge the reality that the official fairy tale is a lie because you are a liar movement member in shill standing.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#726. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, all (#724)
No $hithead, 15 seconds and 28 seconds are nowhere close to 9 seconds. They're an order of magnitude slower. Not to mention that black is the new "white". What a schlimiel.
So it's pretty obvious that even the exaggerated collapse time in the video which YOU posted is pretty damn close to the free fall velocity, which is what I had been saying all along
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#727. To: AGAviator (#724)
15 seconds IS very close to 9.22 if you're talking about the fact it only took 6 extra seconds to totally destroy a 110 story skyscraper than it would have taken a ball to fall through thin air. Your own video claims 22 seconds for the other collapse, not 28. You can't even get your disinfo straight.
No $hithead, 15 seconds and 28 seconds are nowhere close to 9 seconds. They're an order of magnitude slower.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#728. To: Original_Intent (#726)
And truth is a bad word in his world..
Not to mention that black is the new "white".
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#729. To: FormerLurker (#723)
ah, who needs thought process when the have the official fairy tale talking points, the shame of it is ag of the liar movement shamelessly posts what any reasonable person knows to be lies.
but hey he says you lose so I guess that settles it, ag of the liar movement knows lose being the king of the losers his entire pathetic life.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#730. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#727)
The alleged proof of controlled demolitions is free fall speeds. The prep work for controlled demolitions is supposed to make the extra seconds unnecessary, because the programmed explosion timings will get rid of the extra material before it ever gets in the way of a freefall collapse. Try to keep your lies consistent. Six extra seconds is totally unneeded according to controlled demolition theory. If you concede the extra seconds were needed, then you're conceding there was not adequate controlled demolitions prep work done.
15 seconds IS very close to 9.22 if you're talking about the fact it only took 6 extra seconds to totally destroy a 110 story skyscraper
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#731. To: AGAviator (#725)
what are you going to do, give me a mean look? the good thing is retards like you are few and far between and growing scarcer by the day.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#732. To: AGAviator (#724)
Besides the lying and the name calling, you truly ARE an idiot. You have no clue as to what an "order of magnitude" is do you... Basically, it's the power of ten closest to the number in question. Since 9 or 15 or 22 are closer to 10 than 100, the order of magnitude is 10 raised to the first power, which is 101 or 10. An order of magnitude greater would be the next power of ten, 102, or 100. So no, they are ALL in the same magnitude, and 15 is NOT an "order of magnitude greater".
No $hithead, 15 seconds and 28 seconds are nowhere close to 9 seconds. They're an order of magnitude slower.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#733. To: AGAviator (#730)
Says who, you? Post a link to anyone's post here who have said that.
The alleged proof of controlled demolitions is free fall speeds.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#734. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, IRTorqued, all (#728)
And truth is a bad word in his world.. So it would seem. I can understand people disagreeing, and even doing so rationally and with grace. That also seems to be a foreign concept to him. It is an absolutist dictum: You must beeleef der Ohfishal Story. That ist an hoarder! While one can pick at some of the evidence there are too many easily observable datums which individually are in conflict with the "Official Conspiracy Theory™", but when they are taken as a group they paint a very damning picture. Methinks that AGGravator doth protest too much. He knows the "Official Fairy Tale®" is bogus, and I think half of what is driving him crazy is the knowledge that he is defending a lie and aiding murdering criminals who coldly murdered 3,000 people to create a political climate where they could then kill another 3 to 5 million. That has got to be an awful weight on one's conscience.
Not to mention that black is the new "white".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#735. To: AGAviator (#730)
Do you really think it would have only taken 6 seconds to destroy a 110 story building WITHOUT explosives? That's the extra time it took from a ball falling through thin air to the 110 story building "collapsing".
The prep work for controlled demolitions is supposed to make the extra seconds unnecessary, because the programmed explosion timings will get rid of the extra material before it ever gets in the way of a freefall collapse.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#736. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#735)
"disintegrating" is more like it.
"collapsing"
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#737. To: AGAviator (#730)
BTW slick, IF the towers HAD fallen at freefall speed then it WOULD be obvious to all but the most brain dead that explosives WERE used. A better method would be to delay the explosions slightly in order to avoid that problem.
Try to keep your lies consistent. Six extra seconds is totally unneeded according to controlled demolition theory. If you concede the extra seconds were needed, then you're conceding there was not adequate controlled demolitions prep work done.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#738. To: All, *9-11* (#736) (Edited)
"The building collapsed to dust..."
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#739. To: Original_Intent (#734)
Myself, I don't think AGLiar HAS a conscience. In fact, he's probably pretty proud of himself in that he's complicit in the deaths of millions of innocent men, women, and children.
He knows the "Official Fairy Tale®" is bogus, and I think half of what is driving him crazy is the knowledge that he is defending a lie and aiding murdering criminals who coldly murdered 3,000 people to create a political climate where they could then kill another 3 to 5 million. That has got to be an awful weight on one's conscience.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#740. To: wudidiz (#738)
That is one of the things that fueled speculation that a vibratory weapon of some sort, possibly some sort of Tesla Scalar device, was used to aid the collapse. Dust does less damage to other buildings than chunks of concrete. No one has ever really been able to explain why much of the building's concrete underwent that change. Sure there was a lot of energy set loose with the collapse, but while that would create some dust friction from colliding masses alone does not seem to account for it. Nor the pyroclastic clouds.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#741. To: wudidiz (#738)
Yep...
"The building collapsed to dust..."
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#742. To: Original_Intent (#740)
Were you able to watch the short video?
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#743. To: FormerLurker (#739)
A pretty grim pronouncement. Still, even with a hardened criminal there is a conscience and a soul buried under that mountain of justifications as to why it is alright. Deep down inside a criminal knows he is a criminal, and however buried dirty hands make for uneasy sleep. That is why, I believe, a lot of criminals are either junkies or drunks. Look at "Pills" Limbaugh - despite all that money he is still not a happy man and has to have a drug habit to live with himself.
Myself, I don't think AGLiar HAS a conscience. In fact, he's probably pretty proud of himself in that he's complicit in the deaths of millions of innocent men, women, and children.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#744. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, *9-11* (#741) (Edited)
Wow. You can see the core columns still standing there before they disintegrate into dust. (At approx 1:11) Amazing. OI, you should watch this one if you can.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#745. To: wudidiz (#742)
No, it would take he a half hour to load it on dial-up, but I have looked at enough stills, and some footage I took the time to download, to know what occurred. Is there something new in this one?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#746. To: wudidiz (#744)
Okay, but I'll have to do it tomorrow. I'm going to bed here in a minute.
OI, you should watch this one if you can.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#747. To: Original_Intent (#745)
It's the clip of a fireman saying they found nothing, no phones, no computers no desks, no nothing. Just dust.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#748. To: Original_Intent (#743)
Psychopaths don't have a conscience. That's why as children they enjoy killing little puppies, kittens, and later on in life move up to larger animals, such as men, women, and children.
Still, even with a hardened criminal there is a conscience and a soul buried under that mountain of justifications
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#749. To: wudidiz (#747)
Interesting. If everything was turned to dust that really does raise the spectre of the use of some type of vibratory weapon that breaks things down at a near molecular level. Very high tech stuff which you would find only in the black budget research.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#750. To: Original_Intent (#749)
Leuren Moret says it's fourth generation nukes.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#751. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz (#746)
Yeah OI, you really should watch the one I posted, it's pretty revealing in that the entire tower just turned to dust. Sorry I didn't ping you, I thought you'd see it.
Okay, but I'll have to do it tomorrow. I'm going to bed here in a minute.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#752. To: Original_Intent (#749)
I strongly recommend downloading this if you can
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#753. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#751)
Did you see the core columns at about 1:00 to 1:11? It's so obvious. They fucking disintegrate.
it's pretty revealing in that the entire tower just turned to dust.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#754. To: wudidiz (#750)
Something like that might have been used on the foundation, but it still doesn't account for the dust. The microfine dust suggests molecular disassociation and the only thing I can think of that would do that would be some form of scalar device or ultrasonics, but I don't think ultrasonics would have sufficient range unless they were actually inside the towers.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#755. To: Original_Intent (#754)
Two things cause pyroclastic clouds. Volcanoes and nukes.
but it still doesn't account for the dust.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#756. To: FormerLurker (#751)
Ho problem. Yes I'll watch - just not tonight I'm about to fall asleep in my chair and I don't want to sleep till noon. ;-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#757. To: Original_Intent (#754)
The Finnish Military Expert says it was planted in the elevator shaft. This would explain the columns disintegrating. The blast went straight up.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#758. To: All (#757)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#759. To: wudidiz (#755)
Two things cause pyroclastic clouds. Volcanoes and nukes. Point granted. I have long suggested that the only thing that I can think of that account for the pools of molten steel in the debris 6 to 8 weeks after the day of the attack is radioactive heating. If I recall correctly NYC passed an ordnance making Geiger Counters in private hands illegal in the city.
but it still doesn't account for the dust.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#760. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent (#753)
It's so obvious. They fucking disintegrate. It certainly had nothing to do with "pancakes".
Did you see the core columns at about 1:00 to 1:11?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#761. To: FormerLurker (#760)
How would you describe what you saw happen to the core columns in the video at 1:00 to 1:14?
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#762. To: Original_Intent (#759)
They nuked New York and hardly anyone even realizes it.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#763. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent (#761) (Edited)
I wouldn't say nuke, I'd be leaning more towards a resonant frequency weapon or something on that idea.
How would you describe what you saw happen to the core columns in the video at 1:00 to 1:14?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#764. To: FormerLurker (#763)
OI can't watch the video. I asked you to please describe what you saw happen to the core columns.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#765. To: All (#764)
Everybody gets all weird anytime I mention nukes around here.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#766. To: wudidiz (#764)
What I saw was the tower literally turn to dust, as well as the core of the building without any other external force after they were exposed by the rest of the building disintegrating.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#767. To: wudidiz (#765)
Not saying it wasn't some exotic sort of nuke that initiated the collapse, it's just that you asked my opinion on what I thought of the core, and I gave you my opinion.
Everybody gets all weird anytime I mention nukes around here.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#768. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, *9-11* (#763)
400+ first responder radiation cancers indicate MICRO FUSION HYDROGEN devices may have been used to remove the internal steel framework and collapse the towers. The aftermath of the twin towers demolition reveals a heat source which is not even addressed by the official 911 Commission's report. Video tape shows bright explosive flashes. Nearby cars are turned into charred wrecks but not crushed by falling debris. A military expert in Finland concludes that small nuclear devices were involved in the destruction of the twin towers.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#769. To: FormerLurker (#767)
No, I asked you what you saw happen to the core as you were watching the video. That is, did you as I did watch them literally and quite clearly disintegrate?
you asked my opinion on what I thought of the core, and I gave you my opinion.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#770. To: wudidiz (#768)
If you set the resolution to high on the video I posted, and expand it to full screen, you can see a myraid number of bright momentary flashes within the dust. I don't know if those are explosions, or something else...
Video tape shows bright explosive flashes.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#771. To: FormerLurker (#769)
At about 1:00 to 1:15 they are standing there, the vertical steel core columns and they disintegrate and disappear.
That is, did you as I did watch them literally and quite clearly disintegrate?
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#772. To: FormerLurker (#770)
I don't know if those are explosions, or something else... Nevertheless, everything else points to the use of an exotic explosive device. Especially the vaporization of 4 foot thick steel columns.
you can see a myraid number of bright momentary flashes within the dust.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#773. To: wudidiz (#771)
Yes I saw disintegration, but they didn't quite totally disappear at that point, the camera was tilting up and down, and at 1:15 it dips down towards the cloud of dust, and when tilted back up you can't tell if the core is gone or if it's just obscured by the dust cloud.
At about 1:00 to 1:15 they are standing there, the vertical steel core columns and they disintegrate and disappear.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#774. To: FormerLurker (#773)
You have it on full screen?
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#775. To: wudidiz (#772)
I'd say that's probably true, and why they want people to think the idea of anything other than what they claim to be true is crazy.
Nevertheless, everything else points to the use of an exotic explosive device.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#776. To: wudidiz (#774)
I've ran it on full screen, yep.
You have it on full screen?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#777. To: wudidiz (#774)
The video was originally posted many posts back, right about the time AGLiar went into overdrive. Apparently he wanted to obscure the video by driving it off the current page. I think I'll post it as it's own thread, just so that everyone here can see it.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#778. To: FormerLurker (#773)
Yes, I see exactly what you mean. I'm sure it's gone. I saw what looked like a trace of it at the top at about 1:15 and then of course when the dust does settle it's simply not there. As is evident in any pictures of ground zero of that height.
but they didn't quite totally disappear at that point, the camera was tilting up and down, and at 1:15 it dips down towards the cloud of dust, and when tilted back up you can't tell if the core is gone or if it's just obscured by the dust cloud.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#779. To: FormerLurker (#777)
I like this narrator's creepy monotone like maybe he took one too many valium. Or one too many of something.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#780. To: wudidiz (#778)
Posted it as a new thread...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#781. To: Critter (#485)
Great work, Critter.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#782. To: AGAviator (#161) (Edited)
You: Judicial Watch video #1 shows the plane at 1:27, and then at the next frame #129 the crash has already taken place. Judicial Watch Video #2 shows the plane tail above at 0:26 above the tan pylon with the body being obscured by the pylon but trailing a white smoke spiral below and to the right of the tail and pylon. Very imaginative video you posted but I meant that strange thing suspended up in the air and that shiny thing on the ground and something that looks like a moving target from the fire and tiny little plane-like things flying from the left of the screen towards the blast area -- that sort of stuff but nevermind all that for now. Let's go back to the question you've avoided on why there's no engine- noise in the background of those alleged phone calls from alleged planes. Answer that first, if you can, plz.
