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Title: The Hypocrisy and Cruelty of the Leftist Feminist
Source: The Libertarian Enterprise
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jul 14, 2010
Author: Bob Wallace
Post Date: 2010-07-14 17:54:01 by Turtle
Keywords: None
Views: 397
Comments: 38

“Feminists of the Sixties and Seventies,” wrote Nicci Gerrard in The Guardian, “have had to pay a terrible price for their dedication – most of them are forgotten, reviled, poor, and alone.”

How did they end up like this? Didn’t the late Betty Friedan but still-blathering Gloria Steinem promise them otherwise? Paradise on Earth? Of course, there is oftentimes a difference between what one promises and what does in one’s personal life – that is the definition of hypocrisy. And what Friedan and Steinem promised to others, and what they did in their personal lives, made them the vilest of hypocrites.

Both of these women insisted women follow their teachings, when they, in their personal lives, didn’t follow them at all. In actuality, they lived their lives in exact opposition to what they told women to do.

Friedan’s most famous book is The Feminine Mystique. A Marxist tract written by a Stalinist, it was about “patriarchy” and “capitalism” and “female oppression,” A best-seller and a very influential book, it was, in many ways, the start of ‘60s feminism.

Yet, when Friedan wrote it, she was married to a very wealthy man and living in a mansion on the Hudson River in New York. She was not employed, and in fact never had a job in her life – unless pontificating counts as one. The housework in the mansion, not surprisingly, was done by a maid.

All of this is of course rank hypocrisy. A woman speaking of downtrodden and oppressed women while living a life of luxury so opulent that the housework was something done by domestic servants? How could she possibly know anything about the average woman’s life?

I can somewhat understand Friedan’s hatred. She was an extremely ugly woman and most probably permanently corroded by envy, which she, like many envious people, covered up with a spurious desire for “social justice.” Yet somehow she ended up in the top 1% of the nation economically. Still, she wanted to destroy – to engage in that envious attempt to bring others down. That’s what envy invariably does to people.

Gloria Steinem, in her own way, was worse than Friedan: she was very attractive, oftentimes appearing in boots and mini-skirts, but misused her appeal. She was the glamorous poster-girl of feminism, making it seem a wonderfully easy thing to do.

In her books, her articles and her many well-paid public appearances, she insisted that marriage and romance were a trap and a delusion for women, and that they could never fulfill themselves unless they learned to be economically and financially self-sufficient.

So how did Steinem lead her life?

Starting in college, she saw the same wealthy man -- television writer, producer and musician Blair Chotzinoff -- for close to 30 years. They were going to get married, but she called it off in college. Still, she saw him for three decades.

She called her relationship with him “a romance.” People told of seeing both of them walking arm and arm in the park, and dining and drinking wine in cozy restaurants. She said this romance was about “passion and curiosity.”

For three years she was involved with Mort Zuckerman, a wealthy faux-conservative who bought her expensive presents. Now why would a flaming liberal feminist be involved with a “capitalist” and a “conservative”? Does love and money trump ideology? It does appear so in Steinem’s case.

Her friends remember her visiting fertility clinics in order to determine if she could have children with Zuckerman.

Steinem never said a good thing about marriage in her life. She called it “an ownership contract” and that married women were “part-time prostitutes.” She also said repeatedly she would never get married, and that women needed men the way “a fish needs a bicycle.”

Then one day she met a wealthy South African, David Bale. Not long after she dressed in white, he held her hand, and they got married in a park. She claimed things had changed and now marriage was acceptable. She never explained how things had changed so rapidly, when in fact she had still viciously attacked marriage less than two years before she tied the knot.

Peter Schweizer in his Do As I Say (Not As I Do) referred to Steinem as a “hopeless romantic, dependent female, [and] serial monogamist.” In her mind these things were good for her but bad for other women – if they acted like her they were traitors to Steinem’s leftist cause. Again, rank hypocrisy on her part.

Other feminists have shown the same hypocrisy. Susan Brownmiller wrote a famous book, Against our Will, in which she claimed men were rapists who use rape to dominate women. Yet she admitted she always wanted men and marriage and romance. Like Germaine Greer (author of he Female Eunuch), another lost leftist-feminist soul, she never got them. I wonder if their hostility and repeated false accusations against men had anything to with it?

