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Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source:
BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
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Keywords: None
Views: 24336
Comments: 1209
An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks. The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total. One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition". The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell. Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York. After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001. This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking"). Resistance to collapse Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics. Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures. Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts. "The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website. Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse. His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down. This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground. 'Fair assumption' The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell". "One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen. The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings. The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center. This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers. Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble. Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse. Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design.
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#425. To: AGAviator (#422)
Comparatively the inner core of the building held up the entire structure not the outer paper thin skeleton.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Oh crap, Buck, you were four huuuunnnnnnnneeeeerrrrrrrrttttt too.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Molten metal found at the bottom of the debris piles, after several weeks of spraying water onto heated iron, producing an exothermic reaction known in the 1800's, does not count. The discussion is supposed to be about molten metal pre collapse coming from the vicinity of the 80th floor.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Er, that doesn't exlain how thermite residue found it's way into the debris. Why would the lower floors buckle under the weight that they had been made to carry? Unless, of course, the 24 steal columns were severed, allowing the weight to cause collapse. Here's your link, although you won't read it: www.bentham- open.org/pages/content.php? TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM The Open Chemical Physics Journal Volume 2 ISSN: 1874-4125 Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe pp.7-31 (25) Authors: Niels H. Harrit, Jeffrey Farrer, Steven E. Jones, Kevin R. Ryan, Frank M. Legge, Daniel Farnsworth, Gregg Roberts, James R. Gourley, Bradley R. Larsen doi: 10.2174/1874412500902010007
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Yet there WERE external columns across all 4 walls, yet they seemingly disappear all at the same instant in time, on at least 3 different floors, the top floors, the floors between the top and the damaged section, and the damaged section itself. Two of those floors weren't even damaged. How did they all disappear at once I wonder, along with total immediate failure of the inner multi-column core in 3 different locations, all at the same time...
There absolutely is - the color is wrong for aluminum and right for steel. Molten aluminum is silver not red orange. And you and Eagar can pound the table all day long and it does not change that FACT. It is dishonest to say so and a Professor of "Materials Science" knows better. For a detailed analysis read: www.journalof911studies.c...ngsCompletelyCollapse.pdf While I cannot cite conclusive evidence - thermite/thermate melts steel. Nanothermites painted over a section of steel would be perfectly capable of turning it into a molten state. Hydrocarbon fires do not generate sufficient heat to melt steel. Neither do office fires which are mostly Class Alpha - wood and paper (although synthetic carpet would be made from petrochemicals and thus would be Class Bravo). Regardless the two types of fuel posited are jet fuel and wood/paper do not get hot enough to melt either. Particularly in an oxygen starved fire as evidenced by the heavy black soot.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Yawn. Steel is not iron. It is an alloy of iron and other metals. As well your red herring does not explain how, 8 weeks after 911, the steel was still hot enough to generate your red herring.