See other 9/11 Articles
Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source:
Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 20405
Comments: 989
They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government. The Washington Post NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours. He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen. It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered. "To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives." Such as? "There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives." If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 36 percent suspicious A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act." Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities. Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down." But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers. Motley crew The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher. Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ... Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda. "Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model." The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois. Professor suspended The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite. Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday. The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out." Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be. Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss. "Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts. They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd. "Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him." Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting. Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded: "It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed." The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute. No patience Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials. But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists. "They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard. "I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again." In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery. "It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams." The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... " Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.
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#265. To: abraxas (#203)
And the answer is: NO, NOBODY WILL CARE, NOBODY WILL RESEARCH THE POSTS.......only you buck--you are the wind beneath AG's wings. LOL!
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Ah, very good. Buck is taking stock and admitting his shortcomings. That's the first step, or so they say. He forgot Sterno and Kook Aid guzzler but maybe he can add that on.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. James... Experience is the best teacher and a hard taskmaster. As I stated last night, I have been down this road before. Starting way back with the people that made FR a "success". Without going into detail, there were people that know where the bodies are buried. With that in mind, the last forum and chat room that I helped to found and maintain became a total failure because the owner refused to maintain control of the forum. Christine as an example, believes in freedom of speech without limit. While that is a laudable trait, it DOES NOT WORK. There are two negatives to that belief. One. Nowhere in organized society is ANYONE allowed to express themselves with vulgar and obscene language. Expressing a view in acceptable language IS FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Expressing ones view in gutter language is acceptable NOWHERE. That is not my opinion, it is a fact that may be discerned by trying it in Church, in your restaurant even at Wal Mart, and you will be hustled out into the street. It is NO different here. Two. From my experience in a forum failure, endless, mind numbing posting hour after hour destroys the intent of any forum. No one is doing 4um and Christine a "favor" by posting vulgar tirades all day and all nite. That is NOT what the forum was created for. These threads have accomplished one thing, I and others have stopped posting. The argument for bozoing is a childish cop out that does not work, it only helps those that destroy. Been there, done that, civil management has to be maintained or Christine will be left holding a forum with half a dozen posters before the collapse. The concept that somehow these threads are helping the forum is totally wrong, good, intelligent people need to rethink something, the 4um is Christines, no one has a right to dominate and destroy. When I first came here, Christine asked me to refrain from posting on certain threads, I have respected her wishes and we get along fine. That was forum management, her forum, her job and I complied. Cyni...
So let's research just what exactly "vulgar," "obscene," and "gutter language" consist of. In your paradigm is saying "Go sleep with your boyfriend" acceptable, and a reply "Go fuck yourself, little faggot wannabe" ***vulgar?***
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- the liar movement is once again relying on smoke and mirrors.
Careful there - you might throw your elbow out patting yourself on the back. Once again you demonstrate your willingness to twist and distort the data to suit your distorted misrepresentations. A Commercial Pilot's Certificate DOES NOT convey at certification the ability or right to Pilot a multi-pilot Airliner. While it does convey the right to be a co-pilot on most major airlines an Airline Transport Pilot License is the norm AND IS REQUIRED to sit as Pilot and Captain. It is a considerably higher rating and requires a minimum of 1,500 hours of flight time logged on flights of greater than 50 NM and has a night flying and instrument requirement as well. A Commercial Pilots Certificate, while conveying the ability to fly for pay on a LIMITED level, DOES NOT CONVEY A LICENSCE TO FLY AN AIRLINER and as such is A LEARNER'S PERMIT to learn to fly one and to accumulate the hours necessary to qualify for an Airline Transport Pilot License which is what is required to set in the Pilot Seat of a multi-pilot Airliner. Your attempt to misrepresent Hanjour's qualifications to inflate them beyond their level is simply an attempt to confuse and to obscure the fact that by all accounts Hanjour was an INCOMPETENT. From your own link: Hanjour met none of the requirements for an Airline Transport Pilot's License and given his poor command of English it is doubtful that he truly met the requirements for the Commercial Pilot's Certificate. Further we know from every reliable witness testimony from his schools and instructors, including his attempt to rent a single engine Cessna for which he was turned down THREE TIMES, that Hanjour WAS INCOMPETENT as a pilot. We also know that he HAD NEVER sat behind the stick on a Jet Aircraft OF ANY KIND. The largest aircraft he is ever known to have flown is a Piper Apache Twin Engine Propeller Driven 4 seater. Your attempts to misrepresent Hanjour's Licensing and Qualifications amount to nothing more than an attempt to inflate and overstate his abilities and qualifications as a pilot. The bottom line is that Hanjour had never under any circumstances flown a jet aircraft whether single or multi-engine, was not qualified or licensed to fly a Jetliner, and by all evidences from witness testimony of his instructors likely should never have been given a Commercial rating in the first place as he was incompetent as a pilot and his command of English was insufficient to meet the criteria stipulated for the rating.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
this is why they are the liar movement, they are complete factaphobics. with the one exception referenced in my tag line.