People, unfortunately, are flawed creatures, and can be very deluded. While Friedan and Steinem were cavorting in the limelight and living lives of serial monogamy with very wealthy men, many of the women who believed their lies ended up as Nicci Gerrard described them.

Friedan and Steinem got what all of us want – importance and meaning and community in their lives. Yet they were engaging in one of the worst things people can do – they were lying to themselves. And before you can lie to others (even if you don’t know you are lying to them) you first have to lie to yourself.

I do not understand the blindness and cruelty of people like Friedan and Steinem, except to blame it on their self-deception (which also leads to them rationalizing their behavior). This self-deception appears to be some kind of mental illness, some sort of cognitive dissonance that allowed them to do one thing and say the exact opposite with no sense of anything being wrong. To use an old saying, the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing.

How could Steinem so brutally put down men and romance and marriage for other women when they were what she wanted in life more than anything else? Did it ever occur to her some women would look up to her, believe her, and years later find that by following Steinem’s pronouncements their lives had become self-defeating, self-destructive and unworkable? Yet I’m sure in her mind, with her self-deception and rationalization, there is no guilt and no responsibility for what she did to her loyal followers.

No one can make it on their own. There cannot be employees without employers, or employers without employees. There cannot be children without parents, or parents without children. There cannot be husbands without wives or wives without husbands. Everyone and everything is connected to everyone else, and everything else. Nobody is “independent.” It doesn’t exist.

So when Friedan and Steinem lectured about “independence” and “autonomy” as being desirable feminist goals, they were speaking of things that don’t exist This, of course, is something neither would ever believe.

Both Friedan and Steinem would have been typical leftist cranks except that they and others like them were able to get laws passed damaging the relationships between men and women. We have for many years been reaping what they sowed – the behemoth known as the State doing its damndest to destroy marriage and the family.

In the long run, none of this damaging leftist feminism will last, because it goes against human nature.—and human nature, contrary to leftist delusions, is neither a blank slate nor infinitely malleable.

Unfortunately, there will be a lot of heartbreak and wrecked lives until better days arrive.

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#1. To: Turtle (#0)

So when Friedan and Steinem lectured about “independence” and “autonomy” as being desirable feminist goals, they were speaking of things that don’t exist This, of course, is something neither would ever believe.

I don't blame these "women".

If the ones that swallowed this hook, line and sinker were too f'n stupid to realize that what was being preached was "independence and autonomy", but they were dependent on friedan and steinem to tell them how to live, then they deserve what they got: a shotgun shack full of cats.

I just love it when some woman tells me how strong and independent she is. If you are strong and independent, saying you are is downright silly and indicates a lie.

.


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PSUSA  posted on  2010-07-14   18:04:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: PSUSA (#1)

I just love it when some woman tells me how strong and independent she is. If you are strong and independent, saying you are is downright silly and indicates a lie.

.

The biggest red flag I've seen in when they say, "I don't need a man in my life."

Sorry, hon, you're deceiving yourself. That's exactly what you do want.

St. Ausgustine on the State: "It was a criminal band that achieved legitimacy not by renouncing aggression, but rather by attaining impunity."

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-14   18:07:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Turtle (#0)

Her friends remember her visiting fertility clinics in order to determine if she could have children with Zuckerman.

Good piece. I understand Zuckerman has a testosterone level of an earth worm.

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Jethro Tull  posted on  2010-07-14   18:09:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Turtle (#2)

The biggest red flag I've seen in when they say, "I don't need a man in my life."

Sorry, hon, you're deceiving yourself. That's exactly what you do want.

In just two sentences you are confusing WANT and NEED--two completely different verbs. A woman shouldn't NEED a man around.....she should WANT one around. Ditto for men--they should WANT a woman but not NEED a woman around.

Need is so desperate......it's fine for children but not so attractive in adults.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-14   20:31:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Jethro Tull (#3)

Zuckerman has a testosterone level of an earth worm.

lol.....

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-14   20:32:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Turtle (#0)

While I don't know enough about Friedan to comment Steinem was working for the CIA and basically admitted so when she put in her book that the CIA was the funding source for the start-up of her rag "Ms. Magazine". Feminism was a PsyOp and it was intended to disrupt the culture and wage war on the family unit. Psychiatrists were ultimately the "minds" behind the PsyOp and the hostility toward the family in Feminism parallels that in Psychiatry.

