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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: WikiLeaks Reveals Al Qaeda Boss Was Seen at Village Meetings - Despite CIA Claims They Were Clueless
Source: Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... den-seen-village-meetings.html
Published: Jul 28, 2010
Author: Mail Foreign Service
Post Date: 2010-07-28 15:17:40 by AGAviator
Keywords: None
Views: 4832
Comments: 280

Glimpses of Bin Laden: Now WikiLeaks reveals Al Qaeda boss was seen at village meetings - despite CIA claims that they were clueless

By Mail Foreign Service

Last updated at 10:16 AM on 27th July 2010

Bin Laden spotted in meeting with Taliban chief in 2006
Al Qaeda boss 'had hand' in plot to poison UK troops
Secret files claim British soldiers shot 16 children
Military experts: leaks could put our troops in peril
Taliban missile brought down Chinook helicopter

'Spotted': Among 91,000 leaked U.S. documents are claims that Osama Bin Laden was last seen in 2006

Secret files leaked about the war in Afghanistan have revealed tantalising glimpses of Osama Bin Laden despite public CIA claims that they are clueless as to the whereabouts of the Al Qaeda boss.

The claims are among 91,000 U.S. military records obtained by whistleblowing website WikiLeaks.

Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, said last month that there have been no firm leads on Bin Laden's whereabouts since the 'early 2000s'.

But a 'threat report' from the International Security Assistance Force regional command (north) on suicide bombers in August 2006 suggested Bin Laden had been attending regular meetings in villages on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

It said: 'Reportedly a high-level meeting was held where six suicide bombers were given orders for an operation in northern Afghanistan. These meetings take place once every month.'

According to the Guardian, which has received the documents, the report went on: 'The top four people in these meetings are Mullah Omar [the Taliban leader], Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Dadullah and Mullah [Baradar].'

If true, it could mean forces came close to having the opportunity to wipe out the senior leadership of the Afghan insurgency that has so far claimed the lives of 320 British soldiers.

The war logs also show that Bin Laden had a hand in a plot to poison coalition forces by adding a powder to food and drink consumed by troops as they passed through villages.

Toll: An Afghan girl in hospital in Helmand after being injured by coalition forces in an air strike in 2007

These documents also suggest coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in so-called 'blue on white' incidents which were never reported.

IS THIS SOLDIER BEHIND LEAKS?
This fresh-faced soldier could be responsible for leaking a massive file of secret military documents revealing chilling details of the Afghanistan war and civilian deaths.

The leak is said to be U.S. Army intelligence expert Bradley Manning, 22, who boasted he had downloaded hundreds of thousands of documents, according to computer hacker Adrian Lamo.

The 22-year-old, pictured above, is said to have contacted Lamo out of the blue and then claimed he had saved high-security files onto CDs, ready to hand to Wikileaks, while pretending to listen to Lady Gaga.

'Hillary Clinton and several thousand diplomats around the world are going to have a heart attack when they wake up one morning and find an entire repository of classified foreign policy is available, in searchable format, to the public,' he apparently told Mr Lamo.

The hacker got in touch with the U.S. military and later met with them in Starbucks to hand over a printout of his conversations with Manning.

Manning has already been charged over a separate leak of a classified helicopter cockpit video earlier this month.

It showed U.S. soldiers laughing as they gunned down Afghan civilians and two journalists in a firefight in Baghdad in 2007.

He was picked up in Iraq, where he was working.

Manning is said to be locked up in a military prison after being shipped across the border to Kuwait.

He faces trial by court martial and, if found guilty, a heavy jail sentence.

Mr Lamo believes Manning did not work alone, saying he did not have ‘the technological expertise’ to carry out the gathering and leaking of the documents.

'I believe somebody would have had to have been of assistance to him,’ he said.

They include claims that 16 children were among those shot or bombed in error by British troops.

The leaked military logs also reveal how a secret 'black' unit of crack special forces hunt down Taliban leaders for 'kill or capture' without trial - and voice concerns that Pakistani intelligence and Iran are supporting the insurgents.

Downing Street said it 'would lament all unauthorised releases of classified material' and the White House condemned the ' irresponsible' leak of the files.

And military and intelligence experts warned yesterday that the leaks could imperil the lives of British forces in Afghanistan.

Colonel Stuart Tootal, who in 2006 commanded 3rd Battalion Parachute Regiment in Helmand Province - where more than 320 UK soldiers have been killed - said the information 'could impact on the security of our soldiers'.

He insisted Nato forces now put a 'huge emphasis' on avoiding civilian casualties.

Tory MP Patrick Mercer, a former Army captain, said: 'Although much of this information is in the public domain, the details are particularly damaging to the credibility of the coalition.

'Our enemies will be quick to exploit the propaganda element of it.

'If there are details of operational matters - locations, equipment, troops movements, resources - then soldiers' lives could be placed at risk.'

Details of the secret files, detailing military operations between 2004 and 2009, were published yesterday by the Guardian, New York times and Germany's Der Spiegel while more than 75,000 records were made available on the WikiLeaks website.

The files list 144 incidents involving Afghan civilian casualties, in which 195 died and 174 were injured.

They detail coalition forces - fearful of suicide bombers - shooting unarmed drivers and civilian motorcyclists, and record an incident when French troops opened fire at a bus full of children because it came too close to a military convoy.

Other leaked documents record a U.S. patrol machine-gunning a bus, killing or wounding 15 passengers, and Polish troops mortaring a village, killing a wedding party including a pregnant woman.

They reveal details of undercover operations by a U.S. special forces unit named task Force 373, formed to hunt down and kill or capture taliban and Al Qaeda commanders.

According to Julian Assange, the founder of the website, the files contain details of 'thousands' of potential war crimes.

At a press conference in London, he defended his decision to publish the files and claimed the high level of civilian casualties reported was in fact lower than the true figure because military personnel 'downplayed' the number or reported them as insurgent deaths.

Mr Assange said: 'We have tried hard to make sure that this material does not put innocents at harm.

'All the material is over seven months old so it is of no current operational consequence, even though it may be of very significant investigative consequence.

'The revelation of abuse by the U.S. and coalition forces may cause Afghans to be upset, and rightly so.

‘If governments don't like populations being upset, they should treat them better, not conceal abuses.'

Professor Malcolm Chalmers, a defence expert at the Royal United Services Institute think tank, said that the leaks could undermine already faltering public support for the war.

Read more: Bin Laden Seen Village Meetings


Poster Comment:

There has never been any proof that Bin Laden has died or been killed. He has repeatedly been reported to be in a very rugged area surrounded by people fiercely loyal to him.

OBL is not and has never been in direct command of operations. He sees himself as someone providing motivation and logistical support to people actually carrying out day to day operations.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 272.

#2. To: AGAviator (#0)

Osama died in 2001. The man is dead. Please do not bother replying.

Horse  posted on  2010-07-28   15:41:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Horse (#2) (Edited)

Claims need to be supported and sourced.

Wikileaks has tens of thousands of facts they have published vetted and researched, which were previously unknown.

Conspiracy theorists claiming "Obama died in 2001" have nothing.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   15:44:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: AGAviator (#3)

Claims need to be supported and sourced.

Yes, so where is the supporting evidence that bin Laden really is still alive?

That was more than likely planted info, perhaps the biggest reason the "leaks" occured in the first place.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   15:56:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: FormerLurker (#5)

Claims need to be supported and sourced.

Yes, so where is the supporting evidence that bin Laden really is still alive?

That was more than likely planted info, perhaps the biggest reason the "leaks" occured in the first place.

Always look for the wheels within wheels. Yes, Bin Laden has likely been dead since somewhere around Dec. 2001 to Jan. 2002.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   16:27:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator (#10) (Edited)

Always look for the wheels within wheels. Yes, Bin Laden has likely been dead since somewhere around Dec. 2001 to Jan. 2002.

So you and Lurker both think that a)the leaks were planned so that b) planted info suggesting that OBL was still alive would c) be reason enough( despite the fact there were other very damaging to the war effort revelations ) for gubment to justify to the grass eaters that the Afghan War was still a necessary thingy to pursue?

Hmmmm...interesting theory...especially since most of the damaging revelations appear to involve US and coalition forces plugging innocent Afghan civilians who the grass eaters by and large could care less about....

scrapper2  posted on  2010-07-28   16:46:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: scrapper2, FormerLurker (#12)

Always look for the wheels within wheels. Yes, Bin Laden has likely been dead since somewhere around Dec. 2001 to Jan. 2002.

So you and Lurker both think that a)the leaks were planned so that b) planted info suggesting that OBL was still alive would c) be reason enough( despite the fact there were other very damaging to the war effort revelations ) for gubment to justify to the grass eaters that the Afghan War was still a necessary thingy to pursue?

Hmmmm...interesting theory...especially since most of the damaging revelations appear to involve US and coalition forces plugging innocent Afghan civilians who the grass eaters by and large could care less about....

