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Title: WikiLeaks Reveals Al Qaeda Boss Was Seen at Village Meetings - Despite CIA Claims They Were Clueless
Source:
Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... den-seen-village-meetings.html
Published: Jul 28, 2010
Author: Mail Foreign Service
Post Date: 2010-07-28 15:17:40 by AGAviator
Keywords: None
Views: 5419
Comments: 280
Glimpses of Bin Laden: Now WikiLeaks reveals Al Qaeda boss was seen at village meetings - despite CIA claims that they were clueless By Mail Foreign Service Last updated at 10:16 AM on 27th July 2010 Bin Laden spotted in meeting with Taliban chief in 2006 'Spotted': Among 91,000 leaked U.S. documents are claims that Osama Bin Laden was last seen in 2006 The claims are among 91,000 U.S. military records obtained by whistleblowing website WikiLeaks. Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, said last month that there have been no firm leads on Bin Laden's whereabouts since the 'early 2000s'. But a 'threat report' from the International Security Assistance Force regional command (north) on suicide bombers in August 2006 suggested Bin Laden had been attending regular meetings in villages on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan. It said: 'Reportedly a high-level meeting was held where six suicide bombers were given orders for an operation in northern Afghanistan. These meetings take place once every month.' According to the Guardian, which has received the documents, the report went on: 'The top four people in these meetings are Mullah Omar [the Taliban leader], Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Dadullah and Mullah [Baradar].' If true, it could mean forces came close to having the opportunity to wipe out the senior leadership of the Afghan insurgency that has so far claimed the lives of 320 British soldiers. The war logs also show that Bin Laden had a hand in a plot to poison coalition forces by adding a powder to food and drink consumed by troops as they passed through villages. Toll: An Afghan girl in hospital in Helmand after being injured by coalition forces in an air strike in 2007 These documents also suggest coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in so-called 'blue on white' incidents which were never reported. The leak is said to be U.S. Army intelligence expert Bradley Manning, 22, who boasted he had downloaded hundreds of thousands of documents, according to computer hacker Adrian Lamo. The 22-year-old, pictured above, is said to have contacted Lamo out of the blue and then claimed he had saved high-security files onto CDs, ready to hand to Wikileaks, while pretending to listen to Lady Gaga. 'Hillary Clinton and several thousand diplomats around the world are going to have a heart attack when they wake up one morning and find an entire repository of classified foreign policy is available, in searchable format, to the public,' he apparently told Mr Lamo. The hacker got in touch with the U.S. military and later met with them in Starbucks to hand over a printout of his conversations with Manning. Manning has already been charged over a separate leak of a classified helicopter cockpit video earlier this month. It showed U.S. soldiers laughing as they gunned down Afghan civilians and two journalists in a firefight in Baghdad in 2007. He was picked up in Iraq, where he was working. Manning is said to be locked up in a military prison after being shipped across the border to Kuwait. He faces trial by court martial and, if found guilty, a heavy jail sentence. Mr Lamo believes Manning did not work alone, saying he did not have ‘the technological expertise’ to carry out the gathering and leaking of the documents. 'I believe somebody would have had to have been of assistance to him,’ he said. They include claims that 16 children were among those shot or bombed in error The leaked military logs also reveal how a secret 'black' unit of crack special forces hunt down Taliban leaders for 'kill or capture' without trial - and voice concerns that Pakistani intelligence and Iran are supporting the insurgents. Downing Street said it 'would lament all unauthorised releases of classified material' and the White House condemned the ' irresponsible' leak of the files. And military and intelligence experts warned yesterday that the leaks could imperil the lives of British forces in Afghanistan. Colonel Stuart Tootal, who in 2006 commanded 3rd Battalion Parachute Regiment in Helmand Province - where more than 320 UK soldiers have been killed - said the information 'could impact on the security of our soldiers'. He insisted Nato forces now put a 'huge emphasis' on avoiding civilian casualties. Tory MP Patrick Mercer, a former Army captain, said: 'Although much of this information is in the public domain, the details are particularly damaging to the credibility of the coalition. 'Our enemies will be quick to exploit the propaganda element of it. 