"Every child in America entering school at the age of five is insane because he comes to school with certain allegiances toward our Founding Fathers, toward his parents, toward our elected officials, toward a belief in a supernatural being, and toward the sovereignty of this nation as a separate entity. It's up to you, teachers, to make all of these sick children well by creating the international child of the future." Chester Pierce, Harvard University to a 1973 Education Seminar in Denver.

"The family is now one of the major obstacles to improved mental health, and hence should be weakened, if possible, so as to free individuals and especially children from the coercion of family life." International Congress on Mental Health, London, 1948

"The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process." -- Linda Gordon

"Since marriage constitutes slavery for women, it is clear that the women's movement must concentrate on attacking this institution. Freedom for women cannot be won without the abolition of marriage." -- Sheila Cronin, the leader of the feminist organization NOW

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-14   21:29:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: abraxas (#4)

I NEED a bowl of Ice Cream. It's damned hot here.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-14   21:30:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Original_Intent (#7)

Why yes, ice cream would qualify as a bonafied NEED. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-14   22:46:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: abraxas (#8)

Why yes, ice cream would qualify as a bonafied NEED. : )

(((Chuckle.)))

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-14   23:17:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: abraxas (#4)

In just two sentences you are confusing WANT and NEED

Every woman I've known who has said, "I don't need a man in my life" has been desperately dependent on them and desperate for a relationship. Without exception.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-15   10:46:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Turtle (#10)

Every woman I've known who has said, "I don't need a man in my life" has been desperately dependent on them and desperate for a relationship. Without exception.

Yes. And to put a keener edge on the observation, it is only through a governmental system that forces support of "independent women" via taxes taken from men, where men are legally prohibited from essentially being men in most capacities, where women are given legal preference in all cases, but where these facts are not allowed to be discussed, can feminists run around screeching about how independent they are.

Without such an artificial construct erected to support them, all on the backs of the men they say they don't need and are independent of, they'd quickly come to realize their actual dependence on men.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   10:54:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: SonOfLiberty (#11)

Without such an artificial construct erected to support them, all on the backs of the men they say they don't need and are independent of, they'd quickly come to realize their actual dependence on men.

Whenever I ran across women saying they were independent, I ask them who gave them a job, built the building they live in, manufactured their car and TV, refined their gasoline, supplied their energy and food, worked on their teeth and did their surgeries...they look as me speechless, because it's never occured to them just how dependent everyone is one everyone else.

Especially since about 99% of everything in the world has been invented by men.

As P.J. O'Rourke said, without men civilization would last until the next oil change.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-15   11:08:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Turtle (#10)

Every woman I've known who has said, "I don't need a man in my life" has been desperately dependent on them and desperate for a relationship. Without exception.

lol......there must be some reason why you are attracting such losers Turtle. : P

Women who NEED a man generally have little self worth and end up attracted another person who has equally low self worth. Need implies that the person isn't whole without a "relationship" to complete them. Hence, my correlation with need and desperate, like the ladies you have known.

WANT is the verb of preference, IMHO.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   11:12:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: abraxas (#13)

lol......there must be some reason why you are attracting such losers Turtle. : P

I didn't say I was attracting them. I just know a lot of women like this. And I stand by my statement: any woman who feels it necessary to announce to men (along with the other huge red flag -- "I love myself" -- that she doesn't "need a man in my life" is lying to herself.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-15   11:16:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Turtle (#14)

that she doesn't "need a man in my life" is lying to herself.

I stand by my statement if she "needs" then she is desperate.

Smart women WANT, but do not NEED and aren't lying to anybody about it. Frankly, I've never known a man stupid enough to prefer a woman needing him over wanting him.

If she can't love herself, then she isn't going to be able to love any man in her life........that man will simply be there to fill the void.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   11:21:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: abraxas (#13)

I understand what you're saying, in a way, but keep in mind that the word "need" was corrupted by psychiatrists just a few decades ago.

Truth is, people do need each other. We're social beings, we don't do well isolated and without contact. Our sexual urge is our strongest impulse, by far (no matter how it is expressed or hidden). Ergo, men and women both feel a very strong biological and mental need of each other. There's nothing wrong with that. If we didn't need social contact, or the even stronger sexually related social contact, we'd not reproduce as a species. I'm not talking just lust here, but the impulse that drives us not only to mate but to stick around and raise the kid. Many species do NOT have sexes that "need" each other outside of momentary lust, and they part ways right after the act and become enemies immediately afterward.

