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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source: BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
Ping List: *4um PSY-OP Club*     Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*
Keywords: None
Views: 18723
Comments: 1209

An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks.

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition".

The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell.

Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York.

After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001.

This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking").

Resistance to collapse

Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures.

Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts.

"The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website.

Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse.

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

'Fair assumption'

The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

"One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen.

The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings.

The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center.

This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers.

Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble.

Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse.

Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design. Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 194.

#5. To: buckeroo, All (#0)

Who is Barry Jennings ?

'Pull it !' by Larry Silverstein and the WTC 7 singers

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-17   18:00:17 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Rotara, buckeroo, turtle (#5) (Edited)

'Pull it !' by Larry Silverstein and the WTC 7 singers

In the demolition industry, "pull" a building means "pull down with cables," not "explode with explosives."

Silverstein of course, in his phone con with Fire Chief Daniel Nigro, uses "pull" to mean "pull the firefighters back because we've already had a terrible loss of life"

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-17   19:20:55 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: AGAviator (#25)

I slip in with a very quick debunk on this one...

The insurmountable problem with this explanation of Silverstein’s statement is that there were no firefighters inside WTC 7. Dr. Shyam Sunder, of the National Institutes of Standards and Technology (NIST), which investigated the collapse of WTC 7, is quoted in Popular Mechanics (9/11: Debunking the Myths, March, 2005) as saying: “There was no firefighting in WTC 7”. The FEMA report on the collapses, from May, 2002, also says about the WTC 7 collapse: “no manual firefighting operations were taken by FDNY”. And an article by James Glanz in the New York Times on November 29, 2001 says about WTC 7: “By 11:30 a.m., the fire commander in charge of that area, Assistant Chief Frank Fellini, ordered firefighters away from it for safety reasons.”

http://thewebfairy.com/killtown/wtc7/archive/nytimes_112901.html

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   19:26:31 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#26)

"Keep your eye on that building. It'll be coming down...The structural integrity is not there."

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-17   20:04:05 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: AGAviator (#34)

Er, are you simply going to ignore the EXPLOSIONS heard clearly in your own vids? You know, the kind of explosions that occur in controlled demolition right before the buildings fall down.........

Aren't you going to respond to the fact that ol' Larry Silverstein couldn't have meant "pull fire fighters" when there were no fire fighters in the building according to multiple government sources?

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   20:08:00 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#37)

Er, are you simply going to ignore the EXPLOSIONS heard clearly in your own vids?

Not everything that makes a noise is an ***explosion.***

"Explosions" start out by hurling objects in all directions - including upwards - at hundreds to thousands of miles per hour in a huge initial blast cloud, which gets smaller as time goes on.

Events which start with clouds that get bigger, and eject items only sideways or down at less than free fall speeds, don't fall into that category.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-17   22:35:02 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: AGAviator (#61)

Do you mean such as blowing all the windows out on the sub floors of the WTC buildings?

Like these eye witnesses report at this link: www.youtube.com/watch? v=Jcg8hMEmTVE&feature=related

People thought the subway exploded. The janitor saved peoples' lives from these explosions. Are you saying you know more than all of these people who were right there and heard these explosions, saw fireballs emerging from the elevator lobby, watched glass blow out all over the place? People burned ON THE SUBFLOORS with their skin hanging off......tell them it wasn't an explosion coming from the basement.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-17   22:44:57 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, ccritter (#63)

Do you mean such as blowing all the windows out on the sub floors of the WTC buildings?

Show me some blast clouds sending things upwards, not just sideways and downward, at hundreds of MPH initial velocities, not just at speeds not even equalling sideways and downward speeds from gravity.

Then show me those blast clouds starting out big, and themselves expanding in all directions at hundreds of MPH, not clouds barely getting big as fast as dust- driven clouds expand.

Those scenarios would be explosions. Events falling short of these factors are not.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   1:09:39 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: AGAviator (#116)

Did you watch that video? The explosions were in the SUB FLOORS.

Why don't you watch it and explain to me how the eye witnesses are wrong and you are right.

They even talk about those dastardly blast clouds........burning their flesh and blowing them many feet away from where they were prior to the f'n explosions.

Shit, if you can't even watch the f'n video where the eye witnesses will tell you exactly what you are asking of me, then you are hopeless and you really don't want any answers to the questions you pose.

The witnesses clearly articulate AN EXPLOSION.......watch for yourself or shut your pie hole.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   1:14:15 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, Original_Indent (#117)

Why don't you watch it and explain to me how the eye witnesses are wrong and you are right.

Your eyewitnesses link what they call "explosions" and "fireballs" with an airplane hitting the WTC at that exact same moment in time.

With the damage going through the building core. And branching out at various elevator and stairwell locations.

