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Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source:
BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
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Keywords: None
Views: 19423
Comments: 1209
An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks. The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total. One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition". The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell. Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York. After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001. This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking"). Resistance to collapse Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures. Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts. "The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website. Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse. His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down. This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground. 'Fair assumption' The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell". "One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen. The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings. The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center. This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers. Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble. Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse. Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design.
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#451. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#443)
Unlike Tw00fsters, Chastain does not make blanket statements about trash piles glowing orange being melted steel. He gets his facts first, and puts his conclusions last, which is the way it should be. First of all steel and other metals give precisely measured wave lengths. Not just a particular color, but a particular wave length of a particular color. This was not done. Nor were additional wave lengths of particular colors noted. Also the chemical components were not analyzed. A pile of trash burning orange does not equal pure steel melting and giving off orange.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings. Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who can find the facts amid all of his speculating and assuming? His conclusion is based on his assumptions, not any facts.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings. Take-offs and landings in a Cessna are relatively easy, with the take-off being such that just about ANYONE could do it. Flying is the relatively easy part. Hanjour couldn't do any of the above even in a Cessna, never mind a heavy multi-engine airliner with all of the complex systems that need to be set correctly. We are supposed to believe however that he brought the plane down from 35,000 feet to treetop level at 400+ mph, then performed a manuever not any professional pilot could pulloff, and that is to descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph (which is basically performing a landing), defying the laws of aerodynamics (in terms of ground effect), flying straight and level directly into the Pentagon wall. Yeah right. Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed. Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).
And when did this amazing transformation happen and what could have caused it? Playing around and getting drunk in nudie bars? Did that transform him into an ace pilot? I see aggravator is still "catapulting the propaganda." Must have taken some training in Dubya's school for liars.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Maybe he read about it in a book that he found on eBay called, "how to fly an airliner better than a pro".
Reckon he got the last copy? I would like to get one of those. Learn how to fly my big plane 500 mph 20 feet over my Pentalawn and not scuff it up. Yeah, that's the ticket! If you find that any of those are still available let me know.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. You could put it on a wish list on eBay or Amazon... LOL
Once again, you mindlessly parrot bull$hit from ko00ksites, try to pass it off as truth, and call anybody who disagrees with your $hitpile a liar and a government agent. Hanjour actually got a commercial pilot license in 1999 but was unable to get a job. However in 2001 he was showing problems. At the same time he was taking advanced simulator training, so he knew his way around the school enough to put in a spotty performance. Again, takeoffs and landings are by far the most difficult parts of flight trainings. Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling. Furthermore the Pentagon crash itself shows an inexperirenced pilot. The wings were rocking on the final approach, and he went in to the back of the building because the plane got away from him when he tried to hit the Potomac-facing north face of the building which was where the high value target offices including Rumsfeld's were. The Pentagon hit had little or no destructive value as far as harming the US interests. Haji Hanjour ... However, in January 2001, Arizona JetTech flight school managers reported him to the FAA at least five times because his English was inadequate for the commercial pilot’s certificate he had already obtained. It took him five hours to complete an oral exam meant to last just two hours, said Peggy Chevrette. Hanjour failed UA English classes with a 0.26 GPA and a JetTech manager said “He could not fly at all.” His FAA certificate had become invalid late in 1999 when he failed to take a mandatory medical examination. In February, Hanjour began advanced simulator training in Mesa Arizona Hanjour continued with simulator training because that was where he could practice flying an airplane already airborne and crashing it into a target on a preplanned route, and not have to bother with the other parts of flying including speaking English he could not care less about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That would be funny, wouldn't it? How would you word it? Something like "I want a copy of the book that turned an idiot who couldn't fly a Cessna into an ace pilot who could fly heavy commercial airliners in one easy lesson. This while getting wasted in a nudie bar. Will pay top dollar." What you reckon?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways. What don't you understand here?
From the New York Times Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. "I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon," the former employee said. He could not fly at all." Bullshit. He was heading straight for the side of the Pentagon containing high ranking officers' offices, including Rumsfeld's office, THEN banked at 400 mph and turned the plane towards the other side of the Pentagon, while descending, then leveled off and headed for the Pentagon at treetop level for about a mile at 400+ mph, accelerating to 530 mph till impact.
