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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source: Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 19581
Comments: 989

They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government.

By Michael Powell

The Washington Post

NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours.

He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen.

It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora.

He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered.

"To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives."

Such as?

"There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives."

If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

36 percent suspicious

A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon.

Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act."

Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities.

Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down."

But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers.

Motley crew

The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher.

Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ...

Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda.

"Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model."

The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois.

Professor suspended

The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite.

Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday.

The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out."

Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be.

Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss.

"Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts.

They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd.

"Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him."

Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting.

Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded:

"It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed."

The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute.

No patience

Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials.

But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists.

"They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard.

"I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again."

In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery.

"It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams."

The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... "

Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.

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#1. To: Dakmar (#0)

who was the head of the WAR COLLEGE that said Israel was behind 911?

i think it is a utube

Itistoolate  posted on  2010-07-19   22:31:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Dakmar (#0)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-19   23:54:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Itistoolate (#1)

who was the head of the WAR COLLEGE that said Israel was behind 911?

i think it is a utube

I looked into that a week or so ago. Other than his assesment of alledged opinion at the war college, he gave no specifics. I personnaly believe that the Izzies had a hand in it and Abramoff, a don in the Russian (Jewish) mafia, knows something. He came to own some gambling boats in Florida under strange circumstances---the former owner was found slumped over the steering wheel in his car with a hole behind his ear. Mohammed Atta was spotted on one of his boats shortly before 911. The same Abramoff, who, with the aid of some congress critters, was bilking Indian casinos and sending the profits to the settler movement in Israel. This is the kind of Jew that our senators chum around with. Wasn't it a New Jersey Governor who found himself with an Israeli boy friend? Had him on the payroll and put him in charge of the states security.Like the Israeli securiy firm at the airports on 911, the dancing Israelis, Odigo---the list goes on......

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2010-07-20   0:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: All (#3)

The art students

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2010-07-20   0:03:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Eric Stratton, Dakmar (#2)

Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank

Berlet worked/works for the SPLC, for years. They have "training" contracts issued by the Dept. of Justice. They are automatically trotted out by the media to explain all the government-sponsored terror attacks.

ratcat  posted on  2010-07-20   1:08:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Dakmar (#0)

the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

To be more precise, the Israeli duals in the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept 11 to spark an invasion of of Afghanistan and Iraq.

As a patriotic American Bush would not start wars against countries which posed no threat to Americans, especially wars that cannot be credibly explained. Likely, Bush took the initiative when Organized Jewry "guaranteed" him not only continuation in office but re-election if he launched wars against Israel's enemies.

Israel had to have Saddam taken out to stop his funding of one-way human bombers who were trying to get lands stolen by Jewish terrorists to form their illegal state.

Tatarewicz  posted on  2010-07-20   5:10:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: ratcat (#5)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-20   7:08:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Rube Goldberg (#3)

Itistoolate  posted on  2010-07-20   7:47:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Itistoolate (#8)

Where's the beef?

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2010-07-20   10:53:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Dakmar (#0) (Edited)

In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery.

Rubbery "pancakes" -- almost funny. Isn't it amazing how welders can run a torch full blast in direct contact with a steel beam for hours at a time without turning them rubbery or even having to spray them down with water?

"It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams."

Fire Weakens Steel but not Woman Waving in WTC North Tower
http://www.youtube.com/watch? v=3151MqXu52s

views 175,211

ebasebiz | February 01, 2008

Edna Cintron stood waving for rescue in the North Tower plane shaped hole for at least 20 minutes.

Isn't it logical Edna should have roasted if there was that much heat to weaken steel?

Her picture is in the NIST reports, waving to us that their fairy-tale of thousand-degree heat from jet fuel that allegedly weakened the WTC steel to cause collapse is a lie.

_______

The Fraud Of 911
A Firefighter Looks At Premeditated Murder At WTC

By Douglas Herman 3-16-6

Even more damaging, to the official government version, a team of brave New York firemen ascended to the impacted floors of the World Trade tower. Their exact words when seeing the fire were: "We should be able to knock it down with two lines." ( The Memory Hole - Excerpts From Firefighters' WTC Tape on 9/11)

Two hoses. A half dozen men altogether, to put out the fire.

But, imagine, with the fires in the World Trade Towers out, a REAL investigation would have occurred. There would have been no need to attack Iraq. The terrorists would have been exposed much closer to home.

Instead the radios used by the [my note: unroasted] firefighters on the 70th floor were likely monitored, by the perpetrators, and out of fear of being found out, the towers were hastily brought down. [my note: collapse=bigger insurance payoff for Silverstein]

Despite all physical impossibility, seven stout steel skyscrapers were destroyed that day. Three of the skyscrapers allegedly collapsed due to a firestorm that quickly burnt itself out and then smoldered. Indeed, almost miraculously, The Woman At The Edge Of The Abyss stood on steel that MIT professors said should have been red hot. How then could the tower have collapsed if the steel had cooled?

Recently I completed a firefighter course of classroom and field tests. A fire instructor mentioned the word Conduction. Simply, conduction is a scientific law that some metals conduct heat better than others. An iron rod or steel beam or girder will conduct heat throughout its entire length before melting. Like your barbecue grill will maintain its integrity although subject to repeated intense heat. [end excerpt]

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   15:38:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: GreyLmist (#10)

Rubbery "pancakes" -- almost funny

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought so. I thought the absence of elasticity was the problem, what with structural beams sheared through in straight lines.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-21   19:56:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Dakmar (#11)

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought so. I thought the absence of elasticity was the problem, what with structural beams sheared through in straight lines.

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought so too. :) When they push the rubbery, elastic line, they seem oblivious to the snap-back effect that air swirling around could have on the metal.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   20:43:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Dakmar (#11)

Me: Isn't it amazing how welders can run a torch full blast in direct contact with a steel beam for hours at a time without turning them rubbery or even having to spray them down with water?

Here's a blow torch demonstration I think is interesting:

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-21   21:31:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Dakmar (#0)

Are you in teenage-wasteland?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-21   21:35:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: buckeroo (#14)

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-24   2:40:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#14) (Edited)

P.S. Your thread was closed before I posted a response to this:

#1190. To: GreyLmist (#1176)

The title of this topic is: 9/11 demolition theory challenged. The info accesible through Post #982 refutes claims like Mark Loizeaux's

That isn't the author of the article of this thread.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo posted on 2010-07-23 21:14:55 ET [Locked] Trace Private Reply

Reply: I know Loizeaux wasn't the author of the article. He was part of AGA's list (#9) that you quoted in a post to him (#1137 You To: AGAviator #1096) . The title of the thread was mentioned in my post to you to bring the topic back to the subject of CD and Loizeaux's statement about it at #9 in AGA's list, the premise of which was already debunked with an alert to that fact at Post #982 and again at Post #1109.

Just wanted to clarify that for you.

______________________

Replying to AGAviator @ Post #857 of the 9/11 demolition theory challenged:

What satelite phones with noise filters? I don't understand your next question about sotto voce. There were places in the alleged phone call recordings without anyone speaking and no engine-noise heard. And the Right Here link you posted to me is the very same NTSB pdf footnote link I posted to you from your Wikipedia page reference for Flight 77 that had nothing in it at all about 40 hours and 11 flights prior to 9/11 on the FDR.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-24   5:00:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: GreyLmist, buckeroo (#16) (Edited)

There were places in the alleged phone call recordings without anyone speaking and no engine-noise heard

Here's a Flight 11 recorded call including Betty Ong, going on for 8 minutes.

I hear engine noise in the background. How about you?

As far as nit picking over minutiae, the issues have always been whether (A) Any actual tangible forensic evidence contradicting CT's exists, and (B) Whether verifiable evidence supporting CT's exists, not arm waving generalizations and selective editings of evidence used elsewhere.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   7:31:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: GreyLmist (#15)

That was phunney.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   14:27:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: GreyLmist, christine (#16)

P.S. Your thread was closed before I posted a response to this

It brings to tears to my eyes since several REAL attempts to persuade and convince a pile of rabble rousers, HELL bent on pushing a conspiracy agenda killed the thread. That thread could have gone stellar here at 4um bringing the truth about some of the silly conspiracy plots.

I shall renew the effort, too.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   14:41:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: buckeroo (#19) (Edited)

It brings to tears to my eyes since several REAL attempts to persuade and convince a pile of rabble rousers, HELL bent on pushing a conspiracy agenda killed the thread

The tactics used certainly confirm the premise of my sig line. 911 whodunits are quite useless diversions of energy from more productive pursuits. Which is why there is no serious attempt to suppress them.

If you look at the thread from its beginning, once evidence started to pour in rebutting the 8 year old axioms of the CT's, the name calling, accusations of government agency, gaysex banter, and off topic remarks started coming in.

The MO is clear: Trash anything you can't prevail in. And when you get your remarks repaid in kind, start complaining about the replies, but not what you said to provoke them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   14:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: AGAviator (#20)

The tactics used certainly confirm the premise of my sig line. 911 whodunits are quite useless diversions of energy from more productive pursuits. Which is why there is no serious attempt to suppress them.

Time after time, I saw where you were continuously ridiculed for lack of knowledge and capability to understand some "suspicion" based upon anyone but an expert about the ideas presented.

Man, do you have patience with these folks! I somewhat enjoy the experience .. as it allows me to see how some folks see the world around themselves as they have wrapped upped into their own shells of incredible capability unwilling to confront their own personal failures in life. They couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag as they hey no skills other than believing in a myth ... kinda like the Mother Goose Nursery Rhymes... clamming up to just spew their own orgasmic attempt at a wild, doing nothing other than proving they have NO FACTS, NO DATA and NO TRUTH .... other than peer supported conspiracy theories.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   15:13:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: AGAviator (#20)

If you look at the thread from its beginning, once evidence started to pour in rebutting the 8 year old axioms of the CT's, the name calling, accusations of government agency, gaysex banter, and off topic remarks started coming in. Ohm

Oh man .. you stood up to piles of disinformation, character assassination and lies and mere conjecture based on innuendo. You are an excellent poster, AG.

Glad you decided to come back to 4um! Bringing evidence and hard science is no easy issue with some of these folks.... they have their minds made up based upon their own failures magnifying the rest of the world.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   15:26:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: buckeroo (#22)

You guys oughta get a room.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-24   15:28:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: randge (#23)

You guys oughta get a room.

I already have a view of the issues. Why should I duck my head in the sand akin to some around 4um regarding these conspiracy theories?

Proof or, at least, substantial evidence deserves some scrutiny doesn't it? But as you know for yourself... it is much easier to hide behind a "conspiracy" as opposed to producing FACTS. And there are no FACTS, no evidence or even a witness that can support the ideas of conspiracy zealots.

If there were, you would have read about it by now.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   16:09:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: GreyLmist (#16)

Just wanted to clarify that [Loizeaux].

Thanks. But as AG has pointed out in the past the Loizeaux family (CDI) take weeks and months to prepare buildings for implosion. They even use minor demolition charges to prove out the CD concepts of the plans prior to actual demolition.

If you review all the pictures and videos of the WTC, there was no "implosion"; it was the opposite ... as there appears to be explosions as the glass and outer structures fall away from the top down... not the bottom up.

So let me know why you want to clarify anything, here. To me, the WTC twin tower buildings toppled because of stress weakening at the 81st and 95th floors. Those two floors were where the airplane crashes occurred.... not because of demolitions.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   16:18:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: randge, buckeroo (#23) (Edited)

To: buckeroo

You guys oughta get a room

Another standard off-topic fagbait circlejerk Half Truther reply when incapable of commenting on issues.

Then you snivel and cry when replied to in like coin to exchanges you yourselves start.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   16:39:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: AGAviator (#26)

Hit a nerve little man??

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-24   17:20:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: randge, christine (#27)

To: AGAviator

Hit a nerve little man??

Not at all.

Just noting for the record who starts the stink bombs to disrupt discussions they can't prevail with facts and reason.

For myself, I don't care whether the thread takes the high road or the low road. I'll kick your pansy a$$ in either.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:33:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: buckeroo, GreyLmist (#19)

P.S. Your thread was closed before I posted a response to this

It brings to tears to my eyes

Yes buckie, you cried like a little girl when nobody wanted to buy the BS you were selling, and instead, people posted facts and evidence which tore your little fairie tale to shreads.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:34:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#29)

people posted facts and evidence

Which as usual, you cannot explicitly cite, but only assert exists some place, some where.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:41:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, abraxas, critter, all (#30)

people posted facts and evidence

Which as usual, you cannot explicitly cite, but only assert exists some place, some where.

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   17:44:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: FormerLurker (#29)

Yes buckie, you cried like a little girl when nobody wanted to buy the BS you were selling, and instead, people posted facts and evidence which tore your little fairie tale to shreads.

Oh, did the widdle buckywoo cwy? Maybe he should go running home to his mama and tell her the big kids on the internet are beating the crap out of him for lying.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   17:47:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: AGAviator (#28)

Relax, Chief. Every time I see you on here, you're about to have a stroke.

Do something simple for us and put an Arab on a plane on 9-11. Haven't seen anyone do that yet.

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-24   17:50:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: AGAviator (#30)

Which as usual, you cannot explicitly cite, but only assert exists some place, some where.

I posted evidence that Hanjour was incapable of piloting Flight 77, amongst other facts which indicate the official 9/11 legend is full of impossible events and tales.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:51:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: AGAviator (#30)

I don't understand FL, anymore. I have regarded his posts in the past as good thinking and capability for someone that really can think with their own wits. He has gone wrong... not capable of distinguishing fact from fiction. I just don't understand how a once credible poster with excellent ideas has become such an incredible nit-wit.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   17:51:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: James Deffenbach (#32)

Oh, did the widdle buckywoo cwy?

Yes, and she has a very dirty little mouth when she gets upset.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: buckeroo (#35)

Just because you refuse to accept the facts doesn't mean those facts are not facts, it just means you're too caught up in your own beliefs to accept those facts, no matter how much proof and evidence is provided.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:54:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: buckeroo (#35)

And BTW buck, I've NEVER believed the official BS stories concerning 9/11, well, at least as of 9/12/2001 or so...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   17:55:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#31) (Edited)

chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated

You phony $hiteater.

You cannot even abide by the points of discussion you yourself post. Six insults in 14 hours just to buck. That I can quickly observe. There are unquestionably more to me.

#17. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, Nostradumbass, buckeroo, abraxas, wudidiz, all (#14)
... Not a bit surprised that they haven't made any appearance on this one. Guess their handlers don't know what to tell them.
It's a punt. If you recall on the other thread that AGBloviator made a big point about Top Gun Hanjour getting a Commercial Certificate - over and over again as a matter of fact, as did Nostradumbass
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 2:13:09 ET

#18. To: abraxas, FormerLurker, AGAviator, buckaroo, wudidiz (#15)
Guess this one is just too full of facts for AGABLOWviator and his trusty sidekick to discuss.
I do believe he is factophobic. When confronted with facts which he cannot twist and misrepresent his response is to take a powder. Maybe he has a shiny nose?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 2:16:16 ET

#1124. To: buckeroo (#1122)
....
Well, I don't have any more time to play with you now. Why don't you play with yourself?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 15:05:19 ET

#1160. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, James Deffenbach, all (#1157)
Are you REALLY that stupid buck?
Is that a rhetorical question?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 16:34:12 ET

#1162. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, abraxas, AGBloviator, AGAgitator, AGAviator, all (#1159)
a point you and AGBloviator
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 16:49:06 ET

#1163. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, all (#1161)
Uh, buck?
Earth to buck!
Earth to buck!
Do you read me buck?
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 16:55:38 ET

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: randge (#33) (Edited)

Put an Arab on a plane on 9-11.

"[The hijackers] were sitting in 2A and 2B"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   17:57:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Dakmar (#0)

A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries ....

I couldn't have explained the social phenomena better myself.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   17:59:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#39)

Hey OI, it looks like you have a stalker...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   18:05:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: FormerLurker (#42)

Some of the Liars acting up?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   18:07:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#42)

Hey OI, it looks like you have a stalker...

So that's the Half Truther circlejerk term for having to follow the rules you demand everybody else follow...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   18:09:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: AGAviator (#44)

circlejerk term

You know all about those don't you.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-24   18:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: AGAviator (#40)

Well, I'll give you points for starch on that post.

There's not a DAMNED THING about Arabs on that audio.

Let's go one better: Put Hani Hanjour or Mohammed Atta on one of those planes or any of the other "9-11 hijackers."

There is no long form.

randge  posted on  2010-07-24   18:19:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Original_Intent (#31)

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

It is amazing how some posters ( such as yourself) re-play their own plagiarized and scratched recordings while they can not produce FACTS about the issues being discussed. O_I, you have succumbed to an emotional appeal to the insane asylum ... never admitting your own errors while accusing others of the same; you can't learn and don't care to as you regard your own posts as something magnificent.

But where are witnesses with FACTS and direct evidence? No where to be found, even all your own "research" finds this point to be true. So far, all you have ever produced in a post (beyond your plagiarized BS) is: "perhaps", "maybe", "possibly", "probably", "I think" ... and so on and so forth.

You aren't interested in truth... you are interested in smelling BS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   18:27:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: randge, buckeroo (#46) (Edited)

DAMNED THING about Arabs

Seat assignments identify hijackers.

Furthermore throughout its 8 minutes, the tape repeatedly says the aircraft was hijacked with crew members slashed and stabbed.

No one other than Arabs have ever been reported to be hijackers, carrying boxcutters which were foolishly allowed on board at the time.

You lose.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   18:31:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#45)

circlejerk term

You know all about those don't you.

After watching you all in action for a month, I certainly do now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   18:32:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#31)

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

Hey, Mr. "No Moon Landing," here's what's in store for you when you pop off to the wrong person and call him a liar.

ROTFLOL!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   18:36:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: AGAviator (#49)

Back on the "demolition theory thread" and the "cabin door thread" (each achieving posts of 900+) you (AGAviator) ... went up to bat day after day after day.. NEVER vacillating your original opinions, even when some posters taunted you for details that were later produced time after time after time.

Some of these posters just don't care about FACTS; they are enmeshed into their own opinions lifted off some silly conspiracy website as FL did on the demolition thread that are half-truth and half-lies; FL's own post is proof he doesn't read his own posted footnotes.... and as a result can never learn or comprehend what realy happened.

FL would rather consider his rabble-rousers as a method to assure his immediate audience that he has some sort of passion for truth while alluding to hypocrisy about his ownself.... i.e. moving the bar for "truth" about his insistent posts for some 400 posts through the demolition thread about credentials ... to some off-the-wall remarck "well Hanjour's trainers said dis or dat."

This is the problem with America, today and unfortunately FL is symptomatic of it; in fact, FL is nothing more than a charlatan akin to government getting BIGGER while they bury BS behind smoke screens.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   18:45:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#51) (Edited)

Some of these posters just don't care about FACTS; they are enmeshed into their own opinions lifted off some silly conspiracy website as FL did on the demolition thread that are half-truth and half-lies; FL's own post is proof he doesn't read his own posted footnotes

Whenever the facts don't fit their theories, FL and OI simply make up lies.

After being debunked on the licensed pilot matter, their latest whopper is to claim that commercial pilot certificates ("licenses" per the FAA), are simply "learners permits."

Commercial Pilot License

A Commercial Pilot License (CPL) or, in the United States, a Commercial Pilot Certificate, is a qualification that permits the holder to act as the Pilot In Command of a single pilot aircraft, or as co-pilot of a multi-pilot aircraft and be paid for his/her work.
Not a damn thing about a learner permit or aircraft type.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   18:53:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: AGAviator (#52)

a learner permit

They pull that "shit" right out of their own asses.... and slap themselves on the back for an "idea" to counter their own disproven dialogues.....

Go back to the "demolition theory thread" @post#527 FL ... starts taking the thread off topic. And through posts 900 or so, badgers the issue about how Hanjour has no publick records of being a credentialed pilot.

So, when it categorically he was blowing smoke up the thread's respective ass(es) .. it was categorically proven he was WRONG!

And then he lies about it ... and so does O_I ... as their little questions have produced genuine facts to dispel and PROVE their points as silly at best but sidetracking the entire thread from the WTC.

And that is all they (FL and O_I) will ever do.... lie, cheat and swindle even on their own posts.... even after they are PROVEN WRONG.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   19:03:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: GreyLmist, buckeroo (#17)

Do you hear engine noise on the 8-minute tape featuring Betty Ong and the aircraft control centers?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   19:05:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: randge (#46)

There's not a DAMNED THING about Arabs on that audio.

Well said.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   19:17:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: GreyLmist, Dakmar (#10)

Rubbery "pancakes" -- almost funny. Isn't it amazing how welders can run a torch full blast in direct contact with a steel beam for hours at a time without turning them rubbery or even having to spray them down with water?

"Rubbery" refers to elastic methods of stress based on applied forces: with the WTC buildings with that term in mind (which is just a way to view the author's ideas ... ) the HUGE masses above the stress points acted straight downward.

The metal wasn't "rubbery" ... it no longer acted within the designed stress limits of the mass it was supporting. The central core of both the WTC buildings collapsed because both the heat of the fires and the loss of support structure caused the collapse.

BTW, welders normally don't have those added masses as they meld the skeletal structure together as in a new design.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   19:31:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: AGAviator (#50)

He is a coward, liar and thief and I would say it to his face too.

You also are a coward, liar and thief Aga, and I would say it to your face too.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-24   19:31:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: buckeroo (#25)

there appears to be explosions as the glass and outer structures fall away from the top down

That's right! It exploded with great force from the planted explosives going off on each floor. You are starting to get it Buck! There is hope even for shills like you.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-24   19:38:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: RickyJ (#57)

You also are a coward, liar and thief Aga, and I would say it to your face too.

And like him, you'd get knocked 5 feet backwards.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   19:38:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: AGAviator (#59)

haha, I unlike that guy wouldn't let an old con man hit me. I also wouldn't let a stooge like you do it either. I am too fast and would knock your ass out before you were done with your swing.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-24   19:45:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: AGAviator (#59)

Hey retard, you do know that WTC 7 is going to sink your little career don't you?

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-24   19:48:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: RickyJ (#58)

buckeroo: there appears to be explosions as the glass and outer structures fall away from the top down

RickyJ: That's right! It exploded with great force from the planted explosives going off on each floor. You are starting to get it Buck! There is hope even for shills like you.

Rick, there were no explosions other than the compressed hot aire pushing outward as the structure collapsed breaking the weaker outer perimeter giving the illusion of some sort of demolition. Review the photographs and the videos that you find anywhere.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   19:54:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#60)

I am too fast and would knock your ass out before you were done with your swing.

Hahahah, your whole posting history is chock full of false statements and bombast only accepted by a handful of kooks, why stop now?

LOL.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   20:00:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: buckeroo, GreyLmist, christine (#19)

P.S. Your thread was closed before I posted a response to this

It brings to tears to my eyes

lol....laughing at you is bringing a tear to my eye. : )

As for that thread, it had become a big stinking floater that needed to be flushed and there is nothing "stellar" about that.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   20:02:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#61)

WTC 7 is going to sink your little career don't you?

And "unsink" i.e. resurrect yours?

HAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   20:02:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#65)

Lies.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   20:07:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: RickyJ (#61)

Hey retard, you do know that WTC 7 is going to sink your little career don't you?

LOL! Kick his @$$.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   20:07:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: abraxas (#64)

lol....laughing at you is bringing a tear to my eye. : )

That gave me a nice chuckle.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   20:08:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: James Deffenbach, RickyJ, all (#67)

.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   20:08:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: wudidiz (#69) (Edited)

"It's gone, man." And fast too. Looked like a cd to me.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   20:13:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, buckeroo, abraxas, all (#39) (Edited)

You phony $hiteater.

You cannot even abide by the points of discussion you yourself post. Six insults in 14 hours just to buck. That I can quickly observe. There are unquestionably more to me.

And your point?

Are you upset because I spent a little time pinning buckie's ears back. Such petty jealousy.

My point of course, which you took out of context of course, was I simply grew tired the childish antics of you and buckie. As well when I insult someone it is clearly an insult and not an attempt to avoid issues or derail the discussion. It's just that you two with your barbarian table manners earn every drop of vitriol which I drop in your direction. So, I gave you some of your own medicine. You're just jealous because I'm better at than you are, and even worse I use all them thar edumacated wurdz you don't understand. Cry me a river shipmate, cry me a river.

Oh, by the way, I'm sure this eluded you, I didn't use any crass 4 letter vulgarisms of the kind you and buckie seem to be so fond of. Ain't that just the shits?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   20:23:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#69)

2:43 "Exposed to fires for 7 hours and critically weakened, Truss 1 (in the northeast corner) finally failed at 5:20.

2:48 "This vertical collapse progressed all the way to the roof, as evidenced by the collapse of the east penthouse."

2:56 "Unable to handle the redistributed wieight, the two remaining trusses gae way about 8 seconds later, resulting in a complete collapse of the building."

3:39 "The firefighers certainly weren't surprised when the building collapsed just as predicted."

Naturally, the k00ksites do not show the collapse starting with the failure of Truss 1, which gave in about 8 seconds before Trusses 2 and 3.

Trusses 2 and 3 failed simultaneously and allowed for the remaining parts of the building to go down to the ground all at once.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   20:30:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator, FormerLurker, buckeroo, James D (#71)

Oh, by the way, I'm sure this eluded you, I didn't use any crass 4 letter vulgarisms of the kind you and buckie seem to so fond of. Ain't that just the shits?

But, that doesn't play into the "poor little victims" routine so well, OI.

I didn't use any either, but mean ol' Ab made 'em cry anyway.

AGABLOWviator and Buckie need a tissue for their big crocodile tears and sniffles.

Po' lil' victims whining about insults on one hand and throwing them in vulgar tirades with the other.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   20:32:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#42)

Hey OI, it looks like you have a stalker...

I guess that's the risk in allowing fifth graders onto the Internet.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   20:33:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo (#71) (Edited)

And your point?

As already stated, you're a pathological lying windbag who can't abide by the rules you yourself post.

And is now making excuses to try to justify your own hypocritical behavior.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   20:33:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: abraxas, AGBloviator, AGAviator, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Critter, Buckmonster Fullofit, buckeroo, all (#73)

Po' lil' victims whining about insults on one hand and throwing them in vulgar tirades with the other.

Bingo. If they wish to be treated like adults participating in a debate from opposite ends of an issue then it would seem to me that it would behoove them to behave as adults. Now, I know that is not going to happen, but then I'm an optimist.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   20:37:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: All (#72)

.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   20:38:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Original_Intent (#71)

Oh, by the way, I'm sure this eluded you, I didn't use any crass 4 letter vulgarisms of the kind you and buckie seem to be so fond of. Ain't that just the shits?

ROTFL .... you lying sack of cockamamie crap.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   20:39:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: abraxas, Original_Indent, buckeroo (#73)

AGABLOWviator and Buckie need a tissue for their big crocodile tears and sniffles.

Po' lil' victims whining about insults on one hand and throwing them in vulgar tirades with the other.

Nothing of the sort, CJF.

Just noting for the record it's your side which posts rules for discourse, which you then systematically violate every time you feel like it.

Making you hypocriticial liars of the first order.

Like that's any surprise.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   20:45:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: AGAviator (#63)

All of the acoustic measurements AND seismic recordings show no demolitions on 9/11... before or after the respective passenger jet crashes.... you would think everyone running for their lives that day would have busted eardrums from any explosions before the collapse.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   20:45:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#78)

you lying sack of cockamamie crap.

OI is not lying. Why should he? He doesn't need to.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   20:45:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: AGAviator, abraxas, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, IRTorqued, all (#75)

And your point?

As already stated, you're a pathological lying windbag who can't abide by the rules you yourself post.

And is now making excuses to try to justify your own hypocritical behavior.

Not at all my dear microencephalic neanderthal, unlike you when I levy an insult it is not to win the debate, or because I am so ungracious as to emulate the dregs in an ill tempered tantrum because I have been proven wrong on a point (not that, that happens), but because the level of refinement of another, such as yourself, encourages comparisons worthy of the churlish behavior exhibited. Mind you I am not saying you are without some class it is simply that it is all of the lowest order.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   20:47:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: wudidiz (#81)

Yeah, by all means, let's start another 1200+ posting thread about who did 9/11 that no one's cared about since, oh...I dunno...2002.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2010-07-24   20:47:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: All (#80)

.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   20:47:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Samuel Gray (#83)

no one's cared about

Speak for yourself.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   20:48:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Original_Intent (#82)

Mind you I am not saying you are without some class it is simply that it is all of the lowest order.

Are you saying that he has no enemies but is intensely disliked by his friends?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   20:51:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Samuel Gray (#83)

Yeah, by all means, let's start another 1200+ posting thread about who did 9/11 that no one's cared about since, oh...I dunno...2002.

Obviously some of us care about it. But if you don't, why do you post to the threads? No one is forcing you to post to them or read them, are they?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   20:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo (#82) (Edited)

As already stated, you're a pathological lying windbag who can't abide by the rules you yourself post.

And is now making excuses to try to justify your own hypocritical behavior.

Not at all blah blah blah blah

Put your self serving longwinded exceptions in your original point by point postings, instead of post-event attempts to excuse your hypocrisy, fuckwit.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   20:53:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#84)

FDNY Describe Bombs

I don't hear the word "bomb" a single time.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   20:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Original_Intent (#82)

I'm trying to remember when I first realized that AGitprop was working for the dark side...years and years ago I suppose.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   20:55:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: AGAviator (#89) (Edited)

I don't hear the word "bomb" a single time.

I heard boom.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   20:57:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: AGAviator, abraxas, all (#79)

AGABLOWviator and Buckie need a tissue for their big crocodile tears and sniffles.

Po' lil' victims whining about insults on one hand and throwing them in vulgar tirades with the other.

Nothing of the sort, CJF.

Just noting for the record it's your side which posts rules for discourse, which you then systematically violate every time you feel like it.

Making you hypocriticial liars of the first order.

Like that's any surprise.

As usual you distort and twist. Not that you're very good at - it is awfully transparent. I take it subtlety is not your strong point?

In any event if I insult you, assuming you are capable of comprehending the insult, it is because I am insulting you and not as a device to win the debate. In other words I am not engaging in misrepresenting another's position while degrading them, as though anyone of any intelligence cannot see through your tactic, I am insulting them. It is really quite straightforward. If I call you an imbecile or a knave it is because I am naming you that which you are and not for any other purpose. I do hope that was not too sophisticated for you. Please let me know if you need a translation in monosyllables.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   20:57:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Samuel Gray (#83)

Yeah, by all means, let's start another 1200+ posting thread about who did 9/11 that no one's cared about since, oh...I dunno...2002.

The fabled conspiracies keep rattling around without facts or witnesses... I think it is all BS. FormerLurker created a thread about FLT77 BRIEF WHILE BACK about the cabin door proving that Hanjour couldn't have done his dirty deeds. FL was BUSTED.

FL also claimed that Hanjour did not have pilot credentials based on the FAA structure and requirements. FL was busted.

FL has claimed that everyone under the Sun but any terrorists created demolitions of the WTC ... to include all government officials that day. FL has no proof.

This continuing speculation and silly behaviour has gone on too long. It is time to slap the speculators into reasonable sanity with FACTS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   20:57:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Rotara (#90)

I'm trying to remember when I first realized that AGitprop was working for the dark side...years and years ago I suppose.

I have known/known of aggravator since way back in the day when I posted on John Deere's board. Can't tell he has added any additional brain cells to complement the two he had then.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   20:58:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: James Deffenbach (#86)

Mind you I am not saying you are without some class it is simply that it is all of the lowest order.

Are you saying that he has no enemies but is intensely disliked by his friends?

I do believe you have found quite the proper tenor.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   20:58:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Original_Intent (#95)

Thank you kindly.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   21:00:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#92)

I do hope that was not too sophisticated for you.

LOL

Oh Golly...


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   21:00:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Rotara (#90)

I'm trying to remember when I first realized that AGitprop was working for the dark side...years and years ago I suppose.

What has become apparent is that he is either in the military or been in it. That's why I am guessing he works for the CENTCOM disinfo squad.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:01:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Original_Intent (#95)

I do believe you [James Deffenbach] have found quite the proper tenor.

What a pansy assed jerk... "I do believe" .... no facts, no data.... as always... NADA... like all your posts.

Why didn't you just come right out and say the truth concerning your own opinion: "I, Original_Intent have my nose firmly planted in your South end."

That way, we know where you are planted.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:09:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, FormerLurker, abraxas, IRTorqued, Rotara, all (#97)

I do hope that was not too sophisticated for you.

LOL

Oh Golly...

Thank you. I do believe the good Mr. Aggravator might be experiencing a dawning realization that I am not inexperienced in flame wars, but that generally I do not engage in them. However, if he really wants to play ...

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:10:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Samuel Gray (#83)

Not you too...another bullshitting neocon warmonger ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   21:10:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: wudidiz (#81)

OI is not lying. Why should he? He doesn't need to.

How and why do you speak for O_I?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:12:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Original_Intent (#100)

I am not inexperienced in flame wars

Why the double negative? Can't you talk or calmly discuss anything in simple terms with FACTS?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:13:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Original_Intent (#92)

This is that point where when off the Internets I find myself face to face with one of these mother fuckers and saying 'yes, FUCK YOU mother FUCKER'...and then it's on. I thought I'd mellow with age but I simply can't tolerate 'them' especially when they think they know it all and don't have a CLUE what the truth is. Of course, this is the Internets and AGitprop along with many others can all spout off while we deep down know what we're dealing with. With AGitprop, I'm going to say defense industry suck ass. Who knows...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   21:15:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach (#99)

do believe you [James Deffenbach] have found quite the proper tenor.

What a pansy assed jerk... "I do believe" .... no facts, no data.... as always... NADA... like all your posts.

Why didn't you just come right out and say the truth concerning your own opinion: "I, Original_Intent have my nose firmly planted in your South end."

There you go with that transference again. I guess it is one of your quirks to express your homoerotic tendencies and impute them to others - perhaps in the hopes they might reciprocate? However, and whatever, the case may be unlike you and your boyfriends my interest in other men is upon a more normal level of one hetero man to another. I do hope you find your life partner some day but you are barking up the wrong leg here.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:15:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#102)

OI is not lying. Why should he? He doesn't need to.

How and why do you speak for O_I?

I've read plenty of his posts. He doesn't use the f word and he doesn't lie. At least not in any of the very many posts of his I've read.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   21:16:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Original_Intent (#105)

I guess

You pansy assed poster... you can't say anything without some wiggle room in your posts... NO FACTS, NO DATA ... just "maybe" "possibly" "I guess" ...

ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:18:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: wudidiz (#106)

He doesn't use the f word and he doesn't lie.

That isn't true.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:19:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: buckeroo (#102)

You're just jealous that your mensa card is meaningless in a chit chat station full of real Americans while sheeple like you bow down at LEAST every April to your masters.

You're a stupid fucking whore. But then we ALL know that at this point, don't we my bitch ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   21:19:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Original_Intent (#105)

perhaps in the hopes

ROTFL

However, and whatever,

ROTFL

I do hope

ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:21:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: buckeroo (#107)

You should stfu.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   21:21:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Original_Intent (#105)

There you go with that transference again. I guess it is one of your quirks to express your homoerotic tendencies and impute them to others - perhaps in the hopes they might reciprocate? However, and whatever, the case may be unlike you and your boyfriends my interest in other men is upon a more normal level of one hetero man to another. I do hope you find your life partner some day but you are barking up the wrong leg here.

LOL! Poor widdle buckywoo, still can't keep anything straight, eh?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   21:21:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo (#92)

In any event if I insult you do exactly the same thing Your Post #31 states is useful to ***Suppress Truth***

CT Fuckwit Posting Systematically Violated Rules

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents
and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated...Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   21:22:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Rotara (#109)

You're a stupid fucking whore.

Back on the ye 'ol BOZO selective filter for ya laddie.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:23:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: buckeroo (#103)

Why the double negative?

It's wordier. If you have nothing of any substance, why not at least make the message as windy as possibe?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   21:24:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: wudidiz (#111)

You should stfu.

Isn't this a chit-chat channel where you want to read and understand objective and (perhaps) not so objective opinions and ideas?

Why should I shut up?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:25:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: All (#115)

.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   21:26:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: AGAviator (#115)

Glad you said that... O_I is in my radar.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:26:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: buckeroo (#114)

You're a joke. You never put me on your filter, asswipe. You lying fucking warmist-warmongering WHORE of the gun shop owning sheeple...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   21:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: AGAviator, all (#79)

CJF

Please share with the lot of us what this little acronym is.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   21:26:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: buckeroo (#118)

Everything about you is readily available with a good PI, schmuckeroo.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   21:27:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: buckeroo (#116)

Why should I shut up?

Because your posts are stupid, dishonest and disrespectful.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   21:28:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#118)

Glad you said that... O_I is in my radar.....

Oh no.......not the dastardly radar. Say it isn't so!! Oh de humanity!!

I think you meant gaydar, but OI doesn't play that way.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   21:28:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: AGAviator (#113)

Good grief; you're such neocon afterbirth...who IS Barry Jennings ?

Are you FINALLY ready ?


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   21:29:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: buckeroo, Rotara (#114)

Back on the ye 'ol BOZO selective filter for ya laddie.

Derb nub it, Rotara has all the luck.

I'll keep trying. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   21:29:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: AGAviator (#115)

If you have nothing of any substance, why not at least make the message as windy as possibe?

I have heard that when chronic liars are polygraphed for any truth about a situation ... they draw their answers out in such a way as to make an authentic claim that goes no where but prove they are not telling the truth.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:30:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: abraxas (#123)

I think you meant gaydar, but OI doesn't play that way.

How do you know how he plays?

If you ACTUALLY read his posts, you almost think he is a choir boy hoping and praying for what..... I have no freaking' clue.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: wudidiz (#122)

Because your posts are stupid, dishonest and disrespectful.

Awwwww...... r yor feelers hurt?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:35:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: buckeroo, AGABLOWviator (#127)

If you ACTUALLY read his posts, you almost think he is a choir boy hoping and praying for what..... I have no freaking' clue.

Well, it IS your little buddy AGABLOWviator who likes to talk about inserting various objects into the anus on various threads. And you cheer lead him for it......so that does put your gayness into question as well.

Makes that BLOW part of his nickname very ironic, don't ya think?

I DO read OI's posts. I like the substance found within them. You should take some notes and aspire to post like him. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   21:39:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: wudidiz, buckeroo, all (#106)

OI is not lying. Why should he? He doesn't need to.

How and why do you speak for O_I?

I've read plenty of his posts. He doesn't use the f word and he doesn't lie. At least not in any of the very many posts of his I've read.

Just for the record I have used it, but only rarely, and always either because it was the best word for the point I was making or for humor. However, since I do not suffer a paucity of vocabulary why stoop to pedestrian vulgarity when I can force buckie to pull out his "Funk And Wagnalls" and inform himself - it would be a pleasant change from the usual.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:40:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: abraxas, buckeroo, agaviator, bastard children of the turd reich (#125)

I don't believe for one second that EITHER of these Traitors think they can afford to not pay attention...those cheap little whores.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-24   21:41:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Rotara (#104)

With AGitprop, I'm going to say defense industry suck ass. Who knows...

Definitely MIC I would think. The threadbare lexicon and reliance upon vulgarity to express his "profundities" definitely suggests a less than sophisticated education.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:44:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Rotara (#131)

I don't believe for one second that EITHER of these Traitors think they can afford to not pay attention...those cheap little whores.

lol......it would be like a cat riding in a car that can't help but look out the window.

No insult to cats of course, although the pussy analogy is fitting. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   21:45:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: buckeroo, all (#103)

I am not inexperienced in flame wars

Why the double negative? Can't you talk or calmly discuss anything in simple terms with FACTS?

Facts. I know that erudition is not your suit but I do believe we were exchanging insults. That being the case my preference is simply to highlight the lowlight of your proletarian means of expression. If a more subtle means of expression discomfits you - well so bet it. It is a price I am willing to pay.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:49:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: abraxas, Rotara (#133)

No insult to cats of course, although the pussy analogy is fitting. : )

Although, given their homoerotic tendencies in expression ... :-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:51:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: abraxas (#129)

I like the substance found within them [O_I's posts]

Like what? "possibly, "probably", "at one time", "maybe", "credence", "fact is not myth", "objective", "hope", "pray" ..... the list goes on and on and on and on .....

You like that sort of thing as opposed to hard hitting FACTS?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:52:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Original_Intent (#134)

that erudition

ROTFL

I do believe

ROTFL

simply to highlight the lowlight of your proletarian means of expression.

ROTFL

What a chaotic Bullshitter you are.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:55:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: buckeroo, wudidiz, all (#116)

Why should I shut up?

Got a little time?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:55:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Original_Intent (#130)

Just for the record

ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:55:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: buckeroo (#137)

that erudition

ROTFL

I do believe

ROTFL

simply to highlight the lowlight of your proletarian means of expression.

ROTFL

What a chaotic Bullshitter you are.

Thank you for making my point for me. Just a hint buckie, but "ROTFL" is generally not a reasonable substitute for wit.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   21:57:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Original_Intent (#138) (Edited)

Got a little time?

Hey pal... you and FL ensured another thread was killed by the site management. Your heckle & jeckle is well known.

Of course. Explain to me why you don't posses any FACTS other than BS, innuendo and hearsay.

[edit: minor]

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   21:57:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: buckeroo (#136) (Edited)

Like what? "possibly, "probably", "at one time", "maybe", "credence", "fact is not myth", "objective", "hope", "pray" ..... the list goes on and on and on and on .....

You like that sort of thing as opposed to hard hitting FACTS?

Didn't take them long to return to their tried and true Circle Jerk gaybanter and personal insults, without supplying a shred of factual evidence on dozens of successive posts.

To get somewhat back on track...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   21:58:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: buckeroo (#136)

You like that sort of thing as opposed to hard hitting FACTS?

Maybe if you consulted the dictionary while reading IO's posts your comprehension would improve. Or, you could try using some logic.

I find this ironic, as your posts do not contain any hard hitting facts.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   22:00:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: buckeroo (#139) (Edited)

ROTFL

Where are the facts?

Have you been taking posting tips from Yukon?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   22:01:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: abraxas (#143)

I find this ironic, as your posts do not contain any hard hitting facts.

Careful there, you will bring another tear to his eye.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   22:01:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: Original_Intent (#140)

I always laff at you, O_I... your substitution of a few selected polysyllables that support your own contrived and ill-conceived posts that go nowhere as opposed to factual posts is your method.

I don't fall for your BS, pal.....

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   22:01:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: All (#142)

Fireman recalls that everything had 'collapsed to dust' (26 Seconds)


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   22:02:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: buckeroo (#141)

Hey pal... you and FL ensured another thread was killed my the site management. Your heckle & jeckle is well known.

Of course. Explain to me why you don't posses any FACTS other than BS, innuendo and hearsay.

Uh, buckie? Please list every instance where I have engaged in the kind of common vulgarity to which you are prone. In none of these threads have I stooped to your level so you are simply trying, as usual, to evade responsibility for your actions and behavior. However, even this relatively mild comment is likely lost on you.

As for using innuendo and hearsay, as you are so quaintly inclined to put it - links? Instances? If you are going to attempt to assert a position on the high ground you might first consider supporting the position.

However, as usual, you will not.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   22:04:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: abraxas (#143)

Maybe

Where are O_I's FACTS? Again, all he says is: "maybe" "possibly" "perhaps" "probably" "could" "pray" .... again the list goes on and on....

I can wish on the LOTTO, too.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   22:04:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: James Deffenbach (#145)

lol......we need to invest in Kleenex. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   22:04:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Original_Intent (#148)

Please list every instance where I have engaged in the kind of common vulgarity to which you are prone.

Go research your own dirt, pal. And enjoy groveling in the same.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   22:05:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: All (#142)

Building 7 collapse This 9.6-second video shows the Building 7 collapse from a vantage point only about 1000 feet to the north.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   22:05:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#151)

Please list every instance where I have engaged in the kind of common vulgarity to which you are prone.

Go research your own dirt, pal. And enjoy groveling in the same.

Where's the proof? You said he did, so where's the evidence?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   22:07:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: abraxas (#150)

Yeah, the futures are looking good. With the shills tales all coming apart it might be a good time to buy a lot of that Kleenex stock.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   22:07:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: abraxas (#129)

Thank you.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   22:08:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: wudidiz (#153)

Please list every instance where I have engaged in the kind of common vulgarity to which you are prone.

Go research your own dirt, pal. And enjoy groveling in the same.

Where's the proof? You said he did, so where's the evidence?

Oh, the delights of irony. Poor buckie is caught upon the horns of dilemma, but that's OK as usual he'll blow it off. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   22:10:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: buckeroo, ALL (#141)

it wasn't FL and OI who were using the most vulgar language. why don't you all agree that you're never going to change each other's minds on 9/11 and either bozo each other or go on to other topics?

if that's not possible and the gross ad homs continue, i'll lock down this thread too.

christine  posted on  2010-07-24   22:10:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: buckeroo (#149)

You know, Buck, your perception is so cloudy on so many issues that I really can't agree with you. You are wrong so often on SO many issues, that I feel confident betting you are wrong again.

Sure, you can wish for the LOTTO.......good luck!!

Meanwhile, you can continue posting those intellectual masterpieces from "How to Post Like Yukon" while you complain about the posts of others. I'm sure nobody will notice.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   22:11:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: wudidiz, AGAviator (#153)

Where's the proof? You said he did, so where's the evidence?

Thread after thread after thread O_I has been charging after AG.

I refuse to waste my time re-examining a known fact and submitting it here... you know how to use the forum's technical capabilities... convince yourself.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   22:12:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: christine, AGAviator (#157)

it wasn't FL and OI who were using the most vulgar language.

Yes they did... and they lied about their conspiratorial theories based on BS and crap. What is going on, Christine.... is a serious problem on 4um.

The conspiracy theoreticians are being debunked (BEFORE THEIR EYES) with original data and FACTS. And they don't like it... so they lob all kinds of off topic remarcks ... that side-track the discussions.

And, you know it, too.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   22:16:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: christine, Original_Intent, *9-11* (#157)

Distant view of North Tower collapse from north-northeast
This 94-second CNN clip shows the North Tower collapse, with the collapse starting about 30 seconds into the video. It shows the afterglow, and the dust cloud advancing to the Hudson. Since this video shows the complete collapse, and has a real-time clock, it is especially valuable for documenting the the timeline of the collapse.

* If you fullscreen this and watch carefully, at about :48 to :59, you can easily see the four foot thick core columns disintegrating and/or vaporizing.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   22:18:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: buckeroo, christine, AGAviator (#160)

What is going on, Christine.... is a serious problem on 4um.

Speaking of conspiracy theories..........lol

Seriously, buck, you are sounding completely delusional. The thread is right there for anybody to read. AGAviator was, and continues to be on this thread, extremely vulgar.

You've been side tracking ad nauseum with he said, she said, poor victim, bitching, complaining, insulting, sniveling and sand box tirades.

Who do you think you are fooling?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   22:21:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: James Deffenbach (#32)

when he wakes up in the morning he uses the quarter found in his teeth as proof some one loves him.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-24   22:21:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: buckeroo (#160)

The conspiracy theoreticians are being debunked (BEFORE THEIR EYES) with original data and FACTS.

i disagree

And, you know it, too.

i disagree

christine  posted on  2010-07-24   22:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: abraxas (#158)

Meanwhile, you can continue posting those intellectual masterpieces from "How to Post Like Yukon" while you complain about the posts of others.

Oh, ouch! That would leave a mark, or it would if he was sentient.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   22:22:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: IRTorqued (#163)

when he wakes up in the morning he uses the quarter found in his teeth as proof some one loves him.

Good one.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   22:25:30 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: James Deffenbach (#165)

lol.......I would post that hillarious clip from Tommy Boy, but, alas, you know of my embedding woes. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   22:27:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: abraxas (#167)

Indeed. After you get that taken care of then you can post it, eh?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-24   22:30:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: christine, AGAviator (#164)

That thread you shut down at over one thousand posts was because ... FL did not come clean about himself (AND THE popcorn RABBLE_ROUSERS) after he begged and taunted AG for about 100 posts concerning an off-topic consideration.

AG and I both and a few others (from time to time) tried to bring the thread back to the subject matter based on the article posted. Time and again... we were berated with insults, plagerized silly animated gifs and back stabbing unbecoming of the thread topic.

Of course I finally got pissed off at 1200+ posts ... FL and his silly pals backed offed and repeatedly lied about FL's demands from post#527 to over post#900 ... wherein I had to PROVE that Hanjour was credentialed.

And after that... it was deny, play, deny, play..... and denigrate what I had thought was an outstanding subject to portray the silly issue of the conspiracy.

Look it all up yourself... to include when you remarcked to me "you were pwned."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   22:31:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: Original_Intent (#82)

there you go using words AGovshill and bucky won't understand, again. their school girl tears will be a deluge which in past cases have washed away entire threads. with the amount tooth gnashing they've done they will have but bony gums by tomorrow.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-24   22:40:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: buckeroo, christine (#160) (Edited)

it wasn't FL and OI who were using the most vulgar language.

I don't know how replying to a post about "your boyfriend" with words like "circlejerk" or "fuckwit" is is any worse, than the original snide homoerotic remark that starts the exchange.

On this thread, Post #23 starts the gaybanter. My response is Post #26. Post #27 follows up on Post #23 looking for an opening. My response is on Post #28, saying I'm noting for the record who starts these things.

When I started posting on this subject a month ago, I made my position perfectly clear. There is a 911 connection with parts of the US MIC and Israel, but it goes through Saudia Arabia, Cairo, and Pakistan as well as Washington and Tel Aviv.

And it's a far greater and more supportable position that those US MIC/Israel elements had some willing accomplices and only needed to look the other way to let their other side cohorts do the work both sides wanted to happen, for different reasons.

Of course that isn't good anough for the 911 fanatics. They need to accuse everybody who doesn't subscribe to their theories 100% as being on the government side.

I also continue to note with every post that Noam Chomsky states the 911 CT's take discourse into unproductive territories, which is why they're not seriously suppressed by the PTB. Of course the reflex response of the CT's is to trash Chomsky.

Why don't you all agree that you're never going to change each other's minds on 9/11 and either bozo each other or go on to other topics?

Several people claiming to have bozoed buck and myself, nevertheless continue posting to his or my remarks on threads, either by claiming to look at replies to either of us whom they say they've bozoed, or looking at threads without logging in. People who say they'be bozoed someone should not be making any replies either direct or indirect. Anything else is lying and cheating.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   22:40:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: christine, Original_Intent, *9-11* (#169)

North Tower collapse from northeast
This 29-second video shows the top of the North Tower from the northeast, with the collapse staring about 16 seconds into the video. It shows that the radio tower starts to descend about a second before the facade stards to move. The clip is from WTC: The First 24 Hours

* Why would the radio tower start to drop before the facade?


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   22:41:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: James Deffenbach (#166)

that is until he draws the connection between the quarter and his jiz dribbling bung.


computer counted ballots are ballots that have been counted in secret, and with all probability not the way one voted.

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-24   22:42:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: AGAviator, *9-11* (#171)

"Pancaking"


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   22:44:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: christine, buckeroo (#166)

when he wakes up in the morning he uses the quarter found in his teeth as proof some one loves him.

Good one.

How does this comment rate on your vulgarity scale?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   22:49:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: christine (#173)

that is until he draws the connection between the quarter and his jiz dribbling bung.

How about this comment. Where does it rate on ***vulgarity?***

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   22:50:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: christine, All (#157)

if that's not possible and the gross ad homs continue, i'll lock down this thread too.

I would hope that everyone concerned realizes that the endless posting on the same subject is slowly dragging 4um down.

A little concern for the 4um and other posters is overdue.

You are correct not my 4um but for my friends here, please show a little more respect for the rest of us.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-07-24   22:56:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: buckeroo, wudidiz, RickyJ, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, Rotara, abraxas, Original_Intent (#127)

hey bucky thanks for the new tag line.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-24   22:59:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: AGAviator, ALL (#176)

they are vulgar. as i wrote on the other thread, the discussion has degenerated. if you all want to continue the exercise in futility, that's fine with me, but please do it without the vulgarity.

christine  posted on  2010-07-24   23:00:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: AGAviator, christine (#176)

We have a serious disconnect... some of us want to believe in the TWOOFER_FAERIE and some of us want to believe in FACTS so as to enjoin the nation whole again.

The 9/11 conspiracy theories remove our capability to change this nation. But one thing I know... whether anyone has seen it or cares, AG and I have some of the lowest index scores of being on 4um .. which means that opinions are considered..... when a grain of truth or falsehood is stated.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   23:04:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: Cynicom (#177)

A little concern for the 4um and other posters is overdue.

You are correct not my 4um but for my friends here, please show a little more respect for the rest of us.

well said. i don't wish to stifle good debate, but when it breaks down into nothing but insult after insult, that's not constructive.

christine  posted on  2010-07-24   23:04:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: christine, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, pilots with no compass (#181)

i don't wish to stifle good debate, but when it breaks down into nothing but insult after insult, that's not constructive.

Why don't you pick on FL and O_I as a result? They have stymied free and consistent debate with Bullshit and subterfuge... lying their asses all the way to thread pandemonium.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   23:09:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: AGAviator, Christine (#176)

How about this comment. Where does it rate on ***vulgarity?***

I vote this one from AGAviator to me as the most vulgar:

"From the thread history, it's very clear you "FUCKWITS, FUCKTARDS, and stupid fucks" start the name calling, then snivel and whine when you get repaid in kind. As for you personally, Circle Jerk Fag Hag, you have long ago forefeited any privileges being female by your own disrespect for others.

Your role as a group cheerleader for a group of cowardly jerkoffs who hide behind banning filters, then take sneak peeks by looking at replies, makes you someone deserving of the type of rants Mel Gibson serves up to Oksana.

Fuck you in your a$$, hypocritical Circle Jerk Fag Hag."

Stop throwing stones you hypocrite. The difference between the other post and yours is that the other poster was JOKING while you are totally serious in your vulgar tirades.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   23:11:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: wudidiz, buckeroo, Original_Intent (#153)

Please list every instance where I have engaged in the kind of common vulgarity to which you are prone.

Go research your own dirt, pal. And enjoy groveling in the same.

Where's the proof? You said he did, so where's the evidence?

bucky doesn't need proof he has government supplied talking points that to him and the other goofenheimer of the liar movement is all the evidence one should require.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-24   23:12:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: Cynicom, christine, All (#177)

I would hope that everyone concerned realizes that the endless posting on the same subject is slowly dragging 4um down.

A little concern for the 4um and other posters is overdue.

You are correct not my 4um but for my friends here, please show a little more respect for the rest of us.us.

Cyni, People are free to block the thread and/or any posters they don't like. Picture how many posts there would be if not for the 9/11 posts.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   23:12:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: buckeroo, christine (#180)

The 9/11 conspiracy theories remove our capability to change this nation.

You're nuts.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-24   23:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: buckeroo (#182)

i addressed my post to ALL, buck. i wouldn't characterize what they've written as lies. it's their own interpretation of evidence. as i said, you are never going to change each other's minds. i'm not going to go round and round with you on this. everyone, please, just do as i've requested and cease the vulgarity.

christine  posted on  2010-07-24   23:17:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: IRTorqued (#184)

bucky doesn't need proof he has government supplied talking points that to him and the other goofenheimer of the liar movement is all the evidence one should require.

No FACTS, no EVIDENCE, no WITNESSES ... just pure gossip, BS and innuendo/poppycock as usual .. and you probably wonder why I rarely (if ever) reply to you.

You are lost ... struggling to find a bit of truth. And, I can not help you.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   23:20:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: all (#188)

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media." ~ William Colby, Director, CIA 1973–1976

Nothing in the State, everything outside the State, everything against the State - Jan Lester, Escape From Leviathan

"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it." - Frederic Bastiat

Good order results spontaneously when things are let alone. - Zhuangzi

F.A. Hayek Fan  posted on  2010-07-24   23:22:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: wudidiz (#185)

Cyni, People are free to block the thread and/or any posters they don't like. Picture how many posts there would be if not for the 9/11 posts.

wud...

Would you consider that the endless posting and language is driving people away?

I come here frequently in the day, full page of same content, same few posters, I go elsewhere. I have been down this road before, have seen a good forum destroyed, by a handful of posters. I would disagree with you on this.

Cynicom  posted on  2010-07-24   23:23:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: christine, Cynicom (#187)

i addressed my post to ALL, buck.

Your post wasn't to "ALL" at 181 it was to Cynicom. I replied to you @182 and now ... I am to blame ...

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   23:24:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: AGAviator (#72)

The problem of course is that your supposed debunking doesn't.

The story it tells is that of an asymmetrical collapse, and yet we can see from the films of the building's collapse that is was uniform, symmetrical, inward (i.e., it imploded), and proceeding down into it's own footprint.

While I will grant that some of the structure could have degraded the fires were neither hot enough nor widespread enough to account for any structural failures, and those failures are also explainable in the context of the explosions reported by Barry Jennings. Link To Firefighters for 911 Truth and an extensive selection of videos.

The other problem with this story is that a normal catastrophic collapse of a structure will proceed in the direction of primary failure i.e., it begins its collapse at the point of first failure and proceeds in that direction (an object in motion tends to stay in motion and in the direction it was traveling barring the imposition of another directed force.) So a primary failure at one point, even followed by another individual or two points of failure do not cause a uniform, symmetrical, collapse at near freefall (6.6 seconds from the initiation of the primary collapse and freefall is 6.0 seconds. So, less than a second's difference between the two.)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-24   23:25:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: buckeroo (#188)

samatter bucky can't hang with getting called on your BS claims? we'll know when liar movement goes under as there will be a back page report in a podunk newspaper about an unemployed goofenheimer committing suicide among a sea of popular mechanics 9-11 issues.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-24   23:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#183)

Stop throwing stones you hypocrite

You are the people who start it. The manner and means I choose to reply are my business.

You made a number of derogatory remarks, or cheered on others making derogatory remarks, before I even bothered to address any remarks to you. I can take the high road or the low road. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   23:35:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: abraxas (#183) (Edited)

More selective quoting I see.

Here's the rest of the reply

#1177. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#1098) (Edited)

Er, let's see who is it calling others FUCKWIT, FUCKTARD, stupid fuck.....yada, yada, yada.

So let's see where the stink bomb throwing on this thread started, shall we?

#41. To: buckeroo (#39) perfect, asswipe Rotara posted on 2010-07-17 20:14:03 ET #44. To: Rotara (#42) Lol.......I have a sinister plan to pay for all of that counseling. Draft a ten step plan: How to get onto Buck's Bozo Filter. Many at 4um will open their wallets happily for such a valuable, dare I say priceless, information. They will pay double if the plan applies to AGAviator. abraxas posted on 2010-07-17 20:20:34 ET

#108. To: buckeroo (#104) wow and you learned how to use the blink tag too, that must be why they made you a ranking member of the liar movement you are a down right genieass. IRTorqued posted on 2010-07-18 0:36:32 ET

#117. To: AGAviator (#116) ... Shit, if you can't even watch the f'n video where the eye witnesses will tell you exactly what you are asking of me, then you are hopeless and you really don't want any answers to the questions you pose. The witnesses clearly articulate AN EXPLOSION.......watch for yourself or shut your pie hole. abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 1:14:15 ET

#119. To: abraxas, AGAviator (#117) ... Objection your honor! There is no evidence that the accused puts pie in it. (I do so love double entendres.) ;-) Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-18 1:18:53 ET

#127. To: AGAviator (#126) ... How can you simply lie like that on a public forum? As if others won't notice that your are blatantly dishonest. What a dork!! abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 2:48:06 ET

#146. To: AGAviator (#142) I'm not interested in your dishonesty about the contents of the video. I know what the WITNESSES stated.......only you think you know more about what they witnessed despite being far, far away. ... YOU, nowhere near the buildings (kissing government ass in another state I suspect), claim that YOU know more about these explosions that frickin' EYE WITNESSES and people who WORKED in the buildings and people who SAVED LIVES on that day. YOU and the government can IGNORE them, but that only discredits your official bullshit story more. You run along and tell these people who were there that they are full of shit and only YOU know the truth of the matter. I know, not only are you a liar but you are also a coward who wouldn't say word one to them if you had them front and center, but it's real easy to talk shit about what they witnessed from such a distance. abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 15:53:33 ET

#148. To: abraxas (#146) Good post, abraxas. James Deffenbach posted on 2010-07- 18 16:18:59 ET

#157. To: buckeroo (#154) ... Photographic evidence and testimony from demo EXPERTS, not Internet bloviators, confirm that. abraxas posted on 2010-07-18 17:06:12 ET

From the thread history, it's very clear you "FUCKWITS, FUCKTARDS, and stupid fucks" start the name calling, then snivel and whine when you get repaid in kind.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   23:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: abraxas (#194)

must be a reply to bucky.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-24   23:38:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: Dakmar (#0)

911 In Plane Site ~ Directors Cut 1:12:21 - 2 years ago

Produced by Dave vonKleist & William Lewis Hosted by Dave vonKleist | Directed by William Lewis. What “In Plane Site” accomplishes that no other video expose’ on September 11th has to date, is it exposes the viewer to a barrage of news clips from a majority of the mainstream news outlets. The official story of that day was told on live TV by reporters, policemen, firefighters, and other on-the-scene eyewitnesses, however, that footage was shown only once on live television broadcasts in the first hours of the attacks and then… it was never repeated. The stories changed, information was enigmatically omitted, and what can only be described as officially prescribed propaganda took the place of indisputable reality.

