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Title: Ron Paul: Useful dupe, or sincere patriot who knows he can't win? Will you donate $$?
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Published: Jul 16, 2010
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Post Date: 2010-07-16 14:33:16 by Artisan
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Views: 641
Comments: 78
Sorry if daring to broach this subject offends any potential Paul cultists out there. Many people respect Dr. Paul, for his principles and long-standing track record. But the way he ended his 08 campaign, along with the 'Trotsky memo' have some questioning the validity of his run. Is it worth it to jump on the Paul 2012 bandwagon knowing that Paul himself recently told CNN that he's considering running, but knows he will never be president? Would you support Dr. Paul a second time, and would you donate money?
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#1. To: Artisan (#0)
Vote? Yes. Financial contribution? NO.
__________________________________________________________ Personally, I like Ron Paul, and as a physician I like many of his positions. Fact of the matter is the Constitution has done virtually nothing to restrain the growth of government, it is an abject failure. The Constitution replaced The Articles of Confederation, literally a Coup d'etat by the banking elites and monied interests of the time. However, Dr. Paul is a far better choice than the power hungry murderous thieves and POS that currently occupy most Federal, State and Local elected positions, and is a move in a more positive direction than we are currently headed. Yes, I gave money to the Paul campaign last election cycle, the maximum amount allowed, and would likely do it again if the current murderous, torturing, thieving, war mongering, lying, cheating POS would be tossed to the curb. Peace.
I think we should ask Cyni for his opinion on this. :^)
Seriously though, if Thomas Jefferson came back from the grave and ran for pres, we here could find reasons not to vote for him either, for a comment made here and there. There's no doubt that his human nature is no match for the legend he's become. I'd say if you're not going to vote for Ron Paul, then don't bother voting for anyone because there's not going to be any more constitutionally grounded candidate than RP.
I dont know why anyone would support someone that doesn't want the job nearly as much as those he suckered into supporting him the first time. If he wants to lead, then lead. Or else follow, or else GTF out of the way. .
Click for Privacy and Preparedness files Live free or Agreed. The modern internet "liberty movement" is dead set on ensuring failure, even if they have to work overtime to achieve it. I really don't understand that mindset, wanting to live in a dystopia would seem the last thing I'd ever want. But hey, different strokes for different folks.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
for a candidate to declare that he WILL NEVER WIN even if he does run, how is that anything but 'ensuring defeat'? calling a spade a spade is living in reality, not somehow undermining a guy who throws in the towel before the battle even begins.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 I don't cast my vote based upon whether or not someone can win or not. I cast it based upon whether or not I agree with their political philosophy. If Dr. Paul runs for president again then unless someone else with a philosophy similar to his with a track record I can verify steps up to the plate I will contribute financially to his campaign and cast my vote for him. If this makes me a "Paul cultist" in the eyes of some, then so be it.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
So then don't vote for him. Real easy.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
PING!! Ditto F.A. Hayek Fan's sentiments for me.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I couldn't agree with you more. Intelligent voting! That is why I have only voted for presidential candidate only 4 times since 1964. Barry Goldwater in 1964, Ronald Reagan his first term in 1980, Pat Buchanan in 2000, and I wrote in Ron Pauls name in 2008 as well as donating to his campaign. So far there isn't anyone worthy of my vote on the horizon. I would cast a vote for Jim Traficant if he were running which he isn't.
Not hardly. At the very least Paul is a useful dupe. Once bitten, I for one will not donate again. His ethics went down the drain when he allowed his son to use his donor lists. There is NO ONE in sight that warrants a dime of money or support.
Any man who allows himself to be laughed off the debate stage by McCain and Giuliani, and now enters a race with all the fire of a wet mop, deserves no support. The question implied in the opening statement is being ignored; WHY is he doing this? Since we already have enough losers, the question is quite legitimate.
Amen... HE SERVES A USEFUL PURPOSE AND TOO MANY PEOPLE HERE REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT. First time around a black man takes in a cool billion dollars and becomes president???? By happenstance???? Not hardly. Paul was most helpful.
