See other 9/11 Articles
Title: The 9/11 conspiracy plots thicken
Source:
Seattle Times
URL Source: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ht ... /2003250424_911conspire09.html
Published: Sep 09, 2006
Author: Michael Powell, wapo
Post Date: 2010-07-19 22:23:35 by Dakmar
Keywords: None
Views: 21834
Comments: 989
They are politically diverse and include academics, ex-officials and Web surfers. All share a belief that the Bush administration played a role in the 9/11 attacks. Their numbers seem to speak to Americans' innate distrust of their government. The Washington Post NEW YORK — He felt no shiver of doubt in those first terrible hours. He watched the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and assumed al-Qaida had wreaked terrible vengeance. He listened to anchors and military experts and assumed the facts of Sept. 11, 2001, were as stated on the screen. It was a year before David Ray Griffin, an eminent liberal theologian and philosopher, began his stroll down the path of disbelief. He wondered why Bush listened to a child's story while the nation was attacked and how Osama bin Laden, America's Public Enemy No. 1, escaped in the mountains of Tora Bora. He wondered why 110-story towers crashed and military jets failed to intercept even one airliner. He read the 9/11 Commission report with a swell of anger. Contradictions were ignored and no military or civilian official was reprimanded, much less cashiered. "To me, the report read as a cartoon," Griffin said. "It's a much greater stretch to accept the official conspiracy story than to consider the alternatives." Such as? "There was massive complicity in this attack by U.S. government operatives." If that feels like a skip off the cliff of established reality, more Americans are in free fall than you might guess. There are few more startling measures of American distrust of leaders than the extent of belief that the Bush administration had a hand in the attacks of Sept. 11 to spark an invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. 36 percent suspicious A recent Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll of 1,010 Americans found that 36 percent suspect the U.S. government promoted the attacks or intentionally sat on its hands. Sixteen percent believe explosives brought down the towers. Twelve percent believe a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Distrust percolates more strongly near Ground Zero. A Zogby International poll of New York City residents two years ago found 49.3 percent believed the government "consciously failed to act." Establishment assessments of the believers tend toward the psychotherapeutic. Many academics, politicians and thinkers left, right and center say the conspiracy theories are a case of one plus one equals five. It's a piling up of improbabilities. Thomas Eager, a professor of materials science at MIT, has studied the collapse of the twin towers. "At first, I thought it was amazing that the buildings would come down in their own footprints," Eager says. "Then I realized that it wasn't that amazing — it's the only way a building that weighs a million tons and is 95 percent air can come down." But the chatter out there is loud enough for the National Institute of Standards and Technology to post a Web "fact sheet" poking holes in the conspiracy theories and defending its report on the towers. Motley crew The loose agglomeration known as the "9/11 Truth Movement" has stopped looking for truth from the government. A cacophonous and free-range a bunch of conspiracists, they produce hip-hop inflected documentaries and scholarly conferences. The Web is their mother lode. Every citizen is a researcher. Did you see that the CIA met with bin Laden in a hospital room in Dubai? Check out this Pakistani site; there are really weird doings in Baluchistan ... Peter Knight, senior lecturer in American studies at the University of Manchester and editor of the 2002 book "Conspiracy Nation: The Politics of Paranoia in Postwar America," called the movement "a strange beast, an amalgam of elements. You've got the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq war crowd — you know, if they lied about the war, maybe they lied about 9/11. Another part is people merely interested in the anomalies, with no preconceived political agenda. "Then you have the more traditional right-wing conspiracy part of the continuum that believes a vast cabal has taken over the United States, the mega-conspiracy of the right's new world order. To them, all of these things are connected. Each group inserts 9/11 into its pre-existing conspiracy model." The academic wing is led by Griffin, who founded the Center for a Postmodern World at Claremont University; James Fetzer, a tenured philosopher at the University of Minnesota; and Daniel Orr, retired chairman of the economics department at the University of Illinois. Professor suspended The movement's de facto minister of engineering is Steven Jones, a tenured physics professor at Brigham Young University who has studied vectors and velocities and tested explosives and concluded that the collapse