Primates, especially Man, are opposite. When placed in isolation, primates go insane, literally. They need that social contact, in the full sense of the word need. People are even more sensitive, since we posses higher reasoning and awareness. That's why one of the harshest punishments for prisoners is solitary confinement (or in ages past, locked in a dark cell, alone, with no contact with outsiders, even the guards).

What was sold to us from the 1960's forward as "need", was clingy-ness, suffocating ever present contact, continual exposure to the point of demanding. In other words, the things we used to call pathetic behavior. But along with those definitions, psychiatry never de-tethered the actual healthy need we feel for the opposite sex. I suspect that this was on purpose. A package deal. Their main goal, after all, is to socially isolate us mentally, even if we're surrounded by millions. Then we go mad, and a madman is so very easy to control.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   11:27:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: SonOfLiberty, . abraxas (#16)

People "need" each other; there is no way around. As I said, no one is "independent." People "need" someone else to supply their food, clothing, medical and dental care, cars, TVs, etc.

No one can supply these things themselves. So when people tell me they're independent, I explain to them they are nothing of the sort.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-15   11:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: SonOfLiberty (#16)

psychiatry never de-tethered the actual healthy need we feel for the opposite sex

That's because "want" is the healthy choice, SOL......as I've been saying.

Hey, respect my AUTHORITY!!! lol

Actually, I agree with most of your post, if only you would remove need and insert want. Also, I think "want" is a healthier concept for relationships. Couples who continue to want one another, rather than focus on need for one another, are healthier and happier.

We all want to be wanted........but you can't say the same for need.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   11:35:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Turtle (#17)

People are interconnected, yes, not independent in the sense of a collective society and such.

But, you are wrong. People do live independently. I've known a few up in MT who hunt their own food, grow their own food, foregoe medical and dental care along with TV's--are you serious in thinking that TV is a need?

People would be much better off if they didn't NEED so much TV. That's an addiction right there......not healthy, nor something people NEED to survive.

It's sad that you are so far removed from what people are capable of Turtle. Yes, people for eons have been able to supply food and clothing for themselves. Sheesh, the shopping mall is a relatively new invention.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   11:41:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: abraxas (#19)

But, you are wrong. People do live independently. I've known a few up in MT who hunt their own food, grow their own food, foregoe medical and dental care along with TV's--are you serious in thinking that TV is a need?

Try living without air or food or some kind of clothing or shelter...no one is independent.

Hundreds of years ago some king took babies and let no one talk to them...he thought maybe their natural language might be Hebrew. Every one of the babies died.

No one is independent. It doesn't exist. We were all dependent as babies and children to take care of us...all of us are dependent as adults. People just can't admit it.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-15   11:51:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: abraxas (#18)

I think its semantics. Actual need is there. It's not unhealthy. What's unhealthy is obsession and desperation, which your definition of "need" indicates (and which psychiatry packaged along with the traditional understanding of "need"). And I do agree, obsession (or being clingy, or desperate) is something to avoid. But we can't get away from needing each other psychologically. There are exceptions to this of course, and we call those people hermits, mad/insane or sociopaths, historically. Need (or in your parlance, "want") kept to a reasonable level, keeps us motivated as a species. We're a social species, we need social contact, we don't just want it, we actually need it to stay sane. The word "want" is not a strong enough term, I may want some ice cream, but it doesn't really affect my day or well being if I don't get any that day, or even for a year. I may be a bit tiffed, but life goes on. Put me in social isolation, and I go for real bonkers rather quickly (as do most people).

I'm trying to noodle an analogy that makes sense. Think of oxygen. You need oxygen (for real need it, or you die). If you do not have oxygen, you have a very strong impulse to acquire it, you don't just "want" the oxygen, you need it. Yet, if you get too much oxygen, you poison your system and die (if you're in normal health). So once you get the levels you need, you are satisfied with it, you don't keep pressing for more and more oxygen out of some kind of psychological desperation, you hit a natural equilibrium. I think social contact, especially with the opposite sex, works the same. Without the contact, you don't just think "gosh, I want a woman in my life" and go do a crossword puzzle. It's more intense. Once you have the contact, if you're a normal healthy person, your psychological need is satisfied, you don't keep pushing it and pursuing the person to the limits of the sky (hence, desperation).

