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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source: BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
Ping List: *4um PSY-OP Club*     Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*
Keywords: None
Views: 24143
Comments: 1209

An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks.

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition".

The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell.

Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York.

After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001.

This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking").

Resistance to collapse

Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures.

Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts.

"The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website.

Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse.

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

'Fair assumption'

The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

"One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen.

The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings.

The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center.

This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers.

Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble.

Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse.

Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design. Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*

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#515. To: buckeroo (#501)

When you use the term "fact" it is because you ran across some BS on the Internet

Name me one thing that I posted which is untrue. You posted that Flight 77 did not fly over Ohio. That was a lie.

In fact, just about EVERYTHING you post is a lie buck.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:34:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#516. To: AGAviator (#493)

Hanjour got a commercial pilot certificate in 1999.

Provide the following information;

  1. Where did he obtain this license?
  2. What was the name of his instructor, and the name of the flight school?
  3. Where and when did he get his private license?
  4. What was the name of that instructor, and that flight school?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:35:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#517. To: James Deffenbach (#513)

It must be the word "couldn't" that is tripping him up. Look at all those letters, such a big word!

Maybe it's that funny " ' " character that's throwing him off...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:36:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#518. To: FormerLurker (#517)

You know, ol' Badeye had a problem with those too. Think he and the blind one might be related?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-20   16:41:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#519. To: James Deffenbach (#518)

You know, ol' Badeye had a problem with those too. Think he and the blind one might be related?

Probably both inbred from the same lineage...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   16:42:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#520. To: AGAviator (#485)

(1) He hit the wall at an oblique angle which caused the aircraft to not achieve the maximum penatation of a 90 degree impact.

The aircraft flew level, the wings were not banking, and the nose was not up or down. The ANGLE which the aircraft impacted the wall actually caused MORE damage than if it had hit at a 90 degree angle.

(2) He didn't land on the lawn. As I've repeatedly said ground effect makes an air cushion supporting nap of the earth lift the closer the fuselage and wings get to the ground.

Can you repeat that in English? The aircraft didn't PHYSICALLY TOUCH down on the lawn, his wheels weren't down, but IF the wheels were down the aircraft would have landed.

As far as ground effect, it's physically impossible for a large heavy aircraft with relatively low wing-loading, such as a 757, to fly lower than 60 feet off the ground at speeds of 400+ mph. The alleged hijacker whose instuctors said "could not fly at all", allegedly flew the aircraft down to 20 FEET off the Pentagon lawn at a speed of 530 MPH.

The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

(3) The wings were oscillating right up to final impact, clipping poles and brushing aside construction equipment, and ingesting a part of a luminary into the engine. This is not an under control approach or crash.

Post your source. For the aircraft to have impacted as it did, it had to fly with its wings straight and its nose level, especially being there was no damage to the Pentagon lawn. If it had touched the ground with its wings, not only would the wing have broken off and exploded, it would have left obvious skid marks. There were none, and the wing didn't blow up on the lawn.

As far as the lightposts, the officers who first responded to the scene report those lightposts were still standing when they got there, but OTHER light poles were knocked down from the aircraft THEY saw hit the Pentagon, which flew north of the ALLEGED flight path taken according to the official story, which placed it over the poles YOU claim were knocked down.

(4) The entire secion hit did minimum damage to American interests. The hit was not in a place doing any substantial damage to the US. This is because he was trying to salvage a hit on the building at all instead of hitting a high value section.

The aircraft went OUT OF ITS WAY to avoid the high value section of the Pentagon, performing a precision manuever to direct it to the side it actually hit. Pretty thoughtful of that terrorist, wasn't it...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-20   20:14:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#521. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#516)

Provide the following information;

1.Where did he obtain this license? 2.What was the name of his instructor, and the name of the flight school? 3.Where and when did he get his private license? 4.What was the name of that instructor, and that flight school?

Go to hell and do your own research, Half Truther. Try to prove I'm lying and once again you'll get clouted.

All this documentation is freely available online. I already posted links where you could have followed through and found everything out yourself.