The intel people are perfectly capable of doing that. Assembling a package of information that is ultimately already known, and then planting disinfo in there. That way you get people accepting the disinfo because "it must be true it was leaked".

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   17:47:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Original_Intent (#22)

The intel people are perfectly capable of doing that. Assembling a package of information that is ultimately already known, and then planting disinfo in there. That way you get people accepting the disinfo because "it must be true it was leaked".

What bothers me about your BS posts is that you NEVER produce a serious FACT to support your own windy BS.. You are just a stinky poster, dude.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-28   17:52:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#23)

What bothers me about your BS posts is that you NEVER produce a serious FACT to support your own windy BS.. You are just a stinky poster, dude.

All you do here is insult people buck. You add nothing of value to a discussion, and appear to enjoy massive flame wars. It seems to be the ONLY reason you are here.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   22:55:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#43)

All you do here is insult people buck.

Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events.

I no longer trust either of your two respective posts, FL and O_I posts. Both of you are liars and deceitful POS.

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-29   0:05:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, christine (#48)

All you do here is insult people buck.

Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events.

I no longer trust either of your two respective posts, FL and O_I posts. Both of you are liars and deceitful POS.

What is your problem Buck?

A disagreement upon an issue means you have different points of view. Neither does being factually wrong on a point equate to a lie it means that I was wrong on a point. So far I have twice conceded your point that Hanjour did somehow manage to get a Commercial Pilot Certificate. Because I don't think he deserved it and was an incompetent pilot does raise legitimate questions on what circumstances prevailed for him to get that license. If you don't like my qualifications on the point - well, tough. Deal with it - I disagree that he was qualified to receive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. Deal with that. That is what all the facts indicate. His instructors repeatedly stated that as a professional opinion etc., .... So, a disagreement is NOT a lie - except perhaps in the buckieverse.

It does not mean someone is lying merely because they do not agree with you or drink the same flavor of kool-aid.

I do have to admit, and apologize, that I have been a little rough on you over the last couple of threads, but it is not like you did not provoke me. However, I'll try to be a good boy.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   0:46:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#54)

Deal with it - I disagree that he was qualified to receive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. Deal with that. That is what all the facts indicate. His instructors repeatedly stated that as a professional opinion etc., .... So, a disagreement is NOT a lie

And I've repeatedly said the issue is not whether he was a competent pilot, who must have a high standard to survive numerous danger factors intact, but a competent suicide hijacker, able to take over an already airborne craft, navigate it to a predetermined target, and crash it at high speeds into the target.

To which you've never given any satisfactory response.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   2:18:48 ET  (2 images) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: AGAviator (#59)

Your distinction is one without a difference. It is gobbledygook. It is not proven even that Hanjour was behind the stick and that is at best an unproven hypothesis. And the maneuvers that plane went through are well beyond any skill evidenced by Hanjour at any time on a type of aircraft which he was incompetent to fly, had never before flown, never trained on and in fact at no time had he ever flown ANY KIND of jet aircraft. Never in fact had he ever flown anything larger than a twin engine, propeller driven, 4 seat, Piper Apache, and by the testimony of his instructors who uniformly, without exception, characterized him as anywhere from barely able to fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 to unable to even safely fly that. Your confabulation of somehow supposing that he wanted to kill people so therefore he magically could fly belongs in the same category as "Peter Pan" it is, to put it kindly, balderash.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   2:36:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Original_Intent (#61) (Edited)

Your distinction is one without a difference. It is gobbledygook. It is not proven even that Hanjour was behind the stick and that is at best an unproven hypothesis. And the maneuvers that plane went through are well beyond any skill evidenced by Hanjour at any time on a type of aircraft which he was incompetent to fly, had never before flown, never trained on and in fact at no time had he ever flown ANY KIND of jet aircraft

You keep repeating the SOS with zero proof alleging any and all available evidence is wrong, without being able to supply anything sother than arm-waving denials of your own.

Repetition does not make proof except perhaps to you and a few self-hypnotized Six Percenters.

A 1/2 G descending turn is not even beyond the capability of a student pilot.

A holder of a commercial pilot certificate can become completely type certified using flight simulators.

Flight computer are made for safety and ease of use, not for difficulty.

More basic aircraft without flight computers are more difficult to fly and maneuver than aircraft provided with flight computers. This is why ATP pilots wishing to go out for rides in smaller single engine craft must frequently get retrained and why the Chief Instructor said that Hanjour's need for training was "not that unsusual" which as usual you leave out of your cut and pick quotes.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   6:23:00 ET  (2 images) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#99) (Edited)

You keep repeating the SOS with zero proof alleging any and all available evidence is wrong, without being able to supply anything sother than arm-waving denials of your own.

Why do you project your misdeeds onto others? You ignore any and all actual evidence, make things up as you go, such as your implied claim that a VORTAC navaid can read the pilot's mind and decide where he wants to go, and accuse US of being "k00ks".

You cling to your beliefs, which relies on various impossible and/or improbable feats, such as your belief that Hanjour could have flown a 757 jumbo jet like a master pilot even though he was a totally inept "pilot" who had serious problems controlling a single engine Cessna 172. You ignore the fact Flight 77's autopilot was engaged practically the entire flight, thus requiring the knowledge of how to correctly utilize the flight management computer onboard the 757, one which Hanjour had never seen before in his life.

Then you toss in this VORTAC distraction which has nothing to do with Flight 77 since the autopilot was engaged. You can't describe what a pilot would need to do to change the course on a Boeing 757 flight management computer with autopilot engaged, but try to sell the idea that ANYONE could do it, it's so simple, it has to be simple because YOU say so, yet YOU CAN'T describe how it's done.

One moment you try to sell the idea that Hanjour was a "qualified pilot" just because he somehow managed to "buy" his license, yet without exception, EVERY flight instructor who delt with him described him as totally incompetent, a bad pilot, a person who basically couldn't fly at all.

Yet you want us to believe that this person who couldn't even fly a proper circle around an airport and land a Cessna 172 was able to correctly utilize the flight management system onboard a 757, a cockpit he never sat in before in his life, disengage the autopilot near Washington, perform some precision descending turns, level off at treetop level while flying at 400 mph, then descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph in order to strike a 71 foot tall target.

All this without EVER flying a jet before in his life.

Uh huh, sure thing, we're the ones who ignore evidence, and you're the fountain of truth.

In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

And that IS EXACTLY what you've been doing here.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   12:07:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#111)

You cling to your beliefs, which relies on various impossible and/or improbable feats, such as your belief that Hanjour could have flown a 757 jumbo jet like a master pilot even though he was a totally inept "pilot" who had serious problems controlling a single engine Cessna 172

You continue to ignore the explicit quotes of the exact same person you base your k00ktales upon, where he says "There is no question" that Hanjour even though lacking adequate conventional piloting skills, nevertheless had sufficient controlling hijacked aircraft skills to take an aircraft over mid air and crash it into a target.

All your blather about flight computers, navigation, conventional piloting is nothing more than obfuscation of a simple and direct statement made by someone whom you yourself is choosing as a source: Hanjour was able to take over and crash a hijacked plane into the Pentagon.

Half Truther cherry picking at its worst.

As far as replying to all the other crap, like claiming not giving you a step by step description of how to disconnect a VORTAC from a FMS means something - when it's actually a bull$hit question because a VORTAC linked to a CDI works independently of the FMS - is not going to be addressed because you have nothing credible to go by yourself, and all you can do is nit pick on other people's accounts which actually have some research and subject matter expertise behind them.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   15:01:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: AGAviator, abraxas, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, ALL (#118) (Edited)

Since you continue to misrepresent the evidence and outright lie when you think you can get away with it, avoiding the actual reports concerning Hanjour's abilites (or rather lack of them), I'll post the news reports that you attempt to twist into the opposite of what they were meant to convey...


Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

by Jeremy R. Hammond / April 18th, 2010

Hani Hanjour is the hijacker who flew American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001, according to the official account of terrorist attacks. "The lengthy and extensive flight training obtained by Hani Hanjour throughout his years in the United States makes it reasonable to believe that he was the pilot of Flight 77 on September 11," concluded FBI Director Robert S. Mueller.1 The story is that while Hanjour had difficulties learning to fly at first, he persevered, overcame his obstacles, and became an extraordinary enough pilot to be able to precisely hit his target after performing a difficult flight maneuver.

The New York Times, for instance, asserted that "Mr. Hanjour overcame the mediocrity of his talents as a pilot and gained enough expertise to fly a Boeing 757 into the Pentagon."2 The Washington Post similarly suggested Hanjour had the requisite skills, reporting that "Federal records show that a Hani Hanjoor obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 with a rating to fly commercial jets."3

The 9/11 Commission expanded upon this narrative in its final report. It noted that Hanjour first came to the United States in 1991 to study English, then again in 1996 "to pursue flight training, after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia." In 1997, after returning to Arizona, he "began his flight training there in earnest. After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot’s license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April 1999."4

Subsequently, "Hanjour reportedly applied to the civil aviation school in Jeddah after returning home, but was rejected." By the end of 2000, Hanjour was back in the U.S. and "began refresher training at his old school, Arizona Aviation. He wanted to train on multi-engine planes, but had difficulties because his English was not good enough. The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001."5 A footnote in the report asserts that Hanjour was chosen specifically for targeting the Pentagon because he was "the operation’s most experienced pilot."6

John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well-conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.

