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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source: BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
Ping List: *4um PSY-OP Club*     Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*
Keywords: None
Views: 23535
Comments: 1209

An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks.

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition".

The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell.

Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York.

After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001.

This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking").

Resistance to collapse

Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures.

Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts.

"The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website.

Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse.

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

'Fair assumption'

The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

"One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen.

The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings.

The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center.

This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers.

Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble.

Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse.

Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design. Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 1007.

#237. To: buckeroo (#0)

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

Actually a free fall from the 110th floor would have taken 9.22 seconds.

Wow, the towers fell FASTER than free falling objects, like being sucked into a huge vacuum cleaner.

Amazing.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   7:59:34 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: FormerLurker (#237)

Actually a free fall from the 110th floor would have taken 9.22 seconds.

Show me your calculation and/or source material.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   12:13:29 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: buckeroo (#246)

Show me your calculation and/or source material.

Oh man, are you REALLY that stupid? Besides it being stated in virtually every report that exists in terms of free fall comparisons, here's the basic physics, which you apparently never learned in school.

You can look up the formula, it's t = SQRT(2d/g)

t = time, d = distance, g = acceleration due to gravity (32.2 feet per second/second)

The roof heights of the WTC towers were 1368 ft for WTC1, 1362 feet for WTC2.

Acceleration due to gravity is (32.17 feet per second)/second

For WTC1;

t = SQRT(2*1368/32.17) = 9.222 seconds

For WTC2;

t = SQRT(2*1362/32.17) = 9.202 seconds

So there you go buck, try looking things up yourself next time before you make a fool of yourself.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   12:48:24 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#249. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#247)

Why do you think that your height measurement for the "top" of each of the WTC towers is correct?

The towers were hit on the 96th and 81st floors, this means that "free fall" time values were 8.61 and 7.91 seconds respectively because this is the location of initial forces (de plane! de plane!) that buckled the upper floors.

So, you are incorrect by throwing your silly brick off the 110th floor... for a publick demonstration of your astounding assumptions to thwart otherwise serious study and investigation into and about a tragic issue.

This notion of "free fall" has always been used by the TWOOFERS and it is an incorrect assumption for the top of either of the building for the calculation; it is utter nonsense.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   13:15:40 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: buckeroo (#249)

This notion of "free fall" has always been used by the TWOOFERS and it is an incorrect assumption for the top of either of the building for the calculation; it is utter nonsense.

Hahahahhaa.

More back pedaling after they themselves use 9.22 seconds as evidenced on Rosie's video clip.

Where she's obviously parroting something she doesn't understand the least from a CT website.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   15:43:57 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: AGAviator (#252)

More back pedaling after they themselves use 9.22 seconds as evidenced on Rosie's video clip.

Rosie is obviously brighter than you.

You don't judge collapse time for only PART of the building collapsing, you INCLUDE the ENTIRE building from the very top.

Do they give you stupid pills on your job?

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:17:16 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#260. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#256)

You don't judge collapse time for only PART of the building collapsing, you INCLUDE the ENTIRE building from the very top.

You're the people bantering around the "9.22 seconds," "physical impossibility" phrases.

You've had over 8 years and still can't come up with coherent, supportable, verifiable versions of events.

Take another few years to get your stories straight. It's not like anybody will be holding their breaths.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   16:23:54 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#263. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#260)

You're the people bantering around the "9.22 seconds," "physical impossibility" phrases.

Yep, the building SHOULD NOT HAVE collapsed as if it were falling through a vacuum, yet buck's expert "calculated" precisely that.

Do you and he subscribe to "Junk Science Monthly"? Or do you just make this shit up as you go?

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   16:26:19 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#309. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#263) (Edited)

Yep, the building SHOULD NOT HAVE collapsed as if it were falling through a vacuum, yet buck's expert "calculated" precisely that.

There is a very good reason why real world controlled demolition uses so much time, energy, and materials to create conditions getting as close to free fall speeds as possible.

And the consequence of this reason is, if the collapse does not approach free fall speeds, it wasn't done by professional controlled demolition experts.

The reason is, it is known with complete certainty that the force of gravity, if unobstructed by other forces, will pull the building straight down into its own footprint. Where it can be neatly disposed of without damage to anything else not intended to be destroyed.

When the structure is not sufficiently prepared by getting rid of any and all remaining obstacles in the way of straight down vertical collapse, there are additional uncertainties introduced of timing, and rerouting gravitational forces in lines other than straight up and down.

So professional demolitions people take extra time to make sure the fall will be as close to vertical free fall speeds as possible to avoid introducing other variables which may cause unpredicable unmanageable results.

If a building doesn't fall at close to free fall speeds, its fall has not been set up by controlled demolition. Fifeeen seconds vs. nine seconds for a collapse is not even close to free fall speeds. The controlled demolition theory is debunked by actual and observed free fall speeds indicating lack of thorough setup for a building collapse many times larger than the largest recorded CD.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   18:00:50 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#316. To: AGAviator (#309)

If a building doesn't fall at close to free fall speeds, its fall has not been set up by controlled demolition. Fifeeen seconds vs. nine seconds for a collapse is not even close to free fall speeds. The controlled demolition theory is debunked by actual and observed free fall speeds indicating lack of thorough setup for a building collapse many times larger than the largest recorded CD.

Wrong. All the demolition has to do is START the collapse, and with strategically placed charges and computer aided timing, the collapse can take however long they want it to in terms of structural collapse below the initial point of failure.

Thing is, it collapsed WAY too fast for gravity to have done it alone, where a falling body meeting resistance slows down, and the resistance may eventually give way, but it takes some finite amount of time for that to happen.

You're saying it took 6 seconds to smash and break EVERY iota of resistance, since the 9 seconds of falling through a vacuum doesn't correlate with the time it took to overcome the resistance.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:19:08 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#318. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#316)

All the demolition has to do is START the collapse

But a demolition did not start the collapses. The jet crashes did.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:23:11 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#321. To: buckeroo (#318)

But a demolition did not start the collapses. The jet crashes did.

Er, no buckie. The buildings did NOT start to fall down when they were hit. They did NOT start to fall till the precise time they collapsed.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:25:26 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#323. To: FormerLurker (#321)

The buildings did NOT start to fall down when they were hit.

So there was no debris scattered around immediately after the impacts?

They did NOT start to fall till the precise time they collapsed.

Not much time... it was amazing they stood for so long ... but it took time for the central structure to lose stress capability that caused the later crush down phase.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:29:25 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#328. To: buckeroo (#323)

Not much time... it was amazing they stood for so long ... but it took time for the central structure to lose stress capability that caused the later crush down phase.

Not amazing at all, what's amazing is that they fell at all, never mind disintegrate into dust while coming down close to free fall speeds.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   18:38:41 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#331. To: FormerLurker (#328)

what's amazing is that they fell at all

ROTFL .... no building is designed to withstand that kind of impact.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   18:41:25 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#337. To: buckeroo (#331)

no building is designed to withstand that kind of impact.

So what IS your excuse for WT7?

Also the architect for those buildings claims they were indeed made to endure the impact of a 747.

Also, this architect calls BS on much of the story......he has far more experience in this field than you do Buck.

www.youtube.com/watch? v=ssuAMNas1us

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-19   18:54:07 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#341. To: abraxas (#337)

Also the architect for those buildings claims they were indeed made to endure the impact of a 747.

Your story is FALSE or fabricated.

The twins were designed for a 707 as in a FOG with a velocity well below 550mi/hr. (For you, that means much less inertial force as what occurred on 9/11 by the relative impacts caused by terrorist crashes)

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-19   19:02:43 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#346. To: buckeroo (#341)

The twins were designed for a 707 as in a FOG with a velocity well below 550mi/hr. (For you, that means much less inertial force as what occurred on 9/11 by the relative impacts caused by terrorist crashes)

You prove, once again, that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

Statements by Engineers

Engineers who participated in the design of the World Trade Center have stated, since the attack, that the Towers were designed to withstand jetliner collisions. For example, Leslie Robertson, who is featured on many documentaries about the attack, said he "designed it for a (Boeing) 707 to hit it." 2 Statements and documents predating the attack indicate that engineers considered the effects of not only of jetliner impacts, but also of ensuing fires. John Skilling

John Skilling was the head structural engineer for the World Trade Center. In a 1993 interview, Skilling stated that the Towers were designed to withstand the impact and fires resulting from the collision of a large jetliner such as Boeing 707 or Douglas DC-8. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed, ... The building structure would still be there. 3

A white paper released on February 3, 1964 states that the Towers could have withstood impacts of jetliners traveling 600 mph -- a speed greater than the impact speed of either jetliner used on 9/11/01.

911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/design.html

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-19   19:12:50 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#355. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#346)

The twins were designed for a 707 as in a FOG with a velocity well below 550mi/hr. (For you, that means much less inertial force as what occurred on 9/11 by the relative impacts caused by terrorist crashes)

You prove, once again, that you don't know wtf you are talking about.

No, Tw00fster, you don't know WTF you're talking about.

Federal airspace rules prohibit any commercial aircraft from going over 250 KIAS below 10,000 altitude or in "Class B airspace" which surrounds jet airports.

New York City is completely covered by both restrictions.

There would be no reason to design a building able to withstand a crash whose speed presumably never would be allowed by Air Traffic Control in the first place.

