See other 9/11 Articles
Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source:
Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 17125
Comments: 989
They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government. The Washington Post NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours. He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen. It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered. "To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives." Such as? "There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives." If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 36 percent suspicious A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act." Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities. Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down." But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers. Motley crew The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher. Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ... Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda. "Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model." The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois. Professor suspended The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite. Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday. The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out." Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be. Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss. "Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts. They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd. "Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him." Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting. Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded: "It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed." The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute. No patience Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials. But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists. "They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard. "I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again." In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery. "It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams." The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... " Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.
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#632. To: James Deffenbach (#619)
And "massaged and twittered" as the idiot judge said about Obama's eligibility to be president (not that he had any proof of it, he just thought it sounded good). That is mostly what the shills have phrases in a talking points briefing book that they cut and paste so that "it sounds good". The problem they run into is that they are almost bright and come unglued when faced with someone who dissects their spin for the misleading disinformation bullshit it is.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Why won't the government shills answer the questions about all the videos that were taken up, some of which were stolen from private owners? Not all the video taken that day was on government cameras, yet they seized every scrap they could get their hands on. And, as has been so well stated, if those videos actually backed up their fairy tale they would have been showing them nonstop starting that same day.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. All that and still no other pentagon videos released.
We were thinking the same thing.
You are intentionally misrepresenting their full in context statement, you are bull$hitting once again. The explicit statement of the controllers, including ATC Danielle O'Brien, on a video I have repeatedly posted, they say "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." Not that it was not a 757. But they did not expect 757's to be flown in the manner they saw the 757 shown. The full in context quote, not your half-a$$ed, Half Truth cherry pick, is on 0:44 to 1:25 of the following video, Debunked. Again. Oh yeah. How did Danielle O'Brien pick a 757 in her quote if the plane was not in fact a 757? Why didn't she say it was a 767 or a 737 or a 747? Hmmm? Wack- job ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There were hundreds of pictures and videos confiscated for evaluation. What makes you think they were not returned?
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts? The shills aren't interested in facts - hell, they can barely read and are vocabulary challenged as evidenced about the constant whining about my using a vocabulary that flies over their heads like a 757 20 feet off the ground flying 530 mph into a wall only 26.5 feet higher than the plane. They're not interested in facts they're interested in cutting and pasting the PsyOp talking points on their list.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The explicit statement of the controllers, including ATC Danielle O'Brien, on a video I have repeatedly posted, they say "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe." Not that it was not a 757. But they did not expect 757's to be flown in the manner they saw the 757 shown. The full in context quote, not your half-a$$ed, Half Truth cherry pick, is on 0:44 to 1:11 of the following video, Debunked. Again. You conveniently omitted the sentence before that which you cut and pasted... A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9 You've been caught in a lie, yet again.
Oooooooooo! I am so impressed. You even know how to quote out of context and avoid every other point in the post. Well just so you don't forget "Play it again Sam." As usual you are serially dishonest, misrepresenting and mischaraterizing the observed events. From Al-Qaeda's Top Gun A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9 CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10 The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12 According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13 The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16 Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17 In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The links contained at your link either don't work (bad URLs) or are complete bunk and conspiracy theory.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
The facts concerning the air traffic controllers comments have been posted how many times these past several days, yet AG thought he'd pull a fast one and omit the part that says, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane", and claims that they never said anything of the sort. Either he's getting really sloppy, or is just that feeble minded he thinks we'll forget what we've read and posted.
That was complete bunk.... his links point to nowhere or LALA land.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Huh? Aren't you Half Tw00fers claiming the 757 didn't hit the lamps? Now in your haste to put up some misrepresented shlock, you don't even bother to check your details with your talking points. LOLOL!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You have a consistent posting method that clearly shows you forget what you post as soon as you submit the same.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77 Wrong. The autopsies and dead lists of victims were separated from suspects. The hijackers were treated separatedly from the people innocently killed in the crashes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The links contained at your link either don't work (bad URLs) or are complete bunk and conspiracy theory. Sure buckie. SOME of the links are dead, such as the CNN link for instance. The majority of them work. The only bunk being presented here comes from you and your sidekick, AGAviator.
The autopsies and dead lists of victims were separated from suspects. The hijackers were treated separatedly from the people innocently killed in the crashes. Then provide some proof that the autopsy results indicate that arabs were indeed onboard Flight 77.