You have nothing to say against the fact that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition. Not one bit of evidence from you, yet you still cling to your fantasies that is just fell down due to minor damage and a few small fires. No wonder you have to try to divert this thread to language usage, because you surely can't defend your belief the government told the truth about WTC 7.
God is always good!
Ah, behind my back, you have to start lying about what I've said in order to feel you've "won" the debate, eh? Your dishonesty here is epic. The fabled conspiracies keep rattling around without facts or witnesses... I think it is all BS. FormerLurker created a thread about FLT77 BRIEF WHILE BACK about the cabin door proving that Hanjour couldn't have done his dirty deeds. FL was BUSTED. WRONG. I posted an article which reported the findings of independent reseachers that Flight 77's FDR data provided by the NTSB through a FOIA request indicated that the cabin door had not been opened during the entire flight. You brought up the possibility that the FDR was not wired to collect the FLT DECK DOOR parameter, but you never provided any proof that was true. It IS listed as a valid parameter in the aircraft's maintenance manual, but it isn't clear if that manual covers all variants of the 757, so it is STILL uncertain if that data was actually collected, but it is NOT proven one way or the other if it was in fact collected, it is still UNKNOWN. FL also claimed that Hanjour did not have pilot credentials based on the FAA structure and requirements. FL was busted. Wrong. I questioned the validity of any such credential, since Hanjour did NOT have the qualifications to legitimately have one. I simply asked you to provide a copy of said credentials, since I didn't believe he would actually have a valid FAA certificate, but ok, you found a copy of it and posted it. THEN, by looking up the name he used on those credentials, where he used the last name HANJOOR rather than HANJOUR, I discovered a mother-lode of well researched facts and testimony concerning his qualifications, or lack of them. I posted that information to you, and invited you to discuss that evidence, instead, you posted pages and pages of vulgarities, and simply ignored every documented fact I posted. FL has claimed that everyone under the Sun but any terrorists created demolitions of the WTC ... to include all government officials that day. FL has no proof. You are a liar. I've never said "everyone under the sun" "created" demolitions of the WTC, in fact, I provided evidence that the elevators were serviced weeks prior to 9/11, and THAT would have been a perfect opportunity to plant explosives within the cores of the towers. As far as who was responsible for that and who planned the operation, I've never said "all governement officials", I've said it was more than likely an international consortium who was behind it, which included high level officials within our own government. It's obvious that this government is NOT trying to find out what happened, and IS actively issuing disinformation in regards to the events which unfolded that day. It's not those 19 angry arabs who "hated us for our freedoms" that would have the power to do that, nor did they have the ability to order several war games that very morning which simulated hijacked aircraft on FAA and NORAD screens, confusing the actual hijackings with simulated blips. This continuing speculation and silly behaviour has gone on too long. It is time to slap the speculators into reasonable sanity with FACTS You didn't even understand the basics of how buildings fall in terms of how an object drops through thin air, yet I provided you the basic fundamentals of such, only to see you continuously demand physics and math, which you obviously can't understand and claim is BS, although any reasonably intelligent high school student would understand it and know it to be true. Yes, you are truly a piece of work there bucko, keep up the shilling, I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
Likes like AG is DETERMINED to pull this thread down into the gutter, no matter WHAT. Hey buck, blame your pal if this thread get's locked, not your victims.
going back for sixty plus years any way. they all bank on the thirds theorem in that a third will believe any thing they tell them and another third won't care one way or another and then they try to play off the other third (who know the government and its shills are lying thieves) as a minority unworthy of mention.