Ohio? Why are you bringing up FLT77 on this thread? Don't you remember your "cabin door" thread of FLT77? American Airlines Flight 77 is the plane that is commonly believed to have crashed into the Pentagon. It was a Boeing 757-223 on a scheduled flight from Dulles to Los Angeles, with 58 passengers, four flight attendants, and two pilots. "we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Your pal AGovShill posted about it, bitch at him. The autopilot was engaged and disengaged multiple times Are you aware of the fact you have to PROGRAM the flight computer for the autopilot to know where to go? Are you aware of the fact YOU HAVE TO KNOW WHERE YOU ARE FIRST in order to do that? Are you aware of the fact it's practically IMPOSSIBLE to land a 757 at 530 mph, yet this "pilot" who couldn't fly AT ALL according to his instructors was able to pull it off ON THE PENTAGON LAWN, without so much as disturbing a blade of grass, then impacting the Pentagon wall straight on?
He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways. What don't you understand here? LOL! He couldn't take off and land BUT he could actually navigate a 757 from somewhere over the skies of Ohio (at a high altitude, so high that everything on the ground, assuming he could even see the ground, all looked pretty much the same) back to DC, do tricks with it that most professionals couldn't do, 20 feet off the ground in excess of 500 mph. I wonder about how many bowls of Stupid-O's Aggravator and buck would eat in a week.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Actually, there were large fragments (I think extending 20 floors high, I will check) of the central structure immediately after the collapse.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Yes, Ohio. Your image is a graphic from USA Today, not the NTSB. The NTSB produced the following image depicting the flight path. Here's the full NTSB report in PDF format. Flight Path Study-American Airlines Flight 77 [PDF] Besides, does it matter if he crossed from the western edge of West Virginia into Ohio, or simply turned around prior to crossing the border? No, of course it doesn't, he STILL had to navigate the aircraft without any visual cues.
You are trying to take the thread topic (WTC demolition(s)) off topic because you can't get your own story straight .... just like FLT77 was flown from OHIO? C'mon.... stay on track as opposed to intentionally spinning FACTUALLY incorrect and silly speculative conclusions around? Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC? Refute the main article instead of dancing around the subject.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Well excuse me if I wasn't precise enough for you. I should have said "6 seconds to break and smash practically every supporting piece of the structure is not enough time to do so. "
Enough to cause permanent brain damage apparently...
Hey stupid, stop grabbing graphics from your pals, and perhaps you can find a real one from the NTSB, like I provided to you, which DOES show the flight path to extend into Ohio. It's been reported in more than a few places that Flight 77 passed over Ohio, try looking things up before you make a bigger ass of yourself.
Where is the raw data that explains how a 757 practically landed (with wheels up, and not touching the ground) on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph without so much as disturbing a blade of grass and smashed straight into the Pentagon wall.
AG only referenced FLT77 @post#251 because it was a single numerated item in the body of his post containing many others documenting the errors of your research. Re-evaluate it for yourself.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
I have read that he supposedly hijacked the plane over the skies of Ohio in more than one source.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Go sob to your boyfriend, I really don't care.
It's a hoot how buck views himself as an expert on all this, tries to claim that I'M the one who's wrong and that I've been sloppy and can't get my facts straight, yet he doesn't even know what's right out there in full view and published in main stream news articles, BESIDES the US government reports.
You can't stay on topic... you continue to obfuscate the thread into other topics because you can't answer a single question with a simple or complex answer. And this thread title is about the demolition theory concerning the WTC.... not FLT77 cabin doors.... you already lost your thread about some "researcher" not knowing his ass from a hole in the ground.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
You ask for information that is unavailable, not because it doesn't exist, but because of the fact that the evidence was destroyed and shipped off the China. I've presented facts that support what I claim, and have already listed them here on this thread. You have provided NOTHING, you dance, jump up and down, make false claims, and basically make an ass of yourself. Of COURSE you can't explain how the 757 came down to 20 feet off the lawn at 530 mph, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for it to have happened IF it WERE in fact a 757, ESPECIALLY one flown by an inept individual who "couldn't fly at all". Physical impossibilities can be explained as possible to those who believe in magical faery tales, which you apparently are quite fond of there Mr. Buckeroo. I'm surprised you can't think of a good one in regards to the 757.
