See other 9/11 Articles
Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source:
Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 16884
Comments: 989
They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government. The Washington Post NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours. He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen. It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered. "To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives." Such as? "There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives." If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 36 percent suspicious A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act." Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities. Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down." But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers. Motley crew The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher. Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ... Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda. "Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model." The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois. Professor suspended The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite. Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday. The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out." Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be. Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss. "Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts. They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd. "Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him." Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting. Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded: "It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed." The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute. No patience Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials. But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists. "They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard. "I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again." In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery. "It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams." The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... " Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.
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#435. To: FormerLurker (#434)
"Once again you make assertions with no proof or rebuttals of your own. Denying existing facts is not sufficient for evidential conclusions. You must supply your own independent verifiable facts to withstand equal or greater scrutiny." "AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 10:43:10 ET"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Once again you make assertions with no proof or rebuttals of your own. Hanjour's instructors have stated that he was an extremely poor pilot, that he lacked the basic skills required to pilot an aircraft, in fact, one said "he could not fly at all". I'll take their observations over your unfounded allegations any day of the week. Denying existing facts is not sufficient for evidential conclusions. Yet that is the crux of your argument. You deny existing facts, ignore highly credible eyewitness testimony, and then insist that proves you're right. You must supply your own independent verifiable facts to withstand equal or greater scrutiny. Besides your unfounded asssertions, what sort of "verifiable facts" have YOU presented? All evidence related to Hanjour's abilites indicates he could NOT have piloted a 757 at all, never mind manuevering it as the alleged Flight 77 was observed to have manuevered the morning of 9/11. Hell, you won't even acknowledge the OFFICIAL account of how that jet was flown, since it shoots your "he was a bad pilot yet managed to pull it off" story right out of the water. The lack of jet fuel in the vicinty where the left wing should have struck the Pentagon wall indicates it was NOT a 757 that hit the building. Yet you INSIST it was, because you say so. Sorry, but I never did believe in faerie tales, not even when I was a kid.
Oh, and as far as "tying to insult you in a PM", you had already tried to publicly insult me here on this forum. I was rather polite to you, all things considered.
This is what that would look like: [Not really] New Re-released Pentagon Video : [but] watch it all [anyway]
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
Forensic evidence, and the testimony of 100 impartial eyewitnesses, trumps testimony of 2 witnesses even if they happen to be police officers. Actually no it doesn't. It means that it is an anomalous unconfirmed datum which should be explored, evaluated, and understood in its context compared against the other data. I do not pretend to know the ultimate answer. However, one thing I do know is that there are enough contrary datums to make the "Official Cover Legend™" seem untenable. So, sound reasoning simply requires that we look at the data in its totality without assuming we know the final answer before we look
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
lol....oh, but now James, he doesn't believe in all that his great debunking source has to say or even the site, just one cherry picked little piece of data. I find it hysterically funny. He has no problems with using TRUTHER sites to support some little aspect of the government fairy tale while ignoring the mountain of information presented to call BS on the bulk of the government theory. Oh, but he doesn't want to read any of that information, written by scientists, architects and engineers.......hey, it's okay to cherry pick around and within while believing that the lot of us bother to put even an iota of credibility to his posts. Wouldn't want any FACTS to disrupt the fairy tale.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