Me: Would you care to comment on the strange stuff in this video recently released from the Pentagon that was aired on the "MSM" news:
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#783. To: GreyLmist, AGAviator (#153)
Whatever hit the pentagon appears at about :25 to :27 if paused it can clearly be seen. It is very low to the ground so that if it was an airliner there would have been damage to the lawn. It is sharp on the front like a missile. It doesn't look like an airliner. Too small anyway.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#784. To: buckeroo (#235) (Edited)
Creepy. From various sources: Daffodil - Narcissus pseudonarcissus; narcissistic. asphodel 1590s, from L. asphodelus , from Gk. asphodelos, of unknown origin (see daffodil). Taken in poetic use for a mythical deathless flower that overspreads the Elysian meadows. The name 'daffodil' is thought to be derived from the Greek 'asphodel' - a flower which doesn't look anything like the daffodil. Asphodels were associated with the dead, and were often planted around graves. One section of the Greek afterworld was called Asphodel Meadows; this was essentially a plain of asphodels, and was where the souls of those people who were equally good and bad ended up - in between the Elysian Fields (similar to Heaven) and Tartarus (similar to Hell). Asphodel Meadows was depicted as a land of neutrality, a less perfect version of life on earth, and a place that upon entry individuals lose their identities and become machine-like.
[Sen. Ted Kennedy] began by presenting me with a limited-edition print; it was a vase of bright daffodils, a copy of a painting he had created for his wife, Victoria, and given to her on their wedding day. The print was inscribed to me and dated September 11, 2001.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#785. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas (#396) (Edited)
I suspect that name is like a coded "joke" and that's why I'm flagging abraxas to this posting who asked a galaxy question. Han(plane)jour en plein jour Han - Chinese: The Milky Way; The Heavenly River
"Hanjour"
Pronunciation: ä-n;-pla-n;-zhür
French : in broad day
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#786. To: RickyJ (#446)
Excerpts from: View Is Great When Flying Over the Hudson, but Changes Come Fast - NYTimes.com the low-altitude turbulence that can make the sky feel like a potholed dirt road. [sic] hard winds, which can swirl dangerously around the canyons between Manhattan skyscrapers, a phenomenon known as eddy turbulence. For all these reasons, Mr. Sanders does not see the skies over the river as an appropriate destination for inexperienced pilots or those unfamiliar with crowded air space. ___________________ There's a lot of discussions about wind effects on the WTC but not much about the wind current effects on the alleged planes, so I just wanted to post that to get it on the record.
The towers were built to sway in strong winds by design
http://www.nytim es .com/2009/08/12/nyregion/12flight.html
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#787. To: wudidiz (#783) (Edited)
It is sharp on the front like a missile. It doesn't look like an airliner. Too small anyway. I'm not entirely sure that the wall wasn't renovated to explode inward for some planned exercise at some point but do you think what appears in the video could have been photoshopped in or might have been something propelled towards the wall on a portable track and that's why the lawn doesn't look heat damaged from exhaust?
Whatever hit the pentagon appears at about :25 to :27 if paused it can clearly be seen. It is very low to the ground so that if it was an airliner there would have been damage to the lawn.
-------
"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#788. To: wudidiz (#772) (Edited)
Carbon arc gougers are like welding erasers. They sound like explosions, vaporize metal, and the residue might even be mistaken for nanothermite. Edit to add: Not saying that would explain everything about the building collapses but could have been part of it, imo.
the vaporization of 4 foot thick steel columns.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#789. To: buckeroo (#653)
Oh bs! They take the plans, engineering studies and drawings of two of the tallest buildings in the world (and WTC 7 would be the tallest building in about 33 states iirc) and what? Light a campfire with them and toast marshmallows? Get real, buck, or as close to it as you can. The original construction is all done, years ago. What does it matter where any of the technical people are now? The documented plans are gone.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#790. To: A K A Stone (#661)
Interesting theory and very possible I guess. What I know for sure is that it didn't fall because some debris from the other buildings hit it, the Magickal Jet Fuel™ didn't melt it and cause it to fall and the office fires that have never brought down any other high rise didn't bring that one down either.
# rupertmja1 1 month ago Does no one think like me? Think about this. WTC7 fell in the afternoon. If it was dynamited, and it certainly seems so to me, why/ My theory is that the plane that crashed in a field ... think ... it crashed en route ... so ... en route to where. Methinks WTC7. If it hit WTC7 it too could have been blown up in the morning on schedule along with WTC1 and 2. But it wasn't hit - which must haveŒ79; given the 'planners' a big dilemma of leaving a building full of TNT out there.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#791. To: IRTorqued (#677)
LOL!!!
the liar movement members have more excuses than Doans has pills of the three retards of the liar movement on this web site only turtle has the sense to hide in his shell. bucky's posts are akin to whiny school girl drivel who keeps getting her butt handed to her in a did to did not contest.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#792. To: FormerLurker (#694)
No, we have come up with another couple of possibilities. buck said that it might be that Santa Claus set out early and fell out of his sleigh and hit 7 and/or the Easter Bunny got mad and threw an egg at it. But suppose Santa hit the big ones first and just bounced off onto 7 or the Easter Bunny threw not one, but THREE, eggs? That would account for it!
It sure don't look like "pancakes" had anything to do with what happened to the WTC towers..
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#793. To: Original_Intent (#734)
But you are making an assumption of a fact not in evidence. You are assuming that he actually has a conscience but folks who defend what the government did that day probably have less of a conscience than Ted Bundy or Jeffrey Dahmer.
Methinks that AGGravator doth protest too much. He knows the "Official Fairy Tale®" is bogus, and I think half of what is driving him crazy is the knowledge that he is defending a lie and aiding murdering criminals who coldly murdered 3,000 people to create a political climate where they could then kill another 3 to 5 million. That has got to be an awful weight on one's conscience.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#794. To: AGAviator (#643)
Excellent post. I guess our fellow posters can't read.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#795. To: wudidiz, buckeroo, turtle (#783)
Corect, something can be seen at that time in the video tape. It is traveling too fast for the camera to capture clearly. As far as damage to the lawn, ground effect is strongest right above the earth because of a cushion of air squeezed between the fuselage and the ground.
Whatever hit the pentagon appears at about :25 to :27 if paused it can clearly be seen. It is very low to the ground so that if it was an airliner there would have been damage to the lawn.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#796. To: GreyLmist (#785)
Very interesting, GreyLmist. I'm not believing in any coincidences, so I'm with you on this name analysis. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#797. To: wudidiz (#783)
I'm going with the Santa Sleigh theory. : )
It doesn't look like an airliner. Too small anyway.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#798. To: abraxas (#797)
OMG!!! You mean Santa's dead?!?!?
I'm going with the Santa Sleigh theory. : )
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams
#799. To: AGAviator (#795)
Exactly, this is why we commonly find that the ground is in perfect shape near and around plane crashes, which contradicts that eight miles of wreckage at the other site. These pilots were SO astounding that they could manouver a 757 like a Porshe, turning it on a dime, ignoring the G Force. Astounding. This "ground effect" lures the question of why there ever is ANY plane crashes, other than the ones that impact into objects like buildings, because the plane could just keep on flying in this "ground effect" for miles and miiles until it runs out of gas and gently touches down.
As far as damage to the lawn, ground effect is strongest right above the earth because of a cushion of air squeezed between the fuselage and the ground.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#800. To: Turtle (#798) (Edited)
I think the elves had taken it on a joy ride, test run for the busy season. Oh yeah, that's EIGHT HUNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNERT!!!!!!!!
OMG!!! You mean Santa's dead?!?!?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#801. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#518)
Well stated. Now that I technically cleaned up and explained the mess about the thread topic "the cabin door remaining closed", FormerLurker is coming back asking questions about "my expertise." And an endless spin cycle.
Just more accusations, denials of thousands of other people's far more fact-based research, and attacking people who don't side with them 100% instead of the problem itself.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#802. To: James Deffenbach (#789)
Where are the documented detailed plans, charts, blueprints, calculations, white papers, change documentation, BOMs, cost estimates, scheduling, notes of design reviews, ECR,ECOs and quality test data stored? And don't forget engineering and government sign off documentation. Hey pal ..... you lose. Have a ball.
Oh bs! They take the plans, engineering studies and drawings of two of the tallest buildings in the world (and WTC 7 would be the tallest building in about 33 states iirc) and what? Light a campfire with them and toast marshmallows? Get real, buck, or as close to it as you can.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#803. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#724) (Edited)
You lose. Actually, way up the post, I recall FormerLurker saying the collapse was near zero seconds. You are correct when considering the ratio of 15/0 ... I would call it infinite, myself. edit: Explain how it took virtually 0 seconds to break every floor truss and smash every external and internal column of both WTC towers. FormerLurker posted on 2010-07-16 14:08:02 ET Reply Trace Private Reply 15 seconds and 22 seconds are nowhere close to 9 seconds. They're an order of magnitude slower.
#502. To: AGAviator (#479)
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#804. To: GreyLmist (#785)
That would be just like the sick sob's who perpetrated this to think it was all a joke. Must make their sycophants and water carriers really happy.
I suspect that name is like a coded "joke" and that's why I'm flagging abraxas to this posting who asked a galaxy question.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#805. To: buckeroo (#802)
I haven't lost anything. You know better than the $#it you're posting unless you are a complete imbecile. You have to know that all those plans and drawings were not thrown away and that the people who planned it and designed it would have copies of the plans. And if they are already dead their heirs would have copies of all of that.
Hey pal ..... you lose. Have a ball.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#806. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#737)
You lose. Once the upper support structure lost stability, the upper floors collapsed straight down. It took no external explosives at all or controlled demolition as you call it. So show in any photograph or video that the towers were brought down by intentionally placed explosives. You can't other than what "appears" as debis or previously pulverized mass from the upper floors cascading the effect upon the lower floors.
To: AGAviator BTW slick, IF the towers HAD fallen at freefall speed then it WOULD be obvious to all but the most brain dead that explosives WERE used.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#807. To: James Deffenbach (#805)
Where is this magical, mythical vault of official documentation controlled and stored? In your mind?
You have to know that all those plans and drawings were not thrown away and that the people who planned it and designed it would have copies of the plans.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#808. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#737)
A better method would be to delay the explosions slightly in order to avoid that problem. Oh, this is getting so rich. If the facts are said to match the model, then it's a conspiracy, and if the facts don't match the model, it's still a conspiracy but one in which "they" don't want a too-obvious match with the model. Woo hoo!!
IF the towers HAD fallen at freefall speed then it WOULD be obvious to all but the most brain dead that explosives WERE used.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#809. To: buckeroo (#807)
You're a retard if you think they threw all that away.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#810. To: buckeroo (#806)
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#811. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, James James Deffenbach (#808)
If you want an authoritative opinion about the "crush down phase" of the twin tower collapse (free of charge and on-line), check this out: Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions by Zdenfk P. Bažant, F.ASCE1; and Mathieu Verdure ... pretty cool reading.
Woo hoo!!
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#812. To: James Deffenbach (#810)
So, that picture/commentary undeniably and unquestionably proves that explosives other than the initial trigger mechanism (de plane! de plane!) caused the collapse?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#813. To: buckeroo (#812)
But when pictures/commentary conclude there was no CD, they're undeniably and unquestionably products of the masters of special effects....
So, that picture/commentary undeniably and unquestionably proves that explosives other than the initial trigger mechanism (de plane! de plane!) caused the collapse?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#814. To: AGAviator (#813)
I am amazed at this thread. You took a rather bold approach to provide a factual explanation towards the collapse..... and you withstood the onslaught of piles of posts that attempted to rile you up. Man, do you have patience.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#815. To: buckeroo (#812)
The plane impacts didn't cause the towers to fall. The fires didn't either. As you have been told (repeatedly) the buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a plane collision and the subsequent fires. The engineers would have had to take that into account since the Empire State Building had been hit by a plane some years earlier and well before construction ever began on the WTC towers (the crash into the Empire State Building happened in 1945 and it was hit by a B-25--and it had fuel too and the building caught on fire BUT it didn't collapse!).
So, that picture/commentary undeniably and unquestionably proves that explosives other than the initial trigger mechanism (de plane! de plane!) caused the collapse?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#816. To: buckeroo (#814)
Man, do you have patience. No, he's got bs and talking points that his masters gave him to squawk. Fine company you're keeping there, buck.
I am amazed at this thread. You took a rather bold approach to provide a factual explanation towards the collapse..... and you withstood the onslaught of piles of posts that attempted to rile you up.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#817. To: James Deffenbach (#815)
I don't care what YOU told me, I have told you the building were designed to handle slow velocity aircraft as in a FOG. BTW, not 757s either.... but a small 707. Your issue is silly. And as for the fires, not a full payload of fuel, another silly issue you bring up.
