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Title: Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack”
Source:
Rock Creek Free Press
URL Source: http://rockcreekfreepress.tumblr.com/post/285492999/flt77fdr
Published: Dec 15, 2009
Author: Sheila Casey
Post Date: 2010-07-14 02:07:35 by FormerLurker
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Keywords: Flight 77, 9/11, Black Box
Views: 29489
Comments: 913
Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack"
By Sheila Casey / Rock Creek Free Press
Pilots for 9/11 Truth has reported that the data stream from the flight data recorder (FDR) for American Airlines flight 77, which allegedly struck the Pentagon on 9/11, shows that the cockpit door never opened during the entire 90 minute flight. The data was provided by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), which has refused to comment.
The FDR is one of two “black boxes” in every commercial airliner, which are used after accidents to help determine the cause of a crash. One black box records flight data, the other records voice data (everything said in the cockpit during the flight). With those two sets of data, NTSB investigators can usually piece together the events that led to a crash. The status of the door to the cockpit is checked every four seconds throughout a flight and relayed as a simple 0 or 1, where 0=closed and 1=open, with approximately 1,300 door status checks performed during AA77’s 90 minute flight. Every one of those door status checks shows as a 0, indicating that the door to the cockpit never opened during the entire flight.
Accident investigators monitor the cockpit door with the FDR because it may yield clues to pilot error in a crash. The FDR begins recording once the pilots are in their seats and readying for takeoff, and the plane cannot take off unless the FDR is working.
The official story about flight 77 is that five Muslim terrorists brandishing box cutters forced their way into the cockpit and herded two pilots, four flight attendants and all the passengers to the back of the plane. This story came into being via Ted Olson, US Solicitor General, who told CNN — that he received two phone calls from his wife Barbara Olson, a passenger on the doomed flight. Ted Olson’s story changed several times. Sometimes he claimed that the calls from his wife were made from seat back phones, other times that she used her cell phone.
According to American Airlines customer service, the American Airlines maintenance manual for that aircraft, and American Airlines Captain Ralph Kolstad, seatback phones on 757s had been deactivated prior to 9/11/01. (They were later removed entirely, as they never worked well.)
Barbara Olson couldn’t have used a cell phone either: numerous 9/11 researchers, most notably David Ray Griffin, have pointed out that cell phones did not work on airplanes on 9/11. The speed and altitude of a commercial airliner both present overwhelming obstacles to a cell phone’s need to lock onto a cell tower and then hand off to another tower in a new location.
It was the FBI that revealed the evidence that decisively disproves Ted Olson’s story. In the Zacarias Moussaoui trial in 2006, the FBI presented a report on the cell phone calls from all four 9/11 flights. Their report on AA77 shows that there was only one phone call from Barbara Olson, but that it was an unconnected call lasting zero seconds. So Ted Olson either lied about receiving calls from his wife or was deceived into believing he received calls from her.
According to the UK Telegraph, Barbara Olson delayed her flight on 9/11 so that she could have breakfast with her husband on his birthday. That delay put her on the doomed flight. Ted Olson remarried in 2006 to tax attorney Lady Booth, whom he reportedly met the year after Barbara died.
There are numerous oddities and contradictions about AA77’s black boxes.
The government claims that the voice data recorder was damaged during the crash and that no usable data was retrieved from it. If true, this would be the first time in aviation history that a solid-state data recorder was destroyed during a crash.
While it was widely reported in the media that the FDR for AA77 was found at 4 am on September 14, 2001, the file containing the FDR data was dated over four hours earlier. In other words, we are asked to believe that the data from the FDR was downloaded prior to the FDR being found.
Researcher Aidan Monagahan has established that the NTSB does not have either serial or part numbers for the FDRs from AA77. The NTSB’s own handbook indicates that the part number and serial number of the FDR are required for data readout of the FDR. The NTSB did not have this information, giving us another reason to question how the FDR data was created.
Structural engineer Allyn Kilsheimer claimed that he personally found AA77’s black box on 9/11. But in the Popular Mechanics book Debunking 9/11 Myths, Kilsheimer is quoted as saying, “I stood on a pile of debris that we later found contained the black box 70;”
Kilsheimer’s story changes again in August 2007 in a piece done by the History Channel, “The 9/11 Conspiracies,” where he claims “I tripped over something; it was the black box.”
