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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source: BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
Ping List: *4um PSY-OP Club*     Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*
Keywords: None
Views: 17193
Comments: 1209

An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks.

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition".

The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell.

Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York.

After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001.

This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking").

Resistance to collapse

Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures.

Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts.

"The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website.

Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse.

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

'Fair assumption'

The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

"One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen.

The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings.

The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center.

This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers.

Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble.

Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse.

Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design. Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*

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#1127. To: Original_Intent (#1124)

Wrong again - the assertions made, when and where, are not relevant to exposing your misrepresentations.

You are insane.... FL has repeatedly misrepresented Hanjour has his "Holy Grail."

What a silly, nitwit you are in publick.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:07:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1128. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#1125)

Unlike you, OI admits when he made an error, one which was largely insignificant compared to your whoppers, which you've NEVER retracted.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:08:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1129. To: FormerLurker (#1126)

And according to his instructors, he was a terrible student and even worse pilot. One said, "he couldn't fly at all". One school called the FAA to verify that he actually possessed a license, thinking that what he presented was a fake, since he lacked any of the skills required of a person holding that sort of license.

So what?

You are the guy that kept driving this thread to Hanjour's background... I have proved you don't know anything but how to spin even your coverups about your own posts here on this thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:08:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1130. To: buckeroo (#1127)

You are insane.... FL has repeatedly misrepresented Hanjour has his "Holy Grail."

What have I misrepresented there whackjob? I ASKED for a copy of his license, and you posted it, so WHAT?

The evidence and documentation indicates he was NOT qualified to hold that license.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:10:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1131. To: FormerLurker (#1128)

OI admits when he made an error

That blowfish? ROTFL.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:10:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1132. To: James Deffenbach (#1110)

Maybe they could find some honest work. What you reckon?

Oh no, honest work is for honest people. I reckon used car salesman, pyramid marketing, selling ponzi schemes, rolling winos or pushing big pharma wares.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   15:12:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1133. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, wudidiz, IRTorqued, GreyLmist, RickyJ (#1129) (Edited)

So what?

So what? So what if he couldn't fly, and should never have held the license he is said to possess?

Besides demonstrating he COULD NOT have flown Flight 77 AT ALL, never mind flying it like a fighter jet, it raises questions as to WHY he was issued that license to begin with.

As pointed out, the commericial license is basically a learner's permit for more advanced flight training, which he failed to complete, skipping class and doing poorly while present.

However, a certain level of skill and ability is expected of one holding such a license, and Hanjour did NOT possess those skills or abilities.

The person who signed off on his FAA exam should be prosecuted for fraud, and/or fired for blatent incompetence and negligence, for starters.

More than likely it was not just an oversight, however, and was knowingly done by operatives in order to create a "legend" (intelligence word for a false background) for Hanjour, building him up to be this highly qualified (or at least SOMEWHAT qualified) individual who could believably have pulled off piloting a 757 from Ohio to Washington, and performing the manuevers that the aircraft was witnessed to have performed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:21:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1134. To: buckeroo (#1115)

What the fuck are you doing? The guy was trained to fly ... and knew instrumentation required to steer the craft where he wanted.

Not according to his instructors. He couldn't navigate, and couldn't do much more than fly a single-engine aircraft straight while already up in the air. I've done that myself when I was 9 years old or so.

From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:32:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1135. To: FormerLurker (#1134)

He went through flight training... he received certification. His later antics on 9/11 PROVE he was far from an expert.

Why are you continuing to dismiss important details.... Hanjour flew AAFLT77 and crash landed the plane into the Pentagon) ... yes, your pal, Stutts doesn't know his ass from a hole in the wall just like yourself.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:36:51 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1136. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#1097)

You're the one who introduced "religious belief" into the discussion thread about challenges to demolition theory," anaerobe.

You can dish it out but can't take it. No surprise from a loser. That's how you all operate.

He can't keep track of the WTC demolition theory ... so he even brings up Hanjour.... making that an issue for a hundred posts (compounded by his circle- jerk friends into about 200 posts) ... and when confronted with facts.... all of a sudden, he nacksteps to another level of discussion ... such as "well, his trainers said dis or dat" ...