As you have been told (repeatedly) the buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a plane collision and the subsequent fires.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#818. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#816)
AG has yet to show any variation of FACTS. Thank you.
Fine company you're keeping there, buck.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#819. To: buckeroo (#814)
It's not that hard once you see there's absolutely no merit to the CT arguments and the people pushing them really, truly are laboring under delusions caused by emotional factors. Unlike "scholars" and "truthers" I don't pretend to be a physicist because real world physics is a complex system demanding full discipline and focus. However after outlining mechanics and vectors involved with absorbing impact energy, and also with providing a base for rotating and falling objects, there's no other conclusion than the 2 are mutually exclusive.
You took a rather bold approach to provide a factual explanation towards the collapse..... and you withstood the onslaught of piles of posts that attempted to rile you up.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#820. To: FormerLurker (#674)
There are NO records of any upgrades on AAFLT77 and as a result, the craft must be assumed to NOT have had the later -3 FDR capabilities to include your coveted thread title. You lose. This thread is debunked. Officially: Deregistered Aircraft 1 of 1 Aircraft Description Serial Number 24602 Type Registration Corporation Manufacturer Name BOEING Certificate Issue Date 05/08/1991 Model 757-223 Mode S Code 52072030 Year Manufacturer 1991 Cancel Date 01/14/2002 Reason for Cancellation Destroyed Export To NoneStill waiting for you to post information concerning the data fields recorded on Flight 77's data recorder. Show us the FAA specifications for which data fields are collected, and tie that to the rulings on required upgrades.
Status: - (No safety board investigation) Date: 11 SEP 2001 Time: 09:40 EDT Type: Boeing 757-223 Operator: American Airlines Registration: N644AA C/n / msn: 24602/365 First flight: 1991 Total airframe hrs: 33432 Cycles: 11789 Engines: 2 Rolls Royce RB211-535E4-B Crew: Fatalities: 6 / Occupants: 6 Passengers: Fatalities: 58 / Occupants: 58 Total: Fatalities: 64 / Occupants: 64 Ground casualties: Fatalities: 125 Airplane damage: Written off Airplane fate: Written off (damaged beyond repair) Location: Washington, DC (United States of America) show on map Phase: En route (ENR) Nature: Domestic Scheduled Passenger Departure airport: Washington-Dulles International Airport, DC (IAD/KIAD), United States of America Destination airport: Los Angeles International Airport, CA (LAX/KLAX), United States of America Flightnumber: 77 Narrative: Flight 77 departed Washington-Dulles at 08:10 for Los Angeles. The aircraft was hijacked by five terrorists. The hijackers took over control, reportedly switched off the transponder and changed course to Washington. Last reported data (08:56) show the aircraft flying at FL350 at 458 knots. Course was changed back to Washington and the aircraft descended for the city, approaching from the North. The Boeing reportedly passed overhead the White House and entered a tight 270deg turn, heading for the US Department of Defence building (the Pentagon). It clipped trees and lightposts before slamming into the Southwest face of the Pentagon. An explosion occurred and the building caught fire.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#821. To: buckeroo (#817) (Edited)
Your issue is silly. And as for the fires, not a full payload of fuel, another silly issue you bring up. Are you saying that the planes that hit the towers (1 and 2) were full of fuel? More of your bs. A full tank was not necessary for the scheduled flights and they don't fill them up unnecessarily. More fuel carried, fewer paying passengers. And you are not arguing with me about the design of the buildings but the engineers. Get it through your skull if you can, those buildings did not fall because of the planes hitting them--none hit WTC7--and no other steel-framed skyscraper has EVER fallen because of fire though many have burned longer and hotter. No steel framed high-rise building has ever collapsed due to fire - due to the high temperatures that would be required to weaken structural steel past it's critical safety margin - even though very large, very hot, and very long-lasting fires have ravaged many steel-structure high-rise buildings. These buildings are all in use today: • Caracas, Venezuela, Oct, 2004, 56 story building, burned for 17 hours over 26 floorsI don't care what YOU told me, I have told you the building were designed to handle slow velocity aircraft as in a FOG. BTW, not 757s either.... but a small 707.
• Los Angeles, May 1988, 1st Interstate Bank, 62 stories, burned for 3.5 hours over 5 floors
• Philadelphia, Feb, 1991, Meridian Plaza, 38 stories, burned for 18 hours over 8 floors
• New York, Aug, 1970, New York Plaza, 50 stories, burned for six hours
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#822. To: buckeroo (#818)
Doubtful he has posted any FACTS but I have his dumb@$$ on my clown filter. And you keep arguing stupid stuff after you have been told better over and over you will be joining him.
AG has yet to show any variation of FACTS. Thank you.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#823. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo, turtle (#815) (Edited)
Unlike the jets at WTC, much of the slow flying B-25 didn't penetrate to the center of the building.
nd it was hit by a B-25--and it had fuel too and the building caught on fire BUT it didn't collapse!).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#824. To: buckeroo (#820)
No, it isn't. There are other collateral issues which have been presented in this thread and which you cannot address. And you have made yourself look like a shill or fool or both.
You lose. This thread is debunked.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#825. To: James Deffenbach (#824)
Like what? The core issues otherwise known as root cause analysis about the thread subject and title are debunked. What other issues are there? Did Hanjour shit or piss his pants before or after screaming ALLAH ALLAH! intentionally murdering hundreds of people? I post with both accuracy and precision, pal. Tell me what "detail" is missed ... about AAFLT77 on 9/11/2001.
There are other collateral issues which have been presented in this thread and which you cannot address.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#826. To: AGAviator (#823)
Exactly.
Unlike the jets at WTC, much of the slow flying B-25 didn't penetrate to the center of the building.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#827. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#822)
Are you afraid of AG's posts? Is dat y u hide yor wittle eyes?
Doubtful he has posted any FACTS but I have his [AGAviator] dumb@$$ on my clown filter.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#828. To: buckeroo (#825) (Edited)
You post crap. Lots of it. But the evidence is on the thread for anyone who wants to look at it. Fact: The buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a commercial jetliner and at even greater speeds. Fact: No other steel-framed skyscraper(s) before or since 9/11 have fell into their own footprints due to fire. In fact, many that have burned longer and hotter are still around today and still being used.
I post with both accuracy and precision, pal.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#829. To: buckeroo (#827)
No, it's because I think he is a moron and a shill. And I am beginning to think you might love the government a bit too much too.
Are you afraid of AG's posts? Is dat y u hide yor wittle eyes?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#830. To: James Deffenbach (#821)
All those hijacked, passenger jet aircraft on 9/11 were diverted from their original courses. In effect, your pansy assed statement is ludicrous: Are you saying that the planes that hit the towers (1 and 2) were full of fuel?
Early on the morning of September 11, 2001, nineteen hijackers took control of four commercial airliners en route to San Francisco and Los Angeles from Boston, Newark, and Washington, D.C. (Washington Dulles International Airport). At 8:46 a.m., American Airlines Flight 11 was crashed into the World Trade Center's North Tower, followed by United Airlines Flight 175 which hit the South Tower at 9:03 a.m.
A full tank was not necessary for the scheduled flights and they don't fill them up unnecessarily. More fuel carried, fewer paying passengers.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#831. To: James Deffenbach (#829)
u wont gib him evn a wittle "peek-a-boo"?
No, it's because I think he is a moron and a shill.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#832. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#828)
I debunked this thread. The other whitewashed discussions on the WTC need to be attended to but not on this thread as it is too long. Why don't you create one? And invite me. :)
You post crap. Lots of it.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#833. To: buckeroo (#830)
A full tank was not necessary for the scheduled flights and they don't fill them up unnecessarily. More fuel carried, fewer paying passengers. You're full of $#it! Full tanks were NOT necessary. How many million gallons of kerosene do you think it takes to fly even across country? Not even the official story/fairy tale claimed they hit with anything like full loads of fuel. The fuel capacity of a Boeing 767 is 23,980 gallons. The 767s used on September 11th were estimated to be carrying about 10,000 gallons of fuel each at the time of impact, only about 40% of the capacity of a 707. Not full there buck. Not even half full. And most of the fuel in the plane that hit last burned up outside in the big fireball.
In effect, your pansy assed statement is ludicrous:
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#834. To: buckeroo (#832)
You did no such thing. You keep posting bs and I am done with you.
I debunked this thread.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#835. To: James Deffenbach (#834)
Asta la vista!
You keep posting bs and I am done with you.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#836. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, christine, all (#834)
You did no such thing. You keep posting bs and I am done with you. buck has declared the argument won by the liar movement. Comical.
I debunked this thread.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#837. To: wudidiz (#836)
Sure, no ping for Ab.....I see how you're rollin' now Wud. And no, "all" isn't good enough. Huummmmfffff!! Did you notice 8 hunnnnnnnnnnnneeeerrrrtttt was all mine? : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#838. To: wudidiz (#836)
Don't liars always claim that they won?
buck has declared the argument won by the liar movement.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#839. To: wudidiz, James Deffenbach, AGAviator, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, christine, all (#836)
I debunked the thread. Now, prove that the data I posted is not factual and does not lead to inevitable conclusion that the article of the thread is factually baseless and riddled with suppositions from an amateur (Stutts) presented as some sort of researcher. Can anyone take me/AGAviator on with FACTS beyond silly shenanigans and wasting time?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#840. To: wudidiz, James Deffenbach, buckeroo, FormerLurker, christine, all (#836)
You did no such thing. You keep posting bs and I am done with you. buck has declared the argument won by the liar movement. Comical. Buck suffers from delusions of adequacy and Sterno poisoning. On another note. I'm currently running through that video you recommended last night. I'll post my notes when I'm done looking it over and trying to pull out as much detail as I can. On another note. I finally found Mad Max's refutation of Thomas Eager's disinfo piece. Here it is in its entirely. The links to the images are dead but the text is still there. WHY DID THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS FALL? A REVIEW OF THOMAS EAGAR'S (MIT) ARTICLE. by MM Sunday, Jul. 20, 2003 at 6:35 PM This article reviews the well known interview of professor Thomas Eagar (of MIT) by Peter Tyson (chief editor of NOVA) concerning the collapse of the World Trade Center towers. It points out many of the errors contained in this interview. In fact, the errors in the interview are so many that one has to conclude that the article is deliberate deception. The Collapse: An Engineer's Perspective This piece by "professor" Eagar and student Musso has to be some sort of record for the greatest number of lies, and points of misdirection, ever strung together in an "engineering" article. Comment is highlighted in red. It wasn't until Dr. Thomas Eagar saw Building 7 of the World Trade Center implode late on the afternoon of September 11th that he understood what had transpired structurally earlier that day as the Twin Towers disintegrated. A professor of materials engineering and engineering systems at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Eagar went on to write an influential paper in the journal of the Minerals, Metals, and Materials Society entitled "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation" (JOM, December 2001). In this interview, Eagar explains the structural failure, what can be done within existing skyscrapers to improve safety, and what he believes the most likely terrorist targets of the future may be. On the left above, is an animated graphic of the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7. This is clearly a controlled demolition. I guess that Eagar realized this too, and concluded that the twin towers were also deliberately demolished. This is probably what he meant when he said that seeing Building 7 implode lead him to understood what had transpired structurally earlier that day as the Twin Towers disintegrated. However, he is not allowed to tell you this. So he produces this piece of misinformation to mislead you. On the right is a graphic of the initial north tower collapse. As you can see, Eagar is correct, both collapses are remarkably similar. Click on the pictures for further information. Animation of truss falling Animation of a floor truss in the World Trade Center giving way. Eagar claims that the collapse of the twin towers was primarily due to failure of certain structural components (pictured in the animated graphic on the left) used to support sections of the concrete floor slabs. He refers to them as trusses. However, the word truss generally refers to the diagonal reinforcement of a rectangular frame, and so can be applied to a wide variety of structures. The items in question, are more correctly called "open web joists" or "bar joists". Eagar supposes, contrary to all evidence, that the fires at the World Trade Center on September 11 were so incredibly hot that the trusses softened and failed as indicated in the animated graphic. It is of utmost importance to his theory, that the fires were considerably hotter than your average office fire, as your average office fire was (by law) considered and planned for by the building designers and, of course, they designed a structure that would not collapse in such a fire. On February 23 1975, their design was put to the test. For on that day an intense fire broke out on the 11th floor of the north tower of the World Trade Center. The fire subsequently spread down to the 9th and up to the 19th floor, but this fire did not cause failure of the trusses (or any other major structural feature). Here is a quote from a news report: "The fire department on arrival (at the World Trade Center) found a very intense fire. There were 125 firemen involved in fighting this fire and 28 sustained injuries from the intense heat and smoke. The cause of the fire is unknown." A fatal flaw in Eagar's theory, is that the tops of the trusses were embedded in the concrete slab, so even if a truss was heated to the point of failure, even if it was dripping molten steel, the concrete slab would still hold the truss up and it could not possibly fall as indicated in the animation. If one truss failed, its load was redistributed to the concrete slab and all the remaining trusses associated with that slab. So the failure of one, or even many trusses, does not lead to overall failure. There is absolutely no way that the trusses could collapse one after the other, as claimed by Eagar. Here is a quote from (a section on the WTC in) Multi-Storey Buildings in Steel [1], by Godfrey "Composite action between the concrete and the steelwork is ensured by extending the diagonal web