You remind me of a witticism I saw, might have Ambrose Bierce, defining a pensioner as a "Kept Patriot". However, their persistence in accepting and furthering lies and disinformation goes above and beyond the call of silence on government crimes. They have traveled over into the dark side of actual disloyalty, even treason, in defending the crimes of criminals in government positions. These types always seem to forget that key phrase in the oath we all swore who served - "all enemies foreign and domestic". Of course they are probably as clueless about the definition of domestic as they are on many other topics.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Why are you speaking to Cyni like that? He has never been vulgar in any way to you. Not once. What will your feeble excuse be this time since "he did it first" won't work? In your paradigm, you lash out at anybody with no regard because you perceive your fragile little ego has been bruised and everytime you claim you are justified. The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
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The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
AG's and buck's strategy is to hurl rocks and bricks at their victims, then when their victim punches each one of the them in the face, they cry foul and say "see", he started it.
it is as if their handlers have realized the people aren't falling for their past string of tales and have advised their shills to kill the discussion in any manner needed to keep the official fairy tale from being completely eroded. they fear the third who currently do not care may just start caring which would without fail lead to the ousting of the oligarchy they have spent the past six plus decades to install.
maybe.
Thing is, it becomes clear that IS what they are trying to do, and people begin to wonder WHY would people go to that degree of effort if there WERE nothing to it...
(b) Limitations. A commercial pilot's license is not a learner's permit. A commercial pilot license does authorize a pilot to be a pilot in command for a sinble aircraft engine - remember saying he couldn't even fly a single engine airplnane, huh? - and a co pilot on a multi pilot aircraft. Once again, contrary to your claims, you are WRONG, and once again you try to move the goalposts after your statement is debunked. Additional type certifications can and are completed on ground school, simulators and other methods than getting direct instruction from a right seater. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have to say anything. I post links that blow your theories to hell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since I have been posting here I can't recall even one time when Cynicom was ever vulgar to anyone. Not saying he hasn't been but that I haven't seen it (and I doubt he has been).
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. AG's and buck's strategy is to hurl rocks and bricks at their victims, then when their victim punches each one of the them in the face, they cry foul and say "see", he started it. Like much of what they do it is the classic signature of a Disinformation Operative - whether they work for the government, a PR firm, or are simply weak minded enough to believe uncategorically every utterance of a government PR Flack or talking head in the controlled media, or "The Less Than Amazing Randi" (who likely is part of CIA's Operation Mockingbird). Here are a few of their favorite things: Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation The point FL was making i.e., the constant whining about name calling etc., the very tactic they constantly use in attempting to degrade and upset anyone not supporting the "Official Conspiracy Theory™". Another constant ploy - regardless of the firmness and references supporting a datum they will deny it extists etc., .... Done all the time by the Liar's Movement as they are constantly seeking to create confusion with superficially logical sounding objections - which upon closer examination fall apart. Routine for them. Taking one fact, again the Commercial Pilot's License serves as an example. Taking the fact that Hanjour/Hanjoor had somehow managed to get a Commercial license reasoning backwards he becomes an honorary member of Baron Von Richtoften's Flying Circurs and a wizard behind controls of a size and type of plane which he had never flown. They do this all the time by using their pre-written cut and paste counter arguments either from "debunker" web sites or from, I presume, a cut and paste file of counters that have been developed over time to attack points of the arguments favoring complicity at the highest levels. While they do not do this directly or personally they do rely upon it as the pool of key witnesses who have testified to evidence directly contradictory to the "Official Fairy Tale™" start dying e.g., Barry Jennings. This one is thrown out under cover on a frequent basis - such as attempting to divert from the evidence that Hanjour was an incompetent pilot by shouting that he had a Commercial Pilot Certificate and then acting as if somehow that conveyed the ability to do aerobatics in a Jumbo Jet.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Hey buck, blame your pal if this thread get's locked, not your victims. I am posing a very basic question of whether obscene commentary is considered as vulgar as saying "fuck" especially when saying "fuck" is a direct response to said obscene commentary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't recall Cynicom ever being vulgar either. I do recall Cynicom being offended by my language on posts and, of course, I apologized. Out of respect, I toned down on any language Cyni wouldn't approve of within our exchanges. What Cyni wants........Cyni gets. We didn't have any failure to communicate. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Out of all those they do #9 best. Lots of practice I reckon.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. What Cyni wants........Cyni gets. We didn't have any failure to communicate. : ) I try to post in such a manner that I would not be ashamed for my mother or sister to read the things I post.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I am asking him a question that includes the f-word. I am not calling him anything. You are making a pathetic excuse trying to claim victim status for past exchanges you have started and which I formerly chose to respond my way, not yours. You are off topic and lose.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
THAT'S NOT THE POINT. Cyni finds foul language offensive. Do you think you can grasp that simple concept and show some respect for other posters on this forum? Nobody is playing victim save yourself. Show some respect for posters who do not engage in foul language. If you had a shred of decency you would step up and apologize to Cyni.....but we both know you don't. You never fail to demonstrate how disgusting self centered and ego centric can be.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
(b) Limitations. A commercial pilot's license is not a learner's permit. A commercial pilot license does authorize a pilot to be a pilot in command for a sinble aircraft engine - remember saying he couldn't even fly a single engine airplnane, huh? - and a co pilot on a multi pilot aircraft. Once again, contrary to your claims, you are WRONG, and once again you try to move the goalposts after your statement is debunked. Additional type certifications can and are completed on ground school, simulators and other methods than getting direct instruction from a right seater. How charming. Caught in your disinformational inflation of Hanjour's/Hanjoor's abilities and qualifications as a pilot you are now trying to wiggle out of the trap of your own devising. As far as flying a Jet Airliner a Commercial Pilot's Certificate IS a Learner's Permit. It does not convey a license to fly a multi-engine Jumbo Jet using a Pilot and Co-Pilot. The most it conveys, and only if someone is willing to hire him for it (HA!) is to sit in the Co-Pilot's seat. And the evidence and record of testimony is quite clear - HE WAS TURNED DOWN THREE TIMES on the rental of a single engine Cessna 172 because in the opinion of the instructor checking him out he was not capable enough to fly it alone. Twist and turn as you might that is documented in testimony. As for any other certifications there is nothing in evidence showing that he had any. I presume you have something which documents any other certifications (saving a single engine VFR license which he had to have prior to the botched Commercial Certification)? I didn't think so. We have been over and over and over this territory. Hanjoor/Hanjour has been repeatedly characterized in testimony, and in interviews, as INCOMPETENT as a pilot, your cavils and quibbles and diversions do not change that FACT. "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Evidently you've never heard my mother or sister when they're really pissed off. :-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
No, I haven't.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Wow, did everybody see that fire in that window? I know it was hard to see, and many times you couldn't see it at all, but if the camera was moved just right you could see a fire in one of the windows! Golly gee, I guess that caused a 47 story building to come straight down. Maybe they should have made the building better and able to withstand hurricane force winds. Oh, but they did build it to withstand hurricane force winds. LOL! Again you have nothing but a puff of smoke and a trash can fire. That is not evidence supporting the collapse of a 47 story steel framed building.
God is always good!
Wrong as usual. A "Learners Permit" is an off-the-wall goofball term you have just invented to try to avoid being wrong on claiming that Hanjour was not a pilot. There is no such term in aviation as a "Learners Permit." The correct license for a "Learner's Permit" is called a "Student Pilot" which Hanjour was clearly not at the time. He was authorized as a pilot in command in a Single Engine Aircraft, and a Co- Pilot in Multi Engine Aircraft. The fact that he may have been required to take additional type class training, such as operating landing gear or operating a seaplane for Single Engine, or being type certified for Multi Engine, does not take away from his pilot status. You are debunked and pwned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you want to see more fires? Keep jumping around from wanting to see structural to wanting to see fires - whatever is not shown that's where you want to shift the discussion to?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Still engaging in evading the point I see. I am not going to mince details and join you in hair-splitting. Hanjour/Hanjoor was by all credible evidence INCOMPETENT as a pilot, who spoke broken English (thus making his Commercial Certificate, to say the least, questionable). Why don't you argue the point with the author of this article: Al-Qaeda's Top Gun ... - after all he only included fifty-some odd foot notes. I am sure you can find a few microscopic points to distort and quibble over.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
This seems to be such an inconvenient question that ultimately buckles and AGitprop supposedly put me on their filter. LOL !