So you wanna say the eyewitnesses are right? Fine with me. The eyewitnesses say the blasts they're commenting on are the direct results of the airplane crash. Other than that, they have more unanswered comments, where they express not knowing what caused what they experienced, than they have observations or answers.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   2:21:13 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: AGAviator (#126)

It is extremely dishonest to ignore the multiple witnesses who said very clearly that the explosions were on the SUB FLOORS of the building. You ignore the janitor who saved peoples' lives and was an eye witness to explosions in the parking garages and where the generators were kept.

How can you simply lie like that on a public forum? As if others won't notice that your are blatantly dishonest. What a dork!!

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   2:48:06 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: abraxas (#127)

It is extremely dishonest to ignore the multiple witnesses who said very clearly that the explosions were on the SUB FLOORS of the building

It is extremely dishonest to say that the eyewitnesses in your own video directly link whatever they call explosions with an aircraft crashing into the building and having the results of that crash go down through the core column, the elevator shafts, and the stairwells.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   11:48:10 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: AGAviator (#136)

They discuss explosions at the time of initial plane impact and prior to the buildings collapsing........you are the only one cherry picking content to fit your story telling.

The explosions prior to the collapse, with people running away and describing said explosions are completely ignored by you because they don't fit with the story you are trying to pawn off on the lot of us.

The information I presented discusses multiple explosions at various times, you are the only one opting to cling to one explosion and ignore all the others. Very dishonest......and you know it.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   12:09:14 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: abraxas, buckeroo, (#138)

They discuss explosions at the time of initial plane impact and prior to the buildings collapsing........you are the only one cherry picking content to fit your story telling.

There were no explosions reported prior to aircraft impacts. Not on your posted, not on anybody else's other statements anywhere.

So now you have two sets of phenomena to explain, (1) Why explosions reported immediately after the aircraft crashes are not caused by the aircraft crashes, and (2) Why and how the explosions reported immediately after the aircraft crashes did take place with methods and means not at all connected to those crashes.

These explanations have not been done over the last 8 1/2 years in spite of thousands of claims made on hundreds or thousands of internet sites. Yet the people pushing these claims still claim after all this time that they are the ones with the truth and anybody who challenges their unproven versions of events is on the side of their imagined enemy, an all-powerful government that can't even manage its own wars and administration but nevertheless has been able to flawlessly pull off the most complex conspiracy in world history.

Now that's what's dishonest.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   12:54:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: AGAviator (#142)

I'm not interested in your dishonesty about the contents of the video. I know what the WITNESSES stated.......only you think you know more about what they witnessed despite being far, far away.

There has always been this unexplained EXPLOSION phenomenon, since 9-11-2001. However,the government story you cling to with ALL YOUR MIGHT ignores these people, especially that janitor at the end of the video who saved peoples' lives from the EXPLOSIONS in the sub floor areas prior to collapse.

YOU, nowhere near the buildings (kissing government ass in another state I suspect), claim that YOU know more about these explosions that frickin' EYE WITNESSES and people who WORKED in the buildings and people who SAVED LIVES on that day. YOU and the government can IGNORE them, but that only discredits your official bullshit story more.

You run along and tell these people who were there that they are full of shit and only YOU know the truth of the matter. I know, not only are you a liar but you are also a coward who wouldn't say word one to them if you had them front and center, but it's real easy to talk shit about what they witnessed from such a distance.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   15:53:33 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#146) (Edited)

YOU, nowhere near the buildings (kissing government ass in another state I suspect), claim that YOU know more about these explosions that frickin' EYE WITNESSES and people who WORKED in the buildings and people who SAVED LIVES on that day. YOU and the government can IGNORE them, but that only discredits your official bullshit story more.

What a delusional flockwit you are, to claim that people present at the crashes don't say that airplanes crashed into the buildings and aircraft collision caused their subsequent collapse.

Name EYE WITNESSES who SAVED LIVES who don't claim that AIRCRAFT CRASHES caused the Twin Towers to come down.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   17:43:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: AGAviator, buckaroo (#166)

The janitor in the main tower discusses the explosions. We were discussing the EXPLOSIONS........

Nobody was talking about the airplanes crashing into the buildings, other than you in an attempt to divert, distract and blow smoke up Buck's ass and wait naked and giggling like a school girl for him to return the favor. Buck just loves to have your nose deep between his butt cheeks and you love the view. What's next a blow job for Buckie on this thread--you sure are on your knees enough for that to be the next logical progression in your relationship with Buck.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   18:03:28 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: abraxas (#170)

Nobody was talking about the airplanes crashing into the buildings, other than you in an attempt to divert, distract and blow smoke up Buck's ass and wait naked and giggling like a school girl for him to return the favor.