This guy FL is a squirmer of continuous BS ....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:44:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1137. To: AGAviator (#1096)

(1) The 9.22 freefall time, (2)The AA cabin door not opening claims, (3) Claims that Hajour couldn't fly and never had a license, (4) Denials that Prof. Steven E. Jones authored "Christ Visited the Mayans," (5) Claims of "molten steel" which was actually burning aluminum and office fire trash, (6) The kinetic energy of the WTC airliner crashes being over 1 giagajoule, (7) Trashing Thomas Eagar without providing any substantive facts on his WTC explanation, his CV, or his patents, (8) The false claim that structures falling at less than near free fall speeds are still CD's when in fact CD companies spend months setting up buildings to make sure they fall straight down as quickly as possible, (9) The statement by Controlled Demoliton President Mark Loziaux that it would simply not be possible for any WTC building to be prepped for CD's without being seen, (9) The back pedaling on a statement by a former CD employee saying he actually does not know what caused the WTC collapses, but he is putting forth scenarios of equipment he believes could have been used, (10) The easily debunked statements about insider trading pre 911, (11) The false claim the WTC building was designed to withstand a 600 mph jet crash when in fact it was designed for a 250 knot air space speed the max allowed where it was located, (12) The idiotic claim that "they" wanted to hit the Pentagon, but only in harmless places - it was all part of the conspiracy to whack New York but not Washington Pentagon chickenhawks, (13) Over 30 phone calls describing hijackers recorded giving seat numbers and hijacker descriptions, (14) "Pull" = "pull down with cables" construction, and = "pull back" fire fighters, (15) Niels Harrit "peer review" = $800 pay to publish Dubai hole in the wall

Excellent track records of the significant points, AG .... my GOD ... then there are the spin-offs... "I didn't tay dat" ... and when confronted with the actual post of their BS .... "U don't no how 2 red."

The shit gets thick on a thread this long.... what is pretty cool... is it is all here.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:48:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1138. To: FormerLurker (#1091)

It's also quite obvious that you BOTH have a fervent religious belief in the "Official 9/11 Faerie Tale ™", and that you both get highly agitated and foam at the mouth whenever anybody posts facts and evidence that contradicts your religous belief in that story.

You dumbfuck.... it is apparent you continue to digress because you were beated to a pulp on your silly, contrived SPAM as a function of conspiracy theories.... now religion is introduced.

Man, can you stay on track? Where is the evidence about the demolitions... not, "I heard did or dat" not, "it is obvious" ... where is fucking evidence?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:52:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1139. To: FormerLurker (#1091)

The only "jerkers" here are you and buck, and I'm sure you're both very close.

Go FUCK YOURSELF, YOU SON_OF_A_BITCH... I anm tired of your BS. Go creep back into your little circle jerk friends and play center point.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   15:54:16 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1140. To: FormerLurker (#1123)

Here's their photo (I'm guessing the one on the right is buck) ..

LOL! They both look completely addled. But, they are keepin' it real...real dumb.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   15:57:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1141. To: FormerLurker (#1130)

The evidence and documentation indicates he was NOT qualified to hold that license.

And the guy who issued it should be prosecuted.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   15:59:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1142. To: buckeroo (#1135)

He went through flight training... he received certification. His later antics on 9/11 PROVE he was far from an expert.

You have it somewhat backwards. His trainers state that he skipped class, and did extremely poorly when he DID attend class. They describe him as a terrible student and even worse pilot, who basically couldn't fly at all.

As far as the manuevers that the alleged Flight 77 performed in its attack on the Pentagon, only a SUPER pilot could have pulled that off, and more than likely only a remote pilot using COMPUTER ASSISTED guidance and control (beyond the NORMAL computer aids that help control the aircraft in flight) could have pulled that off, especially the final approach aspect of the flight.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   15:59:24 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1143. To: abraxas (#1132)

Oh no, honest work is for honest people. I reckon used car salesman, pyramid marketing, selling ponzi schemes, rolling winos or pushing big pharma wares.

Well, I don't believe buck could work "rolling winos" because of professional courtesy but maybe he could do some of that other stuff (when he isn't inventing a new kernel for the net).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   16:00:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1144. To: buckeroo (#1139)

Go FUCK YOURSELF, YOU SON_OF_A_BITCH... I anm tired of your BS. Go creep back into your little circle jerk friends and play center point.

Sorry buck, I'm not familiar with that term, "center point". Can you or your circle mate AGAviator explain that me?