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   11:55:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: abraxas (#19)

But, you are wrong. People do live independently.

Even people who live independently, still associate with others, they have to, the impulse will always be there, we're a highly social species. Unless you're talking about hermits, total social recluses who do not associate with any living creature (humans, pets), whom are a type of person that are usually, and rightfully, considered stark raving mad.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   12:01:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Turtle (#20)

Try living without air or food or some kind of clothing or shelter...no one is independent.

People can, do and have provided food and shelter and clothing for themselves.

Air doesn't belong in the same sentence.

We are dependendent as babies, as I've said along. As adults, we have this thing called free will. You can't apply what babies need to what adults need, it's not an apples to apples comparison. You think people NEED TV so it's hard for me to take your commentary too seriously.

I'm telling you that I have known people who have provided their own clothing, food and shelter--off the grid completely.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   12:02:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: SonOfLiberty (#22)

Association doesn't make them dependent. In fact, what I witnessed was that people on the outside seek these people out because they have expertise in a variety of topics now foreign to the "modern" world.

Often, they would like to be more reclusive than they are allowed to be.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   12:08:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: SonOfLiberty (#21)

I'm trying to noodle an analogy that makes sense. Think of oxygen. You need oxygen (for real need it, or you die).

It's more intense. Once you have the contact, if you're a normal healthy person, your psychological need is satisfied, you don't keep pushing it and pursuing the person to the limits of the sky (hence, desperation).

This is precisely my point. I NEED water. I NEED air.

I WANT relationships with others..........and I will survive, even if the relationship does not. However, I NEED air and I cannot survive without it.

Your analogy for needing contact with the opposite sex doesn't work on many levels. Gay people, for instance, claim a NEED for contact with the same sex. People actually opt for a life of celebacy and succeed in this venture, therefor, this sexual drive is not a NEED as you claim, but a choice which is governed by free will or massive determination/conviction. Either way, people do not die for lack of sex.

What are these psychological needs you speak of? In most cases, I question the validity of what phsychology deems as NEED.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   13:11:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: abraxas (#25) (Edited)

We *need* relationships. Or we go horribly insane. Horribly insane people, do not live long, without support from outside.

Whether you're celibate or not, you still have a sex drive, lacking any diagnosed *sickness*, hormonal imbalance or malady. You simply repress it (not you you, the third person you), and direct it towards other ends. Even if you're a happy celibate, you still need social relationships with others (or, bonkerland you go). Gay people are fulfilling their need for a relationship (and sexual-social contact) the same as heterosexual people. The analogy sticks. Even supposed "independent" people normally have pets (a social interaction). It's inescapable. It's not just a want, like "I want some ice cream, ho hum". It's a real driving need. Isolate yourself from all human (and social animal contact, like cats/dogs/etc. for a year (including television, books, media, music, etc). Everything that would even remind you people exist. Let me know how it turns out.

Sorry, but our brains are wired to need social relationships. Which is not the same thing as "desperation" as the psychiatric "profession" has told you is "need". You're working from a fad 1970's definition, put forward by Marxist psychological theorists. They want to break you from everybody, isolate you, atomize you. Once you stop "needing" anybody, they'll start chipping away at "people's rather psychologically sick desire to want others in a social context". Once you accept that atomization, you'll reach out for anything that offers the comfort you. Guess who will be there providing you with a sibling like "love". A big brother if you will.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   13:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: SonOfLiberty (#26)

We *need* relationships. Or we go horribly insane. Horribly insane people, do not live long, without support from outside.

No, this simply isn't true. Hermits, mystics and yogis have chosen the loner path for years in order to seek a stronger relationship with the Divine. Nuns opt for celebacy and do fine, although priests doen't seem to succeed so much. There are milions of extremely ugly people SOL who aren't and probably shouldn't be having sexual relationships.

You are basing your analysis from your perspective, which is understandable since that's the one you have, but it doesn't fit all people.

In your last analogy regarding air, the correlation between desparate and need is obvious. It doesn't fit with for relationships. People have many, they don't drop dead without them. Some people don't have any and they don't drop dead from not having this "need" fulfilled.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   13:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: abraxas (#27)

No, this simply isn't true.

