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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: 9/11 demolition theory challenged
Source: BBC
URL Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6987965.stm
Published: Sep 11, 2007
Author: staff
Post Date: 2010-07-17 17:31:29 by buckeroo
Ping List: *4um PSY-OP Club*     Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*
Keywords: None
Views: 24453
Comments: 1209

An analysis of the World Trade Center collapse has challenged a conspiracy theory surrounding the 9/11 attacks.

The study by a Cambridge University engineer demonstrates that once the collapse of the twin towers began, it was destined to be rapid and total.

One of many conspiracy theories proposes that the buildings came down in a manner consistent with a "controlled demolition".

The study suggests a different explanation for how the towers fell.

Over 2,800 people were killed in the devastating attacks on New York.

After reviewing television footage of the Trade Center's destruction, engineers had proposed the idea of "progressive collapse" to explain the way the twin towers disintegrated on 11 September 2001.

This mode of structural failure describes the way the building fell straight down rather than toppling, with each successive floor crushing the one beneath (an effect called "pancaking").

Resistance to collapse

Dr Keith Seffen set out to test mathematically whether this chain reaction really could explain what happened in Lower Manhattan six years ago. The findings are to be published in the Journal of Engineering Mechanics.

Previous studies have tended to focus on the initial stages of collapse, showing that there was an initial, localised failure around the aircraft impact zones, and that this probably led to the progressive collapse of both structures.

Man stands amid rubble of the World Trade Center, AFP/Getty Once the collapse began, it was destined to be "rapid and total" In other words, the damaged parts of the tower were bound to fall down, but it was not clear why the undamaged building should have offered little resistance to these falling parts.

"The initiation part has been quantified by many people; but no one had put numbers on the progressive collapse," Dr Seffen told the BBC News website.

Dr Seffen was able to calculate the "residual capacity" of the undamaged building: that is, simply speaking, the ability of the undamaged structure to resist or comply with collapse.

His calculations suggest the residual capacity of the north and south towers was limited, and that once the collapse was set in motion, it would take only nine seconds for the building to go down.

This is just a little longer than a free-falling coin, dropped from the top of either tower, would take to reach the ground.

'Fair assumption'

The University of Cambridge engineer said his results therefore suggested progressive collapse was "a fair assumption in terms of how the building fell".

"One thing that confounded engineers was how falling parts of the structure ploughed through undamaged building beneath and brought the towers down so quickly," said Dr Seffen.

The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses, AP Conspiracy theorists see evidence of a "controlled detonation" He added that his calculations showed this was a "very ordinary thing to happen" and that no other intervention, such as explosive charges laid inside the building, was needed to explain the behaviour of the buildings.

The controlled detonation idea, espoused on several internet websites, asserts that the manner of collapse is consistent with synchronised rows of explosives going off inside the World Trade Center.

This would have generated a demolition wave that explained the speed, uniformity and similarity between the collapses of both towers.

Conspiracy theorists assert that these explosive "squibs" can actually be seen going off in photos and video footage of the collapse. These appear as ejections of gas and debris from the sides of the building, well below the descending rubble.

Other observers say this could be explained by debris falling down lift shafts and impacting on lower floors during the collapse.

Dr Seffen's research could help inform future building design. Subscribe to *4um PSY-OP Club*

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#950. To: buckeroo (#945)

FACT3: The WTC Towers fell at times far slower than "freefall time" no matter where you believe the calculation should be computed from.

This means you are full of hot-aire about YOUR demolition conspiracy theory.

15 SECONDS is NOT "far slower" than a "freefall time" of 9 SECONDS, halfwit.


9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: Explosive Evidence at WTC Cited by Former CDI Employee
Source: Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth
URL Source: http://www.ae911truth.org/news/41- a ... ed-by-former-cdi-employee.html
Published: Jun 24, 2010
Author: Darcy Wearing and Richard Gage, AIA
Post Date: 2010-07-22 13:31:56 by FormerLurker
Ping List: *9-11*
Keywords: 911, WTC Collapse, Controlled Demolition
Views: 115
Comments: 21

Explosive Evidence at WTC Cited by Former CDI EmployeePDFPrintE-mail
News - News Releases By AE911Truth
Written by Darcy Wearing and Richard Gage, AIA   
Thursday, 24 June 2010 18:55

Having had the privilege of speaking with Tom Sullivan, an actual explosive-charge placement technician, we have some new insights to pass along as to how controlled demolition works, where it started, and the effect that 9/11 had on the demolition industry. Sullivan gained his experience as an employee of the leading firm in this field, Controlled Demolition, Inc. (CDI).  Sullivan stresses though “I do not in anyway represent CDI and what I have to say is based on my own experience and training,”

Sullivan attended high school with Doug Loizeaux of the Loizeaux family. The Loizeaux family, through the father Jack, independently started the whole controlled-demolition industry and turned it into a highly profitable business. Sullivan, before he became connected to CDI, was an independent photographer during his early years in Maryland. He would be sent to CD sites and take still pictures of the jobs.  He became infatuated with the CD industry. The time came when he would do both, being the placer of the “cutter charges” on the primary joints, and photographing the jobs for promoting the business. Soon he would switch to full-time employee status of CDI -- as verified by AE911Truth’s verification team.