It's pretty well known that you guys both have a lot of experience in "circle jerks".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:01:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1145. To: buckeroo (#1138)

you were beated to a pulp on your silly, contrived SPAM

So FBI reports, witness testimony, news reports, and excerpts from the 9/11 Commission report is "SPAM", while your incessant bloviating and nastiness is the "good stuff", eh?

If anything there buck, you've beaten YOURSELF to a pulp here on this thread.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:04:34 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1146. To: buckeroo (#1137)

Excellent track records of the significant points

More like an excellent example of the lies you and your pal have attempted to perpetrate here on this forum.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:05:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1147. To: abraxas (#1090)

That post is like reading a note taken from a middle school girl.

You would know, wouldn't ya? You haven't introduced one idea on this thread that is worth any merit other than a laff....

You believe in a conspiracy? Where's the PROOF about it? With wud's chemtrails?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:07:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1148. To: buckeroo (#1135)

your pal, Stutts doesn't know his ass from a hole in the wall

Stutts wrote software which performs the task of decompressing and decoding the raw flight recorder data, which is something YOU obviously could NEVER do, Mr. MSEE.

BTW, have you figured out what TCP/IP is yet?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:08:20 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1149. To: wudidiz (#1089)

The liars [referring to AG and myself] think the truthers are stupid.

The only truth you have laid claim to is your hear is up your ass.... with the chemtrails, the FEMA coffins and piles of other shit......

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:09:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1150. To: abraxas (#1083)

I've made several posts, noting the article and the error.

You are lucky to even make a post much less discuss PROOF about your silly notions..... no research, no facts ... just BS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:12:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1151. To: abraxas (#1081)

You [AG] are such a conspiracy theorist, AGABLOWviator.

Oh aren't you clever ... not facts.... other than hot-aire.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:13:41 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1152. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1080)

So I admit I was wrong

FL: you are an idiot... you post without thinking or considering your own posts.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:15:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1153. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#1076)

Just as with the "Hanjour wasn't a pilot" ***gaffe,*** you're gonna get your punk a$$ kicked on this lie too, goober.

FL... has already had his ass kicked on piles of details... all he can respond with NOW ... "oh, his flight instructors didn't think Hanjour was competent."

Now, I know why you call FL a "dickwad" ... it is because he is.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:19:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1154. To: buckeroo (#1152)

you are an idiot... you post without thinking or considering your own posts.

Uh huh. Funny how your pal decided to smear Dr. Steven E. Jones by bringing up his religion, where there IS another Dr. Jones, Dr. Stephen E. Jones, who IS a minister, where the two could easily be confused as the same person.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:20:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1155. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#1068)

You [AG] are a LYING POS FUCKTARD.

It is all too apparent YOU don't know anything.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:21:29 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1156. To: buckeroo (#1151)

Oh aren't you clever ...

Yes, but there's no need to be all envious Buck. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   16:26:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1157. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, ALL (#1153)

FL... has already had his ass kicked on piles of details...

Any remotely sane person would admit that Hanjour was NOT qualified to be a pilot. ALL the evidence and testimony indicates he SHOULD NOT have been issued ANY sort of pilot's license, much less a commericial license.

That he WAS somehow issued that license indicates one of two things;

A) The current procedures in place in terms of FAA exams are shoddy and ill- conceived, where there are a LOT of incompetent pilots up the in air putting the public at risk.

B) The license was NOT earned, and issued to him solely to build up a "legend" of him being a somewhat competent pilot.

He was too incompetent to even rent a single engine Cessna 172, after being "checked out" THREE times by two different flight instructors. Yet you expect people to believe he flew a 757 like an ace pilot, performing manuevers even experienced airline pilots couldn't perform.

Yet he NEVER FLEW ANY SORT OF JET AIRCRAFT prior to his alleged antics aboard Flight 77.

Are you REALLY that stupid buck?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:28:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1158. To: All (#1157)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   16:31:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1159. To: FormerLurker (#1157)

Any remotely sane person would admit that Hanjour was NOT qualified to be a pilot.

But that is NOT the issue you originally posed countless times. You said he wasn't credentialed.... I have proven that you don't no diddly-squat and more than that ... now you have squirmed away into this blather.

You are agreeing with both AG and myself. Look at the way he flew AAFLT77... his antics were not based on anything resembling good methods.

As always, loser... you lose again... search the thread about your own topic... YOU FUCKED UPPED.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:33:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1160. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, all (#1157)

Are you REALLY that stupid buck?

