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Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source:
BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
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Keywords: None
Views: 18604
Comments: 1209
An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks. The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total. One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition". The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell. Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York. After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001. This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking"). Resistance to collapse Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures. Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts. "The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website. Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse. His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down. This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground. 'Fair assumption' The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell". "One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen. The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings. The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center. This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers. Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble. Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse. Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design.
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#664. To: AGAviator (#655)
You are busted with most every post you make. Saying the WTC towers would fall apart if "held sideways." You sound like a kid, I know of no one that can "hold" a building, much less hold it sideways. And why is it that you think it would fall apart sideways anyway? Do you not think the same welds and bolts that hold the floors together vertically would work sideways as well? And even if the floors did not remain together because of shoddy construction, at the very least the core would. No one in their right mind would say the core of the towers would fall apart if sideways, expect you of course, but then again, you probably aren't in your right mind.
God is always good!
That is correct. Why should I?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
You: Actual studies with access to data and facts instead of internet k00ksites. Link your sources, please, for that info. Wikipedia and the NTSB report cited there for that claim are invalidated as references for it, unless you can show otherwise.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Because you and your pal usually play tag team and post the same BS.
ROTFL.... Here is your ridulous reference @post#374 about your own awkward post: What a crock of BS... no facts, no witnesses, no research ... pure unadultered BS intended to throw the thread off track.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Finally admitting your strategy here, eh buck?
I am not an airplane pilot. I am an degreed engineer though. So, I don't argue from AG's viewpoint and although he agrees with some of my posts, he doesn't discuss relevant issues from mine. Why are you so passionate about proving the incredible by pushing on a rope?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Please list any bridges or anything you've had a hand in, I'll make sure I avoid them at all costs.
Any patents Eager might have are irrelevant. It is nothing more than an appeal to authority. What is relevant are the actual facts of the situation and the observed phenomena as compared to known data. What a delightful disinformation graphic. The fires did not reach 2,000 degrees F. Given the available fuel, even if we assume every drop burned in the building (which we know it did not) ten thousand gallons of jet fuel had, at most, the energy required to heat the buildings to about 536 degrees. Well below any of the critical threshholds. (As you well know the calculations have been previously posted.) I like the way the article maximizes the quantity of fuel by saying 60,000 pounds instead of ten thousand gallons - of which all was gone in ten minutes and most of it outside the building. I also love the weasel wording "damaging the upper floors" which is intended to make it sound like every upper level floor was damaged. And the rigidity of the structure and the amount of elasticity is absolutely relevant as it tells how much resistance the structure is going to offer to an impact either from the jet, minimal effect, or the upper floors collapsing. Again you show that all you have at your disposal is misrepresentations and false data.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Oh and BTW, Eager is not a pilot either. He is a MIT professor who claims it was perfectly possible for the collapse to occur as it did, using momentum calculations to "prove" his point. Thing is, those calculations are worthless since he made the fundamental error of treating the collisions as elastic, rather than inelastic. As a "degreed engineer", you should know about those things. Apparently, you obtained your degree at the same school Hanjour acquired his "commercial pilot's license", the University of the inkjet printer.
P.S. You avoided my question again about why there is no engine-noise in the background of what you assert are phone calls from the planes. How many times have you done that now? More importantly, why do you keep avoiding that question?
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
What sort of engineer, sanitation?
What else can be expected from those in the 911 Liars Movement?
Where have you seen that? The impact of the aircraft seriously weakened about 6 floors around the adjacent impact (81st and 96th floors) therein causing the upper floors to fall because of the lack of support. As always O_I... you blow shit out your keyboard beyond your ass.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
I design high speed data networks, MSEE.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Yes, the collapse occurred... I haven't read anything about Eager. @post#644, I provided a picture of the idea..... what is your comment?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Misleading as always buckster. The planes, based on the angle of impact, did not critically damage the primary load bearing structure the immensely strong core which consisted of heavy cross braced steel beams and a LOT of concrete. This is particularly noticeable on the plane hitting the South Tower which enters at an angle near the center but the nose exits in the outside corner where the big orange fireball, which was most of the planes fuel load burning outstide the building, occurs. It is doubtful that it could have damaged more than one or two of the 47 heavy steel crossbraced support columns in the primary load bearing structure i.e., the core. I will say that your command of illogic is stunning.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Where did you find that information? Link it for the thread to see.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Eager is also a liar, since there were NOT 90,000 liters (23,775 gallons) of jet fuel in either tower. At most there were 10,000 gallons in each plane prior to impact, and much of it was spent in the initial fireballs outside the towers.