His first, and biggest mistake, was not IMMEDIATELY challenging the NH vote count. There were so many anecdotal stories of fraud it was pathetic. (And prophetic.) The black box machines could elect Turtle's pug as the potus.
If you have someone else better in mind I'm all ears. Otherwise Paul will get my vote. At least in the primaries. If he doesn't win the RP nomination then I'll vote LP or CP in the general election.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
Sir Lod... Paul said all the right things, as if by script, all the time, every time. In reflection, we must admit there never was any fire attached to his words, not one iota. It was as if he was day dreaming his way thru a one act farce. Now he needs to be gone, for good. In his Trotsky memo I believe he pledged his undying love for the republican party. Americans need no party loyalists to carry a banner.
Amen... HE SERVES A USEFUL PURPOSE AND TOO MANY PEOPLE HERE REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT. First time around a black man takes in a cool billion dollars and becomes president???? By happenstance???? Not hardly. Paul was most helpful. By the time Obama became an issue, Paul was out of the picture, so your conspiracy theory doesn't hold water.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
by the term 'Paul cultist' i did not mean supporters of Paul. I meant someone who feels part of a group so strongly that they shun any discerning discussion or valid criticism of the man or what he does. I'm sure most of us here have been supporters of him for years, & are not political novices. Anytime someone cowers from open discussion in blind defense of a guy, even Paul, (or alex jones, etc) it approaches the apt cultist' title.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 He was out of the picture for, get this, the f**king unification of the Republican party behind Juan McCain. Who to vote for? How about someone who thinks they can win, and acts the part? Me, I'd vote for Turtle's pug before I give this Republican firebrand support.
I believe Dr. Paul has made a ton of mistakes and he deserves whatever criticism he gets. However, I have been reading his writings for more than 20 years now and I don't buy the CT bullshit that he's some kind of RP plant. It's far more likely a combination of his naivety and bad advice from his political advisers, most of whom were amateurs and not part of the DC system.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
lol.......you sound so disgusted. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
That's your prerogative.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
:P
bingo!
it is NOT that I don't like RP it is NOT that I don't like the things he believes in he can't win and I think no one here understands the POWER of the Rothschilds
And unification behind Romney or Guiliani or any other the other statist scumbags would have been better?
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
So are you a Palin or Obama voter.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
bingo! Oh no, the Constitution has not failed.......the people have. It is convenient to blame the document, but the blame falls upon the backs of we the people. An apathetic nation gets the corrupt, bloviated government it deserves.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I'm feeling lots of love for the pug here. I can see him in the Oval Office just happily spinning his ass in circles, doing nothing. My dream potus.
I was thinking more along the lines of dragging his ass across the carpet. LOL!
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
conspiracy theory??/ I do not see any words concerning conspiracy theory. Is it to difficult to understand, Paul himself told us..I am a loyal republican.. That means he plays ON THE TEAM.
fair enough. i agree that he is a good man with correct ideals & great voting record.i also read paul's material when i was a kid, my dad got it in the mail. i think his weakness is that he's too wimpy even for most of his supporters. but like you said- we work with what we got.
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 And as long as it paid no attention to Turtle it would be better than what we have now.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. He is definitely too mild mannered. I remember watching a video of him arguing with a talk show host back in the 70's (can't remember his name but it's that guy who smoked like a chimney and screamed a lot) but that might have been due to the host. Maybe it's come with age.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
I can see him in the Oval Office just happily spinning his ass in circles, doing nothing. My dream potus. LOL! I hereby nominate this for post of the day.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. neither
...First time around a black man takes in a cool billion dollars and becomes president???? By happenstance???? Not hardly. If it look like a duck.....
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
Oh. You appeared to be so concerned about voting for someone who could win that I naturally thought you would be voting for one of the main party candidates. My mistake.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
My Basset Hound left a big present in the back yard for me to pick up and I think THAT would be better than what we have now.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
It would be hard to think of anything that wouldn't be better than the Kenyan.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. that was morton downey jr & he was running for prez as libertarian in 88. the guardian angels were guests too, calling paul a liberal pothead. paul jumped up and screamed AT LEAST I WOULDN'T BE DEALING IN DRUGS LIKE GEORGE BUSH & THE CIA, RIGHT BO GRITZ!!? (gritz was in the audience). Classic clip!
