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Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source:
Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 20354
Comments: 989
They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government. The Washington Post NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours. He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen. It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered. "To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives." Such as? "There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives." If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 36 percent suspicious A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act." Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities. Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down." But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers. Motley crew The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher. Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ... Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda. "Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model." The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois. Professor suspended The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite. Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday. The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out." Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be. Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss. "Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts. They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd. "Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him." Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting. Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded: "It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed." The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute. No patience Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials. But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists. "They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard. "I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again." In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery. "It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams." The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... " Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.
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#667. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach (#665)
You haven't debunked anything. Not a single thing.
The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. []7;] You can't even provide a direct quote with specifics, Half Truther. From CNN.com - Hijackers 'knew what they were doing' (CNN) -- To pull off the coordinated aerial attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon on Tuesday, the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators, a flight expert said. All four commercial jetliners seized in the air for the deadly assaults had just started transcontinental flights, ensuring that they carried the maximum amount of fuel. One of the planes, United Airlines Flight 93, for example, could have carried as much as 200,000 pounds of the highly explosive fuel, according to one source, a veteran pilot. By seizing four planes, diverting them from scheduled flight paths and managing to crash two into the twin towers of the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon, they must have had plenty of skill and training. "They know what they were doing," said the source, a pilot with a major carrier for more than 30 years. Of course he is. It does not align with the misrepresentation he's making. The talking points manual clearly proscribes paying any attention to any data, no matter how well documented, which is contrary to the "Official Spin©".
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
All four commercial jetliners seized in the air for the deadly assaults had just started transcontinental flights, ensuring that they carried the maximum amount of fuel. One of the planes, United Airlines Flight 93, for example, could have carried as much as 200,000 pounds of the highly explosive fuel, according to one source, a veteran pilot. By seizing four planes, diverting them from scheduled flight paths and managing to crash two into the twin towers of the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon, they must have had plenty of skill and training. "They know what they were doing," said the source, a pilot with a major carrier for more than 30 years. I couldn't but note how this fit with the early "Official Spin©" which we can compare to how it has morphed over the years as elements of the "Official Spin©" have been proven false and/or intentionally misleading - kind of like Bloviator. Points that stand out: The emphasis on the overstated quantity and "explosiveness" of the fuel - which we now know, and NIST was forced to admit, was all burned up in the first ten minutes after impact - much of it outside the towers. The repeated emphasis on what SOOOOOOOPER pilots the alleged patsies for the crime were, which is belied by the records and testimony since researched.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Reminds me of AGW proponents.
Name calling is juvenile.
Oh, bloviator is one of those too. He is a firm advocate of all kinds of junk science.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Speaking of the jet fuel, and it's supernatural abilities to bring down two 110 story skyscrapers on the morning of 9/11, where's the huge fire and fire damage on the Pentagon wall where the left wing of the 757 was alleged to have struck? Maybe they used some that Magickal Jet Fuel on Flight 77, where not only can it bring down skycrapers, but it can just VANISH INTO NOTHING INSTANTLY!!! It also makes WINGS PASS THROUGH WINDOWS, as can be seen by the fact that the windows in the area of impact are NOT BROKEN. The area of impact would have extended to the left of the blue line in the image below. Isn't this the part where he says the wings "grinded" into nothing?
