See other 9/11 Articles
Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source:
Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 20497
Comments: 989
They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government. The Washington Post NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours. He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen. It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered. "To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives." Such as? "There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives." If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 36 percent suspicious A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act." Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities. Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down." But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers. Motley crew The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher. Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ... Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda. "Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model." The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois. Professor suspended The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite. Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday. The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out." Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be. Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss. "Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts. They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd. "Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him." Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting. Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded: "It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed." The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute. No patience Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials. But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists. "They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard. "I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again." In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery. "It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams." The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... " Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.
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#488. To: James Deffenbach (#484)
Yeah, a US pilot/SECRET government agent acting clandestine to kill potentially thousands of innocent Americans would sacrifice his own life for the good of the government. ROTFL... Do some original research on the psychology of a terrorist. They aren't sane, pal. They die for a over-zealous cause not a government mission. No one in the US government dies for the government.... your point is unreal and sinister.... you read too many comick books and watch too many Hollywood movies.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
See how you spun your lies again? ADMIT IT... HANJOUR had a pilot's license which meant he went through FAA certification to include instrumentation training to fly. Nice try buckie but I'm not buying what you're selling. He was granted a commercial ticket - that's slang for license in case you're unfamiliar with it. Just as I could say My Father had a Commercial Ticket, and a Sea Plane Rating, and a Flight Instructor's Rating/Ticket, etc., ....
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
If that were the case then could just say this plane hit the Pentagon and still blame the Muslims. They don't need to hide the videos if that is the case. Yes, they have said all along that 77 hit it, but if they knew it was going to be a drone, they could have just said it hit it and shown the video of it. The only reason they have for not showing it is that there was no plane that hit the Pentagon. I don't think it was a missile either. There was no evidence for a missile, and a missile also presents lots of room for error on a day, place, and time where errors could not be tolerated.
God is always good!
Where have I placed words into anyone's posts? I take their literal post as a method to understand not just how STUPID they are... but also GULLIBLE. Again, show me where I have introduced any exaggeration of ANY poster's posts.... (expect that I shall show you the original material they posted...) ... so come clean... little dakmar.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
ROTFL ROTFL ROTFL More pure BS... everything you say is BS. Now you use "slang" as a method of covering up your own BS.... can't you come clean and admit the GODDAMNED TRUTH? Hani Hanjour was certified through the FAA.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Why do the shills keep minimizing that little factoid? Not important? Anyone could do it? Yeah, you just have to adjust the little wingy-dealies! It's a lot lot the time I had to grab the keys from my friend Bill and drive the '68 4-4-2 through downtown Kokomo; except that there were street signs and were didn't have to fight off hundreds of passengers with a utility knife. Things might have turned out differently, otherwise.
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
You (try to) tell me all the time what I believe. It's funny!
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
I never definitively stated that he didn't have it, I said he more than likely didn't, since there's no way a person with such total lack of ability SHOULD have had one. I thought it was either simply alleged that he had one, or that it was a fake, much like his instructors thought that his license had to have been a fake... From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45 In fact, I found the above article only after you posted a copy of the actual license, where on the license he spelt his name Hanjoor, not Hanjour, as is widely reported in the media. As it turns out, sure he had one, but he SHOULDN'T have had one. That raises two possibilies; Is that supposed to prove anything, other than the fact you're trying to be 4um's new BeAChooser? BeAChooser at least was intelligent, and also had decent manners. You fail in those departments.
There's not too many times you DON'T do it.
What about the penetration within the Pentagon, and the timing of the blast not coinciding with the time the plane is alleged to have hit?
Which is riduculously low and not even beyond the realm of student pilot competency. Fighter planes routinely pull turns of 8 or 9 G's. Private pilots must complete a 2 G turn within 200 feet to even get a Single Engine certificate. Utter nonsense. The point is attempted to be made that this simple 1/2 G turn is somehow a maneuver that pushes the aircraft and its pilot to performance edges a marginal pilot is incapable of achieving. Utterly false. So a pilot pulling 1/2 G when he needs to do a 2G turn to even get a license is supposed to be "high performance," and a plane pulling 1/2 G's when it can withstand 3.9 G's is also supposed to be "high performance?" And these 2 facts are supposed to be "irrelevant?" How about quitting while you're behind, and stop trying to push the threshhold for inane remarks. Yes it is. No it isn't. You yourself say it was only 1/2 G. You probably get more G's riding in an elevator. BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Liar... you barked, begged, claimed .. for Hanjour's records from post#527 for AG to prove. Your personal rantings and ravings went for HUNDREDS of posts throwing the demolition thread off track. It went on until I produced the detailed data at both post #907 & 909. There were over 400 posts dealing with Hanjour because of your insistence, day after day. Now, even GreyLmist and your own links on several threads, PROVE the details that I took the time to shove down your throat because you said he possessed no certifications at all.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Nobody here has made that claim or raised that possibility, other than you. It's commonly known that remote control flight of jet aircraft is entirely possible, in fact airliners have been flown remotely, both by NASA and by the military.