No, that was the One Meridien Plaza Fire, burned for not 18 minutes or even 80 minutes but EIGHTEEN HOURS. And it didn't fall. hmmm. Maybe it was this one? No, not that one either. That was The First Interstate Bank Fire (Los Angeles). Burned for 3 and 1/2 hours. Didn't fall down. (In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans.) Maybe this is the one. No, foiled again. Despite being a much longer lasting fire and obviously far more extensive The Beijing Mandarin Oriental Hotel didn't get tired and fall down.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I have never said Hanjour was a good pilot. It is your need to call Hanjour an alleged good pilot, so you can then claim that showing he was not a good pilot, disproves he was a hijacker. I have repeatedly and consistently said Hanjour was a marginal pilot who let his airplane get away from him and ended up hitting a reinforced, mostly empty, part of the Pentagon that did little or no damage to US interests, at an oblique angle which did not even maximize the possible damage from the impact. As the flight school instructors state explicitly, Hanjour had trouble on takeoffs and landings and English, none of which he needed to do, but nevertheless they had no doubt that he did know enough to take over an airplane mid flight and crash it. Consistent with the Half Truther MO, you ignore that section of the flight school interview. At the time of impact Hanjour's aircraft was banking with the starboard engine hitting the 2nd story and the port engine hitting barely above the ground. This was not a "precision pilot maneuver." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oakland Bridge Steel Melts from Gasoline Tanker Fire ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#266. To: wudidiz (#217)
"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#267. To: James Deffenbach, Christine (#264)
Locking the threads so that they go down the memory hole plays into their hands in my opinion.
#268. To: Cynicom, buckeroo, turtle (#267)
(Edited)
One. Nowhere in organized society is ANYONE allowed to express themselves with vulgar and obscene language. Expressing a view in acceptable language IS FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Expressing ones view in gutter language is acceptable NOWHERE
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#269. To: Eric Stratton, buckeroo (#212)
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#270. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#245)
(b) Limitations. (1) A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category or powered-lift category rating and does not hold an instrument rating in the same category and class will be issued a commercial pilot certificate that contains the limitation, The carriage of passengers for hire in (airplanes) (powered-lifts) on cross-country flights in excess of 50 nautical miles or at night is prohibited. The limitation may be removed when the person satisfactorily accomplishes the requirements listed in 61.65 of this part for an instrument rating in the same category and class of aircraft listed on the person's commercial pilot certificate.
#271. To: Original_Intent, abraxas (#238)
Lying seems to be part of the "debunker" mentality. Their patron un-saint "The Less Than Amazing Randi" and the Septical Inquirer crowd have been caught more than once. Their mindset also seems to be "The Champions of Official Orthodoxy" whatever the current official orthodoxy is. The debunkers have made more twists and turns than a corkscrew. Every time the "received" wisdom from the Holy Establishment changes their opinion immediately changes with it - "and that's the way it's been forever".I have little patience for them because "the lights are on but there is nobody home". They do not think they regurgitate. And because it is either a fixation or something that they are, in some cases, paid to believe the likelihood of their ever waking up is vanishingly small. Still they are useful for one thing and that is making us think and to refine our understanding of the facts. We do have a couple of advantages over them though. The truth is the basic fundamental isness and is the reality and because of that their lies have to constantly be repeated over and over and over to keep them in place whereas the truth just is. The other advantage we have is that we can be wrong a thousand times and still be right as it only takes "1" incontrovertable fact to show that what they are pushing is a lie whereas they cannot admit error even once or else their entire edifice of lies crumbles.