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 Yeah that's his name! Thanks. His name was at the tip of my tongue. Was it in '88? I thought it was earlier than that. Anyway, yeah that was a great clip. He was no wimp that day that's for sure. I wish he would have brought some of that passion with him on his run for the 2008 presidency. I gotta run for a while. It's thundering and lightening and I have to turn off the 'puter.
"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976 Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi
Joe Biden.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I am not one of those people that see a conspiracy under every bed, in every closet nor in what other people write.
yeah, although the clip is dated & seems '70-ish' (heck it is dated, it was 22 yes ago! ) Paul was 53, & was on as a guest because he was the libertarian prez. candidate for legalizing drugs. very entertaining. think its still on youtube
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 While it is POSSIBLE that Biden MIGHT be worse it is doubtful. Not that I like Biden, I have no use for him. But in my opinion, Tarball is absolutely the worst Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I'd have to hear his actual comment. And was it a formal *Declaration* or simply a comment about his chances of winning? And there's no shortage of 4umers here who believe the same thing about any constitutionally grounded candidate saying such would not be ALLOWED to win. So is the objection here that he's being honest and not blowing hot air like a standard politician? Ron Paul's track record is one of candidness, and I'd venture this is just one more example.
In my lifetime, back to and including FDR, Obumski is the first president that I feel confident is NOT the president, not even a figure head, perhaps not even a puppet. He is a bought and paid for political whore that does not realize his owners are preparing him for greater and better things.
Worst I've ever seen, that's for sure. Nixon was a choirboy compared to Tarball.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. The Nixon family supported Tarball.
He certainly doesn't seem to have enough fight in him to win a national election. So if that's the case, why send him money? I would vote for him if there was no better choice, and more than likely there won't be, but it's not going to accomplish much if he doesn't have the desire to win.
LBJ has done multi-generational damage due to his Great Society (might as well be called Another Great Leap Forward) and the erasure of practically all immigration quota's as applied to third-world countries. Obummer will have to really get on the stick to outdo LBJ by November 2012.
__________________________________________________________ No surprise there, eh? One part of the one-worlder cabal recognizes its own and supports it. But my point was whether you liked him or didn't like him, Nixon was a saint compared to Obama (and yes, I know that's damning him with faint praise).
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. You don't think the Tarball is through screwing America, do you?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Nixon... If you would like to see a more accurate portrayal of Nixon, an honest one, then you must read "Witness", by Chambers. Never accepted in MSM, school or college. It is all factual.
I'd say sending him money would be beneficial in helping to get the message out. That's not a bad cause. I'm guessing he never said he had no desire to win, but rather that he simply said winning wasn't likely. It's clearly not like if he did win, that he'd decline to take the office. He certainly would, and I think would do so eagerly and readily.
Ok, thanks. I have heard of that book but never read it.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. He's in free-fall mode right now, he's lost his focus. I say he needs a fresh infusion of jewish czars to help him impose more odious laws upon the land.
__________________________________________________________ On whatreallyhappened.com http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/ron-paul-considering-2012-presidential- run-will-he-match-or-exceed-support-he-received-2008#comments full article: Ron Paul considering 2012 presidential run; Will he match or exceed the support he received in 2008?
"if I have all faith so as to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." 1 Cor 12:31—13:13 I have heard this argument before, it goes something like this, if only the right people were in power, if only we elected the right people the Constitution would provide for the kind of Nation we seek. It is erroneus and false. One can not make a drone into a worker bee or a queen bee. Drones are drones, and live off the productivity of the worker, as in human society. Until we expel the drones, as the worker bees and the queen do each and every season, all their instruments of thievery, including the Constitution, will never change their nature. It is the same with humans, and the season is nigh.