"It was very interesting, but also very hard work, long hours, especially in the cold weather," Sullivan reflects. He stated that the days began early, around 6 a.m., and they would work until the sun was down. Sullivan had the experience of preparing a building by placing the cutter charges throughout the primary joints, and then, of course, watching it all come down.

Sullivan notes that many weeks are required to “prep,” or weaken the buildings before demolitions. Steel frame buildings don’t just fall into their footprints at free-fall without major work throughout the building – even some before the placement of explosives.  Sullivan emphasized as an aside, “Fire cannot bring down steel-framed high rises -- period.”

One of Sullivan’s most exciting jobs was the colossal Kingdome in whose reinforced concrete structure he personally placed hundreds of deadly explosive charges. 

Working for CDI was, Sullivan stated, “a very unique experience.”  He also said, "they were a close-knit family -- referring to the familial values of the Loizeauxs." “I learned from watching," said Sullivan. "There is no school that will teach you this, just hands on hard work." Sullivan took hundreds of project photos, through which he developed a deep passion for the trade.

When asked, what made CDI the best in the business, he commented, “their family had all the experience because they ’invented’ the art of CD. They spent years traveling around the world, showing and educating people how this art form works.”

Unfortunately, the business came to a screeching halt after 9/11. "People were scared -- if they were to hear a loud bang it was probably some kind of terrorist attack," says Sullivan in frustration. "Fear took over and there was no more business." Even Mark Loizeaux (CDI’s President) has been quoted as saying 9/11 ruined him. Sullivan had no choice but to leave CDI. Curiously, CDI had a role in the WTC cleanup through a subcontract under Tully Construction. On September 22, 2001, CDI submitted a 25-page "preliminary" document to New York City's Department of Design and Construction, a plan related to the removal and recycling of the steel. [¹]

Sullivan stated that he knew from the first day that the destruction of World Trade Center Building 7 on 9/11 was a classic controlled implosion. Asked how he thought it might have been done he posited, “looking at the building it wouldn’t be a problem -- once you gain access to the elevator shafts…then a team of expert loaders would have hidden access to the core columns and beams.  The rest can be accomplished with just the right kind of explosives for the job. Thermite can be used as well.”

Brent Blanchard, the photographer from the controlled demolition company Protec, has said, in criticism of the CD theory, that there would have had to been detonation cords strung all over the place and casings left in the rubble pile from the cutter charges.  So we asked for a response from Sullivan.  He noted that:

Remote wireless detonators have been available for years. Look at any action movie -- and of course the military has them.  The reason most contractors don’t use them is that they are too expensive -- but in a project with a huge budget it would be no problem. As for the casings -- everyone in the industry, including Blanchard, would know that RDX explosive cutter charges are completely consumed when they go off -- nothing is left. And in the case of Thermite cutter charges, that may also be the case. Thermite self-consuming cutter charge casings have been around since first patented back in 1984.

We asked Sullivan if all the floors in WTC  7 would have to be loaded with explosives in order for a successful controlled demolition.  He responded,

No, with steel framed buildings you really need only to load the bottom third to bring the building down. While at CDI we had a job in Hartford Conn, the CNG building, where we did just that.  And it worked out beautifully.

Recalling that Ron Craig, a Hollywood movie explosions expert claimed in a debate with us, that there would have been many blocks of broken windows if it were a controlled demolition.  Sullivan reflected,

The key word here is controlled demolition – in other words careful placement of charges -- always focused and precise.  We are not talking about setting off a bomb here.  The amount and type of explosives is an art and collateral damage can often be completely avoided.

We asked about Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator of NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) who claimed publically in his infamous press conference at the “unveiling” of the Final Report on the Collapse of World Trade Center Building 7 that there would have been a loud boom coming from a massive explosion if this had been a controlled demolition, and asked him about that.  Sullivan said, “With any implosion there is never just one big explosion but rather waves of smaller explosions -- not unlike the percussion section in a symphony - - as each loaded floor is progressively set off.”

