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Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source:
BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
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Keywords: None
Views: 18378
Comments: 1209
An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks. The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total. One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition". The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell. Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York. After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001. This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking"). Resistance to collapse Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures. Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts. "The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website. Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse. His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down. This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground. 'Fair assumption' The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell". "One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen. The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings. The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center. This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers. Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble. Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse. Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design.
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#403. To: buckeroo (#371)
The TEENIEST little fact is found in the NANO THERMITE found withint the WTC debris. That's a nano fact..... Read all about it in Professor Steven E. Jones' peer reviewed paper.....here's a little taste: Iron-rich sphere, found in the dust of the World Trade Center, as documented by the United States Geological Survey and RJ LeeGroup, Inc. As noted by RJ Lee in its report, the iron-rich spheres, which are a common component of the WTC dust, are indicative of molten iron, which forms the spheres due to surface tension. The spheres are of interest to the 9/11 Truth movement in its study of the WTC building failures, as they are indicative of the presence of temperatures much hotter than office fires, and they are also a common end product of thermitic reactions, as discussed in the paper 'Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe', by Niels H. Harrit, et. al. The paper describes how nano-scale thermitic material can be chemically tailored to function as an explosive, and it illustrates how iron-rich spheres are an end product from the ignition of thermitic materials. According to Steven Jones, a co-author of the "Active Thermitic Material" paper and a leading figure in the 9/11 Truth movement, NIST did not look for evidence of explosive residue.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
But anyone who would take the word of people who love the government so much "ain't quite right." Know what I mean?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. That is an appeal to authority which is one of the logical fallacies. It has no evidenciary weight Bull$hit again. You lie as easily as you breathe. The only false argument being made is your own ad hominem Eagar has made specific physics and engineering based statements regarding the WTC collapses. When you say he's lying without offering any proof, you're saying you know more about physics and engineering than he does. Not only are you unable to rebut any of Eagar's physics and engineering statements about the WTC collapses, you're unable to rebut any of his entire body of published and patented work produced throughout his decades-long career. On one hand we have a physics and engineering professional who is known worldwide for his demonstrated accomplishments. On the other we have an anonymous internet k00kster, hiding under a cyber rock, calling the professional a liar, but completely unable to rebut either his statements on the subject at hand, or any other of the voluminous work the professional has done over decades. You're an anonymous coward, a liar, and a loser.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Time to take your six shooters home lil buckeroo, your mama's callin. Where is at least one teeny, weenie, little ittsy-bitsy, tiny fact supporting any demolitions were used?
#404. To: FormerLurker (#401)
Yeah, but AGovShill and buck ensure us that he could, just because they say so.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#405. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#392)
I could give a rat's behind how many patents or papers Eager has or has published.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#406. To: buckeroo (#402)
Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY
#407. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#390)
Wrong. Several carriers at the time have gone on record saying they were possible especially over non-urban areas, though with spotty service and subject to cutoffs. However there were not any such problems with satellite phone calls from the aircraft, which a number of receivers classifed as "cell phone" calls.
Yea, and those cell phone calls were impossible back in 2001, while at cruising altitude and speed.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#408. To: abraxas (#403)
Here is another way to see your idea is dispelled: Clearly the BLDGS buckled under the weight of the upper floors. Your reference to nano-thermite is ludicrous... link, please.
The TEENIEST little fact is found in the NANO THERMITE found withint the WTC debris.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#409. To: Critter (#406)
LOL! Thanks for the laugh. I needed that.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#410. To: buckeroo (#408)
Why should ANYONE post any links for you? So you can go and take stuff out of context and pretend it says the opposite of what it actually says?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#411. To: AGAviator (#407)
What was the probability?
saying they were possible
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#412. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator, ALL (#410)
Jimmy, I just want you to bow before our esteemed 9/11 audience because of your diligence in helping the thread hypothesis along with both me and AG. You are awesome!
you can go and take stuff out of context and pretend it says the opposite of what it actually says?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#413. To: Critter (#406)
That's funny, Jim. Still you have no evidence, supporting data, a single factoid, a witness, evidence, other than mere speculation, rumour, gossip, silly web-sites, pseudo-scientists, innuendo, redundant regurgitation of the aforementioned same ... to dispel the government official story or otherwise show that explosives or demolition was intentionally set on 9/11. You can do better than posting a silly picture of a caricature about yourself within your own mind's eye.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#414. To: buckeroo (#412)
Due to your shilling, continual lying, taking stuff out of context and trying to make it appear that I in any way agree with you and Aggravator, it's off to the clown filter for you. Adios.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#415. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#414)
I guess you don't understand what you performed by agreeing with the structural design by using the original design team references about the towers. Please come back and take a bow on this thread! Thank you in advance as always!