Nope that isn't the argument at all. The argument is that an apathetic people get the government they deserve. We the people are soft. We the people are woefully undereducated about our Constitution and it shows. People do not understand that the ONLY job of a representative is to navigate the contract between the people and the government, which is our Constitution. The rest is a very expensive dog and pony show.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Surely you must agree there is a conspiracy to destroy this nation and it has been going on for over a hundred years. And surely you must know who is behind it. And surely you must know who the ring leaders from within the country that are behind or a part of it. There is an ulterior motive behind "ALL" things the government does that goes against our "Constitution" and the will of the people, therefore, those ulterior motives surely must be a conspiracy, the conspiracy to destroy this nation. Those of us who understand what is happening must be a conspiracy because we want to return to a real Constitutional government and society. Those in power refute conspiracies when the finger is pointed in their direction, and yet they claim a conspiracy theoy that all who want to be governed by the Constitution are terrorist, a conspiracy as they see it. There are enough conspiracies, real and imagined, to go around!
I have known this for many years. Just as I have known there is but one political party in this county. Being a realist, I accept that there is no way we can undo 9/11, so accept we were screwed royally and work to stop this slide into chaos. We will not succeed because 130 million sheep are perfectly happy with the status quo, war and debt.
I've come to the same conclusion years ago. There are about 280 cities in the U.S. with over 100,000 people. Open your phone book. Look at the list of Gov. agencies. Multiply that by 100,000. Try to add the numerous groups/agencies/bureaucracies,military that we pay for to it. We could turn of the whole congress. The supreme court. We could eliminate the entire flock of lobbyist. It wouldn't change a frackin thing. The system has been corrupted from start to finish. I have said this for years, and I still say it. John Ross's Unintended Consequences is the only solution I've seen that may, just may, turn the tables. There is one other option I've never seen explored. Remove every one of the culprits first born.
People do not understand that the ONLY job of a representative is to navigate the contract between the people and the government, which is our Constitution I have heard the apathy argument before and it also is false. What in fact is happening is that people see no return on the time and energy they 'invest' in politics. They are wise and correct, and as Étienne de La Boétie pointed out in his Treatise on Involuntary Servitude, withdrawing consent, however small, will bring a corrupt and evil government like we have to a standstill. A modern example of this is the Bush stolen election of 2004. The Supreme Court intervened and decided the election. It was completley illegal, immoral and unconstitutional. The vote of the people mattered not, and all the time and energy of people was a complete and utter waste. Lysander Spooner showed in his Constitution of No Authority that the Constitution is not a contract in any legal sense of the word. It is more like a contract on the people, a tool box of sorts that the elites and monied interest use to loot and rob the lives and property of the people. Here is a pretty good video of Lysander Spooner's Constitution of No Authority. Drones will be drones, and politicians will be and have always be theiving, lying, murderous blood suckers, until one of two things happen. Either the people will rise up and violently overthrow or expel the 'political drones', or withdraw their consent and watch the beast starve and collapse, as de La Boétie pointed out and this is the strategy that I recommnend. I do believe if the Constitution were followed it would be a move in a better direction than what we have today and appreciate those who advocate that position. Peace.
No argument here. Thanks for mentioning John Ross, I had not heard of him and certaily his arguments are valid. Peace.
Étienne de La Boétie pointed out in his Treatise on Involuntary Servitude, withdrawing consent, however small, will bring a corrupt and evil government like we have to a standstill. That's fine, just don't bitch about the current state of affairs. To do nothing, is to allow tyranny. Balony. Most are NOT involved and there is no standstill--only a very consistent march to tyranny and debt peonage with more crapping on our civil liberties, more nanny state and more corruption. Why not? There is little if any objection from the people. Nobody stood up and protested Bush stealing an election--nobody took to the streets. The peoples' stand against oppression was at best, PATHETIC. But, of course, they are so "wise and correct", stealing elections doesn't really merit any "time or energy" now does it? Sheesh, Lysander_Spooner--you can't have it both ways. You can't have an apathetic people who aren't involved and are too "wise and correct" to give a shit AND not have any part in the blame for the current state of affairs. An apathetic people doesn't "violently overthrow" a dog catcher, let alone the "political drones' you speak of.....what part of that are you failing to grasp? They will be slaves in their own nation, with no rights and barely a feeble wimper to lament that they should have gotten off their asses and done SOMETHING years or decades ago--perhaps when GW Bush stole an election or when he crapped on habeas corpus or when Obama decided he could murder any ol' person for the "good" of the nation. Opportunities abound....but the "wise and correct" people are simply too busy to take any relevant role in opposition to their own oppression.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
i agree and, damn, that was one fantastic book. i was on the edge of my bed and practically hyperventilenting the whole time i was reading it.
