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9/11
See other 9/11 Articles

Title: WikiLeaks Reveals Al Qaeda Boss Was Seen at Village Meetings - Despite CIA Claims They Were Clueless
Source: Daily Mail Online
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art ... den-seen-village-meetings.html
Published: Jul 28, 2010
Author: Mail Foreign Service
Post Date: 2010-07-28 15:17:40 by AGAviator
Keywords: None
Views: 4561
Comments: 280

Glimpses of Bin Laden: Now WikiLeaks reveals Al Qaeda boss was seen at village meetings - despite CIA claims that they were clueless

By Mail Foreign Service

Last updated at 10:16 AM on 27th July 2010

Bin Laden spotted in meeting with Taliban chief in 2006
Al Qaeda boss 'had hand' in plot to poison UK troops
Secret files claim British soldiers shot 16 children
Military experts: leaks could put our troops in peril
Taliban missile brought down Chinook helicopter

'Spotted': Among 91,000 leaked U.S. documents are claims that Osama Bin Laden was last seen in 2006

Secret files leaked about the war in Afghanistan have revealed tantalising glimpses of Osama Bin Laden despite public CIA claims that they are clueless as to the whereabouts of the Al Qaeda boss.

The claims are among 91,000 U.S. military records obtained by whistleblowing website WikiLeaks.

Leon Panetta, director of the CIA, said last month that there have been no firm leads on Bin Laden's whereabouts since the 'early 2000s'.

But a 'threat report' from the International Security Assistance Force regional command (north) on suicide bombers in August 2006 suggested Bin Laden had been attending regular meetings in villages on the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

It said: 'Reportedly a high-level meeting was held where six suicide bombers were given orders for an operation in northern Afghanistan. These meetings take place once every month.'

According to the Guardian, which has received the documents, the report went on: 'The top four people in these meetings are Mullah Omar [the Taliban leader], Osama Bin Laden, Mullah Dadullah and Mullah [Baradar].'

If true, it could mean forces came close to having the opportunity to wipe out the senior leadership of the Afghan insurgency that has so far claimed the lives of 320 British soldiers.

The war logs also show that Bin Laden had a hand in a plot to poison coalition forces by adding a powder to food and drink consumed by troops as they passed through villages.

Toll: An Afghan girl in hospital in Helmand after being injured by coalition forces in an air strike in 2007

These documents also suggest coalition forces have killed hundreds of civilians in so-called 'blue on white' incidents which were never reported.

IS THIS SOLDIER BEHIND LEAKS?
This fresh-faced soldier could be responsible for leaking a massive file of secret military documents revealing chilling details of the Afghanistan war and civilian deaths.

The leak is said to be U.S. Army intelligence expert Bradley Manning, 22, who boasted he had downloaded hundreds of thousands of documents, according to computer hacker Adrian Lamo.

The 22-year-old, pictured above, is said to have contacted Lamo out of the blue and then claimed he had saved high-security files onto CDs, ready to hand to Wikileaks, while pretending to listen to Lady Gaga.

'Hillary Clinton and several thousand diplomats around the world are going to have a heart attack when they wake up one morning and find an entire repository of classified foreign policy is available, in searchable format, to the public,' he apparently told Mr Lamo.

The hacker got in touch with the U.S. military and later met with them in Starbucks to hand over a printout of his conversations with Manning.

Manning has already been charged over a separate leak of a classified helicopter cockpit video earlier this month.

It showed U.S. soldiers laughing as they gunned down Afghan civilians and two journalists in a firefight in Baghdad in 2007.

He was picked up in Iraq, where he was working.

Manning is said to be locked up in a military prison after being shipped across the border to Kuwait.

He faces trial by court martial and, if found guilty, a heavy jail sentence.

Mr Lamo believes Manning did not work alone, saying he did not have ‘the technological expertise’ to carry out the gathering and leaking of the documents.

'I believe somebody would have had to have been of assistance to him,’ he said.

They include claims that 16 children were among those shot or bombed in error by British troops.

The leaked military logs also reveal how a secret 'black' unit of crack special forces hunt down Taliban leaders for 'kill or capture' without trial - and voice concerns that Pakistani intelligence and Iran are supporting the insurgents.

Downing Street said it 'would lament all unauthorised releases of classified material' and the White House condemned the ' irresponsible' leak of the files.

And military and intelligence experts warned yesterday that the leaks could imperil the lives of British forces in Afghanistan.

Colonel Stuart Tootal, who in 2006 commanded 3rd Battalion Parachute Regiment in Helmand Province - where more than 320 UK soldiers have been killed - said the information 'could impact on the security of our soldiers'.

He insisted Nato forces now put a 'huge emphasis' on avoiding civilian casualties.

Tory MP Patrick Mercer, a former Army captain, said: 'Although much of this information is in the public domain, the details are particularly damaging to the credibility of the coalition.

'Our enemies will be quick to exploit the propaganda element of it.

'If there are details of operational matters - locations, equipment, troops movements, resources - then soldiers' lives could be placed at risk.'

Details of the secret files, detailing military operations between 2004 and 2009, were published yesterday by the Guardian, New York times and Germany's Der Spiegel while more than 75,000 records were made available on the WikiLeaks website.

The files list 144 incidents involving Afghan civilian casualties, in which 195 died and 174 were injured.

They detail coalition forces - fearful of suicide bombers - shooting unarmed drivers and civilian motorcyclists, and record an incident when French troops opened fire at a bus full of children because it came too close to a military convoy.

Other leaked documents record a U.S. patrol machine-gunning a bus, killing or wounding 15 passengers, and Polish troops mortaring a village, killing a wedding party including a pregnant woman.

They reveal details of undercover operations by a U.S. special forces unit named task Force 373, formed to hunt down and kill or capture taliban and Al Qaeda commanders.

According to Julian Assange, the founder of the website, the files contain details of 'thousands' of potential war crimes.

At a press conference in London, he defended his decision to publish the files and claimed the high level of civilian casualties reported was in fact lower than the true figure because military personnel 'downplayed' the number or reported them as insurgent deaths.

Mr Assange said: 'We have tried hard to make sure that this material does not put innocents at harm.

'All the material is over seven months old so it is of no current operational consequence, even though it may be of very significant investigative consequence.

'The revelation of abuse by the U.S. and coalition forces may cause Afghans to be upset, and rightly so.

‘If governments don't like populations being upset, they should treat them better, not conceal abuses.'

Professor Malcolm Chalmers, a defence expert at the Royal United Services Institute think tank, said that the leaks could undermine already faltering public support for the war.

Read more: Bin Laden Seen Village Meetings


Poster Comment:

There has never been any proof that Bin Laden has died or been killed. He has repeatedly been reported to be in a very rugged area surrounded by people fiercely loyal to him.

OBL is not and has never been in direct command of operations. He sees himself as someone providing motivation and logistical support to people actually carrying out day to day operations.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: buckeroo, turtle (#0)

Wikipedia debunks claims OBL has died, at the same time revealing hundreds of serious incidents not reported, or denied by, by US occupation forces.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   15:20:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: AGAviator (#0)

Osama died in 2001. The man is dead. Please do not bother replying.

The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie

Horse  posted on  2010-07-28   15:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Horse (#2) (Edited)

Claims need to be supported and sourced.

Wikileaks has tens of thousands of facts they have published vetted and researched, which were previously unknown.

Conspiracy theorists claiming "Obama died in 2001" have nothing.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   15:44:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: AGAviator (#0)

Mr Lamo believes Manning did not work alone, saying he did not have ‘the technological expertise’ to carry out the gathering and leaking of the documents....

Hmmmm.....

scrapper2  posted on  2010-07-28   15:46:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: AGAviator (#3)

Claims need to be supported and sourced.

Yes, so where is the supporting evidence that bin Laden really is still alive?

That was more than likely planted info, perhaps the biggest reason the "leaks" occured in the first place.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   15:56:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: FormerLurker (#5)

Yes, so where is the supporting evidence that bin Laden really is still alive?

I have heard that Judge Bolton has dismissed the new AZ law, that OBL is still flipping hamburgers at one of the McDonald's publick stands in Tuscon AZ.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-28   16:04:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#5)

That was more than likely planted info, perhaps the biggest reason the "leaks"

Since the leaks to Wikileaks are violently objected to by the USG and US military, since the founder of Wikileaks has been the target of kidnapping attempts and criminal investigations, since one of the people alleged to have given Wikileaks information is facing serious military criminal charges, and since Wikileaks information reflects unfavorably upon the US war effort and undermines support for it, your allegations of planted info make no sense when seen in context.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   16:10:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: buckeroo (#6)

OBL is still flipping hamburgers at one of the McDonald's publick stands in Tuscon AZ.

Was Elvis seen working the fries?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   16:13:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: AGAviator (#7)

your allegations of planted info make no sense when seen in context

I'm sure the USG would be forthcoming with admissions it was planted info if it was, right?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   16:14:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: FormerLurker (#5)

Claims need to be supported and sourced.

Yes, so where is the supporting evidence that bin Laden really is still alive?

That was more than likely planted info, perhaps the biggest reason the "leaks" occured in the first place.

Always look for the wheels within wheels. Yes, Bin Laden has likely been dead since somewhere around Dec. 2001 to Jan. 2002.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   16:27:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Original_Intent (#10)

If OBL were alive, his propaganda value in making frequent appearances would be priceless.

__________________________________________________________
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"

“The best and first guarantor of our neutrality and our independent existence is the defensive will of the people…and the proverbial marksmanship of the Swiss shooter. Each soldier a good marksman! Each shot a hit!”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941

X-15  posted on  2010-07-28   16:33:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Original_Intent, FormerLurker, AGAviator (#10) (Edited)

Always look for the wheels within wheels. Yes, Bin Laden has likely been dead since somewhere around Dec. 2001 to Jan. 2002.

So you and Lurker both think that a)the leaks were planned so that b) planted info suggesting that OBL was still alive would c) be reason enough( despite the fact there were other very damaging to the war effort revelations ) for gubment to justify to the grass eaters that the Afghan War was still a necessary thingy to pursue?

Hmmmm...interesting theory...especially since most of the damaging revelations appear to involve US and coalition forces plugging innocent Afghan civilians who the grass eaters by and large could care less about....

scrapper2  posted on  2010-07-28   16:46:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle, scrapper2 (#9) (Edited)

I'm sure the USG would be forthcoming with admissions it was planted info if it was, right?