I think that is a nice summation of the credibility of the "Official Cover Legend™" In looking at the entire problem globally the first thing that comes to mind is the old axiom of logic: There are simply too many apparently contradictory datums for the "Official Cover Legend™" to be true. Therefore we are left trying to reconstruct, from an artificially (by suppression of information) limited data set. (As well we cannot rule out the possibility that false data was planted to mislead.) Just given the FBI confiscation of all the videos from surrounding cameras we can infer that they contained, or were likely to contain, images which would have been directly contradictory to the "Official Cover Legend™". We know from his training record and the testimony of his instructors etc., that Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor had never evidenced the level of piloting skill or knowledge to have taken flight 77 through its apparent flight path and into the Pentagon wall. This particularly applies to the ability to navigate the aircraft from Ohio to the Pentagon, several States away, locate and close on a target, the Pentagon, put a Jumbo Jet through maneuvers that would tax the skills of a Master Pilot, and then make a theoretically impossible final approach at 460 Knots (530 M.P.H.) 20 fee above the ground (leaving about a 2.5 foot clearance above ground for the engine cowlings) for a mile, to precisely impact the Pentagon on the first floor of a 71 foot high wall. We also know from the accounts that apparently Flt. 77 disappears from Radar somewhere over Ohio only to miraculously reappear on its final approach to the Pentagon. I am not sure what to make of that datum. I could speculate, but it would be speculation based on incomplete data. We know that the impact occurred on the side of the Pentagon directly on the opposite side, as far as it could be, from the offices housing all of the Brass despite the fact that the initial approach would have made that the easiest target, afforded the largest target, based on the angle of approach, and the one most likely taken by a suicide pilot of very limited skill who was just trying to hit the building anywhere. Also "coincidentall" the one spot chosen is the one most convenient to any cover up of the missing 2.3 TRILLION dollars that had been reported unaccounted for just the day before. Then we have the data of conflicting reports on the final approach path of the aircraft to its impact point. There is the testimony of the two officers as well as witnesses claiming to see a plane continuing low over the other side after the supposed impact of flight 77. The C-130 does not credibly account for this as it its closest approach was a couple of miles and too high. So as we see we have a data set with conflicting and apparently mutually contradictory datums. So, the first thing we can reasonably conclude is that the official story is false or incomplete, and that the data necessary to resolve the conflict, the 32 videos confiscated and hidden by the FBI the afternoon of 911 (How did they know where ALL the videos were just hours after the event?) is being held under lock and key 9 years after the event.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
One of the stray thoughts that occurs to me is that this video release, a very short clip, is just the kind of thing that could be created in a super computer by "Industrial Light and Magic" or their government equivalent. I'm not saying it was mind you - just a stray speculation.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Actually it allegedly flew at tree top level (50-60 feet) for a mile before descending to 20 feet off the ground for the last tenth of a mile or so.
deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.
Yes, that would be harble and tarble to let facts get in the way of a moronic tale like the Official Conspiracy Theory™.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. There would be no better commercial to market the war on terror than those tapes, if infact, they actually confirmed the governement theory.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Actually it allegedly flew at tree top level (50-60 feet) for a mile before descending to 20 feet off the ground for the last tenth of a mile or so. Thanks for the correction. Don't want to give the shills any quibble room.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001. Exactly. Just as the planes hitting the towers was replayed on some channel every 20 minutes 24/7 (to maximize the PysOp/Psychological impact) for a couple of weeks. The PTB well know the impact such an event, and its continuous repetition, has on the naive public who took the "Official Fairy Tale™" at face value. It makes them numb and malleable from the horror. That is how they were able to roll out the ten thousand page Un-Patriot act the next week and ram it through Congress without a single Congresscritter either getting a copy or reading the bill. It is also how their wars, which they had been shopping to India as early as June of 2001, were "Marketed" to the American Sheeple.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
There would be no better commercial to market the war on terror than those tapes, if infact, they actually confirmed the governement theory. Which is why it is reasonable and rational to infer that they DO NOT. In fact we can further infer that the contradiction on at least one, or more, of the videotapes is so strong and obvious that they dare not release it or the entire "Official Cover Story™" would immediately collapse.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
In fact we can further infer that the contradiction on at least one, or more, of the videotapes is so strong and obvious that they dare not release it or the entire "Official Cover Story™" would immediately collapse. Yep, it'd be sort of hard to explain why there are two aircraft approaching the Pentagon, where one is the 757 and the other is a drone of some type.