This thread is about the demolition theory of the WTC. Check my early thread postings and all my later references to include theoretical calculations (provided in links) from non-government personnel AND (I might add) to include hotlinks to the NIST reports for your viewing pleasure.

Now, you are talking about my ass? How strange and fanciful......

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   18:14:45 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: buckeroo, AGAbloviator (#173)

Now, you are talking about my ass? How strange and fanciful......

Nah, just noting AGAbloviators skill at kissing and blowing smoke up your ass. It's really not much of a compliment......I think he'd drop to his knees on a dime for just about anybody who pays him the least bit of attention. I find it comical to watch your ego expand over a couple of remarks from a two bit whore.

Strange and fanciful indeed.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   18:21:36 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#174)

You obviously have your mind made up with pre-existing opinions. Now you are damning AG who is pilot.

I can't argue for AG's opinions anymore than yours. AG doesn't agree with me on many things so it is wrong of you to think or consider or even post the comment you intentionally performed within this venue.

For this thread: we are discussing the demolition theory of the WTC. Can you add, subtract or multipy and divide on that same theory without attempting to become emotional or defensive? It will be helpful. And I thank you for serious research.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   18:32:38 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: buckeroo (#176)

Now you are damning AG who is pilot.

Sure he is. And I'm a Angelina Jolie when I'm not posting here at 4um.

The EXPLOSIONS are a direct correlation to the domolition theory, Einstein. Why is this SO difficult for you to grasp?

What would be helpful is you're pulling your nose out of AGAbloviator's butt long enough to keep on topic. : )

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   20:09:21 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: abraxas (#182)

The EXPLOSIONS are a direct correlation to the domolition theory, Einstein.

But you seem to deny the issue about the downward collapse pushing aire into the lower levels which is a serious fundamental attribute that seems to create "explosions" because of both the over-all pressure pushing glass out the building and associated acoustic characteristics.

Remember, sometimes what "appears" is not "reality."

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   20:17:03 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: buckeroo (#184)

Remember, sometimes what "appears" is not "reality."

How can I forget? I have a constant reminder every single time I read one of your posts.

There is very little "reality" in what "appears" to be the government accounting of events on 911. Hence, it is very difficult for me to take your favorite source with more than a grain of salt.

When did this "downward collapse" begin ?. You DO realize that people were making their way out of the buildings during this time frame. What I saw wasn't a slow collapse of the towers that went on for two or four hours. When it went, it went fast. Yet, witnesses claim explosions on the sub floors just as or just prior to the planes hitting the buildings. Of course, you like to ignore these eye witness accounts because you and AGAbloviator know FAR more than any person who was actually there.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   20:23:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: abraxas (#186)

There is very little "reality" in what "appears" to be the government accounting of events on 911.

Have you actually read a government report?

When did this "downward collapse" begin ?

Not long after the initial jet aircraft strike. Yes, both buildings collapsed separately with different overall longevity. But that is because they were struck differentially and at different levels of the buildings.

Of course, you like to ignore these eye witness accounts

That isn't a fair assessment at all.

When it went, it went fast.

The central cores weakened by the impact and into the upper 1/3rd of the support beams and structures, physically rendered the capacity of resisting the mammoth force beyond design criteria.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   20:34:09 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: buckeroo (#190)

I read the ENTIRE 911 OMISSION report Buck.....you know that one that doesn't even mention WT7 falling into its own foot print. It's boring and mostly bovine excrement--have you read it?

Why isn't that a fair assessment? You chime in on what the eye witnesses "really" saw and what they "really" meant and what they "really" think ad nauseum.

Oh, yeah that "Magical Jetfuel" that doesn't burn off hot and fast when it hits oxygen worked like a forge.........in open air. Ever tried to get enough heat to bend metal in an open oxygen area? Doesn't work, which is why people use FORGES and it literally takes HOURS to weaken the steal in an oxygen reduced, red hot furnace.

Without a forge, the weight load of the building wasn't enough to cut that steal in half and allow the building to fall......especially not in ALL those floors that had no magical jet fuel to speak of.

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   20:43:37 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: abraxas (#193) (Edited)

I read the ENTIRE 911 OMISSION report

Why is your simple opinion coincident to Griffin's?

Here he is (at least I present an opposing opinion to the thread that I presented) ....

[edit: notice his chalkboard is erased and as a FULL PROFESSOR you would think he would deliver some sort of simple calculation or idea or concept or dialogue BUT NO ... ]

And here is PART 2 from Griffin ...

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   20:50:08 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 194.

#213. To: buckeroo (#194)

Well, Buck, just goes to show that you know more about Mr. Griffin than I do. I like the work of physics professor Jones. Have you read his peer reviewed papers on this topic, nano thernmite, in particular?

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18 23:31:54 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 194.

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