Since this story about OBL is one single item in 90,000+ other items, and the 90,000+ other items - and an additional 15,000+ on their way - show the USG sytematically killing civilians, denying and covering up hundreds of misdeeds, and pouring billions of dollars trying to buy its enemies, who then use those billions to finance attacks against the US, what purpose is served by planting this severely unfavorable info?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   16:51:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: X-15 (#11)

If OBL were alive, his propaganda value in making frequent appearances would be priceless

Not if he gets captured.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   16:53:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: AGAviator (#13)

what purpose is served by planting this severely unfavorable info?

What purpose do the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan serve?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   17:14:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: scrapper2, FormerLurker, AGAviator (#12)

Hmmmm...interesting theory...especially since most of the damaging revelations appear to involve US and coalition forces plugging innocent Afghan civilians who the grass eaters by and large could care less about....

That's the thing, MOST people don't seem to care anymore, and/or feel powerless to do anything about it if they did.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   17:17:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: FormerLurker (#16)

That's the thing, MOST people don't seem to care anymore, and/or feel powerless to do anything about it if they did.

Why should anyone care about the basic issues of governance? You are too worried about cockamamie BS... of and about your posts to deliver a straightforward answer.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-28   17:21:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: FormerLurker (#15)

What purpose do the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan serve?

(raises hand) To keep Israel a Free and Democratic Nation and prevent another Holocaust!!!

__________________________________________________________
"This man is Jesus,” shouted one man, spilling his Guinness as Barack Obama began his inaugural address. “When will he come to Kenya to save us?"

“The best and first guarantor of our neutrality and our independent existence is the defensive will of the people…and the proverbial marksmanship of the Swiss shooter. Each soldier a good marksman! Each shot a hit!”
-Schweizerische Schuetzenzeitung (Swiss Shooting Federation) April, 1941

X-15  posted on  2010-07-28   17:22:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: buckeroo (#17)

Why should anyone care about the basic issues of governance? You are too worried about cockamamie BS... of and about your posts to deliver a straightforward answer.

So explain to us what YOU are doing to show you care buck. Are you leading some sort of political rally to fire the people up, or just sitting at home bitching at people who discuss this sort of thing?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   17:33:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: X-15 (#18)

What purpose do the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan serve?

(raises hand) To keep Israel a Free and Democratic Nation and prevent another Holocaust!!!

LOL!!!!!

What a naughty boy you are, X-15!

hehehehehehe.....

scrapper2  posted on  2010-07-28   17:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: FormerLurker (#19)

So explain to us what YOU are doing to show you care buck

Oh sure, its all my fault while you while the hours away on a chit-chat channel believing in government conspiracies... man, you are so ignorant, you should be regarded as a PURE puke when ANYONE viewing own posts.

You NEVER address the real issues.. an apathetic people built upon WW2... and you believe in conspiracies while the voters strip you of not just dignity but RIGHTS... meanwhile you believe some BS about government creating 9/11.

You are off-topic. You are full of BS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-28   17:43:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: scrapper2, FormerLurker (#12)

Always look for the wheels within wheels. Yes, Bin Laden has likely been dead since somewhere around Dec. 2001 to Jan. 2002.

So you and Lurker both think that a)the leaks were planned so that b) planted info suggesting that OBL was still alive would c) be reason enough( despite the fact there were other very damaging to the war effort revelations ) for gubment to justify to the grass eaters that the Afghan War was still a necessary thingy to pursue?

Hmmmm...interesting theory...especially since most of the damaging revelations appear to involve US and coalition forces plugging innocent Afghan civilians who the grass eaters by and large could care less about....

The intel people are perfectly capable of doing that. Assembling a package of information that is ultimately already known, and then planting disinfo in there. That way you get people accepting the disinfo because "it must be true it was leaked".

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   17:47:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Original_Intent (#22)

The intel people are perfectly capable of doing that. Assembling a package of information that is ultimately already known, and then planting disinfo in there. That way you get people accepting the disinfo because "it must be true it was leaked".

What bothers me about your BS posts is that you NEVER produce a serious FACT to support your own windy BS.. You are just a stinky poster, dude.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-28   17:52:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: buckeroo (#21)

You are off-topic. You are full of BS.

So I take that as an admission that you are simply sitting on YOUR fat ass, bitching at people on the Internet who ARE trying to shed light on things that MIGHT get people to wake up.

Just as I thought.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   17:57:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: FormerLurker (#24)

So I take that as an admission

You have no REASON to say that to me, pal.. go play with yourself... which is fairly common reading your silly posts that go nowhere.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-28   17:59:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: buckeroo (#23)

Uh Buck?

How many intelligence agencies are you aware of that broadcast their plans and programs?

How many intelligence agencies are you aware of that tell people "well we're gonna put together a package of disinfo for the Suckers and then leak it so it'll be credible"?

If you have so much trouble telling the difference between speculation and hard facts it is no wonder you are such a fount of repeated disinformation.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   18:15:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker (#25) (Edited)

So I take that as an admission

You have no REASON to say that to me, pal.. go play with yourself... which is fairly common reading your silly posts that go nowhere.

Hey Buck!

Solve the word puzzle and win a prize:

Make a complete sentence from the following:

Traffic

play

go

the

in.

Happy puzzling!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-28   18:18:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#19)

Why should anyone care about the basic issues of governance? You are too worried about cockamamie BS... of and about your posts to deliver a straightforward answer.

So explain to us what YOU are doing to show you care buck

Actually I think this is a correct observation.

If we think there are people who are stuck in side issues, we need to start tuning them out and proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   19:16:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: AGAviator (#28) (Edited)

If we think there are people who are stuck in side issues, we need to start tuning them out and proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results.

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out!!

Good luck!! Happy trails!! Namaste!! Adios!!

Proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results for you. Don't delay, act NOW. Run, run like the wind. God Speed!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-28   19:22:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#29)

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out!!

Why would that be, Half Truther?

Are you a$$suming you and a small cotiere of CT'ers have this site in a death grip, and will go on for the next 20 years chanting "911 was an inside job...911 was an inside job...911 was an inside job...911 was an inside job" with nothing to back it up other than the sound of your voices?

Uhm, in a word, no.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   20:27:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: AGAviator (#30)

If we think there are people who are stuck in side issues, we need to start tuning them out and proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results.

Just offering a few words of encouragement on your thoughts. You said you need to "proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results" for you. Well, I finally agree with you on something.

No assumptions, just words of encouragement. Aren't you going to make good on your words this time?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-28   20:31:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#31)

No assumptions, just words of encouragement.

Presuming you and a handful of Half Truthers have a death grip on this site is in fact an a$$umption.

Aren't you going to make good on your words this time?

Why certainly, and what's more I'll do them in ways that are actually effective as I see them.

It's clear from everything you say and do, you don't have a clue what works and what doesn't in reality. So getting hot and bothered over some fantasy you have and some methods you dream of, has close to zero likelihood of actually being selected by anyone with any sense.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   20:47:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: AGAviator (#32)

in fact an a$$umption.

You put the ASS in assumption. This is typical of your posts, wherein you interject idiotic ASSumptions that have no base or merit.

More ASSumptions about my "clue" and "reality" I see. Is that all you have, AG? Epic failure AGain.

Gee, there is NOTHING you could possible do or say to get me "hot and bothered" in any way.

Like I said, I'm offering encouragement for your "thoughts" about finding a site where you can actually think of yourself as "productive" perhaps even useful. Dream big, AG. That site is out there, just waiting for you to walk through the door. Hey, maybe they will enjoy your baseless ASSumptions over there. Wouldn't that be lovely? Maybe, just maybe, somebody could get "hot and bothered" by something you do or say.......but I wouldn't bet on it.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-28   20:57:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#33) (Edited)

Gee, there is NOTHING you could possible do or say to get me "hot and bothered" in any way.

Yah right.

Do a word dump of all your alleged posts to me, in exchanges which have almost always, if not 100% always, been initiated by ***you**** not me, and see how many thousands of adjectives, nouns, and verbs you've emitted in my direction.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA loser!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   21:10:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: AGAviator (#7)

your allegations of planted info make no sense when seen in context.

They make some sense when you look at their list of "steadfast supporters":

WikiLeaks would like to thank the following 18 steadfast supporters (unordered):


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-28   21:21:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Critter (#35)

Your allegations of planted info make no sense when seen in context.

They make some sense when you look at their list of "steadfast supporters":

The Wiki organization has a link on which anybody can send an anonymous donation through a 3rd party bank, and they encourage private readers to send what they can afford without making it a requirement.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   21:26:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: AGAviator (#36)

I guess you missed the point. Their list of steadfast supporters reads like a who's who list of government controlled propaganda outlets.


Waiting too late to oppose tyranny has always led to bloodshed.
Hair Extensions Five Towns Merrick Manhasset Roslyn Massapequa Amityville Wantagh Farmingdale East Meadow Long Island, NY

Critter  posted on  2010-07-28   21:29:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: AGAviator (#34)

Er, this IS a public forum, wherein people post to one another. That's the point. The only one whining about it not being "productive" is you. You've made as many posts to me as I have to you, but, unlike you, I don't read anything more into it than a public forum post.

Get a load of yourself!! A post on a public forum isn't anywhere near "hot and bothered"......put your ego in check as you are, once again, looking like an egotistical idiot. lol

More baseless ASSumptions. Isn't that "more productive" site just waiting for you and your big ol' ego to join in? Perhaps, they might enjoy your arrogance and sense of self importance. Like I said, they MIGHT get "hot and bothered" over something you say or do, but I wouldn't bet on it.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-28   21:32:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: AGAviator (#0)

www.infowars.com/wikileak...98war-on-terror%e2%80%99/

Wikileaks’ War Logs Highlight Global Intelligence Facade Of ‘War On Terror’

CIA funds ISI – ISI funds Taliban, Al Qaeda

Steve Watson Infowars.com Monday, Jul 26th, 2010

The Wikileaks Afghanistan War Logs, publicly released today, highlight and corroborate what we already know about the “war on terror” – it is a vast and decompartmentalised intelligence operation.

The London Guardian reports:

“A stream of U.S. military intelligence reports accuse Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) spy agency of arming, training and financing the Taliban insurgency since 2004, the war logs reveal, bringing fresh scrutiny on one of the war’s most contentious issues.”

The reports are said to have been mostly collated by junior officers relying on informants and Afghan officials, prompting one senior U.S. intelligence officer to describe them as a mixture of “rumours, bullshit and second-hand information”.

However, it has been common knowledge for years that the ISI created the Taliban and Al Qaeda as we now know them, acting in its capacity as a direct front for U.S. intelligence.

Before 9/11, Pakistan worked directly with the CIA to create the Taliban in Afghanistan. Selig Harrison from the Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars stated:

“The CIA made a historic mistake in encouraging Islamic groups from all over the world to come to Afghanistan. The U.S. provided $3 billion for building up these Islamic groups, and it accepted Pakistan’s demand that they should decide how this money should be spent.