The principal person who refused to rent to Hanjour said although he was a crummy pilot as far as takeoffs, landings, and English was concerned, there was no question Hanjour could have piloted a hijacked plane, and crashed it into the target. As I repeatedly note, he didn't even do that too well, but he did manage to salvage something out of a botched attempt to hit the north facing offices. 103 eyewitnesses are not unfounded allegations. 103 eyewitnesses are credible eyewitness testimony. So are 2 police officers. It is not uncommon to have variations in eyewitness accounts. That is where forensic analysis and careful reconstruction of statements comes in. The supposed "fighter pilot turn" of the 757 did not even generate 1 G of extra gravitational pull on the cockpit. Boeing aircraft have been observed to have withstood 3.9 G's in turbulence with zero structural damage. To pass a private pilot test a student pilot must do a banked 60 degree turn rolling out within + or - 200 feet of altitude the turn started. A 60 degree banked turn generates total 2 G's of force right there. So everybody who has any kind of license has demonstrated on a check ride he or she can control an aircraft generating 2 G of force, and the 757 descending turn did not even generate that much force. The claims of "fighter pilot maneuvers" are from people who are not thinking critically. As one of my ground school instructors said, even though airline pilots are expected to fly their aircraft so they don't spill passenger drinks, the aircraft themselves are engineered to withstand far more abrupt maneuvers. As I have already said, in a 450 MPH crash of a 200,000 pound aircraft there are lots of unprecedented forces of momentum, kinetic energy, and fuel explosions at work, and to simply deny that something could have happened without knowledge and reconstruction of all factors at work is not appropriate methodology.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To pass a private pilot test a student pilot must do a banked 60 degree turn rolling out within + or - 200 feet of altitude the turn started. A 60 degree banked turn generates total 2 G's of force right there. So everybody who has any kind of license has demonstrated on a check ride he or she can control an aircraft generating 2 G of force, and the 757 descending turn did not even generate that much force. I can't resist. That is such a classic Strawman Argument combined with a Red Herring that it's like swinging on a hanging Curve Ball. The turn as a point of fact generated about .52 G's. That the Boeing 757 can has withstood up to 3.9 G's in an emergency maneuver is irrelevant and is a Red Herring which diverts from the point at play. The question is not whether the plane could withstand a 7,000 foot spiraling descent, in 2.5 minutes, it is that is a maneuver which is beyond, well beyond, the known competencies of that known incompetent pilot Hani Hanjour. What a pilot has to do to pass a test in a light propeller driven plane is irrelevant to what that same incompetent could do flying a Jumbo Jet, which he had never flown before and in fact said pilot, Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor, had NEVER flown ANY Jet Aircraft of ANY kind, at ANY time. Your argument is the classic Strawman Argument. Not bad. Two paragraphs, two fallacies. I didn't bother to analyze the rest of your "argument" as two fallacies, upon which the entire argument hangs, is enough to consign it most appropriately to the shitter, and then flushed with extreme prejudice.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
There would be no reason not to show it. They sure didn't mind showing the twin towers get hit, so there is no good reason to not show it if a plane struck the Pentagon. That's why I think no plane hit it. I don't think it was a missile either because of the neat, almost carved out holes in the Pentagon, especially the last hole. If it were a missile there would have been some evidence in the courtyard where it landed, it wouldn't have just vanished into thin air. And a plane doing those aviation tricks would be hard enough for a pro in the cockpit, never mind one on the ground trying to do the same thing remotely. There would be too much chance for error, and the planners of 9/11 weren't leaving anything to chance on their big day. If 9/11 didn't go as planned and they were exposed they would all be dead men. They had to do it right the first time. The bombs could have been planted in the Pentagon and they might have never intended on hitting it with a plane, only making it look as if a plane hit it. The other plane people saw could have been the air force jet arriving later, after the alleged terror attack on the Pentagon occurred.
God is always good!
While they were driving? Kind of hard to observe that while also driving 60+ MPH on a highway with traffic. They saw bits and pieces would probably be more accurate, the plane actually hitting the Pentagon I doubt they saw, cause no tapes have been released that show this. There is no reason to not release the tapes if a plane hit it, none whatsoever.
God is always good!
Basically anybody off the street, given the motivation and ability to enter the cockpit and overtake the flight crew, could grab the controls and crash a plane. Thing is, Hanjour didn't crash it, he FLEW IT from Ohio to Washington DC, descended into a precision turn, and flew it at an incredible speed of over 400 mph at treetop level, then descended down to 20 feet off the Pentagon lawn and flew it level into the Pentagon wall, which was only 71 feet high. Some of his instructors said he could fly a CESSNA single engine straight once in the air, other than that, he basically couldn't fly at all.
Nah, the C-130 showed up after the aircraft which witnesses saw had already hit the Pentagon. It had to have been some sort of drone, loaded with explosives perhaps, or maybe even armed with a missile which it could have fired immediately before impact. There would be too much chance for error, and the planners of 9/11 weren't leaving anything to chance on their big day. If 9/11 didn't go as planned and they were exposed they would all be dead men. They had to do it right the first time. There's a LOT that happened that day that if it didn't go off just right, would have made them all dead men. I do find it interesting that the Pentagon witnesses all report a time of 9:32 where the earliest the aircraft is said to have hit was 9:37. Something definitely doesn't add up, and there could well have been explosives involved to ensure the pesky accountants and their computers bit the dust, who knows...