But no, you'd much prefer exchanging circlejerk gaybanter with your fellow cultists, than finding out anything real. So you've been putting your priorities where you think they belong- Circlejerk Fairyland instead of the evidence probviding subject matter for this this thred.

Not only did Hanjour get a commercial certificate in 1999, he was the longest hijacker in the US, dating back to 1990. So your "fairie" tale of an ignorant half baked rube once again fails the reality test.

Hanjour got a commercial pilot certificate in 1999.

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?

The part where you swallow hook, line and sinker a clearly hyperbole statement.

What exactly does "couldn't fly at all" mean, Half Truther?

He couldn't flap his arms and become airborne?

Since Hanjour already passed all FAA exams in 1999 needed to get his commercial license, the "at all" is clearly false.

A more accurate statement is that in 2001, Hanjour didn't care about demonstrating the required skills needed to keep his 1999 commercial pilot license, because that wasn't what he saw his suicide mission needing. And his instructors noted at the time he was not material to demonstrate valid acceptable commercial pilot skills, because he did not care.

Finally, as long as you're getting another boxing around your ears, tell me what's so difficult about navigating by punching 4 digits for a suitable VORTAC/DME station into an instrument installed prominently on the cockpit control panel.

Are you and your fellow cultists claiming that's too difficult to do any navigation by... For whom, other than yourselves...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   22:31:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#522. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#520)

The ANGLE which the aircraft impacted the wall actually caused MORE damage than if it had hit at a 90 degree angle.

False. The starboard wing got mostly ground against the building exterior wall because it ran approximately parallel to it, while the port wing got folded back into the fuselage because it was inserted into a tight space with little force available to push the width of that space wider.

IF the wheels were down the aircraft would have landed.

No. In landing especially ground landings the power must be cut down drastically. Had the wheels been lowered the plane would have repeatedly bounced anywhere from a few feet to over 100.

As far as ground effect, it's physically impossible for a large heavy aircraft with relatively low wing-loading, such as a 757, to fly lower than 60 feet off the ground at speeds of 400+ mph. The alleged hijacker whose instuctors said "could not fly at all", allegedly flew the aircraft down to 20 FEET off the Pentagon lawn at a speed of 530 MPH.

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   23:03:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#523. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

Keep those fingernails dug in that Official Fairy Tale about the magic Arabs, magick Jet fuel, and buildings that miraculously fall into their own footprint 3 at time is tough sell since there are so many things about it that are hilarious.

Wanna buy a bridge kid?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-20   23:13:56 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#524. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#523) (Edited)

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

Hanjour's 1999 FAA commercial pilot certificate trumps the comments of his flight instructor.

None of you Half Truthers bothered to find out about that because all you are capable of is parroting whatever k00ksites put out.

Clearly Hanjour didn't GAS about the things his flight instructor thought were important. That does not translate into him being unable to do them, just that he couldn't be bothered to do them.

Keep those fingernails dug in that Official Fairy Tale

Here is a partial list, which will get bigger and bigger as I review my postings, of the issues you've been clouted on in this forum.

(1) Two aircraft crashes released gigajoules of kinetic energy into the Twin Tower structures, and within 2 hours both structures collapsed from structural damage,
(2) A fireman is recorded on video saying a third WTC Building, WTC7, will be going down because the building is losing its structural stability from crash damage and uncontrolled fires,
(3) Over 30 calls from hijacked aircraft were logged including several by flight attendants giving seat numbers and descriptions of hijackers,
(4) The false statement that Flight 77's cabin door was not opened has been demonstrated to be a lie, as there is no evidence about any cabin door operation of that aircraft either during or before the September 11 flight,
(5) The lauded "peer review publication" of Tw00ferk00ks Steven Jones and Niels Harrit have been shown to be pay-to- publish articles for which $800 was given to a Dhubai publishing mill, with zero other peer reviewed articles
(6) The phrase "pull" as used by the demolition industry means "pull down with cables," and as used by firefighters means "pull back from site,"
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place, and
(8) It's a physical impossibility for a structure to both be flexible enough to absorb gigajoules of energy, move away from vertical centerline, return to vertical centerline on its own, then be rigid enough to provide a fixed platform for a rotating and falling top section to collapse outside the building footprint
(9) The actual free fall times of the WTC towers have been conclusively shown as 15+ seconds for 1 tower and 22+ seconds for the other, an order of magnitude above the claimed "free fall time" of 9.22 seconds which is supposed to be evidence of a controlled demolition
(10) Claimed molten steel evidence of thermite flowing from 80th floors is actually aluminum and trash cooling on way down and not hot enough to remain melted as it falls a few hundred feet

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-20   23:18:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#525. To: AGAviator (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier

Where did he get it from?