Looking up footnote 8, it is a paraphrase and not a direct, specific quote. An air traffic controller..." You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9 Yes, a suicide hijcaker will fly a 757 in an unsafe manner. Why did he just so happen to mention a 757? How did he know it was a 757 and not a PA-135? HAHAHAHAHA! So they are saying it was Flight 77. Any questions about what flight it was, LOL? Those things will happen when you start out a$$uming someone who had a valid commercial pilot certificate "couldn't fly at all." So that puts the lie to the claims he "couldn't fly at all." That being said, there is nothing really extraordinary about a 1/2 G turn that is not even up to the 2G standards required to get a private license, let alone a commercial certificate. Flight 77's turn was 1/2 G. Private pilot standards are 2G. Figher pilots pull 8 to 9 G's. Not even close. Debunked and pwned.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post #571: Never Answered Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed. As is usual for a Half Truther, you omit the explicit statements of the flight instructors saying he was competent to do these tasks. AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 22:48:48 ET ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Private pilot standards are 2G. Figher pilots pull 8 to 9 G's. Not even close. Debunked and pwned. From The Washington Post Controllers had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the president's mansion and was traveling at a gut-wrenching speed -- full throttle. But just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said. Less than an hour after two other jets demolished the World Trade Center in Manhattan, Flight 77 carved a hole in the nation's defense headquarters, a hole five stories high and 200 feet wide. Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm, possibly one of the hijackers. Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious. Details about who was on Flight 77, when it took off and what happened on board were tightly held by airline, airport and security officials last night. All said that the FBI had asked them not to divulge details. "Because of the heightened security due to the nature of today's events," American Airlines said in a statement, the airline "is working closely with U.S. government authorities and will not release more information at this time." My Gawd! You're right! The Pentagon should have collapsed neatly into its own footprint at nearly freefall velocity, but it didn't. Hmmmmmmmmmm? Bad batch of Magickal Jet Fuel™?
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Debunked and wrong. The tighter turn, the more G's the pilot pulls. An 8G - 9G turn is tight. US, NATO, and Russian military fighter pilots regularly pull 8 G+ turns. A 2G turn is required to get a private pilot license. A 1/2 G turn is not even up to private pilot standards.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker. Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed. Now what makes a "competent hijacker"? Let's see, say IF by some act of whatever god he prayed to, he was able to navigate a 757 from Ohio to Washington, DC, a task he would have been unable to do since he had flunked out of simulator training and was a poor student who frequently skipped class. Say he managed to get the aircraft down to 7000 feet from 35,000 feet once near Washington, line up with the White House according to first reports, later reports indicate he was heading straight for the section of the Pentagon containing high value targets such as Rumsfeld's office, let's ask the following question; WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE VEER AWAY AND PERFORM PRECISION MANUEVERS to line up with the barely occupied OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE PENTAGON INSTEAD? A SUICIDE PILOT would have simply reduced power and dove into the roof of the Pentagon, a target the size of 22 football fields, rather than performing complex maneuvers and impossible feats such as flying at over 400 mph at treetop level, then down to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph in order to hit a 71 foot tall target, the Pentagon wall. So I guess he WAS an "incompetent hijacker" since an "incompetent pilot" wouldn't have been able to do any of those things, yet that IS what he did, or SOMEONE did, as that is how the plane flew its final approach. Yet, from ALL reports, he WAS an incompetent pilot, so he COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE PILOT OF FLIGHT 77, if that aircraft even WAS Flight 77.
An 8G - 9G turn is tight. US, NATO, and Russian military fighter pilots regularly pull 8 G+ turns. A 2G turn is required to get a private pilot license. A 1/2 G turn is not even up to private pilot standards. The quote was from experts, live with it. The fact is, it is NOT EASY to properly control a large heavy jet aircraft, where the thrust needs to be precisely controlled and tuned for a precision turn involving descent, along with proper usage of the lift of the aircraft, where Hanjour NEVER FLEW A JET AIRCRAFT before, and was an EXTREMELY POOR STUDENT in flight school. Experienced pilots would have been challenged to control the aircraft in the manner it was controlled, and air traffic controllers DID compare it to the performance of a military aircraft, not a passenger jet.
He was interviewed AFTER the fact genius, not BEFORE. News reports identified the aircraft as Flight 77, a Boeing 757. Did you think anyone alive and cognent that day was unaware of that?