Yes, it is. Primatologist studies confirm it over and over again. Social isolation causes madness in primates. Including us.

Hermits, mystics and yogis have chosen the loner path for years in order to seek a stronger relationship with the Divine.

And almost without exception, these people are regarded as raving mad (except by their followers, who never oddly follow their social isolation paths, go figure).

Nuns opt for celebacy and do fine,

No they don't. Modern nuns are largely lesbian (or so I've heard). And not having sex is not the same thing as not needing a relationship with others. They need social relationships, which is why they hang out together. Even a "relationship with the Divine" is a social act, a subset of the need for social interaction.

People have many, they don't drop dead without them.

That's because they form surrogate relationships with others (normally, pets). We're social. It's hard wired. Even "loners" have some level of social ability, because it's built in.

Some people don't have any and they don't drop dead from not having this "need" fulfilled

They have nobody to talk to, no pets, no contact with others at all whatsoever, no radio, no television, no internet, no siblings, no parents (alive), nothing? Are they located on that island with Tom Hanks then?

That was a fun movie btw. A decent example of how people will go bats when forced into complete isolation. Spalding, was his surrogate. I generally don't take examples from the movies for much, but that was a pretty decent character study of that kind of behavior.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   14:04:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: SonOfLiberty (#28)

You know, I don't argue the power of the desire......what I argue is that it is a need.

Earth is a very populated planet. But it hasn't always been that way for humanity. People used to have to really go it alone for long lengths of time to get anywhere and they had to be much more independent simply to survive.

Nowadays people thnk they NEED a cell phone and tv and all sorts of crap that was never needed in the past.

Did you read about that recent study where the chimp raised by humans, had biological desires for human women? He no longer found his kind attractive, only human blonds. What happened to his "need" for his own kind?

Some really great thinkers lived their lives in isolation by choice, not by necessity. Newton and Tesla are two that come to mind and both died alone.

SOL, that was a movie. Yes, Tom Hanks was great, but is was a MOVIE.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   14:19:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: SonOfLiberty (#28)

They have nobody to talk to, no pets, no contact with others at all whatsoever, no radio, no television, no internet, no siblings, no parents (alive), nothing?

I thought we were discussing human relationships here, which baits the question of what constitutes a relationship? Is it an acquintance or does the word relationship imply much more than that? I don't think that simply because people interact with other people that constitutes a relationship.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   14:23:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: abraxas (#30) (Edited)

Even casual encounters and "how you doing" chats help sate the need we have for social interaction, it is a form of a relationship. Not the touchy feely Oprah defined relationship where you get all entangled in the other person at a deep level, just a social relationship aka casual. Even nodding to the grocer every time you're in the store is a form of a social relationship.

We're talking about our *need* for social relationships. If we can't find one with humans, we make one with pets. Lacking pets, we'll make one with a divine being on the fly. Lacking faith we'll invent one with a Spalding volleyball. It's there. We need social interactions, some level of social relationship. If we don't have any social contact, we go crazy, sometimes fatally so.

If you ever get a chance to read any of the social isolation primate studies done in the past they're quite illuminating. "Want" is wanting ice cream, take it or leave it. "Need" is something that, at some level, is a requirement, whether to keep us alive, or to keep us sane.

End of the day, there's nothing wrong with a man needing a woman, or vice versa (or any gender label combination you wish). There's a lot wrong with desperation and co-dependency, but then, that's not the same thing (regardless of what pop psychologists tell us).

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   14:36:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: SonOfLiberty (#31)

If you ever get a chance to read any of the social isolation primate studies done in the past they're quite illuminating. "Want" is wanting ice cream, take it or leave it. "Need" is something that, at some level, is a requirement, whether to keep us alive, or to keep us sane.

Primates or humans?

Relationships are take it or leave it as well, not unlike ice cream. However, I disagree that giving a stranger a nod constitutes a relationship. That's an acquintance.

I'll stick to my want over need to theory, SOL. You haven't convinced me. : ) In fact, I could make an equally cogent argument that people cause insanity, not lack of people.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   15:07:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: abraxas (#32)

Primates for the clinical studies. Humans, fortunately, are primates.

However, I disagree that giving a stranger a nod constitutes a relationship. That's an acquintance.

It's a social relationship. It is. Casual, would be the term for it. Having an acquaintence means you have a non-serious, non-deep relationship with somebody.