members of the joists (trusses) through the steel decking and embedding them in the (concrete) slab." Above is a photo of a number of 45 feet (13.5m) long trusses and a buckled steel column after the Broadgate Phase 8 fire (the WTC towers had 35 and 60 foot trusses). The fire occurred while the 14-story high-rise was under construction. Little of the steel was fire protected and the sprinkler system and other active measures were not yet operational. Even though a number of trusses and columns buckled, due to thermal expansion, no collapse was observed at Broadgate. The system of design of the World Trade Center Towers is called tubular framing, since the perimeter frames of the building are designed to act as a cantilevered tube in resisting lateral forces. This design concept (the so-called tube within a tube architecture) has been employed in the construction of many of the world's tallest buildings. These include the John Hancock Center (1105 ft), the Standard Oil of Indiana Building (1125 ft) and the Sears Tower (1450 ft). In fact, it is the standard design for tall buildings. Vital to the structural integrity of these buildings are the composite floor slabs. In fact, if the floors were not composite, the buildings would eventually collapse. Eagar totally ignores the fact that the floor slabs were composite (that is, studs or projections from the steel beams were embedded in the concrete slab) preferring to believe the fiction that the floors just rested upon the beams supporting them. NOVA: After the planes struck and you saw those raging fires, did you think the towers would collapse? Eagar: No. In fact, I was surprised. So were most structural engineers. The only people I know who weren't surprised were a few people who've designed high-rise buildings. This second statement will only be true because designers of high-rise buildings would know for certain that the buildings were deliberately demolished and would consequently, "not be surprised." NOVA: But you weren't surprised that they withstood the initial impacts, is that correct? Eagar: That's right. All buildings and most bridges have what we call redundant design. If one component breaks, the whole thing will not come crashing down. I once worked on a high-rise in New York, for example, that had a nine-foot-high beam that had a crack all the way through one of the main beams in the basement. This was along the approach to the George Washington Bridge. They shored it up and kept traffic from using that area. Some people were concerned the building would fall down. The structural engineers knew it wouldn't, because the whole thing had an egg-crate-like construction. Or you can think of it as a net. If you lose one string on a net, yes, the net is weakened but the rest of the net still works. Traditional design WTC design Earlier skyscrapers (top) had columns spaced evenly across every floor. The World Trade Center (bottom) broke with tradition by having columns only in the central core and along the exterior walls. That's essentially how the World Trade Center absorbed an airplane coming into it. It was somewhat like the way a net absorbs a baseball being thrown against it. This is deliberate misdirection. It would be more accurate to say that the towers absorbed the impact of the planes as a sheet of glass absorbs the impact of a bullet. Note that a baseball does more damage to a window than a bullet (even if we arrange that both have the exactly the same momentum). As we all know, the bullet will make a neat little bullet hole while a baseball will smash most of the glass out. It is the speed (and shape) of the projectile that determines whether the impact damage is localized or spread across a large area. The faster the projectile, the more localized the damage. Other common examples illustrating this effect are, the driving of a nail through a piece of wood, and the firing a bullet through a fencepost. Both are done at speed and thus do only local damage. In both of these examples, the wood just a centimeter or two from the impact point, is essentially undamaged. Similarly, the aircraft impacts were at great speed and severe damage localized to a few floors. If you lose a couple of the columns, that's not the end of the world. It will still stand up. NOVA: The World Trade Center was also designed to take a major wind load hitting from the side. Eagar: Yes. A skyscraper is a long, thin, vertical structure, but if you turned it sideways, it would be like a diving board, and you could bend it on the end. The wind load is trying to bend it like a diving board. It sways back and forth. If you've been on the top of the Sears Tower in Chicago or the Empire State Building on a windy day, you can actually feel it. When I was a student, I visited the observation deck of the Sears Tower, and I went into the restroom there, and I could see the water sloshing in the toilet bowl, because the wind load was causing the whole building to wave in the breeze. NOVA: Are skyscrapers designed that way, to be a little flexible? Eagar: Absolutely. Now, there are different ways to design things. For example, Boeing designs their aircraft wings to flap in the breeze, while McDonnell Douglas used to design a very rigid wing that would not flex as much. You can design it both ways. There are trade-offs, and there are advantages to both ways. "Most buildings are designed to sway in the breeze." Most buildings are designed to sway in the breeze. In fact, one of the big concerns in the early design of the World Trade Center, since it was going to be the tallest building in the world at the time, was that it not sway too much and make people sick. You can get seasick in one of these tall buildings from the wind loads. So they had to do some things to make them stiff enough that people wouldn't get sick, but not so rigid that it could snap if it got too big a load. If something's flexible, it can give; think of a willow tree. If you have a strong wind, you want the building, like the tree, to bend rather than break. NOVA: Brian Clark, one of only four people (at least 18 survived from the impacted floors or above) to get out from above where United 175 hit the South Tower, says that when the plane struck, the building swayed for a full seven to 10 seconds in one direction before settling back, and he thought it was going over. Eagar: That estimate of seven to ten seconds is probably correct, because often big buildings are designed to be stiff enough that the period to go one way and back the other way is 15 or 20 seconds, or even 30 seconds. That keeps people from getting sick. Pancaking Upper floors pancaked down onto lower floors, causing a domino effect that left each building in ruins within ten seconds. NOVA: The Twin Towers collapsed essentially straight down. Was there any chance they could have tipped over? Eagar: It's really not possible in this case. This statement by Eagar is utterly amazing. It is a wonder MIT has not fired him. Given that the south tower did in fact tip over (and quite visibly so). This shows Eagar's desperation. One thing is certain, all buildings, even the World Trade Center towers, will tip over if enough lateral (sideways) force is applied to them. In our normal experience, we deal with small things, say, a glass of water, that might tip over, and we don't realize how far something has to tip proportional to its base. The base of the World Trade Center was 208 feet on a side, and that means it would have had to have tipped at least 100 feet to one side in order to move its center of gravity from the center of the building out beyond its base. The laws of physics do not change. The same laws of physics that tell you a glass of water will tip over, also tell you that (if enough lateral force is applied) large buildings like the World Trade Center towers, will in fact, tip over. You must ask yourself why Eagar chooses to lie about this (he certainly knows the physics, but chooses to tell the world a transparent lie). What Eagar says about the center of gravity is true, however, it does not imply that the building would come straight down, so his statement is just another piece of misdirection. His implication is clearly wrong, as shown by the fact that the south tower did in fact tip over (videos of the south tower collapse clearly show that the top 30, or so, floors tipped over, but this section was being demolished as it fell, so after a few seconds it was reduced to rubble and no longer fell as a unit). Picture of the World Trade Center south tower tipping over. NOVA: Was there any chance they could have tipped over? Eagar: It's really not possible in this case. That would have been a tremendous amount of bending. In a building that is mostly air, as the World Trade Center was, there would have been buckling columns, and it would have come straight down before it ever tipped over. Have you ever seen the demolition of buildings? They blow them up, and they implode. Well, I once asked demolition experts, "How do you get it to implode and not fall outward?" They said, "Oh, it's really how you time and place the explosives." I always accepted that answer, until the World Trade Center, when I thought about it myself. And that's not the correct answer. The correct answer is, there's no other way for them to go but down. They're too big. With anything that massive -- each of the World Trade Center towers weighed half a million tons -- there's nothing that can exert a big enough force to push it sideways. Eagar makes a real ass of himself in this article. To see how much of a fool Eagar is making of himself and his profession, think through the following thought experiment. Take the WTC and remove ten floors, but only say, the eastern half of each floor (so you have a situation analogous to a lumberjack cutting a slot half way through a tree), and imagine how the WTC (tree) would fall. One things for sure, it would not fall straight down. By Eagar's "logic" a tree that is extremely massive must fall down through itself, rather than tip over (because a tree is made of atoms and atoms are mostly empty space). What a dope. Impact Even traveling at hundreds of miles an hour, the planes that struck the World Trade Center did not have enough force to knock the towers over. NOVA: I think some people were surprised when they saw this massive 110-story building collapse into a rubble pile only a few stories tall. Eagar: Well, like most buildings, the World Trade Center was mostly air. It looked like a huge building if you walked inside, but it was just like this room we're in. The walls are a very small fraction of the total room. The World Trade Center collapse proved that with a 110-story building, if 95 percent of it's air, as was the case here, you're only going to have about five stories of rubble at the bottom after it falls. NOVA: You've said that the fire is the most misunderstood part of the World Trade Center collapse. Why? Eagar: The problem is that most people, even some engineers, talk about temperature and heat as if they're identical. In fact, scientifically, they're only related to each other. Temperature tells me the intensity of the heat -- is it 100 degrees, 200 degrees, 300 degrees? The heat tells me how big the thing is that gets hot. I mean, I could boil a cup of water to make a cup of tea, or I could boil ten gallons of water to cook a bunch of lobsters. So it takes a lot more energy to cook the lobsters -- heat is related to energy. That's the difference: We call the intensity of heat the temperature, and the amount of heat the energy. Impact Watch an animation of the Boeing 767 aircraft hitting the North Tower and the rapid spread of the resulting fireball through the building. NOVA: So with the World Trade Center fire, the heat was much greater than might have been expected in a typical fire? Eagar: Right. We had all this extra fuel from the aircraft. Now, there have been fires in skyscrapers before. The Hotel Meridien in Philadelphia had a fire, but it didn't do this kind of damage. Eagar is referring to the One Meridian Plaza fire of February 23-24, 1991, which burnt for 19 hours. Strange how Eagar manages to "forget" the 1975 World Trade Center north tower fire. When he says "it (the One Meridian Plaza fire) didn't do this kind of damage" he means that One Meridian Plaza did not collapse. So here is another example (the first being the World Trade Center North Tower in 1975) of a skyscraper that endured much more serious fires than those of September 11, without collapsing. In fact, before September 11, no steel framed skyscraper had ever collapsed due to fire. However, on September 11, it is claimed that three steel framed skyscrapers (both towers and World Trade Center Seven) collapsed mainly, or totally, due to fire. The above graphic provides us with yet another example of misinformation. The World Trade Center towers were 208 feet wide. Hence, from the graphic we can calculate that the wingspan of the pictured plane is 224 feet, however the actual wingspan of a Boeing 767 is 156 feet. Every trick in the book must be tried to convince the gullible that the aircraft strikes plus fire bought down the towers, otherwise the true culprits behind 9-11 may be discovered. The real damage in the World Trade Center resulted from the size of the fire. Each floor was about an acre, and the fire covered the whole floor within a few seconds. Ordinarily, it would take a lot longer. If, say, I have an acre of property, and I start a brushfire in one corner, it might take an hour, even with a good wind, to go from one corner and start burning the other corner. That's what the designers of the World Trade Center were designing for -- a fire that starts in a wastepaper basket, for instance. By the time it gets to the far corner of the building, it has already burned up all the fuel that was back at the point of origin. So the beams where it started have already started to cool down and regain their strength before you start to weaken the ones on the other side. On September 11th, the whole floor was damaged all at once, and that's really the cause of the World Trade Center collapse. There was so much fuel spread so quickly that the entire floor got weakened all at once, whereas in a normal fire, people should not think that if there's a fire in a high-rise building that the building will come crashing down. This was a very unusual situation, in which someone dumped 10,000 gallons of jet fuel in an instant. There are a number of major problems with Eagar's claims. (1) One complaint is that much of the jet fuel burnt outside the buildings. This was particularly true in the case of the south tower. After the impact nearly all of the jet fuel would have been spread throughout the area as a flammable mist. When this mist ignited it would have emptied the building of almost the entire fuel load, which then "exploded" outside the building. This is exactly what was seen on the videos of the impacts. (2) If any quantity of liquid jet fuel did manage to accumulate in the building, then its volatility would lead to large amounts of it being evaporated and not burnt (pyrolysed) in the interior of the building. This evaporated fuel would burn on exiting the building, when it finally found sufficient oxygen. (3) The jet fuel fires were brief. Most of the jet fuel would have burnt off or evaporated within 30 seconds, and all of it within 2-3 minutes (if all 10,000 gallons of fuel were evenly spread across a single building floor as a pool, it would be consumed by fire in less than 5 minutes). The energy, from the jet fuel, not absorbed by the concrete and steel within this brief period, would have been vented to the outside world. This means that the jet fuel fire did not heat the concrete slabs or fire protected steel appreciably. Large columns such as the core columns would also not heat appreciably, even if they had lost all their fire-protection. Unprotected trusses may have experienced a more sizeable temperature increase. The jet fuel fire was so brief that the concrete and steel simply could not absorb the heat fast enough, and consequently, most of the heat was lost to the atmosphere through the smoke plume. (4) Even if the fire-rated suspended ceilings and spray on fire-protection from the trusses was removed by the impacts and the trusses were heated till they had lost most of their room temperature strength, we know from the Cardington tests and real fires like Broadgate, that the relatively cold concrete slab will supply strength to the structural system, and collapse will not occur. Remember, that at Broadgate and Cardington, the beams/trusses were not fire-protected. (5) Since the jet fuel fire was brief, and the building still stood, we know that the composite floor slab survived and continued to function as designed (until the buildings were demolished one or two hours later). After the jet fuel fire was