of the twin towers is best explained as controlled demolition, sped by a thousand pounds of high-grade thermite. Jones has been placed on paid leave while the Mormon-church-owned school investigates his claims, it was announced Friday. The physicist published his views two weeks ago in the book "9/11 and American Empire: Intellectuals Speak Out." Former Reagan aide Barbara Honegger is a senior military-affairs journalist at the Naval Postgraduate School in California. She's convinced, based on her freelance research, that a bomb went off about six minutes before an airplane hit the Pentagon — or didn't hit it, as some believe the case may be. Then there's Morgan O. Reynolds, appointed by George W. Bush as chief economist at the Labor Department. He left in 2002 and doesn't think much of his former boss. "Who did it? Elements of our government and M-16 and the Mossad. The government's case is a laugh-out-loud proposition. They used patsies and lies and subterfuge and there's no way that Bush and Cheney could have invaded Iraq without the help of 9/11," Reynolds asserts. They are cantankerous and sometimes distrust each other — who knows where the double agents lurk? But unreasonable questions resonate with the reasonable. Colleen Kelly's brother, a salesman, had breakfast at the Windows on the World restaurant on Sept. 11. After he died she founded September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows to oppose the Iraq war. She lives in the Bronx and gives a gingerly embrace to the conspiracy crowd. "Sometimes I listen to them and I think that's sooooo outlandish and bizarre," she says. "But that day had such disastrous geopolitical consequences. If David Ray Griffin asks uncomfortable questions and points out painful discrepancies, good for him." Griffin's book, "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11," sold more than 100,000 copies and became a movement founding stone. Last year he traveled through New England, giving speeches. One evening in West Hartford, Conn., 400 mostly middle-aged and upper-middle-class doctors and lawyers, teachers and social workers sat waiting. Griffin took the podium and laid down his ideas with calm and cool. He concluded: "It is already possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt one very important thing: The destruction of the World Trade Center was an inside job, orchestrated by domestic terrorists. The welfare of our republic and perhaps even the survival of our civilization depend on getting the truth about 9/11 exposed." The audience rose and applauded for more than a minute. No patience Chip Berlet, senior analyst at Political Research Associates, a Boston-based left-leaning think tank, is no fan of the 9/11 Commission. He believes a serious investigation should have led to indictments and the firing of incompetent generals and civilian officials. But he has no patience with the conspiracy theorists. "They don't do their homework; it's a kind of charlatanism," says Berlet. "They say there's no debris on the lawn in front of the Pentagon, but they base their analysis on a photo on the Internet. That's like analyzing an impressionist painting by looking at a postcard. "I love 'The X-Files' but I don't base my research on it. My vision of hell is having to review these [conspiracy] books over and over again." In the days after Sept. 11, experts claimed temperatures reached 2,000 degrees on the upper floors. Others claimed steel melted. Nope. What happened, says Eager, the MIT materials-science professor, is that jet fuel sloshed around and beams got rubbery. "It's not too much to think that you could have some regions at 900 degrees and others at 1,200 degrees, and that will distort the beams." The truth movement doesn't really care for Eager. A Web site casts a fisheye of suspicion at the professor and his colleagues. "Did the MIT have prior knowledge?" notes one chat room. "This is for sure another speculative topic ... " Professsor Jones' suspension was reported Friday by The Associated Press. Peter Knight was quoted by McClatchy Newspapers.
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#284. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#270)
(b) Limitations. A commercial pilot's license is not a learner's permit. A commercial pilot license does authorize a pilot to be a pilot in command for a sinble aircraft engine - remember saying he couldn't even fly a single engine airplnane, huh? - and a co pilot on a multi pilot aircraft. Once again, contrary to your claims, you are WRONG, and once again you try to move the goalposts after your statement is debunked. Additional type certifications can and are completed on ground school, simulators and other methods than getting direct instruction from a right seater. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't have to say anything. I post links that blow your theories to hell.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since I have been posting here I can't recall even one time when Cynicom was ever vulgar to anyone. Not saying he hasn't been but that I haven't seen it (and I doubt he has been).