You're thinking in Oprah terms. Meaning, if it's not "romantic" or "family", it must not be a relationship. That's 1970's+ jargon. Relationships can be shallow, deep or something in between. It doesn't mean you love or like or even care for somebody, it just means you have some sort of social interaction with them. You have relationships with your co-workers (hence, a working relationship) and relationships with your local grocer (hence, professional relationships or civic relationships).

I'll stick to my want over need to theory, SOL. You haven't convinced me.

Strange, because we agree on pretty much everything but the term "need". I'm simply using the long standing and understood use of "need", as opposed to the new age/psychiatric version of the word. Fair enough though.

In fact, I could make an equally cogent argument that people cause insanity, not lack of people.

People can make you crazy, clearly. But then, so does a lack of relationships.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   15:13:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: SonOfLiberty (#33)

Primates for the clinical studies. Humans, fortunately, are primates.

lol......you know that I was asking if the social isolation experiments were with apes or humans. But, for some reason, you still didn't give me an answer.

No, I think you are thinking more in Oprah terms than I am. You keep btinging Oprah into the discussion, not me.

Yes, I continue to have many reservations regarding this term "need" in relation to human beings. Personally, I would much rather have a person in my life who WANTS to be with me, rather than one who NEEDS to be with me--that goes for friends and love interests. And acquintances don't even qualify for this sort of consideration. In fact, it's a little Oprahesque to view such casual encounters as relationships, IMHO.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   15:35:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: abraxas (#34)

lol......you know that I was asking if the social isolation experiments were with apes or humans.

Actually, no I didn't know that. It was with primates, apes and monkeys, at least the ones I recall reading. If I'm not mistaken (and I'll need to go review this) there have been human isolation studies as well, but I'll need to find my sources on those. They never turn out well for the subject.

No, I think you are thinking more in Oprah terms than I am.

No, not really. I can't recall the "you shouldn't need a relationship, you should want one" until the last decade or so. Before that, it was common to tell a person you love "I love you, I need you...". In fact, these words were featured in music more than once (Elvis, for example). The "you shouldn't need a woman/man" is a new invention, strictly an invented concept of the New Age.

In fact, it's a little Oprahesque to view such casual encounters as relationships, IMHO.

Then how did "working relationship" (co-workers) come into modern parlance? It's a rather aged term we all seemed to accept, once upon a time. Or "business relationship" (where you have an established relationship with a vendor, for example). Or "casual relationship", meaning somebody you just said "hi" to once in a while? Relationship, in the sense of a social relationship, means simply a connection, association, or involvement. And hey, we need them, or we develop some serious problems mentally. Most social animals, to my knowledge, have the same requirements. Hell, you have to even keep more than one hermit crab, or they die quickly(they're social).

In any event, interesting conversation. Take'er easy.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-15   15:47:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: SonOfLiberty (#35)

No, not really. I can't recall the "you shouldn't need a relationship, you should want one" until the last decade or so. Before that, it was common to tell a person you love "I love you, I need you...". In fact, these words were featured in music more than once (Elvis, for example). The "you shouldn't need a woman/man" is a new invention, strictly an invented concept of the New Age.

I'm not basing my theory on popular music or culture, SOL.

I agree that we DO have relationships with the people we work with. But, I disagree that we have relationships with the guy I give five bucks to at the exterior car wash or the guy I give a dollar to at the quicky mart or the guy who gives me a nod at the grocery store.

That's not true about hermit crabs, I had one live alone just fine. Ditto for bearded dragons that I initially bought as a pair, but one died shorly after, the other live ten years without another one.

No, this isn't a "New Age" concept.......it's more old age. As I stated before we are now in a very populated word but that hasn't always been so. People in general, spent much more time in isolation in the past and I would argue that they were actually better off for having such experiences. They were more independent and self sufficient.

Newton was an isolationist BY CHOICE.......and thank goodness that he opted for this in his life for we have benefited greatly. Ditto for Tesla, who could have had all sorts of relationships but felt that they detracted from his concentration and scientific persuits. Did they NEED a woman?

Elvis also felt that he NEEDED copius amounts of drugs......or was that want?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-15   16:14:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: abraxas (#36)

I'm not basing my theory on popular music or culture, SOL.

You don't have to. Just noting that the notion of "I love you, I need you..." was not a "dirty" concept until the last decade or two. Prior to that, there is a long historical record of "I need you" being a *good* thing.