'If there are details of operational matters - locations, equipment, troops movements, resources - then soldiers' lives could be placed at risk.' Details of the secret files, detailing military operations between 2004 and 2009, were published yesterday by the Guardian, New York times and Germany's Der Spiegel while more than 75,000 records were made available on the WikiLeaks website. The files list 144 incidents involving Afghan civilian casualties, in which 195 died and 174 were injured. They detail coalition forces - fearful of suicide bombers - shooting unarmed drivers and civilian motorcyclists, and record an incident when French troops opened fire at a bus full of children because it came too close to a military convoy. Other leaked documents record a U.S. patrol machine-gunning a bus, killing or wounding 15 passengers, and Polish troops mortaring a village, killing a wedding party including a pregnant woman. They reveal details of undercover operations by a U.S. special forces unit named task Force 373, formed to hunt down and kill or capture taliban and Al Qaeda commanders. According to Julian Assange, the founder of the website, the files contain details of 'thousands' of potential war crimes. At a press conference in London, he defended his decision to publish the files and claimed the high level of civilian casualties reported was in fact lower than the true figure because military personnel 'downplayed' the number or reported them as insurgent deaths. Mr Assange said: 'We have tried hard to make sure that this material does not put innocents at harm. 'All the material is over seven months old so it is of no current operational consequence, even though it may be of very significant investigative consequence. 'The revelation of abuse by the U.S. and coalition forces may cause Afghans to be upset, and rightly so. ‘If governments don't like populations being upset, they should treat them better, not conceal abuses.' Professor Malcolm Chalmers, a defence expert at the Royal United Services Institute think tank, said that the leaks could undermine already faltering public support for the war. Read more: Bin Laden Seen Village Meetings Poster Comment: There has never been any proof that Bin Laden has died or been killed. He has repeatedly been reported to be in a very rugged area surrounded by people fiercely loyal to him. OBL is not and has never been in direct command of operations. He sees himself as someone providing motivation and logistical support to people actually carrying out day to day operations.
Al Qaeda boss 'had hand' in plot to poison UK troops
Secret files claim British soldiers shot 16 children
Military experts: leaks could put our troops in peril
Taliban missile brought down Chinook helicopter Secret files leaked about the war in Afghanistan have revealed tantalising glimpses of Osama Bin Laden despite public CIA claims that they are clueless as to the whereabouts of the Al Qaeda boss.
IS THIS SOLDIER BEHIND LEAKS? This fresh-faced soldier could be responsible for leaking a massive file of secret military documents revealing chilling details of the Afghanistan war and civilian deaths.
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#42. To: buckeroo (#25)
I have EVERY reason in the world to say that to you, pal. I've defended you on more than one occasion in the past, giving you the benefit of the doubt where others were not so forgiving. Recently you've been a total douchebag, and thrown more than a few hissy fits. You can go to hell buck.
All you do here is insult people buck. You add nothing of value to a discussion, and appear to enjoy massive flame wars. It seems to be the ONLY reason you are here.
The only "Half Truthers" here are you and buck. Actually, you fluctuate between "No Truthers" and "Half Truthers", where usually you're in the "Barely Any Truth" category.
Your ego really is at comical proportions. Where did we leave off? You are so insignificant to me that I can't recall. Oh, yeah, you were going to find a site that is "more productive" than this one. Right? Nobody follows you around. Nobody gets "hot and bothered" by your posts, it's more like NOT BOTHERED at all. As in, you don't even warrant a rise to dislike, it's a big zero in the feeling anything department. But, don't let that interrupt your delusions of mattering. lol XOXOXO Toots......hehehehehe
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
The question is who is using whom the most. I'd have to say that ever since Afghanistan, Pakistan has been using the US, because of American infamiliarity with regional politics, tribes, languages, history, and culture. In 2001 America did not even have any people who could speak Pashtu. Now they are willing to pay interpreters with US citizenship and usually Afghan background $300,000 a year to be translators. However the interpreters are also big targets for the Taliban and can easily get killed if they come across the wrong people and don't have protection.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yup, Half Truther, that's why within the last 24 hours you've addressed 1 in 5 of your posts to me. And larger percentages including "attaboys" to other people posting to me, on previous days, weeks, and months. Try practicing your lying on somebody dumb as you are. Toots.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events. I no longer trust either of your two respective posts, FL and O_I posts. Both of you are liars and deceitful POS.