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. AG's and buck's strategy is to hurl rocks and bricks at their victims, then when their victim punches each one of the them in the face, they cry foul and say "see", he started it. Like much of what they do it is the classic signature of a Disinformation Operative - whether they work for the government, a PR firm, or are simply weak minded enough to believe uncategorically every utterance of a government PR Flack or talking head in the controlled media, or "The Less Than Amazing Randi" (who likely is part of CIA's Operation Mockingbird). Here are a few of their favorite things: Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation The point FL was making i.e., the constant whining about name calling etc., the very tactic they constantly use in attempting to degrade and upset anyone not supporting the "Official Conspiracy Theory™". Another constant ploy - regardless of the firmness and references supporting a datum they will deny it extists etc., .... Done all the time by the Liar's Movement as they are constantly seeking to create confusion with superficially logical sounding objections - which upon closer examination fall apart. Routine for them. Taking one fact, again the Commercial Pilot's License serves as an example. Taking the fact that Hanjour/Hanjoor had somehow managed to get a Commercial license reasoning backwards he becomes an honorary member of Baron Von Richtoften's Flying Circurs and a wizard behind controls of a size and type of plane which he had never flown. They do this all the time by using their pre-written cut and paste counter arguments either from "debunker" web sites or from, I presume, a cut and paste file of counters that have been developed over time to attack points of the arguments favoring complicity at the highest levels. While they do not do this directly or personally they do rely upon it as the pool of key witnesses who have testified to evidence directly contradictory to the "Official Fairy Tale™" start dying e.g., Barry Jennings. This one is thrown out under cover on a frequent basis - such as attempting to divert from the evidence that Hanjour was an incompetent pilot by shouting that he had a Commercial Pilot Certificate and then acting as if somehow that conveyed the ability to do aerobatics in a Jumbo Jet.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Hey buck, blame your pal if this thread get's locked, not your victims. I am posing a very basic question of whether obscene commentary is considered as vulgar as saying "fuck" especially when saying "fuck" is a direct response to said obscene commentary. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't recall Cynicom ever being vulgar either. I do recall Cynicom being offended by my language on posts and, of course, I apologized. Out of respect, I toned down on any language Cyni wouldn't approve of within our exchanges. What Cyni wants........Cyni gets. We didn't have any failure to communicate. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
Out of all those they do #9 best. Lots of practice I reckon.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. What Cyni wants........Cyni gets. We didn't have any failure to communicate. : ) I try to post in such a manner that I would not be ashamed for my mother or sister to read the things I post.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I am asking him a question that includes the f-word. I am not calling him anything. You are making a pathetic excuse trying to claim victim status for past exchanges you have started and which I formerly chose to respond my way, not yours. You are off topic and lose.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- deleted
The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.
THAT'S NOT THE POINT. Cyni finds foul language offensive. Do you think you can grasp that simple concept and show some respect for other posters on this forum? Nobody is playing victim save yourself. Show some respect for posters who do not engage in foul language. If you had a shred of decency you would step up and apologize to Cyni.....but we both know you don't. You never fail to demonstrate how disgusting self centered and ego centric can be.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
(b) Limitations. A commercial pilot's license is not a learner's permit. A commercial pilot license does authorize a pilot to be a pilot in command for a sinble aircraft engine - remember saying he couldn't even fly a single engine airplnane, huh? - and a co pilot on a multi pilot aircraft. Once again, contrary to your claims, you are WRONG, and once again you try to move the goalposts after your statement is debunked. Additional type certifications can and are completed on ground school, simulators and other methods than getting direct instruction from a right seater. How charming. Caught in your disinformational inflation of Hanjour's/Hanjoor's abilities and qualifications as a pilot you are now trying to wiggle out of the trap of your own devising. As far as flying a Jet Airliner a Commercial Pilot's Certificate IS a Learner's Permit. It does not convey a license to fly a multi-engine Jumbo Jet using a Pilot and Co-Pilot. The most it conveys, and only if someone is willing to hire him for it (HA!) is to sit in the Co-Pilot's seat. And the evidence and record of testimony is quite clear - HE WAS TURNED DOWN THREE TIMES on the rental of a single engine Cessna 172 because in the opinion of the instructor checking him out he was not capable enough to fly it alone. Twist and turn as you might that is documented in testimony. As for any other certifications there is nothing in evidence showing that he had any. I presume you have something which documents any other certifications (saving a single engine VFR license which he had to have prior to the botched Commercial Certification)? I didn't think so. We have been over and over and over this territory. Hanjoor/Hanjour has been repeatedly characterized in testimony, and in interviews, as INCOMPETENT as a pilot, your cavils and quibbles and diversions do not change that FACT. "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Evidently you've never heard my mother or sister when they're really pissed off. :-)
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
No, I haven't.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Wow, did everybody see that fire in that window? I know it was hard to see, and many times you couldn't see it at all, but if the camera was moved just right you could see a fire in one of the windows! Golly gee, I guess that caused a 47 story building to come straight down. Maybe they should have made the building better and able to withstand hurricane force winds. Oh, but they did build it to withstand hurricane force winds. LOL! Again you have nothing but a puff of smoke and a trash can fire. That is not evidence supporting the collapse of a 47 story steel framed building.