What was the name of his instructor?

What was the name of the flight school?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   0:57:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#526. To: AGAviator (#524)

You love to spam this 4um with the same bullshit, day in and day out, don't you...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   0:58:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#527. To: AGAviator (#521)

Go to hell and do your own research, Half Truther.

It doesn't exist, bullshit artist.

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

His instructors at the flight simulator school said he couldn't fly at all, and that was reported by the New York Times.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:01:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#528. To: AGAviator (#522)

False. The starboard wing got mostly ground against the building exterior wall because it ran approximately parallel to it, while the port wing got folded back into the fuselage because it was inserted into a tight space with little force available to push the width of that space wider.

Hey moron, the fuselage entered the building and penetrated HOW many rings? Screw off with your "little force available" tap dance.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:03:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#529. To: AGAviator (#522)

No. In landing especially ground landings the power must be cut down drastically. Had the wheels been lowered the plane would have repeatedly bounced anywhere from a few feet to over 100.

The power has to be cut for the plane to descend normally, and for the nose to touch down. SOMEHOW he managed to FLY the plane at 530 mph at an altitude it would normally land at, so he DID effectively land the plane, in a manner not even professional airline pilots could hope to accomplish.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:05:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#530. To: AGAviator (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other.

Go file your complaint with the New York Times and his flight school, they're the ones who reported it, circlegobbler.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:07:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#531. To: Original_Intent (#523)

Of course the comments of his flight instructor that he couldn't fly is of course an insignificant datum.

To AGJerkoff, the New York Times is a "circle jerk conspiracy source", where him and his butt pal buck are "official experts" and more knowledgeable about all this than any scientist, flight instructor, pilot, or anyone else who disagrees with THEIR story.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:11:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#532. To: AGAviator (#522)

Since Hanjour had aleady obtained a commercial pilot certificate two years earlier, the statement he could not fly at all is an exaggeration glommed onto by the Half Truther usual suspects, who can't be bothered to research facts, because that will take time away from their circlejerk gaybanter with each other

From Newsday Magazine

However, when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft- spoken Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997," Chilton said.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   1:18:52 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#533. To: FormerLurker (#532)

He was so bad they didn't even want to train him.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-21   1:33:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#534. To: FormerLurker (#526)

You love to spam this 4um with the same bullshit

You can't rebut any of it, Half Truther...So you go to Plan B, circlejerk gaybanter with your Twisters.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:45:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#535. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#527)

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

His instructors at the flight simulator school said he couldn't fly at all, and that was reported by the New York Times

Lying as usual, fuckwit.

It's all on public records referred to by links I've already provided.

Pathetic loser.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:47:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#536. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker (#513)

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?

It must be the word "couldn't" that is tripping him up. Look at all those letters, such a big word!

Well you know how he is about BIG words.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-21   1:49:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#537. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#532) (Edited)

Even though Hanjour showed a federal pilot's license and a log book cataloging 600 hours of flying experience, chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

You just finished telling me Hanjour's pilot certificate was non existent and a fake, because the NY Times said nothing about it.

Now you're quoting another source that explicitly says Hanjour had a Federal pilot license, and 600 hours in his logbook

Spin and twist, Chubby Checker.

Spin and twist.

LOLOL!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:51:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#538. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#536) (Edited)

What part of "HE COULDN'T FLY AT ALL" don't you understand?

What part of "1999 Federal commercial pilot license" and "600 hours in logbook" don't you understand, Half Truther?

To get his 1999 commercial pilot license, Hanjour had to pass FAA tests both written and flight performance.