Of course he did - it didn't fit with his attempt to misrepresent the quote and create a false image of something other than what the import of the quote was i.e., that whoever flew that plane wasn't the known incompetent Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor who had never flown ANY kind of Jet Aircraft at ANY time, under ANY circumstances, AND was characterized without exception by every instructor he ever dealt with as I-N-C-O-M-P-E-T-E-N-T. (Note to AGBloviator: Incompetent means that he could not fly worth a tinker's damn. If you need me to use smaller one syllable words that you understand please feel free to say so. I'm nothing if not accomodating. Or you could always ask your mommy.) (Note to FL: Notice how he oscillates between Hanjoor being a well qualified candidate for Rictoften's Flying Circus and his being incompetent and lucky? Boy just can't make up his "mind". Just between you an me I think the boy's a little confused.)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Aren't you Half Tw00fers claiming the 757 didn't hit the lamps? Oh Boy... here comes some more subterfuge!
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
You Full Liars are claiming that a 757 did in fact do that, yet witnesses place the 757 NORTH of that approach, and two Pentagon police officers state those poles WEREN'T knocked down immediately after the impact. The news reports assume that the government wasn't lying about the light poles. So why did YOU lie about what the air traffic controllers said about the manuevers the alleged 757 performed?
It doesn't matter your main post was about some shill with a FOIA .... and it is impossible to verify what he received... other than his "opinion."
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Same as in the media's presentation of the story, where one day he's an ace pilot, and the next, an incompentant monkey who couldn't handle a Cessna 172.
The facts concerning the air traffic controllers comments have been posted how many times these past several days, yet AG thought he'd pull a fast one and omit the part that says, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane", and claims that they never said anything of the sort. Either he's getting really sloppy, or is just that feeble minded he thinks we'll forget what we've read and posted. At this point I think his main concern is to attempt to muddy the trail and create the illusion that the facts don't say what they do and to make the thread unreadable to anyone not already in the know. His main objective now seems to be to repeat endlessly variations on the same discredited and disproven (now multiple times) cut and paste lines from his book of talking points.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Shills are people such as yourself and your sidekick, AGAviator, who twist, distort, and misrepresent any evidence presented in an attempt to prop up the government's official conspiracy theory concerning the 9/11 attacks. The person who you are calling a "shill", Dr. Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D, has much more credibility than yourself, so I'll take his word over yours, any day of the week.
It proves he's not here posting for his own personal enjoyment.
Same as in the media's presentation of the story, where one day he's an ace pilot, and the next, an incompentant monkey who couldn't handle a Cessna 172. As with all stories subject to heavy spin and PsyOp control the best data is to be found early on where the contradictions are more apparent and they have not established a set line of spin. So, the various pilot quotes etc., came early and then the controlled media was clued in on the official spin and have since followed the script. It has been interesting to follow the evolution of the spin over time. Initially it was the Sooper hijackers doing aerobatics in Jumbo Jets that "no one could have ever conceived of". Then the info on "Operation Bojinka" came out, and the gag order, which remains in effect to this day, was put on the Air Traffic Controllers. As well then the backgrounds on the supposed SOOPER Hijackers started getting researched and far from being devout Muslims they were known to drink heavily and consort with an assorted collection of whores and bimbos - none of which a devout Muslim would do. Particularly not one on a supposed "Holy Jihad™". Likewise the towers which have gone from Magick® Jet Fuel that could burn multiple times to physical properties previously unknown to science (and still are outside of the 911 SPIN).
