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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source: BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
Ping List: *4um PSY-OP Club*     Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*
Keywords: None
Views: 25850
Comments: 1209

An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks.

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition".

The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell.

Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York.

After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001.

This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking").

Resistance to collapse

Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures.

Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts.

"The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website.

Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse.

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

'Fair assumption'

The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

"One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen.

The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings.

The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center.

This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers.

Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble.

Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse.

Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design. Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*

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#111. To: Eric Stratton (#109)

If controlled demolition charges were used, where are the eye witnesses, the HARD evidence and how could such an event occur with shattering the glass from floor to floor to floor before each floor fell.

And if CD happened, where was the acoustic energy bouncing around or echoing all over NYC streets?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   0:41:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: IRTorqued (#110)

ah but did they have a BBC reporter on hand?

That BBC is so special......they must have prophets pretending to be news casters. Funny, but all the other sky scrapers that have had fires buring for MUCH longer than WTC7 didn't collapse at all, so the BBC prophets didn't give a heads up on pending buildings falling. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   0:44:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: abraxas (#112)

funny thing is the BBC seems to have lost that reporter bimbo when questions started to flood in WRT her prophetess abilities. and what ever happened in the case of the titanium cored 400 ounce gold bars China got from the U.S. via London?


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   0:51:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: IRTorqued (#113)

and what ever happened in the case of the titanium cored 400 ounce gold bars China got from the U.S. via London?

I think we might know the answers to these relevant questions if we actually had a frickin' media in the US......but instead we have corporate toadies. Nothing to see here Looky Lous....move along now.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   1:00:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: abraxas, IRTorqued (#114)

It was Tungsten not Titanium. Titanium is actually worth something. Tungsten is relatively cheap, but has about the same weight as gold.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:04:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, ccritter (#63)

Do you mean such as blowing all the windows out on the sub floors of the WTC buildings?

Show me some blast clouds sending things upwards, not just sideways and downward, at hundreds of MPH initial velocities, not just at speeds not even equalling sideways and downward speeds from gravity.

Then show me those blast clouds starting out big, and themselves expanding in all directions at hundreds of MPH, not clouds barely getting big as fast as dust- driven clouds expand.

Those scenarios would be explosions. Events falling short of these factors are not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   1:09:39 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: AGAviator (#116)

Did you watch that video? The explosions were in the SUB FLOORS.

Why don't you watch it and explain to me how the eye witnesses are wrong and you are right.

They even talk about those dastardly blast clouds........burning their flesh and blowing them many feet away from where they were prior to the f'n explosions.

Shit, if you can't even watch the f'n video where the eye witnesses will tell you exactly what you are asking of me, then you are hopeless and you really don't want any answers to the questions you pose.

The witnesses clearly articulate AN EXPLOSION.......watch for yourself or shut your pie hole.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   1:14:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: buckeroo (#92)

You attempted to evade the point and I am not going to let you.

And I am not evading you or anyone. That is why I chose to initiate a thread with the title banner you see.

I do believe you are running a circuit of what Gerard Holmgren calls "The Fruit Loop".

So, you agreed that no plane hit WTC 7.

Then you cited unspecified damage from the collapse of the other 2 towers.

When asked to cite why you believe that, not including the discredited Pop Mechanics Disinfo piece you replied with a vague reference to the NIST Report (which itself has been shredded).

When asked to cite what and where specifically in the report you gave me the above. More evasion.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:16:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#117)

watch for yourself or shut your pie hole.

Objection your honor! There is no evidence that the accused puts pie in it. (I do so love double entendres.) ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:18:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: abraxas, *9-11* (#0)

.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-18   1:35:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Original_Intent (#115)

you are correct tungsten.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   1:45:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: IRTorqued (#121)

Roger.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   1:51:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Original_Intent (#115)

we save broken tungsten cutters and bits a pound of them will get a person about seven federal reserve units. notice I didn't say dollars as those must by law contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   1:54:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: abraxas (#114)

we have a media in the U.S. problem is they are controlled by the same group that controls the RNC and the DNC, over 50 percent of the presidential cabinet positions for the past 60 plus years have been filled by them and they are the CFR.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   2:04:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Original_Intent (#118)

the only way any of the crap bucky copies and paste as part of his duties as a ranking member of the liar movement to have even a shred of accuracy is if that crap started out "once upon a time"


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-18   2:13:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle, Original_Indent (#117)

Why don't you watch it and explain to me how the eye witnesses are wrong and you are right.