"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET
Seriously, your ego is comical. Oh, now it's lying and dumb. Sounds like somebody got his little feelings hurt. lol Maybe Buckie can lick your wounds. It's funny that you can't even make a post without including Buckie. What a dynamic duo the two of you make!! I see you are still tracking all of my posts. And that's still creepy. Have you thought about getting a life? Maybe on a "more productive" site? Okay, you can be Toots if you insist. It is actually more fitting for you than me.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
You are just plain stupid. Some idiots make a web site up, pretend to be against the government, and then plants disinfo everywhere, and you proclaim it the truth. It is not hard to see what is going on here. The CIA really needs to hire some more clever people, but that will be kind of hard since smart people will avoid them like the plague.
God is always good!
Since this, since that, since, since, since. Enough! Since this or that it is true doesn't mean this is true! Damn, did you fail logic 101 in school? Oh I forgot, you didn't go to school!
God is always good!
No, pinhead, the computer does that. When you lie, it displays records that say what actually happened, vs. what your clouded brain claims happened. Now this one time, you can tell me what post # "I don't care about AGAviator" you're on today, so I don't have to get the computer say you're a liar. LOLOL!!!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sounds like the MO of people saying only they know how nefarious and complex the USG web of conspiracies is.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events. I no longer trust either of your two respective posts, FL and O_I posts. Both of you are liars and deceitful POS. What is your problem Buck? A disagreement upon an issue means you have different points of view. Neither does being factually wrong on a point equate to a lie it means that I was wrong on a point. So far I have twice conceded your point that Hanjour did somehow manage to get a Commercial Pilot Certificate. Because I don't think he deserved it and was an incompetent pilot does raise legitimate questions on what circumstances prevailed for him to get that license. If you don't like my qualifications on the point - well, tough. Deal with it - I disagree that he was qualified to receive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. Deal with that. That is what all the facts indicate. His instructors repeatedly stated that as a professional opinion etc., .... So, a disagreement is NOT a lie - except perhaps in the buckieverse. It does not mean someone is lying merely because they do not agree with you or drink the same flavor of kool-aid. I do have to admit, and apologize, that I have been a little rough on you over the last couple of threads, but it is not like you did not provoke me. However, I'll try to be a good boy.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
Yes, this one time I can spell it out for you. Responding to an arrogant stranger on a forum doesn't imply that I care at all. This is yet another stupid ASSumption on your part. Toying with your massive ego is FUNNY. It provides a plethora of opportunites for laugher. I care about laughing at you, but that is the extent of my caring. If you had an itoa of sense your computer would tell you that. Carry on with lying to yourself that I "care" deeply, Toots. The computer will confirm that I'm consistently laughing at you. : )
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
You are a lying POS buck. I admitted I made a mistake once or twice, but never LIED about anything. Almost EVERYTHING you post is a LIE. You lie about people, you lie about what they've said, and you fabricate things out of thin air. Yet you have not ONCE admitted doing so, instead, you call those who speak the truth liars, and side with another character here who has about the same integrity as you.
You come across as a TRUE disinfo artist there pal. You seem to have targetted myself and Original_Intent because we were both posting some info that your bosses were getting a bit concerned about apparently. It's obvious that you're trying your best to destroy our credibility. It's obvious that you are nothing more than a totally dishonest little turd who is more than likely getting paid to do his masters' bidding. If you're not getting paid to be an asshole, perhaps you just ARE an asshole who gets his jollies by pissing other people off. That IS one thing I've noticed about you, in that you like to get people REALLY upset then sit back and watch the fireworks. Maybe you are just one sick old man with too much time on his hands, who knows.