In earlier work, Pilots for 9/11 Truth (P4T) has determined that the same data set provided by the NTSB shows the plane too high to hit the Pentagon, based on an altimeter that uses air pressure to calibrate altitude.
As reported in the April 2009 Rock Creek Free Press, Citizen Investigation Team, citizen journalists from southern California, has collected evidence from 14 eyewitnesses that shows that the plane seen that morning near the Pentagon did not hit the building, but flew over it at the moment explosives detonated in the Pentagon, leading observers to conclude that the plane had crashed into the Pentagon.
Questions about what happened at the Pentagon have intrigued 9/11 researchers for years, beginning with photos from the alleged crash scene which do not show the wreckage of a plane.
This new evidence, showing that the cockpit door never opened during flight, is another nail in the coffin of the official story about flight 77. Clearly, if the cockpit door never opened, then hijackers did not storm the cockpit and herd the pilots to the back of the plane. The data, which originated from the government, does not support the government’s story.
Why would the government release data which contradicts its own version of events? It is possible they were just sloppy, or that they never anticipated that anyone would parse the data as carefully as Pilots for 9/11 Truth have. They may have also felt secure, that regardless of what damning revelations were contained in the FDR data, no mainstream media outlet would give them ink or air time, keeping the official story intact for the vast majority of Americans who receive their news from mainstream sources.
Rob Balsamo, founder of Pilots for 9/11 Truth, stated: “We have not located any independently verified data which confirms the government’s story. The FBI and NTSB refuse to comment.” Founded in August 2006, Pilots For 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals from around the globe who are investigating the government’s claims about the attacks of 9/11.
Sheila Casey is a DC based journalist. Her work has appeared in The Denver Post, Reuters, Chicago Sun-Times, Dissident Voice and Common Dreams.
Poster Comment:
Here's a link to the Pilots for 9/11 Truth articles on the matter. 9/11: PENTAGON AIRCRAFT HIJACK IMPOSSIBLE
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#528. To: FormerLurker (#525)
As I pointed out earlier, you can only use momentum calculations when the amount of mass is known, and the collision is elastic, where there is no loss of kinetic energy during collions. Since the floors were pulverized, and much of the mass ejected laterally, any sort of momentum calculation would need to take that into account. Since the mass is UNKNOWN, you CAN'T use kinetic energy as the basis for the calculation, being that kinetic energy is lost in the transfer of energy required to pulverize the floors. I set it up one day as a Partial DiffEQ and it is a tricky calculation. I had a loudmouthed shill hounding me on another site (he claimed to have a degree in Physics). So, I set up the equation and told him to solve it. For some strange reason he never brought it up again. ;-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I take it you accounted for the loss of kinetic energy by estimating the amount of mass pulverized?
Hey nitwit, you're the Six Percenter who can't support your theories after 8 years. I owe you nothing, and have supplied more evidence and links than you ever have or can. The times, as well as exposes of the selective quoting and false editing by the k00kologists to try to make their false case, are already on links I've posted. If you can't even be bothered to sit through one minute and 30 seconds watching a video I've already posted, you've reached a new dumb low.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pull out that ol' equation.........AGA can solve it right now, pal.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
All you have is bullshit and invective. You can't refute the facts, so you resort to tap dancing, ad hominems, and outright distortions and fabrications in an effort to discredit any real information posted.
So in other words, you don't KNOW how long it took for the towers to collapse, nor how long it would take for an object to free fall from the 110th floor of the WTC, right?
I posted the information and it's in plain English. I'm not going to repeat it just because you think you're in a position to make demands. You're in an irrelvant minority, and shall remain so. You basically have no proof of your own, so your activity consists of trying to tear down thousands of pieces of evidence with nothing more than arm-waving allegations of manipulation and an unnamed evil cadre of deception whose sources you can't even identify. As such you're nothing more than a forumtroll in denial mode.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The top part of the building that began rotating away from the building was not 500,000 tons. The whole building might have been, but certainly not the top part. It was comparable to a much smaller lighter building, albeit made to withstand considerable swaying from strong winds. This ability to sway in strong winds shows that it would not disintegrate and fall apart due to not being vertical to the ground. What do you think apartment buildings in one of China's biggest cities are made for? Rental space?