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Debunking Molten Steel Myth Note the color of the substance as it cools and solidifies toward the end of its journey. Molten steel would turn almost black. One thing it's not, and that's black. Jones writes: "This is a point worth emphasizing: aluminum has low emissivity and high reflectivity, so that in daylight conditions molten aluminum will appear silvery-gray" I think at a cooler temperature, he's right. What's telling about this photo isn't that it's proof of the substance being aluminum, It's that it's a zoom and crop of the photo from Jones own paper. (Time for him to change yet another one of his photos.) Below is a screenshot from National Geographic's "Inside 911". The droplets on the outside of the center of the fall seem to be the color of aluminum siding to me.. As I said, the evidence points to it being aluminum. Below is a message from Stephen D. Chastain of Metal Talk. Several times over the last year I have been asked to comment on a photo of one of the Trade Center Towers. The photo shows a molten flow The questions usually want me to address "Is this photo a fake?" and "Is the flow steel or aluminum?" "Is this situation possible?" First, I will address the temperature range, then the color of the flow. I am working in imperial units and temperature in degrees F [To convert to C use this link] Metals lose about 50% of their strength at 60% of their melting temperature. This is common knowledge and may be found in any undergraduate text regarding "Fracture and Deformation of Materials." If the approximate melting temperature of steel is 2750 F the the material would be plastic at 1650 F. Even assuming a safety factor of 3, you would expect the bolts or other structural members to deform and fail near this temperature, especially with the additional weight if a jet air liner. I would assume that the live load calculations did not include the typical office equipment and an airliner plus a factor of 3. THEREFORE I assume that the flow is not steel and that the temperature of the steel members at the time of the photo is less than 1650 F. Assuming that the flow would be molten aluminum from the airliner and the color of molten aluminum is silver then why is the flow orange? The color of pure molten aluminum is silver, It has an emissivity of .12. Steel has an emissivity of .4 and appears orange in the temperature range of molten aluminum. The emissivity of aluminum oxide is .44 and also appears orange in the melting temperature range of molten aluminum. The emissivity of plate glass is .937 It begins to soften at 1000 F and flows around 1350 F. Silica has an emissivity of .8 Copper oxide also has an emissivity of .8. however I will assume that their effect is negligible. Aluminum oxidizes readily in the foundry under ideal melting conditions. Large surface area relative to thickness, turbulence, the presence of water or oil greatly increases the oxidation of aluminum. A jet airliner is made of thin aluminum sheet and most probably suffered considerable oxidation especially in contact with an open flame and being in contact with jet fuel. If you don't believe this, try melting a few soda cans over coals or open flame. If you are lucky you will end up with only 50% aluminum oxide. However, the cans may completely burn up. The specific gravity of aluminum is 2.7. The specific gravity of aluminum oxide (Al2O3-3H2O) is 2.42 the specific gravity of Si = 2.40 and Glass is 2.65 these are all very similar and likely to be entrained in a molten aluminum flow. Don't believe it? lightly stir the dross into molten aluminum. The surface tension is so high is is almost impossible to separate them. THEREFORE assuming that the flow consist of molten aluminum and considerable oxides, and assuming that the windows in the trade center were plate glass and also in a plastic state and that they were also likely entrained in the molten aluminum. I would expect the flow to appear to be orange in color. Especially since both the entrained materials have emissivities equal to or more than twice that of iron. Also since dross cools to a gray color and glass with impurities also turns dark. I would expect that the flow would darken upon cooling. I would also suggest that not only is the photo possible, but entirely likely. Summary: The flow is not steel because the structural steel would fail well below the melting temperature. The flow is likely to be a mixture of aluminum, aluminum oxides, molten glass and coals of whatever trash the aluminum flowed over as it reached the open window. Such a flow would appear orange and cool to a dark color. Stephen D. Chastain The color means nothing. The color can be misleading, and because it can be misleading, it means nothing as evidence. This is not aluminum in a foundry which hasn't mixed with anything. This is a cocktail ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As well your red herring does not explain how, 8 weeks after 911, the steel was still hot enough
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Never in a million years will you win this argument. (Only 14 seconds) 9/11 firefighters recall the molten steel at the WTC
Exhibit "B" (Only 11 seconds) A firefighter describes the heat under the rubble of Ground Zero, which is sufficient to melt boots.