I wanted to bring this two part article to everyone's attention. I am sure everyone has noticed that I have stressed over and over again that 911 is best understood as a Psychological Operation or PsyOp for short (despite the Army doing a PR change on their PsyOp department's name). THE SPLIT-SECOND ERROR...EXPOSING THE WTC BOMB PLOT... WAG THE WTC II THE BLOCKBUSTER - PART II OF EXPOSING THE WTC BOMB PLOT As an aside - FL I believe you know how to post full files of Web Pages, a skill I haven't learned and which even Neil couldn't tell me how to do, so if you can could you post this article as its own thread? Please. ;-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I was just about to run some errands, but I'll see what I can do later on today...
christine - just a thought and I don't know if Neil can do it, but if I recall correctly Liberty Forum's software had a check box and a space to put in the URL which allowed you to upload an entire article file from your desktop. I don't know how much work it would be, or if it can even be done with Neil's package, but it would certainly add a useful function to the forum to be able to do that and preserve all the links and photos without having to copy each one.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Coolness - thank you.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
OK .... that Chinese connection adds to your conspiracy theory .... still where are the folks planning, planting, financing, scheduling and ensuring that no one saw them? Were they shipped off to China, too?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
He didn't fly it straight into the wall. (1) He hit the wall at an oblique angle which caused the aircraft to not achieve the maximum penatation of a 90 degree impact. (2) He didn't land on the lawn. As I've repeatedly said ground effect makes an air cushion supporting nap of the earth lift the closer the fuselage and wings get to the ground. (3) The wings were oscillating right up to final impact, clipping poles and brushing aside construction equipment, and ingesting a part of a luminary into the engine. This is not an under control approach or crash. (4) The entire secion hit did minimum damage to American interests. The hit was not in a place doing any substantial damage to the US. This is because he was trying to salvage a hit on the building at all instead of hitting a high value section.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ..."I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon," the former employee said. He could not fly at all." That jumped out at me. A 737? Not a 757 or 767 which even a professional 737 pilot would not fly without a lot of hours in the simulator and a checkout flight or three? Another significant datum as the cockpits on all 3 are different. If he couldn't fly a 737 he sure as hell could not fly a totally different airliner that was significantly larger.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
by Fintan Dunne, " href="mailto:%20news@psyopnews.com">mailto:%20news@psyopnews.com The determined man at the controls of Flight 175 was now less than one minute from his own demise, and was in that state of heightened alertness that only approaching death can generate. For no matter how well executed the approach, it would be necessary to make one last seconds adjustment to get right on target. In the final five seconds, the tower would still be half a mile away. That's when the collective million hours of preparation would telescope into seconds and determine the success or failure of the mission. And it wasn't going well. As the tower rushed to fill the view in the cockpit window (3), the pilot realized that he was going too fast and wide of the target to boot. He would miss to the right. Instead of a minor tilt of the controls, he would have to lean the aircraft hard left -NOW! (4) THE ARC OF FAILURE Copyright reserved 2001 www.psyopnews.com by >
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. 25 Rules of Disinformation: How to Fight Back Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation 19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance. 9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect. 16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue. "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Unfortunately, buck and aggravator ain't playin'.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Read the thread from top to bottom and find ANYWHERE I have attempted to throw this thread off track from the central issue concerning "demolition theory of the WTC." You would be wise to ensure your pals read the same as just as you, you don't follow your own recommendations.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Here's how stupid and ignorant these Half-Truthers are regarding aircraft procedures, as in ***sophisticated flight systems and instruments.*** One of the most basic flight navigation instruments is VORTAC radio navigation with Distance Measuring Equipment, or DME. You know what you have to do to navigate by VORTAC/DME? Punch in the radio frequency of the VORTAC station you want to navigate to. For example, to Woodside VORTAC, 16 nm south of San Francisco International, 113.90. That's it. You can get a vector and distance to station, even if the station is hundreds of miles away, in all of 5 seconds.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latestwhat a find you have in this guys contribution to the color spectrum of various metals burning.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#452. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#450)
And it is certain that a man who couldn't fly a Cessna could not fly what they claimed hit the Pentagon.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#453. To: AGAviator (#451)
He gets his facts first, and puts his conclusions last, which is the way it should be.