God is always good!
I've repeatedly posted an explicit statement of both those factors. The fact you can't even acknowledge that, in spite of it being shown to you over and over, shows you're an agenda driven idiot, only posing questions for rhetorical effects and not to actually find out any facts.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whatever the weight of the top sections, there was no place where a fast-acting force could be anchored to push the rotating end more than a few feet from vertical centerline, and absorb the equal and opposite push back from the rotating end as it got farther away from vertical. Once the top rotated past a very small angle, it broke off from its base and from that point forward fell straight down instead of continuing to rotate and go farther away from the center of the building footprint. Compare the construction. The sideways fallen building is obviously much more cross braced than the WTC towers whose columns were only connected by floor trusses with angle clips at their ends. Chinese wanting space in their biggest cities have to take what they can get space wise. Nobody is going out of their way in China to make things easy for renters, because they don't have to.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I thought YOUR twoofer tale about cockpit doors not being opened was the topic of this thread. Has it spun off to make-believe towers that fell freefall because of demolition charges, too?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
What is so difficult to believe about the impact of a passenger jet aircraft destroying a support structure of a building? Without the pre-existing designed support structure holding the upper floors intact, that same falling mass further deteriorated the lower floors. Of course I am simplifying the issue but the fundamental point is the impact of the passenger jet aircraft into each of the towers was the trigger mechanism for structural failure; it was not from controlled demolitions.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Which post number contains the collapse time of either WTC tower?
I do believe it was either you or your sidekick AGAviator who brought up the WTC collapse. So do you believe the government provided the real flight data from Flight 77, or not?
Projecting again, eh?
No, you posted smart ass remarks, and misspelt interpretations of some tale you might have heard.
Can you or can you not provide a hard number in terms of the collapse times of the towers?
To be honest with you, I really don't fucking care anymore. That data has little relevance to the THOUSANDS of eyewitness accounts and the other photographic details showing the crash. The probable outcome of whether missing details as you are attempting to exploit will change anything past, present or future is about zero.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
So you don't care if the story is true or not, you just want to kiss the ass of those who perpetrated the attacks and allow them to do it again, right?
Those eyewitness reports indicate there were TWO aircraft that headed towards the Pentagon at the same time. Some saw am aircraft heading towards the Pentagon on a path originating SOUTH of the Citgo station, and some saw an aircraft heading towards the Pentagon from NORTH of the Citgo station. Here are the two flight paths. Thousands saw UFO lights over Phoenix......but in that case you call them all Kooks. Oh, and there is plenty of photographic details too. Thousands have witnessed Chemtrails along with thousands of pictures, but you deny that as well. Buck, why do you cherry pick which witnesses are relevant and which aren't?
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
More bs, buck. Those towers were designed to withstand the impact of commercial airliners. Towers' Design Parameters Twin Towers' Designers Anticipated Jet Impacts Like September 11th's Structural engineers who designed the Twin Towers carried out studies in the mid-1960s to determine how the buildings would fare if hit by large jetliners. In all cases the studies concluded that the Towers would survive the impacts and fires caused by the jetliners. Evidence of these studies includes interviews with and papers and press releases issued by engineers who designed and oversaw construction of the World Trade Center. 