Itistoolate  posted on  2010-07-24   23:41:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: christine, buckereoo (#187)

everyone, please, just do as i've requested and cease the vulgarity.

I will no longer reply directly to any posts with insults or inappropriate language, and will not enagage in same myself.

I will note any, citing this post, and also note 3rd hand replies from people claiming to have put either buck or myself onto bozo filter but continuing to reply to remarks we make.

We'll see who breaks the rules and runs out of gas first.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   23:47:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: AGAviator (#194)

You are the people who start it. The manner and means I choose to reply are my business.

Enough with the lies. Nobody believes you. I wonder if you even believe yourself. Perhaps you truly are delusional. Please post all of these deragotory remarks and this supposed cheering. The last time you attempted to do this, you revealed that my posts, unlike yours, are not vulgar nor do they warrant your emotional tirades in response.

Sheesh, you can't dish out anything that I can't take. Don't kid yourself into thinking that you can. You get all in a huffy, spit all over your monitor and commense in making a royal ass of yourself over the slightest remark that puts your inflated ego in check. You can't take the high road because you are TOO emotional, but you can take a midol.

Enough with your lies and pretending to be a poor little victim. As if it isn't bad enough to be you, you can't even man up enough to understand that your bitching, whining, sniveling and pity party rants ad nausum are pathetic and NOBODY believes a word of it.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   23:47:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: AGAviator (#175)

#494. To: AGAviator, LP Banning notice. (#480)

For general antagonistic attitude and creating dissent without contributing to the discussions on this site, your account has been closed.

I've reviewed your past remarks, and you have ridiculed, defamed, and made rude remarks.

Although I think you are intelligent, and capable of good research you are not using those skills in a way that promotes our Constitutional Republic, and in fact is more in line with harming same.

I wish you well - but not on this website.

Goldi-Lox posted on 2009-11-15 21:12:12 ET

And your first post at LP....

#265. To: JauntyBeesting (#246)

You practice, promote and tolerate the rawest racial vilification of these people. Objet posted enough of your stomach-turners to make THAT point...

You fling around vile personal attacks -- e.g., personally charging ME with "hating Jews" and hating YOU because you are a Jew...

But then, in addition to your down-and-dirty resort to smears of anti-semitism, you also adopt the weepy-therapeutic-narcissistic vaporing of the Left -- namely: you were oh-so-offended and hurt and "personally attacked" by posts like mine that talk about Palestinian ambulances and medics have the hell shot out of them (and killed -- and beaten and tortured in alarming numbers -- by IDF war criminals...

You prance and preen as a Joan of Arc seeking "truth" and combating "haters"...instead, you are a blatant censor and a vile racist (gotta look out for them "P's", remember) who cheerfully admits she censors.

THEN you had the nerve to blast away all day yesterday about how these unnamed troglodyte "haters" on the other side -- presumably those who might post something critical of Israel and of your hero, Ariel Sharo

Same ol' stuff, different site, eh Jaunty?

AGAviator posted on 2002-08-26 16:52:15 ET

There is no question that you have capability and know your stuff.... but will anyone research your posts? Will anyone care to realize that on LP you were tried and convicted of objective opinions based on both MadDog and yukon with hostess, there.

You are an outstanding poster, AG... I don't give a damn what the others say about ya.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-24   23:51:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: IRTorqued (#196)

lol......must be. Those two can't even craft a post without the other one following up with some brown nosing about it, then blather on about what victims they are and how smart they think they are.

It's sort of creepy.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   23:51:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#199)

As if it isn't bad enough to be you, you can't even man up enough to understand that your bitching, whining, sniveling and pity party rants ad nausum are pathetic and NOBODY believes a word of it.

See Post #198.

I'll give you a pass on this one because you likely didn't have the time to read my post. Even though you are not setting any kind of example yourself.

From now on, however, you will be called on any and every failure to observe proper forum decorum.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-24   23:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#200)

There is no question that you have capability and know your stuff.... but will anyone research your posts? Will anyone care to realize that on LP you were tried and convicted of objective opinions based on both MadDog and yukon with hostess, there.

You are an outstanding poster, AG... I don't give a damn what the others say about ya.

Sheesh, buck, have you no shame? Can't you post this sychophant butt kissing on the PM?

You two look like idiots fawning over one another ad nauseum. Not that I care, but, egads, try to muster up an iota of dignity.

And the answer is: NO, NOBODY WILL CARE, NOBODY WILL RESEARCH THE POSTS.......only you buck--you are the wind beneath AG's wings.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-24   23:57:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: AGAviator (#202)

What is vulgar about my post? It's full of facts. I was attempting to help you salvage an iota of dignity.....guess I was too late. You know, it's really bad when you have pushed me to pity you.

Go ahead and call on, AG. Knock your socks off. I think trying to help you salvage an iota of dignity is above and beyond proper forum decorum.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   0:00:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: abraxas, christine, buckeroo (#203) (Edited)

Can't you post this sychophant butt kissing on the PM?

You two look like idiots fawning over one another ad nauseum. Not that I care, but, egads, try to muster up an iota of dignity

Continuing your obsessive, vulgar, and pathological attacks after being asked by the forum manager in Post #187 40 minutes ago to give it a rest, I see.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   0:00:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: AGAviator, christine, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, buckeroo, abraxas, all (#175)

How does this comment rate on your vulgarity scale?

Hilarious. +3

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   0:07:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#205)

obsessive, vulgar, and pathological attacks

That right there is funny.

Butt kissing, brown nosing--I call it like I see it. No attack, just the facts and you two were just whining for facts. I think even you know that it's true. Take it to PM.

Christine is going to tire quickly of your pings. This isn't a sand box. Grow up.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   0:10:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: AGAviator, christine (#205)

Man.. you had a seven year history on LP from 2002 to 2009... with hundreds of awesome posts...

And, I am discussed as butt-kissing your ass by recognizing a damned good poster? I think some of these folks on 4um have their own heads up their ass... butt-licking themselves.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   0:11:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: wudidiz, All (#172)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   0:14:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#207) (Edited)

Christine is going to tire quickly of your pings. This isn't a sand box. Grow up

Seems like it hasn't dawned on you that Christine is the one who locked down the other thread because she thought it unproductive, and who asked everybody in Post #187 to give it a rest.

Your reply: "I'm not vulgar. No, not me. Calling someone a brown nose is not vulgar when I do it. I'm just calling like it see it."

Looks like you're due for some ***edification.***

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   0:17:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: IRTorqued (#193)

we'll know when liar movement goes under as there will be a back page report in a podunk newspaper about an unemployed goofenheimer committing suicide among a sea of popular mechanics 9-11 issues.

Where are they today? It's only been about ten years ... yeah, over ten years now... because the planning would take place prior to the actual event on 9/11/2001 and those same "goofenheimers" would have come forward by now.

As is usual, no PROOF, no Evidence, no WITNESSES and no FACTS .. just silly nonsense spreading BS around for a wild ride in the yard.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   0:18:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: Eric Stratton (#209)

BEFORE the building starts to collapse downware.

Minor correction with the visual footage you saw... "appears" ... still no EVIDENCE of any demolition.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   0:20:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#210)

We all know why the other post was locked down. Only you and Buckie dream that it was on the verge of "stellar" when the lot of us accepted it needed to be flushed.

Giving it a rest doesn't mean pinging her to every post YOU DEEM not up to forum decorum. Nobody asked you to be the self proclaimed site monitor. You were simply asked to take your butt kissing and brown nosing to PM.

You sure aren't qualified to give edification to a piss ant, let along any posters here at 4um.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   0:22:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: Original_Intent (#206)

How does this comment rate on your vulgarity scale?

Hilarious. +3

Your rating.

Site manager's rating.

everyone, please, just do as i've requested and cease the vulgarity.

christine posted on 2010-07-24 23:17:50

Yeah, not important to do anything on a request to "please" stop the behavior.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   0:27:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: Dakmar, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, ALL (#0)

"They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard.

Exactly.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   0:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#213)

You were simply asked to take your butt kissing and brown nosing to PM

And you were told to "please" stop the vulgar remarks, which you naturally are incapable of doing because you have nothing of content to communicate and you can't bear the thought of not saying anything at all.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   0:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: abraxas, christine, *Post Of The Day* (#213)


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   0:30:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: buckeroo, All (#212)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   0:31:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: AGAviator, buckeroo (#216)

Brown nosing and butt kissing are the appropriate verbs to describe the verbal exchanges between you and buck. That right there is a fact. It should also be taken to PM.

Aren't you going to ping Christine to buck's response about butt licking that didn't describe any content at all. Come on, now, if you are going to be the self proclaimed site monitor, you best turn buckie in for his vulgar remark. Or shall you carry on with more hypocricy?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   0:35:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: Eric Stratton (#218)

Most of the shit you believe doesn't appear

Once, while riding through the Mohave desert on my dirt bike, I looked ahead into the distance instead of keeping my eyes on the trail I was transversing. I thought for a moment ( and this was about 20 miles into my ride on a hot day ) ... easy views in the bright sunlight) that there was really a water lake ahead of me.

WOW... was I fooled... what appeared in the distance took my eyes off the rode and I crashed in that brief moment when I should have discerned how to be fooled by physical characteristics.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   0:38:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: Eric Stratton, all (#218)

We've been asked to tone down the language.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   0:40:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: buckeroo, All (#220)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   0:42:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: buckeroo (#220)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   0:42:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: wudidiz (#221)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   0:43:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: Eric Stratton (#224)

freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/re...tNum=120821&Disp=157#C157


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   0:46:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#219)

Aren't you going to ping Christine to buck's response about butt licking that didn't describe any content at all

As you yourself say, he's responding to a "butt kissing" remark by you.

If it's vulgar it's because you made it so originally.

[quote] And, I am discussed as butt-kissing your ass by recognizing a damned good poster? [/quote]
Any other attempts to deflect from your own remarks which initiate these exchanges?

Hey buck, on Post #198 I said I would no longer reply in kind to the provocations by the usual subjects, and see how quickly they run out of gas by being unable to cite data and facts. Care to give it a try?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   0:46:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: Cynicom (#190)

wud...

Would you consider that the endless posting and language is driving people away?

I come here frequently in the day, full page of same content, same few posters, I go elsewhere. I have been down this road before, have seen a good forum destroyed, by a handful of posters. I would disagree with you on this.is.

Cyni,

Yes, maybe you're right.


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   0:49:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: AGAviator (#226)

Care to give it a try?

After I become tired and determine there is only non-cordial methods anymore. It is easy for anyone to make their silly posts ... still, FACTS and SUBSTANCE mean more than all the conspiracy and BS combined.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   0:51:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: wudidiz (#225)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   0:51:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: AGAviator (#226)

Butt licking doesn't describe the content of the posts between the two of you.....butt kissing does. We all know what the terms brown noser and butt kisser mean, so don't play stupid.

I didn't make if vulgar, it is what it is. I do not, and will not, deflect from my remarks. You are attempting to make an issue out of a non issue because you want to be self proclaimed site monitor.

Another epic failure on your part. Like I said, when you and buck want to brown nose and butt kiss, do it on PM. And if you are going to respond to folks noting your butt kissing and brown nosing, don't bring butt licking into the exchange......or anus as you like to do.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   0:54:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#231. To: Eric Stratton (#229)

There's a difference between "vulgar language" and profanity.

i agree.

christine  posted on  2010-07-25   0:54:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: christine (#231)

If so, how come some posters get away with "fecal matter" spewing from their own lips such as FormerLurker and Original_Intent?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   0:57:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: Eric Stratton, christine (#229) (Edited)

I'll try though.

Cool. I figured I'd update you because it seemed like you weren't aware of the recent memo ;-)


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   1:04:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: Dakmar, FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#0)

"Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model."

This quote is all about you both, FL and OI.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-25   1:05:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#230) (Edited)

I didn't make if vulgar, it is what it is. I do not, and will not, deflect from my remarks. You are attempting to make an issue out of a non issue because you want to be self proclaimed site monitor.

I'm not the one who decided to lock down the other thread, and I had nothing to do with the locking down. You're the one sniveling about my post to you, and you'll lose if either the high road or the low road is taken.

All I'm doing is pointing out that none of you can live by the standards you demand of your detractors. And none of you can go for any length of time citing facts and keeping away from the vulgar and off-topic.

Like now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   1:08:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: AGAviator (#235)

I had nothing to do with the locking down. You're the one sniveling about my post to you, and you'll lose if either the high road or the low road is taken.

I'm not sniveling, I merely voted your post most vulgar as you were hypocritically pointing out the how vulgar other posts are.

Your vulgar posts had a big part in shutting down that thread. It's extremely dishonest to deny that FACT. Man up and accept your responsibility.

Sheesh, you've been playing the victim card ad nauseum, moaning, bitching, complaining and sniveling about others doing WHAT YOU DO. I don't play the victim card and you've never stepped foot on the high road.

Enough with your lies.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   1:23:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#237. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#236)

I'm not sniveling, I merely voted your post most vulgar

Sure, it's not sniveling when you do it, and not vulgar when you say it.

HAHAHAHA.

Your vulgar posts had a big part in shutting down that thread.

The chronology of who said what first, and what my responses were, to statements others had already made, are crystal clear. There is no way you can lie your way out of the recorded posting times. Like I said, the method and means of responding to people like you are my choices, not yours. You'll just have to live with them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   1:34:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#238. To: abraxas (#236)

Lying seems to be part of the "debunker" mentality. Their patron un-saint "The Less Than Amazing Randi" and the Septical Inquirer crowd have been caught more than once. Their mindset also seems to be "The Champions of Official Orthodoxy" whatever the current official orthodoxy is. The debunkers have made more twists and turns than a corkscrew. Every time the "received" wisdom from the Holy Establishment changes their opinion immediately changes with it - "and that's the way it's been forever".I have little patience for them because "the lights are on but there is nobody home". They do not think they regurgitate. And because it is either a fixation or something that they are, in some cases, paid to believe the likelihood of their ever waking up is vanishingly small. Still they are useful for one thing and that is making us think and to refine our understanding of the facts. We do have a couple of advantages over them though. The truth is the basic fundamental isness and is the reality and because of that their lies have to constantly be repeated over and over and over to keep them in place whereas the truth just is. The other advantage we have is that we can be wrong a thousand times and still be right as it only takes "1" incontrovertable fact to show that what they are pushing is a lie whereas they cannot admit error even once or else their entire edifice of lies crumbles.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   1:43:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: AGAviator, abraxas (#237)

You'll just have to live with them.

No, you'll have to live with them. You can be as nasty as you wish and it is no skin off my nose. At the very most you are an irritant and one that can be easily ignored. However, that nastiness tends to boomerang in the long run, which is while I will from time to time ave some fun at your expense I never get real nasty.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   1:47:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: AGAviator (#235)

Thank you for reviving the posts about 9/11 around here. The more people that know the truth the faster the criminals who did it will be brought to justice.

WTC 7 is waking people up every single minute. Soon the tidal wave against this injustice will topple the structure that protected the ones who did it and helped those who did it. If you were smart you would realize this.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   2:03:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#241. To: buckeroo (#200)

You are an outstanding poster, AG... I don't give a damn what the others say about ya.

He is a step up from you, but that isn't saying much.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   2:16:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#242. To: AGAviator (#65)

I love it, keep it up. WTC 7 wakes them up every time without fail. Most still haven't even seen it fall.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   2:24:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#243. To: abraxas, Original_Intent, wudidiz, twentytwelve, christine (#207)

Christine is going to tire quickly of your pings. This isn't a sand box. Grow up.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-25   2:25:47 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#244. To: RickyJ (#242)

(only 100 seconds)


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   2:40:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#238)

Lying seems to be part of the "debunker" mentality

LIE

You, and AGGravator, have been misrepresenting Hanjour's LEARNER'S PERMIT as a license to BE a commercial pilot, when all it did was give him a license to LEARN to be a commercial pilot UNDER SUPERVISION.

Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-23 16:49:06 ET

REALITY: 14 CFR 61.133 - Commercial pilot privileges and limitations

TITLE 14 - AERONAUTICS AND SPACE

CHAPTER I - FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION

SUBCHAPTER D - AIRMEN

PART 61 - CERTIFICATION: PILOTS, FLIGHT INSTRUCTORS, AND GROUND INSTRUCTORS

subpart f - COMMERCIAL PILOTS

61.133 - Commercial pilot privileges and limitations.

(a) Privileges(1) General. A person who holds a commercial pilot certificate may act as pilot in command of an aircraft (i) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation; and

(ii) For compensation or hire, provided the person is qualified in accordance with this part and with the applicable parts of this chapter that apply to the operation.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   2:42:20 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: Rotara (#104)

With AGitprop, I'm going to say defense industry suck ass.

Yes, they suck ass and all who work for the defense industry suck ass. If I had a choice of starving or making smart bombs for the military, I would choose starving every time. Others though will try to justify their hypocritical life saying they only help the good guys. LOL!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   2:45:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#244)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   2:46:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#246)

With AGitprop, I'm going to say defense industry suck ass.

Yes, they suck ass and all who work for the defense industry suck ass

You're not important enough to have anybody from the defense industry post to you.

Tell me one Congress person or government official you've had take up your "the government did 911" conspiracy theory in the last 8 years - even though dozens of Congress people are now advocating the US quit Afghanistan and scale back the WOT in general.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   2:50:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#249. To: AGAviator (#248)

You're not important enough to have anybody from the defense industry post to you.

Dude, I already figure you are a minimum wage stooge, it shows with every post you make. No, I wasn't referring to you there. LOL!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   2:52:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#250. To: AGAviator (#247)

LOL..... Fire Damage....


"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   2:56:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#251. To: AGAviator (#248)

Tell me one Congress person or government official you've had take up your "the government did 911" conspiracy theory in the last 8 years

Jesse Ventura, former Governor of Minnesota. Strong possibility he will run for president in 2012. You better hope he loses.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   2:57:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: AGAviator (#247)

Damage and fire? What damage? What fire? Get real!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   3:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#253. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#249) (Edited)

a minimum wage stooge...shows with every post you make

You're the one flogging 8 year old CT's that fewer people believe in than believe in ET abductions.

And with zero public officials supporting them.

Promising "any day now" as though you can repeat the same thing day after day, year after year, and expect a different result than the one you've already been handed day after day, year after year.

Obviously never having heard that "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results."

BHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   3:03:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#254. To: All (#253)

.


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning so far

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   3:04:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#255. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#253)

Promising "any day now" as though you can repeat the same thing day after day, year after year, and expect a different result than the one you've already been handed day after day, year after year.

Obviously never having heard that "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, expecting different results."

I think it was Edison who said he didn't mind failing 500 times because that meant he was 500 steps closer to succeeding. Or something like that.


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning so far

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   3:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: All (#254)

"Pull it"

They "pulled it" to smithereens.


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning so far

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   3:13:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#257. To: AGAviator (#253) (Edited)

You're the one flogging 8 year old CT's that fewer people believe in than believe in ET abductions.

Well if you want to believe that, go right ahead. Deceiving your own self won't change the truth though. Every time someone sees WTC 7 come down for the first time you can see their eyes get wide and the lights go on upstairs. It is waking people up better than any words could. It is tough for you stooges that can't use your talking points to make it all go away. But don't despair, I am sure you will get paid regardless of your effectiveness. They couldn't expect much from you anyway.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   3:16:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#258. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#255)

I think it was Edison who said he didn't mind failing 500 times because that meant he was 500 steps closer to succeeding

That only applies when you do something 500 different ways and learn from your 500 mistakes....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   3:20:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#259. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator, Rotara, buckaroo, James_Deffenbach (#98)

What has become apparent is that he is either in the military or been in it. That's why I am guessing he works for the CENTCOM disinfo squad.

AGAviator is probably AIR GUARD Aviator, which is where even young non coms can jockey cargo into hot (as in "war" and "profit") zones.

The patriotic tone is set mostly by young and dumb pilots and ground crewmen, and because critical thinking skills are seldom required and (any that contradict the prevailing political agenda are) certainly not encouraged in AG's MOS, he simply isn't permitted to think the unthinkable. In fact if not for self deception on an industrial scale there would be no volunteer military at all. ("I'm killing women and children in far away lands to keep America free!"- Get it?)

Even if he's an older pilot he doesn't get points for seeing through the corruption that is the US Govt from top to bottom.

The very idea of showing up at a monthly guard muster and speaking obvious truths i.e. "Pearl Harbor was no surprise" or "Vietnam was a mistake" would result in immediate loss of status and accrued macho points, which are essential to long term survival in govt service.

Remember what happened to the IRS agent (Joe Bannister) for simply asking to be shown "the law that never was"? You'll find that this demand for intellectual dishonesty spans the entire govt and all quasi-and ancillary occupations from federally licensed river pilots to research scientists, and it includes active and retired personnel.

It's no different for military pilots or critically wounded grunts like buck who want to keep their pensions. If they speak out their benevolent tyrant masters may cut off their incomes. The one point that I feel is fair criticism is that neither have revealed that truth about themselves, that their first loyalty is to their pension checks, and even if they agreed with you they wouldn't dare say it here or anywhere else where those who demand their blind loyalty may see it.

The simple fact is govt loyalists are of such low moral character that they shouldn't even be permitted to vote. They are with few exceptions criminally stupid or dishonest, and either way they predictably side with the tyrants who are dismantling America. (just look at dogmatic social security recipients, i.e. THE AARP agenda. What more proof of blind stupidity do you need?) If SS recipients are "Good Catholics" then military pensioners are "bishops and priests". Both groups can't wait to show the "Vatican" the absurd lengths they'll go to swallow anything they're fed if it means their checks keep coming, even to the point of unhinging their jaws like snakes to accommodate large portions of govt horse shit.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-25   3:46:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#260. To: RickyJ (#242)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   8:08:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#261. To: AGAviator (#171)

continue to note with every post that Noam Chomsky states the 911 CT's take discourse into unproductive territories, which is why they're not seriously suppressed by the PTB.

Interesting.

And its easy to plant some absurd "theories" to discredit the discourse.

"Satan / Cheney in "08" Just Foreign Policy Iraqi Death Estimator

tom007  posted on  2010-07-25   8:53:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#262. To: IRTorqued (#170)

there you go using words AGovshill and bucky won't understand, again. their school girl tears will be a deluge which in past cases have washed away entire threads. with the amount tooth gnashing they've done they will have but bony gums by tomorrow.

"their school girl tears will be a deluge which in past cases have washed away entire threads." LOL! You're on a roll my friend.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   9:05:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#263. To: IRTorqued (#178)

hey bucky thanks for the new tag line.

the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

That is a fine tagline. I had noticed that too and thought someone should jump on that. Good for you.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   9:08:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#264. To: wudidiz, Cynicom, christine (#185)

Cyni, People are free to block the thread and/or any posters they don't like. Picture how many posts there would be if not for the 9/11 posts.

You make good points. Another thing to consider, now that buck and aggravator have found out that all they have to do is post endless references about their homoerotic fantasies and other vulgarities they can get threads locked which the government would rather people not talk about. And people can ignore the threads if they choose. Locking the threads so that they go down the memory hole plays into their hands in my opinion.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   9:12:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#265. To: abraxas (#203)

buckeroo: "... but will anyone research your posts?..."

And the answer is: NO, NOBODY WILL CARE, NOBODY WILL RESEARCH THE POSTS.......only you buck--you are the wind beneath AG's wings.

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   9:21:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#266. To: wudidiz (#217)

"So, now I am a liar, a lamebrain and a dimwit." -- buckeroo, circa 2010-07-16 20:04:00 ET

Ah, very good. Buck is taking stock and admitting his shortcomings. That's the first step, or so they say. He forgot Sterno and Kook Aid guzzler but maybe he can add that on.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   9:24:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#267. To: James Deffenbach, Christine (#264)

Locking the threads so that they go down the memory hole plays into their hands in my opinion.

James...

Experience is the best teacher and a hard taskmaster.

As I stated last night, I have been down this road before. Starting way back with the people that made FR a "success". Without going into detail, there were people that know where the bodies are buried.

With that in mind, the last forum and chat room that I helped to found and maintain became a total failure because the owner refused to maintain control of the forum.

Christine as an example, believes in freedom of speech without limit. While that is a laudable trait, it DOES NOT WORK.

There are two negatives to that belief.

One. Nowhere in organized society is ANYONE allowed to express themselves with vulgar and obscene language. Expressing a view in acceptable language IS FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Expressing ones view in gutter language is acceptable NOWHERE. That is not my opinion, it is a fact that may be discerned by trying it in Church, in your restaurant even at Wal Mart, and you will be hustled out into the street. It is NO different here.

Two. From my experience in a forum failure, endless, mind numbing posting hour after hour destroys the intent of any forum. No one is doing 4um and Christine a "favor" by posting vulgar tirades all day and all nite. That is NOT what the forum was created for. These threads have accomplished one thing, I and others have stopped posting.

The argument for bozoing is a childish cop out that does not work, it only helps those that destroy. Been there, done that, civil management has to be maintained or Christine will be left holding a forum with half a dozen posters before the collapse.

The concept that somehow these threads are helping the forum is totally wrong, good, intelligent people need to rethink something, the 4um is Christines, no one has a right to dominate and destroy.

When I first came here, Christine asked me to refrain from posting on certain threads, I have respected her wishes and we get along fine. That was forum management, her forum, her job and I complied.

Cyni...

Cynicom  posted on  2010-07-25   9:44:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#268. To: Cynicom, buckeroo, turtle (#267) (Edited)

One. Nowhere in organized society is ANYONE allowed to express themselves with vulgar and obscene language. Expressing a view in acceptable language IS FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Expressing ones view in gutter language is acceptable NOWHERE

So let's research just what exactly "vulgar," "obscene," and "gutter language" consist of.

In your paradigm is saying "Go sleep with your boyfriend" acceptable, and a reply "Go fuck yourself, little faggot wannabe" ***vulgar?***

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   11:15:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#269. To: Eric Stratton, buckeroo (#212)

the liar movement is once again relying on smoke and mirrors.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   14:00:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#270. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#245)

Careful there - you might throw your elbow out patting yourself on the back.

Once again you demonstrate your willingness to twist and distort the data to suit your distorted misrepresentations.

A Commercial Pilot's Certificate DOES NOT convey at certification the ability or right to Pilot a multi-pilot Airliner. While it does convey the right to be a co-pilot on most major airlines an Airline Transport Pilot License is the norm AND IS REQUIRED to sit as Pilot and Captain. It is a considerably higher rating and requires a minimum of 1,500 hours of flight time logged on flights of greater than 50 NM and has a night flying and instrument requirement as well. A Commercial Pilots Certificate, while conveying the ability to fly for pay on a LIMITED level, DOES NOT CONVEY A LICENSCE TO FLY AN AIRLINER and as such is A LEARNER'S PERMIT to learn to fly one and to accumulate the hours necessary to qualify for an Airline Transport Pilot License which is what is required to set in the Pilot Seat of a multi-pilot Airliner. Your attempt to misrepresent Hanjour's qualifications to inflate them beyond their level is simply an attempt to confuse and to obscure the fact that by all accounts Hanjour was an INCOMPETENT.

From your own link:

(b) Limitations. (1) A person who applies for a commercial pilot certificate with an airplane category or powered-lift category rating and does not hold an instrument rating in the same category and class will be issued a commercial pilot certificate that contains the limitation, The carriage of passengers for hire in (airplanes) (powered-lifts) on cross-country flights in excess of 50 nautical miles or at night is prohibited. The limitation may be removed when the person satisfactorily accomplishes the requirements listed in 61.65 of this part for an instrument rating in the same category and class of aircraft listed on the person's commercial pilot certificate.

Hanjour met none of the requirements for an Airline Transport Pilot's License and given his poor command of English it is doubtful that he truly met the requirements for the Commercial Pilot's Certificate.

Further we know from every reliable witness testimony from his schools and instructors, including his attempt to rent a single engine Cessna for which he was turned down THREE TIMES, that Hanjour WAS INCOMPETENT as a pilot.

We also know that he HAD NEVER sat behind the stick on a Jet Aircraft OF ANY KIND. The largest aircraft he is ever known to have flown is a Piper Apache Twin Engine Propeller Driven 4 seater.

Your attempts to misrepresent Hanjour's Licensing and Qualifications amount to nothing more than an attempt to inflate and overstate his abilities and qualifications as a pilot.

The bottom line is that Hanjour had never under any circumstances flown a jet aircraft whether single or multi-engine, was not qualified or licensed to fly a Jetliner, and by all evidences from witness testimony of his instructors likely should never have been given a Commercial rating in the first place as he was incompetent as a pilot and his command of English was insufficient to meet the criteria stipulated for the rating.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   14:11:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#271. To: Original_Intent, abraxas (#238)

Lying seems to be part of the "debunker" mentality. Their patron un-saint "The Less Than Amazing Randi" and the Septical Inquirer crowd have been caught more than once. Their mindset also seems to be "The Champions of Official Orthodoxy" whatever the current official orthodoxy is. The debunkers have made more twists and turns than a corkscrew. Every time the "received" wisdom from the Holy Establishment changes their opinion immediately changes with it - "and that's the way it's been forever".I have little patience for them because "the lights are on but there is nobody home". They do not think they regurgitate. And because it is either a fixation or something that they are, in some cases, paid to believe the likelihood of their ever waking up is vanishingly small. Still they are useful for one thing and that is making us think and to refine our understanding of the facts. We do have a couple of advantages over them though. The truth is the basic fundamental isness and is the reality and because of that their lies have to constantly be repeated over and over and over to keep them in place whereas the truth just is. The other advantage we have is that we can be wrong a thousand times and still be right as it only takes "1" incontrovertable fact to show that what they are pushing is a lie whereas they cannot admit error even once or else their entire edifice of lies crumbles.

this is why they are the liar movement, they are complete factaphobics. with the one exception referenced in my tag line.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   14:14:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#272. To: AGAviator (#268)

You have nothing to say against the fact that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition. Not one bit of evidence from you, yet you still cling to your fantasies that is just fell down due to minor damage and a few small fires. No wonder you have to try to divert this thread to language usage, because you surely can't defend your belief the government told the truth about WTC 7.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   14:19:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#273. To: buckeroo, Samuel Gray, Original_Intent, IRTorqued, wudidiz, abraxas, James Deffenbach, Rotara, christine, ALL (#93)

Ah, behind my back, you have to start lying about what I've said in order to feel you've "won" the debate, eh?

Your dishonesty here is epic.

The fabled conspiracies keep rattling around without facts or witnesses... I think it is all BS. FormerLurker created a thread about FLT77 BRIEF WHILE BACK about the cabin door proving that Hanjour couldn't have done his dirty deeds. FL was BUSTED.

WRONG. I posted an article which reported the findings of independent reseachers that Flight 77's FDR data provided by the NTSB through a FOIA request indicated that the cabin door had not been opened during the entire flight.

You brought up the possibility that the FDR was not wired to collect the FLT DECK DOOR parameter, but you never provided any proof that was true. It IS listed as a valid parameter in the aircraft's maintenance manual, but it isn't clear if that manual covers all variants of the 757, so it is STILL uncertain if that data was actually collected, but it is NOT proven one way or the other if it was in fact collected, it is still UNKNOWN.

FL also claimed that Hanjour did not have pilot credentials based on the FAA structure and requirements. FL was busted.

Wrong. I questioned the validity of any such credential, since Hanjour did NOT have the qualifications to legitimately have one. I simply asked you to provide a copy of said credentials, since I didn't believe he would actually have a valid FAA certificate, but ok, you found a copy of it and posted it.

THEN, by looking up the name he used on those credentials, where he used the last name HANJOOR rather than HANJOUR, I discovered a mother-lode of well researched facts and testimony concerning his qualifications, or lack of them.

I posted that information to you, and invited you to discuss that evidence, instead, you posted pages and pages of vulgarities, and simply ignored every documented fact I posted.

FL has claimed that everyone under the Sun but any terrorists created demolitions of the WTC ... to include all government officials that day. FL has no proof.

You are a liar. I've never said "everyone under the sun" "created" demolitions of the WTC, in fact, I provided evidence that the elevators were serviced weeks prior to 9/11, and THAT would have been a perfect opportunity to plant explosives within the cores of the towers.

As far as who was responsible for that and who planned the operation, I've never said "all governement officials", I've said it was more than likely an international consortium who was behind it, which included high level officials within our own government.

It's obvious that this government is NOT trying to find out what happened, and IS actively issuing disinformation in regards to the events which unfolded that day. It's not those 19 angry arabs who "hated us for our freedoms" that would have the power to do that, nor did they have the ability to order several war games that very morning which simulated hijacked aircraft on FAA and NORAD screens, confusing the actual hijackings with simulated blips.

This continuing speculation and silly behaviour has gone on too long. It is time to slap the speculators into reasonable sanity with FACTS

You didn't even understand the basics of how buildings fall in terms of how an object drops through thin air, yet I provided you the basic fundamentals of such, only to see you continuously demand physics and math, which you obviously can't understand and claim is BS, although any reasonably intelligent high school student would understand it and know it to be true.

Yes, you are truly a piece of work there bucko, keep up the shilling, I'm sure you'll make a lot of friends that way.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   14:38:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#274. To: IRTorqued (#269)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   14:38:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#275. To: Cynicom, AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, ALL (#268)

Likes like AG is DETERMINED to pull this thread down into the gutter, no matter WHAT.

Hey buck, blame your pal if this thread get's locked, not your victims.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   14:57:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#276. To: Eric Stratton (#274)

Funny, kinda like the last bunch of Administrations.

going back for sixty plus years any way. they all bank on the thirds theorem in that a third will believe any thing they tell them and another third won't care one way or another and then they try to play off the other third (who know the government and its shills are lying thieves) as a minority unworthy of mention.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   14:58:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#277. To: HOUNDDAWG (#259)

The simple fact is govt loyalists are of such low moral character that they shouldn't even be permitted to vote. They are with few exceptions criminally stupid or dishonest, and either way they predictably side with the tyrants who are dismantling America. (just look at dogmatic social security recipients, i.e. THE AARP agenda. What more proof of blind stupidity do you need?) If SS recipients are "Good Catholics" then military pensioners are "bishops and priests". Both groups can't wait to show the "Vatican" the absurd lengths they'll go to swallow anything they're fed if it means their checks keep coming, even to the point of unhinging their jaws like snakes to accommodate large portions of govt horse shit.

You remind me of a witticism I saw, might have Ambrose Bierce, defining a pensioner as a "Kept Patriot".

However, their persistence in accepting and furthering lies and disinformation goes above and beyond the call of silence on government crimes. They have traveled over into the dark side of actual disloyalty, even treason, in defending the crimes of criminals in government positions. These types always seem to forget that key phrase in the oath we all swore who served - "all enemies foreign and domestic". Of course they are probably as clueless about the definition of domestic as they are on many other topics.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   15:05:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#278. To: AGAviator, Cynicom, buckaroo, turtle (#268)

Why are you speaking to Cyni like that? He has never been vulgar in any way to you. Not once. What will your feeble excuse be this time since "he did it first" won't work?

In your paradigm, you lash out at anybody with no regard because you perceive your fragile little ego has been bruised and everytime you claim you are justified.

The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   15:05:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#279. To: IRTorqued (#276)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   15:06:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#280. To: abraxas (#278)

The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.

AG's and buck's strategy is to hurl rocks and bricks at their victims, then when their victim punches each one of the them in the face, they cry foul and say "see", he started it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   15:09:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#281. To: FormerLurker (#275)

it is as if their handlers have realized the people aren't falling for their past string of tales and have advised their shills to kill the discussion in any manner needed to keep the official fairy tale from being completely eroded. they fear the third who currently do not care may just start caring which would without fail lead to the ousting of the oligarchy they have spent the past six plus decades to install.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   15:10:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#282. To: Eric Stratton (#279)

maybe.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   15:13:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#283. To: IRTorqued (#281)

it is as if their handlers have realized the people aren't falling for their past string of tales and have advised their shills to kill the discussion in any manner needed to keep the official fairy tale from being completely eroded. they fear the third who currently do not care may just start caring which would without fail lead to the ousting of the oligarchy they have spent the past six plus decades to install.

Thing is, it becomes clear that IS what they are trying to do, and people begin to wonder WHY would people go to that degree of effort if there WERE nothing to it...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   15:14:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#284. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#270)

From your own link:

(b) Limitations.

A commercial pilot's license is not a learner's permit.

A commercial pilot license does authorize a pilot to be a pilot in command for a sinble aircraft engine - remember saying he couldn't even fly a single engine airplnane, huh? - and a co pilot on a multi pilot aircraft.

Once again, contrary to your claims, you are WRONG, and once again you try to move the goalposts after your statement is debunked.

Additional type certifications can and are completed on ground school, simulators and other methods than getting direct instruction from a right seater.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   15:25:49 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#285. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#272)

You have nothing to say against the fact that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition

I don't have to say anything. I post links that blow your theories to hell.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   15:28:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#286. To: abraxas, Cynicom (#278)

The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.

Since I have been posting here I can't recall even one time when Cynicom was ever vulgar to anyone. Not saying he hasn't been but that I haven't seen it (and I doubt he has been).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   15:30:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#287. To: FormerLurker, abraxas, christine, IRTorqued, wudidiz, Cadet D, Eric Stratton, RickyJ, Kamala, AllTheKingsHorses, farmfriend, Critter, HOUNDDAWG, Anyone Who Cares About the Truth, all (#280)

The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.

AG's and buck's strategy is to hurl rocks and bricks at their victims, then when their victim punches each one of the them in the face, they cry foul and say "see", he started it.

Like much of what they do it is the classic signature of a Disinformation Operative - whether they work for the government, a PR firm, or are simply weak minded enough to believe uncategorically every utterance of a government PR Flack or talking head in the controlled media, or "The Less Than Amazing Randi" (who likely is part of CIA's Operation Mockingbird).

Here are a few of their favorite things:

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.

The point FL was making i.e., the constant whining about name calling etc., the very tactic they constantly use in attempting to degrade and upset anyone not supporting the "Official Conspiracy Theory™".

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

Another constant ploy - regardless of the firmness and references supporting a datum they will deny it extists etc., ....

12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.

Done all the time by the Liar's Movement as they are constantly seeking to create confusion with superficially logical sounding objections - which upon closer examination fall apart.

13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual material fact.

Routine for them. Taking one fact, again the Commercial Pilot's License serves as an example. Taking the fact that Hanjour/Hanjoor had somehow managed to get a Commercial license reasoning backwards he becomes an honorary member of Baron Von Richtoften's Flying Circurs and a wizard behind controls of a size and type of plane which he had never flown.

15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.

They do this all the time by using their pre-written cut and paste counter arguments either from "debunker" web sites or from, I presume, a cut and paste file of counters that have been developed over time to attack points of the arguments favoring complicity at the highest levels.

16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.

While they do not do this directly or personally they do rely upon it as the pool of key witnesses who have testified to evidence directly contradictory to the "Official Fairy Tale™" start dying e.g., Barry Jennings.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

This one is thrown out under cover on a frequent basis - such as attempting to divert from the evidence that Hanjour was an incompetent pilot by shouting that he had a Commercial Pilot Certificate and then acting as if somehow that conveyed the ability to do aerobatics in a Jumbo Jet.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   15:36:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#288. To: FormerLurker, blockquote (#275)

Likes like AG is DETERMINED to pull this thread down into the gutter, no matter WHAT.

Hey buck, blame your pal if this thread get's locked, not your victims.

I am posing a very basic question of whether obscene commentary is considered as vulgar as saying "fuck" especially when saying "fuck" is a direct response to said obscene commentary.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   15:40:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#289. To: James Deffenbach, cynicom (#286)

Since I have been posting here I can't recall even one time when Cynicom was ever vulgar to anyone. Not saying he hasn't been but that I haven't seen it (and I doubt he has been).

I don't recall Cynicom ever being vulgar either. I do recall Cynicom being offended by my language on posts and, of course, I apologized. Out of respect, I toned down on any language Cyni wouldn't approve of within our exchanges.

What Cyni wants........Cyni gets. We didn't have any failure to communicate. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   15:42:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#290. To: Original_Intent (#287)

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

Out of all those they do #9 best. Lots of practice I reckon.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   15:42:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#291. To: abraxas (#289)

I don't recall Cynicom ever being vulgar either. I do recall Cynicom being offended by my language on posts and, of course, I apologized. Out of respect, I toned down on any language Cyni wouldn't approve of within our exchanges.

What Cyni wants........Cyni gets. We didn't have any failure to communicate. : )

I try to post in such a manner that I would not be ashamed for my mother or sister to read the things I post.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   15:44:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#292. To: abraxas, cynicom, buckeroo (#278)

Why are you speaking to Cyni like that? He has never been vulgar in any way to you. Not once. What will your feeble excuse be this time since "he did it first" won't work?

I am asking him a question that includes the f-word.

I am not calling him anything.

You are making a pathetic excuse trying to claim victim status for past exchanges you have started and which I formerly chose to respond my way, not yours.

You are off topic and lose.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   15:45:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#293. To: AGAviator (#288)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-25   15:50:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#294. To: AGAviator, Cynicom (#292)

I am not calling him anything.

THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

Cyni finds foul language offensive. Do you think you can grasp that simple concept and show some respect for other posters on this forum?

Nobody is playing victim save yourself. Show some respect for posters who do not engage in foul language. If you had a shred of decency you would step up and apologize to Cyni.....but we both know you don't. You never fail to demonstrate how disgusting self centered and ego centric can be.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   15:51:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#295. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, christine, wudidiz, abraxas, Critter, IRTorqued, all (#284)

From your own link:

(b) Limitations.

A commercial pilot's license is not a learner's permit.

A commercial pilot license does authorize a pilot to be a pilot in command for a sinble aircraft engine - remember saying he couldn't even fly a single engine airplnane, huh? - and a co pilot on a multi pilot aircraft.

Once again, contrary to your claims, you are WRONG, and once again you try to move the goalposts after your statement is debunked.

Additional type certifications can and are completed on ground school, simulators and other methods than getting direct instruction from a right seater.

How charming. Caught in your disinformational inflation of Hanjour's/Hanjoor's abilities and qualifications as a pilot you are now trying to wiggle out of the trap of your own devising.

As far as flying a Jet Airliner a Commercial Pilot's Certificate IS a Learner's Permit. It does not convey a license to fly a multi-engine Jumbo Jet using a Pilot and Co-Pilot. The most it conveys, and only if someone is willing to hire him for it (HA!) is to sit in the Co-Pilot's seat.

And the evidence and record of testimony is quite clear - HE WAS TURNED DOWN THREE TIMES on the rental of a single engine Cessna 172 because in the opinion of the instructor checking him out he was not capable enough to fly it alone. Twist and turn as you might that is documented in testimony.

As for any other certifications there is nothing in evidence showing that he had any. I presume you have something which documents any other certifications (saving a single engine VFR license which he had to have prior to the botched Commercial Certification)?

I didn't think so.

We have been over and over and over this territory. Hanjoor/Hanjour has been repeatedly characterized in testimony, and in interviews, as INCOMPETENT as a pilot, your cavils and quibbles and diversions do not change that FACT.


Link: Al-Qaeda's Top Gun ...

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   15:55:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#296. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas (#291) (Edited)

I try to post in such a manner that I would not be ashamed for my mother or sister to read the things I post.

Evidently you've never heard my mother or sister when they're really pissed off. :-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   15:57:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#297. To: Original_Intent (#296)

Evidently you've never hear my mother or sister when they're really pissed off. :-)

No, I haven't.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   16:10:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#298. To: AGAviator (#285) (Edited)

Wow, did everybody see that fire in that window? I know it was hard to see, and many times you couldn't see it at all, but if the camera was moved just right you could see a fire in one of the windows! Golly gee, I guess that caused a 47 story building to come straight down. Maybe they should have made the building better and able to withstand hurricane force winds. Oh, but they did build it to withstand hurricane force winds. LOL! Again you have nothing but a puff of smoke and a trash can fire. That is not evidence supporting the collapse of a 47 story steel framed building.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   16:20:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#299. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#295) (Edited)

As far as flying a Jet Airliner a Commercial Pilot's Certificate IS a Learner's Permit. It does not convey a license to fly a multi-engine Jumbo Jet using a Pilot and Co-Pilot.

Wrong as usual.

A "Learners Permit" is an off-the-wall goofball term you have just invented to try to avoid being wrong on claiming that Hanjour was not a pilot.

There is no such term in aviation as a "Learners Permit."

The correct license for a "Learner's Permit" is called a "Student Pilot" which Hanjour was clearly not at the time.

He was authorized as a pilot in command in a Single Engine Aircraft, and a Co- Pilot in Multi Engine Aircraft. The fact that he may have been required to take additional type class training, such as operating landing gear or operating a seaplane for Single Engine, or being type certified for Multi Engine, does not take away from his pilot status.

You are debunked and pwned.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   16:31:13 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#300. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#298)

So you want to see more fires?

Keep jumping around from wanting to see structural to wanting to see fires - whatever is not shown that's where you want to shift the discussion to?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   16:38:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#301. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#299)

Still engaging in evading the point I see.

I am not going to mince details and join you in hair-splitting.

Hanjour/Hanjoor was by all credible evidence INCOMPETENT as a pilot, who spoke broken English (thus making his Commercial Certificate, to say the least, questionable).

Why don't you argue the point with the author of this article: Al-Qaeda's Top Gun ... - after all he only included fifty-some odd foot notes. I am sure you can find a few microscopic points to distort and quibble over.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   16:39:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#302. To: FormerLurker (#273)

Who is Barry Jennings ?

This seems to be such an inconvenient question that ultimately buckles and AGitprop supposedly put me on their filter. LOL !


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-25   16:45:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#303. To: RickyJ (#298)

Wow, did everybody see that fire in that window?

No, that was the One Meridien Plaza Fire, burned for not 18 minutes or even 80 minutes but EIGHTEEN HOURS. And it didn't fall. hmmm.

Maybe it was this one?

No, not that one either. That was The First Interstate Bank Fire (Los Angeles). Burned for 3 and 1/2 hours. Didn't fall down. (In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans.)

Maybe this is the one.

No, foiled again. Despite being a much longer lasting fire and obviously far more extensive The Beijing Mandarin Oriental Hotel didn't get tired and fall down.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   16:46:40 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#304. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#295) (Edited)

Hanjoor/Hanjour has been repeatedly characterized in testimony, and in interviews, as INCOMPETENT as a pilot

I have never said Hanjour was a good pilot.

It is your need to call Hanjour an alleged good pilot, so you can then claim that showing he was not a good pilot, disproves he was a hijacker.

I have repeatedly and consistently said Hanjour was a marginal pilot who let his airplane get away from him and ended up hitting a reinforced, mostly empty, part of the Pentagon that did little or no damage to US interests, at an oblique angle which did not even maximize the possible damage from the impact.

As the flight school instructors state explicitly, Hanjour had trouble on takeoffs and landings and English, none of which he needed to do, but nevertheless they had no doubt that he did know enough to take over an airplane mid flight and crash it.

Consistent with the Half Truther MO, you ignore that section of the flight school interview.

At the time of impact Hanjour's aircraft was banking with the starboard engine hitting the 2nd story and the port engine hitting barely above the ground. This was not a "precision pilot maneuver."

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   16:52:15 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#305. To: James Deffenbach (#303)

Oakland Bridge Steel Melts from Gasoline Tanker Fire

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   16:55:40 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#306. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#301) (Edited)

I am sure you can find a few microscopic points to distort and quibble over

You're the one who keeps shifting the goalposts and making up goofball definitions.

Hanjour was a marginal pilot. But he was a licensed pilot.

His reviewers at the private flight school correctly saw his marginality and refused to put their own aircraft on the line renting to him. Good for them.

However they explicitly and clearly say he was capable of taking over a hijacked plane and crashing it.

That is the only "qualification" that is relevant for Hanjour.

He did not need to speak English, he did not need to take off, and he did not need to land.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   17:00:57 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#307. To: James Deffenbach, RickyJ, buckeroo (#303) (Edited)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   17:02:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#308. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#304)

It is your need to call Hanjour an alleged good pilot, so you can then claim that showing he was not a good pilot, disproves he was a hijacker.

LOL!

Have I made any such claim?

No.

Can you even prove he was on the airplane?

No.

It is simply one datum among many that taken together make the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" uncredible.

While you will not admit it as such what has been demonstrated is that Hanjour/Hanjoor was NOT a competent pilot. That one datum becomes significant when compared against datums of comparable magnitude such as the very tight and skilled maneuvers which Flight 77 went through in its approach on the Pentagram. As well it was a demonstration that whoever was flying that plane knew how to navigate and operate the avionics on a 757. As well is the datum that the one spot on the Pentagram that was hit was the one guaranteed to do the least physical damage while "coincidentally" destroying records, and killing people, who were undertaking an audit to locate the 2.3 TRILLION dollars that disappeared under Dov Zakheim's watch. Just a few of the funny "coincidences" eh? Amazing how many coincidences occurred that day - like the "coincidence" of the 5 Dancing Israelis filming and high fiving over the collapse of the Twin Towers. All kinds of little coincidences. Just like the amazing coincidence that the surveillance cameras for all 4 airline boarding ramps "malfunctioned", or that NONE of the 8 pilots on 4 aircraft tapped out the 4 digit hijack code, or transmitted anything indicating something was amiss. Amazing coincidences.

You are simply trying to isolate on that one datum while avoiding how it fits into the larger picture as one datum among many. You are, as usual, engaging in a disinformation tactic and attempting to make of that one datum, among many, Mt. Everest.

I have achieved what I set out to do - illustrate how you were engaging in dissembling and disinformation. And it should be clear to anyone, except a paid shill, that Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor was not capable of performing the observed maneuvers of Flight 77.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   17:54:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#309. To: AGAviator (#307)

No, not debunked. A four story building is not a high rise and wasn't made with with special high-strength steel like the WTC towers were. The WTC towers were made to handle 2000% more than their stated load bearing capacity. All high rises are over engineered on purpose. That's why none of them have ever come down due to fires. The WTC towers didn't come down due to fires either, they were demolished floor by floor.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-25   17:54:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#310. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#308)

It is your need to call Hanjour an alleged good pilot, so you can then claim that showing he was not a good pilot, disproves he was a hijacker. LOL!

Have I made any such claim?

No.

Can you even prove he was on the airplane?

I know it's hard to keep track of your lies when you contantly have to change your story, but it's all there on the server and readily searchable.

Not only did you say Hanjour didn't have a license, you said he was supposed to have flown an airplane on the level of the Red Baron. That is simply one version of events by people who were not present and did not carefully track the movements of the craft on its way to crashing into rear parking-lot facing wall of an empty section of the Pentagon.

Link

By all credible accounts and testimony from people who actually knew him, and were qualified to judge, Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot and to such a degree that he was turned down for rental of a single engine Cessna. And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane.), Get real.

Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-21 14:28:40 ET

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   18:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#311. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#306)

However they explicitly and clearly say he was capable of taking over a hijacked plane and crashing it.

That is the only "qualification" that is relevant for Hanjour.

He did not need to speak English, he did not need to take off, and he did not need to land.

I do so love your logic chopping and unsupported assertions and conclusions.

Being able to crash an aircraft does not mean being able to navigate an aircraft nor does it imply the ability to maneuver the aircraft through some very sophisticated maneuvers. These are all things which are not evidenced in any of the records on Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor. Any incompetent can crash an aircraft, however it takes somewhat more skill than any ever evidenced by Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor to crash it precisely into a predetermined spot.

And so we can see from the observed events qualifications required which were not, and are not, in evidence as being among those held by the desultory student pilot, and incompetent pilot which all credible accounts show Mr. Hanjour/Hanjoor to be.

As for the last that is simply a Red Herring intended to draw people off the scent. It is added inapplicable data. Whether he could take off or land is irrelevant in assessing whether he was known to have the skills necessary to perform the maneuvers observed in the flight, approach, and aerobatic performance of Flight 77 as it bypassed an easy straight on approach on one side of the Pentagon, housing all of the Brass, and then went through a series of tightly controlled maneuvers evidencing a high degree of skill and homed in on the one spot guaranteed to do the least damage and get rid of the most inconvenient audit records - along with the auditors.

Again you have been tried in the balance and found wanting.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   18:10:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#312. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#308)

Just like the amazing coincidence that the surveillance cameras for all 4 airline boarding ramps "malfunctioned", or that NONE of the 8 pilots on 4 aircraft tapped out the 4 digit hijack code, or transmitted anything indicating something was amiss. Amazing coincidences

You don't "tap out" transponder code 7500. You set it to that frequency and keep it running.

All hijackers turned off the transponders immediately. They took the pilots by surprise, and knew the hijacking procedure from their own training. Any fast moves by the pilots and I guarantee they would have had their throats slashed immediately. This is what the hijackers were trained to do.

The moment the hijackers turned off transponders the aircraft became almost impossible to track among the thousands of aircraft in the airspace which had their transponders on.

You are just as full of it on your goofball theories of how transponders work as you are on your claims that the pilots couldn't navigate, when all they ahd to do was punch 4 digits into a VORTAC/DME receiver, which would instantly tell them not only heading and course deviation from their target, but also distance in nautical miles.

I have achieved what I set out to do

That would be showing you're an aviation ignoramus who makes things up instead of researches facts.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   18:12:10 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#313. To: Original_Intent (#311)

Any incompetent can crash an aircraft,

As John McCain can verify.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   18:16:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#314. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#311) (Edited)

And get rid of the most inconvenient audit records - along with the auditors.

Show me any evidence evidence of that, then explain how everybody else in the Mother of All Conspiracies has not come forward, but "they" had to whack the Bean Counters.

You continue your uninterrupted fabrication of pure bullfeather accounts originating in your own head and nowhere else..

Again you have been tried in the balance and found wanting.

Since it is incumbent on the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and failing that, the case is dismissed, it is you who is found wanting.

As usual you make windy grandiose proclamations which only show how lacking you yourself are in basic fact researching, logic, or analytical abilities. Especially pertaining to aviation and structural engineering.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   18:18:44 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#315. To: RickyJ, AGAviator, all (#309)

No, not debunked. A four story building is not a high rise and wasn't made with with special high-strength steel like the WTC towers were. The WTC towers were made to handle 2000% more than their stated load bearing capacity. All high rises are over engineered on purpose. That's why none of them have ever come down due to fires. The WTC towers didn't come down due to fires either, they were demolished floor by floor.

9/11 Un-debunked Version 2.0: The First Steel Framed High-Rise Fire Collapses


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning so far

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   18:20:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#316. To: RickyJ, turtle, buckeroo (#309) (Edited)

A four story building is not a high rise and wasn't made with with special high-strength steel like the WTC towers were.

Irrelevant.

Steel beams have melted from fuel fires, although no one is making that claim with WTC. The claim is made that the WTC fires warped the steel, which happens at far lower temperatures than is needed to melt the steel.

Steel framed buildings have also collapsed due to fire before the WTC buildings collapsed. So claims that steel buildings can't collapse from fires are similarly false.

You lose on both counts.

Quibbling about this building or that building does not invalidate fires melting and weakening steel, or steel buildings collapsing from uncontrolled fires burning inside thetm.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   18:24:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#317. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator, Turtle, buckeroo (#314)

To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle

And get rid of the most inconvenient audit records - along with the auditors.

Show me any evidence evidence of that, then explain how everybody else in the Mother of All Conspiracies has not come forward, but "they" had to whack the Bean Counters.

You continue your uninterrupted fabrication of pure bullfeather accounts originating in your own head and nowhere else..

Again you have been tried in the balance and found wanting.

Since it is incumbent on the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and failing that, the case is dismissed, it is you who is found wanting.

As usual you make windy grandiose proclamations which only show how lacking you yourself are in basic fact researching, logic, or analytical abilities.

This coming from someone that pings Turtle and buckeroo to most of his posts.

lol

AGAviator, this is not a court of law and if it was and not a corrupt one, you'd have been kicked out long ago.


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   18:27:02 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#318. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#316)

The claim is made that the WTC fires warped the steel

The claim is false.


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   18:28:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#319. To: wudidiz (#317)

Show any evidence whatsoever for the claim and cut down your irrelevant asides about people.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   18:30:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#320. To: AGAviator (#319)

Show any evidence whatsoever for the claim

There is no evidence for the claim. That's what makes it false.


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   18:32:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#321. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#310) (Edited)

You are becoming truly amusing. The more frantic you get at splitting hairs the more obvious it becomes that you are trying to do so and in so doing attempting to create a false picture in the mind of anyone reading this thread.

First, as a bit of aside, it seems that it is not within the scope of your intellect to conceive that anyone could look at a set of facts and draw a conclusion beyond that which you are trying to dictate. LOL! No, if someone draws a conclusion different from the one you are trying to force on them of course they have to be lying. Spare me.

By all credible accounts and testimony from people who actually knew him, and were qualified to judge, Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot and to such a degree that he was turned down for rental of a single engine Cessna. And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane.)

And I stand by the comment. As we both know from the evidence introduced that Hanjour was so incompetent that at one point his instructors and I quote: "...As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43..." Source : Al-Qaeda's Top Gun

Also from the same article: "...Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business." 38

Given that, as you indirectly admit that Hanjour/Hanjoor had a poor command of English, and a good command of English is one of the requirements for licensing, it is eminently questionable as to how he was able to secure one at all when that is taken in combination with his known incompetence behind the stick of an aircraft.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   18:33:35 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#322. To: AGAviator, RickyJ, Christine, Original_Intent, HOUNDDAWG, all (#318)

Design Claims

Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson White Paper

A white paper on the structure of the Twin Towers carried out by the firm of Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson contained eleven numbered points, including:

  1. The buildings have been investigated and found to be safe in an assumed collision with a large jet airliner (Boeing 707-DC 8) traveling at 600 miles per hour. Analysis indicates that such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building and would not endanger the lives and safety of occupants not in the immediate area of impact.

--City in the Sky, p 131

Glanz and Lipton summarize the findings of the white paper:

The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers' calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.
--City in the Sky, p 133

The Richard Roth Telegram

A telegraph from the architectural firm Richard Roth, partner at Emery Roth & Sons, was distributed to reporters on February 14, 1965. The telegraph was in response to claims by real estate baron and Lawrence Wien that the design of the Twin Towers was unsound.

THE STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS CARRIED OUT BY THE FIRM OF WORTHINGTON, SKILLING, HELLE & JACKSON IS THE MOST COMPLETE AND DETAILED OF ANY EVER MADE FOR ANY BUILDING STRUCTURE. THE PRELIMINARY CALCULATIONS ALONE COVER 1,200 PAGES AND INVOLVE OVER 100 DETAILED DRAWINGS.
...
4. BECAUSE OF ITS CONFIGURATION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THAT OF A STEEL BEAM 209' DEEP, THE TOWERS ARE ACTUALLY FAR LESS DARING STRUCTURALLY THAN A CONVENTIONAL BUILDING SUCH AS THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WHERE THE SPINE OR BRACED AREA OF THE BUILDING IS FAR SMALLER IN RELATION TO ITS HEIGHT.
...
5. THE BUILDING AS DESIGNED IS SIXTEEN TIMES STIFFER THAN A CONVENTIONAL STRUCTURE. THE DESIGN CONCEPT IS SO SOUND THAT THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER HAS BEEN ABLE TO BE ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE IN HIS DESIGN WITHOUT ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ECONOMICS OF THE STRUCTURE. ...
--City in the Sky, p 134-6

Engineering News Record

The Engineering News Record (ENR) contained a number of articles on the design and construction of the World Trade Center. The article "How Columns Will Be Designed for 110-Story Buildings" quotes lead architect John Skilling:

"live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than 2000% before failure occurs."
--John Skilling, in Engineering News Record, 4/2/1964


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   18:39:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#323. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, IRTorqued, Critter, all (#317)

AGAviator, this is not a court of law and if it was and not a corrupt one, you'd have been kicked out long ago.

You must admit though that he is quite amusing. Each time one of his split hairs is swept off the table he either denies it or invents a new one. He is rather inventive in a dull and plodding Plow Horse kind of way.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   18:40:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#324. To: wudidiz (#322)

A very interesting reference. I think I've seen parts of it quoted in other articles but it is nice to have a fuller more robust reference.

I think this is where the Shills go back into the "Fruitloop" and restate an already disproved disinfo claim. Maybe their "1" "expert" Dr. Rent-a-Prof Eager who will not document, nor publicly defend his claims.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   18:50:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#325. To: Original_Indent, BUCKEROO (#321)

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   18:51:40 ET  (5 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#326. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, buckeroo, RickyJ, All (#306)

He did not need to speak English,

Yes he did, in order to successfully complete the FAA exam, and to understand and speak with air traffic controllers over the radio. It is an FAA requirement that a pilot speak, understand, read, and write English. That's what makes it suspicious that he somehow obtained both a private pilot's license and commercial license with his extremely poor language skills, especially since he lacked the skills and abilities required to actually fly an airplane.

he did not need to take off

He needed to be able to do that in order to obtain any sort of pilot's license. That he couldn't yet somehow got his license, raises serious questions as to the abilities of pilots flying the skies of America to this day. That, or it indicates he had some "help" getting those credentials from high level officials.

, and he did not need to land.

He ALSO would have needed to be able to land in order to obtain the FAA certifications that he possessed, yet he COULDN'T land a Cessna properly.