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
I can't seem to help myself, laughing so hard it brings tears to my eyes. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
It proves he's not here posting for his own personal enjoyment. No, judging by the level of frustration at being proved false multiple times and his tactics exposed I am sure that he long ago ceased enjoying himself. No bonus for him this week.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
So your ***proof*** that it wasn't a 757, is an ATC saying that flying a 757 in that manner would be ***unsafe.*** Hey I know you're a little dim in your wattage output up there, but has it ever occurred to you that a suicide hijacker is not the least bit interested in maneuvering an aircraft ***safely?***** Just as a suicide hijacker is not interested in the skills needed to be a safe pilot. Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed. As is usual for a Half Truther, you omit the explicit statements of the flight instructors saying he was competent to do these tasks. AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 22:48:48 ET ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The controllers gave an account consistent with what eyewitnesses observed. Where you Half Tw00fers miss the mark is your a$$umptions that a suicide pilot would need the necessary skills a pilot interested in being safe would need - which he would not. And that a suicide pilot would fly a passenger aircraft in the same manner that a safety-conscious regular pilot would fly the craft - which he would not. So basically your half Two00fer spiel about Hanjour's piloting the 757 is supposed to be impossible, are the numerous observations that Hanjour lacked the skills and the inclination to be a safe pilot, and the 757 observed by the ATC's making a descending turn before disappearing from their screens was not being flown safely. Well, DUHHHHHH! Of course it wasn't going to be flown safely by a safety-conscious pilot! It was being flown by a suicide hijacker. LOLOL!!!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Already debuked, Half Two00fer halfwit. Get it through your dense head that Hanjour was a suicide hijacker, and couldn't care less about observing flight control safety protocols which normal pilots train diligently to follow. The question at issue is whether Hanjour was a qualified suicide hijacker, not whether he was a qualified safe pilot. And the same people who you quote as saying he was not a good pilot, say he had enough skills to be a hijacker, which you deceitfully leave out of your Half Truther k00kspiel. Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed. As is usual for a Half Truther, you omit the explicit statements of the flight instructors saying he was competent to do these tasks. AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 22:48:48 ET ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Having had all of your strawmen burned and finding yourself without a resident thought of your own I guess you figured, or your boss told you, that it was time to return to the scene of your slime. You are so delightfully predictable. However, I am not going to waste a lot of time with you. You are still avoiding all of the points that prove your load of smoke to be a load of smoke - and rather foul smelling smoke at that. For the edification of the viewing audience the information you consistently avoid and attempt to obscure. One more time with feeling: As usual you are serially dishonest, misrepresenting and mischaraterizing the observed events. From Al-Qaeda's Top Gun A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9 CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10 The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12 According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13 The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16 Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17 In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
The question at issue is whether Hanjour was a qualified suicide hijacker, not whether he was a qualfied safe pilot. And the same people who you quote as saying he was not a good pilot, say he had enough skills to be a hijacker, which you deceitfully leave out of your Half Truther k00kspiel. You're trying to sell the idea that any ole chump could fly a jumbo jet, perform precision manuevers, and dip it down to tree level at over 400 mph, then descend in a blink of an eye to 20 feet, keeping the nose level somehow, and not touching the ground for the last split second before it impacted the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall, hitting at 530 mph. Sorry, but I'm not buying it.
Already debunked And the footnote to your “Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” quote says You can't even provide a direct quote with specifics, Half Truther. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where you Half Tw00fers miss the mark is your a$$umptions that a suicide pilot would need the necessary skills a pilot interested in being safe would need - which he would not. And that a suicide pilot would fly a passenger aircraft in the same manner that a safety-conscious regular pilot would fly the craft - which he would not. Are you neglecting the reports from experienced pilots and aviation experts? CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10 The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12 You haven't debunked anything. Not a single thing.
The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. []7;] You can't even provide a direct quote with specifics, Half Truther. From CNN.com - Hijackers 'knew what they were doing' (CNN) -- To pull off the coordinated aerial attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon on Tuesday, the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators, a flight expert said. All four commercial jetliners seized in the air for the deadly assaults had just started transcontinental flights, ensuring that they carried the maximum amount of fuel. One of the planes, United Airlines Flight 93, for example, could have carried as much as 200,000 pounds of the highly explosive fuel, according to one source, a veteran pilot. By seizing four planes, diverting them from scheduled flight paths and managing to crash two into the twin towers of the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon, they must have had plenty of skill and training. "They know what they were doing," said the source, a pilot with a major carrier for more than 30 years. Of course he is. It does not align with the misrepresentation he's making. The talking points manual clearly proscribes paying any attention to any data, no matter how well documented, which is contrary to the "Official Spin©".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
All four commercial jetliners seized in the air for the deadly assaults had just started transcontinental flights, ensuring that they carried the maximum amount of fuel. One of the planes, United Airlines Flight 93, for example, could have carried as much as 200,000 pounds of the highly explosive fuel, according to one source, a veteran pilot. By seizing four planes, diverting them from scheduled flight paths and managing to crash two into the twin towers of the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon, they must have had plenty of skill and training. "They know what they were doing," said the source, a pilot with a major carrier for more than 30 years. I couldn't but note how this fit with the early "Official Spin©" which we can compare to how it has morphed over the years as elements of the "Official Spin©" have been proven false and/or intentionally misleading - kind of like Bloviator. Points that stand out: The emphasis on the overstated quantity and "explosiveness" of the fuel - which we now know, and NIST was forced to admit, was all burned up in the first ten minutes after impact - much of it outside the towers. The repeated emphasis on what SOOOOOOOPER pilots the alleged patsies for the crime were, which is belied by the records and testimony since researched.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Reminds me of AGW proponents.