Furthermore, structural engineer calculations aren't built in mockups and then tested to make sure the calculations are correct.

Last but not least, there is no record of a design specifying a 500 mph impact. This is hearsay unsupported by any files.

If you have a file supporting 500 mph impact of a 707/767 the produce it.

You lie, you lose.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   19:23:23 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#358. To: AGAviator (#355)

You lie, you lose.

Well then, you've lost long ago if that's true...

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   19:26:13 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#377. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#358)

Well then, you've lost long ago

Loser, here is a partial list of deficiencies you cannot answer with any satisfaction. As time goes on the list will get bigger.

Just as a partial list, you've been provided explicit proofs of the following phenomena and many others.

(1) Two aircraft crashes released gigajoules of kinetic energy into the Twin Tower structures, and within 2 hours both structures collapsed from structural damage,
(2) A fireman is recorded on video saying a third WTC Building, WTC7, will be going down because the building is losing its structural stability from crash damage and uncontrolled fires,
(3) Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,
(4) The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie, as there is no evidence about any cabin door operation of that aircraft either during or before the September 11 flight,
(5) The lauded "peer review publication" of Tw00ferk00ks Steven Jones and Niels Harrit have been shown to be pay-to- publish articles for which $800 was given to a Dhubai publishing mill, with zero other peer reviewed articles
(6) The phrase "pull" as used by the demolition industry means "pull down with cables," and as used by firefighters means "pull back from site,"
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and
(8) It's a physical impossibliity for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint and
(9) The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition

That's just a partial list of the issues about which you and your cotiere have been batted on from one end of the forum to another. There are plenty of others. Your attempts to evade and make things personal is noted, as well as noted as being unsuccessful.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-19   20:07:49 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#431. To: AGAviator (#377)

(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-19   23:40:42 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#450. To: FormerLurker (#431) (Edited)

Glad you posted that so that some of the folks who think Hani Hanjour actually did what they claimed he did will know that he could NOT have done it. They get quiet when you mention that he allegedly took control somewhere in the skies over Ohio and then flew it back to the Pentagon like a stunt pilot. But at the time the plane was hijacked, even if the weather had been perfect and not a cloud in the sky, he would not have had any idea where he was over the landscape. It all looks pretty much the same from heights greater than the top of Mt. Everest. And it is certain that a man who couldn't fly a Cessna could not fly what they claimed hit the Pentagon.

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   8:11:51 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#452. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#450)

And it is certain that a man who couldn't fly a Cessna could not fly what they claimed hit the Pentagon.

The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings.

Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   11:13:44 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#454. To: AGAviator, abraxas, James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#452)

The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings.

Take-offs and landings in a Cessna are relatively easy, with the take-off being such that just about ANYONE could do it. Flying is the relatively easy part. Hanjour couldn't do any of the above even in a Cessna, never mind a heavy multi-engine airliner with all of the complex systems that need to be set correctly.

We are supposed to believe however that he brought the plane down from 35,000 feet to treetop level at 400+ mph, then performed a manuever not any professional pilot could pulloff, and that is to descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph (which is basically performing a landing), defying the laws of aerodynamics (in terms of ground effect), flying straight and level directly into the Pentagon wall.

Yeah right.

Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed.

Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   11:46:56 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#459. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#454) (Edited)

Once again, you mindlessly parrot bull$hit from ko00ksites, try to pass it off as truth, and call anybody who disagrees with your $hitpile a liar and a government agent.

Hanjour actually got a commercial pilot license in 1999 but was unable to get a job. However in 2001 he was showing problems. At the same time he was taking advanced simulator training, so he knew his way around the school enough to put in a spotty performance.

Again, takeoffs and landings are by far the most difficult parts of flight trainings.

Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling.

Furthermore the Pentagon crash itself shows an inexperirenced pilot. The wings were rocking on the final approach, and he went in to the back of the building because the plane got away from him when he tried to hit the Potomac-facing north face of the building which was where the high value target offices including Rumsfeld's were.

The Pentagon hit had little or no destructive value as far as harming the US interests.

Haji Hanjour

Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot certificate in April 1999,
but was unable to get a job as a pilot after he returned to his native Saudi Arabia, and told his family he was heading to the United Arab Emirates to find work. He took an international flight out of New York on April 28, but it is not known where he went. Within two weeks however, bank withdrawals were again made in Arizona, indicating he had returned.

...

However, in January 2001, Arizona JetTech flight school managers reported him to the FAA at least five times because his English was inadequate for the commercial pilot’s certificate he had already obtained. It took him five hours to complete an oral exam meant to last just two hours, said Peggy Chevrette.

Hanjour failed UA English classes with a 0.26 GPA and a JetTech manager said “He could not fly at all.” His FAA certificate had become invalid late in 1999 when he failed to take a mandatory medical examination.

In February, Hanjour began advanced simulator training in Mesa Arizona

Hanjour continued with simulator training because that was where he could practice flying an airplane already airborne and crashing it into a target on a preplanned route, and not have to bother with the other parts of flying including speaking English he could not care less about.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   12:49:06 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#461. To: AGAviator (#459)

Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways.

What don't you understand here?

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   12:56:59 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#485. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#461) (Edited)

He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways.

He didn't fly it straight into the wall.

(1) He hit the wall at an oblique angle which caused the aircraft to not achieve the maximum penatation of a 90 degree impact.

(2) He didn't land on the lawn. As I've repeatedly said ground effect makes an air cushion supporting nap of the earth lift the closer the fuselage and wings get to the ground.

(3) The wings were oscillating right up to final impact, clipping poles and brushing aside construction equipment, and ingesting a part of a luminary into the engine. This is not an under control approach or crash.

(4) The entire secion hit did minimum damage to American interests. The hit was not in a place doing any substantial damage to the US. This is because he was trying to salvage a hit on the building at all instead of hitting a high value section.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   14:09:08 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#520. To: AGAviator (#485)

(1) He hit the wall at an oblique angle which caused the aircraft to not achieve the maximum penatation of a 90 degree impact.

The aircraft flew level, the wings were not banking, and the nose was not up or down. The ANGLE which the aircraft impacted the wall actually caused MORE damage than if it had hit at a 90 degree angle.

(2) He didn't land on the lawn. As I've repeatedly said ground effect makes an air cushion supporting nap of the earth lift the closer the fuselage and wings get to the ground.

Can you repeat that in English? The aircraft didn't PHYSICALLY TOUCH down on the lawn, his wheels weren't down, but IF the wheels were down the aircraft would have landed.

As far as ground effect, it's physically impossible for a large heavy aircraft with relatively low wing-loading, such as a 757, to fly lower than 60 feet off the ground at speeds of 400+ mph. The alleged hijacker whose instuctors said "could not fly at all", allegedly flew the aircraft down to 20 FEET off the Pentagon lawn at a speed of 530 MPH.

The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

(3) The wings were oscillating right up to final impact, clipping poles and brushing aside construction equipment, and ingesting a part of a luminary into the engine. This is not an under control approach or crash.

Post your source. For the aircraft to have impacted as it did, it had to fly with its wings straight and its nose level, especially being there was no damage to the Pentagon lawn. If it had touched the ground with its wings, not only would the wing have broken off and exploded, it would have left obvious skid marks. There were none, and the wing didn't blow up on the lawn.

As far as the lightposts, the officers who first responded to the scene report those lightposts were still standing when they got there, but OTHER light poles were knocked down from the aircraft THEY saw hit the Pentagon, which flew north of the ALLEGED flight path taken according to the official story, which placed it over the poles YOU claim were knocked down.

(4) The entire secion hit did minimum damage to American interests. The hit was not in a place doing any substantial damage to the US. This is because he was trying to salvage a hit on the building at all instead of hitting a high value section.

The aircraft went OUT OF ITS WAY to avoid the high value section of the Pentagon, performing a precision manuever to direct it to the side it actually hit. Pretty thoughtful of that terrorist, wasn't it...

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   20:14:25 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#522. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#520)

The ANGLE which the aircraft impacted the wall actually caused MORE damage than if it had hit at a 90 degree angle.

False. The starboard wing got mostly ground against the building exterior wall because it ran approximately parallel to it, while the port wing got folded back into the fuselage because it was inserted into a tight space with little force available to push the width of that space wider.

IF the wheels were down the aircraft would have landed.

No. In landing especially ground landings the power must be cut down drastically. Had the wheels been lowered the plane would have repeatedly bounced anywhere from a few feet to over 100.

As far as ground effect, it's physically impossible for a large heavy aircraft with relatively low wing-loading, such as a 757, to fly lower than 60 feet off the ground at speeds of 400+ mph. The alleged hijacker whose instuctors said "could not fly at all", allegedly flew the aircraft down to 20 FEET off the Pentagon lawn at a speed of 530 MPH.

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   23:03:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#523. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

Keep those fingernails dug in that Official Fairy Tale about the magic Arabs, magick Jet fuel, and buildings that miraculously fall into their own footprint 3 at time is tough sell since there are so many things about it that are hilarious.

Wanna buy a bridge kid?

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   23:13:56 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#524. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#523) (Edited)

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

Hanjour's 1999 FAA commercial pilot certificate trumps the comments of his flight instructor.

None of you Half Truthers bothered to find out about that because all you are capable of is parroting whatever k00ksites put out.