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#272. To: AGAviator (#268)
#273. To: buckeroo, Samuel Gray, Original_Intent, IRTorqued, wudidiz, abraxas, James Deffenbach, Rotara, christine, ALL (#93)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#274. To: IRTorqued (#269)
#275. To: Cynicom, AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, ALL (#268)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#276. To: Eric Stratton (#274)
Funny, kinda like the last bunch of Administrations.
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#277. To: HOUNDDAWG (#259)
The simple fact is govt loyalists are of such low moral character that they shouldn't even be permitted to vote. They are with few exceptions criminally stupid or dishonest, and either way they predictably side with the tyrants who are dismantling America. (just look at dogmatic social security recipients, i.e. THE AARP agenda. What more proof of blind stupidity do you need?) If SS recipients are "Good Catholics" then military pensioners are "bishops and priests". Both groups can't wait to show the "Vatican" the absurd lengths they'll go to swallow anything they're fed if it means their checks keep coming, even to the point of unhinging their jaws like snakes to accommodate large portions of govt horse shit.
#278. To: AGAviator, Cynicom, buckaroo, turtle (#268)
#279. To: IRTorqued (#276)
#280. To: abraxas (#278)
The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#281. To: FormerLurker (#275)
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#282. To: Eric Stratton (#279)
the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET
#283. To: IRTorqued (#281)
it is as if their handlers have realized the people aren't falling for their past string of tales and have advised their shills to kill the discussion in any manner needed to keep the official fairy tale from being completely eroded. they fear the third who currently do not care may just start caring which would without fail lead to the ousting of the oligarchy they have spent the past six plus decades to install.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#284. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#270)
From your own link:
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#285. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#272)
You have nothing to say against the fact that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#286. To: abraxas, Cynicom (#278)
The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#287. To: FormerLurker, abraxas, christine, IRTorqued, wudidiz, Cadet D, Eric Stratton, RickyJ, Kamala, AllTheKingsHorses, farmfriend, Critter, HOUNDDAWG, Anyone Who Cares About the Truth, all (#280)
The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual material fact.
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.
17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
#288. To: FormerLurker, blockquote (#275)
Likes like AG is DETERMINED to pull this thread down into the gutter, no matter WHAT.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#289. To: James Deffenbach, cynicom (#286)
Since I have been posting here I can't recall even one time when Cynicom was ever vulgar to anyone. Not saying he hasn't been but that I haven't seen it (and I doubt he has been).
#290. To: Original_Intent (#287)
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#291. To: abraxas (#289)
I don't recall Cynicom ever being vulgar either. I do recall Cynicom being offended by my language on posts and, of course, I apologized. Out of respect, I toned down on any language Cyni wouldn't approve of within our exchanges.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#292. To: abraxas, cynicom, buckeroo (#278)
Why are you speaking to Cyni like that? He has never been vulgar in any way to you. Not once. What will your feeble excuse be this time since "he did it first" won't work?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#293. To: AGAviator (#288)
#294. To: AGAviator, Cynicom (#292)
I am not calling him anything.
#295. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, christine, wudidiz, abraxas, Critter, IRTorqued, all (#284)
From your own link:
#296. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas (#291)
(Edited)
I try to post in such a manner that I would not be ashamed for my mother or sister to read the things I post.
#297. To: Original_Intent (#296)
Evidently you've never hear my mother or sister when they're really pissed off. :-)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#298. To: AGAviator (#285)
(Edited)
#299. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#295)
(Edited)
As far as flying a Jet Airliner a Commercial Pilot's Certificate IS a Learner's Permit. It does not convey a license to fly a multi-engine Jumbo Jet using a Pilot and Co-Pilot.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#300. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#298)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#301. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#299)
#302. To: FormerLurker (#273)
Who is Barry Jennings ?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#303. To: RickyJ (#298)
Wow, did everybody see that fire in that window?
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#304. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#295)
(Edited)
Hanjoor/Hanjour has been repeatedly characterized in testimony, and in interviews, as INCOMPETENT as a pilot
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#305. To: James Deffenbach (#303)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
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