God is always good!
Wrong as usual. A "Learners Permit" is an off-the-wall goofball term you have just invented to try to avoid being wrong on claiming that Hanjour was not a pilot. There is no such term in aviation as a "Learners Permit." The correct license for a "Learner's Permit" is called a "Student Pilot" which Hanjour was clearly not at the time. He was authorized as a pilot in command in a Single Engine Aircraft, and a Co- Pilot in Multi Engine Aircraft. The fact that he may have been required to take additional type class training, such as operating landing gear or operating a seaplane for Single Engine, or being type certified for Multi Engine, does not take away from his pilot status. You are debunked and pwned. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So you want to see more fires? Keep jumping around from wanting to see structural to wanting to see fires - whatever is not shown that's where you want to shift the discussion to?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Still engaging in evading the point I see. I am not going to mince details and join you in hair-splitting. Hanjour/Hanjoor was by all credible evidence INCOMPETENT as a pilot, who spoke broken English (thus making his Commercial Certificate, to say the least, questionable). Why don't you argue the point with the author of this article: Al-Qaeda's Top Gun ... - after all he only included fifty-some odd foot notes. I am sure you can find a few microscopic points to distort and quibble over.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
This seems to be such an inconvenient question that ultimately buckles and AGitprop supposedly put me on their filter. LOL !
No, that was the One Meridien Plaza Fire, burned for not 18 minutes or even 80 minutes but EIGHTEEN HOURS. And it didn't fall. hmmm. Maybe it was this one? No, not that one either. That was The First Interstate Bank Fire (Los Angeles). Burned for 3 and 1/2 hours. Didn't fall down. (In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans.) Maybe this is the one. No, foiled again. Despite being a much longer lasting fire and obviously far more extensive The Beijing Mandarin Oriental Hotel didn't get tired and fall down.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. I have never said Hanjour was a good pilot. It is your need to call Hanjour an alleged good pilot, so you can then claim that showing he was not a good pilot, disproves he was a hijacker. I have repeatedly and consistently said Hanjour was a marginal pilot who let his airplane get away from him and ended up hitting a reinforced, mostly empty, part of the Pentagon that did little or no damage to US interests, at an oblique angle which did not even maximize the possible damage from the impact. As the flight school instructors state explicitly, Hanjour had trouble on takeoffs and landings and English, none of which he needed to do, but nevertheless they had no doubt that he did know enough to take over an airplane mid flight and crash it. Consistent with the Half Truther MO, you ignore that section of the flight school interview. At the time of impact Hanjour's aircraft was banking with the starboard engine hitting the 2nd story and the port engine hitting barely above the ground. This was not a "precision pilot maneuver." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oakland Bridge Steel Melts from Gasoline Tanker Fire ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're the one who keeps shifting the goalposts and making up goofball definitions. Hanjour was a marginal pilot. But he was a licensed pilot. His reviewers at the private flight school correctly saw his marginality and refused to put their own aircraft on the line renting to him. Good for them. However they explicitly and clearly say he was capable of taking over a hijacked plane and crashing it. That is the only "qualification" that is relevant for Hanjour. He did not need to speak English, he did not need to take off, and he did not need to land. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL! Have I made any such claim? No. Can you even prove he was on the airplane? No. It is simply one datum among many that taken together make the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" uncredible. While you will not admit it as such what has been demonstrated is that Hanjour/Hanjoor was NOT a competent pilot. That one datum becomes significant when compared against datums of comparable magnitude such as the very tight and skilled maneuvers which Flight 77 went through in its approach on the Pentagram. As well it was a demonstration that whoever was flying that plane knew how to navigate and operate the avionics on a 757. As well is the datum that the one spot on the Pentagram that was hit was the one guaranteed to do the least physical damage while "coincidentally" destroying records, and killing people, who were undertaking an audit to locate the 2.3 TRILLION dollars that disappeared under Dov Zakheim's watch. Just a few of the funny "coincidences" eh? Amazing how many coincidences occurred that day - like the "coincidence" of the 5 Dancing Israelis filming and high fiving over the collapse of the Twin Towers. All kinds of little coincidences. Just like the amazing coincidence that the surveillance cameras for all 4 airline boarding ramps "malfunctioned", or that NONE of the 8 pilots on 4 aircraft tapped out the 4 digit hijack code, or transmitted anything indicating something was amiss. Amazing coincidences. You are simply trying to isolate on that one datum while avoiding how it fits into the larger picture as one datum among many. You are, as usual, engaging in a disinformation tactic and attempting to make of that one datum, among many, Mt. Everest. I have achieved what I set out to do - illustrate how you were engaging in dissembling and disinformation. And it should be clear to anyone, except a paid shill, that Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor was not capable of performing the observed maneuvers of Flight 77.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