Eat your words, loser.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   1:54:50 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#539. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#532) (Edited)

Never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

Two different types of licenses, Half Truther.

Once again you conflate two distinct items, into a single gloopy tarball of k00kspiracy theory.

Hanjour's license and training were for a commercial pilot, which is the license you need to fly passenger carrying jets.

Hanjour's single engine license private pilot is not relevant to 911 unless you want to claim Hanjour somehow needed to fly a Cessna 172 into the targets.

Nearly all aircraft pilots say it's harder to fly smaller aircraft than larger ones. The smaller craft are more susceptible to wind and weather changes, don't have backup safety systems, and require constant attention. Even experienced ATP pilots are often asked to take additional training if they have not piloted smaller craft recently.

As I have already said, the hardest parts of piloting are takeoffs and landings. So what does your source say?

when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took the slender, soft- spoken Hanjour on three test runs...they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single- engine Cessna 172
You know what? The Cessna people made the right decision. They owned an airplane with millions of dollars of liability insurance on it. They didn't feel like renting to anyone who could not completely control the aircraft under all circumstances. That was the smart thing to do.

However Hanjour knew just enough about both large and small planes to be dangerous. And he didn't need anyone's permission to hijack an airplane and fly it into a building, however clumsily.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   3:15:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#540. To: FormerLurker (#531)

To AGJerkoff, the New York Times is a "circle jerk conspiracy source", where him and his butt pal buck are "official experts" and more knowledgeable about all this than any scientist, flight instructor, pilot, or anyone else who disagrees with THEIR story.

And if all that isn't enough they even know more than all the eyewitnesses who were there on scene and heard bombs. You know, the firefighters and folks like that. People who probably don't get rattled too easily.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   8:07:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#541. To: FormerLurker (#527)

There IS no information on Hanjour, the "certificate" was probably entered into the computer by an "associate". There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

It was fabricated apparently.

Like Obama's birth certificate. See how much that sumbitch has in common with terrorists?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   8:13:17 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#542. To: Original_Intent (#536)

Well you know how he is about BIG words.

Indeed. Before I put his ignunt ass on my clown filter I had noticed that. Now I never see his delusions unless someone posts to him and copies and pastes what he is rambling about into their reply.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   8:15:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#543. To: AGAviator (#539)

Hanjour's license and training were for a commercial pilot, which is the license you need to fly passenger carrying jets.

Which apparently is fake, as there's no record of him ever taking lessons for that.

Besides, are you trying to say you don't need to know how to take-off, land, or fly a plane in order to obtain a commericial license?

Are you saying that you don't need to know how to fly a single engine plane before progressing to multi-engine?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:53:28 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#544. To: AGAviator (#537)

Now you're quoting another source that explicitly says Hanjour had a Federal pilot license, and 600 hours in his logbook

A logbook and license that had no basis in reality. Again, find his records indicating he ever took lessons and ever held a private license. Find the names of his prior flight schools.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:55:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#545. To: AGAviator (#535)

It's all on public records referred to by links I've already provided.

What was the name of his commercial flight school?

What was the name of his instructor?

What was the name of his private license flight school?

Where's his multi-engine certificate?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:56:18 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#546. To: AGAviator (#534)

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale, Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

When Hanjour reapplied to the center last year, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn't think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997," Chilton said.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   11:57:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#547. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, *9-11* (#539)

Nearly all aircraft pilots say it's harder to fly smaller aircraft than larger ones.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Find me ONE legitimate pilot who EVER said it's easier to fly an airliner than it is to fly a Cessna 172.

Post it here, or admit that you are a LIAR EXTRAORDINAIRE.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:20:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#548. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#546)

In the spring of 2000, Hanjour had asked to enroll in the CRM Airline Training Center in Scottsdale , Ariz., for advanced training, said the center's attorney, Gerald Chilton Jr. Hanjour had attended the school for three months in late 1996 and again in December 1997 but never finished coursework for a license to fly a single-engine aircraft, Chilton said.

Wrong pilot license, wrong aircraft, wrong school, wrong dates.