#454. To: AGAviator, abraxas, James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#452)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#455. To: FormerLurker (#454)
Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#456. To: James Deffenbach (#455)
And when did this amazing transformation happen and what could have caused it? Playing around and getting drunk in nudie bars? Did that transform him into an ace pilot?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#457. To: FormerLurker (#456)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#458. To: James Deffenbach (#457)
If you find that any of those are still available let me know.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#459. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#454)
(Edited)
Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot certificate in April 1999,
but was unable to get a job as a pilot after he returned to his native Saudi Arabia, and told his family he was heading to the United Arab Emirates to find work. He took an international flight out of New York on April 28, but it is not known where he went. Within two weeks however, bank withdrawals were again made in Arizona, indicating he had returned.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#460. To: FormerLurker (#458)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#461. To: AGAviator (#459)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#462. To: AGAviator, James Deffenbach (#459)
Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot certificate in April 1999,
Ultimately, administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex-employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. "He didn't care about the fact that he couldn't get through the course," the ex-employee said.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#463. To: AGAviator (#459)
Furthermore the Pentagon crash itself shows an inexperirenced pilot. The wings were rocking on the final approach, and he went in to the back of the building because the plane got away from him when he tried to hit the Potomac-facing north face of the building which was where the high value target offices including Rumsfeld's were.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#464. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#454)
Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).
At 8:20 AM, Flight 77 took off from Dulles International Airport, 10 minutes after its scheduled departure time. At 8:46, Flight 77 veered severely off course.
At 8:50, the last radio communication was made from the pilots and air traffic control. At 8:56, the jet's transponder was shut off. 1 The pilots' last transmission was "ah direct FALMOUTH American seventy seven thanks." No radio communications from the flight indicated distress. 2 The NTSB report on Flight 77 describes the plane's maneuvers in detail. It began to turn to the south at 8:55, and by 9:00 it was headed east. Shortly thereafter it began to descend from its altitude of 35,000 feet. The autopilot was engaged and disengaged multiple times. At 9:29 the plane was 35 miles west of the Pentagon flying at 7,000 feet. At 9:34 it was about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon and started a 330-degree descending right turn, bringing it to an altitude of about 2000 feet four miles southwest of the Pentagon
#465. To: buckeroo (#464)
Why are you bringing up FLT77 on this thread?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#466. To: FormerLurker (#461)
(Edited)
HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#467. To: FormerLurker (#385)
6 seconds to break and smash every supporting piece of the structure is not enough time to do so.
#468. To: buckeroo (#464)
Ohio?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#469. To: FormerLurker (#465)
#470. To: buckeroo (#467)
Actually, there were large fragments (I think extending 20 floors high, I will check) of the central structure immediately after the collapse.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#471. To: James Deffenbach (#466)
I wonder about how many bowls of Stupid-O's Aggravator and buck would eat in a week.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#472. To: buckeroo (#469)
you can't get your own story straight .... just like FLT77 was flown from OHIO?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#473. To: buckeroo (#469)
Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#474. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#465)
Your pal AGovShill posted about it, bitch at him.
#475. To: FormerLurker (#472)
It's been reported in more than a few places that Flight 77 passed over Ohio, try looking things up before you make a bigger ass of yourself.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#476. To: buckeroo (#474)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#477. To: James Deffenbach (#475)
I have read that he supposedly hijacked the plane over the skies of Ohio in more than one source.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#478. To: FormerLurker (#473)
buckeroo: Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC?
FormerLurker: Where is the raw data that explains how a 757 practically landed (with wheels up, and not touching the ground) on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph without so much as disturbing a blade of grass and smashed straight into the Pentagon wall.