As the Los Angeles Times ironically put it, "For someone suspected of steering a jetliner into the Pentagon, the 29- year-old man who used the name Hani Hanjour sure convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly."19

The Legend Unraveled

According to an FBI chronology for Hani Hanjour cited by the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour first travelled to the U.S. in 1991 on a visa issued in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor", in order to attend the University of Arizona’s Center for English as a Second Language. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he was again issued a visa at Jeddah in March, 1996. Back in the U.S., he attended classes at the ELS Language Center in Oakland, California from May until August. For a week in September, he took ground training lessons at the Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center (SAAATC). From the end of September until mid-October, he purchased flight instruction from Cockpit Resources Management (CRM) in Scottsdale, Arizona. He then returned to Saudi Arabia once more.20 The Washington Post reported that according to Hanjour’s brother, Yasser, "Hanjour applied for a job at the state- owned Saudi Arabian Airlines but was told that he lacked sufficient grades.... He said the company told him it would reconsider his application only if he acquired a commercial pilot’s license in the United States."21 Yasser characterized Hanjour "as a frustrated young Saudi who wanted desperately – but never succeeded – to become a pilot for the Saudi national airline."22

Hanjour made plans to return to the U.S. and was issued a third visa in Jeddah in November 1997. His visa application contained red flags that should have resulted in his visa being denied. He failed to write in the name and address of the school he would be attending and provided no proof, as required by law, that he could furnish financial support for himself.23 With that application accepted, he reentered the U.S. and took pilot training from CRM again in December.24

It was at this time that, according the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour began his training "in earnest". But in reality, while at CRM, Hanjour never finished coursework required to get his certificate to be able to fly a single-engine aircraft.25 The New York Times reported that "he was a lackadaisical student who often cut class and never displayed the passion so common among budding commercial airline pilots."26 ABC News reported that when he returned to CRM that December, "He was trying for his private pilot’s license", but according to one of his instructor’s, he "was a very poor student who skipped homework and missed flights."27 The school’s attorney said that when Hanjour reapplied again later in 2000, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn’t think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997."28 The school’s owner described him as a "weak student" who "was wasting our resources."29 He said, "One of the first accomplishments of someone in flight school is to fly a plane without an instructor. It is a confidence-building procedure. He managed to do that. That is like being able to pull a car out and drive down the street. It is not driving on the freeway." Although it normally took three months for students to earn their private pilot’s certificate, Hanjour "did not accomplish that at my school." He added, "We didn’t want him back at our school because he was not serious about becoming a good pilot."30 The Chicago Tribune reported that at CRM, "A flight instructor said Hanjour left an impression by being unimpressive. ‘He was making weak progress,’ said Duncan Hastie, president of CRM."31

Hanjour switched schools, and from the end of December 1997 until April 1999, took flight lessons from Arizona Aviation in Mesa, Arizona.24 There, too, the 9/11 Commission’s own evidence contradicts the characterization that Hanjour was training "in earnest". An FBI document cited by the Commission stated that "Hanjour often participated in flying lessons for a one to two weeks [sic] and then would disappear for weeks or months at a time." The school "often had to call Hanjour in an effort to get Hanjour to pay his bill."32

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32

In April 1998, Hanjour applied for his private pilot certificate with a single-engine rating, but he failed his test. One of the tasks documents show he would need to be reexamined for was "coordinated turns to headings"34 He tried again later that same month and this time received his private pilot certificate under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor," with an "Airplane Single Engine Land" rating.

In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin- engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single- engine Cessna and twin- engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39

Additionally, commercial pilot certification is different from the Airline Transport Pilot certification held by airline captains. To obtain a commercial certificate with a multi-engine rating, Hanjour only needed to log in 250 hours of flight time, whereas to obtain an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, pilots are required to log 1,500 hours.40 Needless to say, having the ability to control a Cessna 172 or Piper Apache propeller plane does not translate into the ability to handle a Boeing 757 jetliner – and Hanjour could barely do the former.

Anyone unfamiliar with pilot certification could easily make the mistake of thinking a "commercial pilot license" meant Hanjour was qualified to fly a jet airliner, a conclusion reinforced by the Washington Post’s false assertion that his certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets." The 9/11 Commission report reinforced that false impression, only vaguely hinting at the truth six paragraphs later by saying that Hanjour subsequently "wanted to train on multi- engine planes". But the Commission then further obfuscated that truth by asserting that this was merely "refresher" training (a matter to which we will return).

Hanjour again left the country on April 28, 1999.24 As the 9/11 Commission report observed, when he returned to Saudi Arabia to apply in the civil aviation school in Jeddah, he was rejected.24 He subsequently began making preparations to return to the U.S. once again.24 In September 2000, Hanjour was denied a student visa after indicating that he wanted to remain in the U.S. for three years, and yet listed no address for where he intended to stay in Arizona.23 But he tried again for a student visa under the name "Hani Hanjour" later that same month. This time, he wrote that he wanted to stay for one year instead of three, and listed a specific address in California, not Arizona, where he said he was going on his first application. Despite these obvious red flags, he was issued the visa.23

He entered the U.S. in December and took more flight lessons that month at Arizona Aviation. From February until mid-March, he attended Pan Am International Flight Academy, also known as Jet Tech International, in Mesa, Arizona.24

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi- engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43

As already discussed, it remains an open question whether Hanjour was actually qualified to hold his commercial pilot certificate. It was at this time, as the Associated Press reported, that "Federal aviation authorities were alerted in early 2001 that an Arizona flight school believed one of the eventual Sept. 11 hijackers lacked the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot’s license he already held, flight school and government officials say."44 The manager of JetTech said, "I couldn’t believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had."45

Whereas the 9/11 Commission suggested that, because he "persevered", Hanjour "completed the initial training", thus leading the public to the conclusion that his skills had advanced accordingly, the Times offered a very different account: "Ultimately administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex- employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. ‘He didn’t care about the fact that he couldn’t get through the course,’ the ex- employee said. Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. ‘I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,’ the former employee said. ‘He could not fly at all.’"43

Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46

According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45

As with the fact that multiple visa applications from Hanjour should have been denied, the 9/11 Commission made no mention of any of this. One would think that a commission tasked with investigating the events of 9/11 with the goal of assessing what went wrong and fixing the system to prevent any loss of life in the future would have looked into who issued Hanjour visas in Jeddah and why the red flags were ignored. One would think that misconduct from FAA officials and contractors that allowed a terrorist to improperly obtain certification to fly a plane would also not be outside of the purview of the investigation – yet the Commission's report is absolutely silent on this.

Turning to the footnote for the claim that Hanjour "completed" training at Jet Tech, one can read (emphasis added): "For his training at Pan Am International Flight Academy and completion by March 2001, see FBI report ‘Hijackers Timeline,’ Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 8, 2001, entries...)". But turning to that source, the FBI timeline does not state that Hanjour "completed" the training, only that he "ended" the course on March 16.47 The truth is that, as the Washington Post reported, "Hanjour flunked out after a month" at Jet Tech.12 Offering corroboration for that account, the Associated Press similarly reported that "Hanjour did not finish his studies at JetTech and left the school."48

The 9/11 Commission additionally noted that Hanjour had later gone to Air Fleet Training Systems in New Jersey and "requested to fly the Hudson Corridor" along the Hudson River, which passed the World Trade Center. He was permitted to fly the route once, "but his instructor declined a second request because of what he considered Hanjour’s poor piloting skills", the Commission admits. However, the report continues, "Shortly thereafter, Hanjour switched to Caldwell Flight Academy in Fairfield, New Jersey, where he rented small aircraft on several occasions during June and July. In one such instance on July 20, Hanjour – likely accompanied by Hazmi – rented a plane from Caldwell and took a practice flight from Fairfield to Gaithersburg, Maryland, a route that would have allowed them to fly near Washington, D.C. Other evidence suggests Hanjour may even have returned to Arizona for flight simulator training earlier in June."49

But here, the pattern of deception continues by omission of other relevant facts. The report does not explain that when Hanjour was permitted to fly the Hudson Corridor in May of 2001, unlike his subsequent rental flights, it was with an instructor on a check ride, and not a solo flight.24 By saying his instructor there "considered" Hanjour’s skills to be poor, the 9/11 Commission implied this was merely a subjective judgment, but that others considered him perfectly capable. Although it would have been a standard practice, there’s no indication from FBI records that Caldwell actually required him to go on a check ride before renting the plane. Even more significantly, the 9/11 Commission omitted altogether the fact that, while Hanjour was allowed to rent from Caldwell Flight Academy, he was rejected yet again by yet another school shortly thereafter that the record shows did require a check ride.