And as Sullivan watched the towers collapse that day, like so many did, he pondered at how fast it all took place, and how suddenly and symmetrically they were brought down. "I knew it was an explosive event as soon as I saw it, there was no question in my mind," said Sullivan. Most of us agree -- it's not by chance that the first tower just happened to collapse -- then the second in the same manner. What convinced him completely is when he watched Tower 7 fall that day, "I mean, come on, it was complete destruction. I've seen buildings fall like that for years -- that was the end game for me." Keep in mind that Sullivan did this for a living for several years -- it is like second nature for him to see this type of demolition. If anybody would know, it should be him.  But we went ahead and asked him, “Is there any chance that normal office fires (the official cause of the ’collapse’) could have been responsible for the smooth, symmetrical, free-fall acceleration of building 7? “Not a chance,” he retorted. We just wanted to be sure.

When we asked him if he followed any of the 9/11 Commission hearings or that of the NIST reporting, he had the same answer for both "I have no tolerance for people who lie to me about what I know to be true. I threw my hands up in disgust and never watched another hearing after the first. As for NIST, I didn't even watch because I knew what to expect." He did however follow the final report on the collapse of Tower 7 and said it angered him that they could actually convince so many of their fraudulent claims.

Sullivan first came into contact with AE911Truth through a friend that sent him the 9/11: Blueprint for Truth DVD. He watched it and was very excited that there was actually an organization out there trying to inform people of what he was trying to say since that fateful day. “AE911Truth is the most focused and organized group there is today in the 9/11 truth movement.  There is no speculation," he said. "Blueprint for Truth is factual and impressive information based on science and physics, and was clear and concise." When asked if he agreed with the evidence the DVD brings forth, Sullivan responded, "It contains extremely compelling evidence."

The final question we asked in this interview was, "How many architects and engineers does it take speaking in unison until people hear that there is a problem?" His response, "As the number grows it will be harder and harder to deny them -- but deny them they will."

Note: 1) Sullivan came out from the East Coast to deliver a short but electrifying presentation on Friday and Saturday night, May 7th & 8th at the joint presentation of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth and Firefighters for 9/11 Truth.  He joined Richard Gage, AIA, and Erik Lawyer on stage for 10 minutes and answered some key questions about the demolition industry, the CDI family of Loizeauxs, and the way the 3 WTC skyscrapers were destroyed.  Prior to these milestone events he appeared with Gage and Lawyer on KPFA radio Berkeley on the program “Guns & Butter” with host Bonnie Faulkner who had a number of great questions for him.

2) "DO NOT COPY" watermarks on images were added by Tom Sullivan. These images may not be copied other than in the context of this article, or with his specific approval.


Download High-Quality Video Clips

/

WTC Building #7, a 47-story high-rise not hit by an airplane, exhibited all the characteristics of classic controlled demolition with explosives:

1.   Rapid onset of "collapse"

2.   Sounds of explosions at ground floor - a second before the building's destruction

3.   Symmetrical "structural failure" -- through the path of greatest resistance -- at free-fall acceleration

4.   Imploded, collapsing completely, and landed in its own footprint

5.   Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds

6.   Expert corroboration from the top European Controlled Demolition professional

7.   Fore-knowledge of "collapse" by media, NYPD, FDNY

The in the aftermath of WTC7's destruction, strong evidence of demolition using incendary devices was discovered:

8. FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranu lar melting on structural steel samples

9. Several tons of molten metal reported by numerous highly-qualified witnesses

10. Chemical signature of thermite (high tech incendiary) found in solidified molten metal, and dust samples

WTC7 exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.

1.   Slow onset with large visible deformations

2.   Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, to the side most damaged by the fires)

3.   Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel

4.   High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never "collapsed".

As seen in this revealing photo, the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all of the characteristics of destruction by explosives:

  1. Destruction proceeds through the path of greatest resistance at nearly free-fall acceleration
  2. Improbable symmetry of debris distribution
  3. Extremely rapid onset of destruction
  4. Over 100 first responders reported explosions and flashes
  5. Multi-ton steel sections ejected laterally
  6. Mid-air pulverization of 90,000 tons of concrete & metal decking
  7. Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic-like clouds
  8. 1200-foot-dia. debris field: no "pancaked" floors found
  9. Isolated explosive ejections 20 – 40 stories below demolition front
  10. Total building destruction: dismemberment of steel frame
  11. Several tons of molten metal found under all 3 high-rises
  12. Evidence of thermite incendiaries found by FEMA in steel samples
  13. Evidence of explosives found in dust samples
  14. No precedent for steel-framed high-rise collapse due to fire

And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.

  1. Slow onset with large visible deformations
  2. Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
  3. Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
  4. High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:01:28 ET  (10 images) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#951. To: AGAviator (#944)

Fuck you, Half Truther.

You are pwned!!!!