#479. To: buckeroo (#478)
You can't stay on topic... you continue to obfuscate the thread into other topics because you can't answer a single question with a simple or complex answer.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#480. To: FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, IRTorqued, wuddiz, CadetD, christine, Critter, ItIsTooLate, Kamala, all (#455)
#481. To: Original_Intent (#480)
As an aside - FL I believe you know how to post full files of Web Pages, a skill I haven't learned and which even Neil couldn't tell me how to do, so if you can could you post this article as its own thread? Please. ;-)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#482. To: christine, Pinguinite (#480)
#483. To: FormerLurker (#481)
#484. To: FormerLurker (#479)
You ask for information that is unavailable, not because it doesn't exist, but because of the fact that the evidence was destroyed and shipped off the China. I've presented facts that support what I claim, and have already listed them here on this thread.
#485. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#461)
(Edited)
He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#486. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, James Deffenbach wudidiz, all (#462)
But the ex-employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets.
#487. To: Original_Intent (#480)
The original of this page used to be at http://www.eionews.addr.com/psyops/plot_within_a_plot_part1.htm. But that page, and all other material on that site concerned with the WTC demolition, disappeared about 2001-10-21 without explanation. Consequently links in this page to that site, including links to all enlargements, except for Photos 6 and 9 and the photo of the hole in the North Tower, no longer work and have been disabled. The PDF version is viewable.
PDF Version HERE
THE SPLIT-SECOND ERROR
...EXPOSING THE WTC BOMB PLOT...
coEditor, PsyOpNews.com
Research Kathy McMahon
18 September 2001
="
VIDEO Windows Mpeg
THE HIJACK PILOT'S
SPLIT SECOND ERROR
14 mins @ 56K
"IT WAS DESIGNED
FOR A PLANE IMPACT"
Aaron Swirski, one of the architects of the World Trade Center, talks exclusively to Jerusalem Post Radio on the World Trade Center collapse. He says they designed the towers to withstand something like a plane flying into the side.
For interview, Media Player
JpRadio item ...Now working.
12th September, 2001
EXPLOSIVES EXPERT SAYS
WTC WAS BOMBED
Towers collapse "too methodical"
CHARGES PLANTED
TO TAKE
DOWN BUILDING
Van Romero, vice president for research at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology says the collapse of the twin towers resembled those of controlled implosions used in planned demolition.
"My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse," Romero said.
A demolition expert, Romero is a former director of the Energetic Materials Research and Testing Center at Tech, which studies explosive materials and the effects of explosions on buildings, aircraft and other structures.
He said he and Denny Peterson, vice president for administration and finance, were en route to an office building near the Pentagon to discuss defense-funded research programs at Tech. Romero told the Albequerque Journal that he based his opinion on video aired on national television broadcasts.
The detonations could have been caused by a small amount of explosive put in more than two points in each of the towers, he said. "It could have been a relatively small amount of explosives placed in strategic points," Romero said.
BUILDING COLLAPSE SHOCKS
WORLD TRADE CENTER
ENGINEER, ARCHITECT
"I DESIGNED IT FOR A 707 HIT"
DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- Lee Robertson, the project's structural engineer, addressed the problem of terrorism on high-rises at a conference in Frankfurt, Germany, LAST WEEK (!!!), Chicago engineer Joseph Burns told the Chicago Tribune. Burns said Robertson told the conference, "I designed it for a (Boeing)707 to hit it."
UPI REPORT
DETROIT, Sept. 11 (UPI) -- A lead engineer who worked on New York's World Trade Center Towers expressed shock Tuesday that the 110-story lanmarks in Lower Manhattan collapsed after each tower was struck by a hijacked passenger jetliner.
Ahead, as he hurtled across New York towards Manhattan Island, he could see the vast plume of smoke (1). His colleague in Flight 11, approaching from the opposite direction had already made an almost perfect impact on the North Tower of the World Trade Center. 
On the far side of the tower, concealed from his view, was the gash (2) where the hijacked airliner had spread its fuel payload over several floors of the building. Just as the trainers had coached.
But the sight still managed to unnerve him. It was one thing practicing the approach for countless hours on a computer simulator, but this was real life -and no mistake could be made. The planners had insisted that the planes must strike the towers at a banked angle. Otherwise the fire would be confined to only a couple of floors and would not set the building comprehensively alight. Without perfect execution, the imperialists would only suffer minor casualties, he had been told.