HOWEVER, and this is a BIG HOWEVER, whoever flew the alleged Flight 77 into the Pentagon DID virtually land the aircraft, as the aircraft had somehow descended to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph over the Pentagon lawn, and hit the wall with the aircraft level, all without even touching the lawn.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   18:54:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#327. To: Original_Intent (#324)

The World Trade Center Building Designers: Pre-9/11 claims strongly implicate Towers should have remained standing on 9/11


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-25   18:58:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#328. To: AGAviator, ALL (#325)

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

by Jeremy R. Hammond / April 18th, 2010

Hani Hanjour is the hijacker who flew American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001, according to the official account of terrorist attacks. "The lengthy and extensive flight training obtained by Hani Hanjour throughout his years in the United States makes it reasonable to believe that he was the pilot of Flight 77 on September 11," concluded FBI Director Robert S. Mueller.1 The story is that while Hanjour had difficulties learning to fly at first, he persevered, overcame his obstacles, and became an extraordinary enough pilot to be able to precisely hit his target after performing a difficult flight maneuver.

The New York Times, for instance, asserted that "Mr. Hanjour overcame the mediocrity of his talents as a pilot and gained enough expertise to fly a Boeing 757 into the Pentagon."2 The Washington Post similarly suggested Hanjour had the requisite skills, reporting that "Federal records show that a Hani Hanjoor obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 with a rating to fly commercial jets."3

The 9/11 Commission expanded upon this narrative in its final report. It noted that Hanjour first came to the United States in 1991 to study English, then again in 1996 "to pursue flight training, after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia." In 1997, after returning to Arizona, he "began his flight training there in earnest. After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot’s license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April 1999."4

Subsequently, "Hanjour reportedly applied to the civil aviation school in Jeddah after returning home, but was rejected." By the end of 2000, Hanjour was back in the U.S. and "began refresher training at his old school, Arizona Aviation. He wanted to train on multi-engine planes, but had difficulties because his English was not good enough. The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001."5 A footnote in the report asserts that Hanjour was chosen specifically for targeting the Pentagon because he was "the operation’s most experienced pilot."6

John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well-conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.

As the Los Angeles Times ironically put it, "For someone suspected of steering a jetliner into the Pentagon, the 29- year-old man who used the name Hani Hanjour sure convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly."19

The Legend Unraveled

According to an FBI chronology for Hani Hanjour cited by the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour first travelled to the U.S. in 1991 on a visa issued in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor", in order to attend the University of Arizona’s Center for English as a Second Language. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he was again issued a visa at Jeddah in March, 1996. Back in the U.S., he attended classes at the ELS Language Center in Oakland, California from May until August. For a week in September, he took ground training lessons at the Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center (SAAATC). From the end of September until mid-October, he purchased flight instruction from Cockpit Resources Management (CRM) in Scottsdale, Arizona. He then returned to Saudi Arabia once more.20 The Washington Post reported that according to Hanjour’s brother, Yasser, "Hanjour applied for a job at the state- owned Saudi Arabian Airlines but was told that he lacked sufficient grades.... He said the company told him it would reconsider his application only if he acquired a commercial pilot’s license in the United States."21 Yasser characterized Hanjour "as a frustrated young Saudi who wanted desperately – but never succeeded – to become a pilot for the Saudi national airline."22

Hanjour made plans to return to the U.S. and was issued a third visa in Jeddah in November 1997. His visa application contained red flags that should have resulted in his visa being denied. He failed to write in the name and address of the school he would be attending and provided no proof, as required by law, that he could furnish financial support for himself.23 With that application accepted, he reentered the U.S. and took pilot training from CRM again in December.24

It was at this time that, according the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour began his training "in earnest". But in reality, while at CRM, Hanjour never finished coursework required to get his certificate to be able to fly a single-engine aircraft.25 The New York Times reported that "he was a lackadaisical student who often cut class and never displayed the passion so common among budding commercial airline pilots."26 ABC News reported that when he returned to CRM that December, "He was trying for his private pilot’s license", but according to one of his instructor’s, he "was a very poor student who skipped homework and missed flights."27 The school’s attorney said that when Hanjour reapplied again later in 2000, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn’t think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997."28 The school’s owner described him as a "weak student" who "was wasting our resources."29 He said, "One of the first accomplishments of someone in flight school is to fly a plane without an instructor. It is a confidence-building procedure. He managed to do that. That is like being able to pull a car out and drive down the street. It is not driving on the freeway." Although it normally took three months for students to earn their private pilot’s certificate, Hanjour "did not accomplish that at my school." He added, "We didn’t want him back at our school because he was not serious about becoming a good pilot."30 The Chicago Tribune reported that at CRM, "A flight instructor said Hanjour left an impression by being unimpressive. ‘He was making weak progress,’ said Duncan Hastie, president of CRM."31

Hanjour switched schools, and from the end of December 1997 until April 1999, took flight lessons from Arizona Aviation in Mesa, Arizona.24 There, too, the 9/11 Commission’s own evidence contradicts the characterization that Hanjour was training "in earnest". An FBI document cited by the Commission stated that "Hanjour often participated in flying lessons for a one to two weeks [sic] and then would disappear for weeks or months at a time." The school "often had to call Hanjour in an effort to get Hanjour to pay his bill."32

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32

In April 1998, Hanjour applied for his private pilot certificate with a single-engine rating, but he failed his test. One of the tasks documents show he would need to be reexamined for was "coordinated turns to headings"34 He tried again later that same month and this time received his private pilot certificate under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor," with an "Airplane Single Engine Land" rating.

In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin- engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single- engine Cessna and twin-engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39

Additionally, commercial pilot certification is different from the Airline Transport Pilot certification held by airline captains. To obtain a commercial certificate with a multi-engine rating, Hanjour only needed to log in 250 hours of flight time, whereas to obtain an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, pilots are required to log 1,500 hours.40 Needless to say, having the ability to control a Cessna 172 or Piper Apache propeller plane does not translate into the ability to handle a Boeing 757 jetliner – and Hanjour could barely do the former.

Anyone unfamiliar with pilot certification could easily make the mistake of thinking a "commercial pilot license" meant Hanjour was qualified to fly a jet airliner, a conclusion reinforced by the Washington Post’s false assertion that his certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets." The 9/11 Commission report reinforced that false impression, only vaguely hinting at the truth six paragraphs later by saying that Hanjour subsequently "wanted to train on multi- engine planes". But the Commission then further obfuscated that truth by asserting that this was merely "refresher" training (a matter to which we will return).

Hanjour again left the country on April 28, 1999.24 As the 9/11 Commission report observed, when he returned to Saudi Arabia to apply in the civil aviation school in Jeddah, he was rejected.24 He subsequently began making preparations to return to the U.S. once again.24 In September 2000, Hanjour was denied a student visa after indicating that he wanted to remain in the U.S. for three years, and yet listed no address for where he intended to stay in Arizona.23 But he tried again for a student visa under the name "Hani Hanjour" later that same month. This time, he wrote that he wanted to stay for one year instead of three, and listed a specific address in California, not Arizona, where he said he was going on his first application. Despite these obvious red flags, he was issued the visa.23

He entered the U.S. in December and took more flight lessons that month at Arizona Aviation. From February until mid-March, he attended Pan Am International Flight Academy, also known as Jet Tech International, in Mesa, Arizona.24

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi- engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43

As already discussed, it remains an open question whether Hanjour was actually qualified to hold his commercial pilot certificate. It was at this time, as the Associated Press reported, that "Federal aviation authorities were alerted in early 2001 that an Arizona flight school believed one of the eventual Sept. 11 hijackers lacked the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot’s license he already held, flight school and government officials say."44 The manager of JetTech said, "I couldn’t believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had."45

Whereas the 9/11 Commission suggested that, because he "persevered", Hanjour "completed the initial training", thus leading the public to the conclusion that his skills had advanced accordingly, the Times offered a very different account: "Ultimately administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex- employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. ‘He didn’t care about the fact that he couldn’t get through the course,’ the ex- employee said. Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. ‘I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,’ the former employee said. ‘He could not fly at all.’"43

Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46

According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45

As with the fact that multiple visa applications from Hanjour should have been denied, the 9/11 Commission made no mention of any of this. One would think that a commission tasked with investigating the events of 9/11 with the goal of assessing what went wrong and fixing the system to prevent any loss of life in the future would have looked into who issued Hanjour visas in Jeddah and why the red flags were ignored. One would think that misconduct from FAA officials and contractors that allowed a terrorist to improperly obtain certification to fly a plane would also not be outside of the purview of the investigation – yet the Commission's report is absolutely silent on this.

Turning to the footnote for the claim that Hanjour "completed" training at Jet Tech, one can read (emphasis added): "For his training at Pan Am International Flight Academy and completion by March 2001, see FBI report ‘Hijackers Timeline,’ Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 8, 2001, entries...)". But turning to that source, the FBI timeline does not state that Hanjour "completed" the training, only that he "ended" the course on March 16.47 The truth is that, as the Washington Post reported, "Hanjour flunked out after a month" at Jet Tech.12 Offering corroboration for that account, the Associated Press similarly reported that "Hanjour did not finish his studies at JetTech and left the school."48

The 9/11 Commission additionally noted that Hanjour had later gone to Air Fleet Training Systems in New Jersey and "requested to fly the Hudson Corridor" along the Hudson River, which passed the World Trade Center. He was permitted to fly the route once, "but his instructor declined a second request because of what he considered Hanjour’s poor piloting skills", the Commission admits. However, the report continues, "Shortly thereafter, Hanjour switched to Caldwell Flight Academy in Fairfield, New Jersey, where he rented small aircraft on several occasions during June and July. In one such instance on July 20, Hanjour – likely accompanied by Hazmi – rented a plane from Caldwell and took a practice flight from Fairfield to Gaithersburg, Maryland, a route that would have allowed them to fly near Washington, D.C. Other evidence suggests Hanjour may even have returned to Arizona for flight simulator training earlier in June."49

But here, the pattern of deception continues by omission of other relevant facts. The report does not explain that when Hanjour was permitted to fly the Hudson Corridor in May of 2001, unlike his subsequent rental flights, it was with an instructor on a check ride, and not a solo flight.24 By saying his instructor there "considered" Hanjour’s skills to be poor, the 9/11 Commission implied this was merely a subjective judgment, but that others considered him perfectly capable. Although it would have been a standard practice, there’s no indication from FBI records that Caldwell actually required him to go on a check ride before renting the plane. Even more significantly, the 9/11 Commission omitted altogether the fact that, while Hanjour was allowed to rent from Caldwell Flight Academy, he was rejected yet again by yet another school shortly thereafter that the record shows did require a check ride.

In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single- engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19

The deception does not end with this rather egregious omission. As noted, the 9/11 Commission also suggested that Hanjour obtained further training in a flight simulator, again, in an apparent attempt to exaggerate his training. But a review of the records shows that the preponderance of evidence indicates Hanjour was actually in New Jersey throughout the time period in question in June. FBI records show that on May 31, 2001, after having been rejected at Air Fleet Training Systems, Hanjour rented a Cessna 172 at Caldwell Flight Academy, where he "made an error taxing [sic] the airplane upon his return." On June 6, he rented a single- engine aircraft. The FBI placed him in Paterson, New Jersey, on June 10. Then he rented a plane again on June 11, 18, and 19. The FBI has Hanjour (along with Nawaf Al-Hazmi) obtaining a mailbox at Mailboxes, Etc. in Fort Lee, New Jersey, on June 26, and opening a bank account and making an ATM withdrawal in New Jersey on June 27.53

Somewhere in there, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that "evidence suggests" Hanjour again trained on a simulator in Arizona. To begin with, the simulator at the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix was for small aircraft and was nothing like the cockpit of a Boeing 757 – another fact omitted by the Commission.54 But this perhaps becomes a moot point when one realizes that the evidence shows Hanjour never left New Jersey. Turning to the footnote for this claim, the Commission stated that documents from Sawyer "show Hanjour joining the flight simulator club on June 23, 2001". But, the footnote acknowledges, "the documents are inconclusive, as there are no invoices or payment records for Hanjour, while such documents do exist for the other three" who joined the club at that time. The actual evidence thus demonstrates clearly that while Hanjour may have signed up (something which may have been possible over the phone or via the internet), he did not actually attend. The footnote further acknowledges that "Documentary evidence for Hanjour, however, shows that he was in New Jersey for most of June, and no travel records have been recovered showing that he returned to Arizona after leaving with Hazmi in March."55

The second piece of "evidence" that "suggests" Hanjour took further flight simulator training is a Sawyer employee who "identified Hanjour as being there during that time period, though she was less than 100 percent sure." The FBI document cited in the footnote for that claim was obtained by Intelwire.com, but it is almost entirely redacted, so it’s impossible to verify the actual nature of this eyewitness testimony.56 But another document cited further into the same footnote also refers to the eyewitness from Sawyer, who described the four men who had joined the club. The first "UNSUB" (unidentified subject) was "short and stocky". The second was 5’9"-5’10", 170 pounds, and "medium build". The third was 5’8", 170 pounds, and "medium build". And the fourth was 5’6"-5’7" with a beard and mustache. Other eyewitness descriptions for Hanjour offered in the same FBI document have him as being no more than 5’6" (one witness from Arizona Aviation, the document notes, "confirmed that he was only about 5’0" tall"), 140-150 pounds, and very slight and thin, with short, curly hair. This clearly rules out the first three subjects, leaving only the detail- lacking fourth description as being the only one possibly matching Hanjour’s description. But the details given are far too vague to suggest a positive identification, particularly given the witness’s own admission that she wasn’t sure if it was Hanjour.57

Even more significantly, that same FBI document reveals that it was not during the FBI’s initial interview with the witness that she identified that fourth "unsub" as Hanjour, as the 9/11 Commission report implies by citing the report from the FBI’s initial interview for that claim in the footnote. Rather, it was later, during a second interview that occurred after the names and images of the hijackers had been shown repeatedly in the media that she picked Hanjour’s out of a photo lineup. The FBI summary of that later interview states that according to the witness, Hanjour "has the same general characteristics and is very similar appearing as the person she saw at Sawyer.... However, she could not be 100% sure."57

The third and final piece of "evidence" is another witness who identified Hanjour as being "in the Phoenix area during the summer of 2001", citing the FBI document just discussed, which is redacted enough that this claim cannot be readily verified. But the document does show additionally that Hanjour’s membership was good only from June 23 until August 8, at which time it expired.57

Thus, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that sometime after June 19, Hanjour went from the east coast to Arizona without leaving any paper trail (i.e. airline or car rental records, ATM withdrawals, etc.), signed up for a two-week flight simulator club on June 23 without leaving any record he ever actually paid or even showed up (whereas records did exist for other members), only to change his mind and return again to be back in New Jersey with Nawaf Al-Hazmi three days later. In other words, what the evidence actually suggests is that the eyewitness testimony is unreliable and that, contrary to the Commission’s assertion, Hanjour never left New Jersey during that time.

There is a clear pattern of misleading and untruthful statements in the 9/11 Commission’s final report that cannot be dismissed as mere error. Rather, the evidence is incontrovertible that the Commission willfully and deliberately sought to present a falsified story of the alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour; not to relate the facts to the public, but rather to cement a legend in the public mind; not to investigate and draw conclusions based on the facts, but to start with a conclusion – the official account of 9/11 – and manipulate the facts to suit the government’s own conspiracy theory.

The Fiction Perpetuated

The mainstream media has dealt with the problematic nature of the official story in a number of ways. As already seen, one method has simply been to exaggerate characterizations of Hanjour's competence. The official story as related by the New York Times that Hanjour "overcame the mediocrity of his talents" is not merely unsupportable by the evidence, but stands in stark contrast to the available known facts. The legend is also maintained by the mainstream media through false claims, such as the Washington Post’s assertion that Hanjour’s pilot certificate allowed him to fly commercial jets. While the Los Angeles Times suggested Hanjour "convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly", the underlying assumption of the article was that, despite his apparent ineptitude in the cockpit, he really did know how to fly. The public is apparently supposed to believe that he was merely pretending to an incompetent pilot even though he was actually quite skillful. The mainstream media have a tendency to mock and ridicule anyone who dares even to just question the official narrative, all the while putting forth such utter absurdities as this.

As the evidence surfaced that Hanjour was not the pilot extraordinaire the public was initially told he must have been in order to carry out the attack on the Pentagon, another narrative began to emerge. While most of the mainstream media simply ignored the evidence, or, as in the case of the New York Times, drew conclusions that were contradicted by some of their own reporting. In no small part due to the 9/11 Commission report’s findings, the fiction remained firmly embedded in the minds of the public that Hanjour, through determination and perseverance, overcame all obstacles in order to acquire the skills necessary to pilot Flight 77 into the Pentagon.

There was, however, at least some acknowledgment of the major hole in that theory. A few media reports did acknowledge that Hanjour was a horrible pilot and that all evidence demonstrated that he never "overcame his mediocrity". But rather than calling the official theory into question in doing so, these accounts simply offered a revisionist account in order to maintain the legend.

Gone was the story that the hijackers' "capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial", that the attacks were "conducted in a technically proficient way", that "It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case". No more was the expert opinion that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators", that Flight 77's final maneuver was "a difficult high-speed descending turn". Vanished was the view that Flight 77 "was flown with extraordinary skill", even so that it "reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver", that this was evidence of "a great talent" in the cockpit.

In the place of that conventional wisdom, the new narrative that began to emerge in some accounts was that it really wasn't that difficult a maneuver after all, and even a novice pilot like Hani Hanjour – or anyone who’s ever flown a small aircraft and perhaps spent some time playing a flight simulator game, for that matter – could have, with just a bit of luck, pulled it off.

The New American presented this new narrative by quoting Ronald D. Bull, a retired United Airlines pilot, as saying, "It’s not that difficult, and certainly not impossible." But Bull was apparently not speaking specifically with regard to the Pentagon, as he then added, "If you’re doing a suicide run, like these guys were doing, you’d just keep the nose down and push like the devil." In this case, Bull seems to have had the attacks on the World Trade Center, and not the Pentagon, in mind. Moreover, even if Bull also had the Pentagon in mind, he was obviously only considering a situation where the pilot was flying in a straight line towards his target. Thus, if he was also speaking with regard to the Pentagon, he was quite apparently uninformed as to the actual flight path the plane took.

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."58 It’s true that the Pentagon was a very big target. But Williams was apparently similarly aware, when he was asked to comment, of the plane’s final descending maneuver; or of the fact that this maneuver put the plane on a path that reduced the margin to a mere 26.5 feet (a few feet lower, the plane crashes into the ground; a few feet higher, the plane overshoots the target); or that the plane wasn't flying at a constant airspeed, but was rather accelerating rapidly, thus creating more lift that needed compensating for with subtle precision in order to stay within that margin for error; or that the plane wasn't just ambling along at something near landing speed, but was screaming along at an incredible 530 mph. To put that into perspective, cruising speed for airliners is about 600 mph at 30,000 feet of altitude, where the air is less dense. At sea-level that would be equivalent to about 300 mph hour, about double safe landing speed. A velocity of 530 mph at sea-level would be supersonic speed if it were possible to maintain at cruising altitude.59

In both cases, the expert pilots seem to assume that Hanjour simply lined up the hijacked plane and flew a straight line into the building at a speed at which an aircraft could more easily be controlled by an inexperienced pilot. Needless to say, neither pilot’s statements accurately reflect the actual situation with regard to Flight 77. There is no indication that the New American bothered to fill either Bull or Williams in on the specifics of what Flight 77 actually did when it sought them out to "debunk" the assertion that Hanjour wasn’t a capable enough pilot to have pulled it off.

Offering a similar revisionist account, airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home."60

So, according to this narrative, Hanjour’s "textbook" "fighter jet maneuver" in a Boeing 757 is evidence that he was a "shitty pilot" and any pilot wannabe with some rudimentary training and maybe just a little bit of luck could have done it. It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields. These remarks are perhaps not so much the result of an attempt to challenge conventional wisdom as they were simply demonstrative that Smith made very little effort to actually understand the actual nature of Flight 77’s final flight path before writing that it is a "myth" that Hanjour was not a pilot capable of having performed that maneuver. His characterization of Hanjour’s final maneuver as "loops and turns and spirals" indicates that Smith was generalizing without having any real concept of what Flight 77 actually did in its final minutes. A further indication that Smith really just didn’t know what he was talking about was his suggestion that Hanjour "possibly" had "help from the 757’s autopilot" in pulling off those final maneuvers, which is both patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.

The German magazine Der Spiegel also made the rare attempt to actually address this issue, but found it sufficient enough merely to opine that "This is not difficult to accomplish" and similarly suggesting practically anyone could do it since it was "a maneuver that can be practiced with any flight simulator software."61 End of discussion.

The public was originally told that attack on the Pentagon obviously required a fairly high level of sophistication in the cockpit. It was conventional wisdom that being able to maneuver a large jetliner required a certain level of training, a certain level of skill. The public was then told that Hanjour was the pilot among the 19 hijackers who had the most training and the greatest piloting skill. As the facts emerged and it became evident that Hanjour did not have the requisite level of skill, the government chose to manipulate the evidence in order to maintain its theory. The 9/11 Commission served to cement the legend of Hani Hanjour into history, and the mainstream media, for the most part, accepted and maintained that legend even when much of their own reporting revealed facts that contradicted it. In a few cases, there was acknowledgment that Hanjour was a "shitty" pilot after all, but in such cases the official account was still maintained by throwing common sense out the window and reversing the original consensus that it must have taken a skilled pilot to have performed that final, fatal maneuver.

Perhaps this revisionist retelling of the official story is the correct one. Perhaps the conventional wisdom that it would actually take a skilled pilot to competently control a large jetliner is really wrong. Perhaps it’s true that any second-rate pilot who has trouble controlling even a Cessna-172 could get into the cockpit of a Boeing 757 and do what Hani Hanjour is said to have done. Or, on the other hand, perhaps the revisionist account is just as much nonsense as the story that Hanjour "persevered" and "overcame his mediocrity".

Whichever the case, many questions about the events of 9/11 remain to this day unanswered, despite the appointment of the 9/11 Commission ostensibly to investigate and provide answers to those questions. And whichever the case, the conclusion is inescapable that the 9/11 Commission deliberately attempted to deceive the public about the piloting capabilities of Hani Hanjour.

Why?

  1. Statement for the Record FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry, September 26, 2002. [<-]
  2. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office," New York Times, June 19, 2002. [<-]
  3. FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers,” Washington Post, September 15, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  4. Working Draft Chronology of Events for Hijackers and Associates,” FBI, November 14, 2003 (hereafter “FBI Hijackers Timeline”), p. 41. The complete FBI timeline is available for download online. See: “Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission”, HistoryCommons.org, February 14, 2008. The timeline reads: “FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802 to [redacted] [sic].” The “[sic]” is in the original. Why the name “Hani Saleh Hanjoor” is redacted is unclear. [<-]
  5. The Final Report of the National commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, p. 225-227 (hereafter “9/11 Commission Report”). [<-]
  6. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 530. [<-]
  7. Global Security, September 14, 2001. [<-]
  8. Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” CNN, September 12, 2001. The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. [<-]
  9. ‘Get These Planes on the Ground’: Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11,83; ABC News, October 24, 2001. [<-]
  10. Prima ry Target: 189 Dead Or Missing From Pentagon Attack”, CBS News, September 21, 2001. [<-]
  11. Marc Fisher and Don Phillips, “On Flight 77: ‘Our Plane is Being Hijacked,’” Washington Post, September 12, 2001; Page A01 [<-]
  12. Steve Fainaru and Alia Ibrahim, “Mysterious Trip to Flight 77 Cockpit,” Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  13. Flight Path Study – American Airlines Flight 77,” NTSB, February 19, 2002. [<-]
  14. A copy of the NTSB video was obtained by the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth. It is available for viewing on YouTube (accessed April 8, 2010). [<-]
  15. The Pentagon,” GlobalSecurity.org. [<-]
  16. Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, “A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon, Halting the Government,” New York Times, September 12, 2001. [<-]
  17. The Pentagon,” Great Buildings Online (accessed March 27, 2010). Boeing 757 Technical Specifications from Boeing.com (accessed Marcy 27, 2010). [<-]
  18. DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation,” Department of Defense, September 15, 2001. [<-]
  19. Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<- ] [<-]
  20. FBI Summary about Alleged Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour”, Scribd.com (accessed April 6, 2010; herafter “FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour”). This document was cited by the 9/11 Commission. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) possesses the Commission’s records and has released many documents to the public. See: “9/11 Commission Records,” NARA (accessed March 28, 2010). Many of the released records are available online at Scribd.com. See: “9/11 Document Archive,” Scribd.com (accessed March 28, 2010). [<-]
  21. Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<- ]
  22. Charles M. Sennott, “Why bin Laden plot relied on Saudi hijackers,” Boston Globe, March 3, 2002. [<-]
  23. Joel Mowbray, “Visas that Should Have Been Denied,” National Review Online, October 9, 2002. [<-] [<-] [<-]
  24. FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour. [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-]
  25. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  26. David W. Chen, “Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot,” New York Times, September 18, 2001. [<-] [<-]
  27. Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks,” ABC News, October 4, 2001. [<-]
  28. Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  29. “Hanjour an unlikely terrorist,” Cape Cod Times, October 21, 2001. [<-]
  30. Carol J. Williams, John-Thor Dahlburg, and H.G. Reza, “Mainly, They Just Waited,” Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<-]
  31. V. Dion Haynes, “Algerian man didn’t try to hide, neighbors say,” Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2001. [<-]
  32. FBI Summary of Information, Lofti Raissi”, January 4, 2004. [<-] [<-]
  33. 9/11 Commission Report p. 520. [<-]
  34. Hanjour’s FAA airman documentation from the 9/11 Commission records released by NARA are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  35. Hanjour’s FAA airman records are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  36. Kellie Lunney, “FAA contractors approved flight licenses for Sept. 11 suspect,” Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  37. Report: 9/11 Hijacker Bypassed FAA,” Associated Press, September 30, 2004 [<-] [<-]
  38. Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  39. The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 12. The report notes that “To our knowledge none of them [the hijackers] had ever flown an actual airliner before.” [<-]
  40. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Sections 61.123, 61.129. Present requirements in these regards are the same as they were when Hanjour obtained his certificate. See the version revised as of January 1, 1999. [<-]
  41. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 521- 522. [<-]
  42. FBI FD-302, James Charles McRae,” April 10, 2001. [<-]
  43. Jim Yardley, “A Trainee Noted for Incompetence,” New York Times, May 4, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  44. FAA Probed, Cleared Sept. 11 Hijacker in Early 2001,” Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  45. David Hancock, “FAA Was Alerted to Sept. 11 Hijacker,” CBS News, May 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  46. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office,” New York Times, June 19, 2001 [<-]
  47. FBI Hijacker’s Timeline, p.123. [<-]
  48. Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  49. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 242. [<-]
  50. Brooke A. Masters, Leef Smith, and Michael D. Shear, “Dulles Hijackers Made Maryland Their Base,” Washington Post, September 19, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  51. Piecing together the shadowy lives of the hijackers,” Telegraph, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  52. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, November 24, 2004. [<-]
  53. FBI Hijackers Timeline, p. 150, 154, 156-157, 161-162, 166-167. [<-]
  54. Jacques Billeaud, “More Arizona ties to terror suspect,” Associated Press, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  55. "9/11 Commission Report," p. 529. The document cited by the 9/11 Commission was obtained by Intelwire.com. “FBI Memorandum, Sawyer Aviation records”, October 12, 2001. [<-]
  56. FBI FD-302, Interrogation of Tina Beth Arnold (Sawyer Aviation) ,” FBI, October 17, 2001. [<-]
  57. FBI Summary of Information, Lotfi Raissi,” FBI, January 4, 2004 [<-] [<-] [<-]
  58. William F. Jasper, “9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction," The New American, May 2, 2005. [<-]
  59. Airplane Flight: How High? How Fast? ” NASA (accessed April 17, 2010). Relative airspeed is calculated by the equation B d v2 = W, where factor B depends on the profile of a given set of wings (larger wings produce more lift), d is air density, v is velocity, and W is the airplane’s weight. At 30,000 feet, air density is about ¼ that at sea level, allowing an airliner to double its speed to produce the same amount of lift. [<-]
  60. Patrick Smith, “A sk the pilot,” Salon, May 19, 2006. [<-]
  61. What Really Happened: The 9/11 Fact File,” Der Spiegel, December 20, 2006. [<-]

Jeremy R. Hammond is the editor of Foreign Policy Journal, a website providing news, analysis, and opinion from outside the standard framework provided by government officials and the corporate media. He was among the recipients of the 2010 Project Censored Awards for outstanding investigative journalism and is the author of The Rejection of Palestinian Self- Determination. You can contact him at: jeremy@foreignpolicyjournal.com. Read other articles by Jeremy, or visit Jeremy's website.

This article was posted on Sunday, April 18th, 2010 at 9:00am and is filed under 9-11, Disinformation, FBI, General.



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   18:58:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#329. To: FormerLurker (#326) (Edited)

HOWEVER, and this is a BIG HOWEVER, whoever flew the alleged Flight 77 into the Pentagon DID virtually land the aircraft, as the aircraft had somehow descended to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph over the Pentagon lawn, and hit the wall with the aircraft level, all without even touching the lawn.

You are presuming he did not regress from 1999.

The fact is, immediately after receiving his certificate in 1999, he sought work at Saudi Arabian Airlines. Only when he could not get hired did he start hanging around jihadis and losing interest in maintaining his conventional piloting skills.

The plane hit the Pentagon with the starboard wing striking the 2nd floor and the port wing almost hitting the ground. The hit was neither straight on, nor level. It was a barely controlled attempt to hit any part of a huge building he could.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   19:00:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#330. To: wudidiz, FormerLurker, all (#324)

Yup, I was right. Here we go back through the "FruitLoop" as he repeats his greatest irrelevancies. Photobucket

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   19:01:18 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#331. To: All (#328)

The Impossibility of
Flying Heavy Aircraft
Without Training 

NILA SAGADEVAN / Earth's Common Sense Think Tank 13jun2006

Nila Sagadevan is an aeronautical engineer and a qualified pilot of heavy aircraft.

[Mindfully.org note: Specifications for Boeing 757 and Cessna 172 are from Wikipedia. See other drawing below]

There are some who maintain that the mythical 9/11 hijackers, although proven to be too incompetent to fly a little Cessna 172, had acquired the impressive skills that enabled them to fly airliners by training in flight simulators.

What follows is an attempt to bury this myth once and for all, because I've heard this ludicrous explanation bandied about, at nauseam, on the Internet and the TV networks" "invariably by people who know nothing substantive about flight simulators, flying, or even airplanes.

A common misconception non-pilots have about simulators is how "easy" it is to operate them. They are indeed relatively easy to operate if the objective is to make a few lazy turns and frolic about in the "open sky". But if the intent is to execute any kind of a maneuver with even the least bit of precision, the task immediately becomes quite daunting. And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 MPH, 30,000 feet above the ground the challenges become virtually impossible for an untrained pilot.

And this, precisely, is what the four hijacker pilots who could not fly a Cessna around an airport are alleged to have accomplished in multi-ton, high-speed commercial jets on 9/11.

For a person not conversant with the practical complexities of pilotage, a modern flight simulator could present a terribly confusing and disorienting experience. These complex training devices are not even remotely similar to the video games one sees in amusement arcades, or even the software versions available for home computers.

In order to operate a modern flight simulator with any level of skill, one has to not only be a decent pilot to begin with, but also a skilled instrument-rated one to boot and be thoroughly familiar with the actual aircraft type the simulator represents, since the cockpit layouts vary between aircraft.

The only flight domains where an arcade / PC-type game would even begin to approach the degree of visual realism of a modern professional flight simulator would be during the take-off and landing phases. During these phases, of course, one clearly sees the bright runway lights stretched out ahead, and even peripherally sees images of buildings, etc. moving past. Take-offs "even landings, to a certain degree" are relatively "easy" because the pilot has visual reference cues that exist "outside" the cockpit.

But once you've rotated, climbed out, and reached cruising altitude in a simulator (or real airplane), and find yourself en route to some distant destination (using sophisticated electronic navigation techniques), the situation changes drastically: the pilot loses virtually all external visual reference cues. She / he is left entirely at the mercy of an array of complex flight and navigation instruments to provide situational cues (altitude, heading, speed, attitude, etc.)

In the case of a Boeing 757 or 767, the pilot would be faced with an EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System) panel comprised of six large multi-mode LCDs interspersed with clusters of assorted "hard" instruments. These displays process the raw aircraft system and flight data into an integrated picture of the aircraft situation, position and progress, not only in horizontal and vertical dimensions, but also with regard to time and speed as well. When flying "blind", i.e., with no ground reference cues, it takes a highly skilled pilot to interpret, and then apply, this data intelligently. If one cannot translate this information quickly, precisely and accurately (and it takes an instrument-rated pilot to do so), one would have ZERO SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. I.e., the pilot wouldn't have a clue where she / he was in relation to the earth. Flight under such conditions is referred to as "IFR", or Instrument Flight Rules.

And IFR Rule #1: Never take your eyes off your instruments, because that's all you have!

The corollary to Rule #1: If you can't read the instruments in a quick, smooth, disciplined, scan, you are as good as dead. Accident records from around the world are replete with reports of any number of good pilots "i.e., professional instrument-rated pilots " who ‘bought the farm' because they screwed up while flying in IFR conditions.

Let me place this in the context of the 9/11 hijacker-pilots. These men were repeatedly deemed incompetent to solo a simple “Cessna-172”, an elementary exercise that involves flying this little trainer once around the patch on a sunny day. A student's first solo flight involves a simple circuit: take-off, followed by four gentle left turns ending with a landing back on the runway. This is as basic as flying can possibly get.

Not one of the hijackers was deemed fit to perform this most elementary exercise by himself, in fact, here is what their flight instructors had to say about the aptitude of these budding aviators:

Now let's take a look at American Airlines Flight 77. Passenger / hijacker Hani Hanjour rises from his seat midway through the flight, viciously fights his way into the cockpit with his cohorts, overpowers Captain Charles F. Burlingame and First Officer David Charlebois, and somehow manages to toss them out of the cockpit (for starters, very difficult to achieve in a cramped environment without inadvertently impacting the yoke and thereby disengaging the autopilot). One would correctly presume that this would present considerable difficulties to a little guy with a “box cutter". Burlingame was a tough, burly, ex-Vietnam F4 fighter jock, who had flown over 100 combat missions. Every pilot who knows him says that rather than politely hand over the controls, Burlingame would have instantly rolled the plane on its back so that Hanjour would have broken his neck when he hit the floor. But let's ignore this almost natural reaction expected of a fighter pilot and proceed with this charade.

Nonetheless, imagine that Hanjour overpowers the flight deck crew, removes them from the cockpit and takes his position in the captain's seat. Although weather reports state this was not the case, let's say Hanjour was lucky enough to experience a perfect CAVU day (Ceiling And Visibility Unlimited). If Hanjour looked straight ahead through the windshield, or off to his left at the ground, at best he would see, 35,000 feet - - 7 miles - - below him, a murky brownish-gray-green landscape, virtually devoid of surface detail, while the aircraft he was now piloting was moving along, almost imperceptibly and in eerie silence, at around 500 MPH (about 750 feet every second).

In a real-world scenario (and given the reported weather conditions that day), he would likely have seen clouds below him completely obscuring the ground he was traversing. With this kind of "situational non-awareness", Hanjour might as well have been flying over Argentina, Russia, or Japan he wouldn't have had a clue as to where, precisely, he was.

After a few seconds (at 750 feet per second), Hanjour would figure out there's little point in looking outside - there is nothing there to give him any real visual cues. For a man who had previously wrestled with little Cessnas, following freeways and railroad tracks (and always in the comforting presence of an instructor), this would have been a strange, eerily unsettling environment indeed.

Seeing nothing outside, Mr. Hanjour would be forced to divert his attention to his instrument panel, where he would be faced with a bewildering array of instruments. He would then have to very quickly interpret his heading, ground track, altitude, and airspeed information on the displays before he could even figure out where in the world he was, much less where the Pentagon was located in relation to his position!

After all, before he can crash into a target, he has to first find the target.

It is very difficult to explain this scenario, of an utter lack of ground reference, to non-pilots; but let it suffice to say that for these incompetent hijacker non-pilots to even consider grappling with such a daunting task would have been utterly overwhelming. They wouldn't have known where to begin.

But, for the sake of discussion let's stretch things beyond all plausibility and say that Hanjour - whose flight instructor claimed "couldn't fly at all" - somehow managed to figure out their exact position on the American landscape in relation to their intended target as they traversed the earth at a speed five times faster than they had ever flown by themselves before.

Once he had determined exactly where he was, he would need to figure out where the Pentagon was located in relation to his rapidly changing position. He would then need to plot a course to his target (one he cannot see with his eyes - remember, our ace is flying solely on instruments).

In order to perform this bit of electronic navigation, he would have to be very familiar with IFR procedures. None of these chaps even knew what a navigational chart looked like, much less how to plug information into flight management computers (FMC) and engage LNAV (lateral navigation automated mode). If one is to believe the official story, all of this was supposedly accomplished by raw student pilots, while flying blind at 500 MPH, (about 750 feet every second) over 30,000 feet high and above the unfamiliar ground, (and practically invisible) terrain, using complex methodologies and employing sophisticated instruments.

To get around this little problem, the official storyline suggests these men manually flew their aircraft to their respective targets (NB: This still wouldn't relieve them of the burden of navigation). But let's assume Hanjour disengaged the autopilot and auto-throttle and hand-flew the aircraft to its intended - and invisible - target on instruments alone until such time as he could get a visual fix. This would have necessitated him to fly back across West Virginia and Virginia to Washington DC. - - This portion of the Flight 77's flight path cannot be corroborated by any radar evidence that exists, because the aircraft is said to have suddenly disappeared from radar screens over Ohio, but let's not mull over that little point. - -

According to FAA radar controllers, "Flight 77" then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees per minute while descending at 3,500 feet per minute, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver, - - one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn't have spelt the word if his life depended on it. - -

The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane."

And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him.

But even that wasn't good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his "missile" was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon - and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men's lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway - -, there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing. - -

I shan't get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.)

Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000 pounds airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH.

The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jets), i.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile.

Why the stipulation of 20 feet and a mile? There were several street light poles located up to a mile away from the Pentagon that were snapped-off by the incoming aircraft; this suggests a low, flat trajectory during the final pre-impact approach phase. Further, it is known that the craft impacted the Pentagon's ground floor. For purposes of reference: If a 757 were placed on the ground on its engine nacelles (I.e., gear retracted as in flight profile), its nose would be almost 20 above the ground! Ergo, for the aircraft to impact the ground floor of the Pentagon, Hanjour would have needed to have flown in with the engines buried 10-feet deep in the Pentagon lawn. Some pilot.

At any rate, why is such ultra-low-level flight aerodynamically impossible? Because the reactive force of the hugely powerful downwash sheet, coupled with the compressibility effects of the tip vortices, simply will not allow the aircraft to get any lower to the ground than approximately one half the distance of its wingspan - until speed is drastically reduced, which, of course, is what happens during normal landings.

In other words, if this were a Boeing 757 as reported, the plane could not have been flown below about 60 feet above ground at 400 MPH. (Such a maneuver is entirely within the performance envelope of aircraft with high wing-loadings, such as ground-attack fighters, the B1-B bomber, and Cruise missiles - and the Global Hawk.)

The very same navigational challenges mentioned above would have faced the pilots who flew the two 767s into the Twin Towers, in that they, too, would have had to have first found their targets. Again, these chaps, too, miraculously found themselves spot on course. And again, their "final approach" maneuvers at over 500 MPH are simply far too incredible to have been executed by pilots who could not solo basic training aircraft.

Conclusion
The writers of the official storyline expect us to believe, that once the flight deck crews had been overpowered, using “box cutters" and the hijackers "took control" of the various aircraft, their intended targets suddenly popped up in their windshields as they would have in some arcade game, and all that these fellows would have had to do was simply aim their airplanes at the buildings and fly into them. Most people who have been exposed only to the official storyline have never been on the flight deck of an airliner at altitude and looked at the outside world; if they had, they would realize the absurdity of this kind of reasoning.

In reality, a clueless non-pilot would encounter almost insurmountable difficulties in attempting to navigate and fly a 200,000 pounds airliner into a building located on the ground, 7 miles below and hundreds of miles away and out of sight, and in an unknown direction, while flying at over 500 MPH - and all this under extremely stressful circumstances.

About the Author: Nila Sagadevan was born in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and educated in Britain. A former commercial pilot, he holds a degree in aeronautical engineering from the University of Edinburgh and works as a communications consultant. He lives with his wife and son in Laguna Hills, CA. and may be reached at nila@omnicomltd.com

source: http://www.venusproject.com/ethics_in_action/911_Impossible_Flying_757.html 13jun2006

scaled drawing from Boeing website simplified by Mindfully.org 14jun2006



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:02:41 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#332. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#330)

Show me the slightest shred of proof of your Great Bean Counter Conspiracy, FruitLoopMonger.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   19:03:55 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#333. To: HOUNDDAWG (#259)

BIG bump. Well articulated.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-25   19:05:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#334. To: FormerLurker (#331)

And if the aim is to navigate to a specific geographic location hundreds of miles away while flying at over 500 MPH, 30,000 feet above the ground the challenges become virtually impossible for an untrained pilot

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

A proven incompetent.

All it takes to navigate by a DME/VORTAC is punch in 4 digits of the VORTAC's frequency into the receiver on the cockpit.

A VORTAC broadcasts hundreds of miles and when it has DME it gives precise distance to itself in nautical miles and radial.

What an overinflated dummy to claim that punching in 4 numbers to a transceiver is "virtually impossible for an untrained pilot."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   19:08:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#335. To: Rotara (#333)

Rotara sneaking in for the triple threes.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   19:09:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#336. To: Original_Intent (#330)

i sense that both of these shills voted for Chimperor I at least once each AND for hObama...can't prove it of course, but it fits.


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-25   19:11:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#337. To: abraxas (#335)

lucky 3s

timing is everything, baby ! ;-)


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-25   19:12:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#338. To: AGAviator (#329)

The plane hit the Pentagon with the starboard wing striking the 2nd floor and the port wing almost hitting the ground. The hit was neither straight on, nor level. It was a barely controlled attempt to hit any part of a huge building he could.

A) If the nose had been up, he would have climbed over the Pentagon.
B) If the nose had been down, he would have created a crater at the wall, and not penetrated.
C) If the wings weren't level, they would have hit the ground, ripping off the lower wing, leaving a huge gash in the lawn, and would have caused the plane to twist and spin, with the nose hitting the ground and the plane hitting the wall sideways.

None of those things happened, no matter how much you try to spin it.

Additionally, it was close to impossibile to get the aircraft down to that altitude at that speed, where even professional pilots would have been unable to do it and not have climbed over the Pentagon or hit the lawn. The aircraft was under incredible control to be able to perform as it did.

In fact, the author of the article I just posted above, Nila Sagadevan, who is an aeronautical engineer and a qualified pilot of heavy aircraft, has issued a challenge to any pilot in the world to fly a large heavy aircraft with low wing loading (such as a Boeing 757) below 60 feet at a speed of 400 mph in a flat trajectory for over a mile, which is what Hani Hanjour (Hanjoor) is alleged to have accomplished, even though he was unable to fly a Cessna 172.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:13:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#339. To: Original_Intent (#330)

Here we go back through the "FruitLoop" as he repeats his greatest irrelevancies.

Er, OI, may I remind you that doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result is insanity. Replay of the greatest irrelevancies reminds me of what George Jetson used to say, "Stop this crazy thing!!"

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   19:14:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#340. To: AGAviator (#334)

All it takes to navigate by a DME/VORTAC is punch in 4 digits of the VORTAC's frequency into the receiver on the cockpit.

A VORTAC broadcasts hundreds of miles and when it has DME it gives precise distance to itself in nautical miles and radial.

How much experience do YOU have in the cockpit of a 757? Do you know anything of WHERE the navigational controls are, and how to work the EFIS (Electronic Flight Instrumentation System)?

For a person who skipped class and did poorly when he did attend, you expect him to know, without ever being IN a 757 cockpit before, how to enter the correct codes and WHERE the instruments are? And HOW was he supposed to even KNOW the proper codes?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:18:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#341. To: Rotara (#337)

timing is everything, baby ! ;-)

lol......you're like a lucky rabbit's foot, but it wasn't very lucky for the rabbit.

First Buck's Bozo award and now THIS.......honestly, I'm feeling a bit green over it. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   19:18:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#342. To: FormerLurker (#340)

For a person who skipped class and did poorly when he did attend, you expect him to know, without ever being IN a 757 cockpit before, how to enter the correct codes and WHERE the instruments are? And HOW was he supposed to even KNOW the proper codes?

Of course, he was a magical terrorist.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   19:19:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#343. To: AGAviator (#334)

And oh yeah AG, where are Hanjour's IFR certfications?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:19:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#344. To: RickyJ (#246)

They make me ill. They'd all (Michael) 'Reagan' US in a heartbeat. They HATE the Truth and LOVE the LIE...


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-25   19:19:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#345. To: abraxas (#341)

i might have to go $it in front of a $lot machine for an hour or two and $ee if thi$ all tran$late$ into $ome reward$...lol


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-25   19:21:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#346. To: abraxas (#342)

Of course, he was a magical terrorist.

They must have been experts at magick, because a LOT of it happened that day, where the rules of the universe were suspended, and they were able to get the US military to go on war games that very morning which they intended to hijack those aircraft, making the military SIMULATE hijacked aircraft on FAA and NORAD radars while the actual hijackings were taking place.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:22:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#347. To: AGAviator (#334)

BTW AG, are you familiar with a 757's flight management computers (FMC) and would you know how to engage LNAV (lateral navigation automated mode)?

Describe how you would do that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:24:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#348. To: Rotara (#336)

i sense that both of these shills voted for Chimperor I at least once each AND for hObama...can't prove it of course, but it fits.

Either that or Pee Wee Herman and Forrest Buehler.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   19:31:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#349. To: abraxas, FormerLurker (#342) (Edited)

For a person who skipped class and did poorly when he did attend, you expect him to know, without ever being IN a 757 cockpit before, how to enter the correct codes and WHERE the instruments are? And HOW was he supposed to even KNOW the proper codes?

Of course, he was a magical terrorist.

Either that or he was channeling Osama Ben Richtoften.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   19:33:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#350. To: FormerLurker (#338)

Incompatible With Missile

"Looking at the face of the building, it can be seen that this damage perfectly matches the remaining nearby damage, which stretches for several meters and is compatible with the hypothesis of an impact of the right wing of an aircraft of the same size as a Boeing 757/200."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   19:38:12 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#351. To: AGAviator (#350)

A quick click on your link to the Italian Blogger and I can see why you didn't bother to post his text........

"The particular location of the damaged point, which is recessed with respect to the impact region of a hypothetical missile, shows that such damage cannot be due to something that occurred from the inside outward, because the damaged region is protected inward by the window pane which is still in place and is shielded, by the column, from the main region of impact of the hypothetical missile."

Inside outward? He's basing all of his debunking on a little broken window. lol Gee, I can't imagine why you didn't bother to post this great insight along with the pictures.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   19:44:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#352. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, abraxas, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, Critter, christine, all (#350)

I see you are now trying to change the subject again. Having had your head handed to you we now proceed through what Gerard Holmgren calls "the FruitLoop".

Do you realize how transparent your tactics are at this point?

Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   19:46:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#353. To: FormerLurker (#340)

For a person who skipped class and did poorly when he did attend, you expect him to know, without ever being IN a 757 cockpit before, how to enter the correct codes and WHERE the instruments are?

Cockpit instrument layout differs little from single engine aircraft to multi engine jets. The only difference is there are a few more displays for multi engine craft.

Also there are simulators. Furthermore all VORTAC receivers work the same regardless of what craft they are installed in.

And HOW was he supposed to even KNOW the proper codes?

From about 10 different NAVAIDS ranging from charts to handbooks, all of which list them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   19:49:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#354. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#352)

17. Change the subject

Where's your slightest proof of your Mother of All Conspiracies Bean Counters having the slightest evidence of any missing money they could not be kept from revealing short of execution, phony "Mr. Change the Subject" windbag?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   19:51:52 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#355. To: AGAviator (#350)

Incompatible With Missile

Uh huh. Where are the engines and wings then?

That looks much more like missile blast damage than it does an aircraft crash.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:54:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#356. To: abraxas (#351) (Edited)

Inside outward? He's basing all of his debunking on a little broken window

Wrong.

He's basing his debunking on the fact that a missile does not push in the exterior of a building 1 story above and 25 feet away from where a missile supposedly penetrated.

A wing does that.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   19:54:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#357. To: AGAviator (#353)

Also there are simulators. Furthermore all VORTAC receivers work the same regardless of what craft they are installed in.

He never entered the cockpit of a 757 nor did he train on a 757 simulator. He couldn't even navigate a Cessna, according to his instructors.

And again, just because the aircraft DID have navigational aids and computers does NOT been he knew how to use them, or even knew what they looked like or where they were located.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:56:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#358. To: AGAviator, abraxas, ALL (#356)

A wing does that.

Where's all the fire damage from the fuel then? There IS no fire damage there, not the sort of fire damage that would occur from thousands of gallons of jet fuel at least...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   19:58:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#359. To: AGAviator (#356)

From his text:

I find the damage to the column and the adjacent window, to the right of the column, to be particularly interesting.

The window's upper part is missing; the lower part is still in place but the frame is substiantally damaged on the left upright, where it is connected to the wall, and is partially extracted from its seat and pushed towards the interior of the building.

He's most definitely putting his attention on the window, despite your lie to the contrary. This is blatently clear when one reads his text under the little pictures, that you failed to post.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   20:00:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#360. To: FormerLurker (#355) (Edited)

Uh huh. Where are the engines and wings then?

Scattered all over the crash site, as one would expect.

911 Debunked - Pentagon Flight 77 Photo Evidence

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:01:24 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#361. To: FormerLurker (#357)

And again, just because the aircraft DID have navigational aids and computers does NOT been he knew how to use them

Ah, the fall back position. If...if...if...Prove it...prove it....prove it.

All VORTACS work the same. You get the frequencies from about a dozen different places including charts, and you type in the frequencies and adjust the heading in all of 5 seconds.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:04:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#362. To: AGAviator (#356)

A wing does that.

The wing of a remote controlled model airplane would leave the tiny six inch hole in the window that this Italian Blogger has opted to put so much emphasis upon, not the wing of a 757.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   20:04:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#363. To: AGAviator (#360) (Edited)

Your link doesn't work.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-25   20:05:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#364. To: abraxas (#363)

Works for me

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80746575/

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:07:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#365. To: AGAviator (#361)

Ah, the fall back position. If...if...if...Prove it...prove it....prove it.

The plane had wings and rudders as well, doesn't mean any old person can hop into the cockpit and know how to use them.

That was my point.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   20:22:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#366. To: AGAviator (#360)

Where's all the fire damage from the jet fuel in the front of the Pentagon? Oh that's right, there wasn't much fire there, so the fuel must have magically disappeared.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   20:23:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#367. To: FormerLurker (#331)

About the Author: Nila Sagadevan was born in Ceylon (now Sri Lanka) and educated in Britain. A former commercial pilot, he holds a degree in aeronautical engineering from the University of Edinburgh and works as a communications consultant.

He lives with his wife and son in Laguna Hills, CA. and may be reached at nila@omnicomltd.com

The email for nila@omnicomltd.com does not work.

Hmmmm, false flag op?

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:24:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#368. To: FormerLurker (#365)

The plane had wings and rudders as well, doesn't mean any old person can hop into the cockpit and know how to use them

Wings and rudder controls work the same for all aircraft. There are lots of simulator programs you can verify that for yourself. That's why you get a license for an aircraft type, not a particular model.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:26:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#369. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, abraxas, all (#368)

The plane had wings and rudders as well, doesn't mean any old person can hop into the cockpit and know how to use them

Wings and rudder controls work the same for all aircraft. There are lots of simulator programs you can verify that for yourself. That's why you get a license for an aircraft type, not a particular model.

And Hanjour/Hanjoor's well known inability, and inexperience, to properly operate them is why he didn't have a license for this type.

So, we've traveled around the Fruit Loop and are back at Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor SUPER PILOT.

At least your fairy tales are amusingly consistent.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   20:30:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#370. To: FormerLurker (#366) (Edited)

Where's all the fire damage from the jet fuel in the front of the Pentagon? Oh that's right, there wasn't much fire there, so the fuel must have magically disappeared.

Yup, no fires and no fire engines either. That's the ticket

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:33:42 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#371. To: Original_Intent (#369)

Where's your proof of the Mother of All Conspiracies Bean Counters being so intractible they had to be executed en masse to keep them from going off reservation, Half_Truther_Change_the_Subject?

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:37:57 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#372. To: AGAviator (#367)

The email for nila@omnicomltd.com does not work.

Hmmmm, false flag op?

The article was written years ago, so his address could have changed since then. Have you tried searching for his name?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   20:38:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#373. To: AGAviator (#370)

Where's the fire damage in the EARLIER pictures you posted, such as this one?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   20:40:17 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#374. To: AGAviator (#368)

Wings and rudder controls work the same for all aircraft. There are lots of simulator programs you can verify that for yourself. That's why you get a license for an aircraft type, not a particular model.

Hanjour couldn't work the wings and rudder of a Cessna 172 single engine plane very well, yet he was able to fly a 757 like an ace pilot, yeah right.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   20:41:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#375. To: AGAviator (#371)

ImageHost.org

Attaboy! If you can't win the argument try and misrepresent something out of context while goading your opponent. It might work on someone so keep it up. You'll find a sucker to buy it yet.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   20:42:03 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#376. To: FormerLurker (#374)

Hanjour couldn't work the wings and rudder of a Cessna 172 single engine plane very well, yet he was able to fly a 757 like an ace pilot, yeah right

He didn't fly like an ace pilot. He barely hit his target at all, as I have repeatedly stated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:46:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#377. To: Original_Intent (#375)

Answer the questions like you expect others to, windbag.

Where's your proof of the Mother of All Conspiracies Bean Counters being so intractible they had to be executed en masse to keep them from going off reservation, Half_Truther_Change_the_Subject?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:48:27 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#378. To: AGAviator (#377)

Why don't you dance for us? ImageHost.org

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   20:50:38 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#379. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#373)

Where's the fire damage in the EARLIER pictures

Fires appear not to have consistently reached that high. Not really relevant. Something made a big gash in the exterior, and it couldn't have been a missile.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:54:50 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#380. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#378)

Don't change the subject, Half Truther.

Provide proof of your claims, not trolling.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   20:58:15 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#381. To: wudidiz (#322)

Excellent post, what it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   21:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#382. To: FormerLurker (#358)

There IS no fire damage there, not the sort of fire damage that would occur from thousands of gallons of jet fuel at least...

That is a puzzler. They apparently only had enough of the Magickal Jet Fuel™ for the ones that hit the twin towers and not for the one that they claim hit the Pentagon. Surely it would have fallen into a pile of dust too. I'm glad there was such a limited amount of that. Another 100,000 gallons of it would probably destroy most of the buildings in America.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   21:15:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#383. To: Original_Intent (#369)

And Hanjour/Hanjoor's well known inability, and inexperience, to properly operate them is why he didn't have a license for this type.

Hanjour had a 1999 certificate for a commercial pilot, and presumably for a single engine which regs at the time said was needed to qualify for the commercial pilot certificate.

Now where's your proof of the Mother of All Conspiracy Bean Counters needing to be executed by a 911 Pentagon crash.

Who were they. How many. What happened to the evidence. Who was willing to listen to them in the first place.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   21:33:47 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#384. To: AGAviator (#383)

Poor Aviator he got spanked and now it's just eating at him.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   21:43:05 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#385. To: FormerLurker (#283)

either they think every one is as stupid as they are or they reap a real or perceived benefit. with AGovshill I see the latter, always sticking to the versed script whereas bucky is just willfully ignorant.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   22:02:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#386. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, Original_Intent, ALL (#379)

Fires appear not to have consistently reached that high. Not really relevant. Something made a big gash in the exterior, and it couldn't have been a missile.

Not relevant?

The fire is INSIDE the building, not the OUTSIDE, which would be the case if thousands of gallons of jet fuel splashed all over the outside wall, which it WOULD have done if the wing of a 757 hit it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   22:23:48 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#387. To: Original_Intent (#301)

one could get the impression that AGovshill's situation in the aviation industry is akin to hanjour/hanjoor's, a non-English speaking goofenheimer who can't make it past learners permit because of a lack of over all flying skill. maybe some ABC agency offered to pull some strings if he'd just do them a little favor which only required him to stick to a versed script.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   22:25:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#388. To: Original_Indent (#384)

Changing the subject again, Half Truther.

Produce the evidence.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   22:30:07 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#389. To: FormerLurker (#386)

The fire is INSIDE the building, not the OUTSIDE, which would be the case if thousands of gallons of jet fuel splashed all over the outside wall, which it WOULD have done if the wing of a 757 hit it.

The 757 engines are suspended from pylons several feet below the wings. The wings getting ground up hitting the wall, does not equal jet engines and fuselage not making holes in the wall lower down on 1st floor.

A fuselage and jet engines going into the building over 400 mph creates a substantial vacuum behind them, which pulled the fuel fireball into the backdraft and into the building.

And none of these objections furthers the cause of "therefore we must conclude a missile or means unknown caused the impact - not a 757 which was reported missing and had scores of passangers who died at the crash scene, and were identified by forensic DNA."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   22:45:25 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#390. To: AGAviator (#388)

Interesting graphic. Is the original in finger paint or crayon?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-25   22:51:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#391. To: AGAviator (#376)

He didn't fly like an ace pilot. He barely hit his target at all, as I have repeatedly stated.

The air traffic controllers thought it was a military fighter jet when they picked up the alleged Flight 77 on radar, due to the manner in which the plane was flown.

Not only could Hanjour NOT have flown it that way, but whoever WAS flying it could have easily inflicted MUCH more damage than what was actually done.

All the pilot had to do is dive into the Pentagon, the plane was already on a course to hit the side of the building containing Rumsfeld's office along with those of top brass. Hitting the roof would have caused widespread damage, and enfulfed the entire building in flames. The target was the size of 22 football fields with that approach, and would have been MUCH easier and effective than performing precision manuevers to turn the plane towards the LEAST occupied part of the building and hitting a 71 foot vertical wall precisely at the ground level.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   22:53:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#392. To: AGAviator (#388)

With your idiotic conspiracy clown graphics, you're really coming across as a person who has NOTHING on his side in the way of truth, and who resorts to posting really stupid images which you hope will make us look stupid, but it's YOU who comes across as being stupid for resorting to those cheap shots.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   22:58:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#393. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, ALL (#389)

A fuselage and jet engines going into the building over 400 mph creates a substantial vacuum behind them,

Where did the wing and its engine pass through in the image below? That blue section certainly won't fit a wing, and since the FUEL is stored IN the wing, if the wing had disintegrated outside the building, the FUEL would ALSO be outside the building.

There IS no wing damage visible, so you truly ARE grasping at straws here, and actually confirm that a 757 DID NOT hit the Pentagon on 9/11/2001.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   23:04:39 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#394. To: IRTorqued (#385)

whereas bucky is just willfully ignorant.

Well, even he admitted he didn't have a clue. One of the few honest things he has said in some time I suppose.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-25   23:05:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#395. To: James Deffenbach (#394)

true, true.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   23:11:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#396. To: FormerLurker (#393)

the motto of the liar movement "all hail the tale!"


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-25   23:18:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#397. To: FormerLurker (#393) (Edited)

Actually confirm that a 757 DID NOT hit the Pentagon on 9/11/2001.

Numerous 757 parts including landing gear, parts of APU's, fuselage aluminum in the AA paint scheme, jet engine parts, and landing wheel pieces were found both inside and outside the building, frequently scorched, and broken into pieces.

Including, ahem, the charred cockpit voice recorder and flight instrument recorder cited by you know whoooo.

Crashes involving 450 mph aircraft crashing into buildings don't happen that frequently, and nattering over minutiae of how something ended up where it did, when it was propelled by huge impact, fuel explosion, and kinetic energy forces, does not in any way lead to the conclusion "Therefore it had to have been a missile."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   23:29:57 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#398. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#392)

but it's YOU who comes across as being stupid for resorting to those cheap shots.

After 8 years going on 9, none of you Tw00fers is any closer to producing your own evidence or your own scenario than you were in September 2001.

All any of you can do is natter and pick at existing theories, arm wave, selectively choose excerpts from existing evidence, while ignoring the parts that contradict your position, and eventually settle into personal attacks and cultism.

Since in the American system the accusers must prove their charges beyond a reasonable doubt, and you cannot do this, the best possible outcome you can hope for is the conclusion "We need more information." So go get it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-25   23:37:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#399. To: AGAviator (#397)

Oh some sort of aircraft struck the Pentagon, and some debris was "found" inside the Pentagon (who knows what sort of "construction" was really going on, I mean, they could have been placing those parts in there at that time).

BUT, there is NO wing damage visible where the wing is alleged to have entered the Pentagon, and there is NO fuel fire where the wing is claimed to have impacted, so there COULD NOT HAVE BEEN A WING from a 757 that hit that building.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-25   23:51:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#400. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, Original_Intent, RickyJ, wudidiz (#398)

After 8 years going on 9, none of you Tw00fers is any closer to producing your own evidence or your own scenario than you were in September 2001.