No FUCK YOU Full Liar, YOU are "pwned".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:02:19 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#952. To: FormerLurker, Agaviator, ALL (#949)

Willful Deception

Did you notice the author has links to Hanjour's official FAA pilot certification background?

Even before your silly article I posted the same.... you are a laff a minute and behind the eightball like your pal Stutts.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:02:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#953. To: buckeroo (#952)

The documented evidence completely destroys your illusion and tap dance that Hanjour was a "skilled pilot". Even his instructors questioned the validity of his "license" and reported him to the FAA.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:03:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#954. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#942) (Edited)

And BTW, a demoltions expert from CDI DOES say the WTC towers were probably taken out with controlled demolitions.

After 8 years, the best you Half Truther k00ks can come up with is "probably?"

911 Truth ***Clarifiction** [i.e. half assed retraction]

We incorrectly identified the thermite device illustrated in this article as a "cutter charge.” But, the device as described in the patent is only an igniter heat source only used to ignite larger charges. It does not in and of itself have the capability of cutting structural steel.

We would like to also note that neither the authors nor the interviewee, Tom Sullivan, intended to imply that this particular device was used in the WTC destruction. We don’t know exactly what was used. That is why we need a thorough investigation. Our intention was to note that the technology for self consuming consolidated thermite cases existed as far back as 1984. In our DVD 9/11: Blueprint for Truth, we do show the 1999 patent for a thermite-based cutter charge which is designed to eject molten copper or iron through the orifice in “hundreds of milliseconds,” and is capable cutting through thicker structural steel more efficiently. This thermite-based cutter charge has distinct advantages over more traditional high explosive cutter charges. From the patent description:

“A primary disadvantage of explosive shaped charges is that they generate excessive noise and debris upon detonation. This noise and debris can pose potentially serious health and safety hazards to someone using a cutting device which employs conventional shaped charge explosives.

Thermite-based cutting devices which employ a cutting flame produce virtually no extended shock wave and generate relatively little over pressure. Thermite- based cutting devices do not present the same health and safety hazards which are attendant upon explosive shape charge cutting devices.

So, this may provide explanation as to why the perpetrators used such devices – if in fact they were used - in these deceptive controlled demolitions. (We do not have much evidence to conclude that they were used in the Twin Towers – whose debris pile was fairly extensively photographed).

However, in the case of WTC 7, from which we have not been provided close-up photos during the clean-up process, we do have very interesting documentation from FEMA BPAT Report in Appendix C, along with photos and witnesses of pools of molten metal, which may provide such evidence. The authors describe severe high temperature corrosion, intergranular melting, rapid oxidation, and evaporation of the ends of steel structural members. Remember, WTC 7 was not the extreme explosive event that the Twin Towers were. It was an implosion, during which there are far fewer witnesses describing hearing and feeling the explosions. So it may be more likely a traditional demolition but using thermite incendiary cutter charges, where as the Twin Towers may have been destroyed with more explosive materials like C4 and the nano-thermitic composite explosives (which have been documented in other articles).

Also, it is quite conceivable, given the 16 year span of time between 1984 and 2001, that these two technologies could have been combined to produce a thermite based cutter charge whose casing is also made of consolidated thermite. This must still be researched.

Posted Clarification:

We used the Hi Ex system as an example in the article of a wireless detonation system that existed long before 9/11/01 and that was capable of stand–off distances of 5 kilometers – eliminating the requirement for “miles of detonation cord” from the actuating device. We had no intention of implying that this was the actual system used by the perpetrators at the WTC high-rises. A real investigation might reveal such secrets.

Posted Editorial Comment:

Next to the discovery of Nano-thermite in the WTC dust, the question of whether such thermite-based devices were used is a side issue -- merely one possible technology that could account for the dozens of observations of molten iron or steel in the debris pile.

In the debate about what brought down the World Trade Center, providing the grand "problem-reaction" for which the War on Terror is the alleged "solution," our position is solid on every important point. This is underscored by our critics' noisy attention to small errors such as this. The promoters of, and believers in, the official government conspiracy have always ignored or misrepresented the gross features of the three WTC towers' destruction. Those features -- the speed, symmetry, thoroughness, completeness -- have always pointed unequivocally to surreptitious demolition with explosives as the cause of that destruction. The details of how the demolitions were accomplished are largely irrelevant at this point in time, except that al Qaeda clearly lacked the access to accomplish any variant of them.

We call, once again, on everyone of conscience to evaluate impartially the evidence on both sides, as best we know it today, and join our 10,000 petition signers in the call for a new, open, subpoena-powered professional investigation, free of conflicts of interest, that will follow the scientific method and the evidence wherever it leads and let the chips fall where they may.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:09:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#955. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, ALL (#953)

The documented evidence completely destroys your illusion and tap dance that Hanjour was a "skilled pilot".