The old associations between the intelligence agencies continue. The CIA still has close links with the ISI (Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence).

Today that money and those weapons have helped build up the Taliban, Harrison said. The Taliban are not just recruits from ‘madrassas’ (Muslim theological schools) but are on the payroll of the ISI. The Taliban are now “making a living out of terrorism.”

Harrison confirmed that the creation of the Taliban had been “actively encouraged by the ISI and the CIA and that Pakistan had been building up Afghan collaborators who would “sustain Pakistan”.

Al Qaeda was a joint CIA/ISI intelligence database of mujahudeen fighters they had recruited in the late 70s and eighties to fight the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

It was later revealed via de-classified Defence Intelligence Agency documents of 2001 that the DIA was aware that the ISI was sponsoring the Taliban and Al Qaeda, but the Bush Administration chose to ignore its findings.

B Raman, former additional secretary in the Cabinet Secretariat, analysed three recently de-classified DIA documents of 2001 relating to the Taliban and Al Qaeda and said, “From these documents, it is clear that the DIA knew of the ISI’s role in sponsoring not only the Taliban, but also the Al Qaeda.”

No surprise then that in 2003 two senior members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Richard G. Lugar, Republican of Indiana, and Joseph R. Biden Jr., Democrat of Delaware (now vice president), went on record to state that Pakistan’s ISI was sheltering Taliban fighters along the border, thus undermining the stability of Afghanistan.

The Senators told the New York Times that there was evidence that ISI might be helping the Taliban and Al Qaeda operatives along the border infiltrate into Afghanistan.

Then in 2005 CIA officer Gary Schroen, who spearheaded U.S.’ search for Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan, stated that ISI officials are very well aware of the whereabouts of the leadership of Al Qaeda, including Bin Laden himself.

The veteran CIA officer said that regardless of how much reward money America offers, “Bin Laden would not be captured and handed in” because the leadership of Pakistan, including Musharraf, are afraid of the internal political consequences.

Two days before 9/11, the leader of the Afghan Northern Alliance, Commander Ahmad Shah Masood, was assassinated. The Northern Alliance informed the Bush Administration that the ISI was allegedly implicated in the assassination, stating:

“A `Pakistani ISI-Osama-Taliban axis’ [was responsible] of plotting the assassination by two Arab suicide bombers…. `We believe that this is a triangle between Osama bin Laden, ISI, which is the intelligence section of the Pakistani army, and the Taliban,”

Thus the Afghans that would be fighting on the side of the U.S. in the upcoming war after 9/11 are on record with their belief that the ISI and Al Qaeda are intimately connected. Yet the Bush administration began operating with Pakistan and the ISI as an ally.

Not even the corporate media could whitewash these facts and so explained it away by alleging that U.S. officials had sought cooperation from Pakistan because it was the original backer of the Taliban, the hard-line Islamic leadership of Afghanistan accused by Washington of harboring Bin Laden.

Then the so called “missing link” came when it was revealed that the head of the ISI was the principal financier of the 9/11 hijackers.

In various terror attacks, alerts and foiled plots since 9/11, further links between Al Qaeda, the ISI and U.S. and British Intelligence have emerged.

As Professor Michel Chossudovsky has pointed out in his excellent expose, all these links are even corroborated by the House of Representatives International Relations Committee. A Statement in 2000 by Rep. Dana Rohrbacher, Hearing of The House International Relations Committee on “Global Terrorism And South Asia” highlighted that U.S. support funneled through the ISI to the Taliban and Osama bin Laden has been a consistent policy of the U.S. Administration since the end of the Cold War:

…[T]he United States has been part and parcel to supporting the Taliban all along, and still is let me add… You have a military government [of President Musharraf] in Pakistan now that is arming the Taliban to the teeth….Let me note; that [U.S.] aid has always gone to Taliban areas… We have been supporting the Taliban, because all our aid goes to the Taliban areas. And when people from the outside try to put aid into areas not controlled by the Taliban, they are thwarted by our own State Department… At that same moment, Pakistan initiated a major resupply effort, which eventually saw the defeat, and caused the defeat, of almost all of the anti-Taliban forces in Afghanistan.

In July 2007, Tom Fingar of the office of the Director of National Intelligence told a Congressional hearing that he believed the Bush administration was allowing the leadership of Al Qaeda to operate freely in Pakistan and had chosen not to disrupt its activities.

“It’s not that we lack the ability to go into that space, but we have chosen not to do so without the permission of the Pakistani government.” Fingar said.

Fingar’s claims were supported by the revelation that a secret military operation in early 2005 to capture senior members of Al Qaeda in Pakistan’s tribal areas was aborted at the last minute after top Bush administration officials decided it was too risky and could jeopardize relations with Pakistan.

“The U.S. has provided $5.6 billion in coalition support funds to Pakistan over the past five years, with zero accountability,” said Congressman Patrick Murphy, D-Pa., at the hearing.

“Why is Pakistan still being paid these large sums of money, even after publicly declaring that it is significantly cutting back patrols in the most important border area?” he asked.

Pakistan and the ISI is the go between of the global terror explosion. Pakistan’s military-intelligence apparatus, which literally created and sponsored the Taliban and Al Qaeda, is directly upheld and funded by the CIA. These facts are not even in dispute, neither in the media nor in government.

These facts were also recently highlighted by Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari, who admitted that the CIA and his country’s ISI together created the Taliban and are still providing support.

The Taliban’s spread into Pakistan has also been connected to intelligence driven plots to Balkanize the middle East.

When a whistleblower, Qari Zainuddin, a tribal leader of the South Waziristan, who defected from the Pakistani Taliban claimed that the group was working with U.S. intelligence to destabilize the country, he was assassinated just days later.

Last November, the LA Times, citing current and former U.S. officials, reported that the CIA has paid millions of dollars to the ISI since 9/11, accounting for as much as one-third of the foreign spy agency’s annual budget, and that the funding, initiated covertly under Bush, has continued under Obama.

A major London School of Economics study, released last year, also highlighted the ongoing relationship between the ISI and the Taliban.

The Pakistani ISI is a CIA front and controls terror cells at the discretion of the highest levels of the U.S. military-industrial complex.

There is a great need to perpetuate the mythical war on terror in order to maintain the pretext for the geopolitical genocide currently being undertaken by globalist advances into the middle east “rogue” (independent) nations.

As our governments assert that they are doing everything in their power to dismantle the global terror network, the reality is the exact opposite. The criminal intelligence networks assembled it, they sponsored it and they continue to fund it using our tax dollars. As any good criminal should, they have a middleman to provide plausible deniability. That middleman is the ISI and the military dictatorship of Pakistan.

TwentyTwelve  posted on  2010-07-28   22:12:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Critter (#37) (Edited)

Their list of steadfast supporters reads like a who's who list of government controlled propaganda outlets.

While you could claim that for Gannett and Washinton Post among others, ACLU and The Electronic Frontier Foundation - hardly.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   22:43:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: abraxas (#38)

A post on a public forum isn't anywhere near "hot and bothered"......put your ego in check as you are, once again, looking like an egotistical idiot. lol

When you follow me around the site with thousands of words of wordspam it certainly is, toots.

You've made as many posts to me as I have to you.

You start it, I finish it.

After your taking the low road, you then became the one sniveling and whining about "vulgar" replies to your pointless gaybanter and stream of insults.

If you want to pick up where we left off, just say so.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   22:47:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: buckeroo (#25)

You have no REASON to say that to me, pal.. go play with yourself... which is fairly common reading your silly posts that go nowhere.

I have EVERY reason in the world to say that to you, pal.

I've defended you on more than one occasion in the past, giving you the benefit of the doubt where others were not so forgiving. Recently you've been a total douchebag, and thrown more than a few hissy fits.

You can go to hell buck.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   22:49:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#23)

What bothers me about your BS posts is that you NEVER produce a serious FACT to support your own windy BS.. You are just a stinky poster, dude.

All you do here is insult people buck. You add nothing of value to a discussion, and appear to enjoy massive flame wars. It seems to be the ONLY reason you are here.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   22:55:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: AGAviator, abraxas, buckeroo (#32)

Presuming you and a handful of Half Truthers have a death grip on this site is in fact an a$$umption.

The only "Half Truthers" here are you and buck. Actually, you fluctuate between "No Truthers" and "Half Truthers", where usually you're in the "Barely Any Truth" category.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-28   22:59:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: AGAviator (#41)

Your ego really is at comical proportions.

Where did we leave off? You are so insignificant to me that I can't recall. Oh, yeah, you were going to find a site that is "more productive" than this one. Right?

Nobody follows you around. Nobody gets "hot and bothered" by your posts, it's more like NOT BOTHERED at all. As in, you don't even warrant a rise to dislike, it's a big zero in the feeling anything department. But, don't let that interrupt your delusions of mattering. lol

XOXOXO

Toots......hehehehehe

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-28   23:18:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: TwentyTwelve, buckeroo (#39)

As our governments assert that they are doing everything in their power to dismantle the global terror network, the reality is the exact opposite. The criminal intelligence networks assembled it, they sponsored it and they continue to fund it using our tax dollars. As any good criminal should, they have a middleman to provide plausible deniability. That middleman is the ISI and the military dictatorship of Pakistan.

The question is who is using whom the most.

I'd have to say that ever since Afghanistan, Pakistan has been using the US, because of American infamiliarity with regional politics, tribes, languages, history, and culture.

In 2001 America did not even have any people who could speak Pashtu. Now they are willing to pay interpreters with US citizenship and usually Afghan background $300,000 a year to be translators. However the interpreters are also big targets for the Taliban and can easily get killed if they come across the wrong people and don't have protection.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   23:36:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#45) (Edited)

You are so insignificant to me that I can't recall. Oh

Yup, Half Truther, that's why within the last 24 hours you've addressed 1 in 5 of your posts to me. And larger percentages including "attaboys" to other people posting to me, on previous days, weeks, and months.

Try practicing your lying on somebody dumb as you are.

Toots.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-28   23:48:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: FormerLurker, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#43)

All you do here is insult people buck.

Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events.

I no longer trust either of your two respective posts, FL and O_I posts. Both of you are liars and deceitful POS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-07-29   0:05:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: AGAviator, Buckaroo (#47)

Seriously, your ego is comical. Oh, now it's lying and dumb. Sounds like somebody got his little feelings hurt. lol

Maybe Buckie can lick your wounds. It's funny that you can't even make a post without including Buckie. What a dynamic duo the two of you make!!

I see you are still tracking all of my posts. And that's still creepy. Have you thought about getting a life? Maybe on a "more productive" site?