Red hot pools of molten steel (Only 35 seconds long) WTC workers describe pools of molten steel at Ground Zero
Stephen D. Chastain is a nobody who is attempting to sell his wares............lol. Here he is denying the light specttrum that far greater minds have held firm to for centuries. Yeah, Stephen D. Chastain is YOUR man.........hahahahahahahahaha
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Not shown to be steel, which melts at over 1600 degrees C, and not shown to be melted - all that's visible is gray smoke coming from a solid trash pile. From the video Red hot" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Light spectra do not have same properties for ad hoc mixtures of various substances as they do for pure elements. The WTC crash sites were places where many different kinds of substances were mixed together and burned. They cannot be expected to conform to rules and spectra charts made for individual highly purified elements.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would assume THEREFORE I assume I would expect I would also suggest Assuming that THEREFORE assuming I would expect How many times does this Stephen D. Chastain need to repeat, "I assume" before you catch on to the fact that he's making an ASS out of YOU and any other warm body who is willing to waste time listening to him? OMG, this is the "expert" you are banking your debunking upon.......lol. Hahahahahahahaha........you're frickin' killin' me. Oh yeah, he asumes and expects.......what a find you have in this guys contribution to the color spectrum of various metals burning.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Just read the frick'n analysis from YOUR GOLDEN BOY AND EXPERT DEBUNKER. lol........my side is hurtin' from laughing at you.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
This dupe can't produce anything greater than assumption and spectulation. You go on and trust him as to WHAT IS BURNING for three weeks as moleten metal in the 911 debris........as for me, I will seek more intelligent ground. The villiage idiot will concede that office chairs and dry wall don't burn for three frickin' weeks. Hello, dimwit, ALL ELEMENTS CONFORM TO THE RULES OF THE SPECRA........there are NO exceptions, not even your "highly purified elements" whatever the fuck you are claiming these "elements" to be...........lol
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
And now we stop for our 2 minutes hate..... Egads, Wud, you're sending me bad dreams.......lol
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Just seeing if you're still awake. Are we havin fun yet?
I'm off to dreamland dear........big day tomorrow. I think awake but distracted would be correct.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Glad you posted that so that some of the folks who think Hani Hanjour actually did what they claimed he did will know that he could NOT have done it. They get quiet when you mention that he allegedly took control somewhere in the skies over Ohio and then flew it back to the Pentagon like a stunt pilot. But at the time the plane was hijacked, even if the weather had been perfect and not a cloud in the sky, he would not have had any idea where he was over the landscape. It all looks pretty much the same from heights greater than the top of Mt. Everest. And it is certain that a man who couldn't fly a Cessna could not fly what they claimed hit the Pentagon.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Unlike Tw00fsters, Chastain does not make blanket statements about trash piles glowing orange being melted steel. He gets his facts first, and puts his conclusions last, which is the way it should be. First of all steel and other metals give precisely measured wave lengths. Not just a particular color, but a particular wave length of a particular color. This was not done. Nor were additional wave lengths of particular colors noted. Also the chemical components were not analyzed. A pile of trash burning orange does not equal pure steel melting and giving off orange.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings. Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Who can find the facts amid all of his speculating and assuming? His conclusion is based on his assumptions, not any facts.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
The most difficult parts of pilot tests are takoffs and landings. Take-offs and landings in a Cessna are relatively easy, with the take-off being such that just about ANYONE could do it. Flying is the relatively easy part. Hanjour couldn't do any of the above even in a Cessna, never mind a heavy multi-engine airliner with all of the complex systems that need to be set correctly. We are supposed to believe however that he brought the plane down from 35,000 feet to treetop level at 400+ mph, then performed a manuever not any professional pilot could pulloff, and that is to descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph (which is basically performing a landing), defying the laws of aerodynamics (in terms of ground effect), flying straight and level directly into the Pentagon wall. Yeah right. Hanjour didn't have to do either when he took over an aircraft already airborne and intended to be crashed, not landed. Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).
And when did this amazing transformation happen and what could have caused it? Playing around and getting drunk in nudie bars? Did that transform him into an ace pilot? I see aggravator is still "catapulting the propaganda." Must have taken some training in Dubya's school for liars.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Maybe he read about it in a book that he found on eBay called, "how to fly an airliner better than a pro".