You're the liar bud. I asked for you to produce the documentation, big deal. Asking for documentation is not a statement, it's a request. Do you know the difference between a declaration and a question? Did they not teach you that in EE school?
More TWOOFER_FAERIE™ BS, 'eh? NO FACTS, NO TRUTH, NO WITNESSES ..... JUST PURE BS from you FL.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
A .52G turn is not a "precision turn" by any stretch of the imagination, when a student pilot must pull off a full circle 2G banked turn within 200 feet and a few degrees of starting heading, just to get a private pilot license. The standards for commercial license, which Hanjour had at one time, until he let his medical lapse, are even tighter. Furthermore the plane was wobbling and clipping items on its way in. It was not head on, or straight and level. The pilot was struggling to control the craft, and wanted speed over control to maximize damage.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So now it is just NBFD, 'eh? You liar.... I can go back on the demolition thread wherein you made at least two remarcks about Hanjour not having a license or certification... however, it was with AG.... want some BIG RED LIPSTICK TO WEAR on your on lying lips?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license. I said I didn't THINK he did since he certainly wasn't qualified to have one, so stop putting words into my mouth I never said, then accusing me of being a liar such as yourself. It's obvious from the reams of info I've tried to get you to look at, ALL extremely well researched, that he SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY sort of pilot's license. You're too busy foaming at the mouth however to bother yourself with that. Oh that's right, you don't believe the newspaper reports when it contradicts YOUR beliefs, you only like newspaper reports when it talks about those nasty "terrorists" who single handidly defeated the US military the morning of 9/11/2001.
From Ohio to Arlington? That's a pretty tall order!
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
You are still engaging in dishonest dissembling and are now are trying to cover your piss poor logic and being called on your logical fallacies. The point of course is that Hanjour/Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot, had NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time, or ANY place EVER flown a Jet Aircraft of ANY kind. In fact every instructor who knew him who has commented or testified has stated that he was incompetent as a pilot and I defy you to find and cite ANY exception to that. Go blow smoke up someone elses ass. FLUSSSSSSSSSSSH!
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head. The critical questions are what was the bank angle of the turn, and what were the G's the turn generated? That's already been discussed, and both factors are well below what's considered "critical."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're an obvious shillster there bud, repeating the same lies, over and over, hoping that if you sling enough crap at someone, it'll eventually stick. You are unable to discuss this rationally, I feel like I'm trying to argue with a 10 year old. Sure ok, go find those posts and provide a link. Find them, or come back here, beg my forgiveness, and apologize for lying about me.
So flying less than 60 feet off the deck at 400+ mph is standard airliner flight procedure, and any ole kid off the street could bring that baby down at 530 mph and level off at 20 feet, eh?
And with the transponders turned off...what? They just go set up chaise lounges on the lawn and watch the unfolding ballet?
"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs
Even worse he knows he lost the debate a while back - say 200 posts, or better, ago. At this point he is just trying to wipe the fecal matter off of his face and throw up a cloud of smoke as some sort of stoopid attempt to either save face or try to make some point that he is incapable of making. After all the gubbermint told him that Hanjoor was an Ace among Aces - a vertiable "Top Gun" behind the stick of a Jumbo Jet (despite NEVER EVER having flown ANY type of Jet at ANY TIME and being characterized by his Flight Instructors as incompetent and an Air Hazard). Who are those stupid Flight Instructors to say otherwise Buckies Gawd has spoken?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
It's not the gravity involved that made it a precision turn, it was the speed, turn radius, and rate of descent. So you know more than an aeronautical engineer who has flown heavy aircraft, eh? From The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane." And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him. But even that wasn't good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his "missile" was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon - and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men's lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway - -, there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing. - - I shan't get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.) Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000 pounds airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH. The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing- loading (such as a commercial jets), i.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile. Wrong. The point is you said Hanjor did not ever have a license, and when clouted on that, you then went on to falsely call a Commercial Pilot Certificate a "Learning Permit" when in fact the closest thing to a "Learning Permit" is a Student Pilot Certificate. That is not what the FAA said on April 15, 1999. Commercial Pilot Type Certification can be done on simulators. Hanjour had access to, and did log hours, on simulators. Debunked again. Violating your own self-propagandized rules again, phony windbag. Twenty Five Rules to Suppress Truth 5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach.... 6. Hit and Run. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And with the transponders turned off...what? They just go set up chaise lounges on the lawn and watch the unfolding ballet? Don't forget the cute little drinkies with the neat little paper parasols and a twist of lime.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
He's following many of the standard disinfo tactics. I think something smells a bit fishy in buckie's house...