Clearly Hanjour didn't GAS about the things his flight instructor thought were important. That does not translate into him being unable to do them, just that he couldn't be bothered to do them.

Keep those fingernails dug in that Official Fairy Tale

Here is a partial list, which will get bigger and bigger as I review my postings, of the issues you've been clouted on in this forum.

(1) Two aircraft crashes released gigajoules of kinetic energy into the Twin Tower structures, and within 2 hours both structures collapsed from structural damage,
(2) A fireman is recorded on video saying a third WTC Building, WTC7, will be going down because the building is losing its structural stability from crash damage and uncontrolled fires,
(3) Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,
(4) The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie, as there is no evidence about any cabin door operation of that aircraft either during or before the September 11 flight,
(5) The lauded "peer review publication" of Tw00ferk00ks Steven Jones and Niels Harrit have been shown to be pay-to- publish articles for which $800 was given to a Dhubai publishing mill, with zero other peer reviewed articles
(6) The phrase "pull" as used by the demolition industry means "pull down with cables," and as used by firefighters means "pull back from site,"
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and
(8) It's a physical impossibility for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint
(9) The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition
(10) Claimed molten steel evidence of thermite flowing from 80th floors is actually aluminum and trash cooling on way down and not hot enough to remain melted as it falls a few hundred feet

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   23:18:54 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#526. To: AGAviator (#524)

You love to spam this 4um with the same bullshit, day in and day out, don't you...

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   0:58:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#534. To: FormerLurker (#526)

You love to spam this 4um with the same bullshit

You can't rebut any of it, Half Truther...So you go to Plan B, circlejerk gaybanter with your Twisters.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:45:48 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#546. To: AGAviator (#534)

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997," Chilton said.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:57:58 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#548. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#546)

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale , Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

Wrong pilot license, wrong aircraft, wrong school, wrong dates.

Hanjour got an FAA commercial pilot license, not private pilot license, the license was from a different school than you cite, it was for a passenger aircraft and not a single engine Cessna 172, and it was during a different time period than you mention.

On your attempts to introduce facts you're 0 for 4.

When you claim Hanjour never got any license and someone entered phony information into a computer, 0 for 5.

Anything else you want to fuck up, Half Truther, before I clout you on yet another misrepresented narrative?

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   12:21:53 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#553. To: AGAviator (#548) (Edited)

Hanjour got an FAA commercial pilot license, not private pilot license, the license was from a different school than you cite, it was for a passenger aircraft and not a single engine Cessna 172, and it was during a different time period than you mention.

So I'm supposed to believe YOU, the forum liar, rather than the news reports that reported the facts concerning Hanjour's background, eh?

Post the following information concerning Hanjour's commercial license;

  1. The name of the FAA inspector who signed off on his commercial certificate
  2. The name of his commericial flight school and instructor(s)
  3. Find any information on his multi-engine license or certificate
  4. Find any information on his single-engine license

You see genius, you can't walk into an FAA office and tell them you want a commericial license, have them say ok, here ya go. You HAVE to FIRST take lessons for a SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE license, solo, acquire flight hours, THEN take a test with an FAA examiner, similar to driver's road test, where every aspect of a pilot's abilities are scrutinized, THEN if successful a PRIVATE SINGLE ENGINE license is issued.

THEN, in order to fly MULTI-ENGINE planes, you need to take lessons for that and go through a similar process.

THEN, a pilot would need to fly a simulator and take lessons for IFR flight, ie. flying with instruments only, and be examined for that, and be issued a IFR certificate.

THEN, a pilot would need to log many hours of time IFR, and take lessons for a COMMERCIAL license, THEN be examined by the FAA for that.

So go ahead and provide that information concerning his flight training and FAA certifications.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:35:40 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#564. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#553)

You HAVE to FIRST take lessons for a SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE license, solo, acquire flight hours, THEN take a test with an FAA examiner, similar to driver's road test, where every aspect of a pilot's abilities are scrutinized, THEN if successful a PRIVATE SINGLE ENGINE license is issued.

THEN, in order to fly MULTI-ENGINE planes, you need to take lessons for that and go through a similar process.

THEN, a pilot would need to fly a simulator and take lessons for IFR flight, ie. flying with instruments only, and be examined for that, and be issued a IFR certificate.

THEN, a pilot would need to log many hours of time IFR, and take lessons for a COMMERCIAL license, THEN be examined by the FAA for that.

Bull$hit.

You can if you wish go directly into commercial aircraft training school. There is no mandatory connection between private single engine and commercial ATP licensing.

That is exactly what Hanjour did.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:11:14 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#568. To: AGAviator (#564)

You can if you wish go directly into commercial aircraft training school. There is no mandatory connection between private single engine and commercial ATP licensing.

LIAR. You REALLY should look this stuff up before you are caught in some serious lies, like this one.

From ADF Airways

Requirements for a Commmercial Pilot License

This FAA certificate allows you to fly any aircraft for compensation or hire. The requirements are:

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   13:18:20 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#571. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#568)

Requirements for a Commmercial Pilot License

This FAA certificate allows you to fly any aircraft for compensation or hire. The requirements are:

•You must be a private pilot.

The requirements may have changed.

However if you want to confirm that Hanjour had both a private license, and a commercial pilot license, totally undercutting your false claims "he couldn't fly," fine with me!

Enjoy debunking yourself!!!!!

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   13:25:24 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#587. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, Critter, IRTorqued, abraxas, all (#571)

Requirements for a Commmercial Pilot License

This FAA certificate allows you to fly any aircraft for compensation or hire. The requirements are:

•You must be a private pilot.

The requirements may have changed.

However if you want to confirm that Hanjour had both a private license, and a commercial pilot license, totally undercutting your false claims "he couldn't fly," fine with me!

Enjoy debunking yourself!!!!!

So, is it your argument that ALL pilots are of equivalent skill?

Is it your argument that it is impossible that he got it fraudulently?

Despite your extensive time backslapping yourself and giving yourself "high 5's" you have not addressed the fundamental question regarding Hanjour's piloting?

How skilled was he?

Did he have experience the the type of aircraft he allegedly flew? You have produced NOTHING which supports his having the knowledge and skills to fly this type of aircraft. My father had a commercial license and was a damn good pilot, but I guarantee you that he would not set down behind the controls of a new type of aircraft without a good many hours of check-out and training on the new plane. Airline pilots are not interchangeable, except for a very few very senior pilots, between aircraft types.

Ever meet someone with a Phd. who was a complete boob? I have, and there are plenty of them out there. I have had people work for me who, on paper, were better educated, but they could not do my job. Paper proves nothing other than someone has passed the minimum requirements for something, and showing a piece of paper is not even a guarantee because paper can be forged or bought from a crooked employee. There have been instances where someone has actually performed as a Surgeon without even having gone to medical school (look up "The Great Impostor"). John Malloy who wrote "Dress For Success" wrote another book not quite as well known titled "Live For Success". One of the things he points out in his book is that there are some TOP Executives who do not have the education and certificates their resumes say they have. He commented that in fact some were so highly placed that he dare not say who (although a lot of the info was gathered under a bonded secrecy agreement).

Paper proves nothing, the ability to actually do the job is everything.

Stanley Ovshinsky is a High School graduate only, and yet there are probably not 5 men on the planet who know more about Solid State Physics than the man who invented the Amorphous Thin Film Solar Panel.

By all credible accounts and testimony from people who actually knew him, and were qualified to judge, Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot and to such a degree that he was turned down for rental of a single engine Cessna. And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit), that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane. Get real.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   14:28:40 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#588. To: Original_Intent (#587)

And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit), that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane. Get real.

You are BUSTED! I provided the detail @post#572 ... Hanjour was (in fact FAA certified) .....

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   14:41:11 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#591. To: buckeroo (#588)

You are BUSTED! I provided the detail @post#572 ... Hanjour was (in fact FAA certified) .....

You've been BUSTED so many times over the past several threads on this topic that I've lost count.

It's apparent that you ARE just another shill here buck. I thought you were just an eccentric poster here who liked to mess with people, acting as a troll more often than not, just to rile people up, where you'd sit back and enjoy the show.

Perhaps you're a "sleeper", who knows.

What's obvious though is whenever any hard evidence is brought to light, you've been proven wrong, yet you still cling to your false beliefs as if they were part of your religion.

Go ahead and find a copy of Hanjour's commercial pilot's license. See if you can find the location and date he took his FAA exam, and if the FAA examiner's name is on that certificate.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   15:31:54 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#609. To: FormerLurker (#591)

What's obvious though is whenever any hard evidence is brought to light, you've been proven wrong, yet you still cling to your false beliefs as if they were part of your religion.

You can't explain documented testimony, mathematics and physics.... but you can cite conspiracy websites..... Honestly, be a man about it and confess that you are BUSTED ... with AG's and my researched documentation about all of your silly conspiracies.... you lose again.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   16:03:59 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#620. To: buckeroo (#609)

with AG's and my researched documentation about all of your silly conspiracies

What documentation?

Your gif file that incorrectly showed Flight 77 turning around over West Virginia, where the NTSB is on record and has reported that it flew over Ohio THEN turned around?