Ground by Magickal Glass, where it can destroy aluminum wings travelling at 530 mph, and make jet fuel vanish.
in a crooked kind of way.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Yeah, I knew your mind was comin' back to you. ahaha.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Wtong. The quote is a paraphrase, and the facts of the turn contradict the paraphrases. That's why he hit the back of the building instead of the front, and why the plane was wobbling as it came in to crash, and why it clipped light poles and ingested a luminary into the right engine, and why it hit the face of a recently renovated part of the building with extra reinforcement, at an oblique angle instead of straight on.. None of those specifics are examples of skilled piloting, much less fighter pilot quality piloting. Live with it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for tackling that one. I've been ignoring it because it was such an obvious "have you quit beating your wife yet" type of conundrum one expects from one whose reasoning abilities are dictated by a flow chart someone wrote for him. However, it did need to receive a proper evisceration to demonstrate, as you ably did, that it is another bullshit diversion and has about as much substance as a London Fog.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
As I've repeately stated, all you need to do to navigate with a VOR/DME is punch in 4 frequency digits onto an instrument on the dashboard.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Uhm, no. ATC's are news sources, not news followers. You're making things up.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think they only made enough of that for the planes that hit the twin towers and a little of it splashed on 7. That's what made them all get tired and fall down you know.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. That's why he hit the back of the building instead of the front So instead of the EASIEST approach, and most EFFECTIVE approach in terms of what a suicide pilot would perform in order to cause as much damage and fatalities as possible, he picked a DIFFICULT manuever to line up with a LOW VALUE target which would be typically IMPOSSIBLE to hit at that speed due to ground effect, yet he managed to overcome that and FLY INTO THAT 71 foot tall target, because he was an "EXTREMELY POOR PILOT"? No, the evidence is such that WHOEVER flew that aircraft certainly DID know what they were doing, and it ALSO points to the fact that person couldn't have been Hani Hanjour. and why the plane was wobbling as it came in to crash, and Post a link to that allegation. Whether it "wobbled" or not, it had accomplished precision manuevers then flew at over 400 mph at tree top level, then descended to 20 feet off the ground without touching the lawn at 530 mph, FLYING into a target only 71 feet tall. It couldn't have been "wobbling" on it's final approach BTW, otherwise its wings would have gouged the lawn and broken up there, causing the aircraft to spin, much like you are doing here on this thread.
You're making things up. So you're saying they never watch TV News, nor read the paper? Are you retarded?
What are you qualifications in terms of navigating a 757?
That's why he hit the back of the building instead of the front, and why the plane was wobbling as it came in to crash, at 20 feet off the ground and 530 mph, after making a hairline drop from treetop height which the plane traveled at for more than a mile. You are a hoot. You've altenately maintained he was a highly skilled pilot because he somehow managed to obtain the lowest level of Commercial Pilot License and then when the testimony and records show that to be false i.e., that he, as one instructor put it, "he could not fly at all" you suddenly flip flop and now, just for the moment, agree that he really was a really bad pilot - but still capable of flying a 757 when he had NEVER EVER been behind the stick of ANY Jet Aircraft at ANY TIME, in ANY place, had never flown anything larger than a 4 seat, twin engine propeller driven, Piper Apache, and was described by ALL of his flight instructors as a poor student and even worse pilot without exception. Regardless of how many different ways your talking points are shown to be false you come back with the exact same dishonest and disproven talking points as though by repeating the same failed talking points if you reword them one more time they will suddenly become true. You are definitely persistent - but then so is a mule pulling a plow. Do you get paid by the word, the post, or are you hourly or on salary? Ref: Al-Qaeda's Top Gun "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
He had a plan he was not able to follow. His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top. When events get away from him, he had to improvise in an extremely stressful situation. Just because he didn't come up with a 20/20 perfect plan in hindsight to you does not mean anything.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL! And here we go around the Fruit Loop again as Bloviator reprises his greatest, failed, talking points. The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
All cockpit displays and controls are laid out basically the same. Some have a few more instrument indicators and controls than others, that's it. All VOR's work the same as well. There is nothing special about a 757 cockpit and instrument layout. If you want to claim there is, put your evidence side by side with the conventional instrment layout as you deem it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top. So instead of PLANNING the easiest and most effective approach, he PLANNED to use the most difficult and INEFFECTIVE way he could find, because he liked a challenge? Uh huh.
What are your qualifications with a 757? As far as "all cockpits are laid out basically the same", that's a lie. A single engine craft has a tiny fraction of the controls a commericial airliner would have, or from what a private jet would have. He had never flown ANY jet in his life.