What they never told him was that the aircraft impacts were only one half of the plan. One visible and psychologically terrorizing aspect would be provided by the suicidal aircraft. But the other half of the plan was unknown to the two pilots and their accomplices. Bombs had already been planted inside both towers.
They would be detonated after the planes had struck, to ensure the total destruction of the buildings and their evidentiary contents. The bombs inside the towers were strapped to radio-trigger detonators. Other plotters would be near the scene -monitoring TV coverage to determine the right moment to push the final buttons. The full PsyOps (psychological-warfare) effect would be the complete disappearance of these two symbols of US confidence and power.
But if the plane struck at the wrong angle, or even worse -missed altogether, the whole scheme was in danger. Substantial fires were necessary as a cover for the subsequent collapse.
The planners had taken every precaution. Their flight approach paths were calculated to align the two towers as a single target -without a gap between them. His orders were clear. His target was the South Tower, but if the first plane struck the wrong tower, he was to switch to the other. In either event, he must strike at the remaining target with a military precision.
But he didn't. And that's where things began to go wrong.
BANKING ON SUCCESS
A straightforward level approach would have been so much easier. Just line up the towers in the cockpit window and plow straight in. This banked approach was much harder to accomplish. Imagine swinging a stone on the end of a string, aiming to strike a standing beer bottle. Imagine getting only one try. A fully laden 767 is like an elephant with wings -the apotheosis of maneuverability.
Now, the pilot was now less than two miles from his target. The screaming noise of the engines on high power were already causing heads to turn among the early morning crowds below. But they didn't really understand what was happening. One eyewitness would later recount that the first plane had tried to to veer off the tower, but hit it nevertheless. That witness had mistaken the intent of the final course correction.
Photo 3
Photo 4
Photo 5
Photo 6
As the airliner tilted acutely to the left (5), the air under the wings began to leak away -depriving the craft of vital lift, even as the extra centrifugal force generated by the turn meant that he needed more lift -not less. The maneuver was only partly successful. Despite the course correction, the plane still drifted to the right.
In that last instant (6), he never really had time to consider his own death. 
The training and his death-moment concentration focussed him so intently on the task. With a grinding crash the side of the building gave way, as Flight 175 struck near the corner of the tower -too far to the right (7).
The howl of metal and concrete impacting each other was overlaid with the crack of plate glass shattering. The concrete floors of the building cut through the plane like a egg passed through an egg slicer. The metal in its wings offered little resistance. In an instant, the plane had disappeared into the tower like a bird returning to its nest.
But it was no longer an aircraft. It's separated parts careered across the floors of the South Tower. It was no longer obeying the laws of aerodynamics. It was subject to the dictates of the angular momentum caused by the banked approach -and that last moment course correction.
That's when things began to go even more wrong for the cynical perpetrators of the mass death that was now being inflicted on those in the shattered airliner's path.
Photo 8
Photo 9
Earlier, the North Tower impact site had been right in the center of the tower (2). The entire fuel load and flotsam was dumped deep inside and remained in the building -where it exploded (8)(fig 1 below).
But now as Flight 175 disappeared inside the South Tower, it burst like a paper bag full of water. The thousands of pounds of jet fuel were liberated to follow a path dictated by the momentum of what had once been an aircraft.
A wash of jet fuel and airplane parts tore through the interior of the building at hundreds of miles an hour; sweeping everything before it and just starting to ignite as it rushed along. But it didn't take the same course as had aircraft debris inside the North Tower, eighteen minutes before. By contrast, the majority of the fuel and debris from the second plane smashed out of the building and exploded OUTSIDE in the open air over the street (9)(fig 2 below).
The plane's approach was an arc of a great circle -one that had tightened even further with that final twitch on the controls. Imagine again a paper bag of water spun on the end of a string. If the paper bag bursts, the water inside will head off at a tangent to the original arc.
FIGURE 1
FIGURE 2 
In the same fashion, the fuel now tried to take a course to the right of the original flight path. The aircraft had impacted near the corner of the building. Within fractions of a second the already igniting fuel had raced diagonally across the corner to burst out into the open air again, on the adjacent side of the Second Tower. Photos even show a smoking engine which shot out as it had not even been slowed by the building interior (10).