Hanjour got an FAA commercial pilot license, not private pilot license, the license was from a different school than you cite, it was for a passenger aircraft and not a single engine Cessna 172, and it was during a different time period than you mention.

On your attempts to introduce facts you're 0 for 4.

When you claim Hanjour never got any license and someone entered phony information into a computer, 0 for 5.

Anything else you want to fuck up, Half Truther, before I clout you on yet another misrepresented narrative?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-21   12:21:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#549. To: AGAviator, *9-11* (#539)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:23:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#550. To: AGAviator (#548)

Anything else you want to fuck up, Half Truther, before I clout you on yet another misrepresented narrative?

Hey you lying POS, when are you going to put your tail between you legs and scampper off to whatever hole you crawled out of?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:24:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#551. To: AGAviator (#534)

You can't rebut any of it, Half Truther [FormerLurker]...So you go to Plan B, circlejerk gaybanter with your Twisters.

Why do you give FormerLurker so much credit? He is not even close, based upon his "cabin door theories" "FLT77 from Ohio theories" "government complicit demolition theories" ... the list goes on and on and on..... He has successfully sidetracked this thread ( as always ) .... now, we are talking about Hanjour's background .... like that little terrorist is so remarkable.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   12:28:46 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#552. To: FormerLurker (#547)

aggravator: Nearly all aircraft pilots say it's harder to fly smaller aircraft than larger ones.

Oh Lawd have mercy, my freakin' sides!!! I guess the next thing will be that all professional truck drivers will tell us that it is far easier to drive a fully loaded tractor trailer over an ice road in Alaska than a Volkswagon on a good road in clear weather. ahaha. I will probably chuckle over that one off and on the rest of the day. Thanks. I wouldn't have seen that insanity if you hadn't copied it in your reply.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-21   12:32:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#553. To: AGAviator (#548) (Edited)

Hanjour got an FAA commercial pilot license, not private pilot license, the license was from a different school than you cite, it was for a passenger aircraft and not a single engine Cessna 172, and it was during a different time period than you mention.

So I'm supposed to believe YOU, the forum liar, rather than the news reports that reported the facts concerning Hanjour's background, eh?

Post the following information concerning Hanjour's commercial license;

  1. The name of the FAA inspector who signed off on his commercial certificate
  2. The name of his commericial flight school and instructor(s)
  3. Find any information on his multi-engine license or certificate
  4. Find any information on his single-engine license

You see genius, you can't walk into an FAA office and tell them you want a commericial license, have them say ok, here ya go. You HAVE to FIRST take lessons for a SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE license, solo, acquire flight hours, THEN take a test with an FAA examiner, similar to driver's road test, where every aspect of a pilot's abilities are scrutinized, THEN if successful a PRIVATE SINGLE ENGINE license is issued.

THEN, in order to fly MULTI-ENGINE planes, you need to take lessons for that and go through a similar process.

THEN, a pilot would need to fly a simulator and take lessons for IFR flight, ie. flying with instruments only, and be examined for that, and be issued a IFR certificate.

THEN, a pilot would need to log many hours of time IFR, and take lessons for a COMMERCIAL license, THEN be examined by the FAA for that.

So go ahead and provide that information concerning his flight training and FAA certifications.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:35:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#554. To: James Deffenbach (#552)

Oh Lawd have mercy, my freakin' sides!!! I guess the next thing will be that all professional truck drivers will tell us that it is far easier to drive a fully loaded tractor trailer over an ice road in Alaska than a Volkswagon on a good road in clear weather. ahaha. I will probably chuckle over that one off and on the rest of the day. Thanks. I wouldn't have seen that insanity if you hadn't copied it in your reply.

Yep, I'm sure B-52 pilots find it easier to fly those big suckers than a Cessna or Piper single engine.

Just like it's much easier to pilot an oil tanker or aircraft carrier than it is operate a rowboat or a speed boat.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:43:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#555. To: buckeroo (#551)

"FLT77 from Ohio theories"

Hey numbnuts, are you STILL trying to say that FLT77 didn't fly over Ohio?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-21   12:44:12 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  



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