Is that a rhetorical question?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   16:34:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1161. To: Original_Intent (#1160)

You have no FACTS, NO DATA ... just blather.... go back to your BP threads and complain "WE ARE DYING" or some such silly nonsense .....

Come back with facts and links.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-23   16:35:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1162. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, abraxas, AGBloviator, AGAgitator, AGAviator, all (#1159)

Any remotely sane person would admit that Hanjour was NOT qualified to be a pilot.

But that is NOT the issue you originally posed countless times. You said he wasn't credentialed.... I have proven that you don't no diddly-squat and more than that ... now you have squirmed away into this blather.

You are agreeing with both AG and myself. Look at the way he flew AAFLT77... his antics were not based on anything resembling good methods.

As always, loser... you lose again... search the thread about your own topic... YOU FUCKED UPPED.

You are being dishonest again buckie.

You, and AGGravator, have been misrepresenting Hanjour's LEARNER'S PERMIT as a license to BE a commercial pilot, when all it did was give him a license to LEARN to be a commercial pilot UNDER SUPERVISION.

With all the records and testimony we know HE WAS NOT a competent pilot, a point you and AGBloviator keep trying to avoid having to admit.

You are now engaging in another disinformation ploy to attempt to shift the emphasis to something other than the FACT that Hanjour was an incompetent pilot who had never flown anything larger that a four seat twin engine Piper Apache, and HAD NEVER flown ANY kind of jet aircraft.

Now you are attempting to confuse issues further by shifting from he was a wizard of a pilot to only an incompetent would do the kind of maneuvers he performed and yet professional pilots, with many hours of cockpit experience, are saying that the maneuvers took an extremely high degree of professional skill.

So, which one are you going to settle on buck? You have held both positions as it suited at the moment that he was both an Airplane Wizard ready and able to do combat aerobatics with a Jumbo Passenger Liner AND was an incompetent who demonstrated so by performing the exact same maneuvers, which were described by Air Traffic Control as looking like a military jet, as the the wizard.

You are again engaging in disinformation and misrepresenting the data to suit your conclusion not examining the data and reaching an honest conclusion based on what the FACTS tell us.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   16:49:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1163. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#1161)

You have no FACTS, NO DATA ... just blather.... go back to your BP threads and complain "WE ARE DYING" or some such silly nonsense .....

Come back with facts and links.

Uh, buck?

Earth to buck!

Earth to buck!

Do you read me buck?

You are engaging in an Argumentum Ad Hominem again. As we both know that when it is indicated I do post appropriate links, but I am not your research librarian, and I don't need a link to point out that you are engaging in a logical fallacy - again. Although you will note I did post a link to the appropriate logical fallacy.

And here is the appropriate link from Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation:

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   16:55:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1164. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#1160)

I believe he is "catapulting the propaganda." Bush would be SO very proud of him.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-23   16:58:11 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1165. To: James Deffenbach (#1164)

He's definitely catapulting something.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-23   17:01:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1166. To: buckeroo, ALL (#1159)

But that is NOT the issue you originally posed countless times. You said he wasn't credentialed.... I have proven that you don't no diddly-squat and more than that ... now you have squirmed away into this blather.

I never said he wasn't, although I repeatedly QUESTIONED THE VALIDITY of any such credentials, as did his own flight instructors. I asked you to produce a copy of the certificate or license, as he was OBVIOUSLY NOT QUALIFIED to have one.

So ok, you dug and found something, which caused me to look up the name Hani HANJOOR (as appears on his paperwork) rather than the name Hani HANJOUR, which is what is widely reported to be his name.

THAT'S when I found the information I posted on the following thread;

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun : Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

That information proves beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that Hanjour was NOT qualified to fly, and it's beyond ludricrous to claim that he flew Flight 77 in the manner in which it flew.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-23   17:14:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#1167. To: buckeroo (#1150)

I've made several posts, noting the article and the error.

You are lucky to even make a post much less discuss PROOF about your silly notions..... no research, no facts ... just BS.

Let me assist by knocking you up side the head with a clue by four Buck.

I was discussing the article written by Prof. Jones that I had originally questioned if he had actually written it. The several posts were actually indicating that AGABLOWviator was correct that Prof. Jones had written the article in question and that I was in error.

It would be more productive for you to brush up on your reading comprehension, rather than your bitching and complaining.......lol. BS indeed.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-23   17:14:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  



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