This air explosion provided a stunning pyrotechnic spectacle witnessed by countless millions, but it was an operational disaster. For it left the thorny question of explaining how the South Tower -which took less than half the fuel load of its North Tower twin -was the first of the two to collapse.(See Fig 1&2)
THE WRONG TOWER
FELL FIRST
Even before the second plane hit the South Tower, its northern counterpart was already burning strongly, with a great plume of dense black toxic fumes drifting over a stunned Manhattan. Flight 11 had rocketed deep inside the building before the fuel ignited. On some floors the fire burned across the entire width of the building. By 9:45 a.m. the North Tower was ablaze not just on the floors that took the impact, but all the way to the top of the building (10).
The towers sprinkler fire extinguisher system were bolstered by automatic hermetrically sealing doors on every floor to prevent the spread of fire. But office workers still found themselves stumbling down sometimes darkened and smoke-filled fire escape stairs.
The giant steel beams used to build the towers had been cast in Japan -no American steel milll could roll out the massive 'I' beams. The explanation accepted by the mainstream media pundits for the collapse of both towers is that these beams softened like warm toffee in the intensity of the fires.
If that were the case, then the North Tower was the obvious candidate to be the first to collapse. Not only did it have almost a twenty minute head start on the South Tower conflagration, but the fire extended to the whole area of many floors. The South Tower fire was smaller and more confined, so that by 10:30 a.m. there was an obvious difference visible to those in the streets below and the hypnotized TV cameras now trained on the incredible sight.
But can the collapse in any event be really blamed on the fires within? The great explosions on impact had consumed all the jet fuel in seconds. Now it was plastic fixtures, cabling and internal partitioning that were burning. Or smoldering, to be more precise. Only near the great gaping holes -where there was access to an air supply- did the fire burn with anything like the intensity required to melt great beams of steel.
Neither had the impacts significantly weakened the structural integrity of the buildings. Even under normal circumstances these flexible buildings swayed so much in high winds that seasickness was a noticeable problem among workers on upper floors. Even on floors near the impact sites, many had felt only a mild shudder as the aircraft struck.
For the fire to be the cause of the collapse, most of the array of steel beams that spanned each floor would have to be engulfed in continuous extremely high temperature fire. This did not happen, nor was it essential to the plan. If the real intent had been to collapse the towers by means of fire then the planes would have struck the corners of the towers nearest to each other. That would have increased the chances of one tower collapsing into the other.
What actually happened next -before either tower collapsed, was one or more massive explosions in the other buildings around the towers. Explosions that sent clouds of masonry dust into the air. The first of many blasts that would rock the World Trade Center complex.
The explosions marked the final phase.
The curtain was coming down on the performance.
And the towers themselves would be next to fall.....
PART II
THE BLOCKBUSTER
Fintan Dunne, Kathy McMahon and PsyOpNews.com
Reproduce freely on noncommercial / alternative media.
The World Trade Center Demolition
and the So-Called War on TerrorismSerendipity Home Page
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#488. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, IRTorqued, all (#469)
Where is the raw data to support the demolitions for the WTC? Refute the main article instead of dancing around the subject.
Proper response: There is no suitable response to actual vanished materials or persons, unless you can shed light on the matter, particularly if you can tie the event to a cover up other criminality. However, with respect to dialog where it is used against the discussion, you can respond... 'You are avoiding the issue with disinformation tactics. The best you can say is that the matter is in contention ONLY because of highly suspicious matters such as the simultaneous and mysterious vanishing of three sets of evidence. The suspicious nature itself tends to support the primary allegation. Why do you refuse to address the remaining issues by use of such disinformation tactics (rule 16 - vanish evidence and witnesses)?'
#489. To: Original_Intent (#488)
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#490. To: Original_Intent (#488)
#491. To: buckeroo (#464)
(Edited)
he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).
VOR, short for VHF omnidirectional radio range, is a type of radio navigation system for aircraft. A VOR ground station broadcasts a VHF radio composite signal including the station's identifier, voice (if equipped), and navigation signal. The identifier is morse code.
A VORTAC/DME instrument on the cockpit display automatically gives a straight line vector, any angle off deviation, and distance in nautical miles to a transmitter hundreds of miles away.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
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