1960s-era Jetliners Compared to Boeing 767s Contrary to widely promoted misconceptions, the Boeing 767-200s used on 9/11/01 were only slightly larger than 707s and DC 8s, the types of jetliners whose impacts the World Trade Center's designers anticipated. Statements by Engineers Engineers who participated in the design of the World Trade Center have stated, since the attack, that the Towers were designed to withstand jetliner collisions. For example, Leslie Robertson, who is featured on many documentaries about the attack, said he "designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it."2 Statements and documents predating the attack indicate that engineers considered the effects of not only of jetliner impacts, but also of ensuing fires. John Skilling John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or McDonald Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there.3 A white paper released on February 3, 1964 states that the Towers could have withstood impacts of jetliners travelling 600 mph -- a speed greater than the impact speed of either jetliner used on 9/11/01. The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707—DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.4 On Feburary 13, 1965, real estate baron Lawrence Wien called reporters to his office to charge that the design of the Twin Towers was structurally unsound. Many suspected that his allegation was motivated by a desire to derail the planned World Trade Center skyscrapers to protect the value of his extensive holdings, which included the Empire State Building. In response to the charge, Richard Roth, partner at Emery Roth & Sons, the architectural firm that was designing the Twin Towers, fired back with a three-page telegram containing the following details.5 THE STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS CARRIED OUT BY THE FIRM OF WORTHINGTON, SKILLING, HELLE & JACKSON IS THE MOST COMPLETE AND DETAILED OF ANY EVER MADE FOR ANY BUILDING STRUCTURE. THE PRELIMINARY CALCULATIONS ALONE COVER 1,200 PAGES AND INVOLVE OVER 100 DETAILED DRAWINGS. ... 4. BECAUSE OF ITS CONFIGURATION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THAT OF A STEEL BEAM 209' DEEP, THE TOWERS ARE ACTUALLY FAR LESS DARING STRUCTURALLY THAN A CONVENTIONAL BUILDING SUCH AS THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WHERE THE SPINE OR BRACED AREA OF THE BUILDING IS FAR SMALLER IN RELATION TO ITS HEIGHT. ... 5. THE BUILDING AS DESIGNED IS SIXTEEN TIMES STIFFER THAN A CONVENTIONAL STRUCTURE. THE DESIGN CONCEPT IS SO SOUND THAT THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER HAS BEEN ABLE TO BE ULTRA- CONSERVATIVE IN HIS DESIGN WITHOUT ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ECONOMICS OF THE STRUCTURE. ... At the time the Twin Towers were built, the design approach of moving the support columns to the perimeter and the core, thereby creating large expanses of unobstructed floor space, was relatively new, and unique for a skyscraper. However, that approach is commonplace in contemporary skyscrapers. Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. It is of little relevance today; the outcome from (PilotsFor911Truth.org) you discovered which has been sprinkled around the Internet for a half a year or so means nothing to the facts already in the public. What are the actual credentials of this "independent researcher and computer programmer" is the main question. How do we know he/she is qualified to perform the job when many other experts haven't disclosed this data for nine years? What is a "computer programmer" is the question. And was he/she paid by (PilotsFor911Truth.org)? How was the data handled? Could the data have been tampered with in such a way that later verification processes is impossible? I care a lot. But I don't run around waving my arms to the world that I found the Holy Grail of exhibitions to disprove and dispell thousands of expert witnesses sworn testimony to a number of federal agencies. Is there a possibility that a significant piece of information has been uncovered? Yes, of course. And if so, why hasn't (PilotsFor911Truth.org) pursued this issue further with other experts other than a post on their web site that was eventually sprinkled around the Internet. The contents of FDR files (there are two) are in .csv format and can be viewed AND modified by your MSExcel software. It is located here in a compressed zip format (both .csv files). You should be able to right click on the link and save the file for your own perusal. Good luck!