No one, that is to say, AG or myself have made that claim.... only you and your circle-jerk colleagues. I have maintained Hanjour was scared shitless actually attempting to pilot the craft.... research my references... you know how to use the edit function of your browser, don't you?

Even his instructors questioned the validity of his "license" and reported him to the FAA.

So what? He passed his exams and received certification which BLOWS your idea out the tube, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:09:22 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#956. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#954)

After 8 years, the best you [FormerLurker] Half Truther k00ks can come up with is "probably?"

I find that same "quote" so funny, I am linking it to another discussion group... with luck, we might get some new members on 4um.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:12:48 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#957. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#951)

Fuck you, Half Truther. You are pwned!!!!

No FUCK YOU Full Liar, YOU are "pwned".

Show me Hanjour's signed and dated pilot license, Two00fer.

MUAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:21:45 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#958. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle (#957)

Show me Hanjour's signed and dated pilot license, Two00fer.

Doesn't matter, he STILL could barely do anything other than fly straight once up in the air, according to his instructors.

His instructors ALSO reported him to the FAA since they didn't feel his license was valid, since he was so inept as a "pilot" and lacked the most basic skills in order to fly an airplane.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:26:26 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#959. To: buckeroo (#955) (Edited)

No one, that is to say, AG or myself have made that claim.... only you and your circle-jerk colleagues. I have maintained Hanjour was scared shitless actually attempting to pilot the craft.... research my references... you know how to use the edit function of your browser, don't you?

This hack is getting desperate and brain damaged from absorbing so many direct hits to his paper thin skull membrane especially on this thread.

I've always maintained that Hanjour was a marginal pilot whose aircraft got away from him as he hit a recently reinforced mostly vacant and militarily useless value parking lot overlooking section.

Far from being a "precision maneuver" it was a wobbling and off-angle clipping of a wall instead of a full on 90 degree direct impact.

Which section was not even fully staffed due to construction work still wrapping up. Instead of hitting north side of the Pentagon which is where the targets, offices of value,and important staff were.

The only hits of any value to al Qaeda were the NYC ones. Those actually did some substantial damage and actually exceeded bin Laden's expectations.

The other 2 hijackings were tactical failures and only served to get America more pissed off, although that did ultimately play into AQ's hands by instigating a massive revenge which has resulted in enormous killing of innocents, enormous military spending, and an ongoing threat of economic bankruptcy promised by OBL in his 2004 video.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:29:36 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#960. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#957)

Show me Hanjour's signed and dated pilot license, Two00fer.

Did you notice that footnote 35 of FormerLurker's own post @post#949 contains the FAA certifications of and about Hanjour?

Thank you FL! You are a human dyn-o-mo ... just a day late and a dollar short from original posting material by AG (whom has maintained all along that Hanjour was a pilot) ....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:29:38 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#961. To: buckeroo (#955)

So what? He passed his exams and received certification

Which according to his instructors, he should not have had. How could he pass the written exam when he didn't know enough English to take to have a chance of progressing through the various schools, and didn't have even the most basic flight skills in order to properly fly a single engine airplane?

Did you even read the extremely well-researched article which went into extensive detail?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:30:58 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#962. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#958) (Edited)

So what

Doesn't matter,

You've already demonstrated that nothing matters to a k00kswiller except stale already debunked detritus that nobody outside of a Six Percenter minority will get anywhere near to.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:32:15 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#963. To: buckeroo, AGaviator, ALL (#960)

Thank you FL! You are a human dyn-o-mo ... just a day late and a dollar short from original posting material by AG (whom has maintained all along that Hanjour was a pilot) ....

From the article...


Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single-engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:34:03 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#964. To: AGAviator (#962) (Edited)

More than 6% think WTC 7 was a controlled demolition. Matter of fact, I think you are in the minority here, retards still are last time I checked.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   20:35:00 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#965. To: AGAviator (#959)

The other 2 hijackings were tactical failures and only served to get America more pissed off

Good post, AG... it is fantastick to see FACTUAL data supported on this website.

Not many talk about FLT93 ... so far. That insidious, diabolical hijacker bastard was a flt training instructor whom nose dived ... why? Because the fucker was beaten to death death by some of the most valiant people on the planet.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:35:07 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#966. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#962)

You've already demonstrated that nothing matters to a k00kswiller except stale already debunked detritus that nobody outside of a Six Percenter minority will get anywhere near to.