I appreciate your passion. Sometimes the hardest and most effective thing to do is nothing. A skinny brown guy in tidy whitties brought down the British Empire and libertated India, his name of course was Ghandi. It was done by peaceful non- cooperation. I am not in favor of violent overthrow. I do agree that many apathetic people are not being apathetic as a political strategty, they likey just don't give a damn, but the outcome is the same, withdrawal of consent. There is a tipping point when enough non-apathetic people who understand the strategy of withdrawal of consent that the jig will be up for the Tyrants. I feel that day may be soon. This article today on FF, http://freedom4um.com/cgi- bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=120781, gives up encouragement. I think the trend is in this direction and will continue to be so.
As you're aware, I'm 100% behind non-consent (and say so in other threads). That said, when we engage in non-consent, I suspect that we need to do so more "loudly". Not just refrain from filling out the form, but letting everybody in the range of our voice know we're not filling out the form, and why. Ghandi didn't just sit down and not consent. He evangelized, in a sense. Thoreau didn't just go live in the woods, or not pay a tax, he wrote about it and passed it around to as many as would read his words. 'Bout time we started down that path too.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
FWIW, I think a case can be made for supporting Paul even though he won't win. His voice is being heard, evidenced from the last election, where he became so prominent and gathered so many "converts" to liberty, that major MSM outlets had to resort to trashing him. That's why I sent him some cash last cycle, just to get the message out. The results are with us today, the huge anti-government movement, still growing. Some value in that.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Yes, but Ghandi did so much more than nothing in his peaceful way. For instance, Ghandi was never mute about his withdrawal of consent. He didn't work alone, but rather garnered the support of the masses. His non-cooperation was pointed and skillful and very public, not like this apathy behind closed doors with a bag of Bon Bons and the TV in the US. What did Ghandi say? Be the change you want to see in this world......well, let's just say I await with open arms any American who demonstrates a fraction of the discipline and political savvy that Ghandi had. You see, I tend to completely disagree that we are anywhere near a tipping point of people who understand.......I'd love that to be so, but the ignorance on the ground says that's not the case. Thanks for the article of encouragement. I'll read and report on it there. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
That's essentially what I said as well. Though, I am officially not going to comply, fill out forms, answer questions or pay fines in regards to the nazicare law. I suspect that very soon, other items are going to be on that "no consent" list as well. My downfall is that I'm not very good at evangelizing or the whole "political savvy" aspect. Will need to learn more about that to be frank.
"The more artificial taboos and restrictions there are in the world, the more the people are impoverished.... The more that laws and regulations are given prominence, the more thieves and robbers there will be." - Lao Tzu, 6th century BC
Yes, totally agree. The pen and the pulpit are mightier than the sword my friend. Peace.
Totally agree, yes we need to have more to state publicly "The Emporer has no clothes", shout it from rooftops if that is what it takes. We must stay positive and show that we are the happy future, a future of freedom and peace, rather than hatred,death, destruction and tyrany that our so-called leaders have been so hell bent on taking us down.
I believe you can be the frank you want to be SOL. : ) Seriously, imagine what we could do with say just FIVE of the hours per week that people waste with the boob tube.......think of what we could do with that time and energy in regards to mobilizing and getting something done. I don't agree with your perceived downfall. You posts are articulate and quite savvy, IMHO.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
would you donate money?
#2. To: Artisan (#0)
Obama is the miscegenated bastard of a white communist whore. True story.
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#3. To: Artisan (#0)
#4. To: Artisan, cynicom (#0)
#5. To: Artisan (#0)
#6. To: Artisan (#0)
CHIMPOUT!
die kill ~~ Me
God is a separatist. That's good enough for me.
#7. To: Pinguinite (#5)
#8. To: SonOfLiberty, pinguinite, psusa (#7)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#9. To: Artisan (#0)
#10. To: Artisan (#8)
for a candidate to declare that he WILL NEVER WIN even if he does run, how is that anything but 'ensuring defeat'? calling a spade a spade is living in reality, not somehow undermining a guy who throws in the towel before the battle even begins.