In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single- engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19

The deception does not end with this rather egregious omission. As noted, the 9/11 Commission also suggested that Hanjour obtained further training in a flight simulator, again, in an apparent attempt to exaggerate his training. But a review of the records shows that the preponderance of evidence indicates Hanjour was actually in New Jersey throughout the time period in question in June. FBI records show that on May 31, 2001, after having been rejected at Air Fleet Training Systems, Hanjour rented a Cessna 172 at Caldwell Flight Academy, where he "made an error taxing [sic] the airplane upon his return." On June 6, he rented a single- engine aircraft. The FBI placed him in Paterson, New Jersey, on June 10. Then he rented a plane again on June 11, 18, and 19. The FBI has Hanjour (along with Nawaf Al-Hazmi) obtaining a mailbox at Mailboxes, Etc. in Fort Lee, New Jersey, on June 26, and opening a bank account and making an ATM withdrawal in New Jersey on June 27.53

Somewhere in there, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that "evidence suggests" Hanjour again trained on a simulator in Arizona. To begin with, the simulator at the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix was for small aircraft and was nothing like the cockpit of a Boeing 757 – another fact omitted by the Commission.54 But this perhaps becomes a moot point when one realizes that the evidence shows Hanjour never left New Jersey. Turning to the footnote for this claim, the Commission stated that documents from Sawyer "show Hanjour joining the flight simulator club on June 23, 2001". But, the footnote acknowledges, "the documents are inconclusive, as there are no invoices or payment records for Hanjour, while such documents do exist for the other three" who joined the club at that time. The actual evidence thus demonstrates clearly that while Hanjour may have signed up (something which may have been possible over the phone or via the internet), he did not actually attend. The footnote further acknowledges that "Documentary evidence for Hanjour, however, shows that he was in New Jersey for most of June, and no travel records have been recovered showing that he returned to Arizona after leaving with Hazmi in March."55

The second piece of "evidence" that "suggests" Hanjour took further flight simulator training is a Sawyer employee who "identified Hanjour as being there during that time period, though she was less than 100 percent sure." The FBI document cited in the footnote for that claim was obtained by Intelwire.com, but it is almost entirely redacted, so it’s impossible to verify the actual nature of this eyewitness testimony.56 But another document cited further into the same footnote also refers to the eyewitness from Sawyer, who described the four men who had joined the club. The first "UNSUB" (unidentified subject) was "short and stocky". The second was 5’9"-5’10", 170 pounds, and "medium build". The third was 5’8", 170 pounds, and "medium build". And the fourth was 5’6"-5’7" with a beard and mustache. Other eyewitness descriptions for Hanjour offered in the same FBI document have him as being no more than 5’6" (one witness from Arizona Aviation, the document notes, "confirmed that he was only about 5’0" tall"), 140-150 pounds, and very slight and thin, with short, curly hair. This clearly rules out the first three subjects, leaving only the detail- lacking fourth description as being the only one possibly matching Hanjour’s description. But the details given are far too vague to suggest a positive identification, particularly given the witness’s own admission that she wasn’t sure if it was Hanjour.57

Even more significantly, that same FBI document reveals that it was not during the FBI’s initial interview with the witness that she identified that fourth "unsub" as Hanjour, as the 9/11 Commission report implies by citing the report from the FBI’s initial interview for that claim in the footnote. Rather, it was later, during a second interview that occurred after the names and images of the hijackers had been shown repeatedly in the media that she picked Hanjour’s out of a photo lineup. The FBI summary of that later interview states that according to the witness, Hanjour "has the same general characteristics and is very similar appearing as the person she saw at Sawyer.... However, she could not be 100% sure."57

The third and final piece of "evidence" is another witness who identified Hanjour as being "in the Phoenix area during the summer of 2001", citing the FBI document just discussed, which is redacted enough that this claim cannot be readily verified. But the document does show additionally that Hanjour’s membership was good only from June 23 until August 8, at which time it expired.57

Thus, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that sometime after June 19, Hanjour went from the east coast to Arizona without leaving any paper trail (i.e. airline or car rental records, ATM withdrawals, etc.), signed up for a two-week flight simulator club on June 23 without leaving any record he ever actually paid or even showed up (whereas records did exist for other members), only to change his mind and return again to be back in New Jersey with Nawaf Al-Hazmi three days later. In other words, what the evidence actually suggests is that the eyewitness testimony is unreliable and that, contrary to the Commission’s assertion, Hanjour never left New Jersey during that time.

There is a clear pattern of misleading and untruthful statements in the 9/11 Commission’s final report that cannot be dismissed as mere error. Rather, the evidence is incontrovertible that the Commission willfully and deliberately sought to present a falsified story of the alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour; not to relate the facts to the public, but rather to cement a legend in the public mind; not to investigate and draw conclusions based on the facts, but to start with a conclusion – the official account of 9/11 – and manipulate the facts to suit the government’s own conspiracy theory.

The Fiction Perpetuated

The mainstream media has dealt with the problematic nature of the official story in a number of ways. As already seen, one method has simply been to exaggerate characterizations of Hanjour's competence. The official story as related by the New York Times that Hanjour "overcame the mediocrity of his talents" is not merely unsupportable by the evidence, but stands in stark contrast to the available known facts. The legend is also maintained by the mainstream media through false claims, such as the Washington Post’s assertion that Hanjour’s pilot certificate allowed him to fly commercial jets. While the Los Angeles Times suggested Hanjour "convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly", the underlying assumption of the article was that, despite his apparent ineptitude in the cockpit, he really did know how to fly. The public is apparently supposed to believe that he was merely pretending to an incompetent pilot even though he was actually quite skillful. The mainstream media have a tendency to mock and ridicule anyone who dares even to just question the official narrative, all the while putting forth such utter absurdities as this.

As the evidence surfaced that Hanjour was not the pilot extraordinaire the public was initially told he must have been in order to carry out the attack on the Pentagon, another narrative began to emerge. While most of the mainstream media simply ignored the evidence, or, as in the case of the New York Times, drew conclusions that were contradicted by some of their own reporting. In no small part due to the 9/11 Commission report’s findings, the fiction remained firmly embedded in the minds of the public that Hanjour, through determination and perseverance, overcame all obstacles in order to acquire the skills necessary to pilot Flight 77 into the Pentagon.

There was, however, at least some acknowledgment of the major hole in that theory. A few media reports did acknowledge that Hanjour was a horrible pilot and that all evidence demonstrated that he never "overcame his mediocrity". But rather than calling the official theory into question in doing so, these accounts simply offered a revisionist account in order to maintain the legend.

Gone was the story that the hijackers' "capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial", that the attacks were "conducted in a technically proficient way", that "It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case". No more was the expert opinion that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators", that Flight 77's final maneuver was "a difficult high-speed descending turn". Vanished was the view that Flight 77 "was flown with extraordinary skill", even so that it "reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver", that this was evidence of "a great talent" in the cockpit.

In the place of that conventional wisdom, the new narrative that began to emerge in some accounts was that it really wasn't that difficult a maneuver after all, and even a novice pilot like Hani Hanjour – or anyone who’s ever flown a small aircraft and perhaps spent some time playing a flight simulator game, for that matter – could have, with just a bit of luck, pulled it off.

The New American presented this new narrative by quoting Ronald D. Bull, a retired United Airlines pilot, as saying, "It’s not that difficult, and certainly not impossible." But Bull was apparently not speaking specifically with regard to the Pentagon, as he then added, "If you’re doing a suicide run, like these guys were doing, you’d just keep the nose down and push like the devil." In this case, Bull seems to have had the attacks on the World Trade Center, and not the Pentagon, in mind. Moreover, even if Bull also had the Pentagon in mind, he was obviously only considering a situation where the pilot was flying in a straight line towards his target. Thus, if he was also speaking with regard to the Pentagon, he was quite apparently uninformed as to the actual flight path the plane took.

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."58 It’s true that the Pentagon was a very big target. But Williams was apparently similarly aware, when he was asked to comment, of the plane’s final descending maneuver; or of the fact that this maneuver put the plane on a path that reduced the margin to a mere 26.5 feet (a few feet lower, the plane crashes into the ground; a few feet higher, the plane overshoots the target); or that the plane wasn't flying at a constant airspeed, but was rather accelerating rapidly, thus creating more lift that needed compensating for with subtle precision in order to stay within that margin for error; or that the plane wasn't just ambling along at something near landing speed, but was screaming along at an incredible 530 mph. To put that into perspective, cruising speed for airliners is about 600 mph at 30,000 feet of altitude, where the air is less dense. At sea-level that would be equivalent to about 300 mph hour, about double safe landing speed. A velocity of 530 mph at sea-level would be supersonic speed if it were possible to maintain at cruising altitude.59

In both cases, the expert pilots seem to assume that Hanjour simply lined up the hijacked plane and flew a straight line into the building at a speed at which an aircraft could more easily be controlled by an inexperienced pilot. Needless to say, neither pilot’s statements accurately reflect the actual situation with regard to Flight 77. There is no indication that the New American bothered to fill either Bull or Williams in on the specifics of what Flight 77 actually did when it sought them out to "debunk" the assertion that Hanjour wasn’t a capable enough pilot to have pulled it off.