The computer confirms you're a Half Truther half wit, making up one excuse after another why something you've just said you do, is contradicted by what you actually do. Like putting out thousands of words to someone you "don't care about," oh wait a minute I replied to your thousands of words so that's supposed to mean something, oh wait a minute I cite the extent of your lying by quickly looking at posting records, so that means I'm stalking you, oh wait a minute, your thousands of words are because you're laughing at me. What a lying shapeshifting maroon.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And I've repeatedly said the issue is not whether he was a competent pilot, who must have a high standard to survive numerous danger factors intact, but a competent suicide hijacker, able to take over an already airborne craft, navigate it to a predetermined target, and crash it at high speeds into the target. To which you've never given any satisfactory response. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As opposed to a full truther, full wit? Even so, better than being a 1/100 truther.
God is always good!
Your distinction is one without a difference. It is gobbledygook. It is not proven even that Hanjour was behind the stick and that is at best an unproven hypothesis. And the maneuvers that plane went through are well beyond any skill evidenced by Hanjour at any time on a type of aircraft which he was incompetent to fly, had never before flown, never trained on and in fact at no time had he ever flown ANY KIND of jet aircraft. Never in fact had he ever flown anything larger than a twin engine, propeller driven, 4 seat, Piper Apache, and by the testimony of his instructors who uniformly, without exception, characterized him as anywhere from barely able to fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 to unable to even safely fly that. Your confabulation of somehow supposing that he wanted to kill people so therefore he magically could fly belongs in the same category as "Peter Pan" it is, to put it kindly, balderash.
"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator
My how quickly you forget. First off, he more than likely could not have figured out how to change the course on the flight management computer, which HAD to have been used since the autopilot was on, and he couldn't have pulled off the manuevers witnessed by not just the air traffic controllers at Dulles International, but manuevers that had to be performed to strike the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall as it did in light of the trajectory and the damage. He didn't CRASH the airplane, he allegedly flew it INTO the Pentagon wall. He COULD have crashed it into the roof (an area of 22 football fields), possibly taking out Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, and/or a LARGE number of other people. But no, whoever was flying the aircraft went to great lengths to hit the LEAST occupied section of the Pentagon, and did so by pulling off an aerodynamically impossible manuever, ie. flying 20 feet off the ground in a 757 at 530 mph. To which you've never given any satisfactory response. You know that is untrue. Both myself and Original_Intent have repeatedly explained to you that are you wrong, he DID NOT CRASH the plane, ie. an uncontrolled descent hitting the ground, nor did he simply dive and hit the Pentagon, which he COULD have done and WOULD have done if whoever was flying the aircraft wanted to inflict maximum damage and casualties. There's also the fact he would have needed to know who to work the flight management computer, yet he never trained on it, and never saw the inside of a 757 cockpit before. It's also apparent (from the earlier thread) you either don't know what VORTAC is, or are purposely misrepresenting how it is used in navigation. You claim a pilot only needs to enter a 4 digit code and it tells the pilot how to steer the plane. That is ludricrous. For one, you need TWO VORTAC signals, thus TWO frequencies need to be set into the VORTAC receiver, then by observing the bearings between the aircraft and the 2 VORTAC stations, and taking the air speed into consideration, the current position can be calculated by triangulation and fixed onto a navigational map. THEN a heading between the current position and destination can be plotted, and the heading changed in order to fly towards the destination. Yet all that is a moot point since autopilot was engaged for most of the flight, including where the heading was changed to turn the plane around and bring it to Washington DC. In order to do that, the Flight Management System had to be utilized, and it is very unlikely that Hanjour would have known how to do that.