No, not debunked. A four story building is not a high rise and wasn't made with with special high-strength steel like the WTC towers were. The WTC towers were made to handle 2000% more than their stated load bearing capacity. All high rises are over engineered on purpose. That's why none of them have ever come down due to fires. The WTC towers didn't come down due to fires either, they were demolished floor by floor.
God is always good!
Have I made any such claim? No. Can you even prove he was on the airplane? I know it's hard to keep track of your lies when you contantly have to change your story, but it's all there on the server and readily searchable. Not only did you say Hanjour didn't have a license, you said he was supposed to have flown an airplane on the level of the Red Baron. That is simply one version of events by people who were not present and did not carefully track the movements of the craft on its way to crashing into rear parking-lot facing wall of an empty section of the Pentagon. By all credible accounts and testimony from people who actually knew him, and were qualified to judge, Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot and to such a degree that he was turned down for rental of a single engine Cessna. And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane.), Get real. Original_Intent posted on 2010-07-21 14:28:40 ET ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That is the only "qualification" that is relevant for Hanjour. He did not need to speak English, he did not need to take off, and he did not need to land. I do so love your logic chopping and unsupported assertions and conclusions. Being able to crash an aircraft does not mean being able to navigate an aircraft nor does it imply the ability to maneuver the aircraft through some very sophisticated maneuvers. These are all things which are not evidenced in any of the records on Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor. Any incompetent can crash an aircraft, however it takes somewhat more skill than any ever evidenced by Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor to crash it precisely into a predetermined spot. And so we can see from the observed events qualifications required which were not, and are not, in evidence as being among those held by the desultory student pilot, and incompetent pilot which all credible accounts show Mr. Hanjour/Hanjoor to be. As for the last that is simply a Red Herring intended to draw people off the scent. It is added inapplicable data. Whether he could take off or land is irrelevant in assessing whether he was known to have the skills necessary to perform the maneuvers observed in the flight, approach, and aerobatic performance of Flight 77 as it bypassed an easy straight on approach on one side of the Pentagon, housing all of the Brass, and then went through a series of tightly controlled maneuvers evidencing a high degree of skill and homed in on the one spot guaranteed to do the least damage and get rid of the most inconvenient audit records - along with the auditors. Again you have been tried in the balance and found wanting.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
You don't "tap out" transponder code 7500. You set it to that frequency and keep it running. All hijackers turned off the transponders immediately. They took the pilots by surprise, and knew the hijacking procedure from their own training. Any fast moves by the pilots and I guarantee they would have had their throats slashed immediately. This is what the hijackers were trained to do. The moment the hijackers turned off transponders the aircraft became almost impossible to track among the thousands of aircraft in the airspace which had their transponders on. You are just as full of it on your goofball theories of how transponders work as you are on your claims that the pilots couldn't navigate, when all they ahd to do was punch 4 digits into a VORTAC/DME receiver, which would instantly tell them not only heading and course deviation from their target, but also distance in nautical miles. That would be showing you're an aviation ignoramus who makes things up instead of researches facts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As John McCain can verify.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic. Show me any evidence evidence of that, then explain how everybody else in the Mother of All Conspiracies has not come forward, but "they" had to whack the Bean Counters. You continue your uninterrupted fabrication of pure bullfeather accounts originating in your own head and nowhere else.. Since it is incumbent on the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and failing that, the case is dismissed, it is you who is found wanting. As usual you make windy grandiose proclamations which only show how lacking you yourself are in basic fact researching, logic, or analytical abilities. Especially pertaining to aviation and structural engineering. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 9/11 Un-debunked Version 2.0: The First Steel Framed High-Rise Fire Collapses