Offering a similar revisionist account, airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home."60

So, according to this narrative, Hanjour’s "textbook" "fighter jet maneuver" in a Boeing 757 is evidence that he was a "shitty pilot" and any pilot wannabe with some rudimentary training and maybe just a little bit of luck could have done it. It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields. These remarks are perhaps not so much the result of an attempt to challenge conventional wisdom as they were simply demonstrative that Smith made very little effort to actually understand the actual nature of Flight 77’s final flight path before writing that it is a "myth" that Hanjour was not a pilot capable of having performed that maneuver. His characterization of Hanjour’s final maneuver as "loops and turns and spirals" indicates that Smith was generalizing without having any real concept of what Flight 77 actually did in its final minutes. A further indication that Smith really just didn’t know what he was talking about was his suggestion that Hanjour "possibly" had "help from the 757’s autopilot" in pulling off those final maneuvers, which is both patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.

The German magazine Der Spiegel also made the rare attempt to actually address this issue, but found it sufficient enough merely to opine that "This is not difficult to accomplish" and similarly suggesting practically anyone could do it since it was "a maneuver that can be practiced with any flight simulator software."61 End of discussion.

The public was originally told that attack on the Pentagon obviously required a fairly high level of sophistication in the cockpit. It was conventional wisdom that being able to maneuver a large jetliner required a certain level of training, a certain level of skill. The public was then told that Hanjour was the pilot among the 19 hijackers who had the most training and the greatest piloting skill. As the facts emerged and it became evident that Hanjour did not have the requisite level of skill, the government chose to manipulate the evidence in order to maintain its theory. The 9/11 Commission served to cement the legend of Hani Hanjour into history, and the mainstream media, for the most part, accepted and maintained that legend even when much of their own reporting revealed facts that contradicted it. In a few cases, there was acknowledgment that Hanjour was a "shitty" pilot after all, but in such cases the official account was still maintained by throwing common sense out the window and reversing the original consensus that it must have taken a skilled pilot to have performed that final, fatal maneuver.

Perhaps this revisionist retelling of the official story is the correct one. Perhaps the conventional wisdom that it would actually take a skilled pilot to competently control a large jetliner is really wrong. Perhaps it’s true that any second-rate pilot who has trouble controlling even a Cessna-172 could get into the cockpit of a Boeing 757 and do what Hani Hanjour is said to have done. Or, on the other hand, perhaps the revisionist account is just as much nonsense as the story that Hanjour "persevered" and "overcame his mediocrity".

Whichever the case, many questions about the events of 9/11 remain to this day unanswered, despite the appointment of the 9/11 Commission ostensibly to investigate and provide answers to those questions. And whichever the case, the conclusion is inescapable that the 9/11 Commission deliberately attempted to deceive the public about the piloting capabilities of Hani Hanjour.

Why?

  1. Statement for the Record FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry, September 26, 2002. [<-]
  2. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office," New York Times, June 19, 2002. [<-]
  3. FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers,” Washington Post, September 15, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  4. Working Draft Chronology of Events for Hijackers and Associates,” FBI, November 14, 2003 (hereafter “FBI Hijackers Timeline”), p. 41. The complete FBI timeline is available for download online. See: “Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission”, HistoryCommons.org, February 14, 2008. The timeline reads: “FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802 to [redacted] [sic].” The “[sic]” is in the original. Why the name “Hani Saleh Hanjoor” is redacted is unclear. [<-]
  5. The Final Report of the National commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, p. 225-227 (hereafter “9/11 Commission Report”). [<-]
  6. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 530. [<-]
  7. Global Security, September 14, 2001. [<-]
  8. Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” CNN, September 12, 2001. The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. [<-]
  9. ‘Get These Planes on the Ground’: Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11,83; ABC News, October 24, 2001. [<-]
  10. Prima ry Target: 189 Dead Or Missing From Pentagon Attack”, CBS News, September 21, 2001. [<-]
  11. Marc Fisher and Don Phillips, “On Flight 77: ‘Our Plane is Being Hijacked,’” Washington Post, September 12, 2001; Page A01 [<-]
  12. Steve Fainaru and Alia Ibrahim, “Mysterious Trip to Flight 77 Cockpit,” Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  13. Flight Path Study – American Airlines Flight 77,” NTSB, February 19, 2002. [<-]
  14. A copy of the NTSB video was obtained by the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth. It is available for viewing on YouTube (accessed April 8, 2010). [<-]
  15. The Pentagon,” GlobalSecurity.org. [<-]
  16. Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, “A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon, Halting the Government,” New York Times, September 12, 2001. [<-]
  17. The Pentagon,” Great Buildings Online (accessed March 27, 2010). Boeing 757 Technical Specifications from Boeing.com (accessed Marcy 27, 2010). [<-]
  18. DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation,” Department of Defense, September 15, 2001. [<-]
  19. Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<- ] [<-]
  20. FBI Summary about Alleged Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour”, Scribd.com (accessed April 6, 2010; herafter “FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour”). This document was cited by the 9/11 Commission. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) possesses the Commission’s records and has released many documents to the public. See: “9/11 Commission Records,” NARA (accessed March 28, 2010). Many of the released records are available online at Scribd.com. See: “9/11 Document Archive,” Scribd.com (accessed March 28, 2010). [<-]
  21. Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<- ]
  22. Charles M. Sennott, “Why bin Laden plot relied on Saudi hijackers,” Boston Globe, March 3, 2002. [<-]
  23. Joel Mowbray, “Visas that Should Have Been Denied,” National Review Online, October 9, 2002. [<-] [<-] [<-]
  24. FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour. [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-]
  25. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  26. David W. Chen, “Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot,” New York Times, September 18, 2001. [<-] [<-]
  27. Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks,” ABC News, October 4, 2001. [<-]
  28. Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  29. “Hanjour an unlikely terrorist,” Cape Cod Times, October 21, 2001. [<-]
  30. Carol J. Williams, John-Thor Dahlburg, and H.G. Reza, “Mainly, They Just Waited,” Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<-]
  31. V. Dion Haynes, “Algerian man didn’t try to hide, neighbors say,” Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2001. [<-]
  32. FBI Summary of Information, Lofti Raissi”, January 4, 2004. [<-] [<-]
  33. 9/11 Commission Report p. 520. [<-]
  34. Hanjour’s FAA airman documentation from the 9/11 Commission records released by NARA are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  35. Hanjour’s FAA airman records are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  36. Kellie Lunney, “FAA contractors approved flight licenses for Sept. 11 suspect,” Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  37. Report: 9/11 Hijacker Bypassed FAA,” Associated Press, September 30, 2004 [<-] [<-]
  38. Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  39. The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 12. The report notes that “To our knowledge none of them [the hijackers] had ever flown an actual airliner before.” [<-]
  40. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Sections 61.123, 61.129. Present requirements in these regards are the same as they were when Hanjour obtained his certificate. See the version revised as of January 1, 1999. [<-]
  41. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 521- 522. [<-]
  42. FBI FD-302, James Charles McRae,” April 10, 2001. [<-]
  43. Jim Yardley, “A Trainee Noted for Incompetence,” New York Times, May 4, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  44. FAA Probed, Cleared Sept. 11 Hijacker in Early 2001,” Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  45. David Hancock, “FAA Was Alerted to Sept. 11 Hijacker,” CBS News, May 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  46. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office,” New York Times, June 19, 2001 [<-]
  47. FBI Hijacker’s Timeline, p.123. [<-]
  48. Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  49. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 242. [<-]
  50. Brooke A. Masters, Leef Smith, and Michael D. Shear, “Dulles Hijackers Made Maryland Their Base,” Washington Post, September 19, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  51. Piecing together the shadowy lives of the hijackers,” Telegraph, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  52. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, November 24, 2004. [<-]
  53. FBI Hijackers Timeline, p. 150, 154, 156-157, 161-162, 166-167. [<-]
  54. Jacques Billeaud, “More Arizona ties to terror suspect,” Associated Press, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  55. "9/11 Commission Report," p. 529. The document cited by the 9/11 Commission was obtained by Intelwire.com. “FBI Memorandum, Sawyer Aviation records”, October 12, 2001. [<-]
  56. FBI FD-302, Interrogation of Tina Beth Arnold (Sawyer Aviation) ,” FBI, October 17, 2001. [<-]
  57. FBI Summary of Information, Lotfi Raissi,” FBI, January 4, 2004 [<-] [<-] [<-]
  58. William F. Jasper, “9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction," The New American, May 2, 2005. [<-]
  59. Airplane Flight: How High? How Fast? ” NASA (accessed April 17, 2010). Relative airspeed is calculated by the equation B d v2 = W, where factor B depends on the profile of a given set of wings (larger wings produce more lift), d is air density, v is velocity, and W is the airplane’s weight. At 30,000 feet, air density is about ¼ that at sea level, allowing an airliner to double its speed to produce the same amount of lift. [<-]
  60. Patrick Smith, “A sk the pilot,” Salon, May 19, 2006. [<-]
  61. What Really Happened: The 9/11 Fact File,” Der Spiegel, December 20, 2006. [<-]

Jeremy R. Hammond is the editor of Foreign Policy Journal, a website providing news, analysis, and opinion from outside the standard framework provided by government officials and the corporate media. He was among the recipients of the 2010 Project Censored Awards for outstanding investigative journalism and is the author of The Rejection of Palestinian Self- Determination. You can contact him at: jeremy@foreignpolicyjournal.com. Read other articles by Jeremy, or visit Jeremy's website.