Provide the following documentation;

  1. Name of Hanjour's commercial flight school, and the name of his instructor
  2. Actual copy of Hanjour's commercial pilot's license
  3. Location and date of Hanjour's FAA commericial pilot's exam
  4. Name of the FAA examiner who administered the exam

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   16:16:04 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#655. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#620) (Edited)

Provide the following documentation;

1.Name of Hanjour's commercial flight school, and the name of his instructor 2.Actual copy of Hanjour's commercial pilot's license 3.Location and date of Hanjour's FAA commericial pilot's exam 4.Name of the FAA examiner who administered the exam

You've been busted claiming Hanjour did not have any pilot licenses and couldn't fly anything.

Now you're trying to cover up by demanding proof that he did, once it was shown to you that Hanjour did have a valid commercial pilot license in 1999.

You've been provided leads to the sources and links where you can do your own research.

I don't do research for Half Truthers. You either need to do your own, or admit you're incapable of it.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   17:21:52 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#660. To: AGAviator (#655)

I don't do research

That much is obvious.

It's ALSO obvious there IS no official record of Hanjour ever having a valid commercial pilot's license. That he had a piece of paper stating he did, according to reports, is NOT evidence that he did actually have one.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   17:30:28 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#733. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#660)

It's ALSO obvious there IS no official record of Hanjour ever having a valid commercial pilot's license. That he had a piece of paper stating he did, according to reports, is NOT evidence that he did actually have one.

A staff of owner/operators of a flight school, whose livelihood depends on making sure aircraft renters have valid FAA certification, trumps your anonymous internet k00kblather.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   19:54:29 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#737. To: AGAviator (#733)

A staff of owner/operators of a flight school, whose livelihood depends on making sure aircraft renters have valid FAA certification, trumps your anonymous internet k00kblather.

Oh so all of his other instructors were wrong, and only the one who somewhat supports YOUR view is the fountain of truth. What a jackass you are.

Again, find a copy of the FAA commercial license and put this matter to rest.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   20:00:14 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#826. To: FormerLurker (#737)

Again, find a copy of the FAA commercial license and put this matter to rest.

he'll do that as quickly as he'll come up with the videos showing what really happened at the pentagon.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-21   23:27:54 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#828. To: IRTorqued (#826)

Here is a link PROVING hanjour had a FAA certificate: www.gpoaccess.gov/serials...pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf .. you read it... I am tired of the BS that some of you wantonly spew.

No wonder America is all fucked upped. The problem is far beyond just voters ... it is the speculators that don't know SHIT/

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   23:33:12 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#836. To: buckeroo (#828)

Here is a link PROVING hanjour had a FAA certificate: www.gpoaccess.gov/serials...pdf/fullreport_errata.pdf .. you read it... I am tired of the BS that some of you wantonly spew.

Where's the proof? I want to see a copy of the FAA license, and/or information as to what commercial flight school he attended, and the location and date of his FAA exam.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   0:01:42 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#841. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, (#836)

Where's the proof? I want to see a copy of the FAA license, and/or information as to what commercial flight

Where's Orly Taitz, Phil Allen Berg, and J. Allen Keyes when you need them?

MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   0:10:15 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#851. To: AGAviator (#841) (Edited)

Where's Orly Taitz, Phil Allen Berg, and J. Allen Keyes when you need them?

MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!

Where's your answer to my question about why there's no engine-noise in the background of those alleged phone calls from the alleged planes? Where's a valid source for your assertion, and Wikipedia's, that "Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking.[1]"? Your own Wikipedia reference does indicate that the evidentiary door parameters certainly don't support the hijacking story. Additionally, the rest of the statement, which evidently appears to be a fabrication, indicates as well that you need to remove #4 now from your itemized "not debunked" list. MWAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! backatcha.

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-22   5:51:35 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#857. To: GreyLmist, buckeroo (#851)

Where's your answer to my question about why there's no engine-noise in the background of those alleged phone calls from the alleged planes?

So you think airlines set up their satellite phones noise filters to capture jet engine sounds instead of voice conversation?

And you think somebody speaking quickly and urgently into the telephone about a hijacking and people getting their throats slashed is going to talk sotto voce so as to make sure the person getting called hears jet noise in the background?

What a wack question.

Where's a valid source for your assertion, and Wikipedia's, that "Among the uncertain parameters was the status of the cockpit door, which showed no sign of having been opened during the hijacking or previous 40 hours, including 11 flights prior to the hijacking.[1]"?

You can't even read a footnote?

Right Here

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   9:10:53 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#858. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#857)

So you think airlines set up their satellite phones noise filters to capture jet engine sounds instead of voice conversation?

Which aircraft do you allege had "satellite phones" onboard?

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:20:15 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#861. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#858)

Which aircraft do you allege had "satellite phones" onboard?

Read the evidence and do your own research before demanding proof from people you are disputing because they don't support your CT.

Orly Taitz type tactics of demanding evidence without supplying any, are not going to work for Half Truther challenges any better than they worked for Obama Birth Certificate challenges.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   9:25:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#863. To: AGAviator (#861)

Read the evidence and do your own research before demanding proof from people you are disputing because they don't support your CT.

In other words, there is no evidence.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   9:31:37 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#864. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#863)

In other words, there is no evidence.

There's plenty of evidence. I've posted thousands of words of links and videos while you and your pals are engaging in your snide gaybanter projections.

But at some point you have to bring some to get some, especially when you want things repeated you've already been shown, with your only reply being "I don't wanna believe that. The gubmint made it up."

Show me your evidence. A single piece of anything showing conclusive controlled demolition evidence.

A single person describing how "they" blew up the WTC buildings without leaving any physical traces and zero eye witnesses.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   9:37:12 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#867. To: AGAviator (#864)

I've posted thousands of words of links and videos while you and your pals are engaging in your snide gaybanter projections.

Barry Jennings says you are liar about bombs being in the buildings. He was there and heard them.

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   9:43:24 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#871. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#867)

Barry Jennings says you are liar about bombs being in the buildings.

Barry Jennings said no such thing, Half Truther, but as long as you want to quote him, have him produce the slightest fragment of explosive residue, igniters, det cord, or timing devices.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   10:46:35 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#910. To: AGAviator (#871)

have him produce the slightest fragment of explosive residue, igniters, det cord, or timing devices.

Kind of hard to do since the nice people you work for knocked him off. Of course you know that already. So like I said before, enjoy your short time on Earth, it is all you got, hell awaits. You will see Barry in Heaven then.

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   14:17:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#916. To: RickyJ (#910)

hell awaits.

Hell is for liars, Half Truther.

I've been debunking your Half Truther lies one after the other for the last month plus.

You will get there and I won't.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   14:47:57 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#917. To: AGAviator (#916)

Hell is for liars,

Yep, that it why it is waiting for you.

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   14:49:03 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#918. To: RickyJ (#917) (Edited)

Hell is for liars,

Yep, that it why it is waiting for you.

Another lie, circlejerk.

Now tell me if Hajour had a pilot license as of April 15, 1999.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   14:50:51 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#921. To: AGAviator (#918)

Now tell me if Hajour had a pilot license as of April 15, 1999.

I don't know or care about CIA agents and their documents. Let's talk about who benefited the most from 9/11. Do you know what country benefited the most? Do you know who shorted the airline stock of the airlines that allegedly struck the twin towers? You say you don't know? Let me give you a hint, it wasn't Iraq and it wasn't Afghanistan. And the shorters weren't Muslim.

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   15:58:21 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#927. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#921) (Edited)

I don't know or care about CIA agents and their documents.

You don't know or care about anything except stale k00kshit because you're a swillsucking anaerobe who can only consume something stagnant that nothing else will ingest.

Do you know who shorted the airline stock of the airlines that allegedly struck the twin towers? You say you don't know? Let me give you a hint, it wasn't Iraq and it wasn't Afghanistan. And the shorters weren't Muslim.

More already debunked k00kshit.

All claims of irregular pre-911 trading were investigated by hundreds of accountants, FBI agents, securities researchers, and computer specialists for a many months. They were all found - without exception - to be legitimate trades with no conceivable connection to al Qaeda.

One purchase of airline puts was part of a hedging strategy connected with a corresponding long position in another airline company stock. A second was based on technical analysis and FAXED to newsline subscribers the Sunday before 911.

Both securities analysts Jon Najarian and Phil Erlanger who originally raised the flag about possible irregular trades later researched them and found the explanations legitimate. They are on record as saying there was no invalid trading did in fact happen upon further research.

The claims of unsusual call option in Rayetheon are idiotic because of the small amount that would have been realized even if they were totally bought by people with advance knowledge. A few hundred call options and a gain in stock of $7 per share would gain about $160,000 in profits. A single "seat" which allows you to bid and trade on the floor costs $2.3+ million per year. $100,000 is chump change for the power traders on the exchanges. They make or lose tens of millions in a single deal.

Only losers like you think $100,000 is a big deal.

On every single stock and option market anywhere in the world, every single trade is recorded and the recipients known. Nobody has been charged anywhere in the world with irregular 911 trading.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   16:59:52 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#929. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#927)

All claims of irregular pre-911 trading were investigated by hundreds of accountants, FBI agents, securities researchers, and computer specialists for a many months. They were all found - without exception - to be legitimate trades with no conceivable connection to al Qaeda.

I don't think Al-CIAda is who they should have been looking at. BTW, do you have any links to any reports that state beyond a shadow of a doubt there wasn't any irregularities?