Name calling is juvenile.
Oh, bloviator is one of those too. He is a firm advocate of all kinds of junk science.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
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#633. To: IRTorqued (#627)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#634. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#631)
#635. To: James Deffenbach (#634)
#636. To: O_Ink, buckeroo (#629)
(Edited)
An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#637. To: IRTorqued (#627)
there were how many other videos confiscated that day that remain under lock and key
#638. To: FormerLurker (#631)
#639. To: AGAviator, ALL (#626)
They did not say that, you are bull$hitting once again.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#640. To: AGAviator (#636)
#641. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#631)
Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
#642. To: Original_Intent (#638)
Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#643. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#638)
Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts?
#644. To: OInk, buckeroo (#640)
The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#645. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#642)
... he [AG] thinks we'll forget what we've read and posted.
#646. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#631)
Are you aware of the fact that no arabs were on Flight 77?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#647. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#641)
Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#648. To: AGAviator (#646)
Wrong.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#649. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#639)
You conveniently omitted the sentence before that which you cut and pasted...
#650. To: AGAviator (#644)
Huh?
#651. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, Original_Intent (#644)
Aren't you Half Tw00fers claiming the 757 didn't hit the lamps?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#652. To: FormerLurker (#647)
The majority of them work.
#653. To: Original_Intent (#649)
(Note to FL: Notice how he oscillates between Hanjoor being a well qualified candidate for Rictoften's Flying Circus and his being incompetent and lucky? Boy just can't make up his "mind". Just between you an me I think the boy's a little confused.)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#654. To: FormerLurker (#642)
Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts?
#655. To: buckeroo (#652)
It doesn't matter your main post was about some shill with a FOIA
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#656. To: Original_Intent (#654)
At this point I think his main concern is to attempt to muddy the trail and create the illusion that the facts don't say what they do and to make the thread unreadable to anyone not already in the know. His main objective now seems to be to repeat endlessly variations on the same discredited and disproven (now multiple times) cut and paste lines from his book of talking points.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#657. To: FormerLurker (#653)
(Note to FL: Notice how he oscillates between Hanjoor being a well qualified candidate for Rictoften's Flying Circus and his being incompetent and lucky? Boy just can't make up his "mind". Just between you an me I think the boy's a little confused.)
#658. To: James Deffenbach (#605)
Don't you be laughing, it will bring a tear to his eye.
#659. To: FormerLurker (#656)
At this point I think his main concern is to attempt to muddy the trail and create the illusion that the facts don't say what they do and to make the thread unreadable to anyone not already in the know. His main objective now seems to be to repeat endlessly variations on the same discredited and disproven (now multiple times) cut and paste lines from his book of talking points.
#660. To: OInk, buckeroo (#640)
(Edited)
"You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."
The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#661. To: buckeroo, (#651)
So why did YOU lie about what the air traffic controllers said about the manuevers the alleged 757 performed?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#662. To: OInk, buckeroo (#649)
(Edited)
Incompetent means that he could not fly worth a tinker's damn
The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#663. To: AGAviator (#660)
#664. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#662)
Get it through your dense head that Hanjour was a suicide hijacker, and couldn't care less about observing flight control safety protocols which normal pilots train diligently to follow.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#665. To: OInk, buckeroo (#663)
(Edited)
A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8
(1) A 1/2 G turn does not require any special level of knowlege or capability.
Cite specifics of this supposed "knowledgeable and capable" aviation skills.
(2) A banked turn of fewer degrees than is required for a private certificiate also does not require any special knowledge or capability
(3) A wobbly wing approach on a nap of the earth flight shows a pilot struggling to maintain control of the aircraftThe quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. []7;]
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#666. To: AGAviator (#661)
The controllers gave an account consistent with what eyewitnesses observed.
A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#667. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach (#665)
Already debunked
#668. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#665)
And the footnote to your “Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” quote says
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#669. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG, all (#666)
Are you neglecting the reports from experienced pilots and aviation experts?
#670. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#668)
From CNN.com - Hijackers 'knew what they were doing'
#671. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG (#669)
The talking points manual clearly proscribes paying any attention to any data, no matter how well documented, which is contrary to the "Official Spin©".
#672. To: farmfriend, AGBloviator, FormerLurker, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG (#671)
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