This article was posted on Sunday, April 18th, 2010 at 9:00am and is filed under 9-11, Disinformation, FBI, General.


FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   21:28:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#138) (Edited)

The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001.

So not only have you been debunked about Hanjour never having any license, you are now debunked about him not having completed type certification for multi- engine jets. Which per FAR's is just as good for type certification on a simulator as getting behind the controls. And a lot less expensive or dangerous both for student and pilot training company.

Airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home.

So you have a real airline pilot who expresses my sentiments exactly. So much for "Pilots for 911 truth."

You're on a rollllll....

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."58 It’s true that the Pentagon was a very big target.

But Williams was apparently similarly aware, when he was asked to comment, of the plane’s final descending maneuver; or of the fact that this maneuver put the plane on a path that reduced the margin to a mere 26.5 feet (a few feet lower, the plane crashes into the ground; a few feet higher, the plane overshoots the target.

I must have said this at least 100 times. Ground effect, ground effect, ground effect makes the aircraft flown at high speed want to continue flying, not crash. As Williams says "Point the nose down and fly like the devil" to do a crash just AGL.

An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

So who the eff is "he" if not Hanjour? And the ATC did not actually say it was not a 757. Just that you "aren't supposed to fly" the 757 the way it was observed flying. So what, so was it a 757 or wasn't it? If if wasn't, where the eff did the "real 757" go which the ATC should have known becuase it was his job as ATC to know where the airplanes were, not how the pilots coulda, shoulda, woulda flown those airplanes.

Whatever the case, many questions about the events of 9/11 remain to this day unanswered, despite the appointment of the 9/11 Commission ostensibly to investigate and provide answers to those questions. And whichever the case, the conclusion is inescapable that the 9/11 Commission deliberately attempted to deceive the public about the piloting capabilities of Hani Hanjour.

Arm waving with no specifics to rebut

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   23:15:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: AGAviator (#146)

Airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home.

You again neglected to post the analysis of those claims, and you also neglect all of the evidence indicating the plane did NOT do "loops and turns and spirals", it was in a set of highly controlled and precise descending turns, levelling off at treetop level at 400 mph, and descending to 20 feet of the ground at 530 mph and hitting the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall.


So, according to this narrative, Hanjour’s "textbook" "fighter jet maneuver" in a Boeing 757 is evidence that he was a "shitty pilot" and any pilot wannabe with some rudimentary training and maybe just a little bit of luck could have done it. It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields. These remarks are perhaps not so much the result of an attempt to challenge conventional wisdom as they were simply demonstrative that Smith made very little effort to actually understand the actual nature of Flight 77’s final flight path before writing that it is a "myth" that Hanjour was not a pilot capable of having performed that maneuver. His characterization of Hanjour’s final maneuver as "loops and turns and spirals" indicates that Smith was generalizing without having any real concept of what Flight 77 actually did in its final minutes. A further indication that Smith really just didn’t know what he was talking about was his suggestion that Hanjour "possibly" had "help from the 757’s autopilot" in pulling off those final maneuvers, which is both patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   0:40:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: FormerLurker (#150)

you also neglect all of the evidence indicating the plane did NOT do "loops and turns and spirals", it was in a set of highly controlled and precise descending turns, levelling off at treetop level at 400 mph, and descending to 20 feet of the ground at 530 mph and hitting the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall.

If the plane didn't do "loops, turns and spirals" it did not do "fighter jet " quality maneuvers.

Again, fighter pilots pull 8+ G turns, they have to to avoid SAM's, and a 1/2 G turn isn't even student pilot 30 degree banking maneuver..

It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields

Pointing the nose down and diving into the building from above would put most of the energy, momentum and crash force into digging a big hole in the ground, instead of laterally spreading as much damage acoss as many floors as was possible. They knew what they were doing tying to come in from the side.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   1:53:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: AGAviator (#151)

Pointing the nose down and diving into the building from above would put most of the energy, momentum and crash force into digging a big hole in the ground, instead of laterally spreading as much damage acoss as many floors as was possible. They knew what they were doing tying to come in from the side.

That's imbecilic. The airliner could have flown in on an angle, hit the roof, take out a few rings maybe, and splash fuel all over the roof. It would have been the easiest and sure fire way to score a hit.

Since Hanjour is alleged to have flown that aircraft, he would have chosen the easiest way, not the hardest possible way there was.

The thought of flying a 757 at treetop level at over 400 mph and then dropping down to 20 feet off the ground to hit a 71 tall target at 530 mph, requires suprehuman ability, and there is probably no pilot on earth who could actually do it, not in a 757 at least.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   4:56:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: FormerLurker (#156)

There is probably no pilot on earth who could actually do it, not in a 757 at least.

That's what simulators are for. They tell you with considerable accuracy what is possible and not possible, without actually damaging the craft.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   4:57:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: AGAviator (#157)

That's what simulators are for. They tell you with considerable accuracy what is possible and not possible, without actually damaging the craft.

What, are you trying the say the pilots that flew it did it remotely from a simulator? You're not making any sense.

If it was a 757, it would have been aerodynmically impossible to fly that low to the ground at over 400mph, so any pilot would have to have been either superhuman, or a computer perhaps.

It certainly wasn't Hanjour, who skipped class, did poorly while he was there, and flunked out of 737 simulator training.

Besides all that, he couldn't even really even fly a Cessna single engine plane too well either. Hanjour wasn't a super-pilot, that much is indisputable.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   5:06:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: FormerLurker (#160)

If it was a 757, it would have been aerodynmically impossible to fly that low to the ground at over 400mph

Ground effect generates extra lift. Even a flaps down, nose up, power trimmed, and gear extended passenger jet going 150 mph instead of 450 mph needs thrust reversers in most cases to keep from going off a 10,000 foot runway.

The simulator knows that. If the simulators are wrong about any important facts, they would not be FAA certified for training, and the sellers of the programs and devices would have been sued years ago.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   5:11:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: AGAviator (#161) (Edited)

Ground effect generates extra lift. Even a flaps down, nose up, power trimmed, and gear extended passenger jet going 150 mph instead of 450 mph needs thrust reversers in most cases to keep from going off a 10,000 foot runway.

Are you smoking something other than tobacco?

Ground effect generates extra life, that is true. That is why it'd be practically impossible for a 757 to fly that low to the ground at that speed, ground effect would prevent it from going any lower.

A pilot would have to try to fight ground effect with the nose down. However, since the was aircraft was accelerating from 400 mph to 530 mph, the faster the aircraft flew, the more lift would have been created since ground effect increases with speed, so that is where the impossible part comes into the picture.

There'd be no way to counter the increasing ground effect at that speed, the plane would have wanted to climb, and there would have been no way to descend with the nose level at that speed from 60 feet high to 20 feet high while accelerating.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   5:29:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: FormerLurker (#163) (Edited)

There'd be no way to counter the increasing ground effect at that speed, the plane would have wanted to climb

Try it on a simulator, keeping in mind that clipping 5-6 light standards, rocking the wings on final approach, and brushing a wing against construction equipment are evidence of a plane not under complete control.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   5:59:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: AGAviator (#165)

Try it on a simulator, keeping in mind that clipping 5-6 light standards, rocking the wings on final approach, and brushing a wing against construction equipment are evidence of a plane not under complete control.

Why don't you. I doubt you've ever been in either a commercial airliner simulator or a real airliner cockpit. You can blow smoke all you want, any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60 feet off the ground in a 757 at over 400 mph and maintain that altitude for any distance, ESPECIALLY if accelerating.

Well no shit Sherlock the aircraft allegedly hit light poles (even though there are reports it didn't, but that's another story concerning what REALLY hit the Pentagon). The light poles were between the Pentagon and the approach the aircraft allegedly took. What'd you think, you can fly lower than the top of the light poles and not touch them somehow, sort of like Magick Lightpoles or something?

As far as wobbling, you haven't provided ANY evidence of that. And again, Hanjour would had to have been a superhuman pilot to fly as low as he allegedly did and as fast as he allegedly did, keeping that plane from climbing while travelling at over 400 mph so close to the ground, all while accelerating to 530 mph.

He most certainly wouldn't have been able to descend to 20 feet off the ground.