Your eyewitnesses link what they call "explosions" and "fireballs" with an airplane hitting the WTC at that exact same moment in time.

With the damage going through the building core. And branching out at various elevator and stairwell locations.

So you wanna say the eyewitnesses are right? Fine with me. The eyewitnesses say the blasts they're commenting on are the direct results of the airplane crash. Other than that, they have more unanswered comments, where they express not knowing what caused what they experienced, than they have observations or answers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   2:21:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: AGAviator (#126)

It is extremely dishonest to ignore the multiple witnesses who said very clearly that the explosions were on the SUB FLOORS of the building. You ignore the janitor who saved peoples' lives and was an eye witness to explosions in the parking garages and where the generators were kept.

How can you simply lie like that on a public forum? As if others won't notice that your are blatantly dishonest. What a dork!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   2:48:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: IRTorqued (#125)

the only way any of the crap bucky copies and paste as part of his duties as a ranking member of the liar movement to have even a shred of accuracy is if that crap started out "once upon a time"

LOL! I've been reading an interesting analysis of the NIST Report and it is an eye opener. They played some neat hanky panky with it complete with unsupported assumptions, unlabeled speculation mixed in with factual statement, and it made no analysis at all of how the collapse proceeded once it began. They just wave their magic wand and say it fell. Here's a link if you're curious: 911research.wtc7.net/essays/nist/index.html

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   2:55:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: abraxas (#127)

Interesting how people are rapidly coming back up to "fighting trim" with a little bit of shill activity on the board. Despite the annoyance I think it has had some beneficial affects. I know it has caused me to tighten my game back up a bit. I didn't realize how sloppy I was getting with little real opposition. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   2:59:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: IRTorqued (#123)

we save broken tungsten cutters and bits a pound of them will get a person about seven federal reserve units. notice I didn't say dollars as those must by law contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four sixteenth parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard silver.

Understood on both aspects.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   3:01:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Original_Intent, abraxas (#129)

I didn't realize how sloppy I was getting with little real opposition. ;-)

I would agree with that.

sorry, couldn't resist.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-18   3:31:21 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: buckeroo, All (#111)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-18   8:04:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Original_Intent (#129)

Interesting how people are rapidly coming back up to "fighting trim" with a little bit of shill activity on the board.

You know, I'm willing to show some courtesy, maybe even sympathy, for a person who is a "true believer" but for those who outright lie to hold a position such mercy is not acceptable.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   10:56:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: farmfriend, Original_Intent (#131)

Yeah, I too have had it with all of this sloppy business around here.

Get it together, Sloppy Joe!! ; } lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   11:09:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: bush_is_a_moonie, buckeroo, turtle (#64) (Edited)

Also spend some time reading Moron Oliver North's diary entries at the National Security Archive - GWU. This should dispel any ideas you might have about our own government and personnel refusing to engage in these types of things.

Tell me where Oliver North admits anywhere to plotting and killing Americans.

I have never questioned whether there are are Americans within the various centers of power who were willing to look the other way to allow 911 to happen, from someone who had already spent a decade gradually escalating lethal worldwide attacks that took hundreds of lives and scores of American lives.

Neither is over one fourth of America's general population. Where they and I draw the line is a blanket pronouncement that a government that can't even run itself, somehow ran the largest conspiracy with world history with perfect precision without zero credible forensic or first hand eyewitness evidence of it to this day.

You Six Percenters are always going with the most extreme and most unprovable scenarios. This is a classic symptom of a false front operative who seeks to marginalize opposition into indefensible positions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   11:45:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: abraxas (#127)

It is extremely dishonest to ignore the multiple witnesses who said very clearly that the explosions were on the SUB FLOORS of the building

It is extremely dishonest to say that the eyewitnesses in your own video directly link whatever they call explosions with an aircraft crashing into the building and having the results of that crash go down through the core column, the elevator shafts, and the stairwells.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   11:48:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Original_Intent (#128)

The entire NIST theory rests upon the removal of all 80,000 square feet of the fireproofing/SFRM in each of the impact zones of the towers.