Both securities analysts Jon Najarian and Phil Erlanger who originally raised the flag about possible irregular trades later researched them and found the explanations legitimate. They are on record as saying there was no invalid trading did in fact happen upon further research.

Yeah, I bet they were both "made an offer they couldn't refuse"...

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   17:23:07 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#934. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#929)

any reports that state beyond a shadow of a doubt there wasn't any irregularities?

Why don't you start performing your own research? So far, you have called AGAviator a "liar" many times.

And not one shred of PROOF ... is that because you don't know how to use a search engine?

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   17:44:33 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#935. To: buckeroo (#934)

So far, you have called AGAviator a "liar" many times.

When he's lied, yes, I've called him a liar.

BTW, I'm still waiting to find out if this Hanjoor character is the same HanJOUR who is claimed to have flown Flight 77.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   17:46:45 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#936. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#935)

When he's lied, yes, I've called him a liar.

But he hasn't lied. You have lied by calling AG a liar.

BTW, I'm still waiting to find out if this Hanjoor character is the same HanJOUR who is claimed to have flown Flight 77.

Yes he is.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   17:52:36 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#937. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, ALL (#936)

But he hasn't lied. You have lied by calling AG a liar.

Everyplace I've said he's lied, he's lied.

Everyplace I've said YOU'VE lied, you've lied.

BTW, here's a link if you really want to find out about good ole Hani...

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun : Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   18:02:13 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#938. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#937)

Everyplace I've said he's lied, he's lied.

Everyplace I've said YOU'VE lied, you've lied.

But only YOU have lied... topic after topic, thread after thread.

You have wasted a lot time playing around about Hanjour's certification, particularly on this thread as it is about the demolition theory of the WTC.

You have repeatedly lied to this thread by even pursing Hanjour's background. After all your games, there is no PROOF, evidence, witnesses .... ANYTHING about the demolition theory you cling on to.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   18:08:02 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#939. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, ALL (#938)

You have repeatedly lied to this thread by even pursing Hanjour's background. After all your games, there is no PROOF, evidence, witnesses .... ANYTHING about the demolition theory you cling on to.

The proof concerning Hanjour (Hanjoor) is posted HERE buttercup, try joining the discussion, if you have anything to say...

And if you have anything to say concerning controlled demolition, try doing it HERE...

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   18:42:40 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#940. To: FormerLurker, Agaviator, ALL (#939)

buttercup

Hey fruitcake, you have lost two threads (with over 900 posts, each) with your BS.... why should I even click on your conspiracy theory crap anymore.

You aren't worth my time.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   19:02:02 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#942. To: buckeroo, AGaviator, ALL (#940)

Hey fruitcake, you have lost two threads (with over 900 posts, each) with your BS.... why should I even click on your conspiracy theory crap anymore.

You won't touch those threads since your "arguments" are tossed out the window and proven wrong, especially your claims concerning Hanjour.

And BTW, a demoltions expert from CDI DOES say the WTC towers were probably taken out with controlled demolitions.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   19:35:45 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#945. To: FormerLurker (#942)

You won't touch those threads since your "arguments" are tossed out the window and proven wrong, especially your claims concerning Hanjour.

Why should I provide more data and evidence countering your blabbering while your circle jerk friends, ignore the serous truth about the same. I have no more tolerance for your BS.

FACT1: Hanjour has proven FAA records of possessing a private pilot's license AND a commercial pilot's operating certificate.

This means YOUR conspiracy claims are invalid.

FACT2: AAFLT77 was not equipped with cabin door sensors.

This means YOUR obvious conspiracy claims are invalid.

FACT3: The WTC Towers fell at times far slower than "freefall time" no matter where you believe the calculation should be computed from.

This means you are full of hot-aire about YOUR demolition conspiracy theory.

You are a waste of time.... other than a belly laff from time to time.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   19:48:44 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#949. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, GreyLmist, RickyJ, ALL (#945)

FACT1: Hanjour has proven FAA records of possessing a private pilot's license AND a commercial pilot's operating certificate. This means YOUR conspiracy claims are invalid.

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

by Jeremy R. Hammond / April 18th, 2010

Hani Hanjour is the hijacker who flew American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001, according to the official account of terrorist attacks. "The lengthy and extensive flight training obtained by Hani Hanjour throughout his years in the United States makes it reasonable to believe that he was the pilot of Flight 77 on September 11," concluded FBI Director Robert S. Mueller.1 The story is that while Hanjour had difficulties learning to fly at first, he persevered, overcame his obstacles, and became an extraordinary enough pilot to be able to precisely hit his target after performing a difficult flight maneuver.

The New York Times, for instance, asserted that "Mr. Hanjour overcame the mediocrity of his talents as a pilot and gained enough expertise to fly a Boeing 757 into the Pentagon."2 The Washington Post similarly suggested Hanjour had the requisite skills, reporting that "Federal records show that a Hani Hanjoor obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 with a rating to fly commercial jets."3

The 9/11 Commission expanded upon this narrative in its final report. It noted that Hanjour first came to the United States in 1991 to study English, then again in 1996 "to pursue flight training, after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia." In 1997, after returning to Arizona, he "began his flight training there in earnest. After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot’s license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April 1999."4

Subsequently, "Hanjour reportedly applied to the civil aviation school in Jeddah after returning home, but was rejected." By the end of 2000, Hanjour was back in the U.S. and "began refresher training at his old school, Arizona Aviation. He wanted to train on multi-engine planes, but had difficulties because his English was not good enough. The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001."5 A footnote in the report asserts that Hanjour was chosen specifically for targeting the Pentagon because he was "the operation’s most experienced pilot."6

John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well-conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.

As the Los Angeles Times ironically put it, "For someone suspected of steering a jetliner into the Pentagon, the 29-year-old man who used the name Hani Hanjour sure convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly."19

The Legend Unraveled

According to an FBI chronology for Hani Hanjour cited by the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour first travelled to the U.S. in 1991 on a visa issued in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor", in order to attend the University of Arizona’s Center for English as a Second Language. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he was again issued a visa at Jeddah in March, 1996. Back in the U.S., he attended classes at the ELS Language Center in Oakland, California from May until August. For a week in September, he took ground training lessons at the Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center (SAAATC). From the end of September until mid-October, he purchased flight instruction from Cockpit Resources Management (CRM) in Scottsdale, Arizona. He then returned to Saudi Arabia once more.20 The Washington Post reported that according to Hanjour’s brother, Yasser, "Hanjour applied for a job at the state-owned Saudi Arabian Airlines but was told that he lacked sufficient grades.... He said the company told him it would reconsider his application only if he acquired a commercial pilot’s license in the United States."21 Yasser characterized Hanjour "as a frustrated young Saudi who wanted desperately – but never succeeded – to become a pilot for the Saudi national airline."22

Hanjour made plans to return to the U.S. and was issued a third visa in Jeddah in November 1997. His visa application contained red flags that should have resulted in his visa being denied. He failed to write in the name and address of the school he would be attending and provided no proof, as required by law, that he could furnish financial support for himself.23 With that application accepted, he reentered the U.S. and took pilot training from CRM again in December.24

It was at this time that, according the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour began his training "in earnest". But in reality, while at CRM, Hanjour never finished coursework required to get his certificate to be able to fly a single-engine aircraft.25 The New York Times reported that "he was a lackadaisical student who often cut class and never displayed the passion so common among budding commercial airline pilots."26 ABC News reported that when he returned to CRM that December, "He was trying for his private pilot’s license", but according to one of his instructor’s, he "was a very poor student who skipped homework and missed flights."27 The school’s attorney said that when Hanjour reapplied again later in 2000, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn’t think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997."28 The school’s owner described him as a "weak student" who "was wasting our resources."29 He said, "One of the first accomplishments of someone in flight school is to fly a plane without an instructor. It is a confidence-building procedure. He managed to do that. That is like being able to pull a car out and drive down the street. It is not driving on the freeway." Although it normally took three months for students to earn their private pilot’s certificate, Hanjour "did not accomplish that at my school." He added, "We didn’t want him back at our school because he was not serious about becoming a good pilot."30 The Chicago Tribune reported that at CRM, "A flight instructor said Hanjour left an impression by being unimpressive. ‘He was making weak progress,’ said Duncan Hastie, president of CRM."31

Hanjour switched schools, and from the end of December 1997 until April 1999, took flight lessons from Arizona Aviation in Mesa, Arizona.24 There, too, the 9/11 Commission’s own evidence contradicts the characterization that Hanjour was training "in earnest". An FBI document cited by the Commission stated that "Hanjour often participated in flying lessons for a one to two weeks [sic] and then would disappear for weeks or months at a time." The school "often had to call Hanjour in an effort to get Hanjour to pay his bill."32

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32

In April 1998, Hanjour applied for his private pilot certificate with a single-engine rating, but he failed his test. One of the tasks documents show he would need to be reexamined for was "coordinated turns to headings"34 He tried again later that same month and this time received his private pilot certificate under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor," with an "Airplane Single Engine Land" rating.

In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin-engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single-engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39

Additionally, commercial pilot certification is different from the Airline Transport Pilot certification held by airline captains. To obtain a commercial certificate with a multi-engine rating, Hanjour only needed to log in 250 hours of flight time, whereas to obtain an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, pilots are required to log 1,500 hours.40 Needless to say, having the ability to control a Cessna 172 or Piper Apache propeller plane does not translate into the ability to handle a Boeing 757 jetliner – and Hanjour could barely do the former.