Wrong. According to one report the flight computer was turned off mid flight, had its destination changed, turned back on after course change. So somebody knew enough to know when the computer should be turned off, why it should be turned off, how to turn it off, how to change the computer programming, how to turn it back on after the changes. That speaks of someone who knew how to use the computer. You can learn the computer from simulators or manuals or videos and other teaching materials, if it is considered that important. I've stated that several times, and you keep going back to your assertions that are simply not true. Another serious and deliberate error. You only need 1 signal and a radius along with a distance measurement. Two radials are only needed when you don't have distance and a Course Deviation Indicator which tells you exactly what heading you need to be on, as well as exactly how far to the nautical mile distance you are at any moment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, here is a dialysis machine that runs on camel power. We found dozens of them stationed all over the mountains in remote villages so MR. BIG can sleep in a different place each night like Yasser (That's My Baby!) Arafat used to do.
Not according to the people who actually spent thousands of man-hours researching the attacks. It is only unproven to you because you wish to ignore those conclusions without having any conclusions to replace them. Fot at least the 15th time, a 1/2 G turn is not beyond the skill of even a private pilot, while Hanjour at one time had a commercial pilot license. As a commercial pilot before he let his medical lapse Hanjour was authorized to become type certified by taking simulator lessons. For at least the 15th time, the principal instructor and person refusing to rent to Hanjour, Marcel Bernard, said there "was no doubt" Hanjour could have piloted a hijacked aircraft and crashed into a building with it. Bernard also confirms the biggest reason Hanjour was declined was Hanjour's failure to land the test plane by himself, which I repeatedly have said Your repeated failure to cite evidence that doesn't support your theory, even though it's found in the exact same places you cherry pick your quotes from, shows a consistent pattern of intellectual dishonesty. And "there is no doubt" that you are neglecting this piece of information because it undermines the theory you're trying to push. Hanjour paid $400 cash and provided a valid pilot's license He failed because he showed problems landing the airplane and the flight instructor had to help him, Bernard said. But Hanjour's problems were nothing unusual, Bernard said. “There’s no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it.” ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And the instructors who did have personal experience with Hanjour said that it was his landings, which I have told you over and over again are the most difficult parts of piloting, and which he as a suicide hijacker wouldn't be interested in anyway, that he was "unable to fly safely" doing. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, I think I hurt your tender little feelings AGain. lol Didn't you say you need to find a "more productive" site where posters will appreciate you? Speaking of lying, aren't you the one cherry picking truther sites for a piece of data to make an argument, then making yawner shoot the messenger posts about the people contributing to those sites? Why yes, that IS you. One need not dig much deeper than your source links to debunk you. And, yes, the database confirms, I'm laughing at you, mostly because your ego is too big to laugh with you and because you are sooooooooo emotional. Might I suggest a Midol? Poor Toots can't even persuade other posters that they like him, no matter how much spittle hits his monitor.
"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations
According to one report the flight computer was turned off mid flight, had its destination changed, turned back on after course change. No, YOU are wrong. The NTSB chart indicates that the autopilot was engaged the entire time the "hijackers" turned the plane around over Ohio, and set it to fly towards Washington DC. A little before reaching the midway point between Ohio and Washington, it was turned off momentarily, the course was corrected as it was a bit off, and then turned back on. Not an obvious set of commands for someone who doesn't know the first thing about a Boeing 757 flight management computer. So somebody knew enough to know when the computer should be turned off, why it should be turned off, how to turn it off, how to change the computer programming, how to turn it back on after the changes. That speaks of someone who knew how to use the computer. You dont't really "shut off the computer", it is responsible for controlling critical aircraft systems. Turning off the autopilot is a function of the flight management computer, but you don't turn it off to do that. And as I said, the autopilot was NOT disengaged when a new course for Washington was entered into the computer, whoever flew it knew enough about the sytem as to utilize the computer correctly. Thing is, Hanjour had never laid his eyes on a Boeing 757 flight management computer his entire life, so it couldn't have been him that did all that. He couldn't have learned it on a simulator, since he tried taking lessons on a 737 simulator which besides utilizing a totally different flight managment system from the 757, he usually skipped class and when he WAS present, did extremely poorly since he could barely understand English, and he was a very poor student as well as a very poor "pilot" to begin with.