There is no hole, and no jet fuel fire. The wings would have been ripped to shreds upon hitting a solid brick wall reinforced with steel and kevlar, and the fuel would have splattered all over the Pentagon wall. Yet that didn't happen. In fact, if you closely, the windows in the section of building where the wing is alleged to have impacted aren't even broken. Man, this claim goes back to "Hanjour couldn't have performed those antics because he wasn't a licensed pilot" ... and if it wasn't those exact words it was "prove his credentials" ... "strawman argument" ...and so forth. Yet, no one has said he was a good pilot.... some of these folks twist their own words as to make the opposing argument look like nothing compared to the off-the-walls, the lies and the innuendo. Man... how do you keep up with their continuous "fork tongues?"
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
That is such a ridiculous statement, only a REALLY ignorant person would state it, or a blatent liar. He was LINED UP to dive into the Pentagon where he was heading straight towards the high value section of the building, but TURNED the plane around while descending, and flew at treetop level for a mile in order to ultimately hit the least occupied section. If it were Hanjour flying the plane, he COULD have just crashed it like you claim he COULD have done, simply by decreasing speed and diving towards the Pentagon roof, which is about the area of 22 football fields, rather than performing a precision manuever to line up with a 71 foot tall target at 530 mph.
Be able to speak and understand English, which he could barely do. He did poorly in flight school because he couldn't understand the instructors, and was even offered to use a translator, even though that's against FAA rules. From the reports of most of his instructors, his flying was worse than his English, and he was basically totally incompetent behind the controls of a Cessna, never mind a jumbo jet. And as OI stated, he NEVER flew a jet before that day. What it comes down to is that it was obviously NOT Hanjour flying that plane.
So all of the senior air traffic controllers who were there at Dulles International Airport "weren't thinking critically", you are smarter and know more than them, even though they were there in the control tower, but you weren't.
It looks to me like the 2nd page of those documents you posted shows that the Commercial Certification/Rating (Piper aircraft used) expired on Leap Year day 2/29/00, a little over a year and a half before 9/11.
------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
LOL, you couldn't have shredded that ball of yarn quicker had you snuck in a box-cutter (or utility knife, as everyone I know called them prior to 911)
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
Nobody ever said that Hanjour didn't have or possess an active pilot's license. What seems amiss id that FormerLurker said Hanjour didn't possess one. Now, what this all means is FormerLurker doesn't know much about flight training and Hanjour OBVIOUSLY went through flight training to receive certification EVEN IF IT WAS INSTRUMENTATION. SO, I don't understand why you are posting all kinds of links and threads towards his certification when ONLY FL and his pal, O_I said he wasn't qualified to begin with. The point is moot. Hanjour went through flight training. FL and O_I both lied or are ignorant becasue of their conspiracy threads.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
And not everything did go right. William Rodriguez got out alive and was able to testify that bombs went off before the first plane impact. Barry Jennings got out alive and was able to testify to bombs going off long before WTC 7 collapsed. The top of the South Tower (which was hit after the North Tower) began to topple and so the South Tower had to be brought down prematurely, before the North Tower which took a more direct hit on the central core, at the 56 minute point. That is a glaring outpoint. The South Tower was hit second, took less damage, and yet collapsed first. The "Dancing Israelis" were arrested set up and filming an event "that nobody knew was coming". The warning to employees at Odigo two hours before the first plane hit. The dog that did not bark - none of the pilots on any of the 4 Jets gave a hijack alert - something which takes about 2 or 3 seconds and which they are drilled in. No pilot gave a voice warning that they were being hijacked. The impossible cell phone calls - which Ted Olson blew by contradicting himself. Considering the scale of the op there were few outright mistakes from the point of view of the planners and operators of the event, but no operation of this scale goes down without there being telltale signs and they are/were there. It is just that you have to dig for most of them.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
ps: I'm in no mood to go looking up specific posts, but there is NO WAY a 757's wings are just going to fold under like those of a cormorant hungry for herring. Thanks for pointing that out.