over, burning desks, books, plastic, carpets, etc, contributed to the fire. So now we have a typical office fire. The fact that the trusses received some advanced heating will be of little consequence. After some minutes the fires would have been indistinguishable from a typical office fire, and we know that the truss-slab combination will survive such fires, because they did so in the 1975. (6) Of course, most of the weight of the building was supported by the central core columns. Eagar doesn't bother to tell us how these 47 massive columns might have failed (at least in the case of the north tower, some of these columns, perhaps two or three, would have been displaced by the impacts). We know that the jet fuel fire was too brief to heat them appreciably. Since the central core area contained only lift shafts and stairwells, it contained very little flammable material. This meant that the core columns could only have been heated by the office fire burning in the adjacent region. Consequently, the core columns would have never got hot enough to fail. But we already know this because they did not fail in the 1975 WTC office fire. (7) You should consider that it has been calculated that if the entire 10,000 gallons of jet fuel from the aircraft was injected into just one floor of the World Trade Center, that the jet fuel burnt with the perfect efficency, that no hot gases left this floor and that no heat escaped this floor by conduction, then the jet fuel could have only raised the temperature of this floor to, at the very most, 536°F (280°C). You can find the calculation here. (8) Another reason that we know the fires were not serious enough to cause structural failure, is that witnesses tell us this. The impact floors of the south tower were 78-84. Here are a few words from some of the witnesses: Stanley Praimnath was on the 81st floor of the south tower: The plane impacts. I try to get up and then I realize that I'm covered up to my shoulder in debris. And when I'm digging through under all this rubble, I can see the bottom wing starting to burn, and that wing is wedged 20 feet in my office doorway. Donovan Cowan was in an open elevator at the 78th floor sky-lobby: We went into the elevator. As soon as I hit the button, that's when there was a big boom. We both got knocked down. I remember feeling this intense heat. The doors were still open. The heat lasted for maybe 15 to 20 seconds I guess. Then it stopped. Ling Young was in her 78th floor office: Only in my area were people alive, and the people alive were from my office. I figured that out later because I sat around in there for 10 or 15 minutes. That's how I got so burned. Eagar claims temperatures were hot enough to cause the trusses of the south tower to fail, but here we have eye-witnesses stating that temperatures were cool enough for them to walk away. Interestingly, a tape of radio conversations between firefighters exists (but only relatives of the dead men have been allowed to hear it). Kevin Flynn, of the New York Times, reported: Chief Orio Palmer says from an upper floor of the badly damaged south tower at the World Trade Center. Just two hose lines to attack two isolated pockets of fire. "We should be able to knock it down with two lines," he tells the firefighters of Ladder Co. 15 who were following him up the stairs of the doomed tower. Lt. Joseph G. Leavey is heard responding: "Orio, we're on 78 but we're in the B stairway. Trapped in here. We got to put some fire out to get to you." The time was 9:56 a.m. So now we know that, just a few minutes before the collapse of the south tower, firefighters did not consider the fires to be that serious, and were in fact able to get right into the impact region without being killed by the heat that was (according to Eagar) so intense that the trusses glowed red-hot and failed. NOVA: How high did the temperatures get, and what did that do to the steel columns? Eagar: The maximum temperature would have been 1,600°F or 1,700°F. It's impossible to generate temperatures much above that in most cases with just normal fuel, in pure air ("pure" air is only 21% oxygen). In fact, I think the World Trade Center fire was probably only 1,200°F or 1,300°F. Eagar randomly settles on a temperature between 1,200°F to 1,300°F. He does this so that his "estimate" would be higher than the first "critical" temperature for open web steel joists of 1,100°F. He does not differentiate between atmospheric temperatures and steel temperatures. The critical temperature is defined as approximately the temperature where the steel has lost approximately 50 percent of its yield strength from that at room temperature. It turns out, that for composite steel structures, the first "critical" temperature, is not really that critical. Here are the critical temperatures adopted by the North American Test Standard (the ASTM E119 standard) Steel Critical Temperature Columns 1,000°F (538°C) Beams 1,100°F (593°C) Open Web Steel Joists 1,100°F (593°C) Reinforcing Steel 1,100°F (593°C) Prestressed Steel 800°F (426°C) These critical temperatures are only part of the picture. If individual components are exposed to temperatures in excess of those quoted, then they may fail. However, these same components when incorporated in larger structures can be heated to much greater temperatures before failure occurs. The June 1990 Broadgate fire occurred in a high-rise while under construction. Consequently, little of the steel was fire protected. Even though the fire blazed for 4.5 hours, the building did not collapse and runaway type failures did not occur. To investigate the implications of the Broadgate fire on fire standards, the British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington on a simulated, eight-story building. Here is a quote from one of the research reports from these experiments. Steel beams in standard fire tests reach a state of deflections and runaway well below temperatures achieved in real fires. In a composite steel frame structure these beams are designed to support the composite deck slab. It is therefore quite understandable that they are fire protected to avoid runaway failures. The fire at Broadgate showed that this (runaway failure) didn't actually happen in a real structure. Subsequently, six full-scale fire tests on a real composite frame structure at Cardington showed that despite large deflections of structural members affected by fire, runaway type failures did not occur in real frame structures when subjected to realistic fires in a variety of compartments. [2] And here is a quote from the FEMA report into the WTC collapse (Appendix A). In the mid-1990s British Steel and the Building Research Establishment performed a series of six experiments at Cardington to investigate the behavior of steel frame buildings. These experiments were conducted in a simulated, eight-story building. Secondary steel beams were not (fire) protected. Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 1,500-1,700°F (800-900°C) in three of the tests (well above the traditionally assumed critical temperature of 1,100°F (600°C), no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments. To get a feeling for how amazingly fire-resistant composite steel structures really are, consider this: Test 6: The office demonstration test fire at Cardington: A compartment 18m wide and up to 10m deep with a floor area of 135m2, was constructed on the second floor, using concrete blockwork. The compartment represented an open plan office and contained a series of work-stations consisting of modern day furnishings, computers and filing systems. The test conditions were set to create a very severe fire by incorporating additional wood/plastic cribs to create a total fire load of 9.4 pounds per square foot (46kg per square meter). Less than 5% of offices would exceed this level (mainly office libraries). The fire load was made up of 69% wood, 20% plastic and 11% paper. The steel columns were fire protected but the primary and secondary beams (and their connections) were not. The maximum atmosphere temperature was 2215°F (1213°C) and the maximum average temperature was approximately 1650°F (900°C). The maximum temperature of the unprotected steel was 2100°F (1150°C) with a maximum average temperature of about 1750°F (950°C). The steel beams would have only have had 3% of their strength at 2000°F (1100°C), with such little remaining strength left in the steel, the beams could only contribute as catenary tension members. It is also clear that the concrete floors were supplying strength to the structural system by membrane action. The structure showed no signs of collapse. One of the conclusions derived from the Cardington tests, was that fire protection for the beams (trusses) was not necessary (in a composite steel structure). Investigations of fires in other buildings with steel have shown that fires don't usually even melt the aluminum, which melts around 1,200°F. Most fires don't get above 900°F to 1,100°F. The World Trade Center fire did melt some of the aluminum in the aircraft and hence it probably got to 1,300°F or 1,400°F. This is almost certainly a lie. It is no surprise Eagar does not give a source for this information. But that's all it would have taken to trigger the collapse, according to my "back of the envelope" analysis. NOVA: You've pointed out that structural steel loses about half its strength at 1,200°F, yet even a 50 percent loss of strength is insufficient, by itself, to explain the collapse. Eagar: Well, normally the biggest load on this building was the wind load (actually the biggest load was the gravity load), trying to push it sideways and make it vibrate like a flag in the breeze. The World Trade Center building was designed to withstand a hurricane of about 140 miles an hour, but September 11th wasn't a windy day, so the major loads it was designed for were not on it at the time. "You can't explain the collapse just in terms of temperature." As a result, the World Trade Center, at the time each airplane hit it, was only loaded to about 20 percent of its capacity. That means it had to lose five times its capacity either due to temperature or buckling -- the temperature weakening the steel, the buckling changing the strength of a member because it's bent rather than straight. You can't explain the collapse just in terms of temperature, and you can't explain it just in terms of buckling. It was a combination. Eagar claims that the exterior columns buckled. The exterior columns were visible from outside the building. There was no visible evidence that these columns buckled before the collapse. There is also no visible evidence that these columns were very hot. Photographs of these columns in the debris heap, showed no indications of thermal buckling (I guess the conspirators will claim that the reason no photographs showed thermal buckling of the exterior columns, was that they made sure that such columns were the first to hauled away and melted down). Eagar jumps from buckled columns to buckled beams in a few more lines, mixing up the two as if they are essentially the same. NOVA: So can you give a sequence of events that likely took place in the structural failure? Eagar: Well, first you had the impact of the plane, of course, and then this spreading of the fireball all the way across within seconds. Then you had a hot fire, but it wasn't an absolutely uniform fire everywhere. You had a wind blowing, so the smoke was going one way more than another way, (by the way, cross ventilation is known to cool a fire) which means the heat was going one way more than another way. That caused some of the beams to distort, even at fairly low temperatures. You can permanently distort the beams with a temperature difference of only about 300°F. NOVA: You mean one part of a beam is 300°F hotter than another part of the same beam? Eagar: Exactly. If there was one part of the building in which a beam had a temperature difference of 300°F, then that beam would have become permanently distorted at relatively low temperatures. So instead of being nice and straight, it had a gentle curve. If you press down on a soda straw, you know that if it's perfectly straight, it will support a lot more load than if you start to put a little sideways bend in it. That's what happened in terms of the beams. They were weakened because they were bent by the fire. Eagar is, as usual, incorrect here. Buckling of beams does not necessarily lead to failure, in fact, in fires it is beneficial. For example, a laterally restrained beam (that will buckle at relatively low temperatures due to the lateral restraint) will not suffer runaway till around 900°C, whereas, a simply supported beam carrying the same loads (that will not buckle) will suffer runaway at around 450°C. So the beam that undergoes buckling is much preferred in a fire situation. Here are two more quotes from a research papers examining the Cardington experiments. In structures such as the composite steel frame at Cardington, the slab strongly restrains the thermal expansion strains and consequently develops large membrane compression and tension forces in the composite steel-concrete floor system. The membrane compressions can be limited by the large downward deflections which occur through thermo-mechanical post-buckling effects and thermal bowing (these are nonlinearly additive). The resulting behaviour is then a combination of displacement and force responses. The heated steel part of this composite system, if unprotected, rapidly reaches its axial capacity (through local buckling and strength degradation), and produces a beneficial effect by limiting and then reducing the total membrane compression, so allowing increased expansion of the steel through softening and ductility. This is clearly a desirable behaviour here, as it reduces the force imposed on the structure by the expansion forces and allows the damage to be localized. [3] In composite floor slabs, buckling of the steel beams as a result of large compressions induced by restrained thermal expansions, is a positive event. The buckle allows the increase in length, as a result of thermal expansion, to be accommodated in downward deflections relieving axial compressions. [4] So, in buildings comparable to the World Trade Center, buckling, paradoxically, has a beneficial effect. But the steel still had plenty of strength, until it reached temperatures of 1,100°F to 1,300°F. In this range, the steel started losing a lot of strength, and the bending became greater. Eventually the steel lost 80 percent of its strength, because of this fire that consumed the whole floor. If it had only occurred in one little corner, such as a trashcan caught on fire, you might have had to repair that corner, but the whole building wouldn't have come crashing down. The problem was, it was such a widely distributed fire, and then you got this domino effect. Once you started to get angle clips to fail in one area, it put extra load on other angle clips, and then it unzipped around the building on that floor in a matter of seconds. NOVA: Many other engineers also feel the weak link was these angle clips, which held the floor trusses between the inner core of columns and the exterior columns. Is that simply because they were much smaller pieces of steel? Eagar: Exactly. That's the easiest way to look at it. If you look at the whole structure, they are the smallest piece of steel. As everything begins to distort, the smallest piece is going to become the weak link in the chain. They were plenty strong for holding up one truss, but when you lost several trusses, the trusses adjacent to those had to hold two or three times what they were expected to hold. More crap from Eagar. Does he really believe that the towers were only held together with a couple of rivets and duct tape. Here is a quote from the FEMA report into the WTC collapse (Chapter 2). Pairs of flat bars extended diagonally from the exterior wall to the top chord of adjacent trusses. These diagonal flat bars, which were typically provided with shear studs, provided horizontal shear transfer between the floor slab and exterior wall, as well as out-of-plane bracing for perimeter columns not directly supporting floor trusses. Eagar claims that the trusses were connected to the perimeter wall only by what he calls, "angle clips". The truth is that every 160 inches, the perimeter wall was solidly attached to a 24 x 18 inch metal plate that was covered with shear studs and set in the concrete slab. In addition a pair of 6 foot long, flat, steel bars lined with shear studs were welded to the plate and to the top chord of the adjacent trusses. These bars were also set in the concrete slab. Between these plates similar pairs of 6 foot long, flat, steel bars connected directly to tabs on the perimeter columns. So these features, as well as the angle clips, connected the perimeter wall