Newton...Tesla...

Newton had lots of rather close interpersonal relationships (in fact, there's rumor that he may have had romantic trysts with some...um...lads). Tesla had a very close relationship with Mark Twain/Samuel Clemens, and he redirected his sexual energies into his creativity (he even said as much openly). This was gone over earlier in the conversation, redirecting an impulse doesn't mean you eliminate the impulse.

That's not true about hermit crabs, I had one live alone just fine

That's torture for him, actually. They are a very social crab (which, honestly, I never knew until we got them).

Ditto for bearded dragons that I initially bought as a pair, but one died shorly after, the other live ten years without another one.

Bearded dragons are isolationist by nature, they are not a social creature, so that stands to reason. In fact, they tend to dislike being around their own kind except to mate, they're very solitary. Sometimes, if caged together, they'll rip each others limbs off in fights. If you put a significantly smaller one in with a larger one, the larger will kill and eat the smaller one. They kind of don't like their own kind much. I have one too. :)

No, this isn't a "New Age" concept.......it's more old age.

Yes, it is.

I think the root of the problem here is that you think I'm saying that "we need constant close contact". Not the case. But we do need some level of social interaction. You can quite easily be independent, after a fashion, but you'll never be totally alone (nor would anybody ever want to be I'd think). If you have no other human mind to relate to (even in literature), you'll go bonkers.

But, I disagree that we have relationships with the guy I give five bucks to at the exterior car wash

Business relationship.

or the guy I give a dollar to at the quicky mart or the guy who gives me a nod at the grocery store.

Casual relationship.

Relationship does not mean you sit and chat with the fellow and tell him about your kids or parents. It means you have a level of interaction with that person.

Elvis also felt that he NEEDED copius amounts of drugs......or was that want?

Drug addictions are a need, in a sense. Some of them (though, honestly, I think most "addiction" cases folks talk about are really cases of the person who is "addicted" being an asshole who doesn't want to change, lol).

The need for social interactions/relationships, on the other hand, are a built in need for psychological health (not pop psychology, I mean so you don't go really insane). There's just no getting around it. Without any people around for long extended periods of time, and without any way to form any other kinds of social bonds (pets), you'll start naming your baseball Fred and singing the Battle Hymn Of The Republic to it.

"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC

SonOfLiberty  posted on  2010-07-16   9:11:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: SonOfLiberty (#37)

"I love you, I need you..." was not a "dirty" concept until the last decade or two.

SOL, I don't think the concept is dirty.....just not true. Do you think those songs apply to ALL people?

Tesla was an acquintance with Mark Twain. He liked him but had a very hard time trusting people after getting screwed over as many times as he had been in his life. He socialized to get funding for his experiements, but had little use of society--with good reason as few could understand him, many made outlandish statements about his mental health and his sexuality.

SOL, you are posing a very liberal argument here with druggies NEEDING the drugs just as you are making the case that every person who crosses your path has a relationship with you. : ) This only serves to highlight the distinction I am making between NEED and WANT. The druggies WANT the drugs, but they do not NEED them.

Relationship does mean that you have an exchange beyond simple interaction and beyond acquintance. This is why we have these two terms to make this distinction. An acquintance does not a relationship make.

Your premise is faulty on many levels. For one, you are claiming that people go crazy without interaction without defining the time component of your hypothesis. Many brilliant people spend copious amounts of time alone in order to give their undivided attention to what they desire to achieve--I've already given you many examples. Oh, yes, but these people are "mad scientists" because YOU can't fathom their DESIRE for isolation. People can be very much like the animal examples you offer wherein isolation is desired for a variety of reasons. The outside world calls them "crazy" or speculates that they must be gay or something must be wrong with them because they can't accept that people whoud make that CHOICE, a CHOICE so different from what they would make.

A CHOICE or a DESIRE isn't a NEED it is a WANT, which is my point here. Why is WANT such a dirty "new age" concept in your line of thinking? How do anti social people fit into your hypothesis? How do hermits fit into your hypothesis? These are example of folks WHO want to be rid of society, some odd quirk within the social animal structure.

My bearded dragons seemed to like each other fine. I don't think Shiela killed Black Beard in order to have the tank to herself although she did fine without him around. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-16   11:51:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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