So instead of PLANNING the easiest and most effective approach, he PLANNED to use the most difficult and INEFFECTIVE way he could find, because he liked a challenge? Uh huh. The most damage causing approach is horizontal. A vertical approach would waste most of its energy digging a great big hole in the ground. Try thinking for a few moments before posting reflex denials.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wrong. Name the differences instead of waving your arms. Then say where they are located.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow. He can't decide whether he wants to build him up, or tear him down. The spin is making my head dizzy...
If you're talking about a rock or a missile, perhaps. A LARGE JUMBO JET on the other hand would cause MUCH more damage from the TOP of the building, hitting its ROOF, as its wings would blow apart and spread tens of thousands of gallons of JET FUEL which would engulf a large area of the structure in flames and explode.
He had a plan he was not able to follow. His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top. When events get away from him, he had to improvise in an extremely stressful situation. Just because he didn't come up with a 20/20 perfect plan in hindsight to you does not mean anything. So, let me, ha, ha, ha, see if I get this right. Because he was able to miss the easy target this incompetent suddenly becomes a, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, Jet Ace able to fly a Jumbo Jet at tree top height at 400+ mph and then with micrometer like touches to the controls wobble to 20 feet off the ground, leaving 2.5 feet between the engine cowlings and the ground, simultaneously accelerating to 530 mph and run a Jet Aircraft, while he had NEVER in his entire life flown anything larger than a 4 seater, propeller driven Piper Apache, into a 71 foot high wall which was only 26.5 feet higher than the plane. You actually want living sentient beings to believe this? C'mon admit it - you're smokin' another "fattie". You really should book the Poconoes. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. You just can't make this shit up.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Name the differences instead of waving your arms. Then say where they are located I don't claim to be a 757 pilot, where you are acting as if YOU are. Explain your qualifications to say ANYTHING about the cockpit of a 757, short of public information which is easily found on Google.
The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow. He can't decide whether he wants to build him up, or tear him down. The spin is making my head dizzy... The boy's just plain confuuuuuuuused - one side is speaking one thing the other side the other. It's like dealing with "Two Face". T'ain't playin' with a full load. Whar's his senseahumor.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
It is a documented fact that the 757's wings clipped light standards and also partially but not completely knockeded the tops of construction equipment on the lawns. So your self-serving claims of either he had to bury the wings in the ground, or else fly perfectly straight and level, is a crock, as are all the rest of your Half Truths. He did what he needed to do, just barely, and in the wrong location. Deal with it. 17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable 19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance. So what government and media sources are acceptable to you as evidence, Oink? I'm seeing a near perfect adherence to the disinfo tactics you pretend everybody else except you engages in.
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#668. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#665)
And the footnote to your “Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” quote says
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#669. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG, all (#666)
Are you neglecting the reports from experienced pilots and aviation experts?
#670. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#668)
From CNN.com - Hijackers 'knew what they were doing'
#671. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG (#669)
The talking points manual clearly proscribes paying any attention to any data, no matter how well documented, which is contrary to the "Official Spin©".
#672. To: farmfriend, AGBloviator, FormerLurker, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG (#671)
#673. To: Original_Intent (#670)
The emphasis on the overstated quantity and "explosiveness" of the fuel - which we now know, and NIST was forced to admit, was all burned up in the first ten minutes after impact - much of it outside the towers.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#674. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#673)
It also makes WINGS PASS THROUGH WINDOWS, as can be seen by the fact that the windows in the area of impact are NOT BROKEN. The area of impact would have extended to the left of the blue line in the image below.
#675. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#666)
A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8
CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes.
And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10
Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#676. To: Oink, buckeroo, turtle (#672)
The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#677. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#675)
Flight 77's turn was 1/2 G.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#678. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, IRTorqued, Dakmar, abraxas, all (#673)
Speaking of the jet fuel, and it's supernatural abilities to bring down two 110 story skyscrapers on the morning of 9/11, where's the huge fire and fire damage on the Pentagon wall where the left wing of the 757 was alleged to have struck?