All any of you can do is natter and pick at existing theories, arm wave, selectively choose excerpts from existing evidence, while ignoring the parts that contradict your position, and eventually settle into personal attacks and cultism.

Since in the American system the accusers must prove their charges beyond a reasonable doubt, and you cannot do this, the best possible outcome you can hope for is the conclusion "We need more information." So go get it.

What it comes down to is that you're grasping at straws, your OWN "evidence" proves that what you claim to be true ISN'T true, where there is no fuel fire where there should have been.

You dodge any evidence presented to you, launch a salvo of ad hominems in response, and fail to refute what is presented.

Oh yes, you try to lecture me about the American system of justice, where you are innocent before being proven guilty. Where is that concept in the idea that we can blame what happened on 19 individuals who are alleged to have perpetrated this crime, yet at least 7 are still alive, so it COULDN'T have been them, yet you try to convince the public that THEY did it.

That's not even considering the horredous torture we inflict on alleged "terrorists", some of whom were simple farmers who were rounded up by tribal bandits and sold to the US government as "captured terrorsts".

Oh yes, we are being "un-American" by questioning the stories handed us, for putting forward the idea that a REAL investigation be performed, and that those who ARE responsible for these attacks pay for their crimes.

You're not going to convince anyone that you care for justice, because if you did, you wouldn't be attacking those who are trying to find that justice.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   0:01:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#401. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#399) (Edited)

Oh some sort of aircraft struck the Pentagon, and some debris was "found" inside the Pentagon

Ruh roh!

Look at who's coming down squarely on the side of the "Official Gubmint Theory"

Why none other than 911 Research itself!

HAHAHAHA!

911 Research.com: The Pentagon Attack, What the Physical Evidence Shows by Jim Hoffman

In late 2004 I wrote The Pentagon No-757-Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics . In it, I examined the no-Boeing theory from several perspectives including analysis of its:

psychology
history
evidentiary support
propaganda
misinformation

That essay presents a cumulative argument against the no-Boeing theory using each of these perspectives. Critics of this essay failed to acknowledge this and instead zeroed in on one point or another to highlight it as if the entire case against the no-Boeing theory hinged on that point. For example, several critics have misstated my position as relying exclusively on the accounts of eyewitnesses, ignoring my detailed examination of the 'physical evidence case' for the no-Boeing theory.

In this essay I look exclusively at the physical evidence of the Pentagon attack -- post-crash photographs and verifiable information about the building, the Boeing 757-200 aircraft, and the physics of aircraft crashes based on case studies. In some cases I mention elements of eyewitness accounts, but only to frame my analysis of what the photographs show about the crash. I show that the physical evidence is consistent with the crash of a 757, noting flaws in popular arguments to the contrary.

The many eyewitness accounts of the Pentagon attack constitute a rich body of evidence that strongly supports the conclusion that the attack plane was either a Boeing 757 or a very similar aircraft. The physical and eyewitness evidence are thus mutually corroborating, a fact that is obscured by common errors in evaluating the physical evidence. Many researchers have dismissed the body of eyewitness evidence out of hand, primarily for two reasons:

Allegations that the body of witness evidence as a whole is plagued by bias, contamination, and unreliability (addressed here) have been widely promoted and have not been effectively countered, apparently because the ponderous volume of the witness reports discourages analysis.

Assertions that physical evidence trumps witness evidence in any crime investigation have fostered a reflexive disdain for witness evidence while lending a false sense of infallibility to arguments based on photographs. Factors such as these have contributed to the creation of a false dialectic, which has eyewitness evidence supporting the Boeing theory and physical evidence supporting the no-Boeing theory. By focusing on the physical evidence here, I hope to sidestep that dialectic and clarify what conclusions the physical evidence actually supports.

The Pentagon No- 757- Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics by Jim Hoffman

The idea that no 757 crashed at the Pentagon is easily the most controversial and divisive issue among researchers of the 9/11/01 attacks. Effectively promoted since early 2002, this idea has enjoyed an increasing acceptance in the 9/11 Truth Movement, despite its blatant incompatibility with the extensive body of eyewitness evidence that a 757-like twin-engine jetliner flew into the Pentagon and exploded.

Many researchers have ignored or dismissed this eyewitness evidence in favor of a seemingly overwhelming physical evidence case that no 757 crashed at the Pentagon, based on photographs of the crash site. As I show below, however, each of the pieces of evidence adduced in favor of the no-757-crash theory can be reconciled with the crash of a 757.

The controversy over this issue has eclipsed the many documented facts linking the 9/11/01 attacks to insiders. Defenders of the official story have seized on this issue as representative of the gullibility and incompetence of 9/11 "conspiracy theorists"

Think I'll roll me a fattie and watch this one from the sidelines, LOL.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   0:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#402. To: AGAviator (#401)

Think I'll roll me a fattie and watch this one from the sidelines, LOL.

Somehow it seems appropriate that you would be a dope smoker.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   0:25:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#403. To: AGAviator (#401)

Think I'll roll me a fattie and watch this one from the sidelines, LOL.

lol.....your 911-Research link where you copy and pasted that article supports the following 911 TRUTHERS:

9-11 Research recommends the following organizations for their rational and science-based analysis of the attack. See the Architects & Engineers and Scholars sites for regularly updated listings of educational events. Scholars for 9/11 Truth & Justice Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth Journal of 9/11 Studies

That means your source recommends Prof. Stephen Jones and Architect Richard Gage, both of whom I have submitted information inwhich you attempt to berate the messenger.

Perhaps, you should research your own sources more fully. Enjoy your fatty while you check out the recommened Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth who call bovine excrement on those buildings falling from fire.

LOL!!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   0:29:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#404. To: AGAviator (#401)

LOL........read this article from your link:

9/11 - Acceleration Close to Free Fall [PDF] by Frank Legge (Ph D)

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   0:31:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#405. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, Original_Intent, bush_is_a_moonie, ALL (#401)

The Pentagon No- 757- Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics by Jim Hoffman

People such as you have planted those sorts of stories across the web, fooling otherwise rational people into believing such crap.

In order to cover the very obvious fact that NO WING FROM A 757 HIT THE PENTAGON, since there was NO FUEL FIRE WHERE THE WING SHOULD HAVE HIT THE WALL, and there is NO HOLE FOR THE WING TO HAVE PENETRATED THE WALL, you folks have played the part of "concerned researchers" literally IGNORING ALL THE EVIDENCE, and claiming that those who see the obvious are DISINFO AGENTS.

How ingenious of you, it's rather sad that people actually fall for it.

The fact is, Hanjour would NOT and COULD NOT have had even the REMOTEST chance of flying that alleged 757 the way it was flown that day, and the damage to the Pentagon doesn't match that of a Boeing 757.

You can't change those facts, all you have is spin.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   0:33:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#406. To: AGAviator (#401)

lol......here's another great article from your link with support for Stephen Jones and his work on this issue.

Steven E. Jones A Physics Professor Speaks Out on 9-11: Reason, Publicity, and Reaction by Victoria Ashley

Version 1.0, Jan. 14, 2006

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   0:35:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#407. To: AGAviator (#401)

And yet another gem from your source:

NIST Data Disproves Collapse Theories Based on Fire [PDF] by Frank Legge (Ph D)

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   0:37:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#408. To: AGAviator (#401)

lol.......and yet another "Truther" debunking your theories from your source:

WTC 1 Collapse - The First Moments by Wayne Trumpman

This paper examines the first few seconds of the North Tower's collapse after a detailed review of the fires based on NIST's data, and shows that collapse progressed far too rapidly to be explained without the involvement of demolition.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   0:43:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#409. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#402)

Somehow it seems appropriate that you would be a dope smoker.

Well, I've certainly ***smoked*** you, Half Truther Dope, on this thread and several others from beginning to end.

Now where's that proof of the Mother of All Conspiracy Bean Counters being offed on 911 Pentagon crashes.

Who were they, why couldn't they be kept on reservation, and who did the dirty deeds. And where's your evidence other than your big mouth.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   0:52:26 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#410. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#403)

That means your source recommends Prof. Stephen Jones and Architect Richard Gage, both of whom I have submitted information inwhich you attempt to berate the messenger

As usual you cannot comprehend anything other than a minute fragment of what I post.

I clearly am noting that the "No plane hit the Pentagon" theory is so wacky and divisive that even a CT'er won't get near it.

That does not translate into my endorsing or buying anything else he states. It simply means that CT's buy into the most extreme positions which marginalizes them and makes them unable to get any traction because they are seen as such fringe characters.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   0:57:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#411. To: FormerLurker (#405)

The Pentagon No- 757- Crash Theory: Booby Trap for 9/11 Skeptics by Jim Hoffman People such as you have planted those sorts of stories across the web, fooling otherwise rational people into believing such crap

I already told ya I'm gonna sit this one out. The CT'ers take such extreme positions, as I note in my sig line every post I make, that no normal people can consider them seriously.

Hofman recognizes this point at least in the Pentagon crash.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   0:58:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#412. To: AGAviator (#401)

Here's one of the fliers you can download and make copies for distribution:

You see your site link supports the "conspiracy theory" that all three buildings were taken down by controlled demolition.

From the source:

Frequently Asked Questions: Controlled Demolition 9-11 Research provides abundant evidence and analysis concerning the total destruction of the Twin Towers and Building 7. See this directory. We think that the evidence strongly supports the conclusion that all three buildings were destroyed by planned demolitions, and were not the result of plane crashes and fires. The following questions are frequently asked by people encountering the idea of the controlled demolition of the World Trade Center buildings. Other questions are addressed in other FAQs.

How could the Twin Towers, with so many tenants, and so many columns (240 perimeter columns, and 47 core columns) be wired for a controlled demolition without the operation being noticed?

How could charges have been pre-positioned in the Towers in such a way that the plane crashes and fires wouldn't have set them off?

Supposing that Building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition. Doesn't the fact that the Twin Towers came down in such a different fashion prove that they were not destroyed by controlled demolition?

Even if the Twin Towers were destroyed by explosives, is it correct to call them controlled demolitions when they don't look anything like cases previously seen? And what was controlled about the Towers being exploded?

Does the controlled demolition of the Twin Towers by insiders necessarily mean that the attack was an inside job? Is is possible that the Towers were prepared for demolition years in advance as part of a contingency plan to bring the towers down symmetrically should a terrorist attack threaten to topple them?

How could the Twin Towers, with so many tenants, and so many columns (240 perimeter columns, and 47 core columns) be wired for a controlled demolition without the operation being noticed?

This question assumes that the demolition of the Twin Towers would have to be set up like a conventional commercial one, with fuses and large numbers of cutting charges. First, note that the demolitions could have been controlled using wireless detonators, which have been commercially available for decades. Attack Scenario 404 describes how the charges could have been activated via radio signals in a precise fashion controlled by a computer.

Second, the demolitions may have been achieved without accessing the perimeter columns. The fact that the Twin Towers exploded into vast clouds of pulverized concrete, hurling steel assemblies up to 500 feet in all directions shows that they were destroyed with much more energy than a conventional demolition -- perhaps two orders of magnitude more. That gave the planners much more leeway in the placement of charges required to totally destroy the buildings. The core structures contained the building services such as elevators, and plumbing and cabling shafts. It would have been easy for people who controlled building security to surreptitiously install devices in hidden portions of the cores. Any such job would have been far simpler than the structural retrofit of the CitiCorp Tower in New York, carried out unbeknownst to the building's very tenants. 1

Third, explosive devices could have been disguised as or concealed within legitimate equpiment, such as smoke alarms or ceiling tiles, and installed by workers oblivious to their surreptitious function. Numerous such possibilities are afforded by the properties of energetic materials.

How could charges have been pre-positioned in the Towers in such a way that the plane crashes and fires wouldn't have set them off?

There are several possible answers to this. First, some charges may indeed have been set off by the crashes but masked by the huge fireballs created by the combustion of aerosolized jet fuel. Second, explosives can be engineered so that heat alone will not detonate them. The high explosive RDX, for example, requires the simultaneous delivery of high heat and pressure to induce detonation. 2 Third, the charges could have been arranged so as to avoid the regions that the attack planners expected to take direct hits from the aircraft, given that the planes may have been flown by GPS-equipped autopilots providing targeting accuracy to within a few meters. Fourth, it is relatively easy to design casings for explosives that would allow them to survive even the most violent assaults. The casings of jetliners' black boxes protect their contents from impact accelerations of 3,400 Gs and from temperatures of 2,000ºF for up to 30 minutes.

The first and second possibilities are probably what happened. Prior to 2001, the national laboratories and Pentagon contractors had developed advanced energetic nanocomposites which, in addition to providing much higher energy densities than conventional high explosives, were engineered to be very stable and require highly specific conditions for detonation.

Supposing that Building 7 was brought down by controlled demolition. Doesn't the fact that the Twin Towers came down in such a different fashion prove that they were not destroyed by controlled demolition?

Controlled demolitions can be engineered in many different ways. Normally, the purpose of a controlled demolition is to remove a structure while avoiding damage to adjacent structures, and to do so economically. Typically, a tall building is demolished by placing thousands of cutter charges adjacent to columns throughout the building, then detonating them in a precise order, starting with interior structures, and progressing outward and upward. Destroying the interior columns allows unsupported weight to pull the exterior inward, and destroying the building from the ground up allows the weight of the building to be harnessed to do much of the destruction. The result is an implosion, producing a vertical collapse and a consolidated rubble pile.

The objective of controlled demolition applied to the Twin Towers was the decidedly different one of producing collapses that could be explained as having been caused by the aircraft crashes and fire damage. Hence, the destruction was started around the crash zones and then moved downward.

Even if the Twin Towers were destroyed by explosives, is it correct to call them controlled demolitions when they don't look anything like cases previously seen? And what was controlled about the Towers being exploded?

The "collapses" were, in some respects, very chaotic events which don't look very controlled. However, they must have been carefully engineered. In addition to having to determine the quantities and placement of explosives necessary to achieve the total destruction of the Towers, the planners had to plan the timing of their detonations with some precision. It is clear from photographs and videos of the Towers' destruction that the zones of destruction moved downward at about the same rates as the exploding rubble clouds descended, so that these zones remained concealed by the clouds. If these zones of destruction moved either too quickly or too slowly, they would have become visible below or above the rubble clouds, blatantly contradicting the official account of gravity-driven collapses.

More on this topic can be found in the FAQ: Controlled Demolition With Aluminothermics, which is part of the essay Explosives Found in World Trade Center Dust -- an exposition describing the discovery of active thermitic materials in small chips in the dust.

LOL!!!!!!!! Your source SUPPORTS what the lot of us "truthers" have been stating. This is YOUR source AG. OMG.......this is TOO funny. In a very precise and scientific manner they debunk a truck load of the idiocy you have been claiming on these 911 threads.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   1:01:44 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#413. To: AGAviator (#410)

That does not translate into my endorsing or buying anything else he states

Oh if your source is so great, why cherry pick? Why is one little article solid information and facts and not all the others from the SAME SOURCE.

These are the people you are basing all of your debunking upon. Come on now, how can the fellow be credible in one area and not in another. That right there is crazy talk. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   1:04:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#414. To: AGAviator (#411)

It's obvious from the conflicting witness testimony that there were TWO aircraft converging on the Pentagon at the same time that morning, and it's obvious there was "evidence" sprinkled onto the scene.

It's obvious that Hanjour couldn't have flown a 757 in the manner exhibited, and it's obvious that there should have been 10,000 or so gallons of jet fuel splashed all over the front of the Pentagon wall, yet wasn't.

So all you have are ad hominems and disinfo, and lots of spin.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   1:05:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#415. To: FormerLurker (#405) (Edited)

The damage to the pentagon doesn't match any plane IMO.

I still think it was explosives planted inside. With the top brass in the Pentagon at the time, it would be way too risky to have a plane hit the Pentagon or even a missile. The first reports to those that work in the Pentagon said it was a bomb that went off. No plane was mentioned to them. If a plane, any plane, hit the Pentagon it could be blamed on the terrorists and they could release the video. They insist it was a plane that hit the Pentagon, but yet they refuse to release the video tapes. It doesn't add up at all. They would have no reason to keep these tapes from the public if it was a plane as they said it was. Explosives planted in the Pentagon would be much less risky and would control the damage to a limited area. It just makes the most sense to me that they tried to time the bombs to go off as flight 77 made its fly over of the Pentagon to give the illusion that it crashed for witnesses.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-26   1:11:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#416. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#412)

You see your site link supports the "conspiracy theory" that all three buildings were taken down by controlled demolition.

From the source:

You simply don't get it.

The only statement I am making by quoting 911 Research.com, is the "no plane" theories for the Pentagon attack, which all you Half Truthers have been working yourselves into a lather about, are so wacky that even a full on CT'er will not get anywhere close to them.

That's it. I don't have to buy into anything else he says, or even his reasons for taking his position(s).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   1:16:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#417. To: RickyJ (#415)

It was a missile.


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-26   1:17:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#418. To: RickyJ (#415)

The only problem with that theory is that there are two sets of witnesses. One group witnessed an aircraft approach from north of the Citgo station, whereas another group witnessed an aircraft approach from south of the Citgo station, and both groups claim the aircraft they saw hit the Pentagon.

The official story clings to the southerly path, and the damage reflects that approach as well. If so, then what came from the north?

Chances are it was in fact Flight 77, and a sleight of hand was performed where the plane passed over the Pentagon just after the other aircraft, approaching from the south hit.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   1:19:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#419. To: Original_Intent, christine (#416) (Edited)


We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-26   1:19:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#420. To: FormerLurker, Buckeroo, turtle (#414)

It's obvious from the conflicting witness testimony that there were TWO aircraft converging on the Pentagon at the same time that morning,

Yes there were.

One was the hijacked 757 piloted by Hanjour.

The other was a C-130 vectored by ATC to see what the hijacked plane was up to.

The C-130 got there about 30 seconds too late and reported "Sir, the 757 has crashed into the Pentagon."

He likely then flew over the crash and some witnesses may have confused his flight path with the 757's flight path. I would have to do more research on that matter to come to any additional conclusions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   1:20:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#421. To: AGAviator (#420)

Yes there were.

One was the hijacked 757 piloted by Hanjour.

The other was a C-130 vectored by ATC to see what the hijacked plane was up to.

The C-130 got there about 30 seconds too late and reported "Sir, the 757 has crashed into the Pentagon."

He likely then flew over the crash and some witnesses may have confused his flight path with the 757's flight path. I would have to do more research on that matter to come to any additional conclusions.

You know damn well that's not what the witnesses reported, nor what I'm talking about. The official story, the one you cling to, requires the aircraft to have approached from south of the Citgo station.

HOWEVER, there are more than a few witnesses who state that they saw an American Airlines jet fly an approach from NORTH of the Citgo station.

I've posted this video for you more than once, here it is again...

More than likely, the C-130 was sent up as a diversion, and that ploy is EXACTLY what you are trying to sell here.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   1:49:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#422. To: FormerLurker (#418) (Edited)

This theory is well supported by interviews of employees in the Pentagon at the time of the attacks.

from: 911caper.com/2010/07/07/the-pentagon-attack-papers/

Converging Lines of Evidence of a 9:30-to- 9:32 a.m. Violent Event at the Pentagon on September 11, well before the Official Story says anything hit the building:

Multiple standard-issue, battery- and/or electric-operated wall clocks on the walls of the area of the Pentagon attacked on 9/11—including one in the heliport just outside the west wedge—were stopped between 9:30 and 9:32-1/2 by a violent event, almost certainly a bomb or bombs inside the building and/or in a truck or construction trailer parked right outside the west face. The first Associated Press report, in fact, stated that the Pentagon had been damaged by a “booby trapped truck.” The Navy posted the stopped heliport clock on an official website and another of the stopped clocks was in the 9/11 display at the Smithsonian Institution.2 These are just some of the west-section Pentagon clocks – as well as an inside-the-building victim’s wrist watch (see below) – that were stopped between 9:30 and 9:32-1/2 on September 11.

April Gallop, an Army employee with a Top Secret clearance, was at her desk in the Army administrative offices in the west section of the Pentagon on 9/11, the area of the building most heavily destroyed and with the most casualties, when what she said sounded and felt “like a bomb” went off. “Being in the Army with the training I had, I know what a bomb sounds and acts like, especially the aftermath, and it sounded and acted like a bomb,” Gallop told the author in an under-oath videotaped interview.2A “There was no plane or plane parts inside the building, and no smell of jet fuel.” In those two hours of under-oath videotaped testimony, Gallop states that the explosion went off at the precise instant she hit the ‘power on’ button on her computer in the Army administrative area, to which she had just returned that morning after months of pregnancy and childbirth leave, and that the explosion stopped her wrist watch just after 9:30 a.m. 2B She has kept the stopped wrist watch in a safe deposit box as evidence of the exact moment of the initial explosion.

The FAA’s [Federal Aviation Administration] Timeline document “Executive Summary—Chronology of a Multiple Hijacking Crisis––September 11, 2001” includes: “0932: ATC (Air Traffic Control) AEA reports aircraft crashes into west side of Pentagon.”3 The time is the critical fact here, not the claimed cause, which was taken from the official story and not the result of any ATC eyewitnesses.

Denmark’s soon-to-be Foreign Minister Per Stig Moller was in a building in Washington, D.C. on 9/11 from which he looked out, heard an explosion and saw the smoke first rise from the Pentagon. He immediately looked at his wrist watch, which read 9:32 am. He gave radio interviews in Denmark the next morning in which he stated that the Pentagon had been attacked at 9:32.4.

On August 27, 2002, then White House Counsel and now Attorney General Alberto Gonzales gave an audiotaped Secretary of the Navy lecture at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif., a DoD educational institution, in which he clearly and explicitly states that “The Pentagon was attacked at 9:32”. A tape of this segment of his talk was played at the 9/11 Emergency Truth Convergence at American University in Washington, D.C. in July 2005, and is on the public record.

The Pentagon was attacked by bomb(s) between 9:30 and 9:32 a.m., possibly followed by an impact from an airborne object significantly smaller than Flight 77, a Boeing 757.

We have already seen that Army employee April Gallop, whose watch was stopped by the violent event at the Pentagon shortly after 9:30, says that her military training and experience led her to immediately determine the source of the initial explosion was a bomb.

I have interviewed an Army auditor from Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey, who was on temporary duty assignment at the Pentagon before, on and after 9/11. He was in the Army financial management spaces only minutes before the Pentagon explosion on the morning of 9/11. He had just returned to his temporary office on the ground floor of the adjacent south side of the Pentagon by the cafeteria when he heard an explosion and felt the building shake.

Immediately afterwards, he said, hundreds of panicked Pentagon personnel ran by him down the corridor just outside his office and out the South Entrance, yelling “Bombs!” and “A bomb went off!” The witness has requested that his name not be used in this summary, but is willing to testify to a grand jury or independent official investigation.

This Army financial management/audit area is part of, or contiguous to, the Army personnel offices, which was one of two main west section offices heavily destroyed in the Pentagon attack, the other being the Naval Command Center. The day before 9/11, September 10, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld held a press conference at which he acknowledged that the Pentagon was “missing”—could not account for and needed to “find”—$2.3 Trillion dollars (other reports said $2.6 Trillion). Were the auditors who could “follow the money,” and the computers whose data could help them do it, intentionally targeted? It is worth noting that the Pentagon’s top financial officer at the time, Dov Zakheim, who also acknowledged the “missing” trillions, had a company that specializes in aircraft remotecontrol technology. As remnants found in the Pentagon wreckage have been identified as the front-hub assembly of the front compressor of a JT8D turbojet engine used in the A-3 Sky Warrior jet fighter,5 and as Air Force A-3 Sky Warriors—normally piloted planes—were secretly retrofitted to be remote-controlled drones and fitted with missiles in a highly compartmented operation at an airport near Ft. Collins-Loveland Municipal Airport in Colorado in the months before 9/11,6 the question further arises as to whether Pentagon auditors and their computerized data were intentionally targeted on 9/11.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-26   1:52:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#423. To: RickyJ (#422)

It is worth noting that the Pentagon’s top financial officer at the time, Dov Zakheim, who also acknowledged the “missing” trillions, had a company that specializes in aircraft remotecontrol technology. As remnants found in the Pentagon wreckage have been identified as the front-hub assembly of the front compressor of a JT8D turbojet engine used in the A-3 Sky Warrior jet fighter,5 and as Air Force A-3 Sky Warriors

Thanks for the info Ricky. I had read years ago that at least some of the parts appeared to be from a Sky Warrior or something similar, is there confirmation of that?

Good info on the bomb claims too.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   3:35:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#424. To: FormerLurker, RickyJ (#423)

The JT8D & A3 Skywarrior
Pentagon Theory
What is it and where did it come from?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-26   4:04:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#425. To: Original_Intent (#402)

Somehow it seems appropriate that you would be a dope smoker.

I'll smoke to that. ;-)


"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams

Rotara  posted on  2010-07-26   4:45:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#426. To: Rotara (#333)

Thank you.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-26   6:10:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#427. To: abraxas (#403)

Perhaps, you should research your own sources more fully. Enjoy your fatty while you check out the recommened Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth who call bovine excrement on those buildings falling from fire.

LOL!!!

Hoist with his own petar(d). LOL! Now that right there is funny.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-26   8:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#428. To: FormerLurker (#405)

As I told you when you tried to insult me in a private message - I worked with a person who was in Bethesda MD with her husband at the time for Oracle Training and who on their way to the Pentagon Mall observed the plane strike the Pentagon. I think I'll take her word over your government disinformation/propaganda.

bush_is_a_moonie  posted on  2010-07-26   9:56:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#429. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#428) (Edited)

Your argument seems to be, well you know somebody who was there, and yeah, there was a big boom, so it HAS to be like the TV tells you.

You remind me of war, who insisted it HAD to be those crazy 19 arabs that did it, because he was in New York City that day it happened.

Again, yes, there were aircraft, TWO aircraft actually, one which was probably Flight 77, and the other, something else.

BTW, do YOU believe 19 angry arabs were behind it all?

And what part of HANJOUR COULD NOT FLY don't you understand?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   10:21:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#430. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#428)

Oh and BTW, what happened to the jet fuel from the left wing of the aircraft, if Flight 77 did indeed hit the Pentagon? If the wing had hit the Pentagon, the 5000 or so gallons of fuel from that wing would have sprayed all over the Pentagon wall in the section of the building, yet there WAS no fuel fire there outside the building.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   10:28:53 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#431. To: FormerLurker, turtle, bucker00 (#421)

I've posted this video for you more than once, here it is again...

Forensic evidence, and the testimony of 100 impartial eyewitnesses, trumps testimony of 2 witnesses even if they happen to be police officers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   10:40:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#432. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#428)

One last thing. IF you truly question the official 911 legend, you are doing yourself a disservice by closing your mind to the abundant evidence, in fact smoking gun evidence related to the Pentagon attack.

It's a victory for the REAL disinfo artists, in that they have tricked you and convinced you that there's nothing to see here, move along...

If you have ever followed my posts starting from FreeRepublic, then LibertyPost, and now here, you should know that I've presented reports and articles that shed light on various controversial topics, 9/11 being one of those topics.

I've never seen much of anything you've posted, although on LP you did appear to be somewhat of a open minded poster from what I can rememember. If you truly are the open minded poster I thought you were, take the time to consider the evidence presented here, and don't dismiss it just because your friend thought she saw something hit the Pentagon. Of COURSE something hit the Pentagon, but WHAT hit it is open for debate, and the evidence indicates it was NOT a 757, and even IF it were, it was not Hani Hanjour piloting that aircraft.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   10:42:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#433. To: FormerLurker, Bush_Is_A_Moonie, buckeroo, turtle (#405)

The fact is, Hanjour would NOT and COULD NOT have had even the REMOTEST chance of flying that alleged 757 the way it was flown that day, and the damage to the Pentagon doesn't match that of a Boeing 757.

You can't change those facts, all you have is spin.

Once again you make assertions with no proof or rebuttals of your own.

Denying existing facts is not sufficient for evidential conclusions. You must supply your own independent verifiable facts to withstand equal or greater scrutiny.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   10:43:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#434. To: AGAviator (#431)

Forensic evidence, and the testimony of 100 impartial eyewitnesses, trumps testimony of 2 witnesses even if they happen to be police officers.

There were more than just those two police officers that witnessed the aircraft approach from north of the Citgo station.

Besides, those two officers were NOT at the same location, and they saw the northern approach independently of each other.

Just because the evidence points to something other than what you're selling doesn't mean it can be easily dismissed, it means what you're selling isn't what really happened.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   10:45:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#435. To: FormerLurker (#434)

Just because the evidence points to something other than what you're selling doesn't mean it can be easily dismissed, it means what you're selling isn't what really happened.

"Once again you make assertions with no proof or rebuttals of your own.

Denying existing facts is not sufficient for evidential conclusions. You must supply your own independent verifiable facts to withstand equal or greater scrutiny."

"AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 10:43:10 ET"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   10:51:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#436. To: AGAviator (#433) (Edited)

Once again you make assertions with no proof or rebuttals of your own.

Hanjour's instructors have stated that he was an extremely poor pilot, that he lacked the basic skills required to pilot an aircraft, in fact, one said "he could not fly at all".

I'll take their observations over your unfounded allegations any day of the week.

Denying existing facts is not sufficient for evidential conclusions.

Yet that is the crux of your argument. You deny existing facts, ignore highly credible eyewitness testimony, and then insist that proves you're right.

You must supply your own independent verifiable facts to withstand equal or greater scrutiny.

Besides your unfounded asssertions, what sort of "verifiable facts" have YOU presented? All evidence related to Hanjour's abilites indicates he could NOT have piloted a 757 at all, never mind manuevering it as the alleged Flight 77 was observed to have manuevered the morning of 9/11.

Hell, you won't even acknowledge the OFFICIAL account of how that jet was flown, since it shoots your "he was a bad pilot yet managed to pull it off" story right out of the water.

The lack of jet fuel in the vicinty where the left wing should have struck the Pentagon wall indicates it was NOT a 757 that hit the building. Yet you INSIST it was, because you say so.

Sorry, but I never did believe in faerie tales, not even when I was a kid.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   10:55:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#437. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#428) (Edited)

Oh, and as far as "tying to insult you in a PM", you had already tried to publicly insult me here on this forum. I was rather polite to you, all things considered.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   11:02:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#438. To: Eric Stratton (#260)

B, it was a Boeing 757 in the video

This is what that would look like:

[Not really] New Re-released Pentagon Video : [but] watch it all [anyway]

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-26   11:02:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#439. To: GreyLmist (#438)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-26   12:02:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#440. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, Rotara, IRTorqued, abraxas, all (#431)

I've posted this video for you more than once, here it is again...

Forensic evidence, and the testimony of 100 impartial eyewitnesses, trumps testimony of 2 witnesses even if they happen to be police officers.

Actually no it doesn't. It means that it is an anomalous unconfirmed datum which should be explored, evaluated, and understood in its context compared against the other data. I do not pretend to know the ultimate answer. However, one thing I do know is that there are enough contrary datums to make the "Official Cover Legend™" seem untenable.

So, sound reasoning simply requires that we look at the data in its totality without assuming we know the final answer before we look

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   12:06:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#441. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#427) (Edited)

lol....oh, but now James, he doesn't believe in all that his great debunking source has to say or even the site, just one cherry picked little piece of data.

I find it hysterically funny. He has no problems with using TRUTHER sites to support some little aspect of the government fairy tale while ignoring the mountain of information presented to call BS on the bulk of the government theory.

Oh, but he doesn't want to read any of that information, written by scientists, architects and engineers.......hey, it's okay to cherry pick around and within while believing that the lot of us bother to put even an iota of credibility to his posts. Wouldn't want any FACTS to disrupt the fairy tale.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   12:21:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#442. To: Eric Stratton, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, wudidiz, abraxas, christine, all (#439)

The official theory is built for morons and sheep, plain and simple. Those are the people that believe it, morons and sheep.

I think that is a nice summation of the credibility of the "Official Cover Legend™"

In looking at the entire problem globally the first thing that comes to mind is the old axiom of logic:

"If two datums are mutually contradictory the first thing we many know with certainty is that one, or both, are false."

There are simply too many apparently contradictory datums for the "Official Cover Legend™" to be true. Therefore we are left trying to reconstruct, from an artificially (by suppression of information) limited data set. (As well we cannot rule out the possibility that false data was planted to mislead.)

Just given the FBI confiscation of all the videos from surrounding cameras we can infer that they contained, or were likely to contain, images which would have been directly contradictory to the "Official Cover Legend™".

We know from his training record and the testimony of his instructors etc., that Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor had never evidenced the level of piloting skill or knowledge to have taken flight 77 through its apparent flight path and into the Pentagon wall. This particularly applies to the ability to navigate the aircraft from Ohio to the Pentagon, several States away, locate and close on a target, the Pentagon, put a Jumbo Jet through maneuvers that would tax the skills of a Master Pilot, and then make a theoretically impossible final approach at 460 Knots (530 M.P.H.) 20 fee above the ground (leaving about a 2.5 foot clearance above ground for the engine cowlings) for a mile, to precisely impact the Pentagon on the first floor of a 71 foot high wall.

We also know from the accounts that apparently Flt. 77 disappears from Radar somewhere over Ohio only to miraculously reappear on its final approach to the Pentagon. I am not sure what to make of that datum. I could speculate, but it would be speculation based on incomplete data.

We know that the impact occurred on the side of the Pentagon directly on the opposite side, as far as it could be, from the offices housing all of the Brass despite the fact that the initial approach would have made that the easiest target, afforded the largest target, based on the angle of approach, and the one most likely taken by a suicide pilot of very limited skill who was just trying to hit the building anywhere. Also "coincidentall" the one spot chosen is the one most convenient to any cover up of the missing 2.3 TRILLION dollars that had been reported unaccounted for just the day before.

Then we have the data of conflicting reports on the final approach path of the aircraft to its impact point. There is the testimony of the two officers as well as witnesses claiming to see a plane continuing low over the other side after the supposed impact of flight 77. The C-130 does not credibly account for this as it its closest approach was a couple of miles and too high.

So as we see we have a data set with conflicting and apparently mutually contradictory datums. So, the first thing we can reasonably conclude is that the official story is false or incomplete, and that the data necessary to resolve the conflict, the 32 videos confiscated and hidden by the FBI the afternoon of 911 (How did they know where ALL the videos were just hours after the event?) is being held under lock and key 9 years after the event.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   12:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#443. To: GreyLmist (#438)

One of the stray thoughts that occurs to me is that this video release, a very short clip, is just the kind of thing that could be created in a super computer by "Industrial Light and Magic" or their government equivalent. I'm not saying it was mind you - just a stray speculation.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   12:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#444. To: Original_Intent (#442)

then make a theoretically impossible final approach at 460 Knots (530 M.P.H.) 20 fee above the ground (leaving about a 2.5 foot clearance above ground for the engine cowlings) for a mile, to precisely impact the Pentagon on the first floor of a 71 foot high wall.

Actually it allegedly flew at tree top level (50-60 feet) for a mile before descending to 20 feet off the ground for the last tenth of a mile or so.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   12:54:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#445. To: Original_Intent (#442)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-26   12:56:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#446. To: Original_Intent (#442)

(How did they know where ALL the videos were just hours after the event?)

If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   13:40:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#447. To: abraxas (#441)

Wouldn't want any FACTS to disrupt the fairy tale.

Yes, that would be harble and tarble to let facts get in the way of a moronic tale like the Official Conspiracy Theory™.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-26   15:06:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#448. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#446)

If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.

There would be no better commercial to market the war on terror than those tapes, if infact, they actually confirmed the governement theory.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   15:10:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#449. To: FormerLurker (#444)

then make a theoretically impossible final approach at 460 Knots (530 M.P.H.) 20 fee above the ground (leaving about a 2.5 foot clearance above ground for the engine cowlings) for a mile, to precisely impact the Pentagon on the first floor of a 71 foot high wall.

Actually it allegedly flew at tree top level (50-60 feet) for a mile before descending to 20 feet off the ground for the last tenth of a mile or so.

Thanks for the correction. Don't want to give the shills any quibble room.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   15:39:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#450. To: FormerLurker, abraxas, wudidiz, IRTorqued, Kamala, Eric Stratton, christine, AllTheKingsHorses, all (#446)

(How did they know where ALL the videos were just hours after the event?)

If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.

Exactly. Just as the planes hitting the towers was replayed on some channel every 20 minutes 24/7 (to maximize the PysOp/Psychological impact) for a couple of weeks. The PTB well know the impact such an event, and its continuous repetition, has on the naive public who took the "Official Fairy Tale™" at face value. It makes them numb and malleable from the horror. That is how they were able to roll out the ten thousand page Un-Patriot act the next week and ram it through Congress without a single Congresscritter either getting a copy or reading the bill. It is also how their wars, which they had been shopping to India as early as June of 2001, were "Marketed" to the American Sheeple.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   15:51:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#451. To: abraxas, FormerLurker, wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, CadetD, all (#448)

If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.

There would be no better commercial to market the war on terror than those tapes, if infact, they actually confirmed the governement theory.

Which is why it is reasonable and rational to infer that they DO NOT.

In fact we can further infer that the contradiction on at least one, or more, of the videotapes is so strong and obvious that they dare not release it or the entire "Official Cover Story™" would immediately collapse.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   15:55:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#452. To: Original_Intent, abraxas, wudidiz, TwentyTwelve, CadetD, all (#451)

Which is why it is reasonable and rational to infer that they DO NOT.

In fact we can further infer that the contradiction on at least one, or more, of the videotapes is so strong and obvious that they dare not release it or the entire "Official Cover Story™" would immediately collapse.

Yep, it'd be sort of hard to explain why there are two aircraft approaching the Pentagon, where one is the 757 and the other is a drone of some type.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   16:21:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#453. To: FormerLurker (#436) (Edited)

Once again you make assertions with no proof or rebuttals of your own.

Hanjour's instructors have stated that he was an extremely poor pilot, that he lacked the basic skills required to pilot an aircraft, in fact, one said "he could not fly at all".

The principal person who refused to rent to Hanjour said although he was a crummy pilot as far as takeoffs, landings, and English was concerned, there was no question Hanjour could have piloted a hijacked plane, and crashed it into the target.

As I repeatedly note, he didn't even do that too well, but he did manage to salvage something out of a botched attempt to hit the north facing offices.

I'll take their observations over your unfounded allegations any day of the week.

103 eyewitnesses are not unfounded allegations.

Denying existing facts is not sufficient for evidential conclusions.

Yet that is the crux of your argument. You deny existing facts, ignore highly credible eyewitness testimony, and then insist that proves you're right.

103 eyewitnesses are credible eyewitness testimony. So are 2 police officers. It is not uncommon to have variations in eyewitness accounts. That is where forensic analysis and careful reconstruction of statements comes in.

Besides your unfounded asssertions, what sort of "verifiable facts" have YOU presented?

All evidence related to Hanjour's abilites indicates he could NOT have piloted a 757 at all, never mind manuevering it as the alleged Flight 77 was observed to have manuevered the morning of 9/11.

Hell, you won't even acknowledge the OFFICIAL account of how that jet was flown, since it shoots your "he was a bad pilot yet managed to pull it off" story right out of the water.

The supposed "fighter pilot turn" of the 757 did not even generate 1 G of extra gravitational pull on the cockpit. Boeing aircraft have been observed to have withstood 3.9 G's in turbulence with zero structural damage.

To pass a private pilot test a student pilot must do a banked 60 degree turn rolling out within + or - 200 feet of altitude the turn started. A 60 degree banked turn generates total 2 G's of force right there. So everybody who has any kind of license has demonstrated on a check ride he or she can control an aircraft generating 2 G of force, and the 757 descending turn did not even generate that much force.

The claims of "fighter pilot maneuvers" are from people who are not thinking critically. As one of my ground school instructors said, even though airline pilots are expected to fly their aircraft so they don't spill passenger drinks, the aircraft themselves are engineered to withstand far more abrupt maneuvers.

The lack of jet fuel in the vicinty where the left wing should have struck the Pentagon wall indicates it was NOT a 757 that hit the building. Yet you INSIST it was, because you say so.

As I have already said, in a 450 MPH crash of a 200,000 pound aircraft there are lots of unprecedented forces of momentum, kinetic energy, and fuel explosions at work, and to simply deny that something could have happened without knowledge and reconstruction of all factors at work is not appropriate methodology.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   16:34:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#454. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, abraxas, wudidiz, christine, all (#453)

The supposed "fighter pilot turn" of the 757 did not even generate 1 G of extra gravitational pull on the cockpit. Boeing aircraft have been observed to have withstood 3.9 G's in turbulence with zero structural damage.

To pass a private pilot test a student pilot must do a banked 60 degree turn rolling out within + or - 200 feet of altitude the turn started. A 60 degree banked turn generates total 2 G's of force right there. So everybody who has any kind of license has demonstrated on a check ride he or she can control an aircraft generating 2 G of force, and the 757 descending turn did not even generate that much force.

I can't resist. That is such a classic Strawman Argument combined with a Red Herring that it's like swinging on a hanging Curve Ball.

The turn as a point of fact generated about .52 G's. That the Boeing 757 can has withstood up to 3.9 G's in an emergency maneuver is irrelevant and is a Red Herring which diverts from the point at play. The question is not whether the plane could withstand a 7,000 foot spiraling descent, in 2.5 minutes, it is that is a maneuver which is beyond, well beyond, the known competencies of that known incompetent pilot Hani Hanjour.

What a pilot has to do to pass a test in a light propeller driven plane is irrelevant to what that same incompetent could do flying a Jumbo Jet, which he had never flown before and in fact said pilot, Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor, had NEVER flown ANY Jet Aircraft of ANY kind, at ANY time. Your argument is the classic Strawman Argument.

Not bad. Two paragraphs, two fallacies. I didn't bother to analyze the rest of your "argument" as two fallacies, upon which the entire argument hangs, is enough to consign it most appropriately to the shitter, and then flushed with extreme prejudice.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   16:53:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#455. To: FormerLurker (#446)

If what they claimed happened actually DID happen the way they say it did, we would have seen that footage on every network news channel 24/7 starting on the evening of 9/11/2001.

There would be no reason not to show it. They sure didn't mind showing the twin towers get hit, so there is no good reason to not show it if a plane struck the Pentagon. That's why I think no plane hit it. I don't think it was a missile either because of the neat, almost carved out holes in the Pentagon, especially the last hole. If it were a missile there would have been some evidence in the courtyard where it landed, it wouldn't have just vanished into thin air. And a plane doing those aviation tricks would be hard enough for a pro in the cockpit, never mind one on the ground trying to do the same thing remotely. There would be too much chance for error, and the planners of 9/11 weren't leaving anything to chance on their big day. If 9/11 didn't go as planned and they were exposed they would all be dead men. They had to do it right the first time. The bombs could have been planted in the Pentagon and they might have never intended on hitting it with a plane, only making it look as if a plane hit it. The other plane people saw could have been the air force jet arriving later, after the alleged terror attack on the Pentagon occurred.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-26   18:09:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#456. To: bush_is_a_moonie (#428)

I worked with a person who was in Bethesda MD with her husband at the time for Oracle Training and who on their way to the Pentagon Mall observed the plane strike the Pentagon.

While they were driving? Kind of hard to observe that while also driving 60+ MPH on a highway with traffic. They saw bits and pieces would probably be more accurate, the plane actually hitting the Pentagon I doubt they saw, cause no tapes have been released that show this. There is no reason to not release the tapes if a plane hit it, none whatsoever.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-26   18:45:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#457. To: AGAviator (#453)

The principal person who refused to rent to Hanjour said although he was a crummy pilot as far as takeoffs, landings, and English was concerned, there was no question Hanjour could have piloted a hijacked plane, and crashed it into the target.

Basically anybody off the street, given the motivation and ability to enter the cockpit and overtake the flight crew, could grab the controls and crash a plane.

Thing is, Hanjour didn't crash it, he FLEW IT from Ohio to Washington DC, descended into a precision turn, and flew it at an incredible speed of over 400 mph at treetop level, then descended down to 20 feet off the Pentagon lawn and flew it level into the Pentagon wall, which was only 71 feet high.

Some of his instructors said he could fly a CESSNA single engine straight once in the air, other than that, he basically couldn't fly at all.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   19:16:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#458. To: RickyJ (#455)

The other plane people saw could have been the air force jet arriving later, after the alleged terror attack on the Pentagon occurred.

Nah, the C-130 showed up after the aircraft which witnesses saw had already hit the Pentagon.

It had to have been some sort of drone, loaded with explosives perhaps, or maybe even armed with a missile which it could have fired immediately before impact.

There would be too much chance for error, and the planners of 9/11 weren't leaving anything to chance on their big day. If 9/11 didn't go as planned and they were exposed they would all be dead men. They had to do it right the first time.

There's a LOT that happened that day that if it didn't go off just right, would have made them all dead men.

I do find it interesting that the Pentagon witnesses all report a time of 9:32 where the earliest the aircraft is said to have hit was 9:37.

Something definitely doesn't add up, and there could well have been explosives involved to ensure the pesky accountants and their computers bit the dust, who knows...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   19:25:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#459. To: AGAviator (#453)

As I have already said, in a 450 MPH crash of a 200,000 pound aircraft there are lots of unprecedented forces of momentum, kinetic energy, and fuel explosions at work, and to simply deny that something could have happened without knowledge and reconstruction of all factors at work is not appropriate methodology.

There is no hole, and no jet fuel fire. The wings would have been ripped to shreds upon hitting a solid brick wall reinforced with steel and kevlar, and the fuel would have splattered all over the Pentagon wall.

Yet that didn't happen.

In fact, if you closely, the windows in the section of building where the wing is alleged to have impacted aren't even broken.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   19:30:45 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#460. To: AGAviator (#453)

The claims of "fighter pilot maneuvers" are from people [some 4um posters] who are not thinking critically.

Man, this claim goes back to "Hanjour couldn't have performed those antics because he wasn't a licensed pilot" ... and if it wasn't those exact words it was "prove his credentials" ... "strawman argument" ...and so forth.

Yet, no one has said he was a good pilot.... some of these folks twist their own words as to make the opposing argument look like nothing compared to the off-the-walls, the lies and the innuendo.

Man... how do you keep up with their continuous "fork tongues?"

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   19:35:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#461. To: AGAviator (#453)

As I repeatedly note, he didn't even do that too well, but he did manage to salvage something out of a botched attempt to hit the north facing offices.

That is such a ridiculous statement, only a REALLY ignorant person would state it, or a blatent liar.

He was LINED UP to dive into the Pentagon where he was heading straight towards the high value section of the building, but TURNED the plane around while descending, and flew at treetop level for a mile in order to ultimately hit the least occupied section.

If it were Hanjour flying the plane, he COULD have just crashed it like you claim he COULD have done, simply by decreasing speed and diving towards the Pentagon roof, which is about the area of 22 football fields, rather than performing a precision manuever to line up with a 71 foot tall target at 530 mph.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   19:36:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#462. To: AGAviator (#453) (Edited)

To pass a private pilot test a student pilot must

Be able to speak and understand English, which he could barely do. He did poorly in flight school because he couldn't understand the instructors, and was even offered to use a translator, even though that's against FAA rules.

From the reports of most of his instructors, his flying was worse than his English, and he was basically totally incompetent behind the controls of a Cessna, never mind a jumbo jet.

And as OI stated, he NEVER flew a jet before that day.

What it comes down to is that it was obviously NOT Hanjour flying that plane.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   19:39:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#463. To: AGAviator (#453) (Edited)

The claims of "fighter pilot maneuvers" are from people who are not thinking critically.

So all of the senior air traffic controllers who were there at Dulles International Airport "weren't thinking critically", you are smarter and know more than them, even though they were there in the control tower, but you weren't.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   19:41:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#464. To: AGAviator (#325)

It looks to me like the 2nd page of those documents you posted shows that the Commercial Certification/Rating (Piper aircraft used) expired on Leap Year day 2/29/00, a little over a year and a half before 9/11.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-26   19:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#465. To: FormerLurker (#463)

So all of the senior air traffic controllers who were there at Dulles International Airport "weren't thinking critically", you are smarter and know more than them, even though they were there in the control tower, but you weren't.

LOL, you couldn't have shredded that ball of yarn quicker had you snuck in a box-cutter (or utility knife, as everyone I know called them prior to 911)

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   19:53:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#466. To: GreyLmist (#464)

It looks to me like the 2nd page of those documents you posted shows that the Commercial Certification/Rating (Piper aircraft used) expired on Leap Year day 2/29/00, a little over a year and a half before 9/11.

Nobody ever said that Hanjour didn't have or possess an active pilot's license. What seems amiss id that FormerLurker said Hanjour didn't possess one.

Now, what this all means is FormerLurker doesn't know much about flight training and Hanjour OBVIOUSLY went through flight training to receive certification EVEN IF IT WAS INSTRUMENTATION.

SO, I don't understand why you are posting all kinds of links and threads towards his certification when ONLY FL and his pal, O_I said he wasn't qualified to begin with.

The point is moot. Hanjour went through flight training. FL and O_I both lied or are ignorant becasue of their conspiracy threads.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   19:57:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#467. To: FormerLurker, RickyJ (#458)

There's a LOT that happened that day that if it didn't go off just right, would have made them all dead men.

And not everything did go right.

William Rodriguez got out alive and was able to testify that bombs went off before the first plane impact.

Barry Jennings got out alive and was able to testify to bombs going off long before WTC 7 collapsed.

The top of the South Tower (which was hit after the North Tower) began to topple and so the South Tower had to be brought down prematurely, before the North Tower which took a more direct hit on the central core, at the 56 minute point. That is a glaring outpoint. The South Tower was hit second, took less damage, and yet collapsed first.

The "Dancing Israelis" were arrested set up and filming an event "that nobody knew was coming".

The warning to employees at Odigo two hours before the first plane hit.

The dog that did not bark - none of the pilots on any of the 4 Jets gave a hijack alert - something which takes about 2 or 3 seconds and which they are drilled in. No pilot gave a voice warning that they were being hijacked. The impossible cell phone calls - which Ted Olson blew by contradicting himself.

Considering the scale of the op there were few outright mistakes from the point of view of the planners and operators of the event, but no operation of this scale goes down without there being telltale signs and they are/were there. It is just that you have to dig for most of them.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   19:58:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#468. To: FormerLurker (#463)

ps: I'm in no mood to go looking up specific posts, but there is NO WAY a 757's wings are just going to fold under like those of a cormorant hungry for herring.

Thanks for pointing that out.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   19:59:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#469. To: FormerLurker (#462)

What it comes down to is that it was obviously NOT Hanjour flying that plane.

So who flew the plane? The TWOOFER_FAERIE?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   19:59:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#470. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, christine, abraxas, all (#466) (Edited)

The point is moot. Hanjour went through flight training. FL and O_I both lied or are ignorant becasue of their conspiracy threads.

Buckie you are getting desperate. All of your little fantasies and talking points have been demolished and so now you have to lie by accusing others of lying since you have no data, no facts, no case, and nothing upon which to stand.

At no time has either FL or myself said that Hanjour/Hanjoor had not had training. It is simply that he was a poor student, barely spoke English, and by the testimony of all of his instructors was anywhere from really crappy to outright incompetent as a pilot. And AT NO TIME prior to 911 had he EVER been in the cockpit of a Jet Aircraft, had never flown a Jet Aircraft, and in fact had never flown anything larger than a twin engine, 4 seat, propellor driven, Piper Apache.

So, in your desperation to assert that this incompetent pilot could fly a Jumbo Jet the way The Red Baron flew his Fokker Tri-Plane you have to begin inventing things because you have NO CASE.

Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor may have been many things but a competent pilot, of any size aircraft let alone a Jumbo Jet - something which he had never flown - even in simulation as he trained on a 737 simulator (a much smaller plane - not that he had ever actually flown ANY Jet, at ANY time) he was not. By the testimony both sworn and unsworn without exception EVERY one of his instructors characterized him as unsafe in any aircraft, at any time, or any place. CASE CLOSED.

Now, if you were a man you would apologize for accusing people falsely of lying. However, I suspect little boy that you will not. Thus you will have branded yourself a liar, and a most reprehensible one at that.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   20:12:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#471. To: Original_Intent (#470)

At no time has either FL or myself said that Hanjour/Hanjoor had not had training.

Who said you or FL did, Mr, strawman? Both of you repeatedly said he had no certification.

Either confess your spin or get stay on the roller-coaster. I am tired of YOUR nonsense.... ducking and lying about what you and FL said.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:16:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#472. To: FormerLurker (#462)

What it comes down to is that it was obviously NOT Hanjour flying that plane.

I think at this point that would have to one of the most apparent datums to be inferred from the "discussion" on this thread.

Now, we do not know who was behind the stick, or whether it was done by remote control, but I think the data more than supports that Hanjour/Hanjoor was nowhere near competent to perform the feats of aerobatics with a Jumbo Jet that Flight 77 went through.

Of course the shills will still contest that because they cannot EVER admit that the "Official Fairy Tale™" is wrong in any respect or any detail no matter how small or large, and this is a large one.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   20:19:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#473. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#472)

Now, we do not know who was behind the stick, or whether it was done by remote control, but I think the data more than supports that Hanjour/Hanjoor was nowhere near competent to perform the feats of aerobatics with a Jumbo Jet that Flight 77 went through.

Are you kidding, that's Cessna 101 - take an airliner out for a spin over Ohio and fly it straight back into Pentagon airspace by dead reckoning. Never mind that it sounds too far out for even a Hollywood hack to find believable, I think Buckeroo is ordering you to believe it.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   20:24:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#474. To: buckeroo (#471)

Who said you or FL did, Mr, strawman? Both of you repeatedly said he had no certification.

I think we both contested the point, and also admitted that we were incorrect on that point. Hell, even one of his instructors contested that and called the FAA to check.

Being wrong does not mean one is lying Bucktooth. It means that one was incorrect on one of the points. However, it still does not change the conclusion. Hanjour was not a competent pilot by testimony of every one of his instructors who have testified or spoken without exception. It does not change the FACT that this incompetent pilot had NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time flown ANY Jet Aircraft nor anything larger than a 4 seat, twin engine, propeller driven, Piper Apache.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   20:25:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#475. To: Dakmar (#473)

Are you kidding, that's Cessna 101 - take an airliner out for a spin over Ohio and fly it straight back into Pentagon airspace by dead reckoning. Never mind that it sounds too far out for even a Hollywood hack to find believable, I think Buckeroo is ordering you to believe it.

Just call me "Doubting Thomas". LOL!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   20:29:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#476. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#472)

I think

ROTFL

at this point that would have to one of the

most apparent datums

ROTFL

to be inferred from the "discussion" on this thread.

ROTFL

Now, we do not know who

ROTFL

was behind the stick, or whether it was done by remote control,

but I think

ROTFL

the data more than supports that Hanjour/Hanjoor was nowhere near competent

ROTFL

to perform the feats of aerobatics with a Jumbo Jet that Flight 77 went through.

Of course the shills

ROTFL

will still contest that because they cannot EVER admit that the "Official Fairy Tale™"

ROTFL

is wrong in any respect or any detail no matter how small or large, and this is a large one.

ROTFL....

Not one of your BS was based on FACT, WITNESSES or TRUTH. It was all pure BS .. called speculation and innuendo and deception.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#477. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#474)

I think we both contested the point, and also admitted that we were incorrect on that point.

You didn't address me, did you? I researched yours and FL's crap because you two stole an otherwise fine thread away....

I note you think an aweful lot... but do you have a specific old post to backup your NEW post?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:34:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#478. To: buckeroo (#477)

because you two stole an otherwise fine thread away....

This was your thread? Hallucinate much?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   20:36:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#479. To: AGAviator (#354) (Edited)

Where's your slightest proof of your Mother of All Conspiracies Bean Counters having the slightest evidence of any missing money they could not be kept from revealing short of execution, phony "Mr. Change the Subject" windbag?

"Bean Counters"? That's what you call the ONI Office of Naval Intelligence financial crime investigators?:

Connecting The Dots - Zionists & 911 By Douglas Herman, Exclusive to Rense.com 7-7- 6: "Odds are the SEC records in WTC 7 that were fortuitously destroyed when that building was 'pulled' included this bogus Brady Bond deal," wrote Karl Schwarz.

"Our sources have informed us that there was a group of ONI [Office of Naval Intelligence] working in this part of the Pentagon (that was destroyed) that were investigating the $120 billion Brady Bond scam I have reported on recently."

A masterful crime or a diabolical yet masterful spy operation? Probably both. Instead of a terrorist attack, the crime begins to look like a huge scam with billions in profits and thousands dead. [end excerpt]

911 Staged to Derail ONI Investigation of Nazi Plunder: This report contends that not only were the buildings targets, but that specific offices within each building were the designated targets. These offices unknowingly held information which if exposed, subsequently would expose a national security secret of unimaginable magnitude.

Protecting that secret was the motivation for the September 11th attacks. This report is about that national security secret: its origins and impact. The intent of the report is to provide a context for understanding the events of September 11th rather than to define exactly what happened that day.

Initially, it is difficult to see a pattern to the destruction of September 11th other than the total destruction of the World Trade Center, a segment of the Pentagon, four commercial aircraft and the loss of 2,993 lives. However, if the perceived objective of the attack is re-defined from its commonly suggested ‘symbolic’ designation as either ‘a terrorist attack’ or a ‘new Pearl Harbor,’ and one begins by looking at it as purely a crime with specific objectives (as opposed to a political action), there is a compelling logic to the pattern of destruction.

This article provides research into the early claims by Dick Eastman, Tom Flocco, V.K. Durham and Karl Schwarz that the September 11th attacks were meant as a cover-up for financial crimes being investigated by the Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI), whose offices in the Pentagon were destroyed on September 11th. After six years of research, this report presents corroborating evidence which supports their claims, and proposes a new rationale for the September 11th attacks.

In doing so, many of the anomalies – or inconvenient facts surrounding this event – take on a meaning that is consistent with the claims of Eastman et al. The hypothesis of this report is: the attacks of September 11th were intended to cover-up the clearing of $240 billion dollars in securities covertly created in September 1991 to fund a covert economic war against the Soviet Union, during which ‘unknown’ western investors bought up much of the Soviet industry, with a focus on oil and gas. The attacks of September 11th also served to derail multiple Federal investigations away from crimes associated with the 1991 covert operation. [end excerpts]

I didn't post those references to get your personal opinion about that aspect of the 9/11 research and investigations into motives and whodunnit but as evidence for you to verify that the Office of Naval Intelligence is what you're alluding to when you keep saying "Bean Counters" derisively and dehumanizingly?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-26   20:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#480. To: buckeroo (#477)

Do your own research.

I grant the point. Hani Hanjoor had a Commercial Ticket, one that one of his instructors thought must be a fraud. However, he was NOT licensed to fly a Jet Airliner which requires a certification higher than he had been granted. And again, issue of the commercial ticket aside I defy you to find even one of his instructors that said anything other than he was an incompetent pilot.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   20:40:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#481. To: Dakmar (#478)

This was your thread? Hallucinate much?

Hey dude... I am talking about the demolition thread that went over 1K posts that Christine locked upped.... these two conspiracy parrots, FL and OI.... badgered, wiggled, lied out their teeth until it became vulgar BECAUSE those two liars can't admit anything.

Oh... but they can badger... and move the discussion around into a vicious spin-cycle.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:41:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#482. To: Original_Intent (#480)

I grant the point. Hani Hanjoor had a Commercial Ticket

See how you spun your lies again? ADMIT IT... HANJOUR had a pilot's license which meant he went through FAA certification to include instrumentation training to fly.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:43:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#483. To: buckeroo (#469)

So who flew the plane? The TWOOFER_FAERIE™?

It was somebody or something other than him, that much we can say for certain.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   20:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#484. To: FormerLurker (#461)

If it were Hanjour flying the plane, he COULD have just crashed it like you claim he COULD have done, simply by decreasing speed and diving towards the Pentagon roof, which is about the area of 22 football fields, rather than performing a precision manuever to line up with a 71 foot tall target at 530 mph.

But you know how those suicide bombers/pilots are. They just want to die themselves and don't want to do any more damage or kill anyone else if they can help it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-26   20:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#485. To: GreyLmist (#479)

I'm not disputing your point, because it is a good one and valid. However, it seems that when one peels back the layers of this onion that it likely had multiple motivations. It is likely, given the set up to place the explosives for the demolition of the towers, that 911 was in the planning stages years before Jorge, the little Cretin, Boosch stole office. The financial cover ups are likely an afterthought and affected final target selection, but with WTC 7 they had to "pull" it without the cover of an airplane impact to blame the collapse on. That means it was likely decided to demolish it after the primary plans had already been laid. I suspect that the original intended target for Flight 77 was the Capital Dome but that they changed it to the Pentagram because of the need to cover up the massive thefts.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   20:48:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#486. To: buckeroo (#481)

Oh... but they can badger... and move the discussion around into a vicious spin-cycle.

And put words in other people mouths?

Oh wait, that's you.

And make wild claims about motivations of people they've never met?

Oops, you again, B.

Maybe they try to intimidate posters by falsely implying that they are recipients of special knowledge as to the cause of dozens or even hundreds of posters leaving this site because of me?