Okay, you can be Toots if you insist. It is actually more fitting for you than me.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   0:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: AGAviator (#1) (Edited)

Wikipedia debunks claims OBL has died, at the same time revealing hundreds of serious incidents not reported, or denied by, by US occupation forces.

You are just plain stupid. Some idiots make a web site up, pretend to be against the government, and then plants disinfo everywhere, and you proclaim it the truth.

It is not hard to see what is going on here. The CIA really needs to hire some more clever people, but that will be kind of hard since smart people will avoid them like the plague.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-29   0:30:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: AGAviator (#7) (Edited)

Since the leaks to Wikileaks are violently objected to by the USG and US military, since the founder of Wikileaks has been the target of kidnapping attempts and criminal investigations, since one of the people alleged to have given Wikileaks information is facing serious military criminal charges, and since Wikileaks information reflects unfavorably upon the US war effort and undermines support for it, your allegations of planted info make no sense when seen in context.

Since this, since that, since, since, since. Enough!

Since this or that it is true doesn't mean this is true! Damn, did you fail logic 101 in school?

Oh I forgot, you didn't go to school!

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-29   0:35:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#49)

I see you are still tracking all of my posts

No, pinhead, the computer does that.

When you lie, it displays records that say what actually happened, vs. what your clouded brain claims happened.

Now this one time, you can tell me what post # "I don't care about AGAviator" you're on today, so I don't have to get the computer say you're a liar.

LOLOL!!!!

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   0:37:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: RickyJ, buckeroo (#50)

Some idiots make a web site up, pretend to be against the government, and then plants disinfo everywhere, and you proclaim it the truth.

Sounds like the MO of people saying only they know how nefarious and complex the USG web of conspiracies is.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   0:40:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: buckeroo, FormerLurker, christine (#48)

All you do here is insult people buck.

Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events.

I no longer trust either of your two respective posts, FL and O_I posts. Both of you are liars and deceitful POS.

What is your problem Buck?

A disagreement upon an issue means you have different points of view. Neither does being factually wrong on a point equate to a lie it means that I was wrong on a point. So far I have twice conceded your point that Hanjour did somehow manage to get a Commercial Pilot Certificate. Because I don't think he deserved it and was an incompetent pilot does raise legitimate questions on what circumstances prevailed for him to get that license. If you don't like my qualifications on the point - well, tough. Deal with it - I disagree that he was qualified to receive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. Deal with that. That is what all the facts indicate. His instructors repeatedly stated that as a professional opinion etc., .... So, a disagreement is NOT a lie - except perhaps in the buckieverse.

It does not mean someone is lying merely because they do not agree with you or drink the same flavor of kool-aid.

I do have to admit, and apologize, that I have been a little rough on you over the last couple of threads, but it is not like you did not provoke me. However, I'll try to be a good boy.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   0:46:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: AGAviator (#52)

you can tell me what post # "I don't care about AGAviator" you're on today, so I don't have to get the computer say you're a liar. (sic)

Yes, this one time I can spell it out for you. Responding to an arrogant stranger on a forum doesn't imply that I care at all. This is yet another stupid ASSumption on your part.

Toying with your massive ego is FUNNY. It provides a plethora of opportunites for laugher. I care about laughing at you, but that is the extent of my caring. If you had an itoa of sense your computer would tell you that.

Carry on with lying to yourself that I "care" deeply, Toots. The computer will confirm that I'm consistently laughing at you. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   0:48:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent, AGAviator (#48)

Meanwhile, time after time you and your pal, O_I, have admitted your own lies and deceit PROVING your own indignity and incapability for any truth of and about discussion concerning contemporary events.

You are a lying POS buck. I admitted I made a mistake once or twice, but never LIED about anything. Almost EVERYTHING you post is a LIE. You lie about people, you lie about what they've said, and you fabricate things out of thin air.

Yet you have not ONCE admitted doing so, instead, you call those who speak the truth liars, and side with another character here who has about the same integrity as you.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   1:31:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: buckeroo, Original_Intent (#48)

have admitted your own lies and deceit

You come across as a TRUE disinfo artist there pal. You seem to have targetted myself and Original_Intent because we were both posting some info that your bosses were getting a bit concerned about apparently.

It's obvious that you're trying your best to destroy our credibility. It's obvious that you are nothing more than a totally dishonest little turd who is more than likely getting paid to do his masters' bidding.

If you're not getting paid to be an asshole, perhaps you just ARE an asshole who gets his jollies by pissing other people off. That IS one thing I've noticed about you, in that you like to get people REALLY upset then sit back and watch the fireworks.

Maybe you are just one sick old man with too much time on his hands, who knows.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   1:46:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: abraxas (#55) (Edited)

The computer will confirm that I'm consistently laughing at you. : )

The computer confirms you're a Half Truther half wit, making up one excuse after another why something you've just said you do, is contradicted by what you actually do.

Like putting out thousands of words to someone you "don't care about," oh wait a minute I replied to your thousands of words so that's supposed to mean something, oh wait a minute I cite the extent of your lying by quickly looking at posting records, so that means I'm stalking you, oh wait a minute, your thousands of words are because you're laughing at me.

What a lying shapeshifting maroon.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   2:13:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#54)

Deal with it - I disagree that he was qualified to receive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. Deal with that. That is what all the facts indicate. His instructors repeatedly stated that as a professional opinion etc., .... So, a disagreement is NOT a lie

And I've repeatedly said the issue is not whether he was a competent pilot, who must have a high standard to survive numerous danger factors intact, but a competent suicide hijacker, able to take over an already airborne craft, navigate it to a predetermined target, and crash it at high speeds into the target.

To which you've never given any satisfactory response.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   2:18:48 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: AGAviator (#58)

Half Truther half wit

As opposed to a full truther, full wit?

Even so, better than being a 1/100 truther.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2010-07-29   2:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: AGAviator (#59)

Your distinction is one without a difference. It is gobbledygook. It is not proven even that Hanjour was behind the stick and that is at best an unproven hypothesis. And the maneuvers that plane went through are well beyond any skill evidenced by Hanjour at any time on a type of aircraft which he was incompetent to fly, had never before flown, never trained on and in fact at no time had he ever flown ANY KIND of jet aircraft. Never in fact had he ever flown anything larger than a twin engine, propeller driven, 4 seat, Piper Apache, and by the testimony of his instructors who uniformly, without exception, characterized him as anywhere from barely able to fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 to unable to even safely fly that. Your confabulation of somehow supposing that he wanted to kill people so therefore he magically could fly belongs in the same category as "Peter Pan" it is, to put it kindly, balderash.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   2:36:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#59)

And I've repeatedly said the issue is not whether he was a competent pilot, who must have a high standard to survive numerous danger factors intact, but a competent suicide hijacker, able to take over an already airborne craft, navigate it to a predetermined target, and crash it at high speeds into the target.

My how quickly you forget. First off, he more than likely could not have figured out how to change the course on the flight management computer, which HAD to have been used since the autopilot was on, and he couldn't have pulled off the manuevers witnessed by not just the air traffic controllers at Dulles International, but manuevers that had to be performed to strike the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall as it did in light of the trajectory and the damage.

He didn't CRASH the airplane, he allegedly flew it INTO the Pentagon wall. He COULD have crashed it into the roof (an area of 22 football fields), possibly taking out Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, and/or a LARGE number of other people. But no, whoever was flying the aircraft went to great lengths to hit the LEAST occupied section of the Pentagon, and did so by pulling off an aerodynamically impossible manuever, ie. flying 20 feet off the ground in a 757 at 530 mph.

To which you've never given any satisfactory response.

You know that is untrue. Both myself and Original_Intent have repeatedly explained to you that are you wrong, he DID NOT CRASH the plane, ie. an uncontrolled descent hitting the ground, nor did he simply dive and hit the Pentagon, which he COULD have done and WOULD have done if whoever was flying the aircraft wanted to inflict maximum damage and casualties.

There's also the fact he would have needed to know who to work the flight management computer, yet he never trained on it, and never saw the inside of a 757 cockpit before.

It's also apparent (from the earlier thread) you either don't know what VORTAC is, or are purposely misrepresenting how it is used in navigation.

You claim a pilot only needs to enter a 4 digit code and it tells the pilot how to steer the plane. That is ludricrous.

For one, you need TWO VORTAC signals, thus TWO frequencies need to be set into the VORTAC receiver, then by observing the bearings between the aircraft and the 2 VORTAC stations, and taking the air speed into consideration, the current position can be calculated by triangulation and fixed onto a navigational map. THEN a heading between the current position and destination can be plotted, and the heading changed in order to fly towards the destination.

Yet all that is a moot point since autopilot was engaged for most of the flight, including where the heading was changed to turn the plane around and bring it to Washington DC. In order to do that, the Flight Management System had to be utilized, and it is very unlikely that Hanjour would have known how to do that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   2:55:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#62)

My how quickly you forget. First off, he more than likely could not have figured out how to change the course on the flight management computer, which HAD to have been used since the autopilot was on,

Wrong.

According to one report the flight computer was turned off mid flight, had its destination changed, turned back on after course change. So somebody knew enough to know when the computer should be turned off, why it should be turned off, how to turn it off, how to change the computer programming, how to turn it back on after the changes. That speaks of someone who knew how to use the computer.

There's also the fact he would have needed to know who to work the flight management computer, yet he never trained on it, and never saw the inside of a 757 cockpit before.

You can learn the computer from simulators or manuals or videos and other teaching materials, if it is considered that important.

I've stated that several times, and you keep going back to your assertions that are simply not true.

For one, you need TWO VORTAC signals, thus TWO frequencies need to be set into the VORTAC receiver, then by observing the bearings between the aircraft and the 2 VORTAC stations, and taking the air speed into consideration.

Another serious and deliberate error.

You only need 1 signal and a radius along with a distance measurement. Two radials are only needed when you don't have distance and a Course Deviation Indicator which tells you exactly what heading you need to be on, as well as exactly how far to the nautical mile distance you are at any moment.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   4:00:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: FormerLurker (#5) (Edited)

Yes, so where is the supporting evidence that bin Laden really is still alive?

Well, here is a dialysis machine that runs on camel power. We found dozens of them stationed all over the mountains in remote villages so MR. BIG can sleep in a different place each night like Yasser (That's My Baby!) Arafat used to do.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-07-29   6:42:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#61) (Edited)

It is not proven even that Hanjour was behind the stick and that is at best an unproven hypothesis.

Not according to the people who actually spent thousands of man-hours researching the attacks. It is only unproven to you because you wish to ignore those conclusions without having any conclusions to replace them.

And the maneuvers that plane went through are well beyond any skill evidenced by Hanjour

Fot at least the 15th time, a 1/2 G turn is not beyond the skill of even a private pilot, while Hanjour at one time had a commercial pilot license.