Anyone unfamiliar with pilot certification could easily make the mistake of thinking a "commercial pilot license" meant Hanjour was qualified to fly a jet airliner, a conclusion reinforced by the Washington Post’s false assertion that his certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets." The 9/11 Commission report reinforced that false impression, only vaguely hinting at the truth six paragraphs later by saying that Hanjour subsequently "wanted to train on multi-engine planes". But the Commission then further obfuscated that truth by asserting that this was merely "refresher" training (a matter to which we will return).

Hanjour again left the country on April 28, 1999.24 As the 9/11 Commission report observed, when he returned to Saudi Arabia to apply in the civil aviation school in Jeddah, he was rejected.24 He subsequently began making preparations to return to the U.S. once again.24 In September 2000, Hanjour was denied a student visa after indicating that he wanted to remain in the U.S. for three years, and yet listed no address for where he intended to stay in Arizona.23 But he tried again for a student visa under the name "Hani Hanjour" later that same month. This time, he wrote that he wanted to stay for one year instead of three, and listed a specific address in California, not Arizona, where he said he was going on his first application. Despite these obvious red flags, he was issued the visa.23

He entered the U.S. in December and took more flight lessons that month at Arizona Aviation. From February until mid-March, he attended Pan Am International Flight Academy, also known as Jet Tech International, in Mesa, Arizona.24

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi-engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43

As already discussed, it remains an open question whether Hanjour was actually qualified to hold his commercial pilot certificate. It was at this time, as the Associated Press reported, that "Federal aviation authorities were alerted in early 2001 that an Arizona flight school believed one of the eventual Sept. 11 hijackers lacked the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot’s license he already held, flight school and government officials say."44 The manager of JetTech said, "I couldn’t believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had."45

Whereas the 9/11 Commission suggested that, because he "persevered", Hanjour "completed the initial training", thus leading the public to the conclusion that his skills had advanced accordingly, the Times offered a very different account: "Ultimately administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex- employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. ‘He didn’t care about the fact that he couldn’t get through the course,’ the ex-employee said. Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. ‘I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,’ the former employee said. ‘He could not fly at all.’"43

Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46

According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45

As with the fact that multiple visa applications from Hanjour should have been denied, the 9/11 Commission made no mention of any of this. One would think that a commission tasked with investigating the events of 9/11 with the goal of assessing what went wrong and fixing the system to prevent any loss of life in the future would have looked into who issued Hanjour visas in Jeddah and why the red flags were ignored. One would think that misconduct from FAA officials and contractors that allowed a terrorist to improperly obtain certification to fly a plane would also not be outside of the purview of the investigation – yet the Commission's report is absolutely silent on this.

Turning to the footnote for the claim that Hanjour "completed" training at Jet Tech, one can read (emphasis added): "For his training at Pan Am International Flight Academy and completion by March 2001, see FBI report ‘Hijackers Timeline,’ Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 8, 2001, entries...)". But turning to that source, the FBI timeline does not state that Hanjour "completed" the training, only that he "ended" the course on March 16.47 The truth is that, as the Washington Post reported, "Hanjour flunked out after a month" at Jet Tech.12 Offering corroboration for that account, the Associated Press similarly reported that "Hanjour did not finish his studies at JetTech and left the school."48

The 9/11 Commission additionally noted that Hanjour had later gone to Air Fleet Training Systems in New Jersey and "requested to fly the Hudson Corridor" along the Hudson River, which passed the World Trade Center. He was permitted to fly the route once, "but his instructor declined a second request because of what he considered Hanjour’s poor piloting skills", the Commission admits. However, the report continues, "Shortly thereafter, Hanjour switched to Caldwell Flight Academy in Fairfield, New Jersey, where he rented small aircraft on several occasions during June and July. In one such instance on July 20, Hanjour – likely accompanied by Hazmi – rented a plane from Caldwell and took a practice flight from Fairfield to Gaithersburg, Maryland, a route that would have allowed them to fly near Washington, D.C. Other evidence suggests Hanjour may even have returned to Arizona for flight simulator training earlier in June."49

But here, the pattern of deception continues by omission of other relevant facts. The report does not explain that when Hanjour was permitted to fly the Hudson Corridor in May of 2001, unlike his subsequent rental flights, it was with an instructor on a check ride, and not a solo flight.24 By saying his instructor there "considered" Hanjour’s skills to be poor, the 9/11 Commission implied this was merely a subjective judgment, but that others considered him perfectly capable. Although it would have been a standard practice, there’s no indication from FBI records that Caldwell actually required him to go on a check ride before renting the plane. Even more significantly, the 9/11 Commission omitted altogether the fact that, while Hanjour was allowed to rent from Caldwell Flight Academy, he was rejected yet again by yet another school shortly thereafter that the record shows did require a check ride.

In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19

The deception does not end with this rather egregious omission. As noted, the 9/11 Commission also suggested that Hanjour obtained further training in a flight simulator, again, in an apparent attempt to exaggerate his training. But a review of the records shows that the preponderance of evidence indicates Hanjour was actually in New Jersey throughout the time period in question in June. FBI records show that on May 31, 2001, after having been rejected at Air Fleet Training Systems, Hanjour rented a Cessna 172 at Caldwell Flight Academy, where he "made an error taxing [sic] the airplane upon his return." On June 6, he rented a single-engine aircraft. The FBI placed him in Paterson, New Jersey, on June 10. Then he rented a plane again on June 11, 18, and 19. The FBI has Hanjour (along with Nawaf Al-Hazmi) obtaining a mailbox at Mailboxes, Etc. in Fort Lee, New Jersey, on June 26, and opening a bank account and making an ATM withdrawal in New Jersey on June 27.53

Somewhere in there, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that "evidence suggests" Hanjour again trained on a simulator in Arizona. To begin with, the simulator at the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix was for small aircraft and was nothing like the cockpit of a Boeing 757 – another fact omitted by the Commission.54 But this perhaps becomes a moot point when one realizes that the evidence shows Hanjour never left New Jersey. Turning to the footnote for this claim, the Commission stated that documents from Sawyer "show Hanjour joining the flight simulator club on June 23, 2001". But, the footnote acknowledges, "the documents are inconclusive, as there are no invoices or payment records for Hanjour, while such documents do exist for the other three" who joined the club at that time. The actual evidence thus demonstrates clearly that while Hanjour may have signed up (something which may have been possible over the phone or via the internet), he did not actually attend. The footnote further acknowledges that "Documentary evidence for Hanjour, however, shows that he was in New Jersey for most of June, and no travel records have been recovered showing that he returned to Arizona after leaving with Hazmi in March."55

The second piece of "evidence" that "suggests" Hanjour took further flight simulator training is a Sawyer employee who "identified Hanjour as being there during that time period, though she was less than 100 percent sure." The FBI document cited in the footnote for that claim was obtained by Intelwire.com, but it is almost entirely redacted, so it’s impossible to verify the actual nature of this eyewitness testimony.56 But another document cited further into the same footnote also refers to the eyewitness from Sawyer, who described the four men who had joined the club. The first "UNSUB" (unidentified subject) was "short and stocky". The second was 5’9"-5’10", 170 pounds, and "medium build". The third was 5’8", 170 pounds, and "medium build". And the fourth was 5’6"-5’7" with a beard and mustache. Other eyewitness descriptions for Hanjour offered in the same FBI document have him as being no more than 5’6" (one witness from Arizona Aviation, the document notes, "confirmed that he was only about 5’0" tall"), 140-150 pounds, and very slight and thin, with short, curly hair. This clearly rules out the first three subjects, leaving only the detail-lacking fourth description as being the only one possibly matching Hanjour’s description. But the details given are far too vague to suggest a positive identification, particularly given the witness’s own admission that she wasn’t sure if it was Hanjour.57

Even more significantly, that same FBI document reveals that it was not during the FBI’s initial interview with the witness that she identified that fourth "unsub" as Hanjour, as the 9/11 Commission report implies by citing the report from the FBI’s initial interview for that claim in the footnote. Rather, it was later, during a second interview that occurred after the names and images of the hijackers had been shown repeatedly in the media that she picked Hanjour’s out of a photo lineup. The FBI summary of that later interview states that according to the witness, Hanjour "has the same general characteristics and is very similar appearing as the person she saw at Sawyer.... However, she could not be 100% sure."57

The third and final piece of "evidence" is another witness who identified Hanjour as being "in the Phoenix area during the summer of 2001", citing the FBI document just discussed, which is redacted enough that this claim cannot be readily verified. But the document does show additionally that Hanjour’s membership was good only from June 23 until August 8, at which time it expired.57

Thus, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that sometime after June 19, Hanjour went from the east coast to Arizona without leaving any paper trail (i.e. airline or car rental records, ATM withdrawals, etc.), signed up for a two-week flight simulator club on June 23 without leaving any record he ever actually paid or even showed up (whereas records did exist for other members), only to change his mind and return again to be back in New Jersey with Nawaf Al-Hazmi three days later. In other words, what the evidence actually suggests is that the eyewitness testimony is unreliable and that, contrary to the Commission’s assertion, Hanjour never left New Jersey during that time.