You're zero for three, Bucky, want to talk about plans Niagra Falls excursion?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   20:52:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#487. To: FormerLurker (#457)

Thing is, Hanjour didn't crash it, he FLEW IT from Ohio to Washington DC

Why do the shills keep minimizing that little factoid? Not important? Anyone could do it?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-26   20:52:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#488. To: James Deffenbach (#484)

But you know how those suicide bombers/pilots are.

Yeah, a US pilot/SECRET government agent acting clandestine to kill potentially thousands of innocent Americans would sacrifice his own life for the good of the government.

ROTFL...

Do some original research on the psychology of a terrorist. They aren't sane, pal. They die for a over-zealous cause not a government mission. No one in the US government dies for the government.... your point is unreal and sinister.... you read too many comick books and watch too many Hollywood movies.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:53:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#489. To: buckeroo (#482)

I grant the point. Hani Hanjoor had a Commercial Ticket

See how you spun your lies again? ADMIT IT... HANJOUR had a pilot's license which meant he went through FAA certification to include instrumentation training to fly.

Nice try buckie but I'm not buying what you're selling. He was granted a commercial ticket - that's slang for license in case you're unfamiliar with it. Just as I could say My Father had a Commercial Ticket, and a Sea Plane Rating, and a Flight Instructor's Rating/Ticket, etc., ....

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   20:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#490. To: FormerLurker (#458) (Edited)

It had to have been some sort of drone, loaded with explosives perhaps, or maybe even armed with a missile which it could have fired immediately before impact.

If that were the case then could just say this plane hit the Pentagon and still blame the Muslims. They don't need to hide the videos if that is the case. Yes, they have said all along that 77 hit it, but if they knew it was going to be a drone, they could have just said it hit it and shown the video of it. The only reason they have for not showing it is that there was no plane that hit the Pentagon. I don't think it was a missile either. There was no evidence for a missile, and a missile also presents lots of room for error on a day, place, and time where errors could not be tolerated.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-26   20:54:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#491. To: Dakmar (#486)

Where have I placed words into anyone's posts? I take their literal post as a method to understand not just how STUPID they are... but also GULLIBLE.

Again, show me where I have introduced any exaggeration of ANY poster's posts.... (expect that I shall show you the original material they posted...) ... so come clean... little dakmar.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:56:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#492. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#489)

Nice try buckie but I'm not buying what you're selling.

ROTFL

He was granted a commercial ticket - that's slang for license in case you're unfamiliar with it.

ROTFL

Just as I could say My Father had a Commercial Ticket, and a Sea Plane Rating, and a Flight Instructor's Rating/Ticket, etc., ....

ROTFL

More pure BS... everything you say is BS. Now you use "slang" as a method of covering up your own BS.... can't you come clean and admit the GODDAMNED TRUTH?

Hani Hanjour was certified through the FAA.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   20:59:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#493. To: James Deffenbach (#487)

Thing is, Hanjour didn't crash it, he FLEW IT from Ohio to Washington DC

Why do the shills keep minimizing that little factoid? Not important? Anyone could do it?

Yeah, you just have to adjust the little wingy-dealies! It's a lot lot the time I had to grab the keys from my friend Bill and drive the '68 4-4-2 through downtown Kokomo; except that there were street signs and were didn't have to fight off hundreds of passengers with a utility knife. Things might have turned out differently, otherwise.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   21:01:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#494. To: buckeroo (#491)

Where have I placed words into anyone's posts?

You (try to) tell me all the time what I believe. It's funny!

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   21:03:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#495. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, ALL (#471)

Who said you or FL did, Mr, strawman? Both of you repeatedly said he had no certification.

I never definitively stated that he didn't have it, I said he more than likely didn't, since there's no way a person with such total lack of ability SHOULD have had one.

I thought it was either simply alleged that he had one, or that it was a fake, much like his instructors thought that his license had to have been a fake...

From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46

According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45

In fact, I found the above article only after you posted a copy of the actual license, where on the license he spelt his name Hanjoor, not Hanjour, as is widely reported in the media.

As it turns out, sure he had one, but he SHOULDN'T have had one. That raises two possibilies;

  1. Totally inept individuals can easily get private and commercial FAA pilot's licenses, and fly the skies over American and elsewhere
  2. His licenses were issued to him to build up the "legend" of Hani Hanjour, the pilot, in order to pass him off as the "somewhat" competent pilot who "crashed" Flight 77 into the Pentagon
It's just one further indication that something REALLY smells to high heaven in all of this.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:04:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#496. To: buckeroo (#492)

ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL
ROTFL

Is that supposed to prove anything, other than the fact you're trying to be 4um's new BeAChooser?

BeAChooser at least was intelligent, and also had decent manners. You fail in those departments.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:07:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#497. To: buckeroo, Dakmar (#491)

Again, show me where I have introduced any exaggeration of ANY poster's posts...

There's not too many times you DON'T do it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:08:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#498. To: RickyJ (#490)

There was no evidence for a missile, and a missile also presents lots of room for error on a day, place, and time where errors could not be tolerated.

What about the penetration within the Pentagon, and the timing of the blast not coinciding with the time the plane is alleged to have hit?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:10:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#499. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, FormerLurker (#454)

The turn as a point of fact generated about .52 G's.

Which is riduculously low and not even beyond the realm of student pilot competency.

Fighter planes routinely pull turns of 8 or 9 G's. Private pilots must complete a 2 G turn within 200 feet to even get a Single Engine certificate.

That the Boeing 757 can has withstood up to 3.9 G's in an emergency maneuver is irrelevant and is a Red Herring which diverts from the point at play.

Utter nonsense. The point is attempted to be made that this simple 1/2 G turn is somehow a maneuver that pushes the aircraft and its pilot to performance edges a marginal pilot is incapable of achieving. Utterly false.

So a pilot pulling 1/2 G when he needs to do a 2G turn to even get a license is supposed to be "high performance," and a plane pulling 1/2 G's when it can withstand 3.9 G's is also supposed to be "high performance?"

And these 2 facts are supposed to be "irrelevant?"

How about quitting while you're behind, and stop trying to push the threshhold for inane remarks.

The question is not whether the plane could withstand a 7,000 foot spiraling descent, in 2.5 minutes

Yes it is.

Is a maneuver which is beyond, well beyond, the known competencies of that known incompetent pilot Hani Hanjour.

No it isn't. You yourself say it was only 1/2 G. You probably get more G's riding in an elevator.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   21:12:03 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#500. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#495)

I never definitively stated that he didn't have it,

Liar... you barked, begged, claimed .. for Hanjour's records from post#527 for AG to prove. Your personal rantings and ravings went for HUNDREDS of posts throwing the demolition thread off track. It went on until I produced the detailed data at both post #907 & 909. There were over 400 posts dealing with Hanjour because of your insistence, day after day.

Now, even GreyLmist and your own links on several threads, PROVE the details that I took the time to shove down your throat because you said he possessed no certifications at all.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:13:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#501. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach, Original_Intent (#488)

Yeah, a US pilot/SECRET government agent acting clandestine to kill potentially thousands of innocent Americans would sacrifice his own life for the good of the government.

Nobody here has made that claim or raised that possibility, other than you.

It's commonly known that remote control flight of jet aircraft is entirely possible, in fact airliners have been flown remotely, both by NASA and by the military.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:13:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#502. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#500)

Liar... you barked, begged, claimed .. for Hanjour's records

You're the liar bud.

I asked for you to produce the documentation, big deal. Asking for documentation is not a statement, it's a request.

Do you know the difference between a declaration and a question? Did they not teach you that in EE school?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:15:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#503. To: FormerLurker (#496)

BeAChooser at least was intelligent, and also had decent manners. You fail in those departments.

More TWOOFER_FAERIE BS, 'eh? NO FACTS, NO TRUTH, NO WITNESSES ..... JUST PURE BS from you FL.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:15:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#504. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#457)

Thing is, Hanjour didn't crash it, he FLEW IT from Ohio to Washington DC, descended into a precision turn

A .52G turn is not a "precision turn" by any stretch of the imagination, when a student pilot must pull off a full circle 2G banked turn within 200 feet and a few degrees of starting heading, just to get a private pilot license.

The standards for commercial license, which Hanjour had at one time, until he let his medical lapse, are even tighter.

Furthermore the plane was wobbling and clipping items on its way in. It was not head on, or straight and level. The pilot was struggling to control the craft, and wanted speed over control to maximize damage.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   21:17:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#505. To: FormerLurker (#502)

I asked for you to produce the documentation, big deal.

So now it is just NBFD, 'eh? You liar.... I can go back on the demolition thread wherein you made at least two remarcks about Hanjour not having a license or certification... however, it was with AG.... want some BIG RED LIPSTICK TO WEAR on your on lying lips?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#506. To: buckeroo (#500)

PROVE the details that I took the time to shove down your throat because you said he possessed no certifications at all.

Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license. I said I didn't THINK he did since he certainly wasn't qualified to have one, so stop putting words into my mouth I never said, then accusing me of being a liar such as yourself.

It's obvious from the reams of info I've tried to get you to look at, ALL extremely well researched, that he SHOULD NOT HAVE HAD ANY sort of pilot's license.

You're too busy foaming at the mouth however to bother yourself with that. Oh that's right, you don't believe the newspaper reports when it contradicts YOUR beliefs, you only like newspaper reports when it talks about those nasty "terrorists" who single handidly defeated the US military the morning of 9/11/2001.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:20:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#507. To: AGAviator (#504)

A .52G turn is not a "precision turn" by any stretch of the imagination, when a student pilot must pull off a full circle 2G banked turn within 200 feet and a few degrees of starting heading, just to get a private pilot license.

From Ohio to Arlington? That's a pretty tall order!

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   21:22:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#508. To: AGAviator (#499)

You are still engaging in dishonest dissembling and are now are trying to cover your piss poor logic and being called on your logical fallacies.

The point of course is that Hanjour/Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot, had NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time, or ANY place EVER flown a Jet Aircraft of ANY kind.

In fact every instructor who knew him who has commented or testified has stated that he was incompetent as a pilot and I defy you to find and cite ANY exception to that.

Go blow smoke up someone elses ass.

FLUSSSSSSSSSSSH!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   21:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#509. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#463)

So all of the senior air traffic controllers who were there at Dulles International Airport "weren't thinking critically", you are smarter and know more than them

The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head.

The critical questions are what was the bank angle of the turn, and what were the G's the turn generated? That's already been discussed, and both factors are well below what's considered "critical."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   21:23:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#510. To: buckeroo (#505)

So now it is just NBFD, 'eh? You liar

You're an obvious shillster there bud, repeating the same lies, over and over, hoping that if you sling enough crap at someone, it'll eventually stick.

You are unable to discuss this rationally, I feel like I'm trying to argue with a 10 year old.

Sure ok, go find those posts and provide a link. Find them, or come back here, beg my forgiveness, and apologize for lying about me.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:25:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#511. To: AGAviator (#509)

The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head.

So flying less than 60 feet off the deck at 400+ mph is standard airliner flight procedure, and any ole kid off the street could bring that baby down at 530 mph and level off at 20 feet, eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:27:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#512. To: AGAviator (#509)

The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head.

And with the transponders turned off...what? They just go set up chaise lounges on the lawn and watch the unfolding ballet?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   21:30:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#513. To: FormerLurker, Buckmonster Fullofit, buckeroo, wudidiz, All (#506)

You're too busy foaming at the mouth however to bother yourself with that. Oh that's right, you don't believe the newspaper reports when it contradicts YOUR beliefs, you only like newspaper reports when it talks about those nasty "terrorists" who single handidly defeated the US military the morning of 9/11/2001.

Even worse he knows he lost the debate a while back - say 200 posts, or better, ago. At this point he is just trying to wipe the fecal matter off of his face and throw up a cloud of smoke as some sort of stoopid attempt to either save face or try to make some point that he is incapable of making. After all the gubbermint told him that Hanjoor was an Ace among Aces - a vertiable "Top Gun" behind the stick of a Jumbo Jet (despite NEVER EVER having flown ANY type of Jet at ANY TIME and being characterized by his Flight Instructors as incompetent and an Air Hazard). Who are those stupid Flight Instructors to say otherwise Buckies Gawd has spoken?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   21:31:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#514. To: AGAviator (#504)

A .52G turn is not a "precision turn" by any stretch of the imagination

It's not the gravity involved that made it a precision turn, it was the speed, turn radius, and rate of descent.

So you know more than an aeronautical engineer who has flown heavy aircraft, eh?

From The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

According to FAA radar controllers, "Flight 77" then suddenly pops up over Washington DC and executes an incredibly precise diving turn at a rate of 360 degrees per minute while descending at 3,500 feet per minute, at the end of which "Hanjour" allegedly levels out at ground level. Oh, I almost forgot: He also had the presence of mind to turn off the transponder in the middle of this incredibly difficult maneuver, - - one of his instructors later commented the hapless fellow couldn't have spelt the word if his life depended on it. - -

The maneuver was in fact so precisely executed that the air traffic controllers at Dulles refused to believe the blip on their screen was a commercial airliner. Danielle O'Brian, one of the air traffic controllers at Dulles who reported seeing the aircraft at 9:25 said, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane."

And then, all of a sudden we have magic. Voila! Hanjour finds the Pentagon sitting squarely in his sights right before him.

But even that wasn't good enough for this fanatic Muslim kamikaze pilot. You see, he found that his "missile" was heading towards one of the most densely populated wings of the Pentagon - and one occupied by top military brass, including the Secretary of Defense, Rumsfeld. Presumably in order to save these men's lives, he then executes a sweeping 270-degree turn and approaches the building from the opposite direction and aligns himself with the only wing of the Pentagon that was virtually uninhabited due to extensive renovations that were underway - -, there were some 120 civilians construction workers in that wing who were killed; their work included blast-proofing the outside wall of that wing. - -

I shan't get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.)

Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000 pounds airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH.

The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing- loading (such as a commercial jets), i.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:33:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#515. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#508)

The point of course is that Hanjour/Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot, had NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time, or ANY place EVER flown a Jet Aircraft of ANY kind.

Wrong. The point is you said Hanjor did not ever have a license, and when clouted on that, you then went on to falsely call a Commercial Pilot Certificate a "Learning Permit" when in fact the closest thing to a "Learning Permit" is a Student Pilot Certificate.

The point of course is that Hanjour/Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot

That is not what the FAA said on April 15, 1999.

NEVER under ANY circumstances, at ANY time, or ANY place EVER flown a Jet Aircraft of ANY kind

Commercial Pilot Type Certification can be done on simulators. Hanjour had access to, and did log hours, on simulators.

Debunked again.

Go blow smoke up someone elses ass.

FLUSSSSSSSSSSSH

Violating your own self-propagandized rules again, phony windbag.

Twenty Five Rules to Suppress Truth

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach....

6. Hit and Run.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   21:34:16 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#516. To: Dakmar, AGAviator, a.k.a. Tailspin Charley (#512)

The ATC's quoted - which certainly is not all of them - were stuck in their mental models of passenger jets moving in such gentle arcs that nobody would even need to call up the airline staff and complain they spilled their drinks while walking to the head.

And with the transponders turned off...what? They just go set up chaise lounges on the lawn and watch the unfolding ballet?

Don't forget the cute little drinkies with the neat little paper parasols and a twist of lime.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   21:34:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#517. To: Original_Intent (#513)

Who are those stupid Flight Instructors to say otherwise Buckies Gawd has spoken?

He's following many of the standard disinfo tactics. I think something smells a bit fishy in buckie's house...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:35:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#518. To: AGAviator (#515)

Commercial Pilot Type Certification can be done on simulators. Hanjour had access to, and did log hours, on simulators.

He failed the simulator training, skipping class most of time, doing poorly while there.

Debunked.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:37:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#519. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#506)

Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license. I said I didn't THINK he did since he certainly wasn't qualified to have one, so stop putting words into my mouth I never said, then accusing me of being a liar such as yourself.

Liar. @post 527 you started your drool and groveling for another 400 posts....

To: AGAviator: It doesn't exist, bullshit artist. There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.
And then you continued the monotony for ANOTHER 400 posts, BS artist.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#520. To: FormerLurker, budkeroo, turtle (#514)

The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

Nila S is a fly by night commentator who does not have the working email address his blurb claims. I know because I emailed him and got a bounce back.

A much better analysis is done by former Air Force Pilot Steve Koeppel of Palm Springs, who explains the 270 degree turn and the reasons for the overshoot of the Pentagon by an inexperienced hijacker.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   21:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#521. To: FormerLurker (#506)

Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license.

Post #544: To AGAviator: A logbook and license that had no basis in reality. Again, find his records indicating he ever took lessons and ever held a private license. Find the names of his prior flight schools.
Liar!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:44:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#522. To: AGAviator (#515)

Commercial Pilot Type Certification can be done on simulators. Hanjour had access to, and did log hours, on simulators.

On a different and smaller class of aircraft, 737, where he was advised to stop wasting his money as he was so awful. And so that is your counter? LOL!

Debunked again.

(My comment): Go blow smoke up someone elses ass.

FLUSSSSSSSSSSSH

"Violating your own self-propagandized rules again, phony windbag."

Here's another one for your collection: Eat Me!

(I never said I NEVER use vulgarisms just rarely, and only when they serve a purpose other than to merely be vulgar - such as to emphasize the laughability of your post. So, please to stuff your alleged gotcha in the appropriate orofice.)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   21:45:46 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#523. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#518)

He failed the simulator training

What did he ***fail*** and where is your proof?

You don't "fail" any instructions until you get tested. You still get to log the hours.

Takeoffs? Didn't need to do them anyway.

Landings? Didn't need to do them anyway.

English? Didn't need it anyway.

Couldn't enter the hours spent on simulator into logbook? Wrong.

Debunked.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   21:47:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#524. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#519)

To: AGAviator: It doesn't exist, bullshit artist. There is no record of what school he took lessons from in terms of either a commericial or private pilot's license.

Well ok, you've proven me wrong buck. I suppose after asking for a copy of the license for the longest time, and not seeing AG able to come up with it, I simply assumed there WAS no license.

That was ONE post, posted in the wee hours of the morning, which I posted AFTER both you and he were launching salvos of vulgarities at anyone who disagreed with you.

So yeah, I apparently got a bit pissed off and responded tersely.

Now when are YOU going to apologize for acting like a gutter mouthed idiot the majority of that thread?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:49:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#525. To: Dakmar (#493)

Yeah, you just have to adjust the little wingy-dealies! It's a lot lot the time I had to grab the keys from my friend Bill and drive the '68 4-4-2 through downtown Kokomo; except that there were street signs and were didn't have to fight off hundreds of passengers with a utility knife. Things might have turned out differently, otherwise.

LOL! That's funny.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-26   21:50:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#526. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#522)

Here's another one for your collection: Eat Me!

Here's one for you, k00k, with your stinking hat on.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   21:50:41 ET  (4 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#527. To: FormerLurker (#506)

Find the post where I stated he didn't have a license.

Post #553: To AGAviator: So I'm supposed to believe YOU, the forum liar, rather than the news reports that reported the facts concerning Hanjour's background, eh?

Post the following information concerning Hanjour's commercial license;

1. The name of the FAA inspector who signed off on his commercial certificate 2. The name of his commericial flight school and instructor(s) 3. Find any information on his multi-engine license or certificate 4. Find any information on his single-engine license

You see genius, you can't walk into an FAA office and tell them you want a commericial license, have them say ok, here ya go. You HAVE to FIRST take lessons for a SINGLE-ENGINE PRIVATE license, solo, acquire flight hours, THEN take a test with an FAA examiner, similar to driver's road test, where every aspect of a pilot's abilities are scrutinized, THEN if successful a PRIVATE SINGLE ENGINE license is issued.

THEN, in order to fly MULTI-ENGINE planes, you need to take lessons for that and go through a similar process.

THEN, a pilot would need to fly a simulator and take lessons for IFR flight, ie. flying with instruments only, and be examined for that, and be issued a IFR certificate.

THEN, a pilot would need to log many hours of time IFR, and take lessons for a COMMERCIAL license, THEN be examined by the FAA for that.

So go ahead and provide that information concerning his flight training and FAA certifications.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:51:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#528. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#523)

He failed the simulator training

What did he ***fail*** and where is your proof?

You don't "fail" any instructions until you get tested. You still get to log the hours.

Takeoffs? Didn't need to do them anyway.

Landings? Didn't need to do them anyway.

English? Didn't need it anyway.

Couldn't enter the hours spent on simulator into logbook? Wrong.

Every Instructor he had who has spoken has said he was incompetent and could barely fly a single engine propeller driven plane - without exception.

What schlimiel.

So, are you going to endlessly treat us with more of your logic chopping and logical fallacies?

Can you roll over too?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   21:51:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#529. To: FormerLurker (#524)

Well ok, you've proven me wrong buck.

Because you threw the demolition thread off track, liar...

That was ONE post

Another lie! You threw the thread off-track for 400 posts... you GODDAMNED LIAR.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:52:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#530. To: Original_Intent (#528)

So, are you going to endlessly treat us with more of your logic chopping and logical fallacies?

Of course.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-26   21:52:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#531. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, Original_Intent (#523)

What did he ***fail*** and where is your proof?

Well here you are... Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Turning to the footnote for the claim that Hanjour "completed" training at Jet Tech, one can read (emphasis added): "For his training at Pan Am International Flight Academy and completion by March 2001, see FBI report ‘Hijackers Timeline,’ Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 8, 2001, entries...)". But turning to that source, the FBI timeline does not state that Hanjour "completed" the training, only that he "ended" the course on March 16.47 The truth is that, as the Washington Post reported, "Hanjour flunked out after a month" at Jet Tech.12 Offering corroboration for that account, the Associated Press similarly reported that "Hanjour did not finish his studies at JetTech and left the school."48


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:54:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#532. To: buckeroo (#529)

You threw the thread off-track for 400 posts...you GODDAMNED LIAR.

There ya go with your potty mouth again.

Trying to get this thread locked too?

Your pal is the one who brought up the topic of the hijackers abilities, and also, it IS pertanent to the overall events of the day.

Grow up.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:56:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#533. To: buckeroo (#527)

So go ahead and provide that information concerning his flight training and FAA certifications.

So what, I asked for the documentation.

It's apparent you have NOTHING to contribute to this thread, you're simply launching personal attacks, hoping you can muddy things up a bit, start a flame fest, and get this thread locked it seems.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   21:58:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#534. To: Original_Intent (#513)

Even worse he knows he lost the debate a while back - say 200 posts, or better, ago.

Buckeroo and aggravator are knowing individuals. It's just that so much of what they know is incorrect.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-26   21:58:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#535. To: FormerLurker (#532)

There ya go with your potty mouth again.

You are a GODDAMNED LIAR excusing yourself... for your earlier LIES ...."well it was the wee hours of the night and a single post"

I despise you as a poster... you GODDAMNED LIAR.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   21:59:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#536. To: FormerLurker (#533)

So what, I asked for the documentation.

You GODDAMNED LIAR... you said Hanjour had no certification or licenses.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   22:00:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#537. To: FormerLurker (#524)

That was ONE post, posted in the wee hours of the morning

Post #569: To AVAviator: Find his commericial AND private training records, shillster.

REPORTS simply repeat what his instructors say, in that he showed them a licencse. Ok, well if he had this license, where'd he get the training?

Also, which FAA examiner signed off on his license? Where was the exam taken?

Your own SHIT went on and on for another 350 posts.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   22:05:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#538. To: buckeroo (#536)

c'mon, c'mon. c'mon baby now

c'mon and work it all out

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   22:06:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#539. To: buckeroo (#529)

Because you threw the demolition thread off track, liar...

BTW crackhead, I STARTED TWO SEPARATE THREADS, one of which was the thread concerning Hanjour's alleged abilities, and invited your pal as well.

You did NOT post on that thread to discuss the issues there, instead, you badgered me on the earlier thread, hoping to make your point there. So you are at least partly to blame for that conversation occuring on that thread, along with your pal, who brought up the hijackers' flight skills more than a few times.

I also invited the both of you to an article I posted concerning a former employee of CDI who supported the idea that controlled demolition was used, yet you avoided that thread as well.

Grow a pair and stop being such a little pansy.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:06:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#540. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, buckeroo, christine, James Deffenbach, Dakmar, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, all (#533)

It's apparent you have NOTHING to contribute to this thread, you're simply launching personal attacks, hoping you can muddy things up a bit, start a flame fest, and get this thread locked it seems.

That would seem to be a likely inference. Having long long ago lost the debate in convincing fashion all they have left are the disinfowarrior's bag of tricks, diversions, half truths, ridicule, and attempts to incite a flame war.

At this point despite their childish and petulant protestations Bloviator and Buckmonster Fullofit have nothing left with which to counter the logical conclusion that Hani Hanjoor was an incompetent pilot incapable of performing the observed and recorded maneuvers of Flight 77. In fact given his training and educational history it is questionable as to whether he could have even found the autopilot in a 757 let alone engage it.

No, they have nothing, know they have nothing, and are now trying to obscure the fact that they have had their heads handed to them repeatedly - a fact apparent to anyone reading back over this thread.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:07:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#541. To: buckeroo (#535)

Oooh, are you going to shit all over this thread too?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:08:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#542. To: farmfriend (#530)

So, are you going to endlessly treat us with more of your logic chopping and logical fallacies?

Of course.

But can he roll over, fetch, and is he "paper trained"?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:10:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#543. To: Original_Intent (#540)

No, they have nothing, know they have nothing, and are now trying to obscure the fact that they have had their heads handed to them repeatedly - a fact apparent to anyone reading back over this thread.

It's like clockwork, whenever they've reached a point they've been totally defeated, one or both of them will launch the personal attack cannons.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:10:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#544. To: Original_Intent (#542)

But can he roll over, fetch, and is he "paper trained"?

I'm guessing my cat is better trained.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-26   22:11:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#545. To: Dakmar, buckeroo, Buckmonster Fullofit, all (#538)

c'mon, c'mon. c'mon baby now

c'mon and work it all out

Buckie is at his wit's end. Thankfully it was a short trip.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:11:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#546. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#528) (Edited)

He failed the simulator training

What did he ***fail*** and where is your proof?

You don't "fail" any instructions until you get tested. You still get to log the hours.

Takeoffs? Didn't need to do them anyway.

Landings? Didn't need to do them anyway.

English? Didn't need it anyway.

Couldn't enter the hours spent on simulator into logbook? Wrong.

Every Instructor he had who has spoken has said he was incompetent and could barely fly a single engine propeller driven plane - without exception.

What schlimiel.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic.

The subject is whether he "failed" the simulator training. And you say something about instructor scuttlebutt but do not reference any comments on simulator logins. Then commence with the puerile name calling.

So, are you going to endlessly treat us with more of your logic chopping and logical fallacies?

Can you roll over too?

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how "sensitive they are to criticism".

Taking us on a tour of how well you live by your own disinformation rules you accuse others of, phony windbag?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   22:12:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#547. To: FormerLurker (#541)

Oooh, are you going to shit all over this thread too?

YOU GODDAMNED LIAR >>> UNWILLING TO ADMIT YOUR OWN WEAKNESS TO UNDERSTAND FACTS..

But it is all everyone's elses responsibility to PROVE your lies... you are akin to the most irresponsible poster, worker, shill or any MAGGOT in the Universe.

I pray your ass is kicked out of this forum.... YOU GODDAMNED LIAR.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   22:14:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#548. To: AGAviator (#523)

Takeoffs? Didn't need to do them anyway.

So you don't need to know how to takeoff to get a private or commercial FAA license, eh? LOL, yeah right.

Landings? Didn't need to do them anyway.

He effectively went BEYOND landing the plane, he landed it without flaps or wheels down, bringing the plane within 20 feet off the ground, nose level, traveling at 530 mph.

English? Didn't need it anyway.

He needed it to learn and understand the instruction he was paying to receive, and it was also a FAA requirement for any sort of license, private OR commericial.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:16:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#549. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#543)

One or both of them will launch the personal attack cannons.

#541. To: buckeroo (#535)
Oooh, are you going to shit all over this thread too?
FormerLurker posted on 2010-07-26 22:08:08 ET

So yours don't stink, phony hypocrite....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   22:16:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#550. To: Original_Intent (#540)

That would seem to be a likely inference. Having long long ago lost the debate in convincing fashion all they have left are the disinfowarrior's bag of tricks, diversions, half truths, ridicule, and attempts to incite a flame war.

At this point despite their childish and petulant protestations Bloviator and Buckmonster Fullofit have nothing left with which to counter the logical conclusion that Hani Hanjoor was an incompetent pilot incapable of performing the observed and recorded maneuvers of Flight 77. In fact given his training and educational history it is questionable as to whether he could have even found the autopilot in a 757 let alone engage it.

No, they have nothing, know they have nothing, and are now trying to obscure the fact that they have had their heads handed to them repeatedly - a fact apparent to anyone reading back over this thread.

You are another POS.. and it isn't apparent... and I don't use terms like "I think" or "probably" perhaps" "another way to look"

YOU ARE AN ASSLICKER OF FORMERLURKERS... no question about it.

Now, there is no probably, maybe, perhaps, I think, it could be, ... IT IS A FACT... ASSLICKER.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   22:17:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#551. To: AGAviator (#546)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:18:46 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#552. To: buckeroo, ALL (#547)

STFU bozo, and grow the hell up.

I admitted that I had said it once, and I have said it over and over again, I DID NOT BELIEVE AN INCOMPETENT PERSON SUCH AS HANJOUR WOULD HAVE LEGITIMATELY HAD ANY SORT OF FAA LICENSE.

You STILL haven't proven the "legitimate" part, as Hanjour most obviously was NOT qualified to have been issued either of those licenses.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:19:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#553. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#548)

He needed it to learn and understand the instruction he was paying to receive, and it was also a FAA requirement for any sort of license, private OR commericial.

He did learn it in 1999. He then went to Saudi, tried to get a job with the airlines, was not hired, then began a gradual drift towards jihadi groups without letting his family know.

It is possible to let acquired skills lapse when you give up a career goal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   22:21:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#554. To: buckeroo (#550)

Wow buck, you really DO remind me of yukon, focusing on man ass and stuff.

It's obvious you're trying to kill the thread, get it locked, and discussion shut down.

Funny how you show up right when a lot of facts were being presented, just to stomp your feet like a little girl and demand attention.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:21:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#555. To: christine, buckeroo, all (#550)

Clean up on Aisle 3.

I do believe FL is correct and that buckie is trying to get the thread shut down since he and his cohort have been so resoundingly pwned.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:25:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#556. To: buckeroo (#550)

ASSLICKER

What is it with you toadies and the whole coprophilia thing anyway? For a monolithic inbred parasitic subculture you sure seem to neglect thinking through major PR campaigns. You trying to shock and awe our hearts and minds?

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-26   22:25:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#557. To: AGAviator (#553)

He did learn it in 1999. He then went to Saudi, tried to get a job with the airlines, was not hired, then began a gradual drift towards jihadi groups without letting his family know.

It is possible to let acquired skills lapse when you give up a career goal.

His skills were poor 1996, 1997, 1998, AND 1999.

Did you even read the article I posted?

Hanjour made plans to return to the U.S. and was issued a third visa in Jeddah in November 1997. His visa application contained red flags that should have resulted in his visa being denied. He failed to write in the name and address of the school he would be attending and provided no proof, as required by law, that he could furnish financial support for himself.23 With that application accepted, he reentered the U.S. and took pilot training from CRM again in December.24

It was at this time that, according the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour began his training "in earnest". But in reality, while at CRM, Hanjour never finished coursework required to get his certificate to be able to fly a single-engine aircraft.25 The New York Times reported that "he was a lackadaisical student who often cut class and never displayed the passion so common among budding commercial airline pilots."26 ABC News reported that when he returned to CRM that December, "He was trying for his private pilot’s license", but according to one of his instructor’s, he "was a very poor student who skipped homework and missed flights."27 The school’s attorney said that when Hanjour reapplied again later in 2000, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn’t think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997."28 The school’s owner described him as a "weak student" who "was wasting our resources."29 He said, "One of the first accomplishments of someone in flight school is to fly a plane without an instructor. It is a confidence-building procedure. He managed to do that. That is like being able to pull a car out and drive down the street. It is not driving on the freeway." Although it normally took three months for students to earn their private pilot’s certificate, Hanjour "did not accomplish that at my school." He added, "We didn’t want him back at our school because he was not serious about becoming a good pilot."30 The Chicago Tribune reported that at CRM, "A flight instructor said Hanjour left an impression by being unimpressive. ‘He was making weak progress,’ said Duncan Hastie, president of CRM."31

Hanjour switched schools, and from the end of December 1997 until April 1999, took flight lessons from Arizona Aviation in Mesa, Arizona.24 There, too, the 9/11 Commission’s own evidence contradicts the characterization that Hanjour was training "in earnest". An FBI document cited by the Commission stated that "Hanjour often participated in flying lessons for a one to two weeks [sic] and then would disappear for weeks or months at a time." The school "often had to call Hanjour in an effort to get Hanjour to pay his bill."32

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:27:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#558. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#554)

Funny how you show up right when a lot of facts were being presented, just to stomp your feet like a little girl and demand attention.

Like you and O_I LYING out your own ASSES...

post#606: To buckeroo: So, produce a legitimate reference citing chapter and verse of where Hanjour allegedly got his license and under what circumstances or stand refuted.

Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-21 15:59:51 ET [Locked]

Both of you are liars and deceitful posters. Both OF YOU NEED to get your ASSES kicked.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   22:28:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#559. To: farmfriend (#544)

But can he roll over, fetch, and is he "paper trained"?

I'm guessing my cat is better trained.

My old Tom is quite fastidious - he will actually come in from outside to use the Litter Box. Crazy Cat. But he's my Pal.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:28:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#560. To: Original_Intent (#551)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   22:29:45 ET  (4 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#561. To: AGAviator (#560)

More clear evidence that you know you have been shellacked.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:32:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#562. To: buckeroo (#558)

Both OF YOU NEED to get your ASSES kicked.

Go take your Prozac old man.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:33:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#563. To: AGAviator (#549)

So yours don't stink, phony hypocrite....

You don't seem to have a problem when buck tosses out every vulgarity he knows, but oh shucks, FL said the word shit.

Speaking of hypocrites, look in the mirror.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:37:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#564. To: buckeroo (#558)

Poor buckie. A day late and a brick shy as usual. I've conceded the point twice on the thread now.

I concede that Hanjoor was able to buy a license.

That does not change the testimony of any of his instructors who have spoken and each and every one without exception has said he was incompetent as a pilot.

So, you can throw all the hiss fits you want, but it does not change that FACT.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:37:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#565. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#561) (Edited)

More clear evidence that you know you have been shellacked

Show me your proof of the Mother of All Conspiracies Bean Counters being so intractible they had to be executed en masse to keep them from going off reservation, Half_Truther_Change_the_Subject?

And you got any candiates running for Congress this November?

And how're 'dem 60+ Obama BC lawsuits going?

BWAHAHAHAHHAAH!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   22:39:08 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#566. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, GreyLmist (#565)

Show me your proof of the Mother of All Conspiracies Bean Counters being so intractible they had to be executed en masse to keep them from going off reservation, Half_Truther_Change_the_Subject?

So AG, I see you're back to calling the Office of Naval Intelligence officers who were killed "bean counters", eh?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:43:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#567. To: AGAviator (#565)

ImageHost.org

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:44:28 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#568. To: Original_Intent (#559)

Red comes when called or whistled for. Minds when he is told no etc. Good cat. I miss Bandit though. He was my baby.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-26   22:46:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#569. To: Original_Intent (#567)

ooo I don't have the troll.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-26   22:47:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#570. To: buckeroo (#547)

I pray your ass is kicked out of this forum....

Uh huh. Seems more like you're the one skating on thin ice here slick.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-26   22:48:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#571. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#564) (Edited)

That does not change the testimony of any of his instructors who have spoken and each and every one without exception has said he was incompetent as a pilot.

***Competency as a pilot*** was never the issue windbag.

The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.

Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed.

As is usual for a Half Truther, you omit the explicit statements of the flight instructors saying he was competent to do these tasks.

Just shows what a deceitful prevert you are.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   22:48:48 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#572. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#566)

I see you're back to calling the Office of Naval Intelligence officers who were killed "bean counters", eh

No, that's what your cohort is alleging.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   22:49:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#573. To: farmfriend (#568)

Red comes when called or whistled for. Minds when he is told no etc. Good cat. I miss Bandit though. He was my baby.

I miss my little Tia-dorable. She was a special needs kitty but she was a little doll - I'm still broken hearted over that - she died just a week ago from dehydration. I didn't catch it in time and was not able to get her to take enough liquids with syringe feeding. Thankfully I've still got ol' Tom.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:50:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#574. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#466) (Edited)

Nobody ever said that Hanjour didn't have or possess an active pilot's license. What seems amiss id that FormerLurker said Hanjour didn't possess one.

Now, what this all means is FormerLurker doesn't know much about flight training and Hanjour OBVIOUSLY went through flight training to receive certification EVEN IF IT WAS INSTRUMENTATION.

SO, I don't understand why you are posting all kinds of links and threads towards his certification when ONLY FL and his pal, O_I said he wasn't qualified to begin with.

The point is moot. Hanjour went through flight training. FL and O_I both lied or are ignorant becasue of their conspiracy threads.

What I recall is that FL doubted his licensing/certification because of only seeing verbal claims made about it through the years but no paper-trail documentation for evidence. I think FL requested that you post the evidence if you could but the validity of the documentation is still in doubt due to irregularities about requirements to qualify, etc. Hanjour/Hanjoor is alleged to have gone through flight training or someone pretending to be him may have done so. It's not a lie if that's not accepted as an indisputable fact, what with so many forged documents in the news these days and historically.

I posted the thread and links for his alleged Airman Records as a convenience for myself and others who might be interested in studying them closer without having to search through lengthy threads plural for the scattered info or go to the site that can run very slowly and shut down, as it did for me. At least 2 documents there show that he was not approved by a Brunhilde Bradley. The 2 documents AGA posted which I commented about here show that, once upon a time, it looks like he or some character by that name was given a Piper class Com. Cert. that expired quite some time before 9/11? Who knows what instrumentation, etc., might have changed in the meantime that would then be totally unfamiliar to a flyer re: said expired training?

The Official Story is a Conspiracy Theory despite all who'd like to insist otherwise. Because that OCT/Official Conspiracy Theory narrative is guv-issued, your side has some guv-issued prop pieces to go along with it and some high and mighty sounding talking points. But, like lots of guv-issued things, the pieces are often mismatched -- like some plane parts "found" at the WTC -- and some of the data looks deliberately planted or wrong and so on. The fact is that the Official belief system about 9/11 is lethal. Thousands and thousands of people have been dying and suffering all the years since; and so it must be questioned and investigated by us skeptics, you see, regardless of scorn or how comfortable your side is with what you've been told and believe you've seen or heard as convincing to you.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-26   22:50:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#575. To: farmfriend (#569)

ooo I don't have the troll.

I bet you do now. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:51:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#576. To: AGAviator (#571)

Oh, blather.

Attaboy, blow that smoke, try to get things nice and confused so no one will notice that your gluteus maximus was kicked all over the thread.

If you keep it up you might even convince yourself. Photobucket

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   22:57:03 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#577. To: Original_Intent (#564)

I've conceded the point twice on the thread now.

YOU LYING SACK OF SCUM... no you haven't.

You use revised terms all the time... unwilling to confront the datum (HEHE... your term) that you ignore...

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   22:59:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#578. To: Original_Intent (#573)

she died just a week ago from dehydration.

My condolences on your loss.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-26   23:04:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#579. To: farmfriend (#578)

Thanks. It's an adjustment. I was so used to having her around and being a constant pest wanting to be the center of attention. I miss her most in the mornings. She would set on my shoulder while I typed. Sigh.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   23:09:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#580. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#550) (Edited)

You are another POS.. and it isn't apparent

Nope, it ISN'T apparent, not the least bit apparent.

Weren't you asked by our kind and considerate moderator to cease with the name calling?

It seems that your valiant efforts to debunk have once again transpired into an epic failure, so you throw a little tirade in an attempt to get it locked down so you can start another thread and whine that this thread was "stellar"...lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-26   23:13:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#581. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#576) (Edited)

try to get things nice and confused

You say:

Any of his instructors who have spoken...has said he was incompetent as a pilot.
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-26 22:37:37 ET

I say:

***Competency as a pilot*** was never the issue windbag.
The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.
AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 22:48:48 ET

You say

Try to get things nice and confused
Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-26 22:57:03 ET

So a distinction between "pilot" and "suicide hijacker" *****confuses**** you!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!!!!

You really are stupid enough that you think you can interchange qualifications of "pilot" and "suicide hijacker" on a moment's notice.

Did it ever occur to you that a pilot wants to live, and needs greater skills to survive, and a suicide hijacker does not care about dying or risks, windbloated buffoon?

And you think you've "won" with inanities like that?

WHOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   23:20:46 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#582. To: AGAviator (#572)

FormerLurker: I see you're back to calling the Office of Naval Intelligence officers who were killed "bean counters", eh

AGAviator: No, that's what your cohort is alleging.

So who are those you've alledged to be "Bean Counters", AGA?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-26   23:25:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#583. To: Original_Intent (#402)

Think I'll roll me a fattie and watch this one from the sidelines, LOL.

Somehow it seems appropriate that you would be a dope smoker.

maybe that fattie has nothing to do with dope, maybe AGovshill is just being vulgar.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-26   23:35:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#584. To: AGAviator (#581) (Edited)

So, is the word "incompetent" one of them thar big wurdz that you don't understand? Photobucket

Of course you couldn't resist the usual load of logical fallacies:

You really are stupid enough (Argumentum Ad Hominem) that you think you can interchange qualifications of "pilot" and "suicide hijacker"(Loaded Words) on a moment's notice.

Did it ever occur to you that a pilot wants to live, and needs greater skills to survive, and a suicide hijacker (Loaded Words) does not care about dying or risks, windbloated buffoon(Argumentum Ad Hominem)?

When you have to resort to histrionics and fallacious arguments it simply reinforces one thing - you have soooooooooooo lost the debate.

What color of "Vans" do you wear?

Got Skateboard?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   23:39:44 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#585. To: GreyLmist, buckeroo (#582) (Edited)

So who are those you've alledged to be "Bean Counters", AGA?

Those are Original_Indent auditors, supposed to have been killed by the Pentagon Pea Porridge "Not too hot, not too cold" event on 911.

Which wasn't violent enough to get rid of the Pentagon principals like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, but was managed well enough to kill all the heroic accountants, about to uncover a trillion dollar fraud, they couldn't be persuaded to be quiet about.

Unlike all the tens of thousands of other 911 conspirators not one of whom has ever come forward.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   23:41:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#586. To: IRTorqued (#583)

maybe that fattie has nothing to do with dope, maybe AGovshill is just being vulgar

Or more likely you are.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   23:42:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#587. To: IRTorqued (#583)

Think I'll roll me a fattie and watch this one from the sidelines, LOL.

Somehow it seems appropriate that you would be a dope smoker.

maybe that fattie has nothing to do with dope, maybe AGovshill is just being vulgar.

ROFL!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-26   23:46:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#588. To: Original_Intent (#584) (Edited)

The word "incompetent" one them thar big wurdz that you don't understand?

I see and understand it every time I come across something with your screen name on it.

You really are stupid enough (Argumentum Ad Hominem) that you think you can interchange qualifications of "pilot" and "suicide hijacker"(Loaded Words) on a moment's notice.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues with denial they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

Are you or are you not ***confused*** that a hijacker intent on committing suicide does not need the same qualifications and skills, as a pilot who wants to safely survive all foreseeable hazards?

No ***playing dumb*** permitted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-26   23:50:05 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#589. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#587)

ROFL!

Are you BAC?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-26   23:59:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#590. To: AGAviator (#588)

I must admit you are consistent - consistently tiresome.

Get back to me when you have a sound argument.

Later Duuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   0:00:30 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#591. To: Original_Intent (#590)

To AGAviator: Get back to me when you have a sound argument.

The only "sound" you make or have have made, YOU HUGE WINDBAG is a BIG, SMELLY FART.

AG won't go there... he has shown demeanor time after time.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   0:06:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#592. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#591)

AG won't go there...

No, AG is the wind between your butt cheeks Buck.......lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-27   0:08:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#593. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo (#590) (Edited)

I must admit you are consistent - consistently tiresome.

Get back to me when you have a sound argument

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the "play dumb" rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon). In order to completely avoid discussing issues may require you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   0:10:36 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#594. To: christine (#592) (Edited)

deleted

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   0:12:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#595. To: AGAviator (#594)

9/11


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   0:44:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#596. To: All (#595)

Was


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   0:45:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#597. To: All (#596)

An


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   0:45:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#598. To: All (#597)

Inside


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   0:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#599. To: All (#598)

Job


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   0:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#600. To: All (#599)

600


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   0:45:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#601. To: wudidiz (#600)

Thhhhhhhhhhhppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   1:06:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#602. To: Original_Intent (#601) (Edited)

Gotta get up earlier in the morning than that if you want to beat ole wudidiz to 600...


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   1:09:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#603. To: wudidiz (#602)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   1:12:49 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#604. To: GreyLmist, Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#574)

But, like lots of guv-issued things, the pieces are often mismatched -- like some plane parts "found" at the WTC -- and some of the data looks deliberately planted or wrong and so on. The fact is that the Official belief system about 9/11 is lethal. Thousands and thousands of people have been dying and suffering all the years since; and so it must be questioned and investigated by us skeptics, you see, regardless of scorn or how comfortable your side is with what you've been told and believe you've seen or heard as convincing to you.

Great post. And many of us, not just O_I and FormerLurker, doubted the legitimacy of Hanjour/Hanjoor's "license." All the instructors who have made public statements said he COULD NOT FLY. So that must mean that someone, somewhere sold him a ticket.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   7:22:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#605. To: abraxas (#580)

It seems that your valiant efforts to debunk have once again transpired into an epic failure, so you throw a little tirade in an attempt to get it locked down so you can start another thread and whine that this thread was "stellar"...lol

Don't you be laughing, it will bring a tear to his eye.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   7:23:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#606. To: abraxas (#580)

Isn't it funny how, when buck and aggravator get tied to the tree of woe that they start in with the bs and scatological stuff to try to get the thread locked? But they might as well get used to being tied to that tree of woe when they keep posting bs from government tales. That stuff they post should start "Once upon a time."

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   7:25:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#607. To: abraxas (#592)

No, AG is the wind between your butt cheeks Buck.......lol

And vice versa I am sure. LOL indeed.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   7:28:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#608. To: Original_Intent (#443) (Edited)

#443. To: GreyLmist (#438)

One of the stray thoughts that occurs to me is that this video release, a very short clip, is just the kind of thing that could be created in a super computer by "Industrial Light and Magic" or their government equivalent. I'm not saying it was mind you - just a stray speculation.

That YouTube video was just to show what a big passenger plane would look like if the Official Story about it wasn't a drive- in movie of "smokey and the bandits".

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-27   9:57:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#609. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#585)

Unlike all the tens of thousands of other 911 conspirators not one of whom has ever come forward.

There most certainly wouldn't have been thousands, never mind "tens of thousands".

A small group of 12 or so would have been at the planning level, and perhaps 50 others in various levels of government, and perhaps another 50 as far as "contract" players.

Those in government would have to be at the highest levels in order to order top secret compartmentalized operations, where the people involved in those aspects more than likely had no idea what their work would be applied to.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   11:00:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#610. To: AGAviator, ALL (#520)

A much better analysis is done by former Air Force Pilot Steve Koeppel of Palm Springs, who explains the 270 degree turn and the reasons for the overshoot of the Pentagon by an inexperienced hijacker.

Virtually ANYONE could have decreased power on the jet and dove DOWN into the Pentagon roof, being that it has an area of 22 football fields. If it were actually an "inexperienced hijacker" flying the plane, that is what he would have done, not the precision manuevers which resulted in lining up a 71 foot tall target while traveling at over 400 mph at treetop level, then descending to 20 feet off the ground the last split second, keeping the nose level, and impacting the 71 foot tall target.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   11:45:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#611. To: Original_Intent (#450)

those videos can not show baalzabush and company stated events if they did AGovshill and bucky would be harping about said video with much links and cutting and pasting. instead they avoid the topic of those videos like the plague.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-27   12:07:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#612. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#610)

If it were actually an "inexperienced hijacker" flying the plane, that is what he would have done, not the precision manuevers which resulted in lining up a 71 foot tall target while traveling at over 400 mph at treetop level, then descending to 20 feet off the ground the last split second, keeping the nose level, and impacting the 71 foot tall target.

There were no precision maneuvers.

A 1/2 G turn, wings wobbling on final approach, and missing the original target by 270 to 330 degrees do not qualify as "precision" by any definition.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   12:14:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#613. To: buckeroo (#460)

so where is the video showing hanjour clearly on that plane and all the video that should have caught that plane hitting the pentagon?


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-27   12:15:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#614. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#609)

There most certainly wouldn't have been thousands, never mind "tens of thousands".

A small group of 12 or so would have been at the planning level, and perhaps 50 others in various levels of government, and perhaps another 50 as far as "contract" players.

Those in government would have to be at the highest levels in order to order top secret compartmentalized operations, where the people involved in those aspects more than likely had no idea what their work would be applied to.

Well, well .... well. Now we have some "FACTS" and "evidence" to go on. Obviously you are a witness to the events ... can you name some names for us and while you are at it... times, dates and any documented instructions?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   12:18:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#615. To: IRTorqued (#613)

so where is the video showing hanjour clearly on that plane

It is in paradise under the 78 virgin bodies that Hanjour is laying on top of.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   12:19:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#616. To: GreyLmist (#608)

That YouTube video was just to show what a big passenger plane would look like if the Official Story about it wasn't a drive- in movie of "smokey and the bandits".

Got it. LOL!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   12:22:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#617. To: IRTorqued (#611)

those videos can not show baalzabush and company stated events if they did AGovshill and bucky would be harping about said video with much links and cutting and pasting. instead they avoid the topic of those videos like the plague.

You are durn tootin' right on that. It is like the subject of those 32 Pentagon videos from surrounding cameras have cooties or something. The shills want nothing to do with the topic, and yes if they did confirm the "Official Fairy Tale™" they would have been trumpeted, headlined, cut and pasted ad nauseam, and the shills would have an orgasm every time they posted one.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   12:30:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#618. To: buckeroo, IRTorqued, FormerLurker, abraxas, all (#615)

so where is the video showing hanjour clearly on that plane

It is in paradise under the 78 virgin bodies that Hanjour is laying on top of.

In other words you want to avoid the subject of the 32 videos from cameras surrounding the Pentagram that the FBI collected ALL on the afternoon of 9111 (Gee it's almost like they had it planned out and knew exactly where to go.) and which have been kept buried under layers of "do not dare watch this" prohibitions NOW 9 YEARS AFTER THE EVENT.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   12:34:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#619. To: Original_Intent (#617)

they would have been trumpeted, headlined, cut and pasted

And "massaged and twittered" as the idiot judge said about Obama's eligibility to be president (not that he had any proof of it, he just thought it sounded good).

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   12:35:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#620. To: Original_Intent (#618)

In other words you want to avoid the subject of the 32 videos from cameras surrounding the Pentagram that the FBI collected ALL on the afternoon of 911

I guess I can photoshop some "airplane" clips with Hanjour sitting next to Otto. Will that work for you?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   12:39:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#621. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, RickyJ, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, Rotara, abraxas, Original_Intent (#565)

Show me your proof of the Mother of All Conspiracies Bean Counters being so intractible they had to be executed en masse to keep them from going off reservation, Half_Truther_Change_the_Subject?

show the various videos that would have caught that 757 hitting the pentagon and I'm not talking about those five or so blurry frames your liar movement likes to prance around with. while you're at it maybe you can get your handlers to dig you up some footage of hanjour boarding FLT77.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-27   12:43:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#622. To: buckeroo (#615)

so where is the video showing hanjour clearly on that plane

It is in paradise under the 78 virgin bodies that Hanjour is laying on top of.

Ta-ha!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   12:44:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#623. To: AGAviator (#612)

There were no precision maneuvers.

A 1/2 G turn, wings wobbling on final approach, and missing the original target by 270 to 330 degrees do not qualify as "precision" by any definition.

You need to be a serious wacko to make that claim.

Besides the fact air traffic controllers assumed it was a military plane by the way it manuevered, the plane flew at tree top level for a mile at over 400 mph, and descended to 20 feet and leveled off just prior to hitting the Pentagon wall, a 71 foot tall target.

All that to avoid Rumsfeld's office, which the plane was already lined up with, and could have easily slowed down and dove into.

The only thing wobbling is your mind.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   12:46:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#624. To: IRTorqued, buckeroo (#621)

five or so blurry frames

Gee willikers.

When you get good photo evidence, you say it's faked and made up in a state of the art studio "they" run everything out of.

When you don't get good photo evidence, you say there's no proof, which then gives you license to flog your k00ktheories - which also don't have any photo evidence to support them.

So if "they" are so good at special effects, why didn't "they" provide you your good photo evidence of the crash so you can then say it's fake?

BWAHAHAAHHA!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   12:51:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#625. To: buckeroo (#615)

It is in paradise under the 78 virgin bodies that Hanjour is laying on top of.

typical noting based on facts from the ole buckyroo.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-27   12:51:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#626. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#623) (Edited)

Besides the fact air traffic controllers assumed it was a military plane by the way it manuevered

They did not say that, you are bull$hitting once again.

The explicit statement of the controllers, including ATC Danielle O'Brien, on a video I have repeatedly posted, they say "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

Not that it was not a 757.

But they did not expect 757's to be flown in the manner they saw the 757 shown.

The full in context quote, not your half-a$$ed, Half Truth cherry pick, is on 0:44 to 1:11 of the following video,

Debunked.

Again.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   12:53:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#627. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, RickyJ, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, Rotara, abraxas, Original_Intent (#624)

there were how many other videos confiscated that day that remain under lock and key, why is that AGovshill? the fact is those videos do not support the liar movement. and of hanjour boarding FLT77 still a big goose egg for you?


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-27   12:54:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#628. To: IRTorqued, buckeroo (#627)

other videos confiscated that day that remain under lock and key

Where's your videos, Half Tw00fer?

Where's any of your independently verifiable evidence, not just internet rants?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   13:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#629. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#612)

If it were actually an "inexperienced hijacker" flying the plane, that is what he would have done, not the precision manuevers which resulted in lining up a 71 foot tall target while traveling at over 400 mph at treetop level, then descending to 20 feet off the ground the last split second, keeping the nose level, and impacting the 71 foot tall target.

There were no precision maneuvers.

A 1/2 G turn, wings wobbling on final approach, and missing the original target by 270 to 330 degrees do not qualify as "precision" by any definition.

As usual you are serially dishonest, misrepresenting and mischaraterizing the observed events.

From Al-Qaeda's Top Gun

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:06:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#630. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#623)

There were no precision maneuvers.

A 1/2 G turn, wings wobbling on final approach, and missing the original target by 270 to 330 degrees do not qualify as "precision" by any definition.

You need to be a serious wacko to make that claim.

Besides the fact air traffic controllers assumed it was a military plane by the way it manuevered, the plane flew at tree top level for a mile at over 400 mph, and descended to 20 feet and leveled off just prior to hitting the Pentagon wall, a 71 foot tall target.

All that to avoid Rumsfeld's office, which the plane was already lined up with, and could have easily slowed down and dove into.

The only thing wobbling is your mind.

He must be smoking another one of those "fatties" while he tunes the Trucks on his Skateboard.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:08:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#631. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, IRTorqued, Original_Intent, GreyLmist, abraxas, Rotara, RickyJ (#615)

It is in paradise under the 78 virgin bodies that Hanjour is laying on top of.

Are you aware of the fact that no arabs were on Flight 77?

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77

So perhaps that "paradise" you're talking about is the same one some of his other pals are living in...

Revealed: the men with stolen identities [Telegraph]

Hijack 'suspects' alive and well [BBC]


Tracking the 19 Hijackers
What are they up to now?
At least 9 of them survived 9/11

A former high-level intelligence official told me, "Whatever trail was left
was left deliberately--for the F.B.I. to chase."
New Yorker 10/1/01 by Seymour Hersh
American Airlines #11 Boeing 767
7:45 a.m. Departed Boston for Los Angeles
8:45 a.m. Crashed into North Tower of World Trade Center
Satam M. A. Al Suqami
Satam Suqami
Used Firearm
Waleed M. Alshehri
Waleed Alshehri
Still Alive3
Wail M. Alshehri
Wail Alshehri
Still alive10
BL Video12
Mohamed Atta
Mohamed Atta
Still Alive9
U.S. Military1
Abdulaziz Alomari
Abdulaziz Alomari
Still Alive4
U.S. Military1

American Airlines #77 - Boeing 757
8:10 a.m. Departed Dulles for Los Angeles
9:39 a.m. Crashed into Pentagon
Khalid Almihdhar
Khalid Almihdhar
Still Alive2
Lived w/FBI20
Majed Moqed
Majed Moqed
Nawaf Alhazmi
Nawaf Alhazmi
Lived w/FBI20
Salem Alhazmi
Salem Alhazmi
Still Alive6
BL Video12
Hani Hanjour
Hani Hanjour
Lacked alleged
flying ability19

United Airlines #175 - Boeing 767
7:58 a.m. Departed Boston for Los Angeles
9:05 a.m. Crashed into South Tower of World Trade Center
Marwan Al-Shehhi
Marwan Al-Shehhi
Still Alive11
Alleged Pilot
Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi Banihammad
Fayez Rashid
Ahmed Alghamdi
Ahmed Alghamdi
U.S. Military1
Hamza Alghamdi
Hamza Alghamdi
Fabrications18
U.S. Military1
Photo of Mohand Alshehri
Mohand Alshehri

United Airlines #93 - Boeing 757
8:42 a.m. Departed Newark for San Francisco
10:03 a.m. Crashed in Stony Creek Township
Saeed Alghamdi
Saeed Alghamdi
Still Alive5
U.S. Military1
Ahmad Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi
Ahmad Haznawi
Ahmed Alnami
Ahmed Alnami
Still Alive7
U.S. Military1
Ziad Samir Jarrah
Ziad Samir Jarrah
Fabrications16
Alleged Pilot

The FBI still says these are the terrorists.14 But when they are found alive,
the FBI says their identity was stolen, and its not the terrorist.15

Remember that suspicious bin Laden "confession" video?

Back to top

1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/nation/specials/attacked/A38270- 2001Sep15.html
Washington Post - 9/16/01 - 2nd Witness Arrested; 25 Held for Questioning
Two of 19 suspects named by the FBI, Saeed Alghamdi and Ahmed Alghamdi, have the same names as men listed at a housing facility for foreign military trainees at Pensacola. Two others, Hamza Alghamdi and Ahmed Alnami, have names similar to individuals listed in public records as using the same address inside the base. In addition, a man named Saeed Alghamdi graduated from the Defense Language Institute at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio, while men with the same names as two other hijackers, Mohamed Atta and Abdulaziz Alomari, appear as graduates of the U.S. International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base, Ala., and the Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force Base in San Antonio, respectively.

order Mohamed Atta and the Venice Flying Circus, the real story of the Hijackers
2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
And there are suggestions that another suspect, Khalid Al Midhar, may also be alive.

http://www.azstarnet.com/attack/10928TERRORISTMUGGRAPHIC.html
Online Service of the Arizona Daily Star - 9/28/01 - Hijack suspect profiles
"An FBI notice to banks on Sept. 19 raised the possibility that Almihdhar might still be alive without speculating or explaining how that could be possible. "

http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/27/inv.suspects/
CNN - 9/28/01 - Details of hijacking suspects released
Khalid Almihdhar: there are reports he is still alive
3
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Another of the men named by the FBI as a hijacker in the suicide attacks on Washington and New York has turned up alive and well. Saudi Arabian pilot Waleed Al Shehri was one of five men that the FBI said had deliberately crashed American Airlines flight 11 into the World Trade Centre on 11 September. Now he is protesting his innocence from Casablanca, Morocco.
4
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=94438
'Suicide hijacker' is an airline pilot alive and well in Jeddah - 9/17/01
A man named by the US Department of Justice as a suicide hijacker of American Airlines flight 11 ­ the first airliner to smash into the World Trade Centre ­ is very much alive and living in Jeddah. Abdulrahman al-Omari, a pilot with Saudi Airlines, was astonished to find himself accused of hijacking ­ as well as being dead ­ and has visited the US consulate in Jeddah to demand an explanation.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_suspects.html
ABC - Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks
"The name [listed by the FBI] is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Center in New York," Abdulaziz Alomari told the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper.

http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
Mr Al-Omari, who was accused of hijacking the American Airlines plane that smashed into the the World Trade Centre's north tower, said that he was at his desk at the Saudi telecommunications authority in Riyadh when the attacks took place.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Abdulaziz Al Omari, another of the Flight 11 hijack suspects, has also been quoted in Arab news reports. He says he is an engineer with Saudi Telecoms, and that he lost his passport while studying in Denver.
5
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
The Saudi Airlines pilot, Saeed Al-Ghamdi, 25, and Abdulaziz Al-Omari, an engineer from Riyadh, are furious that the hijackers' "personal details" - including name, place, date of birth and occupation - matched their own.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
BBC - 9/23/01 - Hijack 'suspects' alive and well
Meanwhile, Asharq Al Awsat newspaper, a London-based Arabic daily, says it has interviewed Saeed Alghamdi. He was listed by the FBI as a hijacker in the United flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.
6
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
Mr Al-Hamzi is 26 and had just returned to work at a petrochemical complex in the industrial eastern city of Yanbou after a holiday in Saudi Arabia when the hijackers struck. He was accused of hijacking the American Airlines Flight 77 that hit the Pentagon. He said: "I have never been to the United States and have not been out of Saudi Arabia in the past two years." The FBI described him as 21 and said that his possible residences were Fort Lee or Wayne, both in New Jersey.
7
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml? xml=/news/2001/09/23/widen23.xml
Revealed: the men with stolen identities - 9/23/01
Mr Al-Nami, 33, from Riyadh, an administrative supervisor with Saudi Arabian Airlines, said that he was in Riyadh when the terrorists struck. He said: "I'm still alive, as you can see. I was shocked to see my name mentioned by the American Justice Department. I had never even heard of Pennsylvania where the plane I was supposed to have hijacked."
8
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/investigation.terrorism/index.html
CNN - FBI: Early probe results show 18 hijackers took part 9/13/01
Based on information from multiple law enforcement sources, CNN reported that Adnan Bukhari and Ameer Bukhari of Vero Beach Florida, were suspected to be two of the pilots who crashed planes into the World Trade Center. CNN later learned that Adnan Bukhari is still in Florida, where he was questioned by the FBI. We are sorry for the misinformation. A federal law enforcement source now tells CNN that Bukhari passed an FBI polygraph and is not considered a suspect. Through his attorney, Bukhari says that he is helping authorities. Ameer Bukhari died in a small plane crash last year.