AT any time on a type of aircraft which he was incompetent to fly

As a commercial pilot before he let his medical lapse Hanjour was authorized to become type certified by taking simulator lessons.

Never in fact had he ever flown anything larger than a twin engine, propeller driven, 4 seat, Piper Apache, and by the testimony of his instructors who uniformly, without exception, characterized him as anywhere from barely able to fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 to unable to even safely fly that.

For at least the 15th time, the principal instructor and person refusing to rent to Hanjour, Marcel Bernard, said there "was no doubt" Hanjour could have piloted a hijacked aircraft and crashed into a building with it.

Bernard also confirms the biggest reason Hanjour was declined was Hanjour's failure to land the test plane by himself, which I repeatedly have said

(a) Is the most difficult part of piloting, and
(b) "Was not unusual," and
(c) Was not something a suicide hijacker would be interested in practicing much.

Your repeated failure to cite evidence that doesn't support your theory, even though it's found in the exact same places you cherry pick your quotes from, shows a consistent pattern of intellectual dishonesty.

And "there is no doubt" that you are neglecting this piece of information because it undermines the theory you're trying to push.

Hanjour Reloaded

"The standard evaluation consists of one-to-one-and- a-half-hour flights east over the Chesapeake Bay area.

Hanjour paid $400 cash and provided a valid pilot's license from Arizona, Bernard said.

He failed because he showed problems landing the airplane and the flight instructor had to help him, Bernard said.

But Hanjour's problems were nothing unusual, Bernard said. “There’s no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it.”

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   9:05:30 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#61)

The testimony of his instructors who uniformly, without exception, characterized him as anywhere from barely able to fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 to unable to even safely fly that

And the instructors who did have personal experience with Hanjour said that it was his landings, which I have told you over and over again are the most difficult parts of piloting, and which he as a suicide hijacker wouldn't be interested in anyway, that he was "unable to fly safely" doing.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   9:09:48 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: AGAviator (#58)

What a lying shapeshifting maroon.

Oh, I think I hurt your tender little feelings AGain. lol

Didn't you say you need to find a "more productive" site where posters will appreciate you?

Speaking of lying, aren't you the one cherry picking truther sites for a piece of data to make an argument, then making yawner shoot the messenger posts about the people contributing to those sites? Why yes, that IS you.

One need not dig much deeper than your source links to debunk you. And, yes, the database confirms, I'm laughing at you, mostly because your ego is too big to laugh with you and because you are sooooooooo emotional. Might I suggest a Midol? Poor Toots can't even persuade other posters that they like him, no matter how much spittle hits his monitor.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   10:50:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: AGAviator (#63)

According to one report the flight computer was turned off mid flight, had its destination changed, turned back on after course change.

No, YOU are wrong. The NTSB chart indicates that the autopilot was engaged the entire time the "hijackers" turned the plane around over Ohio, and set it to fly towards Washington DC. A little before reaching the midway point between Ohio and Washington, it was turned off momentarily, the course was corrected as it was a bit off, and then turned back on. Not an obvious set of commands for someone who doesn't know the first thing about a Boeing 757 flight management computer.

So somebody knew enough to know when the computer should be turned off, why it should be turned off, how to turn it off, how to change the computer programming, how to turn it back on after the changes. That speaks of someone who knew how to use the computer.

You dont't really "shut off the computer", it is responsible for controlling critical aircraft systems. Turning off the autopilot is a function of the flight management computer, but you don't turn it off to do that. And as I said, the autopilot was NOT disengaged when a new course for Washington was entered into the computer, whoever flew it knew enough about the sytem as to utilize the computer correctly.

Thing is, Hanjour had never laid his eyes on a Boeing 757 flight management computer his entire life, so it couldn't have been him that did all that.

He couldn't have learned it on a simulator, since he tried taking lessons on a 737 simulator which besides utilizing a totally different flight managment system from the 757, he usually skipped class and when he WAS present, did extremely poorly since he could barely understand English, and he was a very poor student as well as a very poor "pilot" to begin with.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   11:17:20 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: FormerLurker (#68)

According to one report the flight computer was turned off mid flight, had its destination changed, turned back on after course change.

No, YOU are wrong.

[quote]It was turned off momentarily, the course was corrected as it was a bit off, and then turned back on[/quote]

Exactly what I said.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   11:21:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: abraxas (#67) (Edited)

What a lying shapeshifting maroon.

Oh, I think I hurt your tender little feelings...

No, pants on fire Half Tw00fer, as usual you cherry pick and ignore any words in a quote that will make you look like the SOS you are.

Actual Quote

The computer confirms you're a Half Truther half wit, making up one excuse after another why something you've just said you do, is contradicted by what you actually do.

Like putting out thousands of words to someone you "don't care about," oh wait a minute I replied to your thousands of words so that's supposed to mean something, oh wait a minute I cite the extent of your lying by quickly looking at posting records, so that means I'm stalking you, oh wait a minute, your thousands of words are because you're laughing at me...

AGAviator posted on 2010-07-29 2:13:26 ET

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   11:27:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: AGAviator (#63)

Another serious and deliberate error.

You only need 1 signal and a radius along with a distance measurement. Two radials are only needed when you don't have distance and a Course Deviation Indicator which tells you exactly what heading you need to be on, as well as exactly how far to the nautical mile distance you are at any moment.

Granted a VORTAC aid will give you your bearing in terms of where the plane is in relation to the VORTAC transmitter, ie. distance and heading in relation to the VORTAC station.

Ok, so I guess I was looking up some older info in terms of using two VORTAC stations to triangulate current position.

You still need to plot your course using your current position as determined by the VORTAC and a navigational map, taking your current air speed into account in order to determine where you'll be in several minutes (waypoint). THEN, once your new heading is determined, you can change the heading once you've hit the location you've calculated as your waypoint and utilize the VORTAC to guide you to your new destination. It won't determine the new course for you obviously, you need to do that yourself.

Hanjours instructors said he had very poor navigational skills, so I doubt he could have done all that if he needed to, but he obviously didn't need to since the plane was flown on autopilot, thus utilizing the flight management computer.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   11:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: AGAviator (#69)

quote]It was turned off momentarily, the course was corrected as it was a bit off, and then turned back on[/quote]

Exactly what I said.

But that is AFTER the initial course change was made, so not only did the operator of the aircraft know how to change the course on the computer while the autopilot was active, but knew how to disengage the autopilot, use some other navigational aid, make a course correction, then reengage autopilot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   11:34:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#65)

Not according to the people who actually spent thousands of man-hours researching the attacks. It is only unproven to you because you wish to ignore those conclusions without having any conclusions to replace them.

There is close to zero hard evidence that Hanjour was piloting that plane, if even that much. There IS a LOT of evidence which indicates he couldn't have possibly piloted the aircraft, due to his lack of skill, and his extremely poor airmanship.

Bernard said. “There’s no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it.”

He either apparently thought that Hanjour had hijacked the aircraft upon takeoff from Dulles and crashed it into the roof of the Pentagon, or he lied, since it took QUITE a bit more than just "pointing the aircraft at the Pentagon" to fly a 757 from Ohio, descend, perform some tight manuevers comparable to that of a military aircraft, then fly at treetop level at over 400 mph, dropping to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph without touching the Pentagon lawn and hitting the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   11:52:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#71) (Edited)

Ok, so I guess I was looking up some older info in terms of using two VORTAC stations to triangulate current position.

I appreciate the candor. I have flown craft hundreds of miles using one VORTAC without using any Flight Computers.

You still need to plot your course using your current position as determined by the VORTAC and a navigational map, taking your current air speed into account in order to determine where you'll be in several minutes (waypoint).

If you're interested in the arrival time. If you want to get there ASAP before any possible interception you'd just concentrate on heading in the right direction and getting ready for the crash.

Hanjours instructors said he had very poor navigational skills, so I doubt he could have done all that if he needed to, but he obviously didn't need to since the plane was flown on autopilot, thus utilizing the flight management computer.

People making aircraft equipment for larger planes try to make them as simple as possible to use, not as complicated.

That's why I've been consistently saying it's harder to fly a small craft without the equipment than the larger planes which have it. This is also why the Chief Instructor who wouldn't rent the 172 to Hanjour, said his lack of small plane skills while having a commercial certificate wasn't that unusual.

Some large aircraft have flown untended for several hours and without pilot oversight. The pilots were tired and let the autopilots do the work. They were punished when this was found out, but the planes flew safely. You can't get away with this on a small craft.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   11:58:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent, ALL (#65)

Bernard also confirms the biggest reason Hanjour was declined was Hanjour's failure to land the test plane by himself, which I repeatedly have said

Even though that in itself isn't true, since Hanjour couldn't do much of anything right, according to Bernard's own employees, Hanjour didn't just LAND the aircraft, he came down over the Pentagon lawn at 530 mph and descended to 20 feet off the ground, where if his wheels were down they would have touched the lawn.

Aircraft are not designed to land at 530 mph, yet that is basically what Hanjour allegedly did, on a heavy multi-engine jumbo jet, yet he had never flown ANY sort of jet before in his life.

Here's the actual reports concerning Bernard and what his employees said;

From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:06:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: AGAviator (#74)

If you're interested in the arrival time. If you want to get there ASAP before any possible interception you'd just concentrate on heading in the right direction and getting ready for the crash.

You're neglecting the part where you need to know what IS the heading you need to fly. You can't just pick a number from 0 to 359 and fly that direction.

That's why there's such a thing called NAVIGATION. You should be smart enough to know that.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:08:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: AGAviator (#74)

That's why I've been consistently saying it's harder to fly a small craft without the equipment than the larger planes which have it.

Ok, since it's so simple, please detail the steps required to change the course on a Boeing 757 flight management computer while autopilot is engaged.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:09:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: AGAviator (#74)

This is also why the Chief Instructor who wouldn't rent the 172 to Hanjour, said his lack of small plane skills while having a commercial certificate wasn't that unusual.

If you can't control a single engine Cessna 172, you won't be able to control a multi-engine Piper Apache, yet that is what Hanjour supposedly tested on for his Commercial License. Multi-engine craft require more knowledge and more skill to fly, since you have more than just one engine that provides forward thrust, and that thrust needs to be tuned properly in order for the aircraft to handle the various situations it'll encounter during flight.

He never was qualified to fly ANY sort of aircraft to begin with, but the fact he couldn't control a Cessna 172 indicates he could NEVER in a million years control a heavy multi-engine jumbo jet, especially considering he never flew ANY sort of jet before in his life.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:14:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: AGAviator (#74)

Some large aircraft have flown untended for several hours and without pilot oversight. The pilots were tired and let the autopilots do the work.