#11. To: F.A. Hayek Fan, all (#9)
#12. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#9)
I don't cast my vote based upon whether or not someone can win or not. I cast it based upon whether or not I agree with their political philosophy. If Dr. Paul runs for president again then unless someone else with a philosophy similar to his with a track record I can verify steps up to the plate I will contribute financially to his campaign and cast my vote for him. If this makes me a "Paul cultist" in the eyes of some, then so be it.
#13. To: Artisan (#0)
Is it worth it to jump on the Paul 2012 bandwagon knowing that
#14. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#10)
So then don't vote for him. Real easy.
#15. To: Disgusted (#14)
(Edited)
now enters a race with all the fire of a wet mop, deserves no support.
#16. To: Artisan, RP friends, 4 (#8)
#17. To: Disgusted (#14)
Any man who allows himself to be laughed off the debate stage by McCain and Giuliani, and now enters a race with all the fire of a wet mop, deserves no support. The question implied in the opening statement is being ignored; WHY is he doing this? Since we already have enough losers, the question is quite legitimate.
#18. To: Lod (#16)
#19. To: Cynicom (#15)
now enters a race with all the fire of a wet mop, deserves no support.
#20. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#9)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#21. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#19)
By the time Obama became an issue, Paul was out of the picture, so your conspiracy theory doesn't hold water.
#22. To: Artisan (#20)
by the term 'Paul cultist' i did not mean supporters of Paul. I meant someone who feels part of a group so strongly that they shun any discerning discussion or valid criticism of the man or what he does. I'm sure most of us here have been supporters of him for years, & are not political novices. Anytime someone cowers from open discussion in blind defense of a guy, even Paul, (or alex jones, etc) it approaches the apt cultist' title.
#23. To: Disgusted (#21)
Me, I'd vote for Turtle's pug before I give this Republican firebrand support.
#24. To: Disgusted (#21)
He was out of the picture for, get this, the f**king unification of the Republican party behind Juan McCain. Who to vote for? How about someone who thinks they can win, and acts the part? Me, I'd vote for Turtle's pug before I give this Republican firebrand support.
#25. To: abraxas (#23)
#26. To: Lysander_Spooner (#3)
Fact of the matter is the Constitution has done virtually nothing to restrain the growth of government, it is an abject failure. The Constitution replaced The Articles of Confederation, literally a Coup d'etat by the banking elites and monied interests of the time.
#27. To: Artisan, All (#0)
#28. To: Disgusted (#21)
He was out of the picture for, get this, the f**king unification of the Republican party behind Juan McCain. Who to vote for? How about someone who thinks they can win, and acts the part? Me, I'd vote for Turtle's pug before I give this Republican firebrand support.
#29. To: Itistoolate (#27)
he can't win
#30. To: christine, Lysander_Spooner (#26)
Fact of the matter is the Constitution has done virtually nothing to restrain the growth of government, it is an abject failure.
#31. To: Disgusted, Turtle's pug, 4 (#25)
#32. To: Lod (#31)
I can see him in the Oval Office just happily spinning his ass in circles, doing nothing.
#33. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#19)
By the time Obama became an issue, Paul was out of the picture, so your conspiracy theory doesn't hold water.
#34. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#22)
he deserves whatever criticism he gets
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#35. To: Lod, Turtle (#16)
The black box machines could elect Turtle's pug as the potus.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#36. To: Artisan (#34)
fair enough. i agree that he is a good man with correct ideals & great voting record.i also read paul's material when i was a kid, my dad got it in the mail. i think his weakness is that he's too wimpy even for most of his supporters. but like you said- we work with what we got.
#37. To: Lod, post of the day (#31)
I'm feeling lots of love for the pug here.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#38. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#29)
#39. To: Cynicom (#33)
I do not see any words concerning conspiracy theory....
#40. To: Itistoolate (#38)
(Edited)
neither
#41. To: James Deffenbach (#35)
And as long as it paid no attention to Turtle it would be better than what we have now.