Due to your shilling, continual lying, taking stuff out of context and trying to make it appear that I in any way agree with you and Aggravator, it's off to the clown filter for you. Adios.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#416. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, IRTorqued, Kamala, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#405)
That is an appeal to authority which is one of the logical fallacies. It has no evidenciary weight Bull$hit again. You lie as easily as you breathe. The only false argument being made is your own ad hominem Eagar has made specific physics and engineering based statements regarding the WTC collapses. When you say he's lying without offering any proof, you're saying you know more about physics and engineering than he does. Not only are you unable to rebut any of Eagar's physics and engineering statements about the WTC collapses, you're unable to rebut any of his entire body of published and patented work produced throughout his decades-long career. On one hand we have a physics and engineering professional who is known worldwide for his demonstrated accomplishments. On the other we have an anonymous internet k00kster, hiding under a cyber rock, calling the professional a liar, but completely unable to rebut either his statements on the subject at hand, or any other of the voluminous work the professional has done over decades. You're an anonymous coward, a liar, and a loser. Not at all. My attack was not against the person i.e., I did not make the point as resting solely on my dislike of Eagar. My main points were: 1. There are no other academics of comparable stature that are supporting him in his defense of the Official Conspiracy Theory™, and neither does he substantiate his opinion in facts, figures, and known Physical Laws. In fact Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth boasts somewhere in the vicinity of 1,200 members who do not believe Dr. Eagar's unsupported pronouncements. Which I will add does not prove any of the issues we have discussed one way or the other. However, their website carries a substantial body of information which flies direct in the face of Eagar's pronouncements. Dr. Eagar, like NIST, dictates his opinion on authority not fact. Here's a letter and comment by Christopher Bollyn: Date: April 21, 2006 Provo, Utah To: Thomas W. Eagar tweagar@MIT.EDU Department of Materials Science and Engineering Massachusetts Institute of Technology From: Christopher Bollyn, American Free Press Re: Professor Steven E. Jones Paper on Molten Metal at World Trade Center "Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?" http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html Dear Professor Eagar, I was quite shocked when you refused to read the scientific paper by Professor Steven E. Jones of BYU dealing with the unanswered questions about the large amounts of molten metal that were seen cascading from the 81st floor of South Tower of the World Trade Center immediately before it began to collapse. I was equally amazed when you said that there was no evidence of molten metal flowing from the 81st floor of the South Tower prior to the collapse and that this is some sort of hearsay. And I was most disappointed when you suddenly hung up the phone on me. Why are you unwilling to discuss the evidence of molten metal at the World Trade Center - before and after the "collapses?" It certainly appears that you were unable to answer my questions and decided to run away. What do you call these attached photos showing molten metal cascading from the South Tower? Fakes? (Note that Prof. Jones proves that this is not aluminum as some of the reports suggest. Molten aluminum is silver-gray in daylight.) Why do you refuse to review the paper by Prof. Steven E. Jones of Brigham Young University about the molten metal found at the World Trade Center, before and after the collapses? Professor Jones' webpage is here: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/ His paper on the molten metal is here: http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html His research is the natural scientific investigation and follow-up of the unanswered questions, which are raised by the evidence and presented in the FEMA and NIST studies, serious scientific problems which these agencies clearly said required further study. What kind of scientist are you anyway? Rather than running from the research of Professor Jones, you should welcome and embrace such efforts to answer the questions of 9-11. As Jones says, "The data stands on its own." What is this seriously-flawed "official version" of 9-11, which you seem to support, a religious myth that cannot be challenged? Signed, Christopher Bollyn American Free Press Washington, D.C. Photo: This photo from the NE corner of the South Tower shows a cascade of molten metal flowing from the 80th or 81st floor immediately prior to the collapse of the building. Professor Eagar has written about the fires at the World Trade Center, (see - http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html) in which he states: "However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range. All reports that the steel melted at 1,500°C are using imprecise terminology at best. "Some reports," Eagar wrote, "suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot." Well, Mr. Eagar, what are we seeing here? End of Article -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. I refuted and showed how your appeal to authority was logically false. P.S.: "Mr. Good bar says: Go Fuck Yourself. Do it today."
I could give a rat's behind how many patents or papers Eager has or has published.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#417. To: Original_Intent (#416)
Your hotlink to Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth needs to be changed because it references this chit-chat channel. Here is the REAL link: www.ae911truth.org/ Now, you mention all the members as though they are actually credentialed ... how do you know.... are you the president or some lofty member that scrutinizes the background of a login poster?