No, YOU are wrong. [quote]It was turned off momentarily, the course was corrected as it was a bit off, and then turned back on[/quote] Exactly what I said.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh, I think I hurt your tender little feelings... No, pants on fire Half Tw00fer, as usual you cherry pick and ignore any words in a quote that will make you look like the SOS you are. The computer confirms you're a Half Truther half wit, making up one excuse after another why something you've just said you do, is contradicted by what you actually do. Like putting out thousands of words to someone you "don't care about," oh wait a minute I replied to your thousands of words so that's supposed to mean something, oh wait a minute I cite the extent of your lying by quickly looking at posting records, so that means I'm stalking you, oh wait a minute, your thousands of words are because you're laughing at me... AGAviator posted on 2010-07-29 2:13:26 ET ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You only need 1 signal and a radius along with a distance measurement. Two radials are only needed when you don't have distance and a Course Deviation Indicator which tells you exactly what heading you need to be on, as well as exactly how far to the nautical mile distance you are at any moment. Granted a VORTAC aid will give you your bearing in terms of where the plane is in relation to the VORTAC transmitter, ie. distance and heading in relation to the VORTAC station. Ok, so I guess I was looking up some older info in terms of using two VORTAC stations to triangulate current position. You still need to plot your course using your current position as determined by the VORTAC and a navigational map, taking your current air speed into account in order to determine where you'll be in several minutes (waypoint). THEN, once your new heading is determined, you can change the heading once you've hit the location you've calculated as your waypoint and utilize the VORTAC to guide you to your new destination. It won't determine the new course for you obviously, you need to do that yourself. Hanjours instructors said he had very poor navigational skills, so I doubt he could have done all that if he needed to, but he obviously didn't need to since the plane was flown on autopilot, thus utilizing the flight management computer.
Exactly what I said. But that is AFTER the initial course change was made, so not only did the operator of the aircraft know how to change the course on the computer while the autopilot was active, but knew how to disengage the autopilot, use some other navigational aid, make a course correction, then reengage autopilot.
There is close to zero hard evidence that Hanjour was piloting that plane, if even that much. There IS a LOT of evidence which indicates he couldn't have possibly piloted the aircraft, due to his lack of skill, and his extremely poor airmanship. Bernard said. “There’s no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it.” He either apparently thought that Hanjour had hijacked the aircraft upon takeoff from Dulles and crashed it into the roof of the Pentagon, or he lied, since it took QUITE a bit more than just "pointing the aircraft at the Pentagon" to fly a 757 from Ohio, descend, perform some tight manuevers comparable to that of a military aircraft, then fly at treetop level at over 400 mph, dropping to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph without touching the Pentagon lawn and hitting the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall.
I appreciate the candor. I have flown craft hundreds of miles using one VORTAC without using any Flight Computers. If you're interested in the arrival time. If you want to get there ASAP before any possible interception you'd just concentrate on heading in the right direction and getting ready for the crash. People making aircraft equipment for larger planes try to make them as simple as possible to use, not as complicated. That's why I've been consistently saying it's harder to fly a small craft without the equipment than the larger planes which have it. This is also why the Chief Instructor who wouldn't rent the 172 to Hanjour, said his lack of small plane skills while having a commercial certificate wasn't that unusual. Some large aircraft have flown untended for several hours and without pilot oversight. The pilots were tired and let the autopilots do the work. They were punished when this was found out, but the planes flew safely. You can't get away with this on a small craft.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Even though that in itself isn't true, since Hanjour couldn't do much of anything right, according to Bernard's own employees, Hanjour didn't just LAND the aircraft, he came down over the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph and descended to 20 feet off the ground, where if his wheels were down they would have touched the lawn. Aircraft are not designed to land at 530 mph, yet that is basically what Hanjour allegedly did, on a heavy multi-engine jumbo jet, yet he had never flown ANY sort of jet before in his life. Here's the actual reports concerning Bernard and what his employees said; From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun You're neglecting the part where you need to know what IS the heading you need to fly. You can't just pick a number from 0 to 359 and fly that direction. That's why there's such a thing called NAVIGATION. You should be smart enough to know that.
