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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source: Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 16932
Comments: 989

They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government.

By Michael Powell

The Washington Post

NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours.

He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen.

It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora.

He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered.

"To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives."

Such as?

"There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives."

If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

36 percent suspicious

A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon.

Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act."

Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities.

Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down."

But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers.

Motley crew

The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher.

Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ...

Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda.

"Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model."

The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois.

Professor suspended

The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite.

Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday.

The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out."

Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be.

Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss.

"Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts.

They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd.

"Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him."

Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting.

Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded:

"It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed."

The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute.

No patience

Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials.

But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists.

"They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard.

"I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again."

In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery.

"It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams."

The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... "

Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.

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#797. To: farmfriend (#792)

You're dissembling again Harcourt Fenton Mudd

LOL, ok I admit it, I'm a star trek fan.

If I recall correctly the original episode where Harry appeared was "The Trouble With Tribbles" which I believe was written by a real Science Fiction writer by the name of James Blish.

I am a Star Trek fan but fall short of being a "Trekkie".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   21:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#798. To: wudidiz, 9-11 (#720)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-27   21:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#799. To: wudidiz, *9-11* (#720)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-27   21:06:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#800. To: Eric Stratton (#798)

Oh look...


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   21:06:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#801. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, wudidiz, all (#796)

All the instructors who have made public statements said he COULD NOT FLY. So that must mean that someone, somewhere sold him a ticket.

No, it means that after 1999, he lost interest in being a regular pilot because he was not able to get a regular job with Saudi Airlines, and only was interested in suicide piloting from his increasing involvement with jihadi movements.

So he allowed his non-suicide hijacker skills to get neglected because he no longer cared about aircraft and passenger safety.

LOL!

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wall.

Pathetic.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   21:06:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#802. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#784)

Wouldn't surprise me if he already had a number of links and a prepared essay in response available immediately.

After 8 plus years, where are yours?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   21:07:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#803. To: Original_Intent (#797)

I am a Star Trek fan but fall short of being a "Trekkie".

Oh Amen to that!


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-27   21:07:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#804. To: AGAviator, all (#794)

Nah, I'm just funnin' the boy.

It's a joke son.

I say, I say it's a joke boy.

Whar's yer senseahumor boy?

(Boy's wound just a little bit too tight.)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   21:10:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#805. To: AGAviator (#796)

So he allowed his non-suicide hijacker skills to get neglected because he no longer cared about aircraft and passenger safety.

He never COULD fly safely, as I already posted to you in the way of news reports and quotes from his flight instructors.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   21:21:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#806. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#793) (Edited)

I already told the goofus to contact the manufacturer to do his own research. That is where he can find his proof or disproof. I already know the answer.

I already know that you need to do more than punch 4 numbers into the frequency control of the VORTAC receiver, you need to know what to DO with the information it returns. It doesn't fly or navigate the plane for you, unlike the 757's flight management system which you "forgot" existed on board commericial airliners, but certainly DOESN'T exist on Cessna 172's.

Additionally, you neglected the fact that even IF Hanjour knew how to triangulate his position and plot a course, he didn't, since the autopilot was engaged the entire time, except for a course correction midway between Ohio and Washington, where he (or the ACTUAL pilot) realized he was slightly off course somehow, and corrected the problem, then reengaged auto pilot till near Washington DC.

To change the course with autopilot engaged, or for the autopilot to fly the plane to the desired destination, the correct sequence of commands needed to be issued to the flight management computer, which Hanjour had never seen before in his life.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   21:29:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#807. To: AGAviator (#796)

James Deffenbach, quoted in my post: All the instructors who have made public statements said he COULD NOT FLY. So that must mean that someone, somewhere sold him a ticket.

AGAviator: No, it means that after 1999, he lost interest in being a regular pilot because he was not able to get a regular job with Saudi Airlines, and only was interested in suicide piloting from his increasing involvement with jihadi movements.