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Go to his website and find out... Yup, and you allow for a couple other variables but the big one is, as you point out, the decrease in the mass "m" as the tower crumbles, which affects "A" (acceleration) in increments proportional the decrease in the mass as a function of time. As well you need the number for the starting mass of the tower above the point where the collapse initiates at time 0. So, you have to account for m, K, and A simultaneously along with the resitance "R" of the structure underneath and then as a function of time with a decreasing value of "m". The solution with "R" = 0 is the one that tells you the expected rate of collapse if it is a controlled demolition. It is a non-trivial problem. I'd have to set down and rethink it because it was about 7 years ago when I first went through the exercise. I found the mass number approximation online but I'll be damned if I remember where - it's on a dead hard drive on a computer I no longer have.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
BTW, what ever happened to the Pentagon surveilance camera videos? Not the one with the obscured ground view, but the ones with unobscured views of the approach? Tell that data to the taxi cab driver whose taxi was destroyed by the lamppost#1. Those two cops are mistaken. Ask any taxicab driver who was on duty that day what happened. Washington DC was buzzing with gossip because of the tragedy.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Why should I find out? As I told you, the burden is on the folks at (PilotsFor911Truth.org); they made the claim; they paid for the data; they maintain the data on their website. You should have that data now. Evaluate it yourself.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Why should I find out? As I told you, the burden is on the folks at (PilotsFor911Truth.org); they made the claim; they paid for the data; they maintain the data on their website. You should have that data now. Evaluate it yourself. You're being evasive buckie. I'll bet you looked and found that the Argumentum Ad Hominem you were trying to set up is a loser. Of course it is always a loser to anyone who understands logic. The data is true, not true, or uncertain in three state logic. Which is it? You're the one demanding people be your research librarian and waste their time looking up stuff you will then promptly ignore. FL gave you the link. Do your own effing research for your ad hominem attacks.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Sunday, July 01, 2007 The 2nd Plane Cover Story "I distinctly remember having a difficult time keeping the AA flight in sight after we turned back to the east to follow it per a request from Wash. Departure Control. When I saw the initial explosion I was not able to see exactly where or what it had impacted, but remember trying to approximate a position to give to ATC. It was then that I was able to see the sun reflecting off the Potomac and the runway at Wash. Nat'l and thought to myself that the AA flight must have had some sort of IFE (in flight emergency) and was trying to make it back to National Airport." *For more information regarding confiscated 911 tapes click here. *For a video presentation featuring exclusive CIT interviews with Keith Wheelhouse, Joel Sucherman, and Vin Narayanan click here. Because you asked. So what are you telling me, you're asking me to waste my time so that you can ignore whatever I post in response to your questions?
After 8 years you can't even come close to saying what or whose ass that is. That's pretty conclusive proof you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. What's life like, being in a codependent relationship with figments of your imagination, anyway? ROFL!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You've been provided them over and over. Does the sight of Rosie putting on her game face, and bellowing about free fall times and impossibilites, so excite you that you can't remember anything before, during, or after those easily debunked utterances? LOLOL!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions of the author above who states that there couldn't have been a 2nd plane, I just found the eyewitness reports curious enough that it warranted some examination.
I've already explained it, and even buckie understood. In fact, he's the one who spelled it out in terms of who is controlling the Iraqi oil right now. You need to look at who benefits, and who doesn't.
Those eye witnesses do not confirm the story that Buckaroo and AGAvaiator want to believe........so they don't count.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
You have not once after 563 posts provided that information, you have tap danced, jumped up and down, and sang out of tune, but not once have you posted any numbers concerning actual collapse times. You CLAIM that you have, yet you can't find ONE post where you did, and refuse to type in a number into the comments window, yet can find the time to post hundreds and hundreds of words that all come down to the same thing, which is, "I dont know".
I provided the raw .csv file for FormerLurker and anyone else. Since you are so goddamned smart, you save the file and view it. It is a modifiable file which means ANYONE could make the claim as some so-called researcher claims. If the file had been properly released by the officiating government agency, it should have been in a pdf or similar R/O (NON-MODIFIABLE) format ..... so, I don't EVEN BELIEVE THE BS FROM THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE ON THIS THREAD. The story is phoney.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Post the taxi cab driver's story. Here's what the two Pentagon officers had to say...
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestThe paper takes the transfer of momentum into account. Like a billiard ball being hit by another on a pool table, each floor transferred its momentum to the next as represented below. The more weight, the less resistance each floor gave.
#529. To: Original_Intent (#528)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#530. To: FormerLurker (#526)
(Edited)
I don't want to read BS and tap dancing, I want you to provide some figures and hard numbers.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#531. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#528)
So, I set up the equation and told him to solve it. For some strange reason he never brought it up again. ;-)
#532. To: AGAviator (#530)
Hey nitwit, you're the Six Percenter who can't support your theories after 8 years
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#533. To: AGAviator (#530)
If you can't even be bothered to sit through one minute and 30 seconds watching a video I've already posted, you've reached a new dumb low.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#534. To: FormerLurker (#532)
You can't refute the facts, so you resort to tap dancing, ad hominems, and outright distortions and fabrications in an effort to discredit any real information posted.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#535. To: AGAviator (#513)
Smaller buildings weighing far less than 500,000 tons can be affected by various sideways forces much more than huge buildings neeing huge forces to move them.