Yes, and they KNEW how to fly the aircraft, were qualified on that aircraft, and were of course fully aware of how to use the flight management computer and how to engage autopilot.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:16:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#77)

Detail the steps required to change the course on a Boeing 757 flight management computer while autopilot is engaged.

Boeing 757 Simulator Program Website

Knock yourself out.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   12:19:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: FormerLurker (#76)

You're neglecting the part where you need to know what IS the heading you need to fly. You can't just pick a number from 0 to 359 and fly that direction.

That's where the Course Deviation Indicator comes in. You get the radial from the VORTAC that gives you zero deviation right or left and compare the heading of the aircraft with it.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   12:22:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: AGAviator (#81)

That's where the Course Deviation Indicator comes in.

LOL, you STILL NEED TO KNOW THE COURSE in order to set the equipment to guide you on that course. What are you suggesting, that it read Hanjour's mind and knew where he wanted to go?

C'mon dude, give it up.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:24:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: AGAviator (#80) (Edited)

Knock yourself out.

So it's not that simple is it. Hanjour had never trained on a 757 flight simulator, and never sat in the cockpit of ANY jet before in his life. He was an extremely poor student who frequently skipped class when he DID pay for flight simulator time on a 737 flight simulator, which has a different flight management system than a 757 and 767.

Besides skipping classes and not doing his homework, he could barely understand the instructors when he WAS there, and had such poor skills, he was told he should just give it up. He did eventually flunk out of that simulator training, so there is no real chance that he was this ace operator who would have known how to utilize a system he had never seen before in his life.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   12:29:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: AGAviator (#70)

as usual you cherry pick and ignore any words in a quote that will make you look like the SOS you are.

lol.....this is what you do CONSTANTLY.

It's funny how you point out in others what is fundamentally YOUR flaw.

What's an SOS? Must be a sack of shit, eh?

Did you ping Christine to your post and turn yourself in? No, that's not something a lying little hypocrite like you would EVER do. Whine, snivel, tattle and complain while you do all that you claim to protest. Yet, you think this goes unnoticed by the lot of us. lol

What do you intend to accomplish with reposting your BS post anyway? Is it supposed to prove something? If you actually fetch my posts to you, it will be blatently obvious to the lot of us, even you, that I enjoy making fun of you and your massively inflated ego, which should never be construed as feeling anything FOR you. I know, another blow to your ego. Sniff, sniff. lol

How is that search for a "more productive" site coming along? : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   20:47:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Original_Intent (#26)

come on! bucky only needs to know the official fairy tale talking points.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-29   22:34:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: IRTorqued, buckeroo, all (#85)

come on! bucky only needs to know the official fairy tale talking points.

Somehow, for some strange reason, I must admit that I am not impressed by slavering credulousness.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   22:44:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#84)

How is that search for a "more productive" site coming along? : )

19. To: buckeroo (#17)

Why should anyone care about the basic issues of governance? You are too worried about cockamamie BS... of and about your posts to deliver a straightforward answer.

So explain to us what YOU are doing to show you care buck. Are you leading some sort of political rally to fire the people up, or just sitting at home bitching at people who discuss this sort of thing?

FormerLurker posted on 2010-07-28

#21. To: FormerLurker (#19)

So explain to us what YOU are doing to show you care buck

Oh sure, its all my fault while you while the hours away on a chit-chat channel believing in government conspiracies... man, you are so ignorant, you should be regarded as a PURE puke when ANYONE viewing own posts.

You NEVER address the real issues.. an apathetic people built upon WW2... and you believe in conspiracies while the voters strip you of not just dignity but RIGHTS... meanwhile you believe some BS about government creating 9/11.

You are off-topic. You are full of BS.

buckeroo posted on 2010-07-28 17:43:16 ET

#28. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#19)

Why should anyone care about the basic issues of governance? You are too worried about cockamamie BS... of and about your posts to deliver a straightforward answer.

So explain to us what YOU are doing to show you care buck

Actually I think this is a correct observation.

If we think there are people who are stuck in side issues, we need to start tuning them out and proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results

AGAviator posted on 2010-07-28 19:16:53 ET

So where does "tuning them out and proceed to places" translate into "search for a 'more productive' site" scheisskopf?

For about the 5th time, does a idiot who's spent all day addressing the same old messages to someone she(it) doesn't care about have any grasp of English?

Clearly not.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   22:47:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: abraxas (#41)

seems AGovshill suffers from megalomania along with factaphobia.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-29   22:48:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: AGAviator, abraxas, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, christine, ALL (#87)

Wow, you seem to be sort of a stalker, dude. What's up with that? Upset that I totally tore to shreds your attempts to paint us as fools?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   22:54:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: AGAviator (#87)

proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results

Proceed to places..........as in MOVE ON, MOVE ALONG, PROGRESS, FORGE AHEAD, GO.

Speaking of idiot, you really should pull out your dictionary and ascertain the meaning of the words you opt to use. LOL.......the irony of YOU telling ME to grasp English. I know, you are attempting to sneak in another diversion from your idiocy, but it's not going to work.

Not all day, a moment here and a moment there, to have a good laugh at you and your massive ego. It really doesn't take much time or effort.

What's up with throwing in all the FL posts in the mix? Attempting to be wordy via plagiarism is lame, AGABLOWviator. Can't you come up with anything original?

Even the other half of your dynamic duo wants no part of this grasping at straws you continue to engage in. Don't let that stop you from pinging him to your ineptness. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   23:02:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Original_Intent (#54)

eceive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. De

for all we know hanjour is still an incompetent pilot who can at best handle straight and level.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-29   23:03:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: IRTorqued (#88)

lol.......

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-29   23:03:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: AGAviator (#58)

so then where is the video you flat out liar of the liar movement?


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-29   23:06:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: IRTorqued (#91)

eceive one, and HE WAS an incompetent pilot. De

for all we know hanjour is still an incompetent pilot who can at best handle straight and level.

In a single engine Cessna 172 - maybe.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-29   23:12:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: abraxas, buckeroo (#90)

Proceed to places..........as in MOVE ON, MOVE ALONG, PROGRESS, FORGE AHEAD, GO.

So you in your lambrain believe you and about maybe 10 other CT's have a death grip on this site, and every thread therein?

Well, you are consistently delusional about the extent of your influence here and in the world at large.

What's up with throwing in all the FL posts in the mix?

Another example of how you, a Half Truther, conflate something you pick out of context to mean what you want it to, instead of what it says.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-29   23:26:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: AGAviator, abraxas (#95)

What's up with throwing in all the FL posts in the mix?

So why DID you refer to me in your sermon on how this site operates?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-29   23:55:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: AGAviator (#95) (Edited)

So you in your lambrain believe

lol.......look Toots (hehehe), you said it, not me. I'm just encouraging your thoughts about moving along. It's really simple. I think even you can grasp it......maybe, if you try REAL hard and concentrate with all your might. I've clubbed you upside your head with a clue by four multiple times, so I realize what a massive challenge this is for you.

Nobody is talking about my influence. Nobody is discussing any "death grip" either. My you are delusional. Do you hear voices and have imaginary friends too?

Out of context? Conflate something? Er, hello!! Earth to AGABLOWviator. You cut and pasted several FL posts into your last diatribe to me. For what purpose, I do not know. It's right on the thread, not out of context, not conflated........just suspected plagiarism. lol

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   0:05:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: abraxas, AGAviator, ALL (#97)

Seems like I fascinate AGAviator, he cuts and pastes my posts as if they were epic.

Thing is, he doesn't take the ones that ARE pretty informational, he just takes my posts to ole buck and posts them as if that's the entire aspect of what's been said.

Of course he doesn't refer to the ones where I've totally ripped apart his story or diversions, he just takes the ones I've posted to his sidekick in a conversational back and forth.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   0:23:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Original_Intent (#61) (Edited)

Your distinction is one without a difference. It is gobbledygook. It is not proven even that Hanjour was behind the stick and that is at best an unproven hypothesis. And the maneuvers that plane went through are well beyond any skill evidenced by Hanjour at any time on a type of aircraft which he was incompetent to fly, had never before flown, never trained on and in fact at no time had he ever flown ANY KIND of jet aircraft

You keep repeating the SOS with zero proof alleging any and all available evidence is wrong, without being able to supply anything sother than arm-waving denials of your own.

Repetition does not make proof except perhaps to you and a few self-hypnotized Six Percenters.

A 1/2 G descending turn is not even beyond the capability of a student pilot.

A holder of a commercial pilot certificate can become completely type certified using flight simulators.

Flight computer are made for safety and ease of use, not for difficulty.

More basic aircraft without flight computers are more difficult to fly and maneuver than aircraft provided with flight computers. This is why ATP pilots wishing to go out for rides in smaller single engine craft must frequently get retrained and why the Chief Instructor said that Hanjour's need for training was "not that unsusual" which as usual you leave out of your cut and pick quotes.

19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule. Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   6:23:00 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#97) (Edited)

I'm just encouraging your thoughts about moving along

No, you're encouraging your own thoughts, Toots. With about as much effect as you encourage thinking in anybody else - zero.

Nobody is talking about my influence. Nobody is discussing any "death grip" either. My you are delusional.

Your hot flashes of me moving to another site because of the delusions of 10 people on this site are the delusions.

Do you hear voices and have imaginary friends too?

No, but as someone who posts all day long about laughing to yourself to someone you say is unimportant to you and you don't care at all about, you need to make sure Obama's budget has funding for drop-in mental health centers and lots of free Zoloft down the street you push your shopping cart on.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   6:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#98)

Seems like I fascinate AGAviator, he cuts and pastes my posts as if they were epic.

Says the idiot whose listings of posts to me take up 7 full screens.

Do you know how to use the site poster search feature, imbecile?

Try it sometime.

Screen Name Search:

From: FormerLurker To: AGAviator

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   6:37:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: abraxas (#29)

Don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out!!

Good luck!! Happy trails!! Namaste!! Adios!!

Proceed to places where discussion will have more productive results for you. Don't delay, act NOW. Run, run like the wind. God Speed!!

LOL! I second that. Aggravator and buck need to go where their fount of wisdumb will be appreciated more by their fellow establishment shills and toadies.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-30   9:07:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle (#100)

Your hot flashes of me moving to another site because of the delusions of 10 people on this site are the delusions.

lol.....what hot flashes? Now, ten more people have delusions? Your projection is comical and compounding.

I thought we agreed that you are "Toots". I'm not just laughing to myself, as others find my commentary comical as well. It's only you who fails to appreciate my comedy.

Unlike you, I'm not promoting Obama's budget, agenda or 911 fairy tales. That's your job and I have no intention of moving in on THAT game. You will have to find somebody else to "make sure" the drop-in mental health centers and free Zoloft are available for you. Good luck with that.