#42. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#41)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#43. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#36)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#44. To: Artisan (#43)
(Edited)
that was morton downey jr & he was running for prez as libertarian in 88. the guardian angels were guests too, calling paul a liberal pothead. paul jumped up and screamed AT LEAST I WOULDN'T BE DEALING IN DRUGS LIKE GEORGE BUSH & THE CIA, RIGHT BO GRITZ!!? (gritz was in the audience). Classic clip!
#45. To: James Deffenbach, F.A. Hayek Fan (#42)
It would be hard to think of anything that wouldn't be better than the Kenyan.
#46. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#39)
#47. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#44)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#48. To: abraxas (#45)
Joe Biden.
president person who has ever been the acting president. They seem to get worse every (s)election.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#49. To: Artisan (#8)
for a candidate to declare that he WILL NEVER WIN even if he does run,
#50. To: James Deffenbach (#48)
#51. To: Cynicom (#50)
In my lifetime, back to and including FDR, Obumski is the first president that I feel confident is NOT the president, not even a figure head, perhaps not even a puppet.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#52. To: James Deffenbach (#51)
#53. To: Artisan (#0)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#54. To: James Deffenbach, Cynicom (#51)
Obama is the miscegenated bastard of a white communist whore. True story.
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#55. To: Cynicom (#52)
The Nixon family supported Tarball.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#56. To: X-15 (#54)
Obummer will have to really get on the stick to outdo LBJ by November 2012.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#57. To: James Deffenbach (#55)
No surprise there, eh? One part of the one-worlder cabal recognizes its own and supports it. But my point was whether you liked him or didn't like him, Nixon was a saint compared to Obama (and yes, I know that's damning him with faint praise).
#58. To: FormerLurker (#53)
So if that's the case, why send him money?
but it's not going to accomplish much if he doesn't have the desire to win.
#59. To: Cynicom (#57)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#60. To: James Deffenbach (#56)
You don't think the Tarball is through screwing America, do you?
Obama is the miscegenated bastard of a white communist whore. True story.
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941
#61. To: All, christine (#0)
"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html
#62. To: abraxas, Christine (#30)
Oh no, the Constitution has not failed.......the people have. It is convenient to blame the document, but the blame falls upon the backs of we the people.
#63. To: Lysander_Spooner (#62)
I have heard this argument before, it goes something like this, if only the right people were in power, if only we elected the right people the Constitution would provide for the kind of Nation we seek. It is erroneus and false.
#64. To: Cynicom (#46)
(Edited)
I am not one of those people that see a conspiracy under every bed, in every closet nor in what other people write.
#65. To: LACUMO (#64)
Surely you must agree there is a conspiracy to destroy this nation and it has been going on for over a hundred years.
#66. To: Lysander_Spooner (#62)
I have heard this argument before, it goes something like this, if only the right people were in power, if only we elected the right people the Constitution would provide for the kind of Nation we seek. It is erroneus and false.
#67. To: abraxas, Christine (#63)
The argument is that an apathetic people get the government they deserve.
#68. To: Ragin1 (#66)
#69. To: Lysander_Spooner (#67)
What in fact is happening is that people see no return on the time and energy they 'invest' in politics.
#70. To: Ragin1 (#66)
John Ross's Unintended Consequences is the only solution I've seen that may, just may, turn the tables.
#71. To: abraxas (#69)
#72. To: Lysander_Spooner (#71)
#73. To: Lysander_Spooner (#71)
#74. To: Lysander_Spooner (#71)
A skinny brown guy in tidy whitties brought down the British Empire and libertated India
#75. To: abraxas (#74)
#76. To: SonOfLiberty (#72)
#77. To: abraxas (#74)
Yes, but Ghandi did so much more than nothing in his peaceful way. Ghandi was never mute about his withdrawal of consent. He didn't work alone, but rather garnered the support of the masses. His non-cooperation was pointed and skillful and very public. Be the change you want to see in this world......well, let's just say I await with open arms any American who demonstrates a fraction of the discipline and political savvy that Ghandi had.
#78. To: SonOfLiberty (#75)
My downfall is that I'm not very good at evangelizing or the whole "political savvy" aspect. Will need to learn more about that to be frank.
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