From the WTC demolition article;


And as Sullivan watched the towers collapse that day, like so many did, he pondered at how fast it all took place, and how suddenly and symmetrically they were brought down. "I knew it was an explosive event as soon as I saw it, there was no question in my mind," said Sullivan. Most of us agree -- it's not by chance that the first tower just happened to collapse -- then the second in the same manner. What convinced him completely is when he watched Tower 7 fall that day, "I mean, come on, it was complete destruction. I've seen buildings fall like that for years -- that was the end game for me." Keep in mind that Sullivan did this for a living for several years -- it is like second nature for him to see this type of demolition. If anybody would know, it should be him. But we went ahead and asked him, “Is there any chance that normal office fires (the official cause of the ’collapse’) could have been responsible for the smooth, symmetrical, free-fall acceleration of building 7? “Not a chance,” he retorted. We just wanted to be sure.

When we asked him if he followed any of the 9/11 Commission hearings or that of the NIST reporting, he had the same answer for both "I have no tolerance for people who lie to me about what I know to be true. I threw my hands up in disgust and never watched another hearing after the first. As for NIST, I didn't even watch because I knew what to expect." He did however follow the final report on the collapse of Tower 7 and said it angered him that they could actually convince so many of their fraudulent claims.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:36:05 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#967. To: FormerLurker (#963)

From the article...

Your overall article comment is hacked, patch work quilt of pure, unadulterated BS. You even know it... the conclusions (without mathematics or physics) are unsupported allegations.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:37:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#968. To: AGAviator (#959) (Edited)

Far from being a "precision maneuver" it was a wobbling and off- angle clipping of a wall instead of a full on 90 degree direct impact.

Liar. And you ARE a liar extraordinaire.

From the Hanjour article;


John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well- conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:38:53 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#969. To: RickyJ, buckeroo, turtle (#964) (Edited)

More than 6% think WTC 7 was a controlled demolition

A 2006 Zogby poll actually put the number who believe "The USG did it" at 4.2%.

I am being generous when I call you Six Percenters.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:41:54 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#970. To: FormerLurker (#966)

And as Sullivan watched the towers collapse that day, like so many did, he pondered at how fast it all took place, and how suddenly and symmetrically they were brought down.

Sullivan pondered? Isn't that a quaint idea. What is Sullivan's background? Other than working as a laborer at some company?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:43:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#971. To: buckeroo (#967)

Your overall article comment is hacked, patch work quilt of pure, unadulterated BS. You even know it... the conclusions (without mathematics or physics) are unsupported allegations.

Sure it is buckie, sure it is...