There is a clear pattern of misleading and untruthful statements in the 9/11 Commission’s final report that cannot be dismissed as mere error. Rather, the evidence is incontrovertible that the Commission willfully and deliberately sought to present a falsified story of the alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour; not to relate the facts to the public, but rather to cement a legend in the public mind; not to investigate and draw conclusions based on the facts, but to start with a conclusion – the official account of 9/11 – and manipulate the facts to suit the government’s own conspiracy theory.

The Fiction Perpetuated

The mainstream media has dealt with the problematic nature of the official story in a number of ways. As already seen, one method has simply been to exaggerate characterizations of Hanjour's competence. The official story as related by the New York Times that Hanjour "overcame the mediocrity of his talents" is not merely unsupportable by the evidence, but stands in stark contrast to the available known facts. The legend is also maintained by the mainstream media through false claims, such as the Washington Post’s assertion that Hanjour’s pilot certificate allowed him to fly commercial jets. While the Los Angeles Times suggested Hanjour "convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly", the underlying assumption of the article was that, despite his apparent ineptitude in the cockpit, he really did know how to fly. The public is apparently supposed to believe that he was merely pretending to an incompetent pilot even though he was actually quite skillful. The mainstream media have a tendency to mock and ridicule anyone who dares even to just question the official narrative, all the while putting forth such utter absurdities as this.

As the evidence surfaced that Hanjour was not the pilot extraordinaire the public was initially told he must have been in order to carry out the attack on the Pentagon, another narrative began to emerge. While most of the mainstream media simply ignored the evidence, or, as in the case of the New York Times, drew conclusions that were contradicted by some of their own reporting. In no small part due to the 9/11 Commission report’s findings, the fiction remained firmly embedded in the minds of the public that Hanjour, through determination and perseverance, overcame all obstacles in order to acquire the skills necessary to pilot Flight 77 into the Pentagon.

There was, however, at least some acknowledgment of the major hole in that theory. A few media reports did acknowledge that Hanjour was a horrible pilot and that all evidence demonstrated that he never "overcame his mediocrity". But rather than calling the official theory into question in doing so, these accounts simply offered a revisionist account in order to maintain the legend.

Gone was the story that the hijackers' "capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial", that the attacks were "conducted in a technically proficient way", that "It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case". No more was the expert opinion that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators", that Flight 77's final maneuver was "a difficult high-speed descending turn". Vanished was the view that Flight 77 "was flown with extraordinary skill", even so that it "reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver", that this was evidence of "a great talent" in the cockpit.

In the place of that conventional wisdom, the new narrative that began to emerge in some accounts was that it really wasn't that difficult a maneuver after all, and even a novice pilot like Hani Hanjour – or anyone who’s ever flown a small aircraft and perhaps spent some time playing a flight simulator game, for that matter – could have, with just a bit of luck, pulled it off.

The New American presented this new narrative by quoting Ronald D. Bull, a retired United Airlines pilot, as saying, "It’s not that difficult, and certainly not impossible." But Bull was apparently not speaking specifically with regard to the Pentagon, as he then added, "If you’re doing a suicide run, like these guys were doing, you’d just keep the nose down and push like the devil." In this case, Bull seems to have had the attacks on the World Trade Center, and not the Pentagon, in mind. Moreover, even if Bull also had the Pentagon in mind, he was obviously only considering a situation where the pilot was flying in a straight line towards his target. Thus, if he was also speaking with regard to the Pentagon, he was quite apparently uninformed as to the actual flight path the plane took.

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."58 It’s true that the Pentagon was a very big target. But Williams was apparently similarly aware, when he was asked to comment, of the plane’s final descending maneuver; or of the fact that this maneuver put the plane on a path that reduced the margin to a mere 26.5 feet (a few feet lower, the plane crashes into the ground; a few feet higher, the plane overshoots the target); or that the plane wasn't flying at a constant airspeed, but was rather accelerating rapidly, thus creating more lift that needed compensating for with subtle precision in order to stay within that margin for error; or that the plane wasn't just ambling along at something near landing speed, but was screaming along at an incredible 530 mph. To put that into perspective, cruising speed for airliners is about 600 mph at 30,000 feet of altitude, where the air is less dense. At sea-level that would be equivalent to about 300 mph hour, about double safe landing speed. A velocity of 530 mph at sea-level would be supersonic speed if it were possible to maintain at cruising altitude.59

In both cases, the expert pilots seem to assume that Hanjour simply lined up the hijacked plane and flew a straight line into the building at a speed at which an aircraft could more easily be controlled by an inexperienced pilot. Needless to say, neither pilot’s statements accurately reflect the actual situation with regard to Flight 77. There is no indication that the New American bothered to fill either Bull or Williams in on the specifics of what Flight 77 actually did when it sought them out to "debunk" the assertion that Hanjour wasn’t a capable enough pilot to have pulled it off.

Offering a similar revisionist account, airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home."60

So, according to this narrative, Hanjour’s "textbook" "fighter jet maneuver" in a Boeing 757 is evidence that he was a "shitty pilot" and any pilot wannabe with some rudimentary training and maybe just a little bit of luck could have done it. It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields. These remarks are perhaps not so much the result of an attempt to challenge conventional wisdom as they were simply demonstrative that Smith made very little effort to actually understand the actual nature of Flight 77’s final flight path before writing that it is a "myth" that Hanjour was not a pilot capable of having performed that maneuver. His characterization of Hanjour’s final maneuver as "loops and turns and spirals" indicates that Smith was generalizing without having any real concept of what Flight 77 actually did in its final minutes. A further indication that Smith really just didn’t know what he was talking about was his suggestion that Hanjour "possibly" had "help from the 757’s autopilot" in pulling off those final maneuvers, which is both patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.

The German magazine Der Spiegel also made the rare attempt to actually address this issue, but found it sufficient enough merely to opine that "This is not difficult to accomplish" and similarly suggesting practically anyone could do it since it was "a maneuver that can be practiced with any flight simulator software."61 End of discussion.

The public was originally told that attack on the Pentagon obviously required a fairly high level of sophistication in the cockpit. It was conventional wisdom that being able to maneuver a large jetliner required a certain level of training, a certain level of skill. The public was then told that Hanjour was the pilot among the 19 hijackers who had the most training and the greatest piloting skill. As the facts emerged and it became evident that Hanjour did not have the requisite level of skill, the government chose to manipulate the evidence in order to maintain its theory. The 9/11 Commission served to cement the legend of Hani Hanjour into history, and the mainstream media, for the most part, accepted and maintained that legend even when much of their own reporting revealed facts that contradicted it. In a few cases, there was acknowledgment that Hanjour was a "shitty" pilot after all, but in such cases the official account was still maintained by throwing common sense out the window and reversing the original consensus that it must have taken a skilled pilot to have performed that final, fatal maneuver.

Perhaps this revisionist retelling of the official story is the correct one. Perhaps the conventional wisdom that it would actually take a skilled pilot to competently control a large jetliner is really wrong. Perhaps it’s true that any second-rate pilot who has trouble controlling even a Cessna-172 could get into the cockpit of a Boeing 757 and do what Hani Hanjour is said to have done. Or, on the other hand, perhaps the revisionist account is just as much nonsense as the story that Hanjour "persevered" and "overcame his mediocrity".

Whichever the case, many questions about the events of 9/11 remain to this day unanswered, despite the appointment of the 9/11 Commission ostensibly to investigate and provide answers to those questions. And whichever the case, the conclusion is inescapable that the 9/11 Commission deliberately attempted to deceive the public about the piloting capabilities of Hani Hanjour.

Why?