Reckon he got the last copy? I would like to get one of those. Learn how to fly my big plane 500 mph 20 feet over my Pentalawn and not scuff it up. Yeah, that's the ticket! If you find that any of those are still available let me know.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. You could put it on a wish list on eBay or Amazon... LOL
Once again, you mindlessly parrot bull$hit from ko00ksites, try to pass it off as truth, and call anybody who disagrees with your $hitpile a liar and a government agent. Hanjour actually got a commercial pilot license in 1999 but was unable to get a job. However in 2001 he was showing problems. At the same time he was taking advanced simulator training, so he knew his way around the school enough to put in a spotty performance. Again, takeoffs and landings are by far the most difficult parts of flight trainings. Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling. Furthermore the Pentagon crash itself shows an inexperirenced pilot. The wings were rocking on the final approach, and he went in to the back of the building because the plane got away from him when he tried to hit the Potomac-facing north face of the building which was where the high value target offices including Rumsfeld's were. The Pentagon hit had little or no destructive value as far as harming the US interests. Haji Hanjour ... However, in January 2001, Arizona JetTech flight school managers reported him to the FAA at least five times because his English was inadequate for the commercial pilot’s certificate he had already obtained. It took him five hours to complete an oral exam meant to last just two hours, said Peggy Chevrette. Hanjour failed UA English classes with a 0.26 GPA and a JetTech manager said “He could not fly at all.” His FAA certificate had become invalid late in 1999 when he failed to take a mandatory medical examination. In February, Hanjour began advanced simulator training in Mesa Arizona Hanjour continued with simulator training because that was where he could practice flying an airplane already airborne and crashing it into a target on a preplanned route, and not have to bother with the other parts of flying including speaking English he could not care less about.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That would be funny, wouldn't it? How would you word it? Something like "I want a copy of the book that turned an idiot who couldn't fly a Cessna into an ace pilot who could fly heavy commercial airliners in one easy lesson. This while getting wasted in a nudie bar. Will pay top dollar." What you reckon?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Because Hanjour was not interested in takeoffs and landings he did not have to do well on those most difficult parts of the schooling. HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! He LANDED a 757 on the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph, short of putting down his wheels, and FLEW IT STRAIGHT INTO THE WALL. Of course such a feat is virtually IMPOSSIBLE, yet he supposedly did it anyways. What don't you understand here?
From the New York Times Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. "I'm still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon," the former employee said. He could not fly at all." Bullshit. He was heading straight for the side of the Pentagon containing high ranking officers' offices, including Rumsfeld's office, THEN banked at 400 mph and turned the plane towards the other side of the Pentagon, while descending, then leveled off and headed for the Pentagon at treetop level for about a mile at 400+ mph, accelerating to 530 mph till impact.
Ohio? Why are you bringing up FLT77 on this thread? Don't you remember your "cabin door" thread of FLT77? American Airlines Flight 77 is the plane that is commonly believed to have crashed into the Pentagon. It was a Boeing 757-223 on a scheduled flight from Dulles to Los Angeles, with 58 passengers, four flight attendants, and two pilots. "we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
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"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#426. To: FormerLurker (#423)
Explain why all four corners of the damaged section decided to give way simultaneously, along with the internal core, and the external vertical columns.
#427. To: buckeroo (#400)
#428. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#424)
(Edited)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#429. To: buckeroo (#408)
#430. To: buckeroo (#426)
(Edited)
Comparatively the inner core of the building held up the entire structure not the outer paper thin skeleton.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#431. To: AGAviator (#377)
(7) Flight 77 impacted a recently-renovated portion of the Pentagon which was not fully occupied and still had construction equipment in place
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#432. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Critter, abraxas, all (#422)
Christopher Bollyn in his zeal to try to one up Dr. Eagar, fails to distinguish between a melting substance and a burning one. There is nothing inconsistent in Eagar's account with the photos of melted metal coming around the 81st floors.
#433. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, all (#428)
The discussion is supposed to be about molten metal pre collapse coming from the vicinity of the 80th floor.
#434. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#432)
(Edited)
One of the pieces of evidence Jones points to is a snapshot of the flow falling down the side the building. This pyrotechnic show seems ominous, that is until you look at it closely...
from one of the windows. The flow falls down along the building. It appears orange and turns to a gray color as it cools.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#435. To: FormerLurker (#431)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#436. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#433)
Steel is not iron. It is an alloy of iron and other metals.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#437. To: AGAviator, *9-11*, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, abraxas, James Deffenbach, all (#436)
(Edited)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#438. To: All, *9-11* (#437)
(Edited)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#439. To: All, *9-11*, *4um PSY-OP Club* (#438)
(Edited)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#440. To: AGAviator (#434)
Stephen D. Chastain The color means nothing. The color can be misleading, and because it can be misleading, it means nothing as evidence.