  1. Statement for the Record FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry, September 26, 2002. [<-]
  2. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office," New York Times, June 19, 2002. [<-]
  3. FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers,” Washington Post, September 15, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  4. Working Draft Chronology of Events for Hijackers and Associates,” FBI, November 14, 2003 (hereafter “FBI Hijackers Timeline”), p. 41. The complete FBI timeline is available for download online. See: “Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission”, HistoryCommons.org, February 14, 2008. The timeline reads: “FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802 to [redacted] [sic].” The “[sic]” is in the original. Why the name “Hani Saleh Hanjoor” is redacted is unclear. [<-]
  5. The Final Report of the National commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, p. 225-227 (hereafter “9/11 Commission Report”). [<-]
  6. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 530. [<-]
  7. Global Security, September 14, 2001. [<-]
  8. Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” CNN, September 12, 2001. The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. [<-]
  9. ‘Get These Planes on the Ground’: Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11,83; ABC News, October 24, 2001. [<-]
  10. Prima ry Target: 189 Dead Or Missing From Pentagon Attack”, CBS News, September 21, 2001. [<-]
  11. Marc Fisher and Don Phillips, “On Flight 77: ‘Our Plane is Being Hijacked,’” Washington Post, September 12, 2001; Page A01 [<-]
  12. Steve Fainaru and Alia Ibrahim, “Mysterious Trip to Flight 77 Cockpit,” Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  13. Flight Path Study – American Airlines Flight 77,” NTSB, February 19, 2002. [<-]
  14. A copy of the NTSB video was obtained by the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth. It is available for viewing on YouTube (accessed April 8, 2010). [<-]
  15. The Pentagon,” GlobalSecurity.org. [<-]
  16. Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, “A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon, Halting the Government,” New York Times, September 12, 2001. [<-]
  17. The Pentagon,” Great Buildings Online (accessed March 27, 2010). Boeing 757 Technical Specifications from Boeing.com (accessed Marcy 27, 2010). [<-]
  18. DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation,” Department of Defense, September 15, 2001. [<-]
  19. Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<- ] [<-]
  20. FBI Summary about Alleged Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour”, Scribd.com (accessed April 6, 2010; herafter “FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour”). This document was cited by the 9/11 Commission. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) possesses the Commission’s records and has released many documents to the public. See: “9/11 Commission Records,” NARA (accessed March 28, 2010). Many of the released records are available online at Scribd.com. See: “9/11 Document Archive,” Scribd.com (accessed March 28, 2010). [<-]
  21. Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<- ]
  22. Charles M. Sennott, “Why bin Laden plot relied on Saudi hijackers,” Boston Globe, March 3, 2002. [<-]
  23. Joel Mowbray, “Visas that Should Have Been Denied,” National Review Online, October 9, 2002. [<-] [<-] [<-]
  24. FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour. [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-]
  25. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  26. David W. Chen, “Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot,” New York Times, September 18, 2001. [<-] [<-]
  27. Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks,” ABC News, October 4, 2001. [<-]
  28. Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  29. “Hanjour an unlikely terrorist,” Cape Cod Times, October 21, 2001. [<-]
  30. Carol J. Williams, John-Thor Dahlburg, and H.G. Reza, “Mainly, They Just Waited,” Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<-]
  31. V. Dion Haynes, “Algerian man didn’t try to hide, neighbors say,” Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2001. [<-]
  32. FBI Summary of Information, Lofti Raissi”, January 4, 2004. [<-] [<-]
  33. 9/11 Commission Report p. 520. [<-]
  34. Hanjour’s FAA airman documentation from the 9/11 Commission records released by NARA are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  35. Hanjour’s FAA airman records are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  36. Kellie Lunney, “FAA contractors approved flight licenses for Sept. 11 suspect,” Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  37. Report: 9/11 Hijacker Bypassed FAA,” Associated Press, September 30, 2004 [<-] [<-]
  38. Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  39. The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 12. The report notes that “To our knowledge none of them [the hijackers] had ever flown an actual airliner before.” [<-]
  40. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Sections 61.123, 61.129. Present requirements in these regards are the same as they were when Hanjour obtained his certificate. See the version revised as of January 1, 1999. [<-]
  41. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 521- 522. [<-]
  42. FBI FD-302, James Charles McRae,” April 10, 2001. [<-]
  43. Jim Yardley, “A Trainee Noted for Incompetence,” New York Times, May 4, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  44. FAA Probed, Cleared Sept. 11 Hijacker in Early 2001,” Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  45. David Hancock, “FAA Was Alerted to Sept. 11 Hijacker,” CBS News, May 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  46. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office,” New York Times, June 19, 2001 [<-]
  47. FBI Hijacker’s Timeline, p.123. [<-]
  48. Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  49. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 242. [<-]
  50. Brooke A. Masters, Leef Smith, and Michael D. Shear, “Dulles Hijackers Made Maryland Their Base,” Washington Post, September 19, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  51. Piecing together the shadowy lives of the hijackers,” Telegraph, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  52. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, November 24, 2004. [<-]
  53. FBI Hijackers Timeline, p. 150, 154, 156-157, 161-162, 166-167. [<-]
  54. Jacques Billeaud, “More Arizona ties to terror suspect,” Associated Press, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  55. "9/11 Commission Report," p. 529. The document cited by the 9/11 Commission was obtained by Intelwire.com. “FBI Memorandum, Sawyer Aviation records”, October 12, 2001. [<-]
  56. FBI FD-302, Interrogation of Tina Beth Arnold (Sawyer Aviation) ,” FBI, October 17, 2001. [<-]
  57. FBI Summary of Information, Lotfi Raissi,” FBI, January 4, 2004 [<-] [<-] [<-]
  58. William F. Jasper, “9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction," The New American, May 2, 2005. [<-]
  59. Airplane Flight: How High? How Fast? ” NASA (accessed April 17, 2010). Relative airspeed is calculated by the equation B d v2 = W, where factor B depends on the profile of a given set of wings (larger wings produce more lift), d is air density, v is velocity, and W is the airplane’s weight. At 30,000 feet, air density is about ¼ that at sea level, allowing an airliner to double its speed to produce the same amount of lift. [<-]
  60. Patrick Smith, “A sk the pilot,” Salon, May 19, 2006. [<-]
  61. What Really Happened: The 9/11 Fact File,” Der Spiegel, December 20, 2006. [<-]


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:46:49 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#972. To: buckeroo (#970)

What is Sullivan's background?

He demolished buildings using explosives, and worked for Controlled Demolition Inc.

You know, the same company your boyfriend likes to bring up as a source.

Did you even read the article?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:48:40 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#973. To: buckeroo, AGaviator, ALL (#967)

Oh and BTW, World Trade Center Building 7 DID collapse at free fall speed.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:51:09 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#974. To: FormerLurker (#971)

BFD... your article uses a few footnotes/references that are factual but don't lead to conclusions supporting the thesis.

Hanjour was a licensed pilot! You lose, pal... your own quotes from [35]....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:52:02 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#975. To: FormerLurker, blockqutoe (#968)

At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at

...

Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.