Irrelevant. Steel beams have melted from fuel fires, although no one is making that claim with WTC. The claim is made that the WTC fires warped the steel, which happens at far lower temperatures than is needed to melt the steel. Steel framed buildings have also collapsed due to fire before the WTC buildings collapsed. So claims that steel buildings can't collapse from fires are similarly false. You lose on both counts. Quibbling about this building or that building does not invalidate fires melting and weakening steel, or steel buildings collapsing from uncontrolled fires burning inside thetm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Show me any evidence evidence of that, then explain how everybody else in the Mother of All Conspiracies has not come forward, but "they" had to whack the Bean Counters. You continue your uninterrupted fabrication of pure bullfeather accounts originating in your own head and nowhere else.. Since it is incumbent on the prosecution to prove its case beyond a reasonable doubt, and failing that, the case is dismissed, it is you who is found wanting. As usual you make windy grandiose proclamations which only show how lacking you yourself are in basic fact researching, logic, or analytical abilities. This coming from someone that pings Turtle and buckeroo to most of his posts. lol AGAviator, this is not a court of law and if it was and not a corrupt one, you'd have been kicked out long ago.
The claim is false.
Show any evidence whatsoever for the claim and cut down your irrelevant asides about people.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no evidence for the claim. That's what makes it false.
You are becoming truly amusing. The more frantic you get at splitting hairs the more obvious it becomes that you are trying to do so and in so doing attempting to create a false picture in the mind of anyone reading this thread. First, as a bit of aside, it seems that it is not within the scope of your intellect to conceive that anyone could look at a set of facts and draw a conclusion beyond that which you are trying to dictate. LOL! No, if someone draws a conclusion different from the one you are trying to force on them of course they have to be lying. Spare me. And I stand by the comment. As we both know from the evidence introduced that Hanjour was so incompetent that at one point his instructors and I quote: "...As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43..." Source : Al-Qaeda's Top Gun Also from the same article: "...Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business." 38 Given that, as you indirectly admit that Hanjour/Hanjoor had a poor command of English, and a good command of English is one of the requirements for licensing, it is eminently questionable as to how he was able to secure one at all when that is taken in combination with his known incompetence behind the stick of an aircraft. "One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
A white paper on the structure of the Twin Towers carried out by the firm of Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson contained eleven numbered points, including: Glanz and Lipton summarize the findings of the white paper: A telegraph from the architectural firm Richard Roth, partner at Emery Roth & Sons, was distributed to reporters on February 14, 1965. The telegraph was in response to claims by real estate baron and Lawrence Wien that the design of the Twin Towers was unsound. The Engineering News Record (ENR) contained a number of articles on the design and construction of the World Trade Center. The article "How Columns Will Be Designed for 110-Story Buildings" quotes lead architect John Skilling: You must admit though that he is quite amusing. Each time one of his split hairs is swept off the table he either denies it or invents a new one. He is rather inventive in a dull and plodding Plow Horse kind of way.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#285. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#272)
You have nothing to say against the fact that WTC 7 was a controlled demolition
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#286. To: abraxas, Cynicom (#278)
The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#287. To: FormerLurker, abraxas, christine, IRTorqued, wudidiz, Cadet D, Eric Stratton, RickyJ, Kamala, AllTheKingsHorses, farmfriend, Critter, HOUNDDAWG, Anyone Who Cares About the Truth, all (#280)
The lot of us are calling bovine excrement on your victim routine and your complete lack of civility to people like Cyni who have done NOTHING to deserve your filth.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
12. Enigmas have no solution. Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to loose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic which forbears any actual material fact.