to the concrete slab and hence to the rest of the building. Below, is a picture of these plates and steel bars before the concrete slab was poured. The plates are the dark rectangular objects along the perimeter wall. The steel bars are the V-like features Those angle clips probably had two or three or four times the strength that they originally needed. They didn't have the same factor-of-five safety as the columns did, but they still had plenty of safety factor to have people and equipment on those floors. It was not that the angle clips were inadequately designed; it was just that there were so many of them that the engineers were able to design them with less safety factor. In a very unusual loading situation like this, they became the weak link. NOVA: I've read that the collapse was a near free-fall. Eagar: Yes. That's because the forces, it's been estimated, were anywhere from 10 to 100 times greater than an individual floor could support. First of all, you had 10 or 20 floors above that came crashing down. That's about 10 or 20 times the weight you'd ever expect on one angle clip. There's also the impact force, that is, if something hits very hard, there's a bigger force than if you lower it down very gently. Here is an article that has been posted at various sites on the internet. All that one needs to know, to be able to conclusively prove that the Twin Towers were demolished, is that the towers fell in roughly 10 seconds, that is, that they fell at about the same rate that an object falls through air. Anyone with a little common sense will realize that the top of a building does not pass through the concrete and steel that comprises the lower portion of the building at the same rate that it falls through air. This just doesn't happen, unless, of course, the lower part of the building has lost its structural integrity (and this is usually due to the detonation of a multitude of small explosive charges as seen in controlled demolitions). The fact that the towers collapsed in about 10 seconds is a statement that the upper portion of each of the towers passed through the lower portion at about the same rate that it would have fallen through air. The fact that the towers fell this quickly (essentially at the rate of free-fall) is conclusive evidence that they were deliberately demolished. Believing that there is nothing wrong with the towers collapsing so quickly, is roughly analogous to believing that people pass through closed doors as quickly as they pass through open doors. The fact that they fell at such a rate means that they encountered essentially no resistance from the supposedly undamaged parts of the structure. That is, no resistance was encountered from any of the immensely strong parts of the structure that had held the building up for the last 30 years. From this one can conclude that the lower undamaged parts were actually very damaged (probably by the detonation of a multitude of small explosive charges as is usual in a controlled demolition). NOVA: Miraculously, a number of firefighters survived inside Tower One. They were on the third or fourth floor in a stairwell, and immediately after the collapse they looked up and saw blue sky above their heads -- their part of the stairwell survived. How is that possible, with all the force of that 500,000-ton building coming down? "They were very, very fortunate that they happened to be in an area that was somewhat shielded." Eagar: Well, you have to understand the stairwells were reinforced areas of the building. The stairwells were in the central core, which had more steel than the outer areas, which were big open floors. So that extra steel formed a little cage to protect them. It's still amazing, though. Now, there could have been someone two floors below who could have been completely crushed. It just depends on how the steel buckled. If you take that soda straw again, and you push it sideways, it will develop a buckle at some location, probably somewhere in the middle third. Well, if you happen to be where the buckling occurs, that area is going to get smashed, but if you're, say, below where the buckling occurred, basically the whole thing can push sideways. They were very, very fortunate that they happened to be in an area that was somewhat shielded and protected by all the extra steel in the central core. I read one of those people's statements in the paper the other day, and he said that if they'd been in the lobby, they'd be gone. I was in the lobby of the World Trade Center years ago, and it was some three or four stories tall. What was going to buckle? Well, the lobby had the longest columns, so they were going to buckle. Those firefighters were just above that, so they were protected by the buckling underneath, within this sort of steel cage. In fact, that's how they design automobiles for crashworthiness. They try to design the passenger compartment to be a cage, and the hood and trunk are supposed to deform and absorb the energy so that you're protected by this little cage of steel that hopefully won't deform. Plane approaching Engineers have found evidence that the aluminum of the planes' fuselages and wings may have melted, but there is no evidence that it burned. NOVA: There's a theory that the aluminum of the planes caught fire. Eagar: Yes, a number of people have tried to reinforce that theory. Now, the aluminum of the planes would have burned just like a flare. Flares are made out of aluminum and magnesium, so are fireworks, and they burn hot enough to melt steel in certain cases. However, they have had people sorting through the steel from the World Trade Center, and no one has reported finding melted steel, which means that we didn't have that aluminum flare. In any case, burning aluminum would have been white-hot, about 4,000°F, and someone would have seen it even through that dense black smoke. Of course, aluminum can burn. That's what demolished the [British destroyer] Sheffield in the Falklands War [when it was struck by an Argentinian missile]. It wasn't the Exocet missile that destroyed the superstructure of the Sheffield. The missile wasn't big enough, just like the plane wasn't big enough to bring down the World Trade Center. That Exocet missile did damage the Sheffield, but what doomed the Sheffield was the aluminum superstructure caught fire and burned. So you suddenly had something like 1,000 or 10,000 times as much fuel as you had in that Exocet missile. Now, this is not a type of fire we have to worry about in buildings. We don't have anywhere close to those types of conditions. And we didn't have those in the World Trade Center, in my opinion. NOVA: How soon will a definitive report of the causes of the collapse be released? Eagar: Well, there's some very sophisticated analysis that various people in the government, at universities, and at structural engineering firms are doing to understand it. Most of those people have not yet published any conclusions. To do a good job of research on something like this can typically take one to two years. I don't expect to see any conclusive reports probably until about the first anniversary of the attack. "There will still be people worrying about this ten years from now." There are different levels of analysis. You can do the back-of-the-envelope, which was what I and other people did early on. But to do the full analysis will take much longer. I suspect there will still be people worrying about this ten years from now. NOVA: In your back-of-the-envelope analysis, you concluded the World Trade Center was not defectively designed, but not everyone apparently accepts that conclusion. Eagar: A lot of people said, Well, the building failed. That's true, but nothing is indestructible. The question is, why did it fail? In this case, as I've explained, it was the fire covering the whole floor in a few seconds that made this different from any other fire that anyone had ever designed for. If people say, Well, couldn't we have designed it for this, I say, Yes, we could have. We could build buildings that could survive a jet running into them with a full fuel load. In fact, the military does. But they're bunkers. We build these things for the President and the rest of the 150 leaders of the country to go to as a secure area. You can do that, but your building costs go up by a factor of about 100. Well, do we want to have 100 times fewer homes for people to live in? Do we want to have 100 times fewer roads? If we were to harden everything against a terrorist attack, we'd push ourselves back into the first half of the 19th century in terms of living style. Now, some people might consider that an improvement, but not everybody, so society has some important tradeoffs here. There's got to be some middle ground where we can make things more secure but not destroy our standard of living. NOVA: Anything we should do now to retrofit existing skyscrapers like the Sears Tower? Eagar: Well, one of the things that's really important and is relatively inexpensive is a public communication system. I've been in high-rises when the fire alarm goes off, and everyone looks around the room and decides, Should we just continue meeting and ignore the fire alarm, or should we evacuate? Fortunately, in most cases -- and I've had to be the person in a few of those cases -- people say, Look, it's a fire alarm. We don't know if it's real. Evacuate. So you need better public-address systems to inform people that this is not a test, this is not a false alarm, you'd better get out of the building. Stairwell Better communications systems may have allowed more people to escape the towers before they collapsed, Eagar believes. For instance, if more people had known that Stairway A in the South Tower, shown here in green, had survived the impact, more people may have gotten out before the building collapsed. Survivors from the World Trade Center have said that some people took four or five minutes to figure out there was something more than just some false alarm. Other people started moving immediately. Obviously, the quicker people started to move, the better chance they had of reaching safety. NOVA: How about improving the fire safety of the building or putting in extra stairwells? Eagar: These are very difficult things to redesign into current buildings. They can and will be added to future buildings. The simplest thing is the communication system. And better training of firefighters. Those things will definitely be done. If you look at the World Trade Center disaster, it would have been greatly minimized if the safety personnel had been aware of the danger they were in. They didn't realize it was going to collapse. As I said earlier, there are only a few engineers in the country who had ever designed skyscrapers like this who would have realized, but they couldn't communicate within that first hour with the people at ground zero. Nobody could call to New York City at that time. So better communication. The military's known that for years. They've invested tremendous amounts of money in better communications. That's been one of the differences in having fewer lives lost on the American side in recent wars. We've got much better C3I -- Command, Control, Communications, and Intelligence. They've spent billions of dollars, and it's saved thousands and thousands of lives in the military. We can do that on the civilian side as well for these big structures, though, in my opinion, skyscrapers are not the problem anymore. "A terrorist is not going to attack the things you expect him to attack." NOVA: What is? Eagar: I think the terrorist danger will be other things. A terrorist is not going to attack the things you expect him to attack. The real problem is pipelines, electrical transmission, dams, nuclear plants, railroads. A terrorist's job is to scare people. He or she doesn't have to harm very many people. Anthrax is a perfect example. If someone could wipe out one electrical transmission line and cause a brownout in all of New York City or Los Angeles, there would be hysteria, if people realized it was a terrorist that did it. Fortunately, we have enough redundancy -- the same type of redundancy we talk about structurally in the World Trade Center -- in our electrical distribution. We have that redundancy built in. I shouldn't say this, but this was how Enron was able to build up a business, because they could transfer their energy from wherever they were producing it into California, which was having problems, and make a fortune -- for a short period of time. NOVA: Gas pipelines don't have redundancy built in, though. Eagar: No, but one advantage of a gas pipeline is the damage you can do to it is relatively limited. You might be able to destroy several hundred yards of it, but that's not wiping out a whole city. The bigger problem with taking out a gas pipeline is if you do it in the middle of winter, and that gas pipeline is heating 20 percent of the homes in the Northeast. Then all of a sudden you have 20 percent less fuel, and everybody's going to have to turn the thermostat down, and you're going to terrorize 30 million people. The lesson we have to learn about this kind of terrorism is we have to design flexible and redundant systems, so that we're not completely dependent on any one thing, whether it's a single gas pipeline bringing heat to a particular area or whatever. Remember the energy crisis in 1973? That terrorized people. People were sitting in long lines at gas pumps. It takes five or 10 years for society to readjust to a problem like that. What happened in the energy crisis in 1973 was we had essentially all our eggs in one basket -- the oil basket. But by 1983, electric generating plants could flip a switch and change from oil to coal or gas, so no one could hold a gun to our head like they did before. Eagar Thomas Eagar is Thomas Lord Professor of Materials Engineering and Engineering Systems at MIT. He was recently nominated to serve on a National Research Council committee on homeland security. To see Eagar's article, "Why Did the World Trade Center Collapse? Science, Engineering, and Speculation," which was coauthored by MIT graduate student Christopher Musso, go to www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html Thomas Eagar is employed by MIT. He blackens the good name of MIT as well as his own. Interview conducted by Peter Tyson, editor in chief of NOVA Online [1] Multi-Storey Building in Steel, GB Godfrey (Editor), Collins, London, England, 1985. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.htmlere drilling holes and placing dynamite and cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine into the towers' steel support structure? I look forward to your response.
I debunked this thread.
[2] Behaviour of Steel Framed Structures under Fire Conditions; School of Civil & Environmental Engineering; The University of Edinburgh.
[3] Structural Performance of Redundant Structures under Local Fires; J.M.Rotter, A.M.Sanad, A.S.Usmani and M.Gillie; Proceedings of Interflam99 - Edinburgh.
[4] The Behaviour of Multi-storey Composite Steel Framed Structures in Response to Compartment Fires; Susan Lamont. PhD Thesis, University of Edinburgh, 2001.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#841. To: James Deffenbach (#838)
Poor wittle Jimmy has a sad face, today ..........
Don't liars always claim that they won?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#842. To: Original_Intent (#840)
You can't disprove my posts concerning the FDR so you avoid the FACTS and play games..... poor wittle O_I .... he has a sad face today.... like his palsy wowsy, Jimmy.
Buck suffers from delusions of adequacy and Sterno poisoning.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#843. To: abraxas (#837)
However could I have forgot the prestigious winner of the coveted 8 hunnnneeerrrttt award? I'm slippin...
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#844. To: Original_Intent (#840)
LOL
delusions of adequacy
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#845. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#840)
Within just a few paragraphs of your post, the author says the above. Why does he persuade the reader towards a conclusion without factual data? Your post is about as worthless as week old spit in a tarnished spittoon. It is hearsay, gossip, speculation, conjecture and innuendo and above all else, pure poppycock. If the document was worth its salt, there would be verifiable FACT and supporting data beyond calculations and a hypothesis. Instead your esteemed, author suggests an animated graphic to PROVE his point.
On the left above, is an animated graphic of the collapse of World Trade Center Building 7. This is clearly a controlled demolition.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#846. To: Original_Intent (#840)
Indeed he does. That Sterno and government supplied Kook Aid has about done him in.