In fact Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth boasts somewhere in the vicinity of 1,200 members who do not believe Dr. Eagar's unsupported pronouncements.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#418. To: buckeroo (#408) (Edited)
Really? Where's the buckling in the above image buck? There is total, complete, symmetric, and sudden collapse, as if there WERE nothing between the bottom red line and the falling upper structure. It's like the internal core columns and external columns magically disappeared, all at once. Not just the floors that were damaged suffered total and sudden collapse, as if they weren't there at all, but the section of the upper tower between the two red lines appears to disappear and collapse as well, resulting in a black puff of smoke. Now that I look at it closer, apparent the uppermost floor suffer the same fate. Buckling my ass.
Clearly the BLDGS buckled under the weight of the upper floors.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#419. To: AGAviator (#407)
And which flights actually had airphones onboard?
However there were not any such problems with satellite phone calls from the aircraft, which a number of receivers classifed as "cell phone" calls.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#420. To: buckeroo (#400)
Ah, that's why the towers fell, they were just made of gypsum board, no steel, no concrete, just gypsum. Oh thanks buck, maybe that explains the following collapse video...
I guess you don't know how gypsum wall board is easily crushed; tons of gypsum was pulverized that day due to mammoth heat and pressures exerted.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#421. To: FormerLurker (#418)
Oh it fell down all by itself? Or with an explosive charge? Yet, at precisely where the plane struck, the building BUCKLED..... of course your ass wasn't there that day to buckle it. We know, because it is self evident that you are here today.
Buckling my ass.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#422. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#416) (Edited)
Well, Mr. Eagar, what are we seeing here? End of Article We are seeing melted aluminum, which becomes liquid around 500 Degrees Centigrade. Aluminum furthermore has distinct color ranges associated with distinct temperature ranges. We are not seeing burning aluminum, which combusts at thousands of degrees Centigrade, or melted steel which also requires substantially over a thousand degrees Centigrade. Christopher Bollyn in his zeal to try to one up Dr. Eagar, fails to distinguish between a melting substance and a burning one. There is nothing inconsistent in Eagar's account with the photos of melted metal coming around the 81st floors. Bollyn as usual for CT'ers is an ignorant rube trying to score rhetorical points instead of researching facts.
"Some reports," Eagar wrote, "suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot."
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#423. To: buckeroo (#421)
Explain why all four corners of the damaged section decided to give way simultaneously, along with the internal core, and the external vertical columns. Explain why the floors directly inbetween the roof and the damaged floors ALSO simultaneously failed in all quadrants, and why the upper floors nearest the roof ALSO failed in all quadrants.
Yet, at precisely where the plane struck, the building BUCKLED.....
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#424. To: AGAviator (#422)
We are seeing melted aluminum, which becomes liquid around 500 Degrees Centigrade.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#425. To: AGAviator (#422)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#426. To: FormerLurker (#423)
Comparatively the inner core of the building held up the entire structure not the outer paper thin skeleton.
Explain why all four corners of the damaged section decided to give way simultaneously, along with the internal core, and the external vertical columns.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
#427. To: buckeroo (#400)
Oh crap, Buck, you were four huuuunnnnnnnneeeeerrrrrrrrttttt too.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#428. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#424) (Edited)
Molten metal found at the bottom of the debris piles, after several weeks of spraying water onto heated iron, producing an exothermic reaction known in the 1800's, does not count. The discussion is supposed to be about molten metal pre collapse coming from the vicinity of the 80th floor.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#429. To: buckeroo (#408)
Er, that doesn't exlain how thermite residue found it's way into the debris. Why would the lower floors buckle under the weight that they had been made to carry? Unless, of course, the 24 steal columns were severed, allowing the weight to cause collapse. Here's your link, although you won't read it: www.bentham- open.org/pages/content.php? TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM The Open Chemical Physics Journal Volume 2 ISSN: 1874-4125 Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe pp.7-31 (25) Authors: Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley, Bradley R. Larsen doi: 10.2174/1874412500902010007
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#430. To: buckeroo (#426) (Edited)
Yet there WERE external columns across all 4 walls, yet they seemingly disappear all at the same instant in time, on at least 3 different floors, the top floors, the floors between the top and the damaged section, and the damaged section itself. Two of those floors weren't even damaged. How did they all disappear at once I wonder, along with total immediate failure of the inner multi-column core in 3 different locations, all at the same time...
Comparatively the inner core of the building held up the entire structure not the outer paper thin skeleton.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#431. To: AGAviator (#377)
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#432. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Critter, abraxas, all (#422)
There absolutely is - the color is wrong for aluminum and right for steel. Molten aluminum is silver not red orange. And you and Eagar can pound the table all day long and it does not change that FACT. It is dishonest to say so and a Professor of "Materials Science" knows better. For a detailed analysis read: www.journalof911studies.c...ngsCompletelyCollapse.pdf While I cannot cite conclusive evidence - thermite/thermate melts steel. Nanothermites painted over a section of steel would be perfectly capable of turning it into a molten state. Hydrocarbon fires do not generate sufficient heat to melt steel. Neither do office fires which are mostly Class Alpha - wood and paper (although synthetic carpet would be made from petrochemicals and thus would be Class Bravo). Regardless the two types of fuel posited are jet fuel and wood/paper do not get hot enough to melt either. Particularly in an oxygen starved fire as evidenced by the heavy black soot.