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions. This requires creative thinking unless the crime was planned with contingency conclusions in place.
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses. If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.
17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can 'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
#288. To: FormerLurker, blockquote (#275)
Likes like AG is DETERMINED to pull this thread down into the gutter, no matter WHAT.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#289. To: James Deffenbach, cynicom (#286)
Since I have been posting here I can't recall even one time when Cynicom was ever vulgar to anyone. Not saying he hasn't been but that I haven't seen it (and I doubt he has been).
#290. To: Original_Intent (#287)
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#291. To: abraxas (#289)
I don't recall Cynicom ever being vulgar either. I do recall Cynicom being offended by my language on posts and, of course, I apologized. Out of respect, I toned down on any language Cyni wouldn't approve of within our exchanges.
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#292. To: abraxas, cynicom, buckeroo (#278)
Why are you speaking to Cyni like that? He has never been vulgar in any way to you. Not once. What will your feeble excuse be this time since "he did it first" won't work?
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#293. To: AGAviator (#288)
#294. To: AGAviator, Cynicom (#292)
I am not calling him anything.
#295. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, christine, wudidiz, abraxas, Critter, IRTorqued, all (#284)
From your own link:
#296. To: James Deffenbach, abraxas (#291)
(Edited)
I try to post in such a manner that I would not be ashamed for my mother or sister to read the things I post.
#297. To: Original_Intent (#296)
Evidently you've never hear my mother or sister when they're really pissed off. :-)
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#298. To: AGAviator (#285)
(Edited)
#299. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#295)
(Edited)
As far as flying a Jet Airliner a Commercial Pilot's Certificate IS a Learner's Permit. It does not convey a license to fly a multi-engine Jumbo Jet using a Pilot and Co-Pilot.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#300. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#298)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#301. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#299)
#302. To: FormerLurker (#273)
Who is Barry Jennings ?
"If you love wealth more than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, depart from us in peace. We ask not your counsel nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains rest lightly upon you and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”—Samuel Adams 
#303. To: RickyJ (#298)
Wow, did everybody see that fire in that window?
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#304. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#295)
(Edited)
Hanjoor/Hanjour has been repeatedly characterized in testimony, and in interviews, as INCOMPETENT as a pilot
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#305. To: James Deffenbach (#303)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#306. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#301)
(Edited)
I am sure you can find a few microscopic points to distort and quibble over
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#307. To: James Deffenbach, RickyJ, buckeroo (#303)
(Edited)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#308. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#304)
It is your need to call Hanjour an alleged good pilot, so you can then claim that showing he was not a good pilot, disproves he was a hijacker.
#309. To: AGAviator (#307)
#310. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#308)
It is your need to call Hanjour an alleged good pilot, so you can then claim that showing he was not a good pilot, disproves he was a hijacker. LOL!
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#311. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#306)
However they explicitly and clearly say he was capable of taking over a hijacked plane and crashing it.