Buck suffers from delusions of adequacy and Sterno poisoning.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#847. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#840) (Edited)
Here it is in its entirely. The links to the images are dead but the text is still there. So, what "peer reviewed" rag hole in the wall will publish your windbag word dump indictment and "refutation" of Thomas Eagar? The more the simpler statements of the Six Percenters get debunked, the more words they try to shovel into their breached dike, and the louder they scream "paid agent," "liar," "sterno drinker," and attack the accomplishments of people with dozens of working patents and hundreds of "peer reviewed" articles in contrast to their one pay to publish piece from a proven k00k. And the more they demonstrate logorrhea trying to drown out the discourse with their own rambling unfocused narratives. Amusing. So now in addition to not being listened to because their Tw00fferk00k message is stupid: "Big plane hits building. Building crashes within 100 minutes. Big plane hit not make building crash," they won't be listened to because of the noise they make, as in "Hey! Turn down the volume on that mix you've been replaying all month!" LOLOL
I finally found Mad Max's refutation of Thomas Eager's disinfo piece.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#848. To: All (#847)
and the winner of the most posts to buckeroo and turtle goes too...... (drumroll)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#849. To: buckeroo (#845)
You mean like in a "peer reviewed publication" this side of Dhubai? As the Chinese say, "Rots o ruck!"
Why does he persuade the reader towards a conclusion without factual data?
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#850. To: buckeroo (#841) (Edited)
Don't liars always claim that they won? Poor wittle Jimmy has a sad face, today .......... With his finger poised over the ban button to hide behind just in case he can't take it any more....
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#851. To: AGAviator (#849)
I have provided several technical discussions backed by authoritative papers to include some of the mathematics by some established mechanical engineers, now. No one comments at all about the details. But I get the comments, "shit", "crap", "worthless" ... the list of comments is too large to discuss..... And then, we (that is YOU, AGAviator) and me receive all kinds of backstabbing snickering remarcks, "idiot", "lamebrain" and all sorts of otherwise deletives ..... these folks don't to discuss a serious set of circumstances that affected us forever .... they just want to play all day.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#852. To: buckeroo (#851)
You forgot Turtle....
And then, we (that is YOU, AGAviator) and me
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#853. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Critter, abraxas, all (#847) (Edited)
And this would concern me how? It either stands on its merits or it does not. Peer Review is vastly overrated. It is a way to prevent anything which does not conform to any given orthodoxy from getting published whether it be Archaeology, Physics, Chemistry, or 911. I've covered the territory before but there are a variety of things which today we accept as scientific fact that were rejected by the mainstream at the time of their introduction: Gregor Mendel and the inheritability of genetic traits. He was laughed at, rejected, and his work sat on a dusty shelf for over a hundred years afterwards. Alfred Wegner introduced the Theory of Continental Drift in the 1930's and was called a kook, a nut, and how dare a mere Meteorologist comment on geology. Today it is a separate branch of Geophysics called "Plate Tectonics". Copernicus was afraid to have his work on planetary motion published in his lifetime as he was kind leery of being burned at the stake as a heretic. Harvey was called a kook, a bufoon, etc., when he introduced his theory of how the circulatory system worked. Today it is taken for granted. "Rocks fall from the sky? Impossible! Rocks don't fall from the sky. Harummph!" And so meteorites were dismissed as folk tales until the scientific community caught up with the evidence. The French Geologist, Georges Cuvier, was a proponent of the theory of Catastrophism in Geology i.e., that massive earth changes can occur in a relatively short period of time. He was laughed out of the field and Charles Lyell and James Hutton's "Uniformitarianism" i.e., that all major earth changes occur slowly over vast periods of time, won the debate and Cuvier was relegated to a chuckling footnote over his "simplistic" views. But wait Johnny THERE'S MORE! In recent years beginning with Walter and Luis Alvarez and the Asteroid Impact Theory of Dinosaur Extinction there has been a slow tidal change and it now appears that Cuvier was right as the evidence for planetary scale catastrophes has begun to mount. So, 20 years ago Catastrophists were "a bunch of kooks" and today they are a growing segment of the mainstream. So, while your ignorance could, no doubt, fill volumes you are perfectly welcome to panic yourself and chuckle ignorantly away. You see there is a difference between thee and me. I am prepared to admit when an item has been disproven and revise my views to reflect new data. Which is much unlike you who has a fixed idea and a book full of talking points. I go where the data goes and you know what buddy I trust my ability to reach a logical conclusion based on the data more than I trust your hyena like chuckling and giggling. Imagine that? Oh, and don't forget to grease the wheels on your Skateboard.
So, what "peer reviewed" rag hole in the wall will publish your windbag word dump indictment and "refutation" of Thomas Eagar?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#854. To: Original_Intent, *Post Of The Day* (#853)
Awesome post, OI.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#855. To: Original_Intent (#853)
Most excellent. I would merely add that often the best and the brightest are shunned by the "peer review" crowd simply because they make their peers look like dumbasses. Tesla comes to mind in this catagory.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#856. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent (#854)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#857. To: wudidiz (#854)
Thanks. I think that is what is known in rhetorical circles as a "stinging rebuke". 
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#858. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#857)
Yeah, you put on your prettiest ballerina dress/shoes and danced around AGAviator's main perspective ....
I think that is what is known in rhetorical circles as a "stinging rebuke".
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#859. To: abraxas (#855)
I would merely add that often the best and the brightest are shunned by the "peer review" crowd simply because they make their peers look like dumbasses. Tesla comes to mind in this catagory. Thank you. Ever read Thomas Kuhn "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"? He is not very popular in some circles because he burst a lot of bubbles and shattered a few myths about "scientific progress". I've come to the conclusion over time that a lot of peer reviewed journals exist only to validate the current paradigm, given second raters a place to publish and be impressive, and prevent new ideas from seeing the light of day.
Most excellent.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#860. To: buckeroo (#858)
Yeah, you put on your prettiest ballerina dress/shoes and danced around AGAviator's main perspective .... I'm not real big on blackout sunglasses.
I think that is what is known in rhetorical circles as a "stinging rebuke".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#861. To: Original_Intent (#859)
I haven't but it sounds interesting. We haven't had that much "progress" IMHO. What we have in technology is mostly courtesy of Tesla and he provided the knowledge a hundred years ago. I think there is a great deal of validating the current paradigm and also validating whoever paid for the "research" grants. Sheesh, in the 70's AMC made a hydrogen, electric and methonol running Gremlin, yet people act as if this is just too tech savvy to be accomplished to these days. It seems to me, the more corporate money dictates what is given priority to reseach and such, the less we advance.
Ever read Thomas Kuhn "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#862. To: Eric Stratton (#856)
I think I'd rather try to reason with the next deuce I drop. It would be a more intelligent conversation. Actually AGGravator is a Warmist, and a Peak Oiler. If there is a mainstream PTB PsyOp he doesn't agree with I am unaware of it.
People like AGAvatar sit there and bitch up a world-class shitstorm about how "Global Warming" is a major hoax and how the PTB are lying to us through their teeth, but on 9/11 all of a sudden they all found a fucking conscience.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#863. To: abraxas (#861)
I haven't but it sounds interesting. We haven't had that much "progress" IMHO. What we have in technology is mostly courtesy of Tesla and he provided the knowledge a hundred years ago. I think there is a great deal of validating the current paradigm and also validating whoever paid for the "research" grants. Sheesh, in the 70's AMC made a hydrogen, electric and methonol running Gremlin, yet people act as if this is just too tech savvy to be accomplished to these days. It seems to me, the more corporate money dictates what is given priority to reseach and such, the less we advance. People assume, because of repetition, that we have a competitive marketplace that is open to all without restriction. Which is of course not true. Major interests do not like competition and we have a sociopathic/psychotic power structure that is deathly frightened of change because it might cut into their power and guaranteed incomes from their hidden monopolies. There are more than a few stories of inventors and small companies being shut down or murdered to prevent technology, particularly energy, from reaching market in competition to the existing monopolies/oligopolies. Medicine is another. The maze of laws preventing the practice of medical/healing arts that are not based on pharmaceuticals is Byzantine. For a time the FDA prohibited natural products from advertising their proven beneficial affects, even ones validated in university studies, until it was overturned in court. The FDA was serving the wishes of the people that control them - Big Pharma. Obamacare is not about the patient it is about giving a monopoly/oligopoly on medicine to the pharmaceutical companies - along with all of its other incursions on individual liberty. We continue to have an energy crisis not because there is not technology to solve it but because the people benefiting from the current status quo do not want it solved. It would be bad for business.
Ever read Thomas Kuhn "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions"?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#864. To: Original_Intent (#862)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#865. To: Original_Intent (#862)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#866. To: Eric Stratton (#864)
His palsy wowsy, buck of the loose screw, is here (that's probably the reason).
He should head over to FR or somewhere else then. WTF's he doing here.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#867. To: Original_Intent (#863)
What we have is oligarchy and a few duopolies to give the impression of competition, but it's bovine excrement. Yep, the two areas that are bringing this nation to her knees, medicine and energy, have made very little progress. Coincidence? I think not. The DOE is a revolving door for energy executives serving their own needs. The FDA is a revolving door of Big Pharma execs serving their own needs. The EPA is a revolving door of Monsanto cronies serving their own needs. And all of these needs are in direct opposition to the needs of the people. It's slick how they have done it, from the resarch funding at universities across the nation to the key positions in all regulatory agencies......all we the people are left with is the bill and a big sucking sound.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#868. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#853) (Edited)
Bull$hit. Legitimate peer review is a way to check items before they are published, make sure they're not replicates, make sure they follow basic methodologies, and openly describe their sources, methods, and conclusions. Another off-topic sideshow. I've linked to Eager's CV, which in turn links, on a paper to paper basis, to his 200+ papers. Tell me which of Eager's 200+ papers aren't valid scientific fact, windbag. You can research and analyze every one of them with 2 or 3 mouse clicks. You've been called out, and you are PWNED! Furthermore, Eager's CV also lists his 14 patents in his own name. Patents not only need to demonstrate knowledge of the subject, they actually have to be original, and they have to fucking work, and when they do work, the inventors collect cash payments in the form of licensing royalties. Feel free to rebut any of Eager's 14 patents, nincompoop. So not only can Thomas Eager produce over 200 articles you are completely helpless to rebut, he also has produced at leat 14 devices or processes you are completely unable to deny successful working of. pwned again. I strongly suspect you're working on your third major whopper in a single post to me. WIthin the last week I've used basic vector analysis to show that a structure cannot be both flexible enough to absorb a gigajoule of kinetic crash energy into its side, and rigid enough to provide a platform for a rotating collapse of its top section against the its vertical bottom section, ala a falling tree upper section. The two are mutually exclusive. A rotating and falling tree section produces an equal and opposite horizontal vector against the tree base, and if the tree base is flexible, the rotating and falling section will remain within the base footprint as it its own horizontal displacement from center cancels out the compensating movement of the tree base away from center in the other direction. At various times you've both claimed there is a conspiracy because the building harmlessly absorbed the gigajoules of crash energy making the crashes not the causes of the collapses, and you've also claimed there's a conspiracy because the tops of the buildings did not rotate like falling tree tops. State which one of these 2 mutually exclusive alternatives you want to admit "has been disproven and revise my views to reflect new data." Go grease your little dickstub, Tw00ffertwit. Your puerile snides don't even rise to the level of grownup insults.
Peer Review is vastly overrated. It is a way to prevent anything which does not conform to any given orthodoxy from getting published whether it be Archaeology, Physics, Chemistry, or 911.
A variety of things which today we accept as scientific fact that were rejected by the mainstream at the time of their introduction
I am prepared to admit when an item has been disproven and revise my views to reflect new data.
Oh, and don't forget to grease the wheels on your Skateboard.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#869. To: James Deffenbach (#866)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#870. To: Eric Stratton (#869)
Have you seen that unmitigated bs that buck has been posting about how wonderful the government is and how they wouldn't do any such thing? Incredible when you remember such things as Operation Northwoods, Gulf of Tonkin, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Gordon Kahl--no telling how long a list you could make of the lies and people killed by the angelic government he loves so much.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#871. To: James Deffenbach (#870)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#872. To: James Deffenbach (#870)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#873. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#868)
I don't car if Eager single handedly invented nuclear fission and quantum physics, which he of course didn't. It doesn't matter, it doesn't keep him from LYING to idiots who just take his word for it, for the "greater good". If he is trying to say he can determine by the Law of Momentum that the floors "pancaked", then he is blowing it out his ass, since the collisions were inelastic, there was no conservation of kinetic energy due to the loss of kinetic energy (much of the energy was expended in pulverizing the floors and the structure, thus was NOT available to push the mass downwards). That people such as yourself take his word as the FINAL word indicates one of two things; A) You are REALLY dense and ignorant of fundamental physicsFurthermore, Eager's CV also lists his 14 patents in his own name.
B) You are paid to ACT really dense and ignorant of fundamental physics
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#874. To: Eric Stratton (#872)
But don't mention any of that to buck. He thinks the gubmint is his friend. And maybe they are, at least so long as he will carry water for them and be a useful idiot.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#875. To: buckeroo (#820)
You lose. This thread is debunked. Why don't you find something that lists the parameters the FDR did collect, and provide documentation that ties that to what you claim. It appears that Oct. 1991 is the cutoff between upgrade requirements, so find something that indicates which month the aircraft was manufacutered, and the ruling that specifies which upgrades were required for that aircraft. So far you've blown a lot of smoke, but haven't produced any concrete evidence one way or the other as to which parameters were actually collected.