Some of those involved in the plot left suicide notes, but they are not believed to have been the hijackers, a government source told The Associated Press. It was unclear whether those who left the notes actually killed themselves.
9
Cairo Times - 9/27/01
He also claimed that his son had called him two days after the attack, and described it as "a normal conversation." But he snarled when asked to give further details. Asked what country Muhammad had called from, he said, "The name of the country isn't written on the phone." Asked where Muhammad was now, he said, "Ask Mossad."

order Mohamed Atta and the Venice Flying Circus, the real story of the Hijackers
Video shows Atta was not suicidal, as he pays bills and returns rentals.
10
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-092101probe.story
Los Angeles Times - 9/21/01
A man by the same name is a pilot, whose father is a Saudi diplomat in Bombay. "I personally talked to both father and son today," said Gaafar Allagany, head of the Saudi Embassy's information center.
11
Saudi Gazette 9/18/01 and The Khaleej Times 9/20/01
Marwan al-Shehhi is still alive in Morocco
12
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/12/20/attack/main322092.shtml
CBS - Bin Laden Names Hijackers On Tape Dec. 20, 2001
He would identify only three: Nawaq Alhamzi, Salem Alhamzi and Wail Alshehri. Alshehri was on American Airlines flight 11, one of the planes that hit the Twin Towers at the World Trade Center in New York; Alhamzi and Alhamzi were on American Airlines flight 77, which hit the Pentagon.

Bin Laden's "smoking gun" video names living, uninvolved people? This makes no sense!
This is just the beginning, this "confession" video is full of abnormalities.
13
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1556096.stm
BBC- The last moments of Flight 11
The FBI has named five hijackers on board Flight 11, whereas Ms Sweeney spotted only four. Also, the seat numbers she gave were different from those registered in the hijackers' names.
14
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm
U.S. Department of Justice
Federal Bueau of Investigation - Hijackers
15
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1553754.stm
BBC - FBI probes hijackers' identities 9/21/01
It believes that some of the hijackers used false identities, possibly even names of people who are still alive, which could significantly complicate the manhunt.
16
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sns-worldtrade-jarrah- lat.story
Los Angeles Times - 10/23/01 - Friends of terror suspect say allegations make no sense
By Carol J. Williams Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
...Ziad and Salim ... left Lebanon together April 4, 1996, at the age of 20, heading to the eastern German town of Greifswald in pursuit of both an education and a good time.

Jarrah and the other three men named by the FBI as hijackers...initially came to be on the list of 19 because they "have been identified as having 'Arabic' names

http://web.archive.org/web/20010925123748/boston.com/dailyglobe2/268/nation/Hija ck_suspect_lived_a_life_or_a_lie%2B.shtml
Boston Globe - Hijack suspect lived a life, or a lie - 9/25/01
Although a Brooklyn apartment lease from 1995-1996 bears Ziad Jarrah's name - and landlords there have identified his photograph - his family insists he was in Beirut at the time.

How was he in Brooklyn and Lebanon at the same time?

..two days before the hijacking, his nephew called and told the family he'd be coming home for a cousin's wedding in mid-September. "He said he had even bought a new suit for the occasion."

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/08/01/cia.hijacker/index.html
CNN 8/1/02 - September 11 hijacker questioned in January 2001
The CIA suspected Ziad Jarrah had been in Afghanistan and wanted him questioned because of "his suspected involvement in terrorist activities," UAE sources said.

A CIA spokesman vigorously denied that the CIA knew anything about Jarrah before September 11 or had anything do with his questioning in Dubai.
17
The New Yorker - What Went Wrong
by Seymour Hersh - 10/1/01
Many of the investigators believe that some of the initial clues that were uncovered about the terrorists' identities and preparations, such as flight manuals, were meant to be found. A former high-level intelligence official told me, "Whatever trail was left was left deliberately--for the F.B.I. to chase."

In interviews over the past two weeks, a number of intelligence officials have raised questions about Osama bin Laden's capabilities. "This guy sits in a cave in Afghanistan and he's running this operation?" one C.I.A. official asked. "It's so huge. He couldn't have done it alone." A senior military officer told me that because of the visas and other documentation needed to infiltrate team members into the United States, a major foreign intelligence service might also have been involved.
18
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19549-2001Sep24.html
Washington Post - 9/25/01 - Some Light Shed On Saudi Suspects - A12
Still, the father of Alghamdi told Al Watan that the picture provided by the FBI was not that of his son. "It has no resemblance to him at all," he said.
19
http://www.newsday.com/ny-usflight232380680sep23.story
Tracing Trail Of Hijackers - By Thomas Frank - 9/23/01
At Freeway Airport in Bowie, Md., 20 miles west of Washington, flight instructor Sheri Baxter instantly recognized the name of alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour when the FBI released a list of 19 suspects in the four hijackings. Hanjour, the only suspect on Flight 77 the FBI listed as a pilot, had come to the airport one month earlier seeking to rent a small plane.... However, when Baxter and fellow instructor Ben Conner took....Hanjour on three test runs during the second week of August, they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172. .....chief flight instructor Marcel Bernard declined to rent him a plane without more lessons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A14365-2001Sep11.html
Washington Post - On Flight 77: 'Our Plane Is Being Hijacked' - 9/12/01 - Page A01
...the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.... Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm... Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious.
20
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/09/attack/main521223.shtml
CBS - Hijackers Lived With FBI Informant - Sept. 9, 2002
Two of the Sept. 11 hijackers who lived in San Diego in 2000 rented a room from a man who reportedly worked as an undercover FBI informant....the FBI informant prayed with them and even helped one open a bank account.



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:10:15 ET  (19 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#632. To: James Deffenbach (#619)

they would have been trumpeted, headlined, cut and pasted

And "massaged and twittered" as the idiot judge said about Obama's eligibility to be president (not that he had any proof of it, he just thought it sounded good).

That is mostly what the shills have phrases in a talking points briefing book that they cut and paste so that "it sounds good". The problem they run into is that they are almost bright and come unglued when faced with someone who dissects their spin for the misleading disinformation bullshit it is.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:12:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#633. To: IRTorqued (#627)

Why won't the government shills answer the questions about all the videos that were taken up, some of which were stolen from private owners? Not all the video taken that day was on government cameras, yet they seized every scrap they could get their hands on. And, as has been so well stated, if those videos actually backed up their fairy tale they would have been showing them nonstop starting that same day.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   13:12:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#634. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, all (#631)

All that and still no other pentagon videos released.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   13:13:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#635. To: James Deffenbach (#634)

We were thinking the same thing.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   13:14:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#636. To: O_Ink, buckeroo (#629) (Edited)

An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

You are intentionally misrepresenting their full in context statement, you are bull$hitting once again.

The explicit statement of the controllers, including ATC Danielle O'Brien, on a video I have repeatedly posted, they say "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

Not that it was not a 757.

But they did not expect 757's to be flown in the manner they saw the 757 shown.

The full in context quote, not your half-a$$ed, Half Truth cherry pick, is on 0:44 to 1:25 of the following video,

Debunked.

Again.

Oh yeah.

How did Danielle O'Brien pick a 757 in her quote if the plane was not in fact a 757?

Why didn't she say it was a 767 or a 737 or a 747?

Hmmm?

Wack- job

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   13:15:44 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#637. To: IRTorqued (#627)

there were how many other videos confiscated that day that remain under lock and key

There were hundreds of pictures and videos confiscated for evaluation. What makes you think they were not returned?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   13:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#638. To: FormerLurker (#631)

Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts? The shills aren't interested in facts - hell, they can barely read and are vocabulary challenged as evidenced about the constant whining about my using a vocabulary that flies over their heads like a 757 20 feet off the ground flying 530 mph into a wall only 26.5 feet higher than the plane. They're not interested in facts they're interested in cutting and pasting the PsyOp talking points on their list.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:20:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#639. To: AGAviator, ALL (#626)

They did not say that, you are bull$hitting once again.

The explicit statement of the controllers, including ATC Danielle O'Brien, on a video I have repeatedly posted, they say "You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

Not that it was not a 757.

But they did not expect 757's to be flown in the manner they saw the 757 shown.

The full in context quote, not your half-a$$ed, Half Truth cherry pick, is on 0:44 to 1:11 of the following video,

Debunked.

Again.

You conveniently omitted the sentence before that which you cut and pasted...

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

You've been caught in a lie, yet again.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:22:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#640. To: AGAviator (#636)

Oooooooooo! I am so impressed. You even know how to quote out of context and avoid every other point in the post. Well just so you don't forget "Play it again Sam."

As usual you are serially dishonest, misrepresenting and mischaraterizing the observed events.

From Al-Qaeda's Top Gun

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:23:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#641. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#631)

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77

The links contained at your link either don't work (bad URLs) or are complete bunk and conspiracy theory.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   13:25:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#642. To: Original_Intent (#638)

Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts?

The facts concerning the air traffic controllers comments have been posted how many times these past several days, yet AG thought he'd pull a fast one and omit the part that says, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane", and claims that they never said anything of the sort.

Either he's getting really sloppy, or is just that feeble minded he thinks we'll forget what we've read and posted.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:26:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#643. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker (#638)

Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts?

That was complete bunk.... his links point to nowhere or LALA land.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   13:27:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#644. To: OInk, buckeroo (#640)

The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

Huh?

Aren't you Half Tw00fers claiming the 757 didn't hit the lamps?

Now in your haste to put up some misrepresented shlock, you don't even bother to check your details with your talking points.

LOLOL!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   13:28:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#645. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#642)

... he [AG] thinks we'll forget what we've read and posted.

You have a consistent posting method that clearly shows you forget what you post as soon as you submit the same.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   13:29:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#646. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#631)

Are you aware of the fact that no arabs were on Flight 77?

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77

Wrong.

The autopsies and dead lists of victims were separated from suspects.

The hijackers were treated separatedly from the people innocently killed in the crashes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   13:30:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#647. To: buckeroo, AGAviator (#641)

Autopsy: No Arabs on Flight 77

The links contained at your link either don't work (bad URLs) or are complete bunk and conspiracy theory.

Sure buckie. SOME of the links are dead, such as the CNN link for instance. The majority of them work.

The only bunk being presented here comes from you and your sidekick, AGAviator.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:31:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#648. To: AGAviator (#646)

Wrong.

The autopsies and dead lists of victims were separated from suspects.

The hijackers were treated separatedly from the people innocently killed in the crashes.

Then provide some proof that the autopsy results indicate that arabs were indeed onboard Flight 77.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:32:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#649. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#639)

You conveniently omitted the sentence before that which you cut and pasted...

Of course he did - it didn't fit with his attempt to misrepresent the quote and create a false image of something other than what the import of the quote was i.e., that whoever flew that plane wasn't the known incompetent Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor who had never flown ANY kind of Jet Aircraft at ANY time, under ANY circumstances, AND was characterized without exception by every instructor he ever dealt with as I-N-C-O-M-P-E-T-E-N-T.

(Note to AGBloviator: Incompetent means that he could not fly worth a tinker's damn. If you need me to use smaller one syllable words that you understand please feel free to say so. I'm nothing if not accomodating. Or you could always ask your mommy.)

(Note to FL: Notice how he oscillates between Hanjoor being a well qualified candidate for Rictoften's Flying Circus and his being incompetent and lucky? Boy just can't make up his "mind". Just between you an me I think the boy's a little confused.)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:34:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#650. To: AGAviator (#644)

Huh?

Aren't you Half Tw00fers claiming the 757 didn't hit the lamps?

Oh Boy... here comes some more subterfuge!

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   13:35:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#651. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, Original_Intent (#644)

Aren't you Half Tw00fers claiming the 757 didn't hit the lamps?

You Full Liars are claiming that a 757 did in fact do that, yet witnesses place the 757 NORTH of that approach, and two Pentagon police officers state those poles WEREN'T knocked down immediately after the impact.

The news reports assume that the government wasn't lying about the light poles.

So why did YOU lie about what the air traffic controllers said about the manuevers the alleged 757 performed?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:35:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#652. To: FormerLurker (#647)

The majority of them work.

It doesn't matter your main post was about some shill with a FOIA .... and it is impossible to verify what he received... other than his "opinion."

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   13:37:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#653. To: Original_Intent (#649)

(Note to FL: Notice how he oscillates between Hanjoor being a well qualified candidate for Rictoften's Flying Circus and his being incompetent and lucky? Boy just can't make up his "mind". Just between you an me I think the boy's a little confused.)

Same as in the media's presentation of the story, where one day he's an ace pilot, and the next, an incompentant monkey who couldn't handle a Cessna 172.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:37:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#654. To: FormerLurker (#642)

Doggone it, don't you know better than to post well researched facts?

The facts concerning the air traffic controllers comments have been posted how many times these past several days, yet AG thought he'd pull a fast one and omit the part that says, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane", and claims that they never said anything of the sort.

Either he's getting really sloppy, or is just that feeble minded he thinks we'll forget what we've read and posted.

At this point I think his main concern is to attempt to muddy the trail and create the illusion that the facts don't say what they do and to make the thread unreadable to anyone not already in the know. His main objective now seems to be to repeat endlessly variations on the same discredited and disproven (now multiple times) cut and paste lines from his book of talking points.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:38:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#655. To: buckeroo (#652)

It doesn't matter your main post was about some shill with a FOIA

Shills are people such as yourself and your sidekick, AGAviator, who twist, distort, and misrepresent any evidence presented in an attempt to prop up the government's official conspiracy theory concerning the 9/11 attacks.

The person who you are calling a "shill", Dr. Thomas R. Olmsted, M.D, has much more credibility than yourself, so I'll take his word over yours, any day of the week.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:42:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#656. To: Original_Intent (#654)

At this point I think his main concern is to attempt to muddy the trail and create the illusion that the facts don't say what they do and to make the thread unreadable to anyone not already in the know. His main objective now seems to be to repeat endlessly variations on the same discredited and disproven (now multiple times) cut and paste lines from his book of talking points.

It proves he's not here posting for his own personal enjoyment.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   13:44:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#657. To: FormerLurker (#653)

(Note to FL: Notice how he oscillates between Hanjoor being a well qualified candidate for Rictoften's Flying Circus and his being incompetent and lucky? Boy just can't make up his "mind". Just between you an me I think the boy's a little confused.)

Same as in the media's presentation of the story, where one day he's an ace pilot, and the next, an incompentant monkey who couldn't handle a Cessna 172.

As with all stories subject to heavy spin and PsyOp control the best data is to be found early on where the contradictions are more apparent and they have not established a set line of spin. So, the various pilot quotes etc., came early and then the controlled media was clued in on the official spin and have since followed the script.

It has been interesting to follow the evolution of the spin over time. Initially it was the Sooper hijackers doing aerobatics in Jumbo Jets that "no one could have ever conceived of". Then the info on "Operation Bojinka" came out, and the gag order, which remains in effect to this day, was put on the Air Traffic Controllers. As well then the backgrounds on the supposed SOOPER Hijackers started getting researched and far from being devout Muslims they were known to drink heavily and consort with an assorted collection of whores and bimbos - none of which a devout Muslim would do. Particularly not one on a supposed "Holy Jihad™". Likewise the towers which have gone from Magick® Jet Fuel that could burn multiple times to physical properties previously unknown to science (and still are outside of the 911 SPIN).

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:48:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#658. To: James Deffenbach (#605)

Don't you be laughing, it will bring a tear to his eye.

I can't seem to help myself, laughing so hard it brings tears to my eyes. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-27   13:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#659. To: FormerLurker (#656)

At this point I think his main concern is to attempt to muddy the trail and create the illusion that the facts don't say what they do and to make the thread unreadable to anyone not already in the know. His main objective now seems to be to repeat endlessly variations on the same discredited and disproven (now multiple times) cut and paste lines from his book of talking points.

It proves he's not here posting for his own personal enjoyment.

No, judging by the level of frustration at being proved false multiple times and his tactics exposed I am sure that he long ago ceased enjoying himself. No bonus for him this week.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   13:56:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#660. To: OInk, buckeroo (#640) (Edited)

"You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

So your ***proof*** that it wasn't a 757, is an ATC saying that flying a 757 in that manner would be ***unsafe.***

Hey I know you're a little dim in your wattage output up there, but has it ever occurred to you that a suicide hijacker is not the least bit interested in maneuvering an aircraft ***safely?*****

Just as a suicide hijacker is not interested in the skills needed to be a safe pilot.

Post #571: Never Answered

The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.

Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed.

As is usual for a Half Truther, you omit the explicit statements of the flight instructors saying he was competent to do these tasks.

AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 22:48:48 ET

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   14:17:25 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#661. To: buckeroo, (#651)

So why did YOU lie about what the air traffic controllers said about the manuevers the alleged 757 performed?

The controllers gave an account consistent with what eyewitnesses observed.

Where you Half Tw00fers miss the mark is your a$$umptions that a suicide pilot would need the necessary skills a pilot interested in being safe would need - which he would not.

And that a suicide pilot would fly a passenger aircraft in the same manner that a safety-conscious regular pilot would fly the craft - which he would not.

So basically your half Two00fer spiel about Hanjour's piloting the 757 is supposed to be impossible, are the numerous observations that Hanjour lacked the skills and the inclination to be a safe pilot, and the 757 observed by the ATC's making a descending turn before disappearing from their screens was not being flown safely.

Well, DUHHHHHH!

Of course it wasn't going to be flown safely by a safety-conscious pilot!

It was being flown by a suicide hijacker.

LOLOL!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   14:28:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#662. To: OInk, buckeroo (#649) (Edited)

Incompetent means that he could not fly worth a tinker's damn

Already debuked, Half Two00fer halfwit.

Get it through your dense head that Hanjour was a suicide hijacker, and couldn't care less about observing flight control safety protocols which normal pilots train diligently to follow.

The question at issue is whether Hanjour was a qualified suicide hijacker, not whether he was a qualified safe pilot. And the same people who you quote as saying he was not a good pilot, say he had enough skills to be a hijacker, which you deceitfully leave out of your Half Truther k00kspiel.

Post #571: Never Answered

The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.

Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed.

As is usual for a Half Truther, you omit the explicit statements of the flight instructors saying he was competent to do these tasks.

AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 22:48:48 ET

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   14:35:16 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#663. To: AGAviator (#660)

Having had all of your strawmen burned and finding yourself without a resident thought of your own I guess you figured, or your boss told you, that it was time to return to the scene of your slime.

You are so delightfully predictable. However, I am not going to waste a lot of time with you.

You are still avoiding all of the points that prove your load of smoke to be a load of smoke - and rather foul smelling smoke at that.

For the edification of the viewing audience the information you consistently avoid and attempt to obscure.

One more time with feeling:

As usual you are serially dishonest, misrepresenting and mischaraterizing the observed events.

From Al-Qaeda's Top Gun

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   14:38:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#664. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#662)

Get it through your dense head that Hanjour was a suicide hijacker, and couldn't care less about observing flight control safety protocols which normal pilots train diligently to follow.

The question at issue is whether Hanjour was a qualified suicide hijacker, not whether he was a qualfied safe pilot. And the same people who you quote as saying he was not a good pilot, say he had enough skills to be a hijacker, which you deceitfully leave out of your Half Truther k00kspiel.

You're trying to sell the idea that any ole chump could fly a jumbo jet, perform precision manuevers, and dip it down to tree level at over 400 mph, then descend in a blink of an eye to 20 feet, keeping the nose level somehow, and not touching the ground for the last split second before it impacted the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall, hitting at 530 mph.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   14:42:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#665. To: OInk, buckeroo (#663) (Edited)

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8

Already debunked

(1) A 1/2 G turn does not require any special level of knowlege or capability.
(2) A banked turn of fewer degrees than is required for a private certificiate also does not require any special knowledge or capability
(3) A wobbly wing approach on a nap of the earth flight shows a pilot struggling to maintain control of the aircraft
Cite specifics of this supposed "knowledgeable and capable" aviation skills.

And the footnote to your “Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” quote says

The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. []7;]

You can't even provide a direct quote with specifics, Half Truther.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   14:46:18 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#666. To: AGAviator (#661)

The controllers gave an account consistent with what eyewitnesses observed.

Where you Half Tw00fers miss the mark is your a$$umptions that a suicide pilot would need the necessary skills a pilot interested in being safe would need - which he would not.

And that a suicide pilot would fly a passenger aircraft in the same manner that a safety-conscious regular pilot would fly the craft - which he would not.

Are you neglecting the reports from experienced pilots and aviation experts?


A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   14:48:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#667. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach (#665)

Already debunked

You haven't debunked anything.

Not a single thing.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   14:52:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#668. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#665)

And the footnote to your “Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” quote says

The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. []7;]

You can't even provide a direct quote with specifics, Half Truther.

From CNN.com - Hijackers 'knew what they were doing'

(CNN) -- To pull off the coordinated aerial attack on the World Trade Center and Pentagon on Tuesday, the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators, a flight expert said.

All four commercial jetliners seized in the air for the deadly assaults had just started transcontinental flights, ensuring that they carried the maximum amount of fuel.

One of the planes, United Airlines Flight 93, for example, could have carried as much as 200,000 pounds of the highly explosive fuel, according to one source, a veteran pilot.

By seizing four planes, diverting them from scheduled flight paths and managing to crash two into the twin towers of the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon, they must have had plenty of skill and training.

"They know what they were doing," said the source, a pilot with a major carrier for more than 30 years.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   14:56:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#669. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG, all (#666)

Are you neglecting the reports from experienced pilots and aviation experts?

Of course he is. It does not align with the misrepresentation he's making. The talking points manual clearly proscribes paying any attention to any data, no matter how well documented, which is contrary to the "Official Spin©".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   14:59:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#670. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#668)

From CNN.com - Hijackers 'knew what they were doing'

All four commercial jetliners seized in the air for the deadly assaults had just started transcontinental flights, ensuring that they carried the maximum amount of fuel.

One of the planes, United Airlines Flight 93, for example, could have carried as much as 200,000 pounds of the highly explosive fuel, according to one source, a veteran pilot.

By seizing four planes, diverting them from scheduled flight paths and managing to crash two into the twin towers of the World Trade Center and a third into the Pentagon, they must have had plenty of skill and training.

"They know what they were doing," said the source, a pilot with a major carrier for more than 30 years.

I couldn't but note how this fit with the early "Official Spin©" which we can compare to how it has morphed over the years as elements of the "Official Spin©" have been proven false and/or intentionally misleading - kind of like Bloviator.

Points that stand out:

The emphasis on the overstated quantity and "explosiveness" of the fuel - which we now know, and NIST was forced to admit, was all burned up in the first ten minutes after impact - much of it outside the towers.

The repeated emphasis on what SOOOOOOOPER pilots the alleged patsies for the crime were, which is belied by the records and testimony since researched.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   15:07:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#671. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG (#669)

The talking points manual clearly proscribes paying any attention to any data, no matter how well documented, which is contrary to the "Official Spin©".

Reminds me of AGW proponents.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-27   15:13:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#672. To: farmfriend, AGBloviator, FormerLurker, AGAviator, wudidiz, christine, abraxas, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, farmfriend, HOUNDDAWG (#671)

Oh, bloviator is one of those too. He is a firm advocate of all kinds of junk science.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   15:17:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#673. To: Original_Intent (#670)

The emphasis on the overstated quantity and "explosiveness" of the fuel - which we now know, and NIST was forced to admit, was all burned up in the first ten minutes after impact - much of it outside the towers.

Speaking of the jet fuel, and it's supernatural abilities to bring down two 110 story skyscrapers on the morning of 9/11, where's the huge fire and fire damage on the Pentagon wall where the left wing of the 757 was alleged to have struck?

Maybe they used some that Magickal Jet Fuel on Flight 77, where not only can it bring down skycrapers, but it can just VANISH INTO NOTHING INSTANTLY!!!

It also makes WINGS PASS THROUGH WINDOWS, as can be seen by the fact that the windows in the area of impact are NOT BROKEN. The area of impact would have extended to the left of the blue line in the image below.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   15:22:00 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#674. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#673)

It also makes WINGS PASS THROUGH WINDOWS, as can be seen by the fact that the windows in the area of impact are NOT BROKEN. The area of impact would have extended to the left of the blue line in the image below.

Isn't this the part where he says the wings "grinded" into nothing?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   15:29:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#675. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#666)

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8

Looking up footnote 8, it is a paraphrase and not a direct, specific quote.

An air traffic controller..." You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

Yes, a suicide hijcaker will fly a 757 in an unsafe manner. Why did he just so happen to mention a 757? How did he know it was a 757 and not a PA-135?

HAHAHAHAHA!

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes.

So they are saying it was Flight 77. Any questions about what flight it was, LOL?

And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

Those things will happen when you start out a$$uming someone who had a valid commercial pilot certificate "couldn't fly at all." So that puts the lie to the claims he "couldn't fly at all."

That being said, there is nothing really extraordinary about a 1/2 G turn that is not even up to the 2G standards required to get a private license, let alone a commercial certificate.

Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11

Flight 77's turn was 1/2 G.

Private pilot standards are 2G.

Figher pilots pull 8 to 9 G's.

Not even close.

Debunked and pwned.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   15:29:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#676. To: Oink, buckeroo, turtle (#672)

Post #571: Never Answered

The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker.

Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed.

As is usual for a Half Truther, you omit the explicit statements of the flight instructors saying he was competent to do these tasks.

AGAviator posted on 2010-07-26 22:48:48 ET

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   15:32:57 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#677. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#675)

Flight 77's turn was 1/2 G.

Private pilot standards are 2G.

Figher pilots pull 8 to 9 G's.

Not even close.

Debunked and pwned.

From The Washington Post

Controllers had time to warn the White House that the jet was aimed directly at the president's mansion and was traveling at a gut-wrenching speed -- full throttle.

But just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.

Less than an hour after two other jets demolished the World Trade Center in Manhattan, Flight 77 carved a hole in the nation's defense headquarters, a hole five stories high and 200 feet wide.

Aviation sources said the plane was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm, possibly one of the hijackers. Someone even knew how to turn off the transponder, a move that is considerably less than obvious.

Details about who was on Flight 77, when it took off and what happened on board were tightly held by airline, airport and security officials last night. All said that the FBI had asked them not to divulge details.

"Because of the heightened security due to the nature of today's events," American Airlines said in a statement, the airline "is working closely with U.S. government authorities and will not release more information at this time."


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   15:37:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#678. To: FormerLurker, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, IRTorqued, Dakmar, abraxas, all (#673)

Speaking of the jet fuel, and it's supernatural abilities to bring down two 110 story skyscrapers on the morning of 9/11, where's the huge fire and fire damage on the Pentagon wall where the left wing of the 757 was alleged to have struck?

My Gawd! You're right! The Pentagon should have collapsed neatly into its own footprint at nearly freefall velocity, but it didn't. Hmmmmmmmmmm? Bad batch of Magickal Jet Fuel™?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   15:44:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#679. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#677)

the unidentified pilot executed a pivot so tight that it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver. The plane circled 270 degrees to the right to approach the Pentagon from the west, whereupon Flight 77 fell below radar level, vanishing from controllers' screens, the sources said.

Debunked and wrong.

The tighter turn, the more G's the pilot pulls.

An 8G - 9G turn is tight. US, NATO, and Russian military fighter pilots regularly pull 8 G+ turns.

A 2G turn is required to get a private pilot license.

A 1/2 G turn is not even up to private pilot standards.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   15:50:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#680. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#676)

Post #571: Never Answered

The question is whether he was competent as a hijacker. Able to take over a plane already airborne, turn off the transponder, navigate it to a target, and crash it into the target at high speed.

Now what makes a "competent hijacker"?

Let's see, say IF by some act of whatever god he prayed to, he was able to navigate a 757 from Ohio to Washington, DC, a task he would have been unable to do since he had flunked out of simulator training and was a poor student who frequently skipped class.

Say he managed to get the aircraft down to 7000 feet from 35,000 feet once near Washington, line up with the White House according to first reports, later reports indicate he was heading straight for the section of the Pentagon containing high value targets such as Rumsfeld's office, let's ask the following question;

WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE VEER AWAY AND PERFORM PRECISION MANUEVERS to line up with the barely occupied OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE PENTAGON INSTEAD?

A SUICIDE PILOT would have simply reduced power and dove into the roof of the Pentagon, a target the size of 22 football fields, rather than performing complex maneuvers and impossible feats such as flying at over 400 mph at treetop level, then down to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph in order to hit a 71 foot tall target, the Pentagon wall.

So I guess he WAS an "incompetent hijacker" since an "incompetent pilot" wouldn't have been able to do any of those things, yet that IS what he did, or SOMEONE did, as that is how the plane flew its final approach.

Yet, from ALL reports, he WAS an incompetent pilot, so he COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THE PILOT OF FLIGHT 77, if that aircraft even WAS Flight 77.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   15:55:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#681. To: AGAviator, ALL (#679)

The tighter turn, the more G's the pilot pulls.

An 8G - 9G turn is tight. US, NATO, and Russian military fighter pilots regularly pull 8 G+ turns.

A 2G turn is required to get a private pilot license.

A 1/2 G turn is not even up to private pilot standards.

The quote was from experts, live with it.

The fact is, it is NOT EASY to properly control a large heavy jet aircraft, where the thrust needs to be precisely controlled and tuned for a precision turn involving descent, along with proper usage of the lift of the aircraft, where Hanjour NEVER FLEW A JET AIRCRAFT before, and was an EXTREMELY POOR STUDENT in flight school.

Experienced pilots would have been challenged to control the aircraft in the manner it was controlled, and air traffic controllers DID compare it to the performance of a military aircraft, not a passenger jet.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:00:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#682. To: AGAviator (#675)

Why did he just so happen to mention a 757? How did he know it was a 757 and not a PA-135?

He was interviewed AFTER the fact genius, not BEFORE. News reports identified the aircraft as Flight 77, a Boeing 757. Did you think anyone alive and cognent that day was unaware of that?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:06:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#683. To: wudidiz (#674)

Isn't this the part where he says the wings "grinded" into nothing?

Ground by Magickal Glass, where it can destroy aluminum wings travelling at 530 mph, and make jet fuel vanish.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:08:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#684. To: Original_Intent (#632)

The problem they run into is that they are almost bright

in a crooked kind of way.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   16:13:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#685. To: wudidiz (#635)

We were thinking the same thing.

Yeah, I knew your mind was comin' back to you. ahaha.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   16:15:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#686. To: FormerLurker (#681)

The quote was from experts, live with it.

Wtong. The quote is a paraphrase, and the facts of the turn contradict the paraphrases.

Hanjour NEVER FLEW A JET AIRCRAFT before, and was an EXTREMELY POOR STUDENT in flight school

That's why he hit the back of the building instead of the front, and why the plane was wobbling as it came in to crash, and why it clipped light poles and ingested a luminary into the right engine, and why it hit the face of a recently renovated part of the building with extra reinforcement, at an oblique angle instead of straight on..

None of those specifics are examples of skilled piloting, much less fighter pilot quality piloting. Live with it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   16:17:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#687. To: FormerLurker (#680)

Thanks for tackling that one. I've been ignoring it because it was such an obvious "have you quit beating your wife yet" type of conundrum one expects from one whose reasoning abilities are dictated by a flow chart someone wrote for him. However, it did need to receive a proper evisceration to demonstrate, as you ably did, that it is another bullshit diversion and has about as much substance as a London Fog.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   16:20:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#688. To: FormerLurker (#680)

Let's see, say IF by some act of whatever god he prayed to, he was able to navigate a 757 from Ohio to Washington, DC, a task he would have been unable to do since he had flunked out of simulator training and was a poor student who frequently skipped class.

As I've repeately stated, all you need to do to navigate with a VOR/DME is punch in 4 frequency digits onto an instrument on the dashboard.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   16:21:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#689. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#682)

He was interviewed AFTER the fact genius, not BEFORE. News reports identified the aircraft as Flight 77, a Boeing 757

Uhm, no.

ATC's are news sources, not news followers.

You're making things up.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   16:24:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#690. To: Original_Intent (#678)

My Gawd! You're right! The Pentagon should have collapsed neatly into its own footprint at nearly freefall velocity, but it didn't. Hmmmmmmmmmm? Bad batch of Magickal Jet Fuel™?

I think they only made enough of that for the planes that hit the twin towers and a little of it splashed on 7. That's what made them all get tired and fall down you know.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   16:27:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#691. To: AGAviator (#686) (Edited)

That's why he hit the back of the building instead of the front

So instead of the EASIEST approach, and most EFFECTIVE approach in terms of what a suicide pilot would perform in order to cause as much damage and fatalities as possible, he picked a DIFFICULT manuever to line up with a LOW VALUE target which would be typically IMPOSSIBLE to hit at that speed due to ground effect, yet he managed to overcome that and FLY INTO THAT 71 foot tall target, because he was an "EXTREMELY POOR PILOT"?

No, the evidence is such that WHOEVER flew that aircraft certainly DID know what they were doing, and it ALSO points to the fact that person couldn't have been Hani Hanjour.

and why the plane was wobbling as it came in to crash, and

Post a link to that allegation. Whether it "wobbled" or not, it had accomplished precision manuevers then flew at over 400 mph at tree top level, then descended to 20 feet off the ground without touching the lawn at 530 mph, FLYING into a target only 71 feet tall.

It couldn't have been "wobbling" on it's final approach BTW, otherwise its wings would have gouged the lawn and broken up there, causing the aircraft to spin, much like you are doing here on this thread.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:28:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#692. To: AGAviator (#689)

ATC's are news sources, not news followers.

You're making things up.

So you're saying they never watch TV News, nor read the paper?

Are you retarded?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:29:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#693. To: AGAviator (#688)

As I've repeately stated, all you need to do to navigate with a VOR/DME is punch in 4 frequency digits onto an instrument on the dashboard.

What are you qualifications in terms of navigating a 757?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:33:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#694. To: AGAviator (#686)

Hanjour NEVER FLEW A JET AIRCRAFT before, and was an EXTREMELY POOR STUDENT in flight school

That's why he hit the back of the building instead of the front, and why the plane was wobbling as it came in to crash,

at 20 feet off the ground and 530 mph, after making a hairline drop from treetop height which the plane traveled at for more than a mile.

You are a hoot. You've altenately maintained he was a highly skilled pilot because he somehow managed to obtain the lowest level of Commercial Pilot License and then when the testimony and records show that to be false i.e., that he, as one instructor put it, "he could not fly at all" you suddenly flip flop and now, just for the moment, agree that he really was a really bad pilot - but still capable of flying a 757 when he had NEVER EVER been behind the stick of ANY Jet Aircraft at ANY TIME, in ANY place, had never flown anything larger than a 4 seat, twin engine propeller driven, Piper Apache, and was described by ALL of his flight instructors as a poor student and even worse pilot without exception. Regardless of how many different ways your talking points are shown to be false you come back with the exact same dishonest and disproven talking points as though by repeating the same failed talking points if you reword them one more time they will suddenly become true. You are definitely persistent - but then so is a mule pulling a plow. Do you get paid by the word, the post, or are you hourly or on salary?

Ref: Al-Qaeda's Top Gun

...The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12 ...

...Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   16:47:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#695. To: FormerLurker (#691)

So instead of the EASIEST approach, and most EFFECTIVE approach in terms of What a suicide pilot would perform in order to cause as much damage and fatalities as possible, he picked a DIFFICULT manuever to line up with a LOW VALUE target with what would be typically IMPOSSIBLE to hit at that speed due to ground effect, yet he managed to overcome that and FLY INTO THAT 71 foot tall target, because he was an "EXTREMELY POOR PILOT"?

He had a plan he was not able to follow. His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top.

When events get away from him, he had to improvise in an extremely stressful situation. Just because he didn't come up with a 20/20 perfect plan in hindsight to you does not mean anything.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   16:48:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#696. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#691)

It couldn't have been "wobbling" on it's final approach BTW, otherwise its wings would have gouged the lawn and broken up there, causing the aircraft to spin, much like you are doing here on this thread.

LOL!

And here we go around the Fruit Loop again as Bloviator reprises his greatest, failed, talking points.

The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   16:50:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#697. To: FormerLurker (#693) (Edited)

What are you qualifications in terms of navigating a 757?

All cockpit displays and controls are laid out basically the same. Some have a few more instrument indicators and controls than others, that's it. All VOR's work the same as well.

There is nothing special about a 757 cockpit and instrument layout. If you want to claim there is, put your evidence side by side with the conventional instrment layout as you deem it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   16:52:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#698. To: AGAviator (#695)

His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top.

So instead of PLANNING the easiest and most effective approach, he PLANNED to use the most difficult and INEFFECTIVE way he could find, because he liked a challenge?

Uh huh.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:52:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#699. To: AGAviator (#697)

All cockpits are laid out basically the same.

What are your qualifications with a 757?

As far as "all cockpits are laid out basically the same", that's a lie. A single engine craft has a tiny fraction of the controls a commericial airliner would have, or from what a private jet would have.

He had never flown ANY jet in his life.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:55:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#700. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#698)

His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top.

So instead of PLANNING the easiest and most effective approach, he PLANNED to use the most difficult and INEFFECTIVE way he could find, because he liked a challenge?

Uh huh.

The most damage causing approach is horizontal. A vertical approach would waste most of its energy digging a great big hole in the ground.

Try thinking for a few moments before posting reflex denials.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   16:55:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#701. To: FormerLurker (#699)

As far as "all cockpits are laid out basically the same", that's a lie. A single engine craft has a tiny fraction of the controls a commericial airliner would have, or from what a private jet would have.

Wrong.

Name the differences instead of waving your arms. Then say where they are located.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   16:56:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#702. To: Original_Intent (#696)

And here we go around the Fruit Loop again as Bloviator reprises his greatest, failed, talking points.

The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow.

He can't decide whether he wants to build him up, or tear him down. The spin is making my head dizzy...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#703. To: AGAviator, ALL (#700) (Edited)

The most damage causing approach is horizontal. A vertical approach would waste most of its energy digging a great big hole in the ground.

If you're talking about a rock or a missile, perhaps.

A LARGE JUMBO JET on the other hand would cause MUCH more damage from the TOP of the building, hitting its ROOF, as its wings would blow apart and spread tens of thousands of gallons of JET FUEL which would engulf a large area of the structure in flames and explode.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   16:59:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#704. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#695)

So instead of the EASIEST approach, and most EFFECTIVE approach in terms of What a suicide pilot would perform in order to cause as much damage and fatalities as possible, he picked a DIFFICULT manuever to line up with a LOW VALUE target with what would be typically IMPOSSIBLE to hit at that speed due to ground effect, yet he managed to overcome that and FLY INTO THAT 71 foot tall target, because he was an "EXTREMELY POOR PILOT"?

He had a plan he was not able to follow. His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top.

When events get away from him, he had to improvise in an extremely stressful situation. Just because he didn't come up with a 20/20 perfect plan in hindsight to you does not mean anything.

So, let me, ha, ha, ha, see if I get this right. Because he was able to miss the easy target this incompetent suddenly becomes a, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, Jet Ace able to fly a Jumbo Jet at tree top height at 400+ mph and then with micrometer like touches to the controls wobble to 20 feet off the ground, leaving 2.5 feet between the engine cowlings and the ground, simultaneously accelerating to 530 mph and run a Jet Aircraft, while he had NEVER in his entire life flown anything larger than a 4 seater, propeller driven Piper Apache, into a 71 foot high wall which was only 26.5 feet higher than the plane. You actually want living sentient beings to believe this? C'mon admit it - you're smokin' another "fattie".

You really should book the Poconoes. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha,ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

You just can't make this shit up.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   17:00:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#705. To: AGAviator (#701)

Wrong.

Name the differences instead of waving your arms. Then say where they are located

I don't claim to be a 757 pilot, where you are acting as if YOU are. Explain your qualifications to say ANYTHING about the cockpit of a 757, short of public information which is easily found on Google.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:00:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#706. To: FormerLurker (#702)

And here we go around the Fruit Loop again as Bloviator reprises his greatest, failed, talking points.

The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow.

He can't decide whether he wants to build him up, or tear him down. The spin is making my head dizzy...

The boy's just plain confuuuuuuuused - one side is speaking one thing the other side the other. It's like dealing with "Two Face". T'ain't playin' with a full load. Whar's his senseahumor.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   17:03:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#707. To: Former Lurker, Oink, buckeroo (#696)

It couldn't have been "wobbling" on it's final approach BTW, otherwise its wings would have gouged the lawn and broken up there, causing the aircraft to spin, much like you are doing here on this thread

It is a documented fact that the 757's wings clipped light standards and also partially but not completely knockeded the tops of construction equipment on the lawns.

So your self-serving claims of either he had to bury the wings in the ground, or else fly perfectly straight and level, is a crock, as are all the rest of your Half Truths.

He did what he needed to do, just barely, and in the wrong location. Deal with it.

The words "Epic Fail" seem to resonate somehow.

17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.)

In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

So what government and media sources are acceptable to you as evidence, Oink? I'm seeing a near perfect adherence to the disinfo tactics you pretend everybody else except you engages in.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   17:06:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#708. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#701)

Name the differences instead of waving your arms.

Let's see, first off there are at least 4 sticks on a console between the pilot and co-pilot to control the engine thrust on a 4 engine jet, NO stick on most single engine planes, where the control is a rod that is pulled out or pushed into the instrument panel to increase or decrease engine speed.

That's something VERY basic. Most of the instruments, if not all of them, are computer generated images on various displays on the instrument panel of a private jet, not analog indicators as that found on a single engine aircraft such as a Cessna 172.

The list goes on and on, but you get the picture...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:10:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#709. To: (#707)

How many roads must a man walk down
Before you call him a man ?
How many seas must a white dove sail
Before she sleeps in the sand ?
Yes, how many times must the cannon balls fly
Before they're forever banned ?
The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind
The answer is blowin' in the wind.

Yes, how many years can a mountain exist Before it's washed to the sea ? Yes, how many years can some people exist Before they're allowed to be free ? Yes, how many times can a man turn his head Pretending he just doesn't see ? The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind The answer is blowin' in the wind.

Yes, how many times must a man look up Before he can see the sky ? Yes, how many ears must one man have Before he can hear people cry ? Yes, how many deaths will it take till he knows That too many people have died ? The answer my friend is blowin' in the wind The answer is blowin' in the wind.

;)

christine  posted on  2010-07-27   17:11:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#710. To: AGAviator (#700)

His plan was to hit the building from the side, not from the top.

So instead of PLANNING the easiest and most effective approach, he PLANNED to use the most difficult and INEFFECTIVE way he could find, because he liked a challenge?

Uh huh.

The most damage causing approach is horizontal. A vertical approach would waste most of its energy digging a great big hole in the ground.

Try thinking for a few moments before posting reflex denials.

And you know and can prove this was his plan how?

Were you on the inside helping to plan this attack?

If not how do you know what the plan of attack was?

GOT PROOF?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   17:11:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#711. To: FormerLurker (#708)

Name the differences instead of waving your arms.

Let's see, first off there are at least 4 sticks on a console between the pilot and co-pilot to control the engine thrust on a 4 engine jet, NO stick on most single engine planes, where the control is a rod that is pulled out or pushed into the instrument panel to increase or decrease engine speed.

That's something VERY basic. Most of the instruments, if not all of them, are computer generated images on various displays on the instrument panel of a private jet, not analog indicators as that found on a single engine aircraft such as a Cessna 172.

The list goes on and on, but you get the picture...

He might but he'll deny he does with more vague arm waving, histrionics, and avoidance. Der talkink points vill bhe adhered to!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   17:14:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#712. To: AGAviator (#707)

It is a documented fact that the 757's wings clipped light standards and also partially but not completely knockeded the tops of construction equipment on the lawns.

It would HAD to have knocked over light poles to reach the target while flying 20 feet off the ground. Same goes for anything else in the alleged path.

So what? Its wings had to be level or they would have HIT THE GROUND.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:14:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#713. To: christine (#709)

Yes indeed: "The answer is blowin' in the wind."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   17:15:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#714. To: Oink, buckeroo (#704) (Edited)

Because he was able to miss the easy target this incompetent suddenly becomes a, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, Jet Ace able to fly a Jumbo Jet at tree top height at 400+ mph and then with micrometer like touches to the controls wobble to 20 feet off the ground, leaving 2.5 feet between the engine cowlings and the ground, simultaneously accelerating to 530 mph

American Airlines 757 parts were found both inside and outside the Pentagon, Half Two00fer Half Wit.

Deal with it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   17:16:08 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#715. To: FormerLurker (#712)

Its wings had to be level or they would have HIT THE GROUND

They barely cleared the ground as they wobbled and the plane banked 1 way and then the other.

One eyewitness said he had to hit the deck to avoid being hit by the airplane wings. And he did say it was an airplane.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   17:18:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#716. To: AGAviator, ALL (#707)

Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.)

In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

Wow, so those are the tactics you're trying here, eh? Well you needn't inform us of that, since we already know. It's quite obvious actually.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:19:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#717. To: AGAviator (#715)

They barely cleared the ground as they wobbled and the plane banked 1 way and then the other.

One eyewitness said he had to hit the deck to avoid being hit by the airplane wings. And he did say it was an airplane.

Being the fact the fuselage is said to have been at an altitude of 20 feet, how high where the bottom of the engines? Between 2 to 3 feet off the ground, that's how high.

ANY wobble would have buried an engine, pulled the wing down, gouged the lawn, and made the aircraft tumble or spin out of control.

AT MINIMUM it would have gouged the lawn, yet it didn't, so IT didn't happen.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:22:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#718. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#707)

So what government and media sources are acceptable to you as evidence, Oink?

You're dissembling again Harcourt Fenton Mudd.

You can quote the disinfo points all you want.

However, any source is acceptable - as long as it is true and correct.

However, your attempted diversion does not change your own self contradictions in your arguments which have changed over time from:

Because he had a Commercial Ticket he was therefore automatically the heir of Baron Friedrich Von Rictoften.

Which has now morphed into

His wings were wobbly.

Which despite the rhetorical flourishes IS the evolution of your argument talking points.

No, at this point all you can do, and it is what you are doing, is to try to throw up any old crap and see if you can make it stick to the wall. And the rest of us who are interested in the truth of what really happened on 911 are busy hosing it off.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   17:24:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#719. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#714)

American Airlines 757 parts were found both inside and outside the Pentagon, Half Two00fer Half Wit.

Where did all the fuel disappear to, and how did the wing not break those windows upon impact? Was it MAGICK? Did it just pass through that glass magickly, and/or did the fuel simply vanish?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:26:45 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#720. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, AGAviator, *9-11* (#719)

Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine Questions Flight 77


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   17:30:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#721. To: AGAviator (#707) (Edited)

He did what he needed to do, just barely, and in the wrong location. Deal with it.

Well probably not "he", but "someone" DID do what they "needed to do". Thing is, WHO is that "someone".

BTW, it WASN'T the "wrong location" if it was an inside job.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#722. To: wudidiz (#720)

Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine Questions Flight 77

Great vid, thank's for posting it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:33:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#723. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#717) (Edited)

Being the fact the fuselage is said to have been at an altitude of 20 feet

"Is said to"

Flight Instruments

Most aircraft built since about 1953 have four of the flight instruments located in a standardized pattern called the T arrangement. The attitude indicator is in the top center, airspeed to the left, altimeter to the right and heading indicator under the attitude indicator. The other two, turn-coordinator and vertical-speed, are usually found under the airspeed and altimeter, but are given more latitude in placement. The magnetic compass will be above the instrument panel, often on the windscreen centerpost. In newer aircraft with glass cockpit instruments the layout of the displays conform to the basic T arrangement.

Additional panel instruments that may not be found in smaller aircraft include:

Course Deviation Indicator

Radio Magnetic Indicator

Busted again.

You really have to stop wasting my time with your reflexive ritualistic challenges that have no basis of your own to support them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   17:34:38 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#724. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#720)

Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine Questions Flight 77

***Questions.***

So what conclusions does he express, and how does he explain away the AA 757 aircraft debris.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   17:37:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#725. To: AGAviator (#723)

Now show where the FLIGHT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM is located on a Cessna 172. You know, the one that controls various aspects of flight on a commericial airliner, such as NAVIGATION.

Flight management system


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:38:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#726. To: AGAviator, wudidiz (#724)

So what conclusions does he express, and how does he explain away the AA 757 aircraft debris.

Irrelevant. If the hole is too small, and there is no jet fuel where the left wing should have impacted, nor physical damage to glass windows in that location, then it WAS NOT a 757.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:39:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#727. To: AGAviator (#724)

So what conclusions does he express, and how does he explain away the AA 757 aircraft debris.

You should watch it.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   17:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#728. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, christine, ALL (#723)

Busted again.

You really have to stop wasting my time with your reflexive ritualistic challenges that have no basis of your own to support them.

Still waiting for you to explain to me the location of the Flight Management System on a Cessna 172.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:48:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#729. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, christine, ALL (#728)

.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   17:50:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#730. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#723)

Gee, that sure looks a lot like this 757 Cockpit doesn't it:

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   17:55:56 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#731. To: wudidiz (#729)

After 45 minutes from the impact, the structure in and around the direct impact collapsed..... hmmm.... sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it? You know, fire and structures weakened by a tremendous jet mass in a near horizontal collision.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   17:57:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#732. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, christine, ALL (#729) (Edited)

WOW!

LOOK at 0:43 seconds into the video, there are individuals wearing some form of official (FBI?) jackets getting off a bus, carrying FULL CANVAS BAGS TOWARDS THE PENTAGON!!!!!!

Initial reports of NO debris were correct apparently, and it is obvious from the video there is NO FIRE ANYWHERE on the EXTERNAL WALLS of the PENTAGON.

No jet fuel was sprayed at all apparently, where a 757's wings would have sprayed fuel ALL over the walls and more than likely part of the roof.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   17:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#733. To: Original_Intent (#730)

Gee, that sure looks a lot like this 757 Cockpit doesn't it:

Not just that, but there IS no Flight Management System on a Cessna 172, yet it is required in order to actually navigate the 757.

On private jets, a FMS might look like something below, which is VASTLY different than what a single engine plane would have in terms of flight instruments.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   18:03:27 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#734. To: FormerLurker (#725)

Now show where the FLIGHT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM

You don't need a ***Flight Management System*** to navigate by using a VORTAC/DME.

Go look it up, I'm getting tired of you wasting my time.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   18:04:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#735. To: AGAviator (#734)

You don't need a ***Flight Management System*** to navigate by using a VORTAC/DME.

Now where on the 757 is the VORTAC/DME?

Answer: It's on the FLIGHT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM, isn't it?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   18:08:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#736. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#733)

yet it is required in order to actually navigate the 757

Wrong.

You punch in the frequency of the VORTAC station you are interested in, and you will see on your ***CDI*** which is on the instrument cluster, on most small planes as well as the large ones, heading, distance, and course deviation.

If you do not have a CDI on your instrument cluster, you will have a difficult time getting permission to fly in any controlled airspace subject to directions from the FAA or the airport.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   18:12:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#737. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#735)

Answer: It's on the FLIGHT MANAGEMENT SYSTEM, isn't it?

No.

It may be connected to the FMS on planes that have an FMS, but exists independently of the FMS and does not need an FMS to be installed to work.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   18:16:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#738. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#736) (Edited)

You punch in the frequency of the VORTAC station you are interested in, and you will see on your ***CDI*** which is on the instrument cluster, on most small planes as well as the large ones, heading, distance, and course deviation.

I doubt that would work on a 757, since it appears ALL navigation is controlled through the FMS. Post a link that explains how to utilize the information given by a VORTAC station on a 757. Explain how the hijacker could have determined his current position, and plotted a course to bring him to Washington, then engage autopilot. Wait, autopilot was ON the entire duration of the flight, except upon final approach to Washington. A Boeing 757 would at minimum need to utilize the FMS to engage autopilot.

From Boeing 757- 200 Background

Flight Deck

The 757-200 flight deck, designed for two-crew member operation, pioneered the use of digital electronics and advanced displays. Those offer increased reliability and advanced features compared to older electro- mechanical instruments.

A fully integrated flight management computer system (FMCS) provides for automatic guidance and control of the 757-200 from immediately after takeoff to final approach and landing. Linking together digital processors controlling navigation, guidance and engine thrust, the flight management system assures that the aircraft flies the most efficient route and flight profile for reduced fuel consumption, flight time and crew workload.

The precision of global positioning satellite (GPS) system navigation, automated air traffic control functions, and advanced guidance and communications features are now available as part of the new Future Air Navigation System (FANS) flight management computer.

The captain and the first officer each have a pair of electronic displays for primary flight instrumentation. The electronic attitude director indicator displays airplane attitude and autopilot guidance cues. The electronic horizontal situation indicator displays a video map of navigation aids, airports, and the planned airplane route and can display a weather-radar image over these ground features.

The engine indicating and crew alerting system, often called EICAS, monitors and displays engine performance and airplane system status before takeoff. It also provides caution and warning alerts to the flight crew if necessary. EICAS monitoring also aids ground crews by providing maintenance information.

The 757-200 is available with a wind shear detection system that alerts flight crews and provides flight-path guidance to cope with it. Wind shear, caused by a violent down-burst of air that changes speed and direction as it strikes the ground, can interfere with a normal takeoff and landing.

Flight decks of the 757 and 767 are nearly identical and both aircraft have a common type-rating. Pilots qualified to fly one of the aircraft also can fly the other with only minimal additional familiarization.

Built-in test equipment helps ground crews troubleshoot avionics and airplane systems quickly for easier maintenance than on earlier aircraft. Structural maintenance needs are reduced, owing to new methods of corrosion protection including application of special sealants and enameling of major portions of the fuselage.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   18:22:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#739. To: AGAviator (#737)

It may be connected to the FMS on planes that have an FMS, but exists independently of the FMS and does not need an FMS to be installed to work.

Explain how auto pilot can be engaged without the FMS on a 757.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   18:23:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#740. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, abraxas, christine, IRTorqued, RickyJ, ALL (#737)

BTW, what do you think of those guys with full bags of something, getting off the bus, walking towards the Pentagon after the attack?

You know, the ones at 0:43 in this video...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   18:41:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#741. To: wudidiz (#740)

Sorry, forgot to ping you to the above post. I wonder how long it'll take AGAviator to find some "explanation"...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   18:44:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#742. To: FormerLurker (#698)

So instead of PLANNING the easiest and most effective approach, he PLANNED to use the most difficult and INEFFECTIVE way he could find, because he liked a challenge?

Uh huh.

LOL! It looks like aggravator/blowviator and buck would get tired of getting their butts kicked from one thread to the next all day every day.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   18:55:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#743. To: FormerLurker (#741) (Edited)

Good video, I have seen it before but it doesn't hurt to see it again.

The Pentagon lawn was just about perfect in front of the Pentagon. Any plane crashing there would have torn the lawn up.

I am thinking now the earlier bombs that went off before the alleged flight 77 got there, were only a few small bombs, just enough to get people cleared out of that area before the majority of the bombs went off which could not be kept under wraps as easily if there were any people still there that happened to survive.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-27   18:57:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#744. To: James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#742)

It looks like aggravator/blowviator and buck would get tired of getting their butts kicked from one thread to the next all day every day.

You know what is really phunney? I was thinking the same thing about FL and O_I and the 4um pseudo-comedian chat club, of which you are obviously fully integrated within.

AG has kicked both FL and O_I's ass.... time after time after time.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   18:58:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#745. To: buckeroo, James Deffenbach, AGAviator (#744) (Edited)

AG has kicked both FL and O_I's ass.... time after time after time.

In your deluded mind. Tell me buck, how does one instruct the Flight Management Computer on a 757 to change course, and how would you enter a new destination for the autopilot to follow...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:01:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#746. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#738)

I doubt that would work on a 757

Already giving yourself an out, I see.

It appears ALL navigation is controlled through the FMS. Post a link that explains how to utilize the information given by a VORTAC station on a 757.

You are wrong, and given your history of untrue accusations based purely on conjecture and unwillingness to face facts, I won't do research for you.

If you actually want the truth, and aren't just trying to obfuscate, contact VORTAC/DME manufacturers of and put your 757/FMS questions to them directly.

As a general rule, you can presume that nearly all items in any aircraft system can be disconnected manually.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:03:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#747. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#745)

ell me buck, how does one instruct the Flight Management Computer on a 757 to change course, and how to enter a new destination for the autopilot to follow...

You keep moving the goalposts after being debunked one untenable charge after another.

Contact the VORTAC or FMS systems makers and put your questions to them.

For once you have an opportunity to do some original research.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:06:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#748. To: Original_Intent (#704)

So, let me, ha, ha, ha, see if I get this right. Because he was able to miss the easy target this incompetent suddenly becomes a, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, Jet Ace able to fly a Jumbo Jet at tree top height at 400+ mph and then with micrometer like touches to the controls wobble to 20 feet off the ground, leaving 2.5 feet between the engine cowlings and the ground, simultaneously accelerating to 530 mph and run a Jet Aircraft, while he had NEVER in his entire life flown anything larger than a 4 seater, propeller driven Piper Apache, into a 71 foot high wall which was only 26.5 feet higher than the plane. You actually want living sentient beings to believe this? C'mon admit it - you're smokin' another "fattie".

I get it now, he's a freakln' out of work comedian!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   19:08:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#749. To: buckeroo (#744)

It looks like aggravator/blowviator and buck would get tired of getting their butts kicked from one thread to the next all day every day.

AG has kicked both FL and O_I's ass.... time after time after time

One of these furballs actually posted that a vertical strike from the roof that digs a great big hole in the ground, would have been preferential to a horizontal attack that expends all its energy knocking down building supports, and destroying offices till the plane grinds to a stop, deep within the building.

No, I did not make this up.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:11:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#750. To: AGAviator (#747)

You [FL] keep moving the goalposts after being debunked one untenable charge after another.

FL is trying ... struggling, actually .... to keep up with his own expertise.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   19:13:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#751. To: wudidiz (#729)

Good job, what it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   19:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#752. To: AGAviator (#749)

One of these furballs actually posted that a vertical strike from the roof that digs a great big hole in the ground, would have been preferential to a horizontal attack that expends all its energy knocking down building supports, and destroying offices till the plane grinds to a stop, deep within the building.

They don't understand the difference between a pile of ragheads armed with boxcutters hijacking a passenger jet airline and a GPS guided cruise missle armed with a warhead of various types.

They are silly, at best. This is another thread, that just keeps me laffing .... sometimes I can't stop ... and the belly aching is all too much.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   19:17:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#753. To: AGAviator, ALL (#747) (Edited)

Contact the VORTAC or FMS systems makers and put your questions to them.

The VORTAC is simply a navigational aid, which indicates the aircraft's bearing in terms of magnetic north and the VOR station.

But that's irrelevant since the autopilot is what navigated the aircraft, thus the Flight Management Computer HAD to have been instructed to plot a new course.

So the process of navigating the plane from Ohio to Washington is a bit more difficult than you claim, not in terms of navigational expertise, but in terms of knowing how to work the Flight Management Computer.

The 757 FMS is NOT the same as that on a 737 simulator, on which he allegedly "trained". Besides, he was described as a poor student who frequently skipped class and who ended up flunking out. Being the FMS menus and such are in English, which he was extremely poor at, he probably couldn't learn how to operate it on a 737, never mind on a totally different system as that found in a 757 cockpit.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:17:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#754. To: buckeroo (#750)

FL is trying ... struggling, actually .... to keep up with his own expertise.

If you're keeping score, I believe it was FL saying that a vertical attack through the roof that digs a big hole in the ground is preferable to a horizontal one through the walls.

That's a good example for a case study of reflexive unthinking denials....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:19:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#755. To: FormerLurker (#745)

AG has kicked both FL and O_I's ass.... time after time after time.