The guy couldn't even fly a Cessna 172.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   10:38:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: FormerLurker (#168)

Any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60 feet off the ground in a 757 at over 400 mph and maintain that altitude for any distance, ESPECIALLY if accelerating.

No they will not.

Any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60

Prove it

What'd you think, you can fly lower than the top of the light poles and not touch them somehow?

Who hit the light poles

As far as wobbling, you haven't provided ANY evidence of that.

I have. There are also plenty of pictures of the tops of construction equipment being hit by the starboard wing, and eye witness testimony.

And again, Hanjour would had to have been a superhuman pilot to fly as low as he allegedly did

Wrong. Ground effect keeps the plane from crashing into the ground unless the nose is pointed sharply downwards.

Keeping that plane from climbing while travelling at over 400 mph so close to the ground, all while accelerating to 530 mph.

Wrong.

A competent ATP with 38 years experience has already been quoted, on this thread, saying "Point the nose down and fly like the devil" to do exactly that.

He most certainly wouldn't have been able to descend to 20 feet off the ground.
Oh really? How do airplanes ever land then?

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   11:56:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: Keeping that plane from climbing while travelling at over 400 mph so close to the ground, all while accelerating to 530 mph. Wrong.

You: A competent ATP with 38 years experience has already been quoted, on this thread, saying "Point the nose down and fly like the devil" to do exactly that.

I'd like to see him do it in a 757 flying over 400 mph 20 feet from the ground for a distance identical to that of the alleged 757. He could prove it once and for all if it were possible.

Of course, there is NEVER any deliberate disinformation presented by "experts", right?

You're trying to sell the idea that a guy who basically crapped his pants in a Cessna 172 single engine airplane, one who couldn't even fly a circle around the airport and had trouble descending with it for a proper landing, flew a multi-engine jumbo jet (without EVER having flown ANY sort of jet before in his life) at 20 feet off the ground travelling at 530 mph.

Yeah, he "flew like the devil", that's a great scientific analysis your pal presented. He couldn't fly a paper airplane, never mind a Boeing 757 at unheard of speeds so close to the ground.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   13:10:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#181)

I have not followed this thread so I must say I don't know what side of the 911 story related to Hani Hanjour either of you represent...moving along to why I am posting to the thread, I thought both of you might get a kick out of reading MSM's description of Hani Hanjour ( spoon fed to them by the FBI) - it's pretty funnny, and even more so considering that at the time we Amerikens ( myself being one of the dumb bunnies) slurped down this stinky poopy crapola like it were sweet tasting syrup...

Enjoy!

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...ics/attack/hijackers.html

Hani Hanjour

Obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 from the Federal Aviation Administration. [ how easy peasy was that?]The license expired six months later because he failed to complete a required medical exam.[ oops - he forgot to do the one single requirement] In 1996, he received flight training for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., but did not finish the course because his instructors thought he was not proficient enough.[ but the FDA thought he was great no questions asked except for needing a physical exam ] He listed his address as a post office box in Taife, Saudi Arabia,[ red flag, red flag - are PO boxes even exist in SA?] but he also has been linked to addresses in San Diego and Hollywood, Fla. His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket. [ say what????? he just waltzed on the plane 'cause he was a Big Cheese???]

scrapper2  posted on  2010-07-31   14:01:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: scrapper2, buckeroo, turtle (#183) (Edited)

I thought both of you might get a kick out of reading MSM's description of Hani Hanjour ( spoon fed to them by the FBI) - it's pretty funnny, and even more so considering that at the time we Amerikens ( myself being one of the dumb bunnies) slurped down this stinky poopy crapola like it were sweet tasting syrup.

There is not much disagreement on whether Hanjour was a crummy pilot.

The contention comes from the CT's saying he absolutely had to be a great pilot in order to pull a 1/2 G turn, when just to get a pilot license you need to pull a 2G 360 degree turn + or - 200 feet.

And the CT's saying he absolutely had to be a great pilot in order to descend at 46.667 feet per second or 31.818 MPH vertically over the time span of 2 minutes.

I say "ridiculous" to both claims of the need for piloting to be excellent to perform at these simple levels. It's the classic strawman argument. Put up something untrue ("fighter pilot level skills needed to fly the 757"), rebut it, then claim victory.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   14:22:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: AGAviator, scrapper2, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, HOUNDDAWG, christine, abraxas, Dakmar, James Deffenbach, all (#185) (Edited)

Even if he did fly it, why weren't the windows broken?

edit: Where the wings should have hit them.

wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-31   15:19:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, scrapper2, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, abraxas, Dakmar, James Deffenbach, all (#186)

Even if he did fly it, why weren't the windows broken where the wings would have hit them?

Well, you see, the wings struck the steel reinforced concrete along their leading edges close to the fuselage and then they immediately folded up and into the fuselage, similar to the way fighter wings fold before being lowered below deck on carriers.

Of course had the plane's wings folded with the engines facing out the building would have shown the impact of the combined tonnage of the heavy, solid alloy engines, and that would have been more likely to damage the facade than the relatively soft nose of the plane.

ERGO, the engines folded up and in facing the fuselage, but that presents another problem. In order for the wings to fold that neatly along the fuselage the engines would have met inside the plane, and the combined width of the engines is wider than the narrow-body on every 757 fuselage that hasn't been "subject to govt explainin'".

And, if the engines were pointed down (on wings that rotated 90 degrees while folding) the fuselage should have been neatly sheared where the engines met, crushing the plane shell between them before vaporizing against each other.(the engines' length on the vertical being roughly equal to the diameter of the fuselage.) It's unlikely that the crushed shell would survive being sandwiched between engines that were vaporized. (Were you shocked that there were no graphic simulations of American Airlines Flight 77 miraculous wing folding phenomenon the way they fabbed up the colorful but incorrect CGI cartoons of the WTC collapse? Mee neether)

So, the wings and engines must have been traveling at such incredible folding speeds that the high tensile-multiple alloy engines were literally flattened and liquified on impact with each other inside the plane, and the two large pieces of the now sheared shell followed the same trajectory into the building, all because the main wing struts were able to bend like soft rubber to tangential angles without the wings shearing off the way they do when commercial jets hit trees and all other "steel reinforced hardened concrete bomb proof military headquarters".

The fact that the govt wants us to believe that something like this is what really happened is all we need to know, and any science or physics that raise doubts may be disregarded.

9/11 may be summarized thus: As you know, govt spokesmen are rock solid reliable, more so than any inconvenient or "incongruous math calculations or scientific principles."

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-01   3:57:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: HOUNDDAWG, AGAviator, all, *9-11* (#204)

So, the wings and engines must have been traveling at such incredible folding speeds that the high tensile-multiple alloy engines were literally flattened and liquified on impact with each other inside the plane, and the two large pieces of the now sheared shell followed the same trajectory into the building, all because the main wing struts were able to bend like soft rubber to tangential angles without the wings shearing off the way they do when commercial jets hit trees and all other "steel reinforced hardened concrete bomb proof military headquarters".

lol

pwned

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-01   11:26:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: wudidiz, HOUNDDAWG, (#208) (Edited)

So, the wings and engines must have been traveling at such incredible folding speeds that the high tensile-multiple alloy engines were literally flattened and liquified on impact with each other inside the plane, and the two large pieces of the now sheared shell followed the same trajectory into the building, all because the main wing struts were able to bend like soft rubber to tangential angles without the wings shearing off the way they do when commercial jets hit trees and all other "steel reinforced hardened concrete bomb proof military headquarters". lol

pwned

pwned yourself.

Now go to your next move, k00ksite denial of facts, claiming the parts weren't of a 757 engine but they can't specify with any certainty what they are from, because that would require supportable evidence of their own, and their denials have been debunked hundreds of times too.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   13:10:51 ET  (2 images) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, scrapper2, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, abraxas, Dakmar, James Deffenbach (#211)

You neglected to mention that the second photo was a picture that was released as an exhibit during the Zacarias Moussaoui terrorist trial in 2006 and never seen by any honest observers before that date. And, this by the same govt that is so Hell bent on "stage managing all evidence" that they threatened to prosecute those who secured a piece of evidence from TWA Flight 800 to test it for missile fuel residue. Is this the act of a govt that seeks "sunlight, the best disinfectant"?

No, you cannot sell your crock 'o shit here because we ain't on the payroll and we ain't part of the secret homosexual pedophile cabal that is the US Government.

And, between your endless fellatio-of-govt-by-proxy sessions do you ever take a breath and ask, "If a picture is worth a thousand words then why are all of the surveillance videos of that day under lock and key?" Simply put, if that doesn't arouse your suspicions and result in forceful demands for justice then you will never have any credibility with honest, patriotic Americans who are capable of adult reasoning and who want the truth.

Perhaps you should continue to haunt places where like minded cowards on the govt payroll will agree with any "official findings", (i.e. "Oswald was the lone gunman 'cause the Warren Commission said so") that won't jeopardize the stolen or extorted tax dollars that buy the loyalty of the likes of you)

And, what proof did the govt offer other than "You can believe us 'cause we wouldn't lie about sumthin' like that!" that this was photographed at the Pentagon?