#536. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#533)
So in other words, you don't KNOW how long it took for the towers to collapse, nor how long it would take for an object to free fall from the 110th floor of the WTC, right?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#537. To: RickyJ (#535)
(Edited)
The top part of the building that began rotating away from the building was not 500,000 tons. The whole building might have been, but certainly not the top part.
What do you think apartment buildings in one of China's biggest cities are made for? Rental space?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#538. To: FormerLurker (#533)
#539. To: AGAviator (#536)
I've repeatedly posted an explicit statement of both those factors.
#540. To: AGAviator (#536)
I've repeatedly posted an explicit statement of both those factors.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#541. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#538)
I thought YOUR twoofer tale about cockpit doors not being opened was the topic of this thread. Has it spun off to make-believe towers that fell freefall because of demolition charges, too?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#542. To: AGAviator (#534)
As such you're nothing more than a forumtroll in denial mode.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#543. To: AGAviator (#534)
I posted the information and it's in plain English. I'm not going to repeat it just because you think you're in a position to make demands. You're in an irrelvant minority, and shall remain so.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#544. To: AGAviator (#536)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#545. To: FormerLurker (#541)
So do you believe the government provided the real flight data from Flight 77, or not?
#546. To: buckeroo (#545)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#547. To: buckeroo (#545)
That data has little relevance to the THOUSANDS of eyewitness accounts and the other photographic details showing the crash.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#548. To: buckeroo (#545)
That data has little relevance to the THOUSANDS of eyewitness accounts and the other photographic details showing the crash
#549. To: buckeroo (#539)
Of course I am simplifying the issue but the fundamental point is the impact of the passenger jet aircraft into each of the towers was the trigger mechanism for structural failure
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#550. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#546)
(Edited)
So you don't care if the story is true or not, you just want to kiss the ass of those who perpetrated the attacks and allow them to do it again, right?
Newly decoded data provided by an independent researcher and computer programmer from Australia exposes alarming evidence that the reported hijacking aboard American Airlines Flight 77 was impossible to have existed. A data parameter labeled "FLT DECK DOOR", cross checks with previously decoded data obtained by Pilots For 9/11 Truth from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) through the Freedom Of Information Act.
#551. To: buckeroo, ALL (#545)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#552. To: buckeroo (#550)
What are the actual credentials of this "independent researcher and computer programmer" is the main question. How do we know he/she is qualified to perform the job when many other experts haven't disclosed this data for nine years?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#553. To: FormerLurker, abraxas (#529)
I take it you accounted for the loss of kinetic energy by estimating the amount of mass pulverized?
#554. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#545)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#555. To: FormerLurker (#551)
#556. To: FormerLurker (#552)
Go to his website and find out...
#557. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#556)
Go to his website and find out...
#558. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, RickyJ, Artisan, wudidiz, abraxas, James Deffenbach, Rotara, Eric Stratton, ALL (#550)
The complex topography, landscape, and sheer size of the Pentagon create a scenario where people on the alleged impact side of the Pentagon -- who would even have a view of this portion of the building at all -- would most readily be fooled by the sleight of hand deception of a plane timed perfectly with the explosion.
However, there are some areas of 395 and up in the Crystal City high-rises where people would have been able to see the flyover no problem. Here is a shot from the top floor of the Doubletree Hotel that shows what would have been a perfect view of the flyover:
Anybody who may have noticed a plane flying over the building were handled with a cover story about a 2nd plane. There were additional planes called into the area and there were reports of a 2nd plane that allegedly "shadowed" the AA jet and "veered away" over the Pentagon immediately after the explosion. The two known planes there were reported in the airspace neart the time of the attack are a C-130 and an E4B that came in a few minutes later. For confusion the flyover plane and the C-130 accounts were ambiguously blended by fabricated accounts of some sort of second military plane/jet shadowing/chasing along the same flight path then veering off/peeling off and up into the air. That way anyone who might have seen the flyover jet would be thrown off by these fabricated accounts that bring this alleged ambiguous 2nd plane that much closer to the time of impact, essentially veering away simultaneously with the explosion...