What a fucking whack

You want to allege that any attacker deliberately ignored a high value north side target, to put the plane into a turn where he clipped lamp standards and instead hit a mostly empty, mostly vacant, recently reinforced office backwater.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   20:53:23 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#976. To: AGAviator (#954)

The details of how the demolitions were accomplished are largely irrelevant at this point in time, except that al Qaeda clearly lacked the access to accomplish any variant of them.

Yep.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:54:01 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#977. To: FormerLurker (#973)

Oh and BTW, World Trade Center Building 7 DID collapse at free fall speed.

Where are the credentials of the folks that made that YouTube uplink? As far as I am concerned it is worthless data.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:55:08 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#978. To: FormerLurker (#973)

World Trade Center Building 7 DID collapse at free fall speed.

Like that should be a surprise.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   20:56:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#979. To: AGAviator (#975)

What a fucking whack

Ah, when totally proven wrong, resort to calling me a "fucking whack", how brilliant.

You want to allege that any attacker deliberately ignored a high value north side target, to put the plane into a turn where he clipped lamp standards and instead hit a mostly empty, mostly vacant, recently reinforced office backwater.

Well OF COURSE that is what would happen if the ATTACKER was NOT a "crazed raghead" who "hated us for our freedom", but rather some covert remote operator utilizing computer assisted flight control to take out an area that would do the LEAST damage.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   20:57:13 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#980. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#975)

proverbially speaking

Aren't those cool, neat facts from FL's own resource? WOW... "proverbial" has really swayed my thinking now.

ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   20:57:37 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#981. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#980)

proverbially speaking

Aren't those cool, neat facts from FL's own resource? WOW... "proverbial" has really swayed my thinking now.

ROTFL

They're not facts. It's an analogy.

"Like hitting the side of a barn."

Which it was.

Fuck you're stupid.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-22   21:01:44 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#982. To: All (#941)

Me: I don't have time right now to locate my post on the ZioNIST report that clearly shows on its own pages (173-174, I think it is) how demolitions could easily have been planted at intervals and in several different ways during what might have appeared to be only routine building inspections. That's in addition to the Powerdown period and in addition to the many months of such access with Maintenance passes that the WTC Art Students-in-Residence had available to them to stage-prop and plant explosives in the buildings, so the arguments that it couldn't have been done covertly are baseless nonsense. Will try to find it and link it here as a reference as soon as I can get around to it.

There are two and here they are @:

Everyone who believes that those who trust the government and believe it's wacky conspiracy theories are the biggest KOOKS of all, here's your thread
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=120440&Disp=0#C0

Post #49
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=120440&Disp=49#C49

Post #50
http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=120440&Disp=50#C50

So don't try to make that baseless nonsense claim again, Non-Truthers, or be exposed and PWND as Willful Liars.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-22   21:02:30 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#983. To: buckeroo (#977)

Where are the credentials of the folks that made that YouTube uplink?

Watch the videos and find out...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:03:04 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#984. To: wudidiz (#981)

They're not facts. It's an analogy.

Oh this is RICH! .. no facts just silly BS. Thanks for making my point, pal.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-22   21:03:06 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#985. To: FormerLurker (#973)

E pur si muove! (& the truth will out.)

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-22   21:03:53 ET  (1 image) [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#986. To: AGAviator (#969) (Edited)

Retard, everyone that sees WTC come down knows it was a controlled demolition if they have even a average IQ. You obviously don't, but it is nice that they let you play at the computer at your retard institution.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-22   21:06:27 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#987. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#979)

but rather some covert remote operator utilizing computer assisted

So why didn't your ***covert remote operator*** use the same tactic of hitting the "least damageable location" of NYC buildings, whackjob?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-22   21:06:43 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#988. To: buckeroo (#974)

BFD... your article uses a few footnotes/references that are factual but don't lead to conclusions supporting the thesis.

Oh sure, ALL the witnesses and people involved don't know as much as you bucko.

The air traffic controllers at Dulles International Airport are no match for your expertise, and the various airline pilots stating the pilot who flew the plane into the Pentagon had to have been highly skilled are no match for your vast experience flying airliners, and the flight instructors who actually delt with him and who judged him to be totally incompentent just didn't know what they were talking about I guess.

In fact, even the 9/11 Commissioners who determined his English skills to be inadequate were just being racists and picking on the poor guy, since his English skills MUST have been pretty good for him to get that license, right bucko?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:09:57 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  


#989. To: AGAviator (#987)

So why didn't your ***covert remote operator*** use the same tactic of hitting the "least damageable location" of NYC buildings, whackjob?

It wasn't the Pentagon, Rumsfeld wasn't there, and they WANTED to bring those towers down.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-22   21:10:42 ET  [Locked]   Trace   Private Reply  



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