The problem is, NIST never provides any credible evidence of substantial testing and research of this said phenomenon.

Cartoon computer models are only as reliable as the data put in.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2010-07-18   11:59:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: AGAviator (#136)

They discuss explosions at the time of initial plane impact and prior to the buildings collapsing........you are the only one cherry picking content to fit your story telling.

The explosions prior to the collapse, with people running away and describing said explosions are completely ignored by you because they don't fit with the story you are trying to pawn off on the lot of us.

The information I presented discusses multiple explosions at various times, you are the only one opting to cling to one explosion and ignore all the others. Very dishonest......and you know it.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   12:09:14 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: IRTorqued (#90)

now correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the upper building mass sitting on top of the lower building mass from the day the building was completed and resisted falling all those years up to 9-11-01?

Yeah, til all the unfortunate circumstances with Santa Claus, the Magickal Jet Fuel™ and the Easter Bunny. If that hadn't all happened at the same time maybe the tragedy could have been averted.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   12:11:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: IRTorqued (#107)

it would seem James explanation must be the case, it was that danged Magickal Jet Fuel™, that wreaked havoc that fateful day.

Yes, I am thankful that they never made but one batch of that. Ounce for ounce that stuff must be more powerful than atom bombs.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   12:15:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: IRTorqued (#125)

the only way any of the crap bucky copies and paste as part of his duties as a ranking member of the liar movement to have even a shred of accuracy is if that crap started out "once upon a time"

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   12:19:47 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: abraxas, buckeroo, (#138)

They discuss explosions at the time of initial plane impact and prior to the buildings collapsing........you are the only one cherry picking content to fit your story telling.

There were no explosions reported prior to aircraft impacts. Not on your posted, not on anybody else's other statements anywhere.

So now you have two sets of phenomena to explain, (1) Why explosions reported immediately after the aircraft crashes are not caused by the aircraft crashes, and (2) Why and how the explosions reported immediately after the aircraft crashes did take place with methods and means not at all connected to those crashes.

These explanations have not been done over the last 8 1/2 years in spite of thousands of claims made on hundreds or thousands of internet sites. Yet the people pushing these claims still claim after all this time that they are the ones with the truth and anybody who challenges their unproven versions of events is on the side of their imagined enemy, an all-powerful government that can't even manage its own wars and administration but nevertheless has been able to flawlessly pull off the most complex conspiracy in world history.

Now that's what's dishonest.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-18   12:54:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Kamala (#137)

The entire NIST theory rests upon the removal of all 80,000 square feet of the fireproofing/SFRM in each of the impact zones of the towers.

The problem is, NIST never provides any credible evidence of substantial testing and research of this said phenomenon.

In addition to providing no validating data for the assumptions on the fireproofing or the angles at which the aircraft hit the building they provide no validation for the number of central column support beams severed, show them as smaller than the perimeter columns (which the were not they were substantially LARGER), and provide no sound justification for the internal temperatures that they allege existed in the core prior to collapse.

Cartoon computer models are only as reliable as the data put in.

And they are only as honest as the person running the model. You could make the model sing "The Battle Hymm of The Republic" with the right input parameters. NIST, very unscientifically for a purported investigation, assumes a conclusion and then sets out to validate that conclusion. Their supposed validation has so many flaws, half truths, and outright subterfuge that one cannot escape the conclusion that their modeling DID NOT validate their concluision and so they had to "adjust" the parameters to make the real world fit the model.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   15:33:25 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: AGAviator, abraxas, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, all (#142)

There were no explosions reported prior to aircraft impacts. Not on your posted, not on anybody else's other statements anywhere.

And that is a flat out lie. See the testimony of William Rodriquez who was lauded as a hero for the number of lives he saved. And then villified for providing testimony directly contradictory to the "Official Fairy Tale™".

Link to source (although his testimony and witness is widely available).

Excerpt From Interview:

"...On September 11, 2001, Rodriguez, who worked for American Building Maintenance, was 30 minutes late for work arriving at 8:30 a.m. After leaving his backpack in his closet on the 33rd floor he went to his company office in the tower's basement.