As for me, I'll continue with simple encouragement to help you find your way to more productive discourse.

Now, you are dragging Turtle into reading your drivel I see. Don't you realize he is working hard on a campaign to wipe out short men and sleep with all the women? Even the other half of your dynamic duo, Buck, has better things to do than read your drivel. As for me, keep it coming as it provides bountiful comic relief and takes only moment to adddress.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   11:36:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: James Deffenbach (#102)

The best we can do is encourage this line of thinking, James. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   11:37:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: abraxas (#103)

Don't you realize he is working hard on a campaign to wipe out short men and sleep with all the women?

I'm not campaigning for it. It'll just happen naturally.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-30   11:39:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: AGAviator, abraxas, Original_Intent (#101)

Try it sometime.

Screen Name Search: From: FormerLurker To: AGAviator

Or I could try doing a search on you, cut and paste your comments, and paint you as a foul mouthed shill, but I'm not the sort of person to do that without good cause.

A good start though would be the following search:

Screen Name Search: From: AGAviator To: abraxas

or this one..

Screen Name Search: From: AGAviator To: Original_Intent

or even this one..

Screen Name Search: From: AGAviator To: FormerLurker


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   11:46:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Turtle (#105) (Edited)

I'm not campaigning for it. It'll just happen naturally.

Turtle, I have, as of this morning, taken on the plight of the short men.

Your dastardly and diabolical plan no longer has a chance as I am warning the lot of them to beware of turtles.

You have met your match, standing tall at five foot one. I'm not too proud to get a chair to peer into your evil eye. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   11:51:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: abraxas (#107)

Did you say something? I think I heard a noise from near the ground.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-30   11:53:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Turtle (#108)

lol....I'm standing on my step ladder now, so I know you can hear me.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   11:55:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: abraxas (#109)

lol....I'm standing on my step ladder now, so I know you can hear me.

I STILL CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!

5'1"?

Midget. Dwarf. Elf. Troll. Munchkin. Gremlin!

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-30   12:00:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: AGAviator, Original_Intent (#99) (Edited)

You keep repeating the SOS with zero proof alleging any and all available evidence is wrong, without being able to supply anything sother than arm-waving denials of your own.

Why do you project your misdeeds onto others? You ignore any and all actual evidence, make things up as you go, such as your implied claim that a VORTAC navaid can read the pilot's mind and decide where he wants to go, and accuse US of being "k00ks".

You cling to your beliefs, which relies on various impossible and/or improbable feats, such as your belief that Hanjour could have flown a 757 jumbo jet like a master pilot even though he was a totally inept "pilot" who had serious problems controlling a single engine Cessna 172. You ignore the fact Flight 77's autopilot was engaged practically the entire flight, thus requiring the knowledge of how to correctly utilize the flight management computer onboard the 757, one which Hanjour had never seen before in his life.

Then you toss in this VORTAC distraction which has nothing to do with Flight 77 since the autopilot was engaged. You can't describe what a pilot would need to do to change the course on a Boeing 757 flight management computer with autopilot engaged, but try to sell the idea that ANYONE could do it, it's so simple, it has to be simple because YOU say so, yet YOU CAN'T describe how it's done.

One moment you try to sell the idea that Hanjour was a "qualified pilot" just because he somehow managed to "buy" his license, yet without exception, EVERY flight instructor who delt with him described him as totally incompetent, a bad pilot, a person who basically couldn't fly at all.

Yet you want us to believe that this person who couldn't even fly a proper circle around an airport and land a Cessna 172 was able to correctly utilize the flight management system onboard a 757, a cockpit he never sat in before in his life, disengage the autopilot near Washington, perform some precision descending turns, level off at treetop level while flying at 400 mph, then descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph in order to strike a 71 foot tall target.

All this without EVER flying a jet before in his life.

Uh huh, sure thing, we're the ones who ignore evidence, and you're the fountain of truth.

In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.

And that IS EXACTLY what you've been doing here.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   12:07:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Turtle (#110)

I STILL CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!

You don't have to yell. lol Perhaps a hearing check for a man of your mature years would be in order.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   12:22:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: abraxas (#112)

Perhaps a hearing check for a man of your mature years would be in order.

Did I ever tell you I'm 13? I'm just precocious.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-30   12:24:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: Turtle (#113)

I'm just precocious.

lol.........You precocious?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   13:08:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#111)

One moment you try to sell the idea that Hanjour was a "qualified pilot" just because he somehow managed to "buy" his license, yet without exception, EVERY flight instructor who delt with him described him as totally incompetent, a bad pilot, a person who basically couldn't fly at all.

Yet you want us to believe that this person who couldn't even fly a proper circle around an airport and land a Cessna 172 was able to correctly utilize the flight management system onboard a 757, a cockpit he never sat in before in his life, disengage the autopilot near Washington, perform some precision descending turns, level off at treetop level while flying at 400 mph, then descend to 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph in order to strike a 71 foot tall target.

All this without EVER flying a jet before in his life.

The above bears constant repetition and is the remedy to AGBloviator's constant circling back to the same discredited, frequently made up and implausible, SPIN over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

While he would like to label those of us who look at the data and see that it does not add up to the same figures as the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" as "kooks" i.e., trying to dismiss the data not by a factual rebuttal but by schoolyard disinformation ploys and name calling if one really looks honestly at what he is trying to assert one must question not the sanity of the doubters but his.

To believe his scenario one has to believe the following:

That Hani Hanjour/Hanjour who could not, by testimony of every one of his flight instructors, safely and competently able fly a single engine propeller driven Cessna 172 (top speed 220 Knots - in a dive) suddenly and miraculously became a candidate for the Master Pilot's Hall of Fame by commandeering a Boeing 757 Jumbo Jet, overcoming a pilot and co-pilot who were both ex-military, one a decorated Fighter Jockey, who were a foot taller and a hundred pounds or so heavier, and then flying it at speeds of 400 to 530 miles an hour and was able to perform maneuvers like he was a member of Baron Friedrich Von Richtoften's Flying Circus.

When one really looks at the realities you'd have to be a kook to believe the "Official Conspiracy Theory™". Either that or a paid shill whose job it is to try and sell this implausible Fairy Tale of the incompetent pilot that could.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   14:42:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: abraxas, buckeroo, turtle (#103) (Edited)

Your hot flashes of me moving to another site because of the delusions of 10 people on this site are the delusions.

lol.....what hot flashes? Now, ten more people have delusions

Not even 10, Toots. I'm being generous.

Unlike you, I'm not promoting Obama's budget, agenda or 911 fairy tales.

No matter what their shortcomings, doing those things would actually be more productive than your current miserable existence.

You're "Putting out thousands of words to someone you 'don't care about,'" claiming I'm "stalking" you when I shoe computer records demonstrate you're a liar, and doublespeaking about every single sentence you claim one thing and do another.

Don't you realize he is working hard on a campaign to wipe out short men and sleep with all the women?
And of course you scarf up every word of them, then deny having any ***hot flash*** episodes.

HAHAHAHAHA!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   14:43:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: abraxas, Turdle, Turtle, all (#114)

I'm just precocious.

lol.........You precocious?

Makes me think of Chrissie Hynde.

I LIKE THE WAY YOU CROSS THE STREET 'CAUSE YOUR PRECIOUS
MOVING THROUGH THE CLEVELAND HEAT HOW PRECIOUS
TAKING RIDES AND ALL THE KICKS WAS SO PRECIOUS
BUT YOU KNOW I WAS SHITTIN' BRICKS 'CAUSE I'M PRECIOUS

MADE ME WANNA, MADE ME WANNA, YOU MADE ME MAKE IT
OH, YOU'RE SO MEAN

EAST 55TH AND EUCLID AVENUE WAS REAL PRECIOUS
HOTEL STERLING COMING INTO VIEW HOW PRECIOUS
IT'S A PITY THAT YOU BRUISED MY HIP 'CAUSE I'M PRECIOUS
YOU SHOULDN'T LET YOUR MANNERS SLIP YOU'RE TOO PRECIOUS

MADE ME WANNA, MADE ME WANNA, YOU MADE ME MAKE IT
OH, YOU'RE SO MEAN

WE WENT AROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND THE SHOREWAY
WE WAS A DUET DUET DUET DUET DO IT ON THE PAVEMENT
OH MAYBE MAYBE I'M GONNA HAVE A BABY
WE WAS A DUET OH WE DO IT ALL NIGHT

I WAS FEELING KIND OF ETHEREAL 'CAUSE I'M PRECIOUS
I HAD MY EYE ON YOUR IMPERIAL YOU'RE SO PRECIOUS
NOW HOWARD THE DUCK AND MR STRESS BOTH STAYED
"TRAPPED IN A WORLD THAT THEY NEVER MADE"
BUT NOT ME BABY I'M TOO PRECIOUS I HAD TO - FUCK OFF

MADE ME WANNA, MADE ME WANNA, YOU MADE ME MAKE IT
OH, YOU'RE SO MEAN

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   14:57:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#111)

You cling to your beliefs, which relies on various impossible and/or improbable feats, such as your belief that Hanjour could have flown a 757 jumbo jet like a master pilot even though he was a totally inept "pilot" who had serious problems controlling a single engine Cessna 172

You continue to ignore the explicit quotes of the exact same person you base your k00ktales upon, where he says "There is no question" that Hanjour even though lacking adequate conventional piloting skills, nevertheless had sufficient controlling hijacked aircraft skills to take an aircraft over mid air and crash it into a target.

All your blather about flight computers, navigation, conventional piloting is nothing more than obfuscation of a simple and direct statement made by someone whom you yourself is choosing as a source: Hanjour was able to take over and crash a hijacked plane into the Pentagon.

Half Truther cherry picking at its worst.

As far as replying to all the other crap, like claiming not giving you a step by step description of how to disconnect a VORTAC from a FMS means something - when it's actually a bull$hit question because a VORTAC linked to a CDI works independently of the FMS - is not going to be addressed because you have nothing credible to go by yourself, and all you can do is nit pick on other people's accounts which actually have some research and subject matter expertise behind them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   15:01:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: AGAviator, AGBloviator, FormerLurker, all (#118)

You continue to ignore the explicit quotes of the exact same person you base your k00ktales upon, where he says "There is no question" that Hanjour even though lacking adequate conventional piloting skills, nevertheless had sufficient controlling hijacked aircraft skills to take an aircraft over mid air and crash it into a target.

As is par for the course you misstate the facts.