#312. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#308)
Just like the amazing coincidence that the surveillance cameras for all 4 airline boarding ramps "malfunctioned", or that NONE of the 8 pilots on 4 aircraft tapped out the 4 digit hijack code, or transmitted anything indicating something was amiss. Amazing coincidences
I have achieved what I set out to do
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#313. To: Original_Intent (#311)
Any incompetent can crash an aircraft,
Lord Acton
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace
#314. To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle (#311)
(Edited)
And get rid of the most inconvenient audit records - along with the auditors.
Again you have been tried in the balance and found wanting.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#315. To: RickyJ, AGAviator, all (#309)
No, not debunked. A four story building is not a high rise and wasn't made with with special high-strength steel like the WTC towers were. The WTC towers were made to handle 2000% more than their stated load bearing capacity. All high rises are over engineered on purpose. That's why none of them have ever come down due to fires. The WTC towers didn't come down due to fires either, they were demolished floor by floor.
We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning so far
#316. To: RickyJ, turtle, buckeroo (#309)
(Edited)
A four story building is not a high rise and wasn't made with with special high-strength steel like the WTC towers were.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#317. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator, Turtle, buckeroo (#314)
To: Original_Indent, buckeroo, turtle
And get rid of the most inconvenient audit records - along with the auditors.
Again you have been tried in the balance and found wanting.
We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning
#318. To: AGAviator, RickyJ (#316)
The claim is made that the WTC fires warped the steel
We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning
#319. To: wudidiz (#317)
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#320. To: AGAviator (#319)
Show any evidence whatsoever for the claim
We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning
#321. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#310)
(Edited)
By all credible accounts and testimony from people who actually knew him, and were qualified to judge, Hanjour was incompetent as a pilot and to such a degree that he was turned down for rental of a single engine Cessna. And you want us to believe, on the strength of a possibly forged or bought Pilot's Certificate (for which you can show no background or training to merit that he could fly a 757 the way the Red Baron flew a Fokker Triplane.)
#322. To: AGAviator, RickyJ, Christine, Original_Intent, HOUNDDAWG, all (#318)
Design Claims
Worthington, Skilling, Helle & Jackson White Paper
--City in the Sky, p 131 The Vierendeel trusses would be so effective, according to the engineers' calculations, that all the columns on one side of a tower could be cut, as well as the two corners and several columns on the adjacent sides, and the tower would still be strong enough to withstand a 100-mile-per-hour wind.
--City in the Sky, p 133 The Richard Roth Telegram
THE STRUCTURAL ANALYSIS CARRIED OUT BY THE FIRM OF WORTHINGTON, SKILLING, HELLE & JACKSON IS THE MOST COMPLETE AND DETAILED OF ANY EVER MADE FOR ANY BUILDING STRUCTURE. THE PRELIMINARY CALCULATIONS ALONE COVER 1,200 PAGES AND INVOLVE OVER 100 DETAILED DRAWINGS.
...
4. BECAUSE OF ITS CONFIGURATION, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY THAT OF A STEEL BEAM 209' DEEP, THE TOWERS ARE ACTUALLY FAR LESS DARING STRUCTURALLY THAN A CONVENTIONAL BUILDING SUCH AS THE EMPIRE STATE BUILDING WHERE THE SPINE OR BRACED AREA OF THE BUILDING IS FAR SMALLER IN RELATION TO ITS HEIGHT.
...
5. THE BUILDING AS DESIGNED IS SIXTEEN TIMES STIFFER THAN A CONVENTIONAL STRUCTURE. THE DESIGN CONCEPT IS SO SOUND THAT THE STRUCTURAL ENGINEER HAS BEEN ABLE TO BE ULTRA-CONSERVATIVE IN HIS DESIGN WITHOUT ADVERSELY AFFECTING THE ECONOMICS OF THE STRUCTURE. ...
--City in the Sky, p 134-6 Engineering News Record
"live loads on these [perimeter] columns can be increased more than 2000% before failure occurs."
--John Skilling, in Engineering News Record, 4/2/1964
We're alien hybrids - the apex of my learning
#323. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, FormerLurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, IRTorqued, Critter, all (#317)
AGAviator, this is not a court of law and if it was and not a corrupt one, you'd have been kicked out long ago.
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