In your deluded mind. Tell me buck, how does one instruct the Flight Management Computer on a 757 to change course, and how would you enter a new destination for the autopilot to follow...

buck seems to have been imbibing a particularly strong batch of Sterno and KOOK AID. I tried to tell him before I had to send him to bozoland that that $#it was gonna kill him but he didn't pay any attention. And see what's happened? His mind, what little he had, is plumb gone.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   19:20:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#756. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#753)

But that's irrelevant since the autopilot is what navigated the aircraft

Not if it's turned off.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:21:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#757. To: AGAviator, ALL (#749)

One of these furballs actually posted that a vertical strike from the roof that digs a great big hole in the ground, would have been preferential to a horizontal attack that expends all its energy knocking down building supports

Hey Einstein, a JUMBO JET carrying approximately 10,000 gallons of JET FUEL crashing into the roof of the Pentagon would do a bit more damage than hitting a steel/kevlar reinforced brick wall.

Oh wait, that was MAGICKAL FUEL, since it simply VANISHED when the plane hit the side of the building.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:21:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#758. To: AGAviator (#756)

Not if it's turned off.

The NTSB stated that the autopilot was on the entire flight, except for a slight course correction between Ohio and Washington, then it was reengaged till it neared Washington DC.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:24:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#759. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#757)

Hey Einstein, a JUMBO JET carrying approximately 10,000 gallons of JET FUEL crashing into the roof of the Pentagon would do a bit more damage than hitting a steel/kevlar reinforced brick wall.

And what are the relative values of more than a gigajoule of kinetic energy in a horizontal attack, vs. the thermal content of 10,000 gallons of jet fuel, Einstein wannabe?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:25:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#760. To: buckeroo (#752)

They don't understand the difference between a pile of ragheads armed with boxcutters hijacking a passenger jet airline

For one, some of them are still alive, so I doubt they're the ones who hijacked the planes and flew them into buildings as alleged.

For two, besides the fact the alleged hijacker who took over Flight 77 and allegedly flew it, Hani Hanjour, was a totally inept "pilot" who his instructors stated "couldn't fly at all", the fact is there was NO JET FUEL FIRE on the exterior walls of the Pentagon, thus indicating there WAS NO 757 which hit it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:28:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#761. To: AGAviator (#759)

And what are the relative values of more than a gigajoule of kinetic energy in a horizontal attack, vs. the thermal content of 10,000 gallons of jet fuel, Einstein wannabe?

How many gigajoules of energy were spent tearing the plane into tiny bits, as opposed to how much damage would have occured if the entire roof of the Pentagon had been set ablaze?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:29:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#762. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#758)

The NTSB stated that the autopilot was on the entire flight, except for a slight course correction between Ohio and Washington, then it was reengaged till it neared Washington DC.

Dig, dig, dig.

So now you (1) Believe the NTSB, and (2) Concede that Hanjour knew enough to turn the autopilot off and on which demonstrates he likely could operate it if he needed to - which he didn't, (3) Have still not demonstrated that you can't simply navigate by punching the VORTAC/DME frequency into that instrument directly, regardless of what the FMS is doing.

You're on a roooollllll!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:30:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#763. To: AGAviator (#759)

Oh and what are the odds of hitting a structure the size of 22 football fields from an angled dive, as opposed to hitting a 71 foot tall target flying at 530 mph?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:31:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#764. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#761)

How many gigajoules of energy were spent tearing the plane into tiny bits,

The same amount as was spent in equal and opposite reactions on the items doing the tearing.

Thanks for playing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   19:31:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#765. To: AGSmokegenerator, AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, James Deffenbach, all (#746)

I doubt that would work on a 757

Already giving yourself an out, I see.

It appears ALL navigation is controlled through the FMS. Post a link that explains how to utilize the information given by a VORTAC station on a 757.

You are wrong, and given your history of untrue accusations based purely on conjecture and unwillingness to face facts, I won't do research for you.

If you actually want the truth, and aren't just trying to obfuscate, contact VORTAC/DME manufacturers of and put your 757/FMS questions to them directly.

As a general rule, you can presume that nearly all items in any aircraft system can be disconnected manually.




Shill to English Translator V 1.1 ©Truth Software, Cupertino CA


>Start Run<

You are wrong, and given your history of untrue accusations based purely on conjecture and unwillingness to face facts, I won't do research for you.

Translated Output: I have no clue and am completely unable to support my speculations, and they are speculations, I just heard of VORTAC in my briefing book of talking points but I have no idea how the cockpit of a 757 is laid out, how one inputs data (or where) it just sounded like a nice technical term to use to confuse issues.

If you actually want the truth, and aren't just trying to obfuscate, contact VORTAC/DME manufacturers of and put your 757/FMS questions to them directly.

Translated Output: I have no clue I was just blowing smoke out of my ass again.

As a general rule, you can presume that nearly all items in any aircraft system can be disconnected manually.

Translated Output: I have no clue am trying to avoid answering without appearing to be evading the legitimate question.

>End Run<

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   19:34:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#766. To: AGAviator (#759)

Einstein wannabe?

You can't even get a good insult out. Einstein was a plagiarist who sucked so bad at math that he had to have his wife do his calculations for his plagiarized papers.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-27   19:36:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#767. To: James Deffenbach, FormerLurker, Nostradumbass, buckeroo, abraxas, wudidiz, AGBloviator, all (#755)

AG has kicked both FL and O_I's ass.... time after time after time.

In your deluded mind. Tell me buck, how does one instruct the Flight Management Computer on a 757 to change course, and how would you enter a new destination for the autopilot to follow...

buck seems to have been imbibing a particularly strong batch of Sterno and KOOK AID. I tried to tell him before I had to send him to bozoland that that $#it was gonna kill him but he didn't pay any attention. And see what's happened? His mind, what little he had, is plumb gone.

Truly it has done some awful things to his once mediocre mind.

We must treat him kindly as people afflicted with Sterno© Addiction can be flammable.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   19:39:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#768. To: FormerLurker (#760)

For one, some of them are still alive ...

Good friends of yours, are they? Ever go out to the local titty bars with them as they read the Koran?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   19:39:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#769. To: AGAviator (#762)

So now you (1) Believe the NTSB, and (2) Concede that Hanjour knew enough to turn the autopilot off and on which demonstrates he likely could operate it if he needed to - which he didn't, (3) Have still not demonstrated that you can't simply navigate by punching the VORTAC/DME frequency into that instrument directly, regardless of what the FMS is doing.

A) I am stating that Hanjour MOST LIKELY DID NOT have the ability to change course on the flight management computer, thus he would be INCAPABLE of utilizing the autopilot on the aircraft. THUS IT WAS NOT HIM AT THE CONTROLS.

B) I am ALSO stating that you can't just change direction and plot course with the VORTAC signal, that only gives you a bearing, you need to know how to use navigational maps (which are COMPUTERIZED on a 757 by the way) in order to PLOT a bearing to your desination, and to do that you need to determine your current position.

THAT involves TWO VORTAC stations and the ability to triangulate the bearings and arrive at the current position on a map, taking into account air speed and drift.

It's doubtful Hanjour could have done ANY of that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:41:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#770. To: buckeroo (#768)

Ever go out to the local titty bars with them as they read the Koran?

You apparently would have if you had the chance, since they appear to be legends in your own mind.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:42:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#771. To: AGAviator (#765)

Shill to English Translator V 1.1 ©Truth Software, Cupertino CA

>Start Run<

You are wrong, and given your history of untrue accusations based purely on conjecture and unwillingness to face facts, I won't do research for you.

Translated Output: I have no clue and am completely unable to support my speculations, and they are speculations, I just heard of VORTAC in my briefing book of talking points but I have no idea how the cockpit of a 757 is laid out, how one inputs data (or where) it just sounded like a nice technical term to use to confuse issues.

If you actually want the truth, and aren't just trying to obfuscate, contact VORTAC/DME manufacturers of and put your 757/FMS questions to them directly.

Translated Output: I have no clue I was just blowing smoke out of my ass again.

As a general rule, you can presume that nearly all items in any aircraft system can be disconnected manually.

Translated Output: I have no clue am trying to avoid answering without appearing to be evading the legitimate question.

>End Run<

Did you see O_I's amazing, mental trick of blowing fecal matter out his ass, again?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   19:42:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#772. To: FormerLurker (#770)

So you can't vouch for their whereabouts, 'eh? How about they snuffed themselves into oblivion.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   19:44:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#773. To: AGAviator (#764)

The same amount as was spent in equal and opposite reactions on the items doing the tearing.

So if an egg hits a brick wall, there will be as much energy transferred into the brick wall as that which splatters the egg apart, eh?

WRONG. The energy in a collision, once spent, cannot be RESPENT. In other words, there will NOT be much energy transferred into the wall, since it was spent smashing the egg.

It is NOT an elastic collision where an ideal mass transfers all of its kinetic energy into what it collides with, it is an INELASTIC collision where kinetic energy is transferred to other types of energy within the egg itself, such as that required to smash the egg shell and send the contents spraying all over the place.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:49:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#774. To: buckeroo (#772)

So you can't vouch for their whereabouts, 'eh?

The news reports indicate where they are living. You want to go visit them?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:50:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#775. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, IRTorqued, RickyJ (#771)

blowing fecal matter out his ass

Looks like buck is engaging in his scatological fantasies again...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   19:52:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#776. To: FormerLurker (#774)

The news reports indicate where they are living.

Aren't you one to NOT believe in the MSM?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   19:59:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#777. To: FormerLurker, Buckmonster Fullofit, buckeroo, James Deffenbach wudidiz, IRTorqued, RickyJ, all (#775)

blowing fecal matter out his ass

Looks like buck is engaging in his scatological fantasies again...

It would not surprise me if he sculpts with it.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   20:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#778. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#775)

The AMAZING O_Ineeinee, chronic pusher of pure, unadulterated BS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   20:02:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#779. To: buckeroo (#776)

Aren't you one to NOT believe in the MSM?

So where did you get any information concerning 9/11 that WASN'T originally based upon MSM live coverage or after the fact news reports?

Did you call Dick Cheney and ask him what happened?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   20:03:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#780. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, wudidiz, IRTorqued, James Deffenbach, all (#778)

unadulterated BS.

There you go fantasizing about feces again.

I take it you want the pure thing.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   20:04:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#781. To: FormerLurker (#779)

So where did you get any information concerning 9/11 that WASN'T originally based upon MSM live coverage or after the fact news reports?

According to you and the AMAZING O_Ieeni ... I am an official member of the PSYOPS, remember?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   20:08:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#782. To: Original_Intent (#780)

I take it you want the pure thing.

Actually no. But, it is more than obvious that you blow it out every pore of your body.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   20:09:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#783. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, all (#781)

So where did you get any information concerning 9/11 that WASN'T originally based upon MSM live coverage or after the fact news reports?

According to you and the AMAZING O_Ieeni ... I am an official member of the PSYOPS, remember?

Most likely a consumer.

However:

If it walks like a Duck

It quacks like a Duck

I call it - a Duck.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   20:12:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#784. To: FormerLurker (#741)

I wonder how long it'll take AGAviator to find some "explanation"...

Wouldn't surprise me if he already had a number of links and a prepared essay in response available immediately.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   20:13:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#785. To: AGAviator, All (#784)

Why do the pages of the book (1:25) not show any sign of smoke damage?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   20:23:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#786. To: Original_Intent (#783)

What ever you say, chief mental-masturbator, aka, the AMAZING O_Ieeni.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-27   20:34:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#787. To: wudidiz (#785) (Edited)

Why do the pages of the book (1:25) not show any sign of smoke damage?

The bombs didn't create much of a fire for there to be smoke damage. No video of a plane hitting the Pentagon = no plane hit the Pentagon.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-27   20:37:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#788. To: RickyJ (#787)

No video of a plane hitting the Pentagon = no plane hit the Pentagon.

Just saying that a plane hit it doesn't really seem to be very convincing, does it?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   20:41:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#789. To: James Deffenbach, buckeroo, AGAviator, FormerLurker, Original_Intent (#604) (Edited)

Great post. And many of us, not just O_I and FormerLurker, doubted the legitimacy of Hanjour/Hanjoor's "license." All the instructors who have made public statements said he COULD NOT FLY. So that must mean that someone, somewhere sold him a ticket.

Thank you, James. I don't know what "G-man" A and "G-man" b are so annoyed about so often. As has been aknowledge several times, buckeroo did manage to establish that there are Hanjour/Hanjoor certification documents, not just verbal claims about them. Why he was certified/licensed when the evidence indicates that he wasn't qualified is an entirely different issue and far from simply a .guv faith-based one. The fact that the paper-trail exists surely isn't unquestionable proof in and of itself that it's valid.

Why would you two OCT/Official Conspiracy Theory guys take it so personally if you didn't have a hand in the shenanigans to sell or give him a ticket that he shouldn't have had? You can be fairly certain that papers for show animals are inspected and rejected with more stringent standards than you act like we should apply to an alleged hijacker and all those who apparently bent and broke the rules for him. As for impossible standards set for your side's alleged witnesses, are any of them available for cross-examination? They definitely ain't all upstanding and trusty sorts by my estimation. No doubt you'd agree with me that everyone who claims to be a well-intentioned and sincere Truther isn't, so you should just expect that a number of your speakers and evidence exhibits and such are not going to pass muster either. This is, afterall, an Information War that has evidently been PsyOpped/led astray to some extent on both sides. If we could agree on that much as a core Truth, I think there'd be less hostility flying around or should be somewhat less of that, anyway. Then we could make some headway on why that's been done.

Now, A & b, who honestly sounds more believable to you in this comparative example? Mr. Anonymous "Psychic Seer" of the Official Fizzycs Spinorama or the next witness who is named and seems much more credible, imo:

Who is this man? 9-11 official story started minutes after.

9/11 Witness: Jennifer Oberstein - No Plane

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-27   20:42:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#790. To: Original_Intent (#783)

... I am an official member of the PSYOPS, remember?

Most likely a consumer.

However:

If it walks like a Duck

It quacks like a Duck

I call it - a Duck.

"duckeroo"

lol


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   20:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#791. To: All (#790)

.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   20:48:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#792. To: Original_Intent, abraxas (#718)

You're dissembling again Harcourt Fenton Mudd

LOL, ok I admit it, I'm a star trek fan.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-27   20:52:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#793. To: OInk, buckeroo (#765) (Edited)

Shill to English Translator V 1.1 ©Truth Software, Cupertino CA

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'

Contact VORTAC/DME manufacturers of and put your 757/FMS questions to them directly.

As a general rule, you can presume that nearly all items in any aircraft system can be disconnected manually.

Have no clue and am completely unable to support my speculations.

I already told the goofus to contact the manufacturer to do his own research. That is where he can find his proof or disproof. I already know the answer.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.)

In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

So which of USG, press,or witness 911 statements are acceptable to you, Half Tw00fer?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   20:56:30 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#794. To: OInk, buckeroo, turtle (#777) (Edited)

blowing fecal matter out his ass

Looks like buck is engaging in his scatological fantasies again...

It would not surprise me if he sculpts with it.

Original_Indent 2010-07-27 20:02:03,

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   20:59:13 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#795. To: FormerLurker (#673)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-27   21:00:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#796. To: GreyLmist (#789)

All the instructors who have made public statements said he COULD NOT FLY. So that must mean that someone, somewhere sold him a ticket.

No, it means that after 1999, he lost interest in being a regular pilot because he was not able to get a regular job with Saudi Airlines, and only was interested in suicide piloting from his increasing involvement with jihadi movements.

So he allowed his non-suicide hijacker skills to get neglected because he no longer cared about aircraft and passenger safety.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   21:03:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#797. To: farmfriend (#792)

You're dissembling again Harcourt Fenton Mudd

LOL, ok I admit it, I'm a star trek fan.

If I recall correctly the original episode where Harry appeared was "The Trouble With Tribbles" which I believe was written by a real Science Fiction writer by the name of James Blish.

I am a Star Trek fan but fall short of being a "Trekkie".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   21:04:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#798. To: wudidiz, 9-11 (#720)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-27   21:05:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#799. To: wudidiz, *9-11* (#720)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-27   21:06:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#800. To: Eric Stratton (#798)

Oh look...


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   21:06:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#801. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, wudidiz, all (#796)

All the instructors who have made public statements said he COULD NOT FLY. So that must mean that someone, somewhere sold him a ticket.

No, it means that after 1999, he lost interest in being a regular pilot because he was not able to get a regular job with Saudi Airlines, and only was interested in suicide piloting from his increasing involvement with jihadi movements.

So he allowed his non-suicide hijacker skills to get neglected because he no longer cared about aircraft and passenger safety.

LOL!

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wall.

Pathetic.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   21:06:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#802. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#784)

Wouldn't surprise me if he already had a number of links and a prepared essay in response available immediately.

After 8 plus years, where are yours?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   21:07:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#803. To: Original_Intent (#797)

I am a Star Trek fan but fall short of being a "Trekkie".

Oh Amen to that!


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-27   21:07:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#804. To: AGAviator, all (#794)

Nah, I'm just funnin' the boy.

It's a joke son.

I say, I say it's a joke boy.

Whar's yer senseahumor boy?

(Boy's wound just a little bit too tight.)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   21:10:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#805. To: AGAviator (#796)

So he allowed his non-suicide hijacker skills to get neglected because he no longer cared about aircraft and passenger safety.

He never COULD fly safely, as I already posted to you in the way of news reports and quotes from his flight instructors.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   21:21:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#806. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#793) (Edited)

I already told the goofus to contact the manufacturer to do his own research. That is where he can find his proof or disproof. I already know the answer.

I already know that you need to do more than punch 4 numbers into the frequency control of the VORTAC receiver, you need to know what to DO with the information it returns. It doesn't fly or navigate the plane for you, unlike the 757's flight management system which you "forgot" existed on board commericial airliners, but certainly DOESN'T exist on Cessna 172's.

Additionally, you neglected the fact that even IF Hanjour knew how to triangulate his position and plot a course, he didn't, since the autopilot was engaged the entire time, except for a course correction midway between Ohio and Washington, where he (or the ACTUAL pilot) realized he was slightly off course somehow, and corrected the problem, then reengaged auto pilot till near Washington DC.

To change the course with autopilot engaged, or for the autopilot to fly the plane to the desired destination, the correct sequence of commands needed to be issued to the flight management computer, which Hanjour had never seen before in his life.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   21:29:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#807. To: AGAviator (#796)

James Deffenbach, quoted in my post: All the instructors who have made public statements said he COULD NOT FLY. So that must mean that someone, somewhere sold him a ticket.

AGAviator: No, it means that after 1999, he lost interest in being a regular pilot because he was not able to get a regular job with Saudi Airlines, and only was interested in suicide piloting from his increasing involvement with jihadi movements.

So he allowed his non-suicide hijacker skills to get neglected because he no longer cared about aircraft and passenger safety

The statement you quoted was made by James but I do agree with it. Tell me, "Mr. Aviator", on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being most difficult, how hard would it be for an incompetent and suicidal hijacker to control a huge plane he had about zero experience maneuvering so, mere inches above the ground as if it was a rocket-propelled hovercraft, through dense air and high g-forces at such a speed, when he could have nosedived into the roof quicker, easier and most likely with a much higher casualty count if the objective and motivation was to be a martyr and not an amatuer stunt pilot?

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-27   21:31:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#808. To: AGAviator (#802)

Wouldn't surprise me if he already had a number of links and a prepared essay in response available immediately.

After 8 plus years, where are yours?

Where are my what?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   21:41:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#809. To: Original_Intent (#765)

                       

Translated Output: I have no clue and am completely unable to support my speculations, and they are speculations, I just heard of VORTAC in my briefing book of talking points but I have no idea how the cockpit of a 757 is laid out, how one inputs data (or where) it just sounded like a nice technical term to use to confuse issues.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   21:50:08 ET  (13 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#810. To: Original_Intent (#767)

Truly it has done some awful things to his once mediocre mind.

We must treat him kindly as people afflicted with Sterno© Addiction can be flammable.

LOL!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   21:53:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#811. To: FormerLurker (#775)

Looks like buck is engaging in his scatological fantasies again...

I guess that is what he does his finger painting with there in The Home.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   21:56:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#812. To: GreyLmist (#789)

Thank you, James.

You're welcome and I thank you. Another excellent post.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:00:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#813. To: James Deffenbach (#811)

Looks like buck is engaging in his scatological fantasies again...

I guess that is what he does his finger painting with there in The Home.

I hope it is a Happy Home. ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:01:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#814. To: James Deffenbach (#809)

What's the story with the groundhog?


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:02:18 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#815. To: James Deffenbach (#810)

Truly it has done some awful things to his once mediocre mind.

We must treat him kindly as people afflicted with Sterno© Addiction can be flammable.

LOL!

I was afraid that just might burn him up.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:02:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#816. To: James Deffenbach (#809)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:04:27 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#817. To: Original_Intent, James Deffenbach (#815)

I was afraid that just might burn him up.

Sterno addicts should stay away from 9/11 flame-athons.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:04:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#818. To: Original_Intent (#801)

LOL!

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wall.

Pathetic.

LOL, aggravator can read the mind of Hanjour/Hanjoor now. This is getting better all the time! I wonder what his next amazing trick will be.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:05:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#819. To: James Deffenbach (#818)

LOL!

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wall.

Pathetic.

LOL, aggravator can read the mind of Hanjour/Hanjoor now. This is getting better all the time! I wonder what his next amazing trick will be.

I think he was going channel Mohammed Atta.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:07:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#820. To: wudidiz (#817)

I was afraid that just might burn him up.

Sterno addicts should stay away from 9/11 flame-athons.

Or as Chrissie Hynde said: "Bad Boys get spanked..."

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:10:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#821. To: Original_Intent (#813)

I hope it is a Happy Home. ;-)

Oh, to be sure, life is beautiful all around where buckster and the aggravator reside. The staff even allows them to play on the computers.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:11:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#822. To: wudidiz (#814)

What's the story with the groundhog?

I am not sure but think he's funny. I like him.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:12:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#823. To: Original_Intent (#819)

I think he was going channel Mohammed Atta.

Maybe he will contact Osama bin Forgotten.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:14:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#824. To: GreyLmist (#789) (Edited)

This just goes to show that eyewitnesses are not always right on what they hear or what they see. There was a video taped by a documentary film group that happened to be filming at the time the first plane hit the North Tower and captured it's impact with the North Tower.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-27   22:17:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#825. To: James Deffenbach (#822)

I am not sure but think he's funny. I like him.

He has a very serious expression.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:21:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#826. To: James Deffenbach (#822)

What's the longest you figure you ever watched him for?

lol


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:42:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#827. To: All (#826)

This thread's not over.

; )


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:43:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#828. To: James Deffenbach (#821)

I hope it is a Happy Home. ;-)

Oh, to be sure, life is beautiful all around where buckster and the aggravator reside. The staff even allows them to play on the computers.

Does it have "flowers and trees and pretty birds"?

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:44:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#829. To: wudidiz (#826)

What's the longest you figure you ever watched him for?

Just to make sure he isn't going anywhere you mean? Oh, I don't know, maybe ten minutes or ten seconds. I get those confused. ahaha.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:44:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#830. To: Original_Intent (#828)

Yes, and basket weavers.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-27   22:46:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#831. To: James Deffenbach (#830)

Setting in quiet contemplation? ;-)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-27   22:51:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#832. To: James Deffenbach (#829)

It's more fun than watching building seven drop over and over.


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-27   22:56:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#833. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#769)

B) I am ALSO stating that you can't just change direction and plot course with the VORTAC signal, that only gives you a bearing, you need to know how to use navigational maps (which are COMPUTERIZED on a 757 by the way) in order to PLOT a bearing to your desination, and to do that you need to determine your current position.

Wrong.

(1) You can buy a current chart, which you are required to have, which shows all the VORTACs, their locations and frequencies.

(2) The Course Indicator shows the radial to the VORTAC.

(3) The DME on the VORTAC, combined with the radial, shows EXACLY where you are without the need for any other bearing.

(4) Since you're quoting a source which states the FMS was turned off while a course change was made, then turned on again, it's clear that the person using the FMS knew how to use it, knew how to make changes to it, and knew when and why any changes would be needed. So the claim that Hanjour couldn't use the FMS is by itself disproven.

(5) The fact that it is possible Hanjour did use the FMS does not alter the fact that he did not need to use the FMS to navigate. Basic trigonometry says if you have both a radial and a distance, you can precisely identify location. You only need a 2nd radial if the first radial does not have distance.

(6) "It is doubtful" is speculation not fact.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   23:07:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#834. To: OInk. buckeroo (#801)

And you know this HOW?

You are now reduced to just making stuff up and throwing it against the wa

Perfect Soldiers Hijackers they Were

This will be difficult for you to process, but there actually are investigative journalists and authors who are able to gather evidence, and research and write accurately ahout all kinds of different subjects.

Of course, this poses a prohlem for you, because your pronouncements are no longer a claim worthy of any serious consideration.

So naturally, you go on to Disinformation Rule #19 - your favorite - and deny everything that anybody else researches and publishes.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   23:17:06 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#835. To: GreyLmist (#807)

Tell me, "Mr. Aviator", on a scale of 1-10 with 10 being most difficult, how hard would it be for an incompetent and suicidal hijacker to control a huge plane he had about zero experience maneuvering so, mere inches above the ground as if it was a rocket-propelled hovercraft, through dense air and high g-forces at such a speed, when he could have nosedived into the roof quicker, easier and most likely with a much higher casualty count if the objective and motivation was to be a martyr and not an amatuer stunt pilot?

Ground effect combined with 400+ mph velocity makes a crash into the earth difficult unless the plane is deliberately pointed towards the ground.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-27   23:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#836. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#834)

This will be difficult for you to process, but there actually are investigative journalists and authors who are able to gather evidence, and research and write accurately ahout all kinds of different subjects.

Yes, and you ignore that research and evidence, or spin it into the opposite of what it conveys.

So how did Hanjour figure out how to work the Boeing 757 flight management computer?

Why are there no external fires on the outside of the Pentagon wall immediately after impact?

Why are those men in suits getting off the bus carrying huge full bags with them, walking towards the Pentagon, which according to initial reports had NO airplane debris indicating an airliner just flew into it?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   23:37:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#837. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#835) (Edited)

Ground effect combined with 400+ mph velocity makes a crash into the earth difficult unless the plane is deliberately pointed towards the ground.

Ground effect occurs when flying less than 60 feet at 400+ mph, and that is what the aircraft did for at least a mile on its way to the Pentagon, dipping down to 20 feet the last split second in order to hit a 71 foot tall target.

Diving into it from a higher altitude would NOT have resulted in any sort of "extra lift" due to ground effect, since the air pressure under the wings would not be enough to cause it to slow down or climb at such a steep angle, and just milliseconds from impact.

Not only that, but the horizontal speed would have been very low, perhaps somewhere around 50 mph, thus between the angle of attack and the very low ground speed, there would be NO ground effect.

Dipping down to 20 feet from 60 feet in the last few milliseconds WOULD HAVE BEEN CLOSE TO IMPOSSIBLE HOWEVER, as the air pressure under the wings would have risen significantly.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-27   23:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#838. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#837)

Ground effect occurs when flying less than 60 feet at 400+ mph, and that is what the aircraft did for at least a mile on it's way to the Pentagon, dipping down to 20 feet the last split second in order to hit a 71 foot tall target

You can't even put a conventional low wing aircraft down, when flying over 100 mph close to a runway. You try it and you'll bounce up maybe 50 feet.

Jets have thrust reversers so once they hit the ground with their wheels, with their flaps down and their power back, they run the engines backwards, so they don't go off a two mile long runway.

People pushing these 911 theories really have so little knowledge of aircraft operations it's ridiculous.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   0:02:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#839. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#806)

already know that you need to do more than punch 4 numbers into the frequency control of the VORTAC receiver, you need to know what to DO with the information it returns. It doesn't fly or navigate the plane for

You line up the nose of the airplane so the Course Deviation display shows the plane going right down the middle of the radial going to/coming from the VORTAC. As an added bonus you get the distance in nautical miles to the VORTAC transmitter. That's it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   0:16:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#840. To: AGAviator (#838)

You can't even put a conventional low wing aircraft down, when flying over 100 mph close to a runway. You try it and you'll bounce up maybe 50 feet.

So it's possible he thought he could bounce over the Pentagon and was gambling on whether or not the plane would crash? That purty much wipes out the official slant about him being dead set on a martyrdom mission.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   0:47:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#841. To: AGAviator (#838)

You can't even put a conventional low wing aircraft down, when flying over 100 mph close to a runway. You try it and you'll bounce up maybe 50 feet.

So you admit that there is no possible way a 757 could fly 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph, correct?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   1:17:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#842. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#841)

So you admit that there is no possible way a 757 could fly 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph, correct

On the contrary. I'm saying it's just about impossible to make a fast flying and aerodynamically clean 757 hit the ground. Because even when there is an attempted landing with gear down, flaps deployed, and power cut back the plane still wants to fly and fly and fly.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   1:20:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#843. To: buckeroo, AGAviator, FormerLurker, All (#650)

AGAviator, not one of the Pilots for 9/11 Truth @ #644: Huh? Aren't you Half Tw00fers claiming the 757 didn't hit the lamps?

buckeroo @ #650: Oh Boy... here comes some more subterfuge!

FormerLurker @ #651: You Full Liars are claiming that a 757 did in fact do that, yet witnesses place the 757 NORTH of that approach, and two Pentagon police officers state those poles WEREN'T knocked down immediately after the impact. The news reports assume that the government wasn't lying about the light poles.

Excerpts from PILOTS FOR 9/11 TRUTH - OUTLINING ANOMOLIES FOUND IN NTSB DATA:

The NTSB Flight Path Animation approach path and altitude does not support official events...All Altitude data shows the aircraft at least 300 feet too high to have struck the light poles.

Pilot for 911 truth phone call - light poles, etc.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   1:28:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#844. To: AGAviator (#839) (Edited)

You line up the nose of the airplane so the Course Deviation display shows the plane going right down the middle of the radial going to/coming from the VORTAC. As an added bonus you get the distance in nautical miles to the VORTAC transmitter. That's it.

Wrong. You need to know what HEADING you wish to follow, based upon the plotted course after calculating the current position. The VORTAC signal will simply tell you your current bearing, (heading and distance from the VORTAC transmitter), you need to determine your current position by using TWO VORTAC signals, and utilizing a calculator, slide rule, or computer, triangulate the current postion using a bit of trig.

THEN you can look at the navigational chart, where on a 757 it would be computerized (ie. within the flight management computer, where the VORTAC aides would ALSO be available), plot a course between the current position and destination (ie. determine the heading in relation to magnetic north), then turn the plane onto that heading.

Thing is, Hanjour didn't need to do ANY of that since he would had to have used the Flight Management Computer, since autopilot is what navigated the aircraft from Ohio to Washington DC, and IT depends on FMS, and is in fact an integral component of that flight system.

And of course, using a Boeing 757 Flight Management Computer is not something you can learn by flying a Cessna 172, or even playing with a 737 flight simulator, since a 757 uses a different Flight Management System than the 737.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   1:29:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#845. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, GreyLmist, James Deffenbach, wudidiz, ALL (#842)

On the contrary. I'm saying it's just about impossible to make a fast flying and aerodynamically clean 757 hit the ground. Because even when there is an attempted landing with gear down, flaps deployed, and power cut back the plane still wants to fly and fly and fly.

Wow, do you really expect people to believe that jets have never crashed into the ground? What about Flight 93, what about all the other instances of jets crashing at high speed?

YET, you expect people to believe that an incompetent dupe can fly a 757 at over 400 mph at treetop level and descend to 20 feet off the Pentagon lawn while at 530 mph.

Only a total and complete retard would buy what you're selling, especially the part where you basically say "jets can't crash".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   1:37:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#846. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#844)

Wrong. You need to know what HEADING you wish to follow,

Nope.

The only heading you need to follow is the one that puts the nose of your aircraft right down the middle of the radial to/from the VORTAC to/from your current location.

No course deviation to the left, or to the right. Zero deviation, right down the middle of the CDI, will put you on a direct course.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   1:41:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#847. To: FormerLurker (#845)

Only a total and complete retard would buy what you're selling, especially the part where you basically say "jets can't crash"

That's a misinterpretation based on your inability to know this subject yourself combined with your assumption that you do.

Jets crash when you point them to crash, and you overcome factors trying to keep them going like ground effect and lift generated during a high speed and aerodynamically clean nape of the earth flight path.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   1:46:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#848. To: AGAviator (#846) (Edited)

The only heading you need to follow is the one that puts the nose of your aircraft right down the middle of the radial to/from the VORTAC to/from your current location.

Do you even know what a VORTAC transmitter is? It's not a magical "we'll do it for you, we know it all" instrument, it's a transmitter which broadcasts a signal which can be decoded by a VORTAC receiver onboard an aircraft, giving the aircraft's bearing in relation to the VORTAC transmitter.

It doesn't guess where the pilot wants to go and help steer the plane for him.

You are REALLY desperate here aren't you...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   1:46:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#849. To: AGAviator (#847)

Jets crash when you point them to crash, and you overcome factors trying to keep them going like ground effect and lift generated during a high speed and aerodynamically clean nape of the earth flight path.

Yes, you point them down and they crash, yet you just tried to create your own laws of aerodynamics and state that a jet which is pointed down and diving at high speed will magically climb once it gets close to the ground and avoid impact.

That is pure BS, and you know it.

In a powered dive, there IS no ground effect involved due to slow relative ground speed, and high angle of attack.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   1:50:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#850. To: wudidiz, abraxas, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, buckeroo, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, farmfriend (#634) (Edited)

All that and still no other pentagon videos released.

The govt intercepts about 100 flights per year for various reasons and without a miss.

THAT DAY, NORAD and the entire system was off their game.

In North America hijacked planes just don't turn off transponders, leave their flight paths and leisurely jet to their destinations unless those in power want them to arrive. And if that was the case it may not have been necessary for any schmucks to actually fly the planes.

The evidence of govt involvement is overwhelming, but some cannot accept it because it requires them to see the shadow govt and their stooges for the truly diabolical creatures that they are.

It's one of our worst kept secrets that at command level in DC they will kill any Munchkin or even their own (Vince Foster, Paul Wellstone, William Colby) that threatens to side with the "enemy", the dumbshit people who actually believe in moral absolutes, i.e. Jesus, ethics, patriotism, loyalty, the constitution, etc.,.

You must understand that many people would rather send you to prison than to accept the unpleasant truth about the govt they serve(d) and themselves.

It's no diff than when a stacked jury is asked to choose between the truth about the income tax while admitting they've been played as fools for years, or, they can consider themselves "highly intelligent, patriotic and law abiding" by convicting the annual publicity target selected to "stimulate voluntary compliance".

State worship is the religion of former KGB snitches and the defenders of the govt's ever changing 9/11 fairie tale and as a religion it should not be underestimated. Hell, I'd bet that most of the assassins in The Phoenix Program still believe in what they did. They certainly aren't likely to grow consciences and face the fact that they are no different than any other murdering cutthroats in history. ("Dear Pentagon, Please stop sending my pension cheacks as I can no longer in good conscience accept them..." Riiiiiight. That'll be the day)

Some assassins no doubt believed that their uniforms and military protocol ennobled their evil, just as some feel that Sicilian tradition, or wars fought under the banners of gang or ethnic loyalties (Bloods vs. Crips) are enough to allow them to remain "good Christians" or at the very least "noble warriors". (The Vatican Bank's laundering of mafia funds certainly did nothing to undermine this belief)

If you compare Major General Smedley Darlington Butler (WAR IS A RACKET) to Lieutenant General Lewis Burwell "Chesty" Puller it's easy to see that one flag officer was a man of good conscience who refused to use the flag as a blindfold while the other at the age of 67 asked to be reinstated for Vietnam, presumably ignoring the fact that our troops were dying in an undeclared "police action war" while Rockefeller's oil tankers never stopped moving in and out of "enemy harbors". (No declaration of war=no Geneva Convention protection. What 'Nam-era flag officer demanded this protection for his troops? Why, none as a matter of fact. BIG OIL and the MIC had needs after all....)

A true patriot (like Butler) would criticize wars for crooked banker lackey-politicians. (like Kissinger) But, a state worshiper who apparently believed that all of his medals were awarded for honor (like Puller) was just too stupid to see that his self deception resulted in service to a truly diabolical god. His stupidity was reinforced by the fact that the truth was considered too rude to mention in polite company, i.e. a room filled with newspaper editors, politicians, diplomats, corporate profiteers and career climbing military officers.

Puller's son was horribly maimed in 'Nam and after years as a govt lawyer, an unsuccessful campaign for Congress and writing the book FORTUNATE SON he eventually committed suicide.

I'm not going to wish that it was his father who suffered the loss of both legs and parts of his hands in a mine explosion. But, I have to wonder if "Chesty" would have proudly borne his son's life changing injuries. He certainly didn't seem to believe that the men he commanded who were killed and injured in service to Big Oil or UNITED FRUIT CO. were wasted.

The son didn't have the benefit of the father's flag blindness or "esprit de corpse", and it eventually took its toll.

I remember an old B&W film about the first doctor who tried to explain how microscopic germs caused post-op infections and why surgeons should adopt strict hygiene measures. Needless to say the only way he could sell it was to get the older doctors to admit that in their ignorance they had killed countless numbers of their patients. (They don't make films like that anymore)

Obviously the senior establishment tried to suppress and ignore the evidence in order to avoid the truth about themselves.

Human nature has not changed. And the people who can ignore the disappearance of every security cam video that could tell the truth, the re-writing of the laws of physics and the mountain of evidence of govt involvement (not to mention that we're supposed to believe that a jumbo jet's wings, engines and landing gear folded up like a bird's and slid through a hole in the reinforced wall of the Pentagram) cannot (actually, will not) tell us why they refuse to acknowledge the obvious. But, the only place they can sell their deux deux is on the net as anonymous people. They cannot sell it in the meat world where their obvious conflicts of interest or reasons for their shameful loyalty to an evil corrupt system would be readily apparent to all who know and see them.

In that respect they're like NAMBLA members or child molesters who can only advocate from a safe distance that which they dare not say when we can get our hands around their necks.

Are we really supposed to take these people seriously?

These shills and cowards are getting entirely too much attention for writing things they wouldn't dare utter from a public platform.

Let's ignore them. Or at the very most give them no more of our time than we'd spend responding to anonymous sickos who like little boys' asses.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-28   1:54:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#851. To: RickyJ (#824)

This just goes to show that eyewitnesses are not always right on what they hear or what they see. There was a video taped by a documentary film group that happened to be filming at the time the first plane hit the North Tower and captured it's impact with the North Tower.

The Naudet Brothers? I suspect they were hired a bit later to fake footage for alleged Flight 11 as "proof". One of my hypotheticals is that alleged Flight 93 (occult meaning of that number being The Law) was cast to be destroyed first but that scenario was maybe hijacked by intel, et al. Some supporting evidence for that possibility here:

Missing 9/11 Planes

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   2:01:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#852. To: HOUNDDAWG (#850)

Very well said Houndawg.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   2:02:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#853. To: FormerLurker (#852)

Thank you.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-28   2:09:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#854. To: HOUNDDAWG (#850)

The govt intercepts about 100 flights per year for various reasons and without a miss.

THAT DAY, NORAD and the entire system was off their game.

In North America hijacked planes just don't turn off transponders, leave their flight paths and leisurely jet to their destinations unless those in power want them to arrive.

And there just is no way around that.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-28   2:14:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#855. To: FormerLurker (#741)

I wonder how long it'll take AGAviator to find some "explanation"...

And we are still waiting. He hasn't touched it, he got back off into minutiae again. I think he prefers cherry picking.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:14:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#856. To: HOUNDDAWG, all (#850)

Well said good sir. Well said.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:23:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#857. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz, AGAviator, ALL (#855)

And we are still waiting. He hasn't touched it, he got back off into minutiae again. I think he prefers cherry picking

So I wonder what those guys WERE up to, the ones which get off the bus carrying large bags full of SOMETHING, starting right about 0:43 into the video?

What was in those bags I wonder....


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   2:25:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#858. To: Original_Intent, All (#857)

Hey, aren't those light poles at the beginning of the video supposed to have been downed?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   2:27:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#859. To: GreyLmist (#851)

One of my hypotheticals is that alleged Flight 93 (occult meaning of that number being The Law) was cast to be destroyed first but that scenario was maybe hijacked by intel, et al.

I have wondered, and speculated, if there was not someone on board 93 who understood Avionics well enough to find and disconnect the remote control system. Someone aware of the system and was able to deduce and trace where the control lines would be and find "the box" and return control of the aircraft to the pilot or it malfunctioned with the same effect. The plane could not be allowed to survive as the moment it landed and the story told the jig would be up. So, they shot it down to protect the guilty. Then, like GI Jane in Iraq, they concoct a cock and bull story about a technically impossible cell call and the heroism of the valiant passengers overcoming the scary scary Terrists' only to fall short.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:31:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#860. To: FormerLurker (#858)

I do believe you are right. I'd have to look at one of the approach diagrams, but I think you may have hit on something.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:32:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#861. To: FormerLurker (#857)

What was in those bags I wonder....

It's a good question and open to speculation, but there is nothing definite to go on. They could be Hazmat suits or they could be carrying in "debris".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:35:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#862. To: Original_Intent, GreyLmist (#859)

I have wondered, and speculated, if there was not someone on board 93 who understood Avionics well enough to find and disconnect the remote control system. Someone aware of the system and was able to deduce and trace where the control lines would be and find "the box" and return control of the aircraft to the pilot or it malfunctioned with the same effect.

I think the crew and passengers onboard the "hijacked aircraft" were either subdued or killed with some form of chemical agent introduced into the plane's ventilation system, THEN the remote control took over.

Perhaps on Flight 93 the gas failed to release, thus when the remote control took over, the crew took steps to counteract it, leading to the necessity of them being shot down.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   2:39:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#863. To: Original_Intent (#861)

They could be Hazmat suits or they could be carrying in "debris".

Haven't seen any pictures of people wearing hazmat suits at the Pentagon "crash site", although I HAVE seen images of guys with suits "picking up debris"...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   2:41:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#864. To: FormerLurker, GreyLmist (#862)

I have wondered, and speculated, if there was not someone on board 93 who understood Avionics well enough to find and disconnect the remote control system. Someone aware of the system and was able to deduce and trace where the control lines would be and find "the box" and return control of the aircraft to the pilot or it malfunctioned with the same effect.

I think the crew and passengers onboard the "hijacked aircraft" were either subdued or killed with some form of chemical agent introduced into the plane's ventilation system, THEN the remote control took over.

Perhaps on Flight 93 the gas failed to release, thus when the remote control took over, the crew took steps to counteract it, leading to the necessity of them being shot down.

Definitely 93 is a puzzler. Something went wrong from the point of view of the conspirators. What it was is the puzzler.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:45:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#865. To: FormerLurker (#863)

They could be Hazmat suits or they could be carrying in "debris".

Haven't seen any pictures of people wearing hazmat suits at the Pentagon "crash site", although I HAVE seen images of guys with suits "picking up debris"...

Whatever was in the bags was fairly heavy - you can tell that by the way they are leaning to support the weight. However, other than it is suspicious there is insufficient data to draw a conclusion.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:48:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#866. To: Original_Intent (#864)

Definitely 93 is a puzzler. Something went wrong from the point of view of the conspirators. What it was is the puzzler.

I think we both agree that the crew somehow overcame whatever was done to the flight systems, and regained control of the aircraft. Due to that, they had to get shot down.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   2:48:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#867. To: Original_Intent (#865) (Edited)

Whatever was in the bags was fairly heavy - you can tell that by the way they are leaning to support the weight. However, other than it is suspicious there is insufficient data to draw a conclusion.

I'd like to see any sort of official investigation identify those individuals, and have them testify under oath what was in those bags, and whether or not any of those individuals were part of the photo shoot showing men in suits running around the Pentagon lawn picking up debis.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   2:50:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#868. To: HOUNDDAWG (#850) (Edited)

If everybody among the brass with honor walked away from the Military because government is being run by demigogue diabolicals instigating wars instead of being reined in by We the People like it's supposed to be, then all that would be left guiding our service members in harm's way would be demigogue diabolicals who couldn't care less about them.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   2:52:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#869. To: FormerLurker (#866)

Definitely 93 is a puzzler. Something went wrong from the point of view of the conspirators. What it was is the puzzler.

I think we both agree that the crew somehow overcame whatever was done to the flight systems, and regained control of the aircraft. Due to that, they had to get shot down.

Yes, however it came to be the crew was able to regain control of the plane and the last thing they wanted was live witnesses.

I hadn't thought of the gas angle, but the bastards are evil enough to just whack all the passengers with sarin or some such as that would put them "out of the way". Certainly the operation had been in the planning stages for at least 2 or 3 years so they would have had time to select their planes and rig them well in advance.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:53:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#870. To: FormerLurker (#867)

Whatever was in the bags was fairly heavy - you can tell that by the way they are leaning to support the weight. However, other than it is suspicious there is insufficient data to draw a conclusion.

I'd like to see any sort of official investigation identify those individuals, and have them testify under oath what was in those bags, and whether or not any of those individuals were part of the photo shoot showing men in suits running around the Pentagon lawn picking up debis.

Given the description on the clip you posted those are some nice chunks. Yes, there are a lot of things about 911 that need an honest and thorough investigation.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   2:59:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#871. To: Original_Intent, ALL (#865) (Edited)

Doesn't the guy with the balding head and white shirt left of center in the CNN video snapshot look similar to either suited individual in the Pentagon "debris pickup" photo?

The one in the first image is wearing a short sleeve shirt, where in the 2nd photo each person is wearing a long sleeved shirt. I'm sure they could fit a shirt in those bags, and the long sleeve shirts DO appear to be a bit wrinkled.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   3:09:10 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#872. To: Original_Intent, wudidiz (#870)

Given the description on the clip you posted those are some nice chunks.

I can't take credit for it, wudidiz posted it on this thread first, and I just looked at it and found a few things that were a bit out of place...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   3:11:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#873. To: FormerLurker (#871)

Doesn't the guy with the balding head and white shirt left of center in the CNN video snapshot look similar to the guy who is behind the other suited individual in the Pentagon "debris pickup" photo?

Similar but it looks to me like the one in the short sleeves is a bit broader with beefier arms.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   3:17:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#874. To: Original_Intent (#873)

Similar but it looks to me like the one in the short sleeves is a bit broader with beefier arms.

Just edited the post, I actually think the guy in front could be the same as in the 1st image, although they both look very similar in appearance.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   3:18:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#875. To: FormerLurker (#872)

Given the description on the clip you posted those are some nice chunks.

I can't take credit for it, wudidiz posted it on this thread first, and I just looked at it and found a few things that were a bit out of place...

Got it. If I wasn't getting so sleepy I'd dig up a diagram of the Flt. 77 approach and do some looking and comparing, but as it stands now I have a loaf of bread that just started beeping at me to come take it out of the oven and then I'm going to bed. So, another day. Take care and keep the shiny side up.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   3:20:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#876. To: HOUNDDAWG, abraxas, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, buckeroo, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, farmfriend, *Post Of The Day* (#850)


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-28   3:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#877. To: GreyLmist (#868)

If everybody among the brass with honor walked away from the military because government is being run by demagogue diabolicals instigating wars instead of being reined in by We the People like it's supposed to be, then all that would be left guiding our service members in harm's way would be demagogue diabolicals who couldn't care less about them.

That certainly seems logical.

I don't know that our troops benefit from officers who care, though. The decisions that put troops in harm's way are still made by people with the courage, character and patriotism of Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney. (or shadowy, IMF, BIG OIL or Israeli puppeteers who get what they want regardless of the field commanders' concerns, recommendations or wishes)

And, I can't think of any officers in my lifetime who had the courage that Butler had, and even he waited until after his retirement to go public.

So, "officers who care" but won't risk their careers, especially those who are West Point or Annapolis and legacies from proud military families don't seem to make much of a difference. Those who pride themselves on the courage to lead troops into battle without hesitation when their personal safety is at risk and there's no guarantee that any gains won't be returned by policy makers the next day simply aren't taught (or conditioned) to second guess asshole civilians who claim to "see the big picture".

In truth I can't fault any officer who refuses to fall on her/his sword in what would almost certainly be an exercise in futility, especially since dumb ass Americans' would probably fail to support him or especially HER in any meaningful way. ("WE AIN'T GONNA RISK OUR GUMMINT PENSIONS TO SUPPORT A SUSPECTED COWARD!"-I don't blame most seniors for not forgoing social security checks on principle. I don't know any seniors who are wealthy enough to do that, and Hell, I'd eat govt cheese on Chinese WALMART crackers {made with real gypsum! Strong bones and teeth!} to keep the buzzards off my back)

I don't expect to shame anyone into anything and I only used the example to amplify and juxtapose the state worship mentality then and now, here and there.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-28   3:39:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#878. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#849)

you just tried to create your own laws of aerodynamics and state that a jet which is pointed down and diving at high speed will magically climb once it gets close to the ground and avoid impact

Never said anything of the sort. Are you taking English tutoring from Hanjour's teachers?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   3:53:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#879. To: Original_Intent (#856)

Gracias amigo.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-28   3:54:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#880. To: HOUNDDAWG (#877)

I liked your example about the vintage doctor movie. I like to believe these legends about Puller are true: that he refused a winter coat until his men had one, that he gave his own coat to someone he saw who didn't have one. That might not sound much like honor or great benefit and care but in Korea during the winter, described as hell froze over, I consider that heroic. The Military aren't politicians. They need to focus on preparedness and surviving in battle and helping those around them to survive. Many have to maintain security clearances in order to do whatever good they can, however infested D.C. is with the monsterous. It's not their job to initiate a Civil War. It's ours to see that our system of government works as it should so that they aren't thrown like gladiators into arenas of war and survival by Ceasar-types and their minions.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   4:12:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#881. To: FormerLurker (#867)

the photo shoot showing men in suits running around the Pentagon lawn picking up debis.

During the USS Liberty discussions, I had to question why McGonagle didn't implement the chemical drill steps (which were practiced earlier that day) when something was dropped onto the ship from an Israeli helicopter after the attacks. Same sort of question comes to mind about why anyone was running around supposedly picking up debris soon after a terror strike. Why would they presume it was safe to do so without hazmat suits? It's not like they had to hurry up about clearing the lawn for appearances.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   4:33:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#882. To: GreyLmist (#880)

I like to believe these legends about Puller are true: that he refused a winter coat until his men had one, that he gave his own coat to someone he saw who didn't have one. That might not sound much like honor or great benefit and care but in Korea during the winter, described as hell froze over, I consider that heroic.

Indeed it was, Sir.

I met a black Korean War vet about 40 years ago when he was delivering meat to a restaurant, and he told me that because of Pork Chop Hill he could not put a pork chop in his mouth, 17 years after the battle.

Others related the stacking of bodies at The Chosin Reservoir because the ground was frozen harder than tank armor.

Based on your account of Chesty's sacrifice I'd certainly be willing to concede that he cared about his men as much as his intellect permitted. He seemed to love the glory of war and was not known to ever question the noble goals of the planners, and I've often heard marines say that a good marine would never do that.

That may be reason to swell with pride as a marine, and it certainly benefits those who may need men to "march into Hell without question or pause" but looking at "the big picture" (and in light of the survey a few years ago asking if marines would disarm Americans if ordered to do so) I can see where troops trained not to question the morality or the constitutionality of any orders could be laying the foundation for "something wicked this way comes...."

If Lt. William Calley (Us Army) had his way the victims of The Mai Lai Massacre would have been killed and buried with industrial efficiency and we'd be none the wiser.

I can only wonder if Calley asked himself, "What would Chesty do?"

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-28   5:30:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#883. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, All (#864) (Edited)

Definitely 93 is a puzzler. Something went wrong from the point of view of the conspirators. What it was is the puzzler.

Alleged Flight 11 wasn't reported as terror until alleged Flight 175 was reported as such. Could be it was hoped that the Fl. 175 scenario would be canceled if the Fl. 11 upstaging knocked alleged Fl. 93 from the NY scripting. I suspect that UA93 and UA175, which were actual planes scheduled to fly that day, might have been intended by the inside jobbers to be disappeared into the black market for dual use parts and $$$. UA93 was apparently spotted as intact afterwards rather than parted out or otherwise transferred to the underworld, perhaps because the inside jobbers knew it was being watched after their plans went awry. A youngish commander of the Ohio flight crew who were deployed to intercept UA93 was reported dead of a heart attack soon after. Because I am a No Planes researcher/investigator, I don't believe it was shot down or that there were "valiant passengers" aboard who decided to take it upon themselves to kill everybody before said hijackers did by not waiting for air support to arrive to possibly bring the plane and passengers down to a safe landing. The reported meandering and moseying flight paths do appear to indicate that there was a remote control struggle back and forth between hijackers and counter- hijackers but I think it may be just for show. I suspect there are people on the victims lists that were killed or vanished and their names inserted as a cover for their disappearance and the buildings, insurance scamming, and that sort of thing. Rather mundane Mafia-esq criminality but on a very large scale is what the NO Planes section of the Truth Movement was/is pursuing -- not really "kooky" stuff at all if looked at closely and that's what makes calls from some seeming Truther Top Guns to tar and feather us as "well poisoners" so bizarre and complicit sounding.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   5:43:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#884. To: HOUNDDAWG (#882)

Earlier in this posting session, I was trying to recall a conversation at LF where I called the alleged plane entry points at the WTC "glory holes", one of the definitions of which is:

The opening of the furnace used to keep the glass hot and workable. Several different sizes may be attached to a large furnace or you might have only one size on a small one that rotate open and closed depending on were the glass project is at. The cylinder is usually heated up to 2300 degrees.
www.glassblowers.org/HotGlassDictionary.htm

There are even definitions of that phrase for oil industry drilling and Navy definitions. Since the Pentagon was struck in the area of Naval Intelligence on 9/11, this definition seems appropriate here:

the quarters on a ship that are occupied by the stewards or stokers. Also, a small storeroom within the hull of a ship, usually at the stern; also called "lazaretto". Also, an enclosed space or locker for stowing loose gear. Also, a place for concealing valuables, a cache hideaway or treasure trove.
www.combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/DIVING.HTM

It can seem oftentimes like there are far too few to nearly no good stewards in the quarters of our ship of state in D.C, or the Military, or locally -- just stokers of war and profiteering, mayhem and devastation. If you can't always easily see the good stewards, that might not be quite as bad as it seems because maybe those bad stokers can't see them either.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-28   6:23:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#885. To: HOUNDDAWG (#850)

That was an excellent post, Dawg. "You done good" as they say.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-28   10:16:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#886. To: GreyLmist, FormerLurker, wudidiz, abraxas, christine, HOUNDDAWG, Eric Stratton, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Critter, all, *Escape From ElPee* (#883) (Edited)

Rather mundane Mafia-esq criminality but on a very large scale is what the NO Planes section of the Truth Movement was/is pursuing -- not really "kooky" stuff at all if looked at closely and that's what makes calls from some seeming Truther Top Guns to tar and feather us as "well poisoners" so bizarre and complicit sounding.

At this point there are few things I rule out categorically as the truth is often times stranger than fiction. As well, at this point in the game, so much in the way of false trails and disinformation has been planted that I tread very carefully in making assertions without having a firm footing, and there is not a lot of firm footing in the PsyOp that was called 911.

Much of 911, I believe, has to be looked at first as a Psychological Operation with Psychiatrists, likely CIA/Mossad/MI-6(think Tavistock Institute), planning the show. 911 was conducted for the effect it would create. It was an effect calculated to numb, terrorize, and herd people into accepting actions, presumptions, and incursions upon their liberty, along with unneeded wars, in ways that would have been strongly resisted without that Psychological/Psychiatric set-up. Remember the news coverage and the overly frequent replaying of the video of the planes crashing into the towers? That was done, I believe, to reinforce and increase the affect of the horror of the event. It was not just the Newsghouls in a feeding frenzy but had a specific purpose.

One of the things that has stuck with me is something John Coleman commented on in an interview with Jeff Rense back during the Kosovo bombing campaign mess (at least I believe it was Coleman - been a few years - but the datum stuck and fits as the M.O. for the 911 PsyOp) that a leaked Tavistock Manual contained a section on how to influence a large population group through the use of a massive shock to numb them and temporarily take away their normal resistance to incursions upon their freedoms and/or to resist activities they otherwise would. There was a large agenda predicated on 911 and its psychological affect to undercut resistance even to the point of having some individuals treat anyone as asking questions as a "traitor". Remember the bot refrain - "why do you hate Amurka'"? This was reinforced by other PsyOp outlets such as Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. The obvious, to me anyway, PsyOp reinforcement going on was one of the first things that convinced me with utter cold certainty that 911 was an inside job. I had doubts almost from day 1 because of NORAD's incompetent non-response. I was in the military and have been an aviation nut since I was barely out of diapers so I have a good feel for what NORAD is and the level of skill and knowledge it represents. There are many things NORAD is, but incompetent to this degree they are not. Therefore if one rejects the NORAD incompetence plea (note that no one at NORAD has ever been disciplined in any way however small) then that leads immediately to the logical inference that the 911 terror event had support from the highest levels of the Military Industrial/Intelligence Complex.

So, the first thing we can conclude from the events around 911 was that it was conducted with the blessing of the forces now in control of our government. The rest is details and the mechanics of how the operation was conducted. So, here we have arrived at the basic "why". Why was the 911 operation conducted? And who conducted it? The why becomes obvious in light of penumbra of surrounding events - the MIC needs wars to justify the existence of its machinery, status, and ability to make money. Historically international banking criminals such as the Rothschilds and Rockefellers profit heavily from wars, and as well there is an implied control agenda conforming to a long term plan to establish greater control over all the people's of the world. From there we could quickly digress into other supporting datums, such as "Agenda 21", but that would be a digression for the moment. So, we have established Motive i.e., political benefits - control. A secondary motive is financial as the inside players personally profit in money from all of the carnage they wreak (attractive if you are a psychotic conscienceless monster only interested in power and money). So, the circumstances and events continue to lead us back to a coterie of the most powerful interests in our current society - bankers, the military, military industrialists, and their political pawns - such as the former and current Imbeciles of The United States. So, now that we have the why motive and means we can then begin to expand the outline to fill in some of the broader headings.

Technical know-how is easily provided by the black-ops/Intelligence community which is also the abode for the soulless Psychiatrists and Psychologists calculating the affects of their operation upon the target group - the American Public. As well they provide the know how in air operations, the operation of air defense, and explosives technology. I have seen and heard it said that the technical level in the black ops world is, at any given moment, 20 to 40 years ahead of what is available in the unclassified world. I believe that to be a true statement based on the snippets, inferences, and leaks of what little does seep out through the cracks. As illustration of what I mean the late Mr. Northrop, founder of Northrop Aviation, is reported, perhaps apocryphally, to have confided tearfully to a small group at an aside to a dinner party "we have the stars but they won't let us go". Who the "they" is was never clarified, but it is instructive at giving a hint as to the level of technology available that is kept out of sight and public awareness. (As an aside I personally think that the technology to quickly, and relatively easily, explore the entire solar system has been available since at least the early 80's if not as far back as the late 60's. The English Hacker McKinnon whom the Pentagon is desperately trying to get extradited from England reported as one of his finds in the Pentagon's computer system the personnel transfer of officers between units of the extraterrestrial fleet is a tantalizing tidbit suggestive of a level of technology the general public is conditioned to think of as "science fiction".) Having taken the long way around to set it up yes I do believe the "no-plane" scenario to be technically possible, but I also do not believe it to be the case for a couple of factors.

1. Holograms don't make sounds. They are images only and as such to create convincing realism one has to have the sound effects.

1.a. A subset of this would be the need to create real physical damage that can be photographed and is convincing to a public unaware that it was a staged event.

So, using a holgraphic projection is simply more complex to implement than using real aircraft.

2. The mechanics of creating such an illusion would be technically more difficult to produce, and likely require more people "in the know", than just using real hijacked aircraft.

So, for reasons of practicality, not lack of technology, I think the no-plane scenario a no-go. I do believe it to be a planted disinformation meme and trail.

Returning to the main event. We could easily make a list of things that we can nail down with some certainty:

1. The 911 event as staged could not have gone off as it did without the support of people at the highest levels of power in our society and government. The operation was conducted in a manner and fashion well beyond the capabilities of a group of semi-literate Arabs (not to disparage them it is simply true) and orchestrated by cellphone out of cave in Afghanistan.

This is augumented very strongly by the fact that the Bush Administration, while making pious high profile propaganda statements about getting the perpetrators, fought the creation of an investigatory commission for over a year. When the commission was created it was hamstrung by limitations in scope and budget. The final report of said commission has now been repudiated by the Chair and Vice-Chair of the commission saying that the government lied even to them. (Why would government agencies and personnel lie to a government commission if not to obscure and keep incriminating information under cover?)

2. Without discussing their relative merits the technical skills and know-how exist to have implemented any of the major contending theories of how it was carried out.

3. As alluded to in "1" above the supposed hijackers were, based upon extensive research into their backgrounds, neither skillful to carry this off and neither were they "devout muslim fanatics™". By all records researched of their behavior they appear to have been black ops mercenaries who were sacrificed as pawns in a larger maneuver.

From there we have a starting place to fill out the rest of the details. And while the details are of interest they are not necessary to the most important conclusion: 911 was very definitely an inside job.

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes." ~ Benjamin Disraeli

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   14:04:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#887. To: Dakmar (#886)

I knew there was someone I left off the ping list. It was the fault of the Leprecohens - those damn Jewish Leprechauns do it to me every time.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   14:07:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#888. To: Original_Intent (#886) (Edited)

I have seen and heard it said that the technical level in the black ops world is, at any given moment, 20 to 40 years ahead of what is available in the unclassified world.