At 8:45, he was talking with his supervisor in the first basement level, B1, when he heard and felt a tremendous explosion. Rodriguez told AFP that he felt the first explosion come from a lower basement level. The towers had 6 basement levels.

The building shook, the ceiling fell, and some of the sprinklers began spraying.

"Oh my God, what happened?" Rodriguez, who survived the first bombing of the WTC in 1993, told AFP he recalled saying to his boss. "I think it was the electrical generators."

No sooner had he spoken these words than a second explosion shook the building, this time coming from the upper part of the tower. This second shock, Rodriguez said, shook the building and cracked the walls. "The building moved," he said.

At this point, Felipe David, a Honduran who worked for Aramark and maintained the tower's vending machines, appeared before Rodriguez with his arms outstretched. "It looked like clothing was hanging from his fingers," Rodriguez said, "but it was the skin from his arms."

"Explosion, explosion," David said. "The elevator, the elevator."

Rodriguez then felt a third explosion coming from above. "The ground was shaking," he said. "I thought it was an earthquake." ..."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-18   15:46:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: Original_Intent, Kamala, AGAviator (#143)

In addition to providing no validating data for the assumptions on the fireproofing or the angles at which the aircraft hit the building they provide no validation for the number of central column support beams severed, show them as smaller than the perimeter columns (which the were not they were substantially LARGER), and provide no sound justification for the internal temperatures that they allege existed in the core prior to collapse.

>> Cartoon computer models are only as reliable as the data put in.

And they are only as honest as the person running the model. You could make the model sing "The Battle Hymm of The Republic" with the right input parameters. NIST, very unscientifically for a purported investigation, assumes a conclusion and then sets out to validate that conclusion. Their supposed validation has so many flaws, half truths, and outright subterfuge that one cannot escape the conclusion that their modeling DID NOT validate their concluision and so they had to "adjust" the parameters to make the real world fit the model.

Both of you are genuinely well read on Griffin's article, of which I reference here: The Mysterious Collapse of WTC7 by David Ray Griffin, yet there are no FACTS other than spinning this charlatan around in a vacuous washtub with old soap.

Do you guys have the capability to stand on your own feet and discuss the original article as opposed to hiding behind the wild cover-ups of a cheap, charlatan?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   15:48:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: AGAviator (#142)

I'm not interested in your dishonesty about the contents of the video. I know what the WITNESSES stated.......only you think you know more about what they witnessed despite being far, far away.

There has always been this unexplained EXPLOSION phenomenon, since 9-11-2001. However,the government story you cling to with ALL YOUR MIGHT ignores these people, especially that janitor at the end of the video who saved peoples' lives from the EXPLOSIONS in the sub floor areas prior to collapse.

YOU, nowhere near the buildings (kissing government ass in another state I suspect), claim that YOU know more about these explosions that frickin' EYE WITNESSES and people who WORKED in the buildings and people who SAVED LIVES on that day. YOU and the government can IGNORE them, but that only discredits your official bullshit story more.

You run along and tell these people who were there that they are full of shit and only YOU know the truth of the matter. I know, not only are you a liar but you are also a coward who wouldn't say word one to them if you had them front and center, but it's real easy to talk shit about what they witnessed from such a distance.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-18   15:53:33 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: AGAviator (#135)

What are you jabbering about?

bush_is_a_moonie  posted on  2010-07-18   16:10:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: abraxas (#146)

Good post, abraxas.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-18   16:18:59 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: Eric Stratton (#132)

You haven't seen the hundreds of people, hundreds of fucking people, saying exactly that on youtube?!?! Firefighters, police, "average joe" citizens, ...

I am not questioning the sincerity and authenticity of a few opinions and points of view based upon a disaster wherein thousands panicked for their own lives and ran to possible safety to allude their own deaths.

But a relative few stories taken into perspective with a much larger view shows little or no substance towards what really happened.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:33:10 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Original_Intent (#129)

Despite the annoyance

ROTFL ... you can't argue your way with facts on any level.... but, I must say ... you can look pretty in your tutu dancing on the stage with a couple of suggestions while dancing and prancing around the main central theme of the thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-18   16:36:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  



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