He failed the simulator training, skipping class most of time, doing poorly while there. Debunked.
Liar. @post 527 you started your drool and groveling for another 400 posts.... "we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Nila S is a fly by night commentator who does not have the working email address his blurb claims. I know because I emailed him and got a bounce back. A much better analysis is done by former Air Force Pilot Steve Koeppel of Palm Springs, who explains the 270 degree turn and the reasons for the overshoot of the Pentagon by an inexperienced hijacker.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
On a different and smaller class of aircraft, 737, where he was advised to stop wasting his money as he was so awful. And so that is your counter? LOL! Here's another one for your collection: Eat Me! (I never said I NEVER use vulgarisms just rarely, and only when they serve a purpose other than to merely be vulgar - such as to emphasize the laughability of your post. So, please to stuff your alleged gotcha in the appropriate orofice.)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
What did he ***fail*** and where is your proof? You don't "fail" any instructions until you get tested. You still get to log the hours. Takeoffs? Didn't need to do them anyway. Landings? Didn't need to do them anyway. English? Didn't need it anyway. Couldn't enter the hours spent on simulator into logbook? Wrong. Debunked.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well ok, you've proven me wrong buck. I suppose after asking for a copy of the license for the longest time, and not seeing AG able to come up with it, I simply assumed there WAS no license. That was ONE post, posted in the wee hours of the morning, which I posted AFTER both you and he were launching salvos of vulgarities at anyone who disagreed with you. So yeah, I apparently got a bit pissed off and responded tersely. Now when are YOU going to apologize for acting like a gutter mouthed idiot the majority of that thread?
LOL! That's funny.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Here's one for you, k00k, with your stinking hat on. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post the following information concerning Hanjour's commercial license; 1. The name of the FAA inspector who signed off on his commercial certificate 2. The name of his commericial flight school and instructor(s) 3. Find any information on his multi-engine license or certificate 4. Find any information on his single-engine license You see genius, you can't walk into an FAA office and tell them you want a commericial license, have them say ok, here ya go. You HAVE to FIRST take lessons for a SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE license, solo, acquire flight hours, THEN take a test with an FAA examiner, similar to driver's road test, where every aspect of a pilot's abilities are scrutinized, THEN if successful a PRIVATE SINGLE ENGINE license is issued. THEN, in order to fly MULTI-ENGINE planes, you need to take lessons for that and go through a similar process. THEN, a pilot would need to fly a simulator and take lessons for IFR flight, ie. flying with instruments only, and be examined for that, and be issued a IFR certificate. THEN, a pilot would need to log many hours of time IFR, and take lessons for a COMMERCIAL license, THEN be examined by the FAA for that. So go ahead and provide that information concerning his flight training and FAA certifications. "we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
What did he ***fail*** and where is your proof? You don't "fail" any instructions until you get tested. You still get to log the hours. Takeoffs? Didn't need to do them anyway. Landings? Didn't need to do them anyway. English? Didn't need it anyway. Couldn't enter the hours spent on simulator into logbook? Wrong. Every Instructor he had who has spoken has said he was incompetent and could barely fly a single engine propeller driven plane - without exception. What schlimiel. So, are you going to endlessly treat us with more of your logic chopping and logical fallacies? Can you roll over too?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestBut you know how those suicide bombers/pilots are.
#489. To: buckeroo (#482)
I grant the point. Hani Hanjoor had a Commercial Ticket
#490. To: FormerLurker (#458)
(Edited)
It had to have been some sort of drone, loaded with explosives perhaps, or maybe even armed with a missile which it could have fired immediately before impact.
#491. To: Dakmar (#486)
#492. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#489)
Nice try buckie but I'm not buying what you're selling.
He was granted a commercial ticket - that's slang for license in case you're unfamiliar with it.
Just as I could say My Father had a Commercial Ticket, and a Sea Plane Rating, and a Flight Instructor's Rating/Ticket, etc., ....
#493. To: James Deffenbach (#487)
Thing is, Hanjour didn't crash it, he FLEW IT from Ohio to Washington DC
#494. To: buckeroo (#491)
Where have I placed words into anyone's posts?
#495. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, ALL (#471)
Who said you or FL did, Mr, strawman? Both of you repeatedly said he had no certification.
Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46
It's just one further indication that something REALLY smells to high heaven in all of this.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#496. To: buckeroo (#492)
ROTFL
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"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#497. To: buckeroo, Dakmar (#491)
Again, show me where I have introduced any exaggeration of ANY poster's posts...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#498. To: RickyJ (#490)
There was no evidence for a missile, and a missile also presents lots of room for error on a day, place, and time where errors could not be tolerated.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#499. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, FormerLurker (#454)
The turn as a point of fact generated about .52 G's.