So he allowed his non-suicide hijacker skills to get neglected because he no longer cared about aircraft and passenger safety

The statement you quoted was made by James but I do agree with it. Tell me, "Mr. Aviator", on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being most difficult, how hard would it be for an incompetent and suicidal hijacker to control a huge plane he had about zero experience maneuvering so, mere inches above the ground as if it was a rocket-propelled hovercraft, through dense air and high g-forces at such a speed, when he could have nosedived into the roof quicker, easier and most likely with a much higher casualty count if the objective and motivation was to be a martyr and not an amatuer stunt pilot?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-27   21:31:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#808. To: AGAviator (#802)

Wouldn't surprise me if he already had a number of links and a prepared essay in response available immediately.

After 8 plus years, where are yours?

Where are my what?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   21:41:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#809. To: Original_Intent (#765)

                       

Translated Output: I have no clue and am completely unable to support my speculations, and they are speculations, I just heard of VORTAC in my briefing book of talking points but I have no idea how the cockpit of a 757 is laid out, how one inputs data (or where) it just sounded like a nice technical term to use to confuse issues.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   21:50:08 ET  (13 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#810. To: Original_Intent (#767)

Truly it has done some awful things to his once mediocre mind.

We must treat him kindly as people afflicted with Sterno© Addiction can be flammable.

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   21:53:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#811. To: FormerLurker (#775)

Looks like buck is engaging in his scatological fantasies again...

I guess that is what he does his finger painting with there in The Home.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   21:56:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#812. To: GreyLmist (#789)

Thank you, James.

You're welcome and I thank you. Another excellent post.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:00:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#813. To: James Deffenbach (#811)

Looks like buck is engaging in his scatological fantasies again...

I guess that is what he does his finger painting with there in The Home.

I hope it is a Happy Home. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:01:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#814. To: James Deffenbach (#809)

What's the story with the groundhog?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:02:18 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#815. To: James Deffenbach (#810)

Truly it has done some awful things to his once mediocre mind.

We must treat him kindly as people afflicted with Sterno© Addiction can be flammable.

LOL!

I was afraid that just might burn him up.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:02:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#816. To: James Deffenbach (#809)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:04:27 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#817. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach (#815)

I was afraid that just might burn him up.

Sterno addicts should stay away from 9/11 flame-athons.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:04:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#818. To: Original_Intent (#801)

LOL!

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wall.

Pathetic.

LOL, aggravator can read the mind of Hanjour/Hanjoor now. This is getting better all the time! I wonder what his next amazing trick will be.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:05:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#819. To: James Deffenbach (#818)

LOL!

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wall.

Pathetic.

LOL, aggravator can read the mind of Hanjour/Hanjoor now. This is getting better all the time! I wonder what his next amazing trick will be.

I think he was going channel Mohammed Atta.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:07:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#820. To: wudidiz (#817)

I was afraid that just might burn him up.

Sterno addicts should stay away from 9/11 flame-athons.

Or as Chrissie Hynde said: "Bad Boys get spanked..."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:10:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#821. To: Original_Intent (#813)

I hope it is a Happy Home. ;-)

Oh, to be sure, life is beautiful all around where buckster and the aggravator reside. The staff even allows them to play on the computers.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:11:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#822. To: wudidiz (#814)

What's the story with the groundhog?

I am not sure but think he's funny. I like him.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:12:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#823. To: Original_Intent (#819)

I think he was going channel Mohammed Atta.

Maybe he will contact Osama bin Forgotten.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:14:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#824. To: GreyLmist (#789) (Edited)

This just goes to show that eyewitnesses are not always right on what they hear or what they see. There was a video taped by a documentary film group that happened to be filming at the time the first plane hit the North Tower and captured it's impact with the North Tower.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-27   22:17:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#825. To: James Deffenbach (#822)

I am not sure but think he's funny. I like him.

He has a very serious expression.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:21:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#826. To: James Deffenbach (#822)

What's the longest you figure you ever watched him for?

lol


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:42:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#827. To: All (#826)

This thread's not over.

; )


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:43:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#828. To: James Deffenbach (#821)

I hope it is a Happy Home. ;-)

Oh, to be sure, life is beautiful all around where buckster and the aggravator reside. The staff even allows them to play on the computers.

Does it have "flowers and trees and pretty birds"?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:44:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#829. To: wudidiz (#826)

What's the longest you figure you ever watched him for?