Your intentional omission of the source of the photo is proof that you're aware of the absurdity of offering the govt's word to "prove" that the govt (or Satan, or Jay Pollard or FBI spy Robert Hanssen) isn't lying. The only other possibility is that you really are that fucking dumb, in which case you'd believe your own wife's testimony against you in divorce court: "Well, the little woman has testified and if she said it then it must be true so, there's no need for me to testify, Your Honor!"

pwned indeed.

And while we're on the subject of Zacarias Moussaoui; "According to the Associated Press, three jurors decided Moussaoui had only limited knowledge of the September 11 plot, and three described his role in the attacks as minor, if he had any role at all."

It's a real bitch when carefully selected jurors don't follow the script the way govt profilers and psychologists anticipate, isn't it? NO WONDER the govt insists of kangaroo military tribunals for selected civilians. That's how the govt guaranteed the conviction and hanging of Mary Surratt. (You didn't really believe that "the Warren Commission Report=case closed!" was the earliest "precedent of corruption" in use by our govt, did you?)

And, speaking of you, You really are a criminal co-conspirator after the fact, aren't you?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-03   2:27:03 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: HOUNDDAWG, buckeroo (#215)

You neglected to mention that the second photo was a picture that was released as an exhibit during the Zacarias Moussaoui terrorist trial in 2006 and never seen by any honest observers before that date.

Well imagine that.

A criminal prosecution that doesn't issue general public press releases of all the evidence it has prior to the trial.

So

(1) As not to tip off the defense prior to pretrial discovery and conferences, and
(2) The defense in a trial cannot claim the trial was prejudiced by publicity of evidence before the jury was selected and seated.

Not only are you ignorant of aviation and construction engineering, you are incapable of even understanding basic concepts of American jurisprudence.

And, speaking of you, You really are a criminal co-conspirator after the fact, aren't you?

No, you're a false front operator agent provocateur attempting without much success to steer the general public into unproductive and unsolvable scenarios that distract from ongoing here and now issues.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:03:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: AGAviator, HOUNDDAWG, wudidiz, buckeroo (#223)

A criminal prosecution that doesn't issue general public press releases of all the evidence it has prior to the trial.

Videos of a historical event which affected the very soul of this nation aren't simply "evidence", they are historical records. As such, being that the events of that day are still used as the rationale for draconian measures such as the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act, those videos MUST be made public.

They are not being held in a vault in order to convict bin Laden or anyone else. Such evidence would only confirm the official story, or destroy it.

If that story were true, all of the people involved with the Flight 77 hijacking are now dead.

IF those tapes did show anything supporting the government story of what happened, it's pretty much a certainty they would have had those videos up on network news the evening of 9/11/2001. More than likely, not only do they not confirm the official story, but expose what really DID happen.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   13:16:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#230)

If that story were true, all of the people involved with the Flight 77 hijacking are now dead.

Absolutely and totally wrong.

Buck already posted to you a list of people who have already pleaded guilty and received jail sentences for assisting Hanjour get false identification so as to carry out his hijacking of Flight 77..

There are numerous people who aided and abetted Hanjour's and other Arabs hijacking, without knowing the extent of their plots.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:31:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: AGAviator (#232)

Absolutely and totally wrong.

Buck already posted to you a list of people who have already pleaded guilty and received jail sentences for assisting Hanjour get false identification so as to carry out his hijacking of Flight 77..

So why didn't they pull out the tapes for those trials? You know why? It's more than likely because they'd prove those people had nothing to do with the Pentagon attack.

As far as the fake ID, I'm surprised you're willing to admit that whoever was claiming to be Hani Hanjour more than likely wasn't. The differences in the facial features between the Dulles Airport video and the other images of Hanjour are significant, proving they are two different people.

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   13:35:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#249. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#233)

So why didn't they pull out the tapes for those trials? You know why? It's more than likely because they'd prove those people had nothing to do with the Pentagon attack.

Feel free to tell that to the dozen plus defense attorneys who took guilty pleas intead of more serious charges like being accomplices to mass murders.

Or if you don't trust the defense attorneys, go to pro bono legal groups defending "innocent" people from miscarriages of justice.

I guarantee you nobody will come near these cases because they have convincing evidence admitted by the defendants that they did in fact aid and abet hijackers with violating US immigration laws, albeit without knowing the ultimate purpose of what the pilot trainee/hijackers wanted to do which was murder thousands of Americans at the instigation of Osama Bin Laden.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   16:24:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#251. To: AGAviator (#249)

Anyways, where are those videos?

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   16:26:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#251)

I am greatly amused. Bloviator is now trying to use Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation as a tool to "catapult the propaganda".

Of course he misapplies them and is attempting to use them to misrepresent anything which points out how he is dissembling, avoiding issues, and various other points of disinformation technique as being disinformation.

So, I guess one way to dispel the fog he is trying to create is to turn on a fan for him.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   17:21:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#257. To: OInk, buckeroo, turtle (#256)

Of course he misapplies them and is attempting to use them to misrepresent anything which points out how he is dissembling, avoiding issues, and various other points of

Like what, blowhard?

"It is the job of a disinfo artist to interfere with these evaluations... to at least make people think the links are weak or broken when, in truth, they are not... or to propose alternative solutions leading away from the truth. Often, by simply impeding and slowing down the process through disinformation tactics, a level of victory is assured because apathy increases with time and rhetoric."

For such disinformationalists, the overall aim is to avoid discussing links in the chain of evidence which cannot be broken by truth, but at all times, to use clever deceptions or lies to make select links seem weaker than they are, create the illusion of a break, or better still, cause any who are considering the chain to be distracted in any number of ways, including the method of questioning the credentials of the presenter.

Please understand that fact is fact, regardless of the source. Likewise, truth is truth, regardless of the source. This is why criminals are allowed to testify against other criminals.

Where a motive to lie may truly exist, only actual evidence that the testimony itself IS a lie renders it completely invalid. Were a known 'liar's' testimony to stand on its own without supporting fact, it might certainly be of questionable value, but if the testimony (argument) is based on verifiable or otherwise demonstrable facts, it matters not who does the presenting or what their motives are, or if they have lied in the past or even if motivated to lie in this instance -- the facts or links would and should stand or fall on their own merit and their part in the matter will merely be supportive.

Moreover, particularly with respects to public forums such as newspaper letters to the editor, and Internet chat and news groups, the disinfo type has a very important role. In these forums, the principle topics of discussion are generally attempts by individuals to cause other persons to become interested in their own particular position, idea, or solution -- very much in development at the time.

People often use such mediums as a sounding board and in hopes of pollination to better form their ideas.

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   18:37:17 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#258. To: AGAviator (#257)

Did you see O_I's references in post @255? They suck... he even went so far as to MAKE a thread out of proud post..... ROTFL

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   18:41:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#269. To: buckeroo, Buckmonster Fullofit, AGBloviator, Former Lurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, christine, HOUNDDAWG, IRTorqued, wudidiz, all (#258) (Edited)

Did you see O_I's references in post @255? They suck... he even went so far as to MAKE a thread out of proud post..... ROTFL

Pretty much as I expected.

You do not refute the reference you make a personal attack - Argumentum Ad Hominem and apply Rule number 9 of the Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

So, other than a stupid generalization to avoid addressing the point you sidestep it with crudity, insults, and a refusal to acknowledge the well documented evidences provided. At no point did you refute any element of the article, you merely engaged in disinformation ploys to AVOID having to address it.

Now returning to your earlier false assertion:

My question was (#236): Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos (from 32 separate locations surrounding the Pentagon the afternoon of 911) being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

Your response was (237):

They were all returned (untouched or edited) after official government analysis. You are using eight year old gossip/rumour/BS/hacked crap as a matter of fact.

Which is now shown to be FALSE. In other words you were L-Y-I-N-G when you said they had.

Unlike your attempts to put words in my mouth I have quoted your exact words. The article posted in Post #255 stands as a direct refutation of your L-I-E.

You now stand branded by your own words as a L-I-A-R.

There can be no doubt and as it is demonstrated by the evidence in this thread it is quite clear that you are a L-I-A-R.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   20:37:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#270. To: Original_Intent (#269)

A liar and he's not just playing dumb either, that's not an act.

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   20:40:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#271. To: James Deffenbach (#270)

One of the things I find most interesting about disinfo people is their general stupidity. Generally speaking they conduct no original thought - it is all cut and paste or the same set of disinformation gambits, such as playing dumb, over and over and over and over again. No originality, no wit, just all spin all the time.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   21:18:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#272. To: Original_Intent (#271)

But maybe we should cut him some slack. He MAY be inventing a new kernel for an operating system that will make Bill Gates really take notice. He will probably out-Linux Linus Torvalds. Or maybe not.

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   21:22:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 272.

#273. To: James Deffenbach (#272)

I'd like to cut him some slack - and then see it draped over a stout branch on the Village Oak.

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03 21:31:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 272.

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