Vin Narayanan:
-"I hopped out of my car after the jet exploded, nearly oblivious to a second *jet* hovering in the skies".
Joel Sucherman:
-Sucherman saw another plane climb steeply and make a sharp turn. "I thought, 'Is this thing coming around to make a second attack? If there is another explosion, we're toast.'"..."another plane started veering up and to the side. At that point it wasn't clear if that plane was trying to maneuver out of the air space or if that plane was coming round for another hit. 
Kelly Knowles:
...she saw a second plane in the air *over the Pentagon* *as* a hijacked jet plunged into the five-sided military fortress...some sort of plane followed the doomed American Airlines jet toward the Pentagon, then veered away after the explosion. "Thank God somebody else saw that. There was most definitely a second plane, " Knowles said. "It's so frustrating because nobody knows about the second plane, or if they do they're hiding it for some reason." (Kelly sounds like a great actress) Pentagon official said late Friday no other plane was flying with the jetliner. But he said it was possible a military plane was in the area at the time of the attack. (that would sure fool a lot of people who saw a jet fly away)
Keith Wheelhouse:
-He believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon....As the hijacked jet started its descent, "it's like it stepped on its gas pedal, " Wheelhouse said. "As soon as he did that, the second plane banked off to the west." A possible explanation for the second plane could be a plane landing at nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport . The Pentagon is between the cemetery and the airport... (He) said it's possible the second plane was a military plane, but the military has not said it had a plane shadowing the hijacked jet." 
*-Both Keith and Kelly, as well as at least one other person at the funeral (Pam Young), insist that there was another plane flying near the hijacked jet... the other three witnesses say they're not sure what the plane looked like."
Keith Wheelhouse eventually confirmed it as a C-130, but the "other three witnesses", kept it ambiguous enough to still make people think there WAS a military jet chasing/shadowing and that Keith Wheelhouse (who we've interviewed) may be "wrong". It kept people in confusion and the scenario regarding this alleged 2nd plane ambiguous.
...So the "second plane/jet" was eventually explained as being the C-130 piloted by Lt Col Steve O'Brien who never shadowed or chased the plane. He actually lost sight of it after if passed in front of him and he turned around. He was never near AND/OR over the Pentagon at the time of alleged impact (explosion & fireball). In fact it would be physically impossible for him to keep up with a 530 mph jet, when a C-130 can only travel maximum 379 mph. He didn't show up to the scene until approximately 3 minutes later at a much higher altitude.
We learned from an e-mail exchange with him that he was too high and far away to even see the Pentagon!
C-130 Pilot Lt. Col. Steve O'Brien:
Clearly the "2nd plane" that Wheelhouse and others described shadowing the jet was NOT the C-130.
Why wasn't this "2nd plane" more widely reported if it was really in the area at the same time as the attack?
Why didn't any of the CITGO witnesses see this 2nd plane?
Because there was no 2nd plane seen immediately after or at the same time as the explosion but ambiguous reports suggesting this were meant to confuse people who really saw the plane fly over the building.
So...for the sake of argument, pretend you were in the Doubletree on the top floor looking out the window (like in picture at beginning) and you saw the big explosion and the plane flying away from the building. If you didn't report it you might wonder about what you saw and look into it only to find reports of this mysterious 2nd plane. Obviously that would satisfy most people. But there may have been some that called in to report this plane flying over the Pentagon immediately after a massive explosion. However...we will NEVER know what people initially reported because conveniently for the perpetrators...the 911 calls were confiscated and permanently sequestered.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#559. To: buckeroo (#556)
Why should I find out?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#560. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#546)
So you don't care if the story is true or not, you just want to kiss the ass of those who perpetrated the attacks and allow them to do it again, right?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#561. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#544)
Can you or can you not provide a hard number in terms of the collapse times of the towers?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#562. To: All (#558)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#563. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#560)
After 8 years you can't even come close to saying what or whose ass that is.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#564. To: FormerLurker (#558)
#565. To: AGAviator (#561)
You've been provided them over and over.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#566. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#557)
#567. To: buckeroo (#555)
Tell that data to the taxi cab driver whose taxi was destroyed by the lamppost#1. Those two cops are mistaken.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
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