Christopher Bollyn in his zeal to try to one up Dr. Eagar, fails to distinguish between a melting substance and a burning one. There is nothing inconsistent in Eagar's account with the photos of melted metal coming around the 81st floors.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#433. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, all (#428)
Yawn. Steel is not iron. It is an alloy of iron and other metals. As well your red herring does not explain how, 8 weeks after 911, the steel was still hot enough to generate your red herring.
The discussion is supposed to be about molten metal pre collapse coming from the vicinity of the 80th floor.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
#434. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#432) (Edited)
Debunking Molten Steel Myth Note the color of the substance as it cools and solidifies toward the end of its journey. Molten steel would turn almost black. One thing it's not, and that's black. Jones writes: "This is a point worth emphasizing: aluminum has low emissivity and high reflectivity, so that in daylight conditions molten aluminum will appear silvery-gray" I think at a cooler temperature, he's right. What's telling about this photo isn't that it's proof of the substance being aluminum, It's that it's a zoom and crop of the photo from Jones own paper. (Time for him to change yet another one of his photos.) Below is a screenshot from National Geographic's "Inside 911". The droplets on the outside of the center of the fall seem to be the color of aluminum siding to me.. As I said, the evidence points to it being aluminum. Below is a message from Stephen D. Chastain of Metal Talk. Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten flow The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and "Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?" First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow. I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F [To convert to C use this link] Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials." If the approximate melting temperature of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live load calculations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F. Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange? The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum. The emissivity of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum. The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8 Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible. Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relative to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered considerable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you don't believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up. The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similar and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them. THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron. Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling. I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likely. Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the melting temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color. Stephen D. Chastain The color means nothing. The color can be misleading, and because it can be misleading, it means nothing as evidence. This is not aluminum in a foundry which hasn't mixed with anything. This is a cocktailOne of the pieces of evidence Jones points to is a snapshot of the flow falling down the side the building. This pyrotechnic show seems ominous, that is until you look at it closely...
from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#435. To: FormerLurker (#431)
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#436. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#433)
As well your red herring does not explain how, 8 weeks after 911, the steel was still hot enough
Steel is not iron. It is an alloy of iron and other metals.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#437. To: AGAviator, *9-11*, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, abraxas, James Deffenbach, all (#436) (Edited)
Never in a million years will you win this argument. (Only 14 seconds) 9/11 firefighters recall the molten steel at the WTC
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#438. To: All, *9-11* (#437) (Edited)
Exhibit "B" (Only 11 seconds) A firefighter describes the heat under the rubble of Ground Zero, which is sufficient to melt boots.
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#439. To: All, *9-11*, *4um PSY-OP Club* (#438) (Edited)
Red hot pools of molten steel (Only 35 seconds long) WTC workers describe pools of molten steel at Ground Zero
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#440. To: AGAviator (#434)
Stephen D. Chastain is a nobody who is attempting to sell his wares............lol. Here he is denying the light specttrum that far greater minds have held firm to for centuries. Yeah, Stephen D. Chastain is YOUR man.........hahahahahahahahaha
Stephen D. Chastain The color means nothing. The color can be misleading, and because it can be misleading, it means nothing as evidence.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
#441. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#439) (Edited)
Not shown to be steel, which melts at over 1600 degrees C, and not shown to be melted - all that's visible is gray smoke coming from a solid trash pile. From the video Red hot"Red hot pools of molten steel
"See that stuff he's pulling out?
Not "melted," "red hot."
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#442. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#440)
Light spectra do not have same properties for ad hoc mixtures of various substances as they do for pure elements. The WTC crash sites were places where many different kinds of substances were mixed together and burned. They cannot be expected to conform to rules and spectra charts made for individual highly purified elements.
Here he is denying the light specttrum that far greater minds have held firm to for centuries.
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#443. To: AGAviator (#434)
I would assume THEREFORE I assume I would expect I would also suggest Assuming that THEREFORE assuming I would expect How many times does this Stephen D. Chastain need to repeat, "I assume" before you catch on to the fact that he's making an ASS out of YOU and any other warm body who is willing to waste time listening to him? OMG, this is the "expert" you are banking your debunking upon.......lol. Hahahahahahahaha........you're frickin' killin' me. Oh yeah, he asumes and expects.......what a find you have in this guys contribution to the color spectrum of various metals burning.
It appears
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
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