There are NO records of any upgrades on AAFLT77 and as a result, the craft must be assumed to NOT have had the later -3 FDR capabilities to include your coveted thread title.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#876. To: Eric Stratton, AGGravator, AGAviator (#865)
He should head over to FR or somewhere else then. WTF's he doing here. Why isn't he still over at PalinPost, what'd he do, criticize our next queen or something. Good question. I honestly don't know. Of course with Goldi-Pox you only need to comment on the other side of one of her prejudices or expose a truth she doesn't want heard to get the boot. Which of course is why El Pee has shrunk from a thriving community to a nest of quisling Israel First Cranks and subjects of "The Tits that Walk". However, on the positive side he is good for a laugh. Such a cheerful fellow. ;-) Ever notice that the Warmists and Peak Oilers always accuse everyone else of harboring (((((shudder))))) "Conspiracy Theories" and yet their pet Chimeras are never so labeled?
Seriously?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#877. To: FormerLurker (#873)
I don't car if Eager single handedly invented nuclear fission and quantum physics, which he of course didn't. It doesn't matter, it doesn't keep him from LYING to idiots who just take his word for it, for the "greater good". If he is trying to say he can determine by the Law of Momentum that the floors "pancaked", then he is blowing it out his ass, since the collisions were inelastic, there was no conservation of kinetic energy due to the loss of kinetic energy (much of the energy was expended in pulverizing the floors and the structure, thus was NOT available to push the mass downwards). That people such as yourself take his word as the FINAL word indicates one of two things; A) You are REALLY dense and ignorant of fundamental physics B) You are paid to ACT really dense and ignorant of fundamental physics As you allude to Eager is a "Rent-a-Prof" whore who works for an institution that is well known for its tie-ins to the CIA and other "black" projects/programs. If you look at his picture on MIT's website he looks like a glutinous toad out of some H.P. Lovecraft story. Eager has become very careful. He knows his rationales are bullshit and consequently will not give interviews, except to government friendly and "Offical Conspiracy Theory™" friendly outlets who will only toss underhanded softballs and avoid any of the key objections relating to his "theories" about the collapse. Note that despite AGGravator's reliance on the accusation that none of Dr. Jone's reasearch, which he cannot disprove but relies on ad hominems to attack, is published in a top notch Peer Reviewed Journal - none of Eager's bullshit is either. As for reliance on the fraudulent and disinformative NIST Report here is a good analysis of its defects and sleight of hand avoidance of key issues: 911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html I don't expect AGGravator to read it though - it has too many big words of more than one syllable that he doesn't understand.
Furthermore, Eager's CV also lists his 14 patents in his own name.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#878. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#875)
Your thread and research are BS based upon some lamer in OZ. I already alerted YOU to the Boeing data on the FDR for the variations of jet aircraft manufacture besides making the original perspective that your "researcher" doesn't know squat. Moreover, I have PROVED that AA FLT77 was an earlier manufacture (1991) without any FDR designed for the cabin door. And, there are no records of later implementation. Your thread BUSTED! Now, for your edification ... a large part of your thread was about NYC on 9/11; not FLT77. And as a result, come on over to the 9/11 Demolition Theory thread.
So far you've blown a lot of smoke
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#879. To: buckeroo (#878)
Projecting again, eh buck. Please point out the parameters that were collected on Flight 77, with the FAA rulings and maintenance info with upgrades for that aircraft. I'll be waiting, but I'm not holding my breath.
Your thread and research are BS based upon some lamer in OZ. I already alerted YOU to the Boeing data on the FDR
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#880. To: FormerLurker (#879)
Posts with links are already on YOUR thread, FormerLurker AND everytime, I ensured you were alerted to the DATA and FACTS that I researched. You look it up on YOUR thread.
Please point out the parameters that were collected on Flight 77, with the FAA rulings and maintenance info with upgrades for that aircraft.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#881. To: buckeroo (#880)
The DFDR was a solid state digital model, which replaced the older tape based version on the original aircraft. Looks like you're wrong there buck..
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#882. To: buckeroo (#880) (Edited)
You posted a link to the FAA site which just brought up the home page and nothing else, and never posted any parameters, just a lot of smoke.
I ensured you were alerted to the DATA and FACTS that I researched. You look it up on YOUR thread.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#883. To: FormerLurker (#881)
No record of the the -1 757 (with sensors about the cabin door) upgraded to the -3 757 is there? You lose, pal. Poor research on your part and a thread that has gone no where but waste a lot of time and created a miserable experience for some of us.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#884. To: FormerLurker (#882)
When I post a link, it includes the data contained on the page with relevant data. GO back to the post I made containing the FAA data. I have no reason to lie to you or anyone.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#885. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#873)
With Eager we have his history of hundreds verifiable academic and industrial accomplishments. With you, we have an anonymous unsubstantiated claim he is lying. If you want to trash an internationally recognized public figure, who you say is a liar, start by showing any dishonesty in 14 patents and 200+ publications on his open record. If you can't, then you need to show why are not yourself a character assassin and a liar. A far more likely scenario.
It doesn't matter, it doesn't keep him from LYING to idiots who just take his word for it, for the "greater good".
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#886. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#876)
Ever notice how Tw00ferk00ks can never go focused more than a few seconds - in this case the WTC crashes and building collapses - without dragging extraneous subjects into the discussion instead of remaining on point?
Ever notice that the Warmists and Peak Oilers always accuse everyone else of harboring (((((shudder))))) "Conspiracy Theories" and yet their pet Chimeras are never so labeled?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#887. To: AGAviator (#886)
It is as though .. such as this thread about FLT 77's cabin door NEVER opened during the takeoff from Dulles to the crash at the Pentagon ... incredible.
Ever notice how Tw00ferk00ks can never go focused more than a few seconds - in this case the WTC crashes and building collapses - without dragging extraneous subjects into the discussion instead of remaining on point?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#888. To: all (#887)
Eight Hunnneeeeerrrrrttttt an eighty eight.........
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#889. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, critter (#885)
ANY college freshman majoring in physics can tell you about inelastic and elastic collisions, which Eager is apparently unaware of or PURPOSELY neglecting. Thus, he is either a fraud and doesn't know freshman year physics, or is PURPOSELY LYING.
If you want to trash an internationally recognized public figure, who you say is a liar, start by showing any dishonesty in 14 patents and 200+ publications on his open record.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#890. To: buckeroo (#884)
Post a table of the parameters which you think the Flight 77 FDR DID collect, and try to find a reference link. You have NOT provided that info, you have simply danced around some rulings but have yet to prove anything other than the fact you can't find the info which would prove one way or another which parameters were actually collected on Flight 77's FDR.
When I post a link, it includes the data contained on the page with relevant data. GO back to the post I made containing the FAA data. I have no reason to lie to you or anyone.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#891. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, IRTorqued, wudidiz, abraxas, farmfriend, Nostradumbass, Turdle, all (#889)
ANY college freshman majoring in physics can tell you about inelastic and elastic collisions, which Eager is apparently unaware of or PURPOSELY neglecting. Thus, he is either a fraud and doesn't know freshman year physics, or is PURPOSELY LYING. And the correct answer is: PURPOSELY LYING. We have a WINNER Johnny!
If you want to trash an internationally recognized public figure, who you say is a liar, start by showing any dishonesty in 14 patents and 200+ publications on his open record.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#892. To: abraxas (#888)
JACKPOT! Your Truck Load of Ripe Bananas is on the way. ;-)
Eight Hunnneeeeerrrrrttttt an eighty eight.........
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#893. To: Original_Intent (#892)
lol.......I'll be awaiting delivery with bated breath. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#894. To: abraxas (#893)
Is that bated or baited. 
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#895. To: Original_Intent (#894)
It's bated cause I can't waste any worms on this delivery when the fishing is fine this time of year. : )
Is that bated or baited
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#896. To: FormerLurker (#890)
BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHA.... I already provided the FACT that a 757 -1 AAFLT77 on September 11. 2001 (Tail Number = N644AA) and did not have the capability to sense the cockpit door OPEN as it was not required AND that the FDR field for the cockpit door was CLOSED as a result as that is the default of inactive sensors. AND there are no records for ANY upgrade. You go research the stuff, its your thread. When you find documentation, ping me.
Post a table of the parameters which you think the Flight 77 FDR DID collect, and try to find a reference link. You have NOT provided that info, you have simply danced around some rulings but have yet to prove anything other than the fact you can't find the info which would prove one way or another which parameters were actually collected on Flight 77's FDR.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#897. To: Original_Intent (#876)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#898. To: buckeroo (#896)
Uh, no you haven't. Show me the documentation which states that Flight 77 was a 757-1, and list which data fields you allege WERE collected. Also, describe the type of FDR a 757-1 WOULD have, ie. tape based or solid state.
I already provided the FACT that a 757 -1 AAFLT77 on September 11. 2001 (Tail Number = N644AA) and did not have the capability to sense the cockpit door OPEN as it was not required AND that the FDR field for the cockpit door was CLOSED as a result as that is the default of inactive sensors. AND there are no records for ANY upgrade.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#899. To: FormerLurker (#898)
I provided YOU @post#640 and @post#820 (and ad nauseum) the data. You research it and get back to me. And BTW .. your BRAND NEW ISSUE of whether the FDR was a tape or solid state device has NOTHING to do with the issue about the actual sensor for the cabin door or requirements or upgrades or variations of 757 models through time which I have provided YOU several times. Your pal Stutts from Oz doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground which means, your thread is BOGUS.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#900. To: abraxas (#895)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#901. To: abraxas (#895)
It's bated cause I can't waste any worms on this delivery when the fishing is fine this time of year. : ) OK, that's a Pass.
Is that bated or baited
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#902. To: Original_Intent (#900)
#901: marker to say that no one who has anything of consequence to do with the remainder of their lives gives a tin shit about 9/11. Old news. Two massive threads of people going at it hammer and tong over inconsequential nonsense. They're dead. Who cares who did it? Of what intrinsic value is that information? Z-E-R-O.
#903. To: Original_Intent (#900)
Derb nub it!! I slip away but for a moment and nine hunnnnneeeeerrrrtttt is taken......couldn't happen to a nicer poster. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#904. To: abraxas (#903)
Hee, hee. ;-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#905. To: Samuel Gray (#902)
Good, then we can just repeal the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, bring all of our troops home, and release all of the prisoners held at Gitmo and secret prisons around the world, since it's all over with.
They're dead. Who cares who did it? Of what intrinsic value is that information? Z-E-R-O.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#906. To: buckeroo (#899)
Well Stutts certainly knows a lot more than you, so I guess that pretty well paints how smart YOU are. Now, where's that list of parameters? Should be easy enough to post a link to it, right?
And BTW .. your BRAND NEW ISSUE of whether the FDR was a tape or solid state device has NOTHING to do with the issue about the actual sensor for the cabin door or requirements or upgrades or variations of 757 models through time which I have provided YOU several times. Your pal Stutts from Oz doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground which means, your thread is BOGUS.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#907. To: FormerLurker (#905)
LOL. No shit. That would be a great START btw...
Good, then we can just repeal the Patriot Act and Military Commissions Act, bring all of our troops home, and release all of the prisoners held at Gitmo and secret prisons around the world, since it's all over with.
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams
#908. To: Samuel Gray (#902)
I disagree. The reason it remains important is that 911 has been the whole justification for the "Waronterra", the un-Patriot Act, the Military Commissions act, Der Ministry uff State Sekurity a.k.a. Vaterland Sekurity, the invasion of Pipelinestan and Iraq, and all the associated inroads on individual liberty and undermining the Constitution. As well it cuts directly to the heart of the legitimacy of the current government power structure. It is not dead, and it will remain quite alive. Of course the PTB know all of the preceeding which is why, even now, there is still a cadre of disinfo posters, and disinfo websites seeking to delegitimize questions about what really happened on that dreadful day. It is why Bush fought against an inquiry for over a year and then had to put up a rigged commission to give the appearance of an inquiry. Its importance is why NIST spent twenty million dollars to do a pretense of an investigation and analysis of why the towers fell. On 911 the government, and those that control it, staged an armed coup d'etat murdering 3,000 of its citizens to create a psychological environment conducive to cover stories justifying wars of conquest. It has been used to justify heinous and barbaric torture. No, it is not just important it is vitally important and will remain important for the indefinite future.
They're dead. Who cares who did it? Of what intrinsic value is that information? Z-E-R-O.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#909. To: FormerLurker (#905)
You beat me to in, and in fewer words. Thhhhhhhhpppppppppp!!!!!!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#910. To: FormerLurker (#906)
You don't know ANYTHING about me other than as simple, casual poster for about ten years. And that quote (above) is all you can say on your own thread wherein I verified the raw data from some guy in OZ as a self-proclaimed "researcher." Man, you used to do better than this as a true patriot in the spirit good data for all of us.
Well Stutts certainly knows a lot more than you
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#911. To: Original_Intent (#909)
You know beating-off in publick is a sin. But, enjoy yourself.
You beat me to in, and in fewer words. Thhhhhhhhpppppppppp!!!!!!
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#912. To: wudidiz (#416)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
#913. To: wudidiz (#416)
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
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