Ok, since it's so simple, please detail the steps required to change the course on a Boeing 757 flight management computer while autopilot is engaged.
If you can't control a single engine Cessna 172, you won't be able to control a multi-engine Piper Apache, yet that is what Hanjour supposedly tested on for his Commercial License. Multi-engine craft require more knowledge and more skill to fly, since you have more than just one engine that provides forward thrust, and that thrust needs to be tuned properly in order for the aircraft to handle the various situations it'll encounter during flight. He never was qualified to fly ANY sort of aircraft to begin with, but the fact he couldn't control a Cessna 172 indicates he could NEVER in a million years control a heavy multi-engine jumbo jet, especially considering he never flew ANY sort of jet before in his life.
Yes, and they KNEW how to fly the aircraft, were qualified on that aircraft, and were of course fully aware of how to use the flight management computer and how to engage autopilot.
Boeing 757 Simulator Program Website Knock yourself out.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's where the Course Deviation Indicator comes in. You get the radial from the VORTAC that gives you zero deviation right or left and compare the heading of the aircraft with it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL, you STILL NEED TO KNOW THE COURSE in order to set the equipment to guide you on that course. What are you suggesting, that it read Hanjour's mind and knew where he wanted to go? C'mon dude, give it up.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestYou have no REASON to say that to me, pal.. go play with yourself... which is fairly common reading your silly posts that go nowhere.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#43. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#23)
What bothers me about your BS posts is that you NEVER produce a serious FACT to support your own windy BS.. You are just a stinky poster, dude.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#44. To: AGAviator, abraxas, buckeroo (#32)
Presuming you and a handful of Half Truthers have a death grip on this site is in fact an a$$umption.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#45. To: AGAviator (#41)
#46. To: TwentyTwelve, buckeroo (#39)
As our governments assert that they are doing everything in their power to dismantle the global terror network, the reality is the exact opposite. The criminal intelligence networks assembled it, they sponsored it and they continue to fund it using our tax dollars. As any good criminal should, they have a middleman to provide plausible deniability. That middleman is the ISI and the military dictatorship of Pakistan.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#47. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#45)
(Edited)
You are so insignificant to me that I can't recall. Oh
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#48. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#43)
All you do here is insult people buck.
#49. To: AGAviator, Buckaroo (#47)
#50. To: AGAviator (#1)
(Edited)
Wikipedia debunks claims OBL has died, at the same time revealing hundreds of serious incidents not reported, or denied by, by US occupation forces.
#51. To: AGAviator (#7)
(Edited)
Since the leaks to Wikileaks are violently objected to by the USG and US military, since the founder of Wikileaks has been the target of kidnapping attempts and criminal investigations, since one of the people alleged to have given Wikileaks information is facing serious military criminal charges, and since Wikileaks information reflects unfavorably upon the US war effort and undermines support for it, your allegations of planted info make no sense when seen in context.
#52. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#49)
I see you are still tracking all of my posts
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#53. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#50)
Some idiots make a web site up, pretend to be against the government, and then plants disinfo everywhere, and you proclaim it the truth.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#54. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, christine (#48)
All you do here is insult people buck.
#55. To: AGAviator (#52)
you can tell me what post # "I don't care about AGAviator" you're on today, so I don't have to get the computer say you're a liar. (sic)
#56. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#48)
Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#57. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#48)
have admitted your own lies and deceit
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#58. To: abraxas (#55)
(Edited)
The computer will confirm that I'm consistently laughing at you. : )
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#59. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#54)
Deal with it - I disagree that he was qualified to receive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. Deal with that. That is what all the facts indicate. His instructors repeatedly stated that as a professional opinion etc., .... So, a disagreement is NOT a lie
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#60. To: AGAviator (#58)
Half Truther half wit
#61. To: AGAviator (#59)
#62. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#59)
And I've repeatedly said the issue is not whether he was a competent pilot, who must have a high standard to survive numerous danger factors intact, but a competent suicide hijacker, able to take over an already airborne craft, navigate it to a predetermined target, and crash it at high speeds into the target.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#63. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#62)
My how quickly you forget. First off, he more than likely could not have figured out how to change the course on the flight management computer, which HAD to have been used since the autopilot was on,
There's also the fact he would have needed to know who to work the flight management computer, yet he never trained on it, and never saw the inside of a 757 cockpit before.