  1. Statement for the Record FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry, September 26, 2002. [<-]
  2. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office," New York Times, June 19, 2002. [<-]
  3. FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers,” Washington Post, September 15, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  4. Working Draft Chronology of Events for Hijackers and Associates,” FBI, November 14, 2003 (hereafter “FBI Hijackers Timeline”), p. 41. The complete FBI timeline is available for download online. See: “Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission”, HistoryCommons.org, February 14, 2008. The timeline reads: “FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802 to [redacted] [sic].” The “[sic]” is in the original. Why the name “Hani Saleh Hanjoor” is redacted is unclear. [<-]
  5. The Final Report of the National commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, p. 225-227 (hereafter “9/11 Commission Report”). [<-]
  6. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 530. [<-]
  7. Global Security, September 14, 2001. [<-]
  8. Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” CNN, September 12, 2001. The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. [<-]
  9. ‘Get These Planes on the Ground’: Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11,83; ABC News, October 24, 2001. [<-]
  10. Prima ry Target: 189 Dead Or Missing From Pentagon Attack”, CBS News, September 21, 2001. [<-]
  11. Marc Fisher and Don Phillips, “On Flight 77: ‘Our Plane is Being Hijacked,’” Washington Post, September 12, 2001; Page A01 [<-]
  12. Steve Fainaru and Alia Ibrahim, “Mysterious Trip to Flight 77 Cockpit,” Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  13. Flight Path Study – American Airlines Flight 77,” NTSB, February 19, 2002. [<-]
  14. A copy of the NTSB video was obtained by the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth. It is available for viewing on YouTube (accessed April 8, 2010). [<-]
  15. The Pentagon,” GlobalSecurity.org. [<-]
  16. Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, “A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon, Halting the Government,” New York Times, September 12, 2001. [<-]
  17. The Pentagon,” Great Buildings Online (accessed March 27, 2010). Boeing 757 Technical Specifications from Boeing.com (accessed Marcy 27, 2010). [<-]
  18. DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation,” Department of Defense, September 15, 2001. [<-]
  19. Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<- ] [<-]
  20. FBI Summary about Alleged Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour”, Scribd.com (accessed April 6, 2010; herafter “FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour”). This document was cited by the 9/11 Commission. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) possesses the Commission’s records and has released many documents to the public. See: “9/11 Commission Records,” NARA (accessed March 28, 2010). Many of the released records are available online at Scribd.com. See: “9/11 Document Archive,” Scribd.com (accessed March 28, 2010). [<-]
  21. Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<- ]
  22. Charles M. Sennott, “Why bin Laden plot relied on Saudi hijackers,” Boston Globe, March 3, 2002. [<-]
  23. Joel Mowbray, “Visas that Should Have Been Denied,” National Review Online, October 9, 2002. [<-] [<-] [<-]
  24. FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour. [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-]
  25. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  26. David W. Chen, “Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot,” New York Times, September 18, 2001. [<-] [<-]
  27. Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks,” ABC News, October 4, 2001. [<-]
  28. Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  29. “Hanjour an unlikely terrorist,” Cape Cod Times, October 21, 2001. [<-]
  30. Carol J. Williams, John-Thor Dahlburg, and H.G. Reza, “Mainly, They Just Waited,” Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<-]
  31. V. Dion Haynes, “Algerian man didn’t try to hide, neighbors say,” Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2001. [<-]
  32. FBI Summary of Information, Lofti Raissi”, January 4, 2004. [<-] [<-]
  33. 9/11 Commission Report p. 520. [<-]
  34. Hanjour’s FAA airman documentation from the 9/11 Commission records released by NARA are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  35. Hanjour’s FAA airman records are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  36. Kellie Lunney, “FAA contractors approved flight licenses for Sept. 11 suspect,” Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  37. Report: 9/11 Hijacker Bypassed FAA,” Associated Press, September 30, 2004 [<-] [<-]
  38. Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  39. The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 12. The report notes that “To our knowledge none of them [the hijackers] had ever flown an actual airliner before.” [<-]
  40. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Sections 61.123, 61.129. Present requirements in these regards are the same as they were when Hanjour obtained his certificate. See the version revised as of January 1, 1999. [<-]
  41. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 521- 522. [<-]
  42. FBI FD-302, James Charles McRae,” April 10, 2001. [<-]
  43. Jim Yardley, “A Trainee Noted for Incompetence,” New York Times, May 4, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  44. FAA Probed, Cleared Sept. 11 Hijacker in Early 2001,” Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  45. David Hancock, “FAA Was Alerted to Sept. 11 Hijacker,” CBS News, May 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  46. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office,” New York Times, June 19, 2001 [<-]
  47. FBI Hijacker’s Timeline, p.123. [<-]
  48. Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  49. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 242. [<-]
  50. Brooke A. Masters, Leef Smith, and Michael D. Shear, “Dulles Hijackers Made Maryland Their Base,” Washington Post, September 19, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  51. Piecing together the shadowy lives of the hijackers,” Telegraph, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  52. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, November 24, 2004. [<-]
  53. FBI Hijackers Timeline, p. 150, 154, 156-157, 161-162, 166-167. [<-]
  54. Jacques Billeaud, “More Arizona ties to terror suspect,” Associated Press, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  55. "9/11 Commission Report," p. 529. The document cited by the 9/11 Commission was obtained by Intelwire.com. “FBI Memorandum, Sawyer Aviation records”, October 12, 2001. [<-]
  56. FBI FD-302, Interrogation of Tina Beth Arnold (Sawyer Aviation) ,” FBI, October 17, 2001. [<-]
  57. FBI Summary of Information, Lotfi Raissi,” FBI, January 4, 2004 [<-] [<-] [<-]
  58. William F. Jasper, “9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction," The New American, May 2, 2005. [<-]
  59. Airplane Flight: How High? How Fast? ” NASA (accessed April 17, 2010). Relative airspeed is calculated by the equation B d v2 = W, where factor B depends on the profile of a given set of wings (larger wings produce more lift), d is air density, v is velocity, and W is the airplane’s weight. At 30,000 feet, air density is about ¼ that at sea level, allowing an airliner to double its speed to produce the same amount of lift. [<-]
  60. Patrick Smith, “A sk the pilot,” Salon, May 19, 2006. [<-]
  61. What Really Happened: The 9/11 Fact File,” Der Spiegel, December 20, 2006. [<-]

Jeremy R. Hammond is the editor of Foreign Policy Journal, a website providing news, analysis, and opinion from outside the standard framework provided by government officials and the corporate media. He was among the recipients of the 2010 Project Censored Awards for outstanding investigative journalism and is the author of The Rejection of Palestinian Self- Determination. You can contact him at: jeremy@foreignpolicyjournal.com. Read other articles by Jeremy, or visit Jeremy's website.

This article was posted on Sunday, April 18th, 2010 at 9:00am and is filed under 9-11, Disinformation, FBI, General.


FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   19:58:02 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#952. To: FormerLurker, Agaviator, ALL (#949)

Willful Deception

Did you notice the author has links to Hanjour's official FAA pilot certification background?

Even before your silly article I posted the same.... you are a laff a minute and behind the eightball like your pal Stutts.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:02:37 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#953. To: buckeroo (#952)

The documented evidence completely destroys your illusion and tap dance that Hanjour was a "skilled pilot". Even his instructors questioned the validity of his "license" and reported him to the FAA.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:03:54 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#955. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#953)

The documented evidence completely destroys your illusion and tap dance that Hanjour was a "skilled pilot".

No one, that is to say, AG or myself have made that claim.... only you and your circle-jerk colleagues. I have maintained Hanjour was scared shitless actually attempting to pilot the craft.... research my references... you know how to use the edit function of your browser, don't you?

Even his instructors questioned the validity of his "license" and reported him to the FAA.

So what? He passed his exams and received certification which BLOWS your idea out the tube, pal.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:09:22 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#959. To: buckeroo (#955) (Edited)

No one, that is to say, AG or myself have made that claim.... only you and your circle-jerk colleagues. I have maintained Hanjour was scared shitless actually attempting to pilot the craft.... research my references... you know how to use the edit function of your browser, don't you?

This hack is getting desperate and brain damaged from absorbing so many direct hits to his paper thin skull membrane especially on this thread.

I've always maintained that Hanjour was a marginal pilot whose aircraft got away from him as he hit a recently reinforced mostly vacant and militarily useless value parking lot overlooking section.

Far from being a "precision maneuver" it was a wobbling and off-angle clipping of a wall instead of a full on 90 degree direct impact.

Which section was not even fully staffed due to construction work still wrapping up. Instead of hitting north side of the Pentagon which is where the targets, offices of value,and important staff were.

The only hits of any value to al Qaeda were the NYC ones. Those actually did some substantial damage and actually exceeded bin Laden's expectations.

The other 2 hijackings were tactical failures and only served to get America more pissed off, although that did ultimately play into AQ's hands by instigating a massive revenge which has resulted in enormous killing of innocents, enormous military spending, and an ongoing threat of economic bankruptcy promised by OBL in his 2004 video.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:29:36 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#968. To: AGAviator (#959) (Edited)

Far from being a "precision maneuver" it was a wobbling and off- angle clipping of a wall instead of a full on 90 degree direct impact.

Liar. And you ARE a liar extraordinaire.

From the Hanjour article;


John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well- conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:38:53 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#975. To: FormerLurker, blockqutoe (#968)

At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at

...

Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.

What a fucking whack

You want to allege that any attacker deliberately ignored a high value north side target, to put the plane into a turn where he clipped lamp standards and instead hit a mostly empty, mostly vacant, recently reinforced office backwater.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:53:23 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#980. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#975)

proverbially speaking

Aren't those cool, neat facts from FL's own resource? WOW... "proverbial" has really swayed my thinking now.

ROTFL

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:57:37 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#981. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#980)

proverbially speaking

Aren't those cool, neat facts from FL's own resource? WOW... "proverbial" has really swayed my thinking now.

ROTFL

They're not facts. It's an analogy.

"Like hitting the side of a barn."

Which it was.

Fuck you're stupid.

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:01:44 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#984. To: wudidiz (#981)

They're not facts. It's an analogy.

Oh this is RICH! .. no facts just silly BS. Thanks for making my point, pal.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:03:06 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#994. To: buckeroo (#984)

Oh this is RICH! .. no facts just silly BS. Thanks for making my point, pal.

You argue like a girl.

A dumb girl.

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:13:07 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#1000. To: wudidiz (#994) (Edited)

Stop insulting the girls.....even the dumb gilrs!!

Respect my authority!!! : )

Yippie.......Ab slips in for 1000!!!

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22   21:16:08 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#1007. To: abraxas (#1000)

Yippie.......Ab slips in for 1000!!!

Wow, that doesn't happen too often around here, congratulations are in order.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:18:43 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 1007.

#1010. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz (#1007)

Thanks FL.........I had to sneak in and garner the coveteted post from the grasp of wudidiz.

But Ididiz....lol

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-22 21:20:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 1007.

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