#441. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#439)
(Edited)
Red hot pools of molten steel
"See that stuff he's pulling out?
Not "melted," "red hot."
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#442. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#440)
Here he is denying the light specttrum that far greater minds have held firm to for centuries.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#443. To: AGAviator (#434)
It appears
#444. To: AGAviator (#442)
#445. To: AGAviator (#442)
(Edited)
The WTC crash sites were places where many different kinds of substances were mixed together and burned. They cannot be expected to conform to rules and spectra charts made for individual highly purified elements.
#446. To: abraxas (#445)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#447. To: wudidiz (#446)
#448. To: abraxas (#447)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
#449. To: wudidiz (#448)
#450. To: FormerLurker (#431)
(Edited)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#451. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#443)
what a find you have in this guys contribution to the color spectrum of various metals burning.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#452. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#450)
And it is certain that a man who couldn't fly a Cessna could not fly what they claimed hit the Pentagon.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#453. To: AGAviator (#451)
He gets his facts first, and puts his conclusions last, which is the way it should be.
#454. To: AGAviator, abraxas, James Deffenbach, buckeroo (#452)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#455. To: FormerLurker (#454)
Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#456. To: James Deffenbach (#455)
And when did this amazing transformation happen and what could have caused it? Playing around and getting drunk in nudie bars? Did that transform him into an ace pilot?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#457. To: FormerLurker (#456)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#458. To: James Deffenbach (#457)
If you find that any of those are still available let me know.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#459. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#454)
(Edited)
Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot certificate in April 1999,
but was unable to get a job as a pilot after he returned to his native Saudi Arabia, and told his family he was heading to the United Arab Emirates to find work. He took an international flight out of New York on April 28, but it is not known where he went. Within two weeks however, bank withdrawals were again made in Arizona, indicating he had returned.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#460. To: FormerLurker (#458)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#461. To: AGAviator (#459)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#462. To: AGAviator, James Deffenbach (#459)
Hanjour gained his FAA commercial pilot certificate in April 1999,
Ultimately, administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex-employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. "He didn't care about the fact that he couldn't get through the course," the ex-employee said.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#463. To: AGAviator (#459)
Furthermore the Pentagon crash itself shows an inexperirenced pilot. The wings were rocking on the final approach, and he went in to the back of the building because the plane got away from him when he tried to hit the Potomac-facing north face of the building which was where the high value target offices including Rumsfeld's were.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#464. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#454)
Besides LANDING the aircraft short of having his wheels down, AT 530 MPH (which the aircraft basically CAN'T DO), he navigated the plane from Ohio without any navigational aids in terms of ground references, so we must assume he was familiar with IFR (instrument flight rules) procedures using sophisticated flight systems and instruments, where he couldn't even fly a Cessna VFR, (visual flight rules).
At 8:20 AM, Flight 77 took off from Dulles International Airport, 10 minutes after its scheduled departure time. At 8:46, Flight 77 veered severely off course.
At 8:50, the last radio communication was made from the pilots and air traffic control. At 8:56, the jet's transponder was shut off. 1 The pilots' last transmission was "ah direct FALMOUTH American seventy seven thanks." No radio communications from the flight indicated distress. 2 The NTSB report on Flight 77 describes the plane's maneuvers in detail. It began to turn to the south at 8:55, and by 9:00 it was headed east. Shortly thereafter it began to descend from its altitude of 35,000 feet. The autopilot was engaged and disengaged multiple times. At 9:29 the plane was 35 miles west of the Pentagon flying at 7,000 feet. At 9:34 it was about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon and started a 330-degree descending right turn, bringing it to an altitude of about 2000 feet four miles southwest of the Pentagon
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