To get a EE, you need to take some courses in physics. Collisions and momentum are part of freshman year physics.
Where did you read that "it is doubtful?" I want some facts to support your well-researched post. You sound like hyperbole to me.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Now, that you want to describe backgrounds ... what is yours besides a Phd in Spin-o-logy with a minor in publick BS?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Perhaps it wasn't Eager who spoke about momentum and kinetic energy, it was YOU who brought that up in one of your earlier posts, one related to Eager... From Post 414:Flight 77 Cockpit Door Never Opened During 9/11 “Hijack” Please list any bridges or anything you've had a hand in, I'll make sure I avoid them at all costs. I highly doubt he is a college graduate engineer, he probably means a certificate he got for attending a "Sanitation Engineering" class mandated by the company he use to work for before he got a job being a stooge on the Internet.
God is always good!
None of your business. Let's just say I'm more educated than you. If you're so educated on networks, can you tell me what the difference is between TCP/IP and UDP/IP? What part of the protocol stack does the TCP component reside, and where does the IP component reside?
That'd be my first impression as well.
You plug cables up, I figured. LOL!
God is always good!
Don't you want to share your authenticated credentials beyond believing in government conspiracies to razzle&dazzle us with your expertise that is non-factual and based upon speculation and BS?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
TCP/IP and UDP/IP? Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks... UDP is at a lower level of the stack... it involves no retransmissions based on packet errors .... it is fast because it is a lower layer.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
My credentials are irrelevant when what I say can be easily confirmed by any freshman year textbook in physics.
No! You don't mean it!
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. AWESOME! Are you saying, therefore, you failed kindergarten because ... so far ... thread after thread after thread... you can't conform anything based on fact.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
LOL! One of the reasons buck wound up on ye olde clown filter, all that lying about "winning" when he has done nothing but take things out of context and say that up is down and black is white. We call that lying where I'm from.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Please give your degree back to whatever cracker box university you got it from, it isn't worth the paper it is printed on. The lower floors were not holding up the upper floors you moron! The central core was holding them up, which sustained very little damage.
God is always good!
And he needs to list any skyscraper he might have ever done a drawing for or anything. They would be more places to avoid.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks... UDP is at a lower level of the stack... it involves no retransmissions based on packet errors .... it is fast because it is a lower layer. BUSTED, now I KNOW you are a LIAR. TCP stands for Transport Control Protocol, whereas UDP stands for Universal Datagram Protocol. IP stands for Internet Protocol. UDP is a connectionless protocol that simply broadcasts data packets to specified destinations, whereas TCP utilizes connections between two addresses and verifies data integrity. IP is a lower layer protocol which routes traffic between addresses regardless of upper layer protocol. TCP and UDP both reside in the Transport Layer of the OSI protocol stack, whereas IP resides in the Network Layer. Yeah, I failed kindergarten, just like you have a MSEE.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks... Oh and BTW there Mr. MSEE, the very web browser you are using uses TCP/IP, where HTTP is the higher layer application protocol. when one rules out the improbable only the impossible is left and if they (the pushers of the official fairy tale) expect us to believe the impossibility that hanjour flew that plane then cough up the video of hanjour getting on that plane and the video of that plane hitting the pentagon. seeing how they won't because they can't, whether hanjour could fly or not is moot; as well if hanjour had a real commercial pilots license is moot.
Sure .. if you use that crap for publick networks.. Crap? Public networks? Are you insane dude? Or do you think we all were just born yesterday? TCP/IP is used on MOST public networks everywhere in the freaking WORLD! It is merely a protocol for data communications, not crap. By the way, in America we don't put a 'k' on the end of public. Just thought you would like to know.
God is always good!
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#665. To: FormerLurker (#654)
Oh that's right buck, YOU didn't personally post anything about Eager
#666. To: AGAviator (#649)
Me: Where did you get your info claiming the FDR did not show any movement for 40 hours and 11 flights prior to September 11?
#667. To: buckeroo (#665)
That is correct. Why should I?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#668. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#653)
My original post specifically mentioned Eager and MIT's connections to the CIA, and that much of what MIT does is under government funding.