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
So who flew the plane? The TWOOFER_FAERIE™?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Buckie you are getting desperate. All of your little fantasies and talking points have been demolished and so now you have to lie by accusing others of lying since you have no data, no facts, no case, and nothing upon which to stand. At no time has either FL or myself said that Hanjour/Hanjoor had not had training. It is simply that he was a poor student, barely spoke English, and by the testimony of all of his instructors was anywhere from really crappy to outright incompetent as a pilot. And AT NO TIME prior to 911 had he EVER been in the cockpit of a Jet Aircraft, had never flown a Jet Aircraft, and in fact had never flown anything larger than a twin engine, 4 seat, propellor driven, Piper Apache. So, in your desperation to assert that this incompetent pilot could fly a Jumbo Jet the way The Red Baron flew his Fokker Tri-Plane you have to begin inventing things because you have NO CASE. Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor may have been many things but a competent pilot, of any size aircraft let alone a Jumbo Jet - something which he had never flown - even in simulation as he trained on a 737 simulator (a much smaller plane - not that he had ever actually flown ANY Jet, at ANY time) he was not. By the testimony both sworn and unsworn without exception EVERY one of his instructors characterized him as unsafe in any aircraft, at any time, or any place. CASE CLOSED. Now, if you were a man you would apologize for accusing people falsely of lying. However, I suspect little boy that you will not. Thus you will have branded yourself a liar, and a most reprehensible one at that.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Who said you or FL did, Mr, strawman? Both of you repeatedly said he had no certification. Either confess your spin or get stay on the roller-coaster. I am tired of YOUR nonsense.... ducking and lying about what you and FL said.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
I think at this point that would have to one of the most apparent datums to be inferred from the "discussion" on this thread. Now, we do not know who was behind the stick, or whether it was done by remote control, but I think the data more than supports that Hanjour/Hanjoor was nowhere near competent to perform the feats of aerobatics with a Jumbo Jet that Flight 77 went through. Of course the shills will still contest that because they cannot EVER admit that the "Official Fairy Tale™" is wrong in any respect or any detail no matter how small or large, and this is a large one.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Are you kidding, that's Cessna 101 - take an airliner out for a spin over Ohio and fly it straight back into Pentagon airspace by dead reckoning. Never mind that it sounds too far out for even a Hollywood hack to find believable, I think Buckeroo is ordering you to believe it.
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
I think we both contested the point, and also admitted that we were incorrect on that point. Hell, even one of his instructors contested that and called the FAA to check. Being wrong does not mean one is lying Bucktooth. It means that one was incorrect on one of the points. However, it still does not change the conclusion. Hanjour was not a competent pilot by testimony of every one of his instructors who have testified or spoken without exception. It does not change the FACT that this incompetent pilot had NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time flown ANY Jet Aircraft nor anything larger than a 4 seat, twin engine, propeller driven, Piper Apache.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Just call me "Doubting Thomas". LOL!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestJust because the evidence points to something other than what you're selling doesn't mean it can be easily dismissed, it means what you're selling isn't what really happened.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#436. To: AGAviator (#433)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#437. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#428)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#438. To: Eric Stratton (#260)
B, it was a Boeing 757 in the video
#439. To: GreyLmist (#438)
#440. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, Rotara, IRTorqued, abraxas, all (#431)
I've posted this video for you more than once, here it is again...
#441. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#427)
(Edited)
#442. To: Eric Stratton, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, wudidiz, abraxas, christine, all (#439)
The official theory is built for morons and sheep, plain and simple. Those are the people that believe it, morons and sheep.
"If two datums are mutually contradictory the first thing we many know with certainty is that one, or both, are false."
#443. To: GreyLmist (#438)
#444. To: Original_Intent (#442)
then make a theoretically impossible final approach at 460 Knots (530 M.P.H.) 20 fee above the ground (leaving about a 2.5 foot clearance above ground for the engine cowlings) for a mile, to precisely impact the Pentagon on the first floor of a 71 foot high wall.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#445. To: Original_Intent (#442)
#446. To: Original_Intent (#442)
(How did they know where ALL the videos were just hours after the event?)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#447. To: abraxas (#441)
Wouldn't want any FACTS to disrupt the fairy tale.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#448. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#446)
If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.
#449. To: FormerLurker (#444)
then make a theoretically impossible final approach at 460 Knots (530 M.P.H.) 20 fee above the ground (leaving about a 2.5 foot clearance above ground for the engine cowlings) for a mile, to precisely impact the Pentagon on the first floor of a 71 foot high wall.
#450. To: FormerLurker, abraxas, wudidiz, IRTorqued, Kamala, Eric Stratton, christine, AllTheKingsHorses, all (#446)
(How did they know where ALL the videos were just hours after the event?)
#451. To: abraxas, FormerLurker, wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, CadetD, all (#448)
If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.
#452. To: Original_Intent, abraxas, wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, CadetD, all (#451)
Which is why it is reasonable and rational to infer that they DO NOT.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#453. To: FormerLurker (#436)
(Edited)
Once again you make assertions with no proof or rebuttals of your own.