#679. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#677)
the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#680. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#676)
Post #571: Never Answered
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#681. To: AGAviator, ALL (#679)
The tighter turn, the more G's the pilot pulls.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#682. To: AGAviator (#675)
Why did he just so happen to mention a 757? How did he know it was a 757 and not a PA-135?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#683. To: wudidiz (#674)
Isn't this the part where he says the wings "grinded" into nothing?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#684. To: Original_Intent (#632)
The problem they run into is that they are almost bright
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#685. To: wudidiz (#635)
We were thinking the same thing.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#686. To: FormerLurker (#681)
The quote was from experts, live with it.
Hanjour NEVER FLEW A JET AIRCRAFT before, and was an EXTREMELY POOR STUDENT in flight school
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#687. To: FormerLurker (#680)
#688. To: FormerLurker (#680)
Let's see, say IF by some act of whatever god he prayed to, he was able to navigate a 757 from Ohio to Washington, DC, a task he would have been unable to do since he had flunked out of simulator training and was a poor student who frequently skipped class.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#689. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#682)
He was interviewed AFTER the fact genius, not BEFORE. News reports identified the aircraft as Flight 77, a Boeing 757
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#690. To: Original_Intent (#678)
My Gawd! You're right! The Pentagon should have collapsed neatly into its own footprint at nearly freefall velocity, but it didn't. Hmmmmmmmmmm? Bad batch of Magickal Jet Fuel™?
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#691. To: AGAviator (#686)
(Edited)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#692. To: AGAviator (#689)
ATC's are news sources, not news followers.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#693. To: AGAviator (#688)
As I've repeately stated, all you need to do to navigate with a VOR/DME is punch in 4 frequency digits onto an instrument on the dashboard.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#694. To: AGAviator (#686)
Hanjour NEVER FLEW A JET AIRCRAFT before, and was an EXTREMELY POOR STUDENT in flight school
...The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12 ...
...Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17
#695. To: FormerLurker (#691)
So instead of the EASIEST approach, and most EFFECTIVE approach in terms of What a suicide pilot would perform in order to cause as much damage and fatalities as possible, he picked a DIFFICULT manuever to line up with a LOW VALUE target with what would be typically IMPOSSIBLE to hit at that speed due to ground effect, yet he managed to overcome that and FLY INTO THAT 71 foot tall target, because he was an "EXTREMELY POOR PILOT"?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#696. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#691)
It couldn't have been "wobbling" on it's final approach BTW, otherwise its wings would have gouged the lawn and broken up there, causing the aircraft to spin, much like you are doing here on this thread.
#697. To: FormerLurker (#693)
(Edited)
What are you qualifications in terms of navigating a 757?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#698. To: AGAviator (#695)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#699. To: AGAviator (#697)
All cockpits are laid out basically the same.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#700. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#698)
His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#701. To: FormerLurker (#699)
As far as "all cockpits are laid out basically the same", that's a lie. A single engine craft has a tiny fraction of the controls a commericial airliner would have, or from what a private jet would have.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#702. To: Original_Intent (#696)
And here we go around the Fruit Loop again as Bloviator reprises his greatest, failed, talking points.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#703. To: AGAviator, ALL (#700)
(Edited)
The most damage causing approach is horizontal. A vertical approach would waste most of its energy digging a great big hole in the ground.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#704. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#695)
So instead of the EASIEST approach, and most EFFECTIVE approach in terms of What a suicide pilot would perform in order to cause as much damage and fatalities as possible, he picked a DIFFICULT manuever to line up with a LOW VALUE target with what would be typically IMPOSSIBLE to hit at that speed due to ground effect, yet he managed to overcome that and FLY INTO THAT 71 foot tall target, because he was an "EXTREMELY POOR PILOT"?
#705. To: AGAviator (#701)
Wrong.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#706. To: FormerLurker (#702)
And here we go around the Fruit Loop again as Bloviator reprises his greatest, failed, talking points.
#707. To: Former Lurker, Oink, buckeroo (#696)
It couldn't have been "wobbling" on it's final approach BTW, otherwise its wings would have gouged the lawn and broken up there, causing the aircraft to spin, much like you are doing here on this thread
The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
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