I don't believe this for a second. If anything, they are behind the curve in technology. Most technological advances do not come from these warmongers, they come from private businesses seeking to make a good product that benefits people for a profit. Warmongers then either buy these companies out or steal their inventions, they don't create much of anything on their own. The military industrial complex is know by its fruits, and those fruits are death, destruction and waste, it is not technological innovations.

As an aside I personally think that the technology to quickly, and relatively easily, explore the entire solar system has been available since at least the early 80's if not as far back as the late 60's.

We are exploring the solar system now, it is not a secret. The probes to Mars and Jupiter and its moons are not hidden. If you mean advanced, as in human travel throughout the solar system, then I doubt they have that capability considering they can't even show men on the moon but have to resort to film studios to give the illusion they are there.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-28   16:43:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#889. To: HOUNDDAWG, wudidiz, abraxas, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, buckeroo, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, farmfriend (#850)

THAT DAY, NORAD and the entire system was off their game.

What makes you think the US government does't RIP you off every day? Still your silly post means something especial... you believe the fuckers of our nation at the highest level care and even concern themselves about you or the taxpayer////... you are akin to FL and O_I, begging for government.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-28   17:16:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#890. To: RickyJ, Original_Intent (#888)

I don't believe this for a second. If anything, they are behind the curve in technology.

Have you ever worked at a classified government research facility? Are you forgetting about the Manhatten Project, and the fact that project produced the world's first atom bombs?

The military industrial complex is know by its fruits, and those fruits are death, destruction and waste, it is not technological innovations.

It might not be a positive innovation, but advanced technology using engineering methods unknown outside of classified circles would still be advanced technology.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   17:31:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#891. To: RickyJ (#888)

I have seen and heard it said that the technical level in the black ops world is, at any given moment, 20 to 40 years ahead of what is available in the unclassified world.

I don't believe this for a second. If anything, they are behind the curve in technology.

Just to cite an example - the SR-71 Mach 3+ super spy plane was operational in 1958. The government would not even admit its existence until 1972.

Based on photos and leaks the black world had a launch vehicle to orbit, from a piggy back set up, at least by the mid 90's.

Again from leaks etc., the integrated circuit chip was first developed in the black ops world and then seeded into private industry.

HAARP relies on, as near as anyone can tell, Scalar Technology developed by Nikola Tesla in the early part of the twentieth century.

We are exploring the solar system now, it is not a secret. The probes to Mars and Jupiter and its moons are not hidden. If you mean advanced, as in human travel throughout the solar system, then I doubt they have that capability considering they can't even show men on the moon but have to resort to film studios to give the illusion they are there.

I believe it very likely that we have already had one or more manned missions to Mars.

NASA is a "Dog and Pony" show using out of date technology, starved for funds to keep it so, and the real advanced stuff is buried in high security super secret test areas like Area 51, and others not known of, where the compartmentalization and secrecy is such that once you're in, you're in - forever.

While there is no definite confirmation there are rumors that ancient high tech depositories have been excavated, looted, and reverse engineered. Don't kid yourself we ARE NOT the apex of technologic achievement and based on the Indian Vedas and other physical evidences we have not yet reached the levels achieved by at least one prior advanced culture on this planet. For example Christopher Dunn, an aerospace machinist, has photos of things done in Egypt that could only have been done with powered rock cutting saws with precision adjustments able to cut complex curves. The "Sarcophagus" in the "King's Chamber" in the Great Pyramid is cut to such close tolerance that it is aerospace grade - the corners are "true" to within thousandths of an inch.

Because there is much incompetence in government, and corruption, do not mistake that for an inability to run secret research programs dealing in things that will not be public for another 30 to 50 years. For example I suspect that we already have a working fusion reactor design and the reason I believe that is the suppression of projects that were on the edge of becoming working installations and were shut down. As well the money spent to prop up programs that continually fail, but are useful to draw public attention - "watch this hand - not the other.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   17:41:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#892. To: FormerLurker (#890)

Have you ever worked at a classified government research facility?

No, I wouldn't work for them for any amount of money.

Are you forgetting about the Manhatten Project, and the fact that project produced the world's first atom bombs?

Yes, they did do that, but then again, who else would produce them but warmongers, no one else would even want to.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-28   17:45:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#893. To: buckeroo, wudidiz, abraxas, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, farmfriend (#889)

What makes you think the US government does't RIP you off every day? Still your silly post means something especial... you believe the fuckers of our nation at the highest level care and even concern themselves about you or the taxpayer////... you are akin to FL and O_I, begging for government.

I took the time to write something meaningful, and you disrespect me with this shit?

If you aren't going to make an effort then please don't even flag me. Your reply is the equivalent of scribbling with crayons and pretending that it's art.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   2:21:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#894. To: HOUNDDAWG, *Post Of The Day* (#893)

lolol...

oh dear


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-29   3:57:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#895. To: wudidiz, buckeroo, abraxas, Original_Intent, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, farmfriend (#894)

lolol...

oh dear

buck can mosh with the best of them when he tries.

And I'd just love to see a point by point refutation of my post if he thinks he can sidestep or "employ angular momentum"against" the truth long enough.

But, this deliberate diversion or more accurately, wild ass ricochet away from the heart of the discussion topped off with the assertion that calling out NORAD (and by implication The FAA and the airlines) as the complicit, conspiratorial liars they are is "demanding mo' gummint", well, I have to wonder if he let his cat walk on his keypad to type out that nonsense.

I mean, if he's eagerly anticipating his nightly bubble bath or otherwise preoccupied I wouldn't mind waiting for a reply. But, I won't accept this half assed judo throw horseshit.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   6:11:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#896. To: HOUNDDAWG (#893)

I took the time to write something meaningful, and you disrespect me with this shit?

If you aren't going to make an effort then please don't even flag me. Your reply is the equivalent of scribbling with crayons and pretending that it's art.

LOL! Buck is a lot like Shirley Q. Liquor in that he "don't know what he's dur'n" or even talkin' about.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-29   7:15:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#897. To: AGAviator (#585) (Edited)

Me: So who are those you've alledged to be "Bean Counters", AGA?

You: Those are Original_Indent auditors, supposed to have been killed by the Pentagon Pea Porridge "Not too hot, not too cold" event on 911.

Which wasn't violent enough to get rid of the Pentagon principals like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, but was managed well enough to kill all the heroic accountants, about to uncover a trillion dollar fraud, they couldn't be persuaded to be quiet about.

Unlike all the tens of thousands of other 911 conspirators not one of whom has ever come forward.

Original_Intent auditors? -- not Pentagon auditors?; or are you insinuating that he made them up and they weren't killed?

A trillion dollar fraud is a whole lotta "beans", as you say, but whose counting, eh? Me and that trillion is a huge shortcount that's missing about 1.3 trillion more.

I wonder who this unnamed, lucky Army auditor from Ft. Monmouth, NJ on temp duty at the Pentagon was in the article RickyJ posted @ #422. I suppose we'd have to contact the author of the article, Barbara Honegger, to have him called as a witness.

Excerpt from 911caper.com/2010/07/07/the-pentagon-attack-papers/:

I have interviewed an Army auditor from Ft. Monmouth, New Jersey, who was on temporary duty assignment at the Pentagon before, on and after 9/11. He was in the Army financial management spaces only minutes before the Pentagon explosion on the morning of 9/11. He had just returned to his temporary office on the ground floor of the adjacent south side of the Pentagon by the cafeteria when he heard an explosion and felt the building shake.

Immediately afterwards, he said, hundreds of panicked Pentagon personnel ran by him down the corridor just outside his office and out the South Entrance, yelling “Bombs!” and “A bomb went off!” The witness has requested that his name not be used in this summary, but is willing to testify to a grand jury or independent official investigation.

This Army financial management/audit area is part of, or contiguous to, the Army personnel offices, which was one of two main west section offices heavily destroyed in the Pentagon attack, the other being the Naval Command Center. The day before 9/11, September 10, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld held a press conference at which he acknowledged that the Pentagon was “missing”—could not account for and needed to “find”—$2.3 Trillion dollars (other reports said $2.6 Trillion). Were the auditors who could “follow the money,” and the computers whose data could help them do it, intentionally targeted? It is worth noting that the Pentagon’s top financial officer at the time, Dov Zakheim

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-29   10:15:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#898. To: GreyLmist (#897)

A trillion dollar fraud is a whole lotta "beans", as you say, but whose counting, eh? Me and that trillion is a huge shortcount that's missing about 1.3 trillion more.

The missing funds stories at the Pentagon actually go back decades and cover several administrations both Democrat & Republican. The processes in the Pentagon and its contractors were always sloppy.

There was no need to cover up for Bush and Rumsefeld especially kill auditors whose work would have covered many years going even before Lyndon B. Johnson.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   10:48:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#899. To: Original_Intent, GreyLmist, FormerLurker, wudidiz, abraxas, christine, HOUNDDAWG, Eric Stratton, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Critter (#886)

Have you ever had just-beyond-reach memories that needed retrieving? Here is one of mine, fortunately found for me by Agora Financial Publications July 28, 2010.

In reference to a film produced in cooperation with former US Comptroller David Walker, a conference speaker reminisced: "There was also the special moment in I.O.U.S.A. when Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said during a speech, 'According to some estimates we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.' Trillion with a 't.' He delivered that speech, by the way, on Sept. 10, 2001."

Here is another memory but it needs verifying. Some time ago I read that the wing of the Pentagon struck on Sept. 11, 2001, housed relatively few people but did include the accounting staff and the records pertaining to the missing $2.3 trillion.

Just a link in the chain, maybe...

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-29   11:42:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#900. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#899)

Oh yeah, sneaking in for 900.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   11:48:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#901. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#899)

Here is another memory but it needs verifying. Some time ago I read that the wing of the Pentagon struck on Sept. 11, 2001, housed relatively few people but did include the accounting staff and the records pertaining to the missing $2.3 trillion.

i remember that.

christine  posted on  2010-07-29   12:28:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#902. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#898)

The missing funds stories at the Pentagon actually go back decades and cover several administrations both Democrat & Republican. The processes in the Pentagon and its contractors were always sloppy.

Are you trying to say that Rumsfeld did NOT deliver an admission on 9/10/2001 that the DOD couldn't account for 2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS?

I don't recall any other such admission by a Secretary of Defense, ever.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#903. To: FormerLurker (#902)

I wonder if aggravator is saying or implying that they lose 2.3 trillion or so with every new administration or every year. Seems like a huge pile of money if they are "losing" that on a regular basis. Even just once is a huge pile of money.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-29   12:36:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#904. To: James Deffenbach (#903)

I wonder if aggravator is saying or implying that they lose 2.3 trillion or so with every new administration or every year. Seems like a huge pile of money if they are "losing" that on a regular basis. Even just once is a huge pile of money.

The TOTAL US National Debt is currently a bit over 13 trillion dollars. If they lost 2.3 trillion each new administration, I think it'd be a bit higher than that, given that trillions go towards spending each year.... In 2009 the US government spent 3.5 trillion dollars, where it took in 2.1 trillion. Source: United States federal budget

So that means they spent 1.7 trillion dollars more than they took in, adding that to the national debt. What it also means is that the DOD lost more money than what the US government took in back in 2009 from every tax resource at it's disposal.

Hell, I'd be happy with one thousandth of that 2.3 trillion, that'd be 2.3 BILLION dollars. Maybe even one millionth would be good, it's still 2.3 MILLION dollars.

2.3 trillion is a million chunks of 2.3 million dollars. That's a LOT of dough.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:50:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#905. To: FormerLurker (#904)

Of course it's a lot of money. That is why I was wondering if aggravator thinks--and I don't know if I should use the term "thinks" where he is concerned--that the sob's lose that much every few years and can't account for it. Like you, I would be very glad to have a thousandth of that or even a millionth. I could live like a king on that--even on half of that lesser amount, 1.15 million, would be enough to get by on a pretty good while.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-29   12:56:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#906. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, RickyJ, wudidiz, AGAviator (#871) (Edited)

Flagging Original_Intent and RickyJ to this post because I forgot to flag them to the previous one at #897 where they were mentioned.

Look at the pole in front of the men in the picture you posted, FL. [also at 0:42 sec. in wudidiz's video at #729, #740, and #857]

I wonder how what looks like a medical helicopter got parked so close to it. Must have been towed there when the propeller wasn't turning or it doesn't have a propeller, is all I can figure. I don't see how it could be started up in that parking space to be of any emergency use if it did have a propeller with that pole in the way.

"Mr. Aviator", does that seem at all unusual to you or do you think maybe the lawn at the Pentagon was used like a storage junkyard for vehicles that didn't work good? Also, there's a picture of a 757 cockpit @ #730 which O_I posted but I oddly haven't been able to locate one for a Boeing 767-223ER like AA11 reportedly was. Could you plz see what you can do to find an example for the 223ER extension and post it for us? TIA.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-29   13:10:56 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#907. To: GreyLmist, Original_Intent, RickyJ, wudidiz, AGAviator (#906)

Look at the pole in front of the men in the picture you posted, FL. [also at 0:42 sec. in wudidiz's video at #729, #740, and #857] I wonder how what looks like a medical helicopter got parked so close to it. Must have been towed there when the propeller wasn't turning or it doesn't have a propeller, is all I can figure. I don't see how it could be started up in that parking space to be of any emergency use if it did have a propeller with that pole in the way.

I'm guessing that the distance from the pole to the helicoptor is actually greater, and that it is perceived as being so close due to the depth of field of the camera lens.

In fact, if you look at where the bus is in relation to the men walking out of it at the further away shot at 0:46, it appears that the helicoptor isn't anywhere close to the pole, although it IS hidden behind the bus, so there's no way to get a good comparison.

About them poles (especially those at the beginning). They wouldn't be the ones that were supposedly "clipped" and knocked down by the aircraft, are they?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   13:20:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#908. To: FormerLurker (#907) (Edited)

I'm guessing that the distance from the pole to the helicoptor is actually greater, and that it is perceived as being so close due to the depth of field of the camera lens.

In fact, if you look at where the bus is in relation to the men walking out of it at the further away shot at 0:46, it appears that the helicoptor isn't anywhere close to the pole, although it IS hidden behind the bus, so there's no way to get a good comparison.

Yes, the comparison only raises even more questions and thanks for pointing that out. I'm gonna have to vote "No", though, on an optical illusion of depth perception as the explanation for such a big disparity between those 2 examples.

About them poles (especially those at the beginning). They wouldn't be the ones that were supposedly "clipped" and knocked down by the aircraft, are they?

Could be but aren't those to the right of the reporter around 0:46 the ones the guvbots say were knocked down? Sure does seem like one side or the other shouldn't still be in the area, according to the Official Storytellers.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-29   14:32:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#909. To: James Deffenbach, To, buckeroo, wudidiz, abraxas, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, farmfriend (#896) (Edited)

This video is the type of evidence that should result in criminal trials. Those who can ignore it (as honest folks are being murdered, "suicided" and otherwise destroyed for trying to expose the truth) may run right into their own consciences someday, and nothing anyone can say may be any comfort to them.

9/11 Experiments: The Mysterious Eutectic Steel

For the first quarter of the 20th Century and then some my grandfather worked like a DAWG as a mechanic-welder at the long defunct Atlantic Coast Lines Railroad yard, and when he got home from work piss tired and aggravated he had little patience with my father's antics. More than a few times ol' Gramps would beat the living Hell out of Pop until Gramps and "Grammy" finally decided that Pop was incorrigible at the age of nine, and they gave him to North Carolina's infamous reform school system where he remained until he was 18 years old.

It was my father's older sister, (Queen Of The Yummy Biscuit) my beloved Aunt Mae V. who told me how in his last years ol' Gramps would walk the streets in the evening weeping and muttering to himself, because he regretted what he did to his son all those years before.

And, despite the spirited exchanges I've had with some here about the unspeakable evils of 9/11, I don't wish that type of regret on them.

I just hope they understand that by providing cover for the most diabolical of un-American criminals, even in the abstract and from a distance, they are accruing moral and spiritual debt that can crush and even kill men of conscience.

My grandfather was dedicated to the railroad, and he even received a commendation from The Budd Company for solving a problem that plagued rail travelers. Specifically, when a train was in the station and the generator wasn't turning the lights were powered by batteries which were stored under the toilets in the restrooms. Gramps welded up a bracket, extended and re-routed the cables and hung the batteries outside and underneath the skirt, which provided great relief to those who had suffered from the concentrated acid fumes in confined WC's for years.

Like most working men with a strong work ethic his priorities were clear-he conserved his energy for his work and had no time for dealing with a boy who was struggling with adjustment problems of his own. (The city of Rocky Mount was not the same as growing up on a rural farm, something Gramps didn't understand)

Priorities change as we get older. And those who are compelled to side with demons, shapeshifters, lizards and horned übercapitalists now may find that as a companion evil will offer cold comfort in their dotage.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   19:15:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#910. To: FormerLurker, GreyLmist, buckeroo, turtle, critter, (#902)

Are you trying to say that Rumsfeld did NOT deliver an admission on 9/10/2001 that the DOD couldn't account for 2.3 TRILLION DOLLARS?

I don't recall any other such admission by a Secretary of Defense, ever.

It certainly didn't all happen on his watch. It went back decades.

And why would he talk to the press about it on 9/10 then stage a hijacking one day later?

After all, you guys are saying "they" didn't even want to do a 100% freefall speed CD because "they" didn't want people to be suspicious.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   19:15:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#911. To: HOUNDDAWG, wudidiz, abraxas, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator, farmfriend (#893)

I took the time to write something meaningful, and you disrespect me with this shit?

So let's parse your earlier post @850.....

The govt intercepts about 100 flights per year for various reasons and without a miss.

THAT DAY, NORAD and the entire system was off their game.

What makes you think the entire system id OFF THEIR GAME to begin with? All 19 of the illegal MFers were permitted by the state department free and capable liberty and freedoms in the USA... some (in fact) received US government training for their flight training.

NORAD watches international flights over the Northern Hemisphere for Canada and the USA:

The North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) is a bi-national United States and Canadian organization charged with the missions of aerospace warning and aerospace control for North America. Aerospace warning includes the monitoring of man-made objects in space, and the detection, validation, and warning of attack against North America whether by aircraft, missiles, or space vehicles, through mutual support arrangements with other commands. Aerospace control includes ensuring air sovereignty and air defense of the airspace of Canada and the United States. The May 2006 NORAD Agreement renewal added a maritime warning mission, which entails a shared awareness and understanding of the activities conducted in U.S. and Canadian maritime approaches, maritime areas and inland waterways.

Apparently you don't understand that America is not invincible... just as your obvious sidekicks, FL and O_L, you believe in some sort of government control to protect you at all times; this has never been the case.

In North America hijacked planes just don't turn off transponders, leave their flight paths and leisurely jet to their destinations unless those in power want them to arrive. And if that was the case it may not have been necessary for any schmucks to actually fly the planes.

That isn't true at all.

The evidence of govt involvement is overwhelming, but some cannot accept it because it requires them to see the shadow govt and their stooges for the truly diabolical creatures that they are.

What evidence? Show a single FACT or witness about government involvement.

It's one of our worst kept secrets that at command level in DC they will kill any Munchkin or even their own (Vince Foster, Paul Wellstone, William Colby) that threatens to side with the "enemy", the dumbshit people who actually believe in moral absolutes, i.e. Jesus, ethics, patriotism, loyalty, the constitution, etc.,.

Any PROOF with witnesses, documentation or even someone coming forward?

You must understand that many people would rather send you to prison than to accept the unpleasant truth about the govt they serve(d) and themselves.

Government knows only force ... but it doesn't have capability to perform clandestine power OVER the people.

It's no diff than when a stacked jury is asked to choose between the truth about the income tax while admitting they've been played as fools for years, or, they can consider themselves "highly intelligent, patriotic and law abiding" by convicting the annual publicity target selected to "stimulate voluntary compliance".

You must cite this idea with absolute proof. Until then, I am sceptical of your post.

State worship is the religion of former KGB snitches and the defenders of the govt's ever changing 9/11 fairie tale and as a religion it should not be underestimated. Hell, I'd bet that most of the assassins in The Phoenix Program still believe in what they did. They certainly aren't likely to grow consciences and face the fact that they are no different than any other murdering cutthroats in history. ("Dear Pentagon, Please stop sending my pension cheacks as I can no longer in good conscience accept them..." Riiiiiight. That'll be the day)

Don't you feel you get carried away at times?

Some assassins no doubt believed that their uniforms and military protocol ennobled their evil, just as some feel that Sicilian tradition, or wars fought under the banners of gang or ethnic loyalties (Bloods vs. Crips) are enough to allow them to remain "good Christians" or at the very least "noble warriors". (The Vatican Bank's laundering of mafia funds certainly did nothing to undermine this belief)

And MORE carried away? No fats? No proof? Just suspicion.

If you compare Major General Smedley Darlington Butler (WAR IS A RACKET) to Lieutenant General Lewis Burwell "Chesty" Puller it's easy to see that one flag officer was a man of good conscience who refused to use the flag as a blindfold while the other at the age of 67 asked to be reinstated for Vietnam, presumably ignoring the fact that our troops were dying in an undeclared "police action war" while Rockefeller's oil tankers never stopped moving in and out of "enemy harbors". (No declaration of war=no Geneva Convention protection. What 'Nam-era flag officer demanded this protection for his troops? Why, none as a matter of fact. BIG OIL and the MIC had needs after all....)

And? What's this got to do with 9/11?

A true patriot (like Butler) would criticize wars for crooked banker lackey-politicians. (like Kissinger) But, a state worshiper who apparently believed that all of his medals were awarded for honor (like Puller) was just too stupid to see that his self deception resulted in service to a truly diabolical god. His stupidity was reinforced by the fact that the truth was considered too rude to mention in polite company, i.e. a room filled with newspaper editors, politicians, diplomats, corporate profiteers and career climbing military officers.

Are you sure you are capable of discussing issues directly related with 9// or are you just another sanctimonious glutton for emotional appeal?

Puller's son was horribly maimed in 'Nam and after years as a govt lawyer, an unsuccessful campaign for Congress and writing the book FORTUNATE SON he eventually committed suicide.

Makes me want to cry... is this directly related to 9/11?

I'm not going to wish that it was his father who suffered the loss of both legs and parts of his hands in a mine explosion. But, I have to wonder if "Chesty" would have proudly borne his son's life changing injuries. He certainly didn't seem to believe that the men he commanded who were killed and injured in service to Big Oil or UNITED FRUIT CO. were wasted.

Was Chesty alive and kicking on 9/11?

You are off topic begging for emotional scenarios out of context with 9/11 events.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-29   19:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#912. To: buckeroo (#911)

Sorry buck, but your reply is too late.

But if you study hard and ace the finals (and don't ask Mom for help next time) you can still pass this course.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   19:22:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#913. To: HOUNDDAWG (#912)

Sorry buck, but your reply is too late.

?

Oh, you want an emotional slap on the back? Your post @850 sucked.... no FACTS, NO EVIDENCE, NO DOCUMENTATION, NO WITNESSES.. NADA....

You are just using an emotional appeal... have you ever thought of running for a US government elected position.... based on both the dumbfucks that vote and your emotional appeal... you could be at the helm.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-29   19:28:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#914. To: HOUNDDAWG (#909)

Excellent post, Dawg.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-29   19:29:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#915. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist, critter (#910)

It certainly didn't all happen on his watch. It went back decades.

You can't say that with any degree of certainty. It's quite possible that earlier corruption was hidden within legitimate expendatures and accounted for at least.

Here, they just simply couldn't account for where 2.3 TRILLION dollars went. It's not the same as not being able to account for a few million here or there, it's 2.3 million TIMES a million dollars that just sort of got "misplaced" somehow.

And why would he talk to the press about it on 9/10 then stage a hijacking one day later?

Ask him, maybe he'll let you in on his plan.

After all, you guys are saying "they" didn't even want to do a 100% freefall speed CD because "they" didn't want people to be suspicious.

Besides "looking suspicious", it would have been a dead giveaway since the explosions would have been visible. The delay utilized allowed the dust cloud to obscure the actual collapse, making the demolition neatly concealed behind it.

Such demolition wasn't so well concealed on WTC7, where it was blatently a controlled demolition. Besides the building falling at free fall speed, it also collapsed from the bottom up, rather than from the top down. Normal controlled demolitions are bottom up, rather than top to bottom as occured at the WTC towers.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   19:44:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#916. To: James Deffenbach (#914)

Thank you my friend.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   19:48:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#917. To: HOUNDDAWG (#912) (Edited)

Looks like buck has taken a liking to you HD, sort of like how a flea invested stray dog who's just been shooed away by one group of people manages to find another passerby's leg to hump, till he too get's a bit annoyed and shoos him off.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   19:55:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#918. To: FormerLurker (#917)

Looks like buck has taken a liking to you HD, sort of like how a flea invested stray dog get's shooed away by one group of people, then finds another passerby's leg to hump, till he too get's a bit annoyed and shoos him off.

I see how you intentionally publickly berate me.

Yet, you are a self-admitted LIAR,DECEITFUL POSTER incapable of striking an opinion worth any merit.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-29   19:58:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#919. To: HOUNDDAWG (#909)

great video, passing on to others.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-29   20:11:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#920. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, wudidiz, abraxas, Original_Intent, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, farmfriend, James_Deffenbach (#917)

buck bears the scars from his honorable service in Vietnam. Not only has he earned the right to write what he feels but, I will always respect him even as we disagree.

Despite my passionate and hopefully convincing assertions on this issue, I'm far more certain of what is kind than what is true. Given a choice between sharing my chocolate rations with buck or kicking him for the things he writes to me, I'd still choose the former.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   20:16:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#921. To: farmfriend (#919)

Thank you sweets.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   20:17:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#922. To: HOUNDDAWG (#920)

buck bears the scars from his honorable service in Vietnam. Not only has he earned the right to write what he feels but, I will always respect him even as we disagree.

Despite my passionate and hopefully convincing assertions on this issue, I'm far more certain of what is kind than what is true. Given a choice between sharing my chocolate rations with buck or kicking him for the things he writes to me, I'd still choose the former.


Name calling is juvenile.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-07-29   20:19:14 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#923. To: HOUNDDAWG (#920)

Despite my passionate and hopefully convincing assertions on this issue,

You follow the crowd of depots, never understanding anything more than other than your lamebrain, cockamamie BS that you post.

You scored less than the square root of -1 on post850. No facts, no witnesses, no documentation.... just pure BS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-29   20:23:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#924. To: buckeroo, HOUNDDAWG (#923)

You follow the crowd of depots, never understanding anything more than other than your lamebrain, cockamamie BS that you post.

Poor bucky, memorized all the answers but never understood the questions...

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-29   20:29:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#925. To: HOUNDDAWG, *9-11* (#909)

Bumping this


We're alien hybrids

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-29   20:29:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#926. To: buckeroo, Originial_Intent, FormerLurker (#918)

I see how you intentionally publickly berate me.

Might be a bit of karma for you public berating of Original_Intent.

You can't alter the laws of the universe Buck......you get what you give. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   20:34:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#927. To: FormerLurker (#915)

You can't say that with any degree of certainty. It's quite possible that earlier corruption was hidden within legitimate expendatures and accounted for at least.

That's what the news accounts at the time say.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   20:34:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#928. To: Dakmar (#924)

Poor bucky, memorized all the answers but never understood the questions...

I have QUESTIONS ... but in the face of a conspiracy... where are the FACTS, where are the WITNESSES, where is the DOCUMENTATION? One sliver of detail BEYOND pure speculation would suffice for poor ol' bucky.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-29   20:39:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#929. To: HOUNDDAWG (#909)

Most excellent video and post HOUNDDAWG. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   20:39:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#930. To: buckeroo (#928)

Ok Buck. You convinced me.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-29   20:40:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#931. To: wudidiz (#925)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-29   20:47:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#932. To: A K A Stone (#930)

lol.....brown noser. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   20:48:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#933. To: buckeroo (#928)

There are thousands of reasons to question the official 911 narrative, not the least of which is what happened to the engines on the plane that hit the pentagon? The wings would not have just folded under, letting the entire aircraft slip though the hole created by the fuselage. I know there were pictures of jet engines inside the pentagon, but I can't imagine how they would have wound up there without making their own holes, it's simple Newtonian physics.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-07-29   20:50:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#934. To: A K A Stone (#930) (Edited)

You do KNOW I'm just kidding with you on 930.......right?

I don't want you to get your panties all in a wad. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   20:55:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#935. To: abraxas (#934)

Thanks for the concern. You know I was tricking buck when I said he convinced me. Right.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-29   20:58:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#936. To: A K A Stone (#935)

Of course, but you are prone to getting irate before getting the joke sometimes so I was minimizing drama. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   21:00:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#937. To: abraxas (#936)

I have adjusted your status.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-29   21:25:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#938. To: A K A Stone (#937)

I have adjusted your status.

Up or down? lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   21:28:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#939. To: abraxas (#938)

up.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-29   21:30:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#940. To: A K A Stone (#939)

I LOVE UP!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   21:39:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#941. To: HOUNDDAWG, buckeroo, wudidiz, abraxas, Original_Intent, christine, Jethro_Tull, SonOfLiberty, farmfriend, James_Deffenbach (#920) (Edited)

buck bears the scars from his honorable service in Vietnam. Not only has he earned the right to write what he feels but, I will always respect him even as we disagree.

Despite my passionate and hopefully convincing assertions on this issue, I'm far more certain of what is kind than what is true. Given a choice between sharing my chocolate rations with buck or kicking him for the things he writes to me, I'd still choose the former.

I always used to respect buck, even when he was totally off the wall. Lately, I've lost that respect.

If he lay there dying and needed a bit to eat, and I had it, I'd probably still give him something to keep him alive, but it wouldn't be filet, and I still wouldn't like him as a person.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   22:09:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#942. To: buckeroo, Dakmar, FormerLurker, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, all (#928) (Edited)

Poor bucky, memorized all the answers but never understood the questions...

I have QUESTIONS ... but in the face of a conspiracy... where are the FACTS, where are the WITNESSES, where is the DOCUMENTATION? One sliver of detail BEYOND pure speculation would suffice for poor ol' bucky.

Uh, buck? We're engaging in a little citizen detective work. Do you know what detective work implies? It means you start off with the few facts to hand a build a picture with them. You can call it speculation if you wish, but it is more properly sleuthing and logical inference. One can reason out much of the picture just from the surrounding facts.

Steel framed buildings don't collapse as a result of oxygen starved office fires, and the buildings were designed to take a direct hit from a Boeing 707 which is just about the same size as a 767.

No plane hit WTC 7.

NORAD is the most advanced and heavily manned air defense and tracking system on the planet, and yet in two hours they were unable to intercept even one of the 4 airliners (saving 93 which was shot down). That just doesn't happen unless there is someone on the inside preventing them from doing their job. No one at NORAD was ever disciplined, and no one was ever reprimanded in any way. You are a Vet, as am I, and you know damn well that just does not happen. Somebody would have been hung even if it was just some poor corporal that got picked as the designated scapegoat.

Bush fought, opposed, stonewalled having a 911 commission for over a year. When they did he tried to stack it with Henry, CFR/Bilderberger, bloody handed monster, Kissinger in charge. When that didn't fly the committee he stonewalled having was stonewalled to the point that the chairman of the Commission and the Vice-Chair repudiated their own commission's report publicly.

And I could go on and on about the anomalies.

All I can say is that there are none so blind as he that will not see.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   22:14:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#943. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, Dakmar, wudidiz, James Deffenbach, HOUNDDAWG, all (#942)

Bush fought, opposed, stonewalled having a 911 commission for over a year. When they did he tried to stack it with Henry, CFR/Bilderberger, bloody handed monster, Kissinger in charge. When that didn't fly the committee he stonewalled having was stonewalled to the point that the chairman of the Commission and the Vice-Chair repudiated their own commission's report publicly.

That, and he would only testify in front of the commission if he were allowed to be accompanied by Dick Cheney, behind closed doors, and not under oath.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   22:17:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#944. To: FormerLurker (#943)

You can lead a horse to water ...

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   22:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#945. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#915)

Besides "looking suspicious", it would have been a dead giveaway since the explosions would have been visible. The delay utilized allowed the dust cloud to obscure the actual collapse, making the demolition neatly concealed behind it.

Yet you allege that a CD at the Pentagon destroying the offices of the accountants one day after a press report came out about missing money is...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   22:26:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#946. To: AGAviator (#945)

Yet you allege that a CD at the Pentagon destroying the offices of the accountants one day after a press report came out about missing money is...

A "CD"? Not hardly. It was an aerial attack, of that much is certain. It's just WHAT and WHICH aircraft hit it that is uncertain, along with WHO the pilot was.

Since you mention demolition, there ARE reports of bombs that exploded at 9:32 AM that morning within the Pentagon, where the aircraft impacted at 9:37. Too far of a difference to be negligible.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   22:30:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#947. To: AGAviator (#945)

Oh sorry, overlooked your point about "looking suspicious". Where has the media focused on such irregularities? It's only us here on the Internet on these forums who point these things out, the MSM is not even treating it as an interesting side story.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   22:35:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#948. To: FormerLurker (#946)

there ARE reports of bombs that exploded at 9:32 AM that morning within the Pentagon, where the aircraft impacted at 9:37. Too far of a difference to be negligible.

GWBush:

Skull and Bones, The Yale Secret Society
WITHIN the tomb students run on Skull and Bones time, which is five minutes ahead of the time in the rest of the world. "It was to encourage you to think that being in the building was so different from the outside world that you'd let your guard down," a Bonesman ('72) explains.
www.skulland crossbones.org/articles/skullandbones.htm

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-29   23:58:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#949. To: GreyLmist (#948)

Interesting.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   0:00:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#950. To: All (#908)

Michael Script - Dialogue Transcript

What can you do?

Small miracles, only so many. Some angels aren't so smart. They use them up in stupid ways.

Like the parking space angel?

I don't like to criticize other angels. ...I'll be with you in a minute...

Excerpt from Don't transform, restore values by Maj. Gen. Patrick Brady (U.S. Army retired) - Express-News:

[Charles Kelly] was the commander of the only air ambulance unit in Vietnam when Dust Off operations were little understood.

Kelly’s boss decided that Dust Off should be a part-time mission of the air ambulances. The aircraft would be used for ash and trash until there was a patient then a portable red cross would be slapped on the bird to fly the medical mission.

This was, of course, insane and Kelly was outraged. He openly denounced his leadership and set about to prove that no one could do the medical mission better than medics. Patient survival drove everything. He flew at night, in weather and landed on battlefields often during the battle. He became known as Mad Man Kelly and his exploits were legendary.

On July 1, 1964, Kelly came under heavy fire as he landed to rescue wounded soldiers. The ground forces screamed at him to get out. Kelly responded: “When I have your wounded.”

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-30   1:00:42 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#951. To: HAPPY2BME-4UM (#899)

Just a link in the chain, maybe...

Thanks so much, HAPPY. Here's some more of those:

_______

Excerpts from Rumsfeld speech at Google's cache of http://www.defense.gov/speeches/speech.aspx?speechid=430. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Jul 25, 2010 22:37:49 GMT:

DOD Acquisition and Logistics Excellence Week Kickoff—Bureaucracy to Battlefield
Remarks as Delivered by Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, The Pentagon , Monday, September 10, 2001

.
The technology revolution has transformed organizations across the private sector, but not ours, not fully, not yet. We are, as they say, tangled in our anchor chain. Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.
.
Let me conclude with this note. Some may ask, defensively so, will this war on bureaucracy succeed where others have failed? To that I offer three replies. First is the acknowledgement, indeed this caution: Change is hard. It's hard for some to bear, and it's hard for all of us to achieve.

There's a myth, sort of a legend, that money enters this building and disappears, like a bright light into a black hole, never to be seen again. In truth, there is a real person at the other end of every dollar, a real person who's in charge of every domain, and that means that there will be real consequences from, and real resistance to, fundamental change. We will not complete this work in one year, or five years, or even eight years. An institution built with trillions of dollars over decades of time does not turn on a dime. Some say it's like turning a battleship. I suspect it's more difficult.
.
Finally, this effort will succeed because it must. We really have no choice. It is not, in the end, about business practices, nor is the goal to improve figures on the bottom line. It's really about the security of the United States of America. And let there be no mistake, it is a matter of life and death. Our job is defending America, and if we cannot change the way we do business, then we cannot do our job well, and we must. So today we declare war on bureaucracy, not people, but processes, a campaign to shift Pentagon resources from the tail to the tooth. All hands will be required, and it will take the best of all of us.

_______

Missing Pentagon Trillions - Where Did They COME From?

By Joshua Daniels 1-21-8

On September 10, 2001, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld admitted that the Pentagon had lost, by the estimate he chose to use for his speech, 2.3 trillion dollars. Many of you good readers know about this, and are asking where the money went. That's a good question, but what really intrigues me is:

Where did it come from?

If you add up the entire US defense budgets from 1996 to 2001, you only come up with circa 1.6 trillion. Yet, according to Rummy, not only was that much money lost, but an ADDITIONAL 700 BILLION dollars has disappeared. Remember, we're talking about 2.3 trillion dollars "missing."

Exact figures very by source, but are close to each other, so I'll deal in round numbers. To come up with 2.3 trillion dollars of military spending, you have to add up all the defense budgets from about 1991 to 2001. For all those years, the Pentagon spent hundreds of billions and didn't get a single receipt, didn't account for a single dime? Not possible, and no one's claiming that it happened. The missing money was part of some budget, but it's a number bigger than the defense budgets we're to believe it's a "part" of, so it was a part of some OTHER budget, one we don't know about.

1996 through 2001 is a lot of years for the Government Accounting Office (GAO) to fail to notice that the entire defense budget went missing. I don't believe they did fail to notice it, because the missing money wasn't on the books to begin with. It couldn't have been; it's more money than we gave them.

This is not an accounting error. We know the soldiers and sailors got paid, the tanks and planes got bought, and the missiles got purchased, because the companies that made them cashed the checks, and the banks issued statements showing that the money went out and to whom it went. We know that most of that money got properly accounted for, because the GAO and OMB have been checking figures, making recommendations for savings, etc., and would have spotted a gap of any real size. We also suspect the usual drugs, cars, mansions, and hookers of all ages and sexes. But all these only add up to the official hundreds of billions, not the missing thousands of billions.

Most of the missing money could never have been part of a defense budget, and could not have come from our government. It had to have come from someone else, someone who MUST want the Pentagon to do something for them. Nobody gives gifts that big but God.

So, just who hired the Pentagon to do whatever they hired it to do? Who wrote those checks? What are they paying for? When do they expect it? Who is its target? How can we put a stop to this blatant prostitution?

I have no answers, but I can narrow the list: not many people outside the Federal Reserve owners have access to that kind of money. And not many people beside the Federal Reserve owners want to use the American military and its loyal, devoted troops to bend the world to their will.

Come to think of it, NO ONE outside the Federal Reserve owners meets those two criteria.

You can't change the plantation, and there has never been a successful peasant revolt throughout history.

You can, however, leave the plantation, build a position of strength, and then take the plantation from the slavers and run it according to sane principles. I'm preparing to do exactly that. I think you should, too.

Joshua Daniels has been a Consulting Business Analyst for the past twelve years. More recently, he has been devoting his spare time to developing a viable alternative to the rat race, and has succeeded. Noticing little problems like this one are sort of a hobby for him.

_______

Brady Bond issue info at Post #479

_______

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-30   3:42:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#952. To: All (#951)

Brady Bond issue info at Post #479

Some references on Brady Bonds for research:

Going Global: Brady Bonds - Education Center - Yahoo! Finance
Brady Bonds are named after former U.S. Treasury Secretary Nicholas Brady
finance.yahoo.com › Education Center › Bond

Geithner Revisits Brady Bonds - Forbes.com
www.forbes.com/.../brady-bonds-fed-opinions-contributors- geithner.html :

Nicholas Brady was Treasury secretary in the George H. W. Bush administration, and he came up with a plan that was not terribly well received at the time. He allowed Mexico to acquire an odd, zero-coupon U.S. Treasury bond to be used as collateral (to assure the repayment of principal but not the interest on the bonds) for a selection of new Mexican government bonds that could be exchanged for old Mexican bank loans at a discount. The details of the plan were complicated, and no one knew whether it would work or not. The banks (perhaps with a firm nudge from the Fed) agreed to exchange their old bonds for new bonds and sold the new bonds in the market, which provided liquidity for the securities, which boosted their prices. Within a few years, many other countries also issued billions of dollars of Brady Bonds, and the banking and Third World debt crisis moved into the history books. [end excerpt]

THE BRADY BONDS, THE FRAUDS & 1991 BANK FAILURES By V.K. Durham
www.theantech amber.net/V_K.../TexasTwoStep7.html :

DISCERNING MINDS, can easily connect the "dots" between the 10 years between September 12, 1991 and the September 11, 2001 incidents.

The TRANSACTION was put down THROUGH ISRAEL. The transaction involved, Russia, China, Korea, Germany, France, Japan, and THE SAUDI'S. Ask yourself: WHICH OF THESE NATIONS ARE CURRENTLY INVOLVED "IN THIS CURRENT PENDING WAR?"

This TRANSACTION was to continue until: "THE U.S. DOLLAR WAS EXHAUSTED. THE JAPANESE YEN WAS EXHAUSTED. THE GERMAN DUTCH MARK WAS EXHAUSTED."

Further ask of yourself: " AFTER THE 10 YEAR TERM OF THE "AGREEMENT" OF SEPTEMBER 12, 1991 WHICH ENDED ON OR ABOUT 9/11/01; WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE U.S. DOLLAR? WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE JAPANESE YEN? WHAT IS THE CONDITION OF THE GERMAN DUTCH MARK?" [end excerpt]

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-30   4:23:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#953. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker (#17) (Edited)

Me: What satelite phones with noise filters? I don't understand your next question about sotto voce. There were places in the alleged phone call recordings without anyone speaking and no engine-noise heard. And the Right Here link you posted to me is the very same NTSB pdf footnote link I posted to you from your Wikipedia page reference for Flight 77 that had nothing in it at all about 40 hours and 11 flights prior to 9/11 on the FDR.

You: Here's a Flight 11 recorded call including Betty Ong, going on for 8 minutes.

I hear engine noise in the background. How about you?

As far as nit picking over minutiae, the issues have always been whether (A) Any actual tangible forensic evidence contradicting CT's exists, and (B) Whether verifiable evidence supporting CT's exists, not arm waving generalizations and selective editings of evidence used elsewhere.

__________

Sounds like it might be static but could be construed as engine-noise. Here's an alleged recording of CeeCee Lyles' call that sounds less staticy:

Video by Fight0Tyranny: Flight 93 - Exposed -Smoking Gun Evidence.

Video by WelcomeToKilltown: CeeCee Lyles airphone call allegedly from UA93

WelcomeToKilltown | July 26, 2008

Creepy phone call from CeeCee Lyles leaving a message to her husband allegedly from Flight 93.

After her call, a creepy faint voice is heard saying "You did great!"

She refers to their kids as "my children," not "our children."

It also sounds like she is purposely having a hard time hanging up the phone. Other strange voices are heard in the background.

Also, she doesn't describe the ethnicity or any other description of the hijackers other than there were 3 of them.

Find by 'CanadianVandal'

_______________

About the alleged AA11 B.Ong call, she mentions people having trouble breathing in business class because of something that might have been sprayed but the person supposedly coming from that area (that might be just curtained off) doesn't sound like that, neither does B.Ong, and no coughing or panicked passenger sounds are heard. Also, B.Ong doesn't identify hijackers on the recording or their seat numbers. Any info of that comes from the unreliable witness, Nydia Gonzalez at Reservations, who calls them "gents" and relays wrongly to the AA emergency lineman that "everyone's been stabbed." B.Ong's audio is shut off during medical info, after stating that no one else was contacted, and Gonzalez could be making everything up thereafter.

FormerLurker, I flagged you to this to ask if you could locate a pic I think you posted and commented on -- a man picking up debris at the Pentagon where you mentioned his shoes, iirc.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-30   5:46:51 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#954. To: Original_Intent (#886) (Edited)

Thank you for your eloquent response, sir. I would like to reply to it in a few days to be able to better address some of the issues you spoke of. For now, I can tell you speaking for myself that I suspected very soon after 9/11 that there were only "paper planes" of a sort being reported and projected for FX before there was a No Planes research and investigation branch of the Truth Movement. Re: holograms: I was in line for something at Disneyland about 30 years ago when I heard a small voice saying, "Help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi. You're my only hope." It was a tiny, lifelike and moving hologram of Princess Leia from Star Wars. There was also a really cool place with 3D stuff flying around that looked so real it seemed like you could touch them. However, the No Planes research is focused on CGI/Computer Graphic Imagery and not holograms. Ref: Killtown's CGI work at http://killtown.911review.org/.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-07-30   6:24:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#955. To: GreyLmist, buckeroo, turtle (#953) (Edited)

(B) Whether verifiable evidence supporting CT's exists, not arm waving generalizations and selective editings of evidence used elsewhere.

Like expecting someone making a call during a life and death crisis to make statements you won't find something to nit pick apart 8 years after it's made.

no coughing or panicked passenger sounds are heard. Also, B.Ong doesn't identify hijackers on the recording or their seat numbers. Any info of that comes from the unreliable witness, Nydia Gonzalez at Reservations, who calls them "gents"

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   6:49:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#956. To: GreyLmist (#950) (Edited)

So the men getting off the bus are likely medics. Young, fit, carrying large bags with lots of equipment in them, heading to the action.

So where's the conspiracy?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   6:53:35 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#957. To: HOUNDDAWG (#920)

buck bears the scars from his honorable service in Vietnam. Not only has he earned the right to write what he feels but, I will always respect him even as we disagree.

His service in Vietnam, honorable or not, confers no shield of invisibility to the establishment agitprop buck posts these days. He posts bs and he can be expected to be called on it. I used to respect him some but have lost that since he became a willing toady for the establishment whores who would kill us all if it suited their purposes. No one has said that he doesn't have the right to post bs but when it can be clearly seen for what it is then other people have the right to call him on it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-30   8:38:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#958. To: GreyLmist (#951)

Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck ...

Thanks!

U.S. Constitution - Article IV, Section 4: NO BORDERS + NO LAWS = NO COUNTRY

HAPPY2BME-4UM  posted on  2010-07-30   10:32:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#959. To: AGAviator, GreyLmist (#956)

So the men getting off the bus are likely medics. Young, fit, carrying large bags with lots of equipment in them, heading to the action.

Medics in suits? Yeah right...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   11:31:55 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#960. To: GreyLmist (#954)

You are most welcome and I thank you for your kind reply. While I will await your full thoughts before expressing much in the way of misgivings (and peruse your link). I would simply suggest that any type of imagery would require sound effects in order to be effective, thus requiring an omnidirectional sound projection system to accompany any image projection. Again, while technically doable I do not think it a best fit to the available data. However, I'll withhold final judgment pending more data.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   16:05:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#961. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, christine, jethro tull, former lurker, eric stratton, itsalmosttolate, abraxass (#960)

Here is a complete 911 video from various networks.

http://www.archive.org/details/sept_11_tv_archive

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-30   23:08:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#962. To: A K A Stone (#961)

Thank you worthy sir.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   23:16:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#963. To: Original_Intent (#962)

Here is how I found it.

http://libertysflame.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=11763&Disp=5#C5 I haven't seen this complete a library on 911 before.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-30   23:20:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#964. To: Original_Intent (#962)

Here is a sample. Good Morning America on 911 right before it happened and on.

A K A Stone  posted on  2010-07-30   23:23:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#965. To: FormerLurker (#959) (Edited)

Medics in suits? Yeah right...

God, you're even going to twist that statement?

Are the persons in your photo "getting off the bus?"

You see any bus in your photo?

Are the 2 people in your photo "carrying large bags of equipment?"

WTF are these people, in my photo, heading to the action?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   23:44:48 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#966. To: AGAviator (#965)

WTF are these people, in my photo, heading to the action?

Good question, but the guys in suits getting off the bus look very similar to the ones picking up debris. In fact, they are wearing the same clothes basically, except for the fact in one picture they're wearing long sleeve shirts, and in the other they're wearing short sleeve shirts.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   0:05:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#967. To: FormerLurker (#966)

The guys in suits getting off the bus look very similar to the ones picking up debris

I don't think so at all. The people coming off the bus seem 10-20 years younger and in far better physical condition. If I had to guess I'd say they're combat trained medics, while the persons holding debris pieces are mid management investigators.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   0:17:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#968. To: buckeroo, Dakmar, christine, James_Deffenbach, Original_Intent, abraxas, farmfriend (#928)

Poor bucky, memorized all the answers but never understood the questions...

I have QUESTIONS ... but in the face of a conspiracy... where are the FACTS, where are the WITNESSES, where is the DOCUMENTATION? One sliver of detail BEYOND pure speculation would suffice for poor ol' bucky.

You are well aware that the multiple murders of 9/11 were not treated as crimes, and no effort was made to preserve the evidence for proper forensic investigation. And, as with all derailed investigations against our wormy, corrupt govt, important witnesses always die under mysterious circumstances. And, in the absence of proper forensic investigations and witnesses (and surviving family members who refuse to be bought off and silenced) any attempt to document anything to the satisfaction of the govt criminals who are continuing to abet the crimes is a bit premature. If you take the position that there isn't enough evidence to warrant a proper investigation of 9/11 now, then I DARE YOU TO WRITE THAT FOR ALL TO SEE!

The evidence (which could not be buried or otherwise obfuscated) coupled with the fact that you aren't the slightest bit suspicious or even curious about these statistically impossible "coincidences" is all the proof I need that you are either incapable of critical thought processes or (more likely) a goddamned liar.

Either way, you and your heaping piles of lame insults in response to points which you're incapable of answering don't deserve any more well reasoned responses.

Only the very dumb or the very corrupt can view the mountains of evidence, (i.e. fine powdered concrete dust and molten metal a month after the implosions all neatly piled into the buildings' own footprints after collapsing at free fall speed, including materials ejected at 100 mph during the collapse) and ask the questions you've asked.

Enough great scientific minds have confirmed that which your cowardly black soul cannot, and reliance upon the dumbed down mentality of the public street will soon fail you and others who are so desperately trying to keep the lid on this boiling pressure cooker. Simply put, the fact that most Americans are too stupid to understand the scientific and physical principles and irrefutable evidence that is not subject to horseshit rhetorical spin will not protect the criminals forever.

If you are involved you'd better start making travel plans, preferably to a country with no extradition treaty with the US. If not then prepare for a new screen name so you can come back and sneak up on us again, okay, Rabbi?

I suppose your next tactic will be, "Why are we funding these WTC investigations when America's infrastructure is collapsing? Call or write your congressman now and demand that WTC funds be used to inspect our bridges!"

After conferring with others I no longer believe your story about being a critically burned Vietnam vet. Where are the video clips from your appearances on the 700 Club? No FACTS, no WITNESSES, no DOCUMENTATION?

No credibility.

You're just another rabbi typing furiously away in the basement of some Israeli Yeshiva with a twofold mission; to derail the 9/11 investigation and to scratch the fleas in your beard.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-31   3:31:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#969. To: FormerLurker, farmfriend, your_neighbor, Original_Intent, Lod, wudidiz, christine, buckeroo, abraxas, James Deffenbach, (#941)

I always used to respect buck, even when he was totally off the wall. Lately, I've lost that respect.

I've had some dialogue behind the scenes and I agree with you.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-31   3:53:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#970. To: FormerLurker, farmfriend, your_neighbor, Original_Intent, Lod, wudidiz, christine, buckeroo, abraxas, James Deffenbach (#943)

Bush fought, opposed, stonewalled having a 911 commission for over a year. When they did he tried to stack it with Henry, CFR/Bilderberger, bloody handed monster, Kissinger in charge. When that didn't fly the committee he stonewalled having was stonewalled to the point that the chairman of the Commission and the Vice-Chair repudiated their own commission's report publicly.

That, and he would only testify in front of the commission if he were allowed to be accompanied by Dick Cheney, behind closed doors, and not under oath.

DAWG: "Doesn't this make you the slightest bit suspicious, buck?"

buckaroo: "Nope!"Photobucket

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-31   3:58:03 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#971. To: A K A Stone (#961)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-31   8:01:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#972. To: HOUNDDAWG (#968)

Either way, you and your heaping piles of lame insults in response to points which you're incapable of answering don't deserve any more well reasoned responses.

Only the very dumb or the very corrupt can view the mountains of evidence, (i.e. fine powdered concrete dust and molten metal a month after the implosions all neatly piled into the buildings' own footprints after collapsing at free fall speed, including materials ejected at 100 mph during the collapse) and ask the questions you've asked.

Enough great scientific minds have confirmed that which your cowardly black soul cannot, and reliance upon the dumbed down mentality of the public street will soon fail you and others who are so desperately trying to keep the lid on this boiling pressure cooker. Simply put, the fact that most Americans are too stupid to understand the scientific and physical principles and irrefutable evidence that is not subject to horseshit rhetorical spin will not protect the criminals forever.

That was a fine post, Dawg.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-31   10:26:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#973. To: HOUNDDAWG, *Post of the Day* (#968)

outstanding...

christine  posted on  2010-07-31   10:35:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#974. To: christine, HOUNDDAWG (#973)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-07-31   11:00:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#975. To: Eric Stratton (#971)

A few points for your list would be:

1. The two hour advance warning employees at the Israeli Instant Messaging Company Odigo received.

2. The "Dancing Israelis".

3. That there were "exercises" using basically the same scenario as the 911 attacks that were being conducted the morning of 911.

4. That the supposed phone calls by Ted Olson have been completely disproved - by Ted Olson has he has changed his story on at least two occasions. One call got through - duration zero.

5. That NONE of the pilots on any of the 4 aircraft made a distress call or typed out the 4 digit Hijack Code (which they are trained to do and takes about 2 to 3 seconds). The planes without warning simply ceased transmitting.

6. That the North American Air Defense Command was able to scramble jets and have them intercept golfer Payne Stewart's Lear jet within 30 minutes but were unable to intercept even 1 out of 4 "hijacked" airliners in 2 hours.

What I would suggest is to start a thread on the subject of 911 coincidences and explain in the header essay what you are looking for i.e., "coincidences" that are not arcane and that can be communicated simply to raw public.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-31   23:17:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#976. To: James Deffenbach (#972)

Thank you, J_D.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-01   2:19:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#977. To: christine, Eric Stratton (#973)

And, thank you chris and Eric, and please forgive my late arrival into the light of understanding.

I made an allowance for buckaroo because of my brother, a Nam vet who succumbed to Agent Orange-related problems.

But, after thinking it over I realized that because of the despicable way the V.A., The VFW, Hollywood producers (who like to script Nam vets as mad bombing bank robbers) and those in govt who could remedy these injustices treat Nam vets, I can't recall ever meeting a single veteran who was so anxious to "commit internet perjury" in defense of the criminal cartel that is FEDGOV.

Ordinarily I assume that shills in general and 9/11 shills in particular (especially one who has demonstrated that he'll lie faster than a pony can trot) are lying about everything they offer by way of their "credibility resume".

I foolishly assumed that one thing buck wrote was the gospel truth when he has yet to write a single thing on any issue that I could verify as true.

In the future he gets no more benefit of the doubt than he is willing to grant to the patriots he so cheerfully savages, patriots who are trying to save America, not earn medals for kissing the asses of truly diabolical mass murderers and their henchmen.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-01   2:39:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#978. To: HOUNDDAWG (#977)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-08-01   8:35:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#979. To: Original_Intent (#975)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-08-01   8:56:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#980. To: Original_Intent (#442)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-08-01   9:50:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#981. To: Eric Stratton, Original_Intent (#980)

the 32 videos confiscated and hidden by the FBI the afternoon of 911 (How did they know where ALL the videos were just hours after the event?)

Just wondering if they had search and seizure warrants prepared ahead of time for each location or figured they didn't need any warrants to do that and, if so, why.

http://www.usconstitution.ne t/ const.html#Am4

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-01   16:43:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#982. To: GreyLmist (#981)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-08-01   18:58:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#983. To: AGAviator (#956)

So the men getting off the bus are likely medics. Young, fit, carrying large bags with lots of equipment in them, heading to the action.

So where's the conspiracy?

I asked you if you thought there was anything unusual at all about the helicopter parked so close to the pole, not what you think about the men.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-01   23:44:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#984. To: AGAviator (#955) (Edited)

Like expecting someone making a call during a life and death crisis to make statements you won't find something to nit pick apart 8 years after it's made.

That call sounds more like reservations being made for a medical operation than a life and death hijacking crisis. The call supposedly lasted 20 minutes, the first 12 minutes are missing, and about half of the 8 minute recording is mostly concerned with inane questioning about what seat B.Ong was sitting in -- like its of some mathematical "order of operations" importance or something. Gonzalez asks twice if anyone else was contacted, yet about 16 minutes were wasted by her and the alleged staff contacting no one they should have if a hijack was actually in process. You posted the video-recording that doesn't really support the official story and these are the established facts of evidence shown from it: no mace-coughing or panicked passenger sounds are heard. Also, B.Ong doesn't identify hijackers on the recording or their seat numbers. Any info of that comes from the unreliable witness, Nydia Gonzalez, alleged operations specialist at Raliegh Reservations, who calls them "gents" and relays wrongly to the alleged AA emergency lineman that "the pilot, everyone's been stabbed." B.Ong's audio is shut off during medical info, after stating that no one else was contacted, and Gonzalez could be making everything up thereafter.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-02   1:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#985. To: FormerLurker, All (#953) (Edited)

FormerLurker, I flagged you to this to ask if you could locate a pic I think you posted and commented on -- a man picking up debris at the Pentagon where you mentioned his shoes, iirc.

I found the pic I asked you about but it wasn't posted by you or in this forum:

I wanted to compare the bald man on the left in the blue FBI jacket to a pic of CeeCee Lyles' alleged husband, who is said to be a Florida law enforcement officer:

Lorne Lyles, with sons Justin and Jordan, is recognized in 2002 in the Florida Legislature. His wife, CeeCee Lyles, was a flight attendant on United Flight 93 that crashed as a result of terrorism.:

Excerpts from a CeeCee Lyles bio-site:

The flight attendant's husband, Lorne Lyles, 31, is a police officer in Fort Myers, Fla. It was the second marriage for both; together, they had four children.

The Lyles previously lived in Fort Pierce, Fla., where both worked for the Fort Pierce Police Department, said Jessica Williams, who knows the family.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-02   1:49:21 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#986. To: GreyLmist (#985)

I blew it up until I was sure. The FBI guy has a different shaped head, larger forehead for one, and is definitely lighter skinned. Not the same man.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-02   2:05:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#987. To: Eric Stratton (#982)

According to the CITGO station owner they just came and took it w/o warrant.

I was taking my pics the evening after from just beyond the CITGO station and was chased outta there. I was on the road out in front of the Navy Annex. They dispatched a cop that came all the way over on foot to tell me I was "about to have a very bad day" in a tremendously hostile tone.

Thanks for those reports, Eric. Sounds like not only was the 4th Amendment violated by seizure of the videos w/o warrant and unreasonably long retention of them but you were threatened with cruel and unusual punishment -- which would have been a violation of the 8th Amendment.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-02   2:15:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#988. To: Original_Intent (#986)

Maybe you're right that it's not the same man but the shape of the ears look very similar, imo.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-02   2:19:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#989. To: Original_Intent (#886)

Hi,

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to you on this again, as I said I would. I'm pressed for time right now but wanted to drop by on my way to the outside world to speak with you a bit more about the issues you addressed and to clarify my views on the No Planes field of research/investigation.

After rereading your post, you've said everything so well and comprehensively that I hope everyone here will take the time to read it too. There's not much at this point I can think of to add or contest. Yes, sound effects would likely be involved to some extent in the No Planes scenarios but holograms aren't a component that would be necessary to bring about the wanted effect which could be accomplished by CGI, selected interviews of pre-programmed "witness" actors, confused witnesses, media blackouts of those who didn't see planes or only heard sounds as if there were and so on. The old "Occam's Razor" axiom pushed so often by the Official Conspiracy Theorists backfired on them because the only way Inside Jobbers could virtually control the unfolding with any certainties would be to not use hijackers and planes, wherein so many things could go wrong for them. Gerard Holmgren, who recently died of cancer, is one of the No Planes researchers/investigators who did extensive work that indicates many of the alleged witnesses are possibly fake. I think you posted something he wrote before so I believe you respected him, as I and others do, as an intelligent and credible guide through treacherous "terrain" from this disaster. Who knows, maybe he can still be a guiding spirit for us that can ease some misgivings about the No Planes perspective, at least through the writings he gave us. I realize the first impulse of most people is to slam the door on it and distance themselves hurredly from it but I'm sure they can't be sure that it couldn't be true so to do that is like demanding the data fit a preset conclusion, as GWBush and crew wanted from Intel and short-selling what might actually be the Truth for "audience appeal", similar to the stock market short sellers surrounding 9/11.

Please keep in mind when considering the No Planes line of research and investigation that there are strong motives for Inside Job perps to not demolish planes they could profit from in the black market. Intact, they could even be used for their plans of extraordinary rendition. Parted out, they could have dual use purposes for guided missle technology and Boeing has a history if trafficking in those parts more than 100 times. The No Planes scenario is so far from a k00k theory that some people suspiciously seem to be working in overdrive to turn heads away from that direction so they can escape.

Nice talking to ya, wise one. :) See ya next time.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2010-08-06   11:00:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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