Hanjour's instructors have stated that he was an extremely poor pilot, that he lacked the basic skills required to pilot an aircraft, in fact, one said "he could not fly at all".
I'll take their observations over your unfounded allegations any day of the week.
Denying existing facts is not sufficient for evidential conclusions.
Yet that is the crux of your argument. You deny existing facts, ignore highly credible eyewitness testimony, and then insist that proves you're right.
Besides your unfounded asssertions, what sort of "verifiable facts" have YOU presented?
All evidence related to Hanjour's abilites indicates he could NOT have piloted a 757 at all, never mind manuevering it as the alleged Flight 77 was observed to have manuevered the morning of 9/11.
Hell, you won't even acknowledge the OFFICIAL account of how that jet was flown, since it shoots your "he was a bad pilot yet managed to pull it off" story right out of the water.
The lack of jet fuel in the vicinty where the left wing should have struck the Pentagon wall indicates it was NOT a 757 that hit the building. Yet you INSIST it was, because you say so.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#454. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, abraxas, wudidiz, christine, all (#453)
The supposed "fighter pilot turn" of the 757 did not even generate 1 G of extra gravitational pull on the cockpit. Boeing aircraft have been observed to have withstood 3.9 G's in turbulence with zero structural damage.
#455. To: FormerLurker (#446)
If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.
#456. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#428)
I worked with a person who was in Bethesda MD with her husband at the time for Oracle Training and who on their way to the Pentagon Mall observed the plane strike the Pentagon.
#457. To: AGAviator (#453)
The principal person who refused to rent to Hanjour said although he was a crummy pilot as far as takeoffs, landings, and English was concerned, there was no question Hanjour could have piloted a hijacked plane, and crashed it into the target.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#458. To: RickyJ (#455)
The other plane people saw could have been the air force jet arriving later, after the alleged terror attack on the Pentagon occurred.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#459. To: AGAviator (#453)
As I have already said, in a 450 MPH crash of a 200,000 pound aircraft there are lots of unprecedented forces of momentum, kinetic energy, and fuel explosions at work, and to simply deny that something could have happened without knowledge and reconstruction of all factors at work is not appropriate methodology.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#460. To: AGAviator (#453)
The claims of "fighter pilot maneuvers" are from people [some 4um posters] who are not thinking critically.
#461. To: AGAviator (#453)
As I repeatedly note, he didn't even do that too well, but he did manage to salvage something out of a botched attempt to hit the north facing offices.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#462. To: AGAviator (#453)
(Edited)
To pass a private pilot test a student pilot must
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#463. To: AGAviator (#453)
(Edited)
The claims of "fighter pilot maneuvers" are from people who are not thinking critically.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#464. To: AGAviator (#325)
#465. To: FormerLurker (#463)
So all of the senior air traffic controllers who were there at Dulles International Airport "weren't thinking critically", you are smarter and know more than them, even though they were there in the control tower, but you weren't.
#466. To: GreyLmist (#464)
It looks to me like the 2nd page of those documents you posted shows that the Commercial Certification/Rating (Piper aircraft used) expired on Leap Year day 2/29/00, a little over a year and a half before 9/11.
#467. To: FormerLurker, RickyJ (#458)
There's a LOT that happened that day that if it didn't go off just right, would have made them all dead men.
#468. To: FormerLurker (#463)
#469. To: FormerLurker (#462)
What it comes down to is that it was obviously NOT Hanjour flying that plane.
#470. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, christine, abraxas, all (#466)
(Edited)
The point is moot. Hanjour went through flight training. FL and O_I both lied or are ignorant becasue of their conspiracy threads.
#471. To: Original_Intent (#470)
At no time has either FL or myself said that Hanjour/Hanjoor had not had training.
#472. To: FormerLurker (#462)
What it comes down to is that it was obviously NOT Hanjour flying that plane.
#473. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#472)
Now, we do not know who was behind the stick, or whether it was done by remote control, but I think the data more than supports that Hanjour/Hanjoor was nowhere near competent to perform the feats of aerobatics with a Jumbo Jet that Flight 77 went through.
#474. To: buckeroo (#471)
Who said you or FL did, Mr, strawman? Both of you repeatedly said he had no certification.
#475. To: Dakmar (#473)
Are you kidding, that's Cessna 101 - take an airliner out for a spin over Ohio and fly it straight back into Pentagon airspace by dead reckoning. Never mind that it sounds too far out for even a Hollywood hack to find believable, I think Buckeroo is ordering you to believe it.
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