For one, you need TWO VORTAC signals, thus TWO frequencies need to be set into the VORTAC receiver, then by observing the bearings between the aircraft and the 2 VORTAC stations, and taking the air speed into consideration.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#64. To: FormerLurker (#5)
(Edited)
Yes, so where is the supporting evidence that bin Laden really is still alive?
#65. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#61)
(Edited)
It is not proven even that Hanjour was behind the stick and that is at best an unproven hypothesis.
And the maneuvers that plane went through are well beyond any skill evidenced by Hanjour
AT any time on a type of aircraft which he was incompetent to fly
Never in fact had he ever flown anything larger than a twin engine, propeller driven, 4 seat, Piper Apache, and by the testimony of his instructors who uniformly, without exception, characterized him as anywhere from barely able to fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 to unable to even safely fly that.
(a) Is the most difficult part of piloting, and
(b) "Was not unusual," and
(c) Was not something a suicide hijacker would be interested in practicing much."The standard evaluation consists of one-to-one-and- a-half-hour flights east over the Chesapeake Bay area.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#66. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#61)
The testimony of his instructors who uniformly, without exception, characterized him as anywhere from barely able to fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 to unable to even safely fly that
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#67. To: AGAviator (#58)
What a lying shapeshifting maroon.
#68. To: AGAviator (#63)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#69. To: FormerLurker (#68)
According to one report the flight computer was turned off mid flight, had its destination changed, turned back on after course change.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#70. To: abraxas (#67)
(Edited)
What a lying shapeshifting maroon.
Actual Quote
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#71. To: AGAviator (#63)
Another serious and deliberate error.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#72. To: AGAviator (#69)
quote]It was turned off momentarily, the course was corrected as it was a bit off, and then turned back on[/quote]
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#73. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#65)
Not according to the people who actually spent thousands of man-hours researching the attacks. It is only unproven to you because you wish to ignore those conclusions without having any conclusions to replace them.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#74. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#71)
(Edited)
Ok, so I guess I was looking up some older info in terms of using two VORTAC stations to triangulate current position.
You still need to plot your course using your current position as determined by the VORTAC and a navigational map, taking your current air speed into account in order to determine where you'll be in several minutes (waypoint).
Hanjours instructors said he had very poor navigational skills, so I doubt he could have done all that if he needed to, but he obviously didn't need to since the plane was flown on autopilot, thus utilizing the flight management computer.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#75. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#65)
Bernard also confirms the biggest reason Hanjour was declined was Hanjour's failure to land the test plane by himself, which I repeatedly have said
In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#76. To: AGAviator (#74)
If you're interested in the arrival time. If you want to get there ASAP before any possible interception you'd just concentrate on heading in the right direction and getting ready for the crash.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#77. To: AGAviator (#74)
That's why I've been consistently saying it's harder to fly a small craft without the equipment than the larger planes which have it.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#78. To: AGAviator (#74)
This is also why the Chief Instructor who wouldn't rent the 172 to Hanjour, said his lack of small plane skills while having a commercial certificate wasn't that unusual.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#79. To: AGAviator (#74)
Some large aircraft have flown untended for several hours and without pilot oversight. The pilots were tired and let the autopilots do the work.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#80. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#77)
Detail the steps required to change the course on a Boeing 757 flight management computer while autopilot is engaged.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#81. To: FormerLurker (#76)
You're neglecting the part where you need to know what IS the heading you need to fly. You can't just pick a number from 0 to 359 and fly that direction.
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky
#82. To: AGAviator (#81)
That's where the Course Deviation Indicator comes in.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
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