That the Boeing 757 can has withstood up to 3.9 G's in an emergency maneuver is irrelevant and is a Red Herring which diverts from the point at play.
The question is not whether the plane could withstand a 7,000 foot spiraling descent, in 2.5 minutes
Is a maneuver which is beyond, well beyond, the known competencies of that known incompetent pilot Hani Hanjour.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#500. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#495)
I never definitively stated that he didn't have it,
#501. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach, Original_Intent (#488)
Yeah, a US pilot/SECRET government agent acting clandestine to kill potentially thousands of innocent Americans would sacrifice his own life for the good of the government.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#502. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#500)
Liar... you barked, begged, claimed .. for Hanjour's records
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#503. To: FormerLurker (#496)
BeAChooser at least was intelligent, and also had decent manners. You fail in those departments.
#504. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#457)
Thing is, Hanjour didn't crash it, he FLEW IT from Ohio to Washington DC, descended into a precision turn
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#505. To: FormerLurker (#502)
I asked for you to produce the documentation, big deal.
#506. To: buckeroo (#500)
PROVE the details that I took the time to shove down your throat because you said he possessed no certifications at all.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#507. To: AGAviator (#504)
A .52G turn is not a "precision turn" by any stretch of the imagination, when a student pilot must pull off a full circle 2G banked turn within 200 feet and a few degrees of starting heading, just to get a private pilot license.
#508. To: AGAviator (#499)
#509. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#463)
So all of the senior air traffic controllers who were there at Dulles International Airport "weren't thinking critically", you are smarter and know more than them
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#510. To: buckeroo (#505)
So now it is just NBFD, 'eh? You liar
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#511. To: AGAviator (#509)
The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#512. To: AGAviator (#509)
The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head.
#513. To: FormerLurker, Buckmonster Fullofit, buckeroo, wudidiz, All (#506)
You're too busy foaming at the mouth however to bother yourself with that. Oh that's right, you don't believe the newspaper reports when it contradicts YOUR beliefs, you only like newspaper reports when it talks about those nasty "terrorists" who single handidly defeated the US military the morning of 9/11/2001.
#514. To: AGAviator (#504)
A .52G turn is not a "precision turn" by any stretch of the imagination
According to FAA radar controllers, "Flight 77" then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees per minute while descending at 3,500 feet per minute, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver, - - one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn't have spelt the word if his life depended on it. - -
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#515. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#508)
The point of course is that Hanjour/Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot, had NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time, or ANY place EVER flown a Jet Aircraft of ANY kind.
The point of course is that Hanjour/Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot
NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time, or ANY place EVER flown a Jet Aircraft of ANY kind
Go blow smoke up someone elses ass.
FLUSSSSSSSSSSSH
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#516. To: Dakmar, AGAviator, a.k.a. Tailspin Charley (#512)
The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head.
#517. To: Original_Intent (#513)
Who are those stupid Flight Instructors to say otherwise Buckies Gawd has spoken?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#518. To: AGAviator (#515)
Commercial Pilot Type Certification can be done on simulators. Hanjour had access to, and did log hours, on simulators.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#519. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#506)
Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license. I said I didn't THINK he did since he certainly wasn't qualified to have one, so stop putting words into my mouth I never said, then accusing me of being a liar such as yourself.
To: AGAviator: It doesn't exist, bullshit artist. There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.
And then you continued the monotony for ANOTHER 400 posts, BS artist.
#520. To: FormerLurker, budkeroo, turtle (#514)
The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#521. To: FormerLurker (#506)
Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license.
Post #544: To AGAviator: Again, find his records indicating he ever took lessons and ever held a private license. Find the names of his prior flight schools.
Liar!
#522. To: AGAviator (#515)
Commercial Pilot Type Certification can be done on simulators. Hanjour had access to, and did log hours, on simulators.
Debunked again.
(My comment): Go blow smoke up someone elses ass.
FLUSSSSSSSSSSSH "Violating your own self-propagandized rules again, phony windbag."
#523. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#518)
He failed the simulator training
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#524. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#519)
To: AGAviator: It doesn't exist, bullshit artist. There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#525. To: Dakmar (#493)
Yeah, you just have to adjust the little wingy-dealies! It's a lot lot the time I had to grab the keys from my friend Bill and drive the '68 4-4-2 through downtown Kokomo; except that there were street signs and were didn't have to fight off hundreds of passengers with a utility knife. Things might have turned out differently, otherwise.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#526. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#522)
Here's another one for your collection: Eat Me!
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#527. To: FormerLurker (#506)
Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license.
Post #553: To AGAviator: So I'm supposed to believe YOU, the forum liar, rather than the news reports that reported the facts concerning Hanjour's background, eh?
#528. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#523)
He failed the simulator training
.
.
.