Eager appears to have been brought on board to provide "credibility" to the preposterous Official Conspiracy Theory™.
#669. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#668)
... no facts, no witnesses, no research ... pure unadultered BS intended to throw the thread off track.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#670. To: FormerLurker (#667)
Because you and your pal usually play tag team and post the same BS.
#671. To: buckeroo (#670)
I am an degreed engineer though.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#672. To: AGAviator (#647)
You've been repeatedly challenged to show any false statements in Eagar's WTC remarks, CV or patents.
#673. To: buckeroo (#670)
I am not an airplane pilot.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#674. To: AGAviator (#649)
#675. To: buckeroo (#670)
I am an degreed engineer
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#676. To: Original_Intent (#672)
Again you show that all you have at your disposal is misrepresentations and false data.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#677. To: Original_Intent (#672)
I also love the weasel wording "damaging the upper floors" which is intended to make it sound like every upper level floor was damaged.
#678. To: FormerLurker (#675)
#679. To: FormerLurker (#673)
... it was perfectly possible for the collapse to occur as it did
#680. To: buckeroo (#677)
The impact of the aircraft seriously weakened about 6 floors around the adjacent impact (81st and 96th floors) therein causing the upper floors to fall because of the lack of support.
#681. To: Original_Intent (#680)
#682. To: AGAviator (#647)
(Edited)
Eagar does say the WTC Towers were not designed with a 90,000 liter Molotov cocktail to be ignited in them.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#683. To: buckeroo (#678)
I design high speed data networks, MSEE.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#684. To: Original_Intent (#680)
It is doubtful that it could have damaged more than one or two of the 47 heavy steel crossbraced support columns in the primary load bearing structure i.e., the core.
#685. To: FormerLurker (#683)
#686. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#647)
Your off-topic remarks about elastic vs inelastic collisions are typical Half Truther obfuscations.
floor-by-floor pancaking collapses introduce momentum and kinetic energy transfers
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#687. To: FormerLurker (#671)
I am an degreed engineer though.
#688. To: buckeroo (#685)
Now, that you want to describe backgrounds ... what is yours besides a Phd in Spin-o-logy with a minor in publick BS?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#689. To: RickyJ (#687)
I highly doubt he is a college graduate engineer, he probably means a certificate he got for attending a "Sanitation Engineering" class mandated by the company he use to work for before he got a job being a stooge on the Internet.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#690. To: buckeroo (#678)
I design high speed data networks, MSEE.
#691. To: FormerLurker (#688)
None of your business.
#692. To: FormerLurker (#688)
#693. To: buckeroo (#691)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#694. To: Original_Intent (#653)
You are being disengenuous again buck.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#695. To: FormerLurker (#693)
My credentials are irrelevant when what I say can be easily confirmed by any freshman year textbook in physics.
#696. To: FormerLurker (#654)
(Edited)
Oh that's right buck, YOU didn't personally post anything about Eager, it was your butt buddy AGAviator who did, and each time he did, you would publically felate him and declare victory.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#697. To: buckeroo (#677)
The impact of the aircraft seriously weakened about 6 floors around the adjacent impact (81st and 96th floors) therein causing the upper floors to fall because of the lack of support.
#698. To: FormerLurker (#671)
Please list any bridges or anything you've had a hand in, I'll make sure I avoid them at all costs.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#699. To: buckeroo, ALL (#692)
TCP/IP and UDP/IP?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#700. To: buckeroo (#695)
AWESOME! Are you saying, therefore, you failed kindergarten because ... so far ... thread after thread after thread... you can't conform anything based on fact.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#701. To: RickyJ (#687)
I highly doubt he is a college graduate engineer, he probably means a certificate he got for attending a "Sanitation Engineering" class mandated by the company he use to work for
before he got a job being a stooge on the Internet.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#702. To: buckeroo, ALL (#692)
TCP/IP and UDP/IP?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#703. To: FormerLurker (#592)
Hanjour didn't just hijack the plane over Washington and dive it into the Pentagon, he FLEW it from Ohio to Washington, descended into a precision turn, and FLEW it at treetop level for a mile or so at 400+ mph then effectively LANDED it without touching the ground, ie. he brought it down to 20 feet off the deck while flying it at 530 MPH, and FLEW right into the Pentagon wall at ground level, with his nose level.
computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.
#704. To: buckeroo (#692)
TCP/IP and UDP/IP?
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