Just to make sure he isn't going anywhere you mean? Oh, I don't know, maybe ten minutes or ten seconds. I get those confused. ahaha.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:44:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#830. To: Original_Intent (#828)

Yes, and basket weavers.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:46:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#831. To: James Deffenbach (#830)

Setting in quiet contemplation? ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:51:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#832. To: James Deffenbach (#829)

It's more fun than watching building seven drop over and over.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:56:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#833. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#769)

B) I am ALSO stating that you can't just change direction and plot course with the VORTAC signal, that only gives you a bearing, you need to know how to use navigational maps (which are COMPUTERIZED on a 757 by the way) in order to PLOT a bearing to your desination, and to do that you need to determine your current position.

Wrong.

(1) You can buy a current chart, which you are required to have, which shows all the VORTACs, their locations and frequencies.

(2) The Course Indicator shows the radial to the VORTAC.

(3) The DME on the VORTAC, combined with the radial, shows EXACLY where you are without the need for any other bearing.

(4) Since you're quoting a source which states the FMS was turned off while a course change was made, then turned on again, it's clear that the person using the FMS knew how to use it, knew how to make changes to it, and knew when and why any changes would be needed. So the claim that Hanjour couldn't use the FMS is by itself disproven.

(5) The fact that it is possible Hanjour did use the FMS does not alter the fact that he did not need to use the FMS to navigate. Basic trigonometry says if you have both a radial and a distance, you can precisely identify location. You only need a 2nd radial if the first radial does not have distance.

(6) "It is doubtful" is speculation not fact.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   23:07:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#834. To: OInk. buckeroo (#801)

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wa

Perfect Soldiers Hijackers they Were

This will be difficult for you to process, but there actually are investigative journalists and authors who are able to gather evidence, and research and write accurately ahout all kinds of different subjects.

Of course, this poses a prohlem for you, because your pronouncements are no longer a claim worthy of any serious consideration.

So naturally, you go on to Disinformation Rule #19 - your favorite - and deny everything that anybody else researches and publishes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   23:17:06 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#835. To: GreyLmist (#807)

Tell me, "Mr. Aviator", on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being most difficult, how hard would it be for an incompetent and suicidal hijacker to control a huge plane he had about zero experience maneuvering so, mere inches above the ground as if it was a rocket-propelled hovercraft, through dense air and high g-forces at such a speed, when he could have nosedived into the roof quicker, easier and most likely with a much higher casualty count if the objective and motivation was to be a martyr and not an amatuer stunt pilot?

Ground effect combined with 400+ mph velocity makes a crash into the earth difficult unless the plane is deliberately pointed towards the ground.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   23:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#836. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#834)

This will be difficult for you to process, but there actually are investigative journalists and authors who are able to gather evidence, and research and write accurately ahout all kinds of different subjects.

Yes, and you ignore that research and evidence, or spin it into the opposite of what it conveys.

So how did Hanjour figure out how to work the Boeing 757 flight management computer?

Why are there no external fires on the outside of the Pentagon wall immediately after impact?

Why are those men in suits getting off the bus carrying huge full bags with them, walking towards the Pentagon, which according to initial reports had NO airplane debris indicating an airliner just flew into it?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   23:37:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#837. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#835) (Edited)

Ground effect combined with 400+ mph velocity makes a crash into the earth difficult unless the plane is deliberately pointed towards the ground.

Ground effect occurs when flying less than 60 feet at 400+ mph, and that is what the aircraft did for at least a mile on its way to the Pentagon, dipping down to 20 feet the last split second in order to hit a 71 foot tall target.

Diving into it from a higher altitude would NOT have resulted in any sort of "extra lift" due to ground effect, since the air pressure under the wings would not be enough to cause it to slow down or climb at such a steep angle, and just milliseconds from impact.

Not only that, but the horizontal speed would have been very low, perhaps somewhere around 50 mph, thus between the angle of attack and the very low ground speed, there would be NO ground effect.

Dipping down to 20 feet from 60 feet in the last few milliseconds WOULD HAVE BEEN CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE HOWEVER, as the air pressure under the wings would have risen significantly.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   23:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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