That says nothing about his ability to use the Flight Management System (which he had never seen before in his life), Navigate (for which there is zero evidence that he had ever learned that), and there is a significant difference between crashing a plane on a straight line course and putting it through set-up maneuvers that would tax the skills of a master pilot which the experienced Air Traffic Controllers watching his approach on Radar were convinced HAD to be a military flight.

No, as usual you sidestep and wave away with your magic wand all those pesky little details like a 7,000 foot descent in 2.5 minutes while making a precision 270 degree spiral. Oh, I know it was because he was a devout Muslim Fanatic who was out drinking and whoring the night before.

You get funnier and funnier every time you travel around the same Fruit Loop. LOL!

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   15:10:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: AGAviator, Turtle, Buckaroo (#116)

Not even 10, Toots. I'm being generous.

You're "Putting out thousands of words to someone you 'don't care about,'" claiming I'm "stalking" you when computer records demonstrate you're a liar, and doublespeaking about every single sentence you claim one thing and do another.

And of course you scarf up every word of them, then deny having any ***hot flash*** episodes.

If it's not even 10, why claim 10? I'm merely using your numbers. I see, you were once again lying. You can't even keep it straight from one post to the next, yet you want to deem yourself credible. lol

Post any reference you can find to my use of "stalking" in relation to you and your posts. Of course, you will not be able to comply because you are, once again, lying.

Are you sure it's "thousands of words"? Have you counted all of them? Don't you have anything better to do than a word count on me? No matter, often it takes a few paragraphs to flesh out all the comic gems in response to your idiocy.

And, of course, while you are clinging to this thread with all of your might, you are oblivious to the multiple other threads on this site, to wit Turtle's crusade against short men and his diabolical plot to sleep with all the women. It's not "hot flashes" but rather what is going on beyond this thread on this forum. Once again, you open your pie hole and insert foot.

Even your jokes are epic failures......but you are no quitter. I await your feeble response. You are like a dog returning to his vomit.

I think even Buckie has you on ignore now and Turtle is laughing at you.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   15:13:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Original_Intent (#119) (Edited)

Putting it through set-up maneuvers that would tax the skills of a master pilot which the experienced Air Traffic Controllers watching his approach on Radar were convinced HAD to be a military flight.

An 8 G turn taxes the skills of a master pilot.

A 1/2 G turn does not even tax the skills of a student pilot.

Especially when you hit the target 330 degrees from where you intended to hit it.

The experienced ATC's said the plane was flown ***like*** a military flight. Then went on to explicitly acknowledge it was a 757 but said flying a 757 in that way was "unsafe."

Yes, suicide hijackers are known to fly airplanes they hijack ***unsafely.***

You keep repeating the same lies and half truth distortions over and over. It doesn't make them any more true. It only makes you more confused.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   15:15:57 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: abraxas (#120)

If it's not even 10, why claim 10? I'm merely using your numbers.

You're the one claiming an appreciative audience for your blather to me.

So let's have the names, Toots. And don't quit your day job.

Are you sure it's "thousands of words"? Have you counted all of them? Don't you have anything better to do than a word count on me?

That's what computers are for. Given your verbal diarrhea it has to be in that range. I'll leave it to you to do another useless exercise.

You are like a dog returning to his vomit.

Then that must make you the vomit.

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   15:26:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: AGAviator (#122)

Yes, my appreciative audience posts appreciation, while yours ignores you.

lol.....doesn't that crush your ego?

Oh, so now you're backing off from thousands of words and inserting this is your "estimate" which is akin to your ASSumptions and basically worthless.

I'm sure I heard you whining for facts amid all your estimations and ASSumptions.

If you insist on claiming that, in fact, I am the one that YOU can't stay away from, then I guess that makes me vomit. I can live with that. What one deems irresistable comes in many forms, at least you admit that YOU can't help yourself, no matter how many times I make fun of you and laugh at your expense. : )

LOl.....are you still telling yourself that I "care" deeply? You are consistent with your delusions of mattering. I'll throw you that little bone, Toots.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   15:36:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: abraxas, AGAviator, all (#123)

Checking in as appreciative audience.



wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-30   15:40:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: wudidiz (#124)

Hi Wud!! I appreciate you too. : )

Did you get my PM on that cool little documentary?

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   15:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: abraxas (#125)

Yes, I did, thank you :-)



wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-30   15:46:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: abraxas (#123) (Edited)

Oh, so now you're backing off from thousands of words and inserting this is your "estimate"

No, I said the computer keeps records and I'm not going to count every piece of your vomit.

And invited you to do so yourself if you have any questions.

As in "I'll leave it to you."

Your inability to comprehend basic English makes me think you and Hanjour have something in common.

Besides your burqua.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   16:06:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#121) (Edited)

An 8 G turn taxes the skills of a master pilot.

A 1/2 G turn does not even tax the skills of a student pilot.

Again you selectively misrepresent the data. Did anyone mention an 8G turn? No, a diversionary Strawman Argument.

A 1/2 G 270 degree turn while descending 7,000 feet in 2.5 minutes is the full observation - not your foreshortened version to create the false impression that such a turn was a mere bagatelle.

The experienced ATC's said the plane was flown ***like*** a military flight. Then went on to explicitly acknowledge it was a 757 but said flying a 757 in that way was "unsafe."

Yes, suicide hijackers are known to fly airplanes they hijack ***unsafely.***

Sure, Herbie, sure. And every day pilots who were described as incompetent behind the stick of a single engine, propeller driven, Cessna 172 by their flight instructors do aerobatics with Jumbo Jets (even without the benefit of training or EVER flying ANY jet of ANY kind). You remind me of the "Queen of Hearts" in "Alice in Wonderland" who could believe 8 impossible things before breakfast.

Oh, by the way, love your hat, but you should learn to lighten up and smile a bit.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   16:24:58 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: AGAviator (#127)

Your inability to comprehend basic English makes me think you and Hanjour have something in common.

Besides your burqua.

lol.....coming from you and your inability to comprehend basic terms, I'll take that attempted insult with a grain of salt and a yawn.

As in, you will leave it to ASSumptions and guesstimates. That's about the bulk of your commentary, so it's no surprise.

Are you attempting an insult with the burqua comment? Another epic failure. Is that the best you can do? I ALMOST feel sorry for your inability to craft an effective come back again and again. But, really, I think it's self interest on my part. You're so lame, it's robbing me of a bit of enjoyment, bordering on laughing at a retarded person and there's no fun in that.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   16:27:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Original_Intent (#128)

Again you selectively misrepresent the data.

What? Say it isn't so.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-30   16:29:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: abraxas (#130)

Again you selectively misrepresent the data.

What? Say it isn't so.

LOL!

I know, I was just absolutely completely shockingly flabbergasted.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   16:50:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: abraxas (#129)

your inability to comprehend basic terms

As usual you're a mixture of wind and stink.

YOU: Oh, so now you're backing off from thousands of words and inserting this is your "estimate"

ME: No, I said the computer keeps records and I'm not going to count every piece of your vomit.

And invited you to do so yourself if you have any questions.

As in "I'll leave it to you."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   18:10:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: abraxas (#129) (Edited)

Ooooooooh! Now you've made him vewwy mad, and he's going to go pout in the corner and hold his breath until he turns blue.

Aren't you just so ashamed of yourself?

(P.S. Remind me not to get you mad at me.)

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-30   18:17:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: OInk, buckeroo (#133) (Edited)

Ooooooooh! Now you've him vewwy mad

Not that it works even slightly, but once again you prove yourself a complete fraud by doing the same things you say people who peddle disinformation do.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issuesin the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how "sensitive they are to criticism".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   18:30:30 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: AGAviator, abraxas, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, christine, ALL (#118)

You continue to ignore the explicit quotes of the exact same person you base your k00ktales upon, where he says "There is no question" that Hanjour even though lacking adequate conventional piloting skills, nevertheless had sufficient controlling hijacked aircraft skills to take an aircraft over mid air and crash it into a target.

A) Hanjour did not allegedly hijack Flight 77 over Washinton DC and crash it into the Pentagon. You're beating a straw man to death. Hanjour allegedly hijacked the airliner over Ohio, set the flight management computer onto a new course (one which he had never seen and didn't know how to use), disengaged autopilot once on the way to DC, reengaged it (all functions of the flight management computer), and then disenaged it once near Washington DC. He then performed several precise descending turns, fooling the air traffic controllers into thinking it was a military jet with the way it was manuevered, then flew at tree top level at over 400 mph, accelerated to 530 mph, and descended down to 20 feet off the ground over the Pentagon lawn in order to hit the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall.

So NO, he did NOT crash it, and he didn't hijack it over Washington, as you falsely try to claim.

B) The very person who you like to cherry pick words from had a LOT more to say concerning Hanjour, and you KNOW that, since I've REPEATEDLY posted the various quotes for you over the past several days, at LEAST once on this thread already...

Here again are the actual reports concerning Bernard and what his employees said, and nowhere do I see what YOU claim he said;

From Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single-engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   21:04:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: AGAviator, ALL (#118)

All your blather about flight computers, navigation, conventional piloting is nothing more than obfuscation of a simple and direct statement made by someone whom you yourself is choosing as a source: Hanjour was able to take over and crash a hijacked plane into the Pentagon.

You continue to ignore the evidence and twist a quote of a person who obviously didn't know that Hanjour FLEW the aircraft, he DIDN'T just take over immediately after takeoff and crash it, as you CONTINUE to try to put into people's minds. YOU sir are a LIAR and the worst part of it is, you try to pin YOUR misdeeds onto people who are in fact posting FACTS, whereas ALL you post are misrepresentations, distortions, and outright lies.

You can't debate the evidence since you wish to QUASH the evidence and bury it, so you resort to cherry picking a quote of ONE individual who later had a LOT more to say about how inept Hanjour was, and you ignore ALL of the other quotes from his instructors who had delt with him over the years.

You can't explain how he would have been able to work the flight management computer, you can't explain how he could perform manuevers with a Boeing 757 likened to those that would be made by a highly skilled military pilot, and you CAN'T explain how he could fly 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph without even kissing the Pentagon lawn with an engine or wing tip.

Half Truther cherry picking at its worst.

It's obvious to EVERYONE here but you that YOU are the "Half Truther", or perhaps more of a "FULL LIAR".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   21:13:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: AGAviator, abraxas, Original_Intent (#127)

Your inability to comprehend basic English makes me think you and Hanjour have something in common. Besides your burqua.

Not that it works even slightly, but once again you prove yourself a complete fraud by doing the same things you say people who peddle disinformation do.

18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issuesin the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how "sensitive they are to criticism".


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   21:19:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: AGAviator, abraxas, RickyJ, IRTorqued, Original_Intent, James Deffenbach, ALL (#118) (Edited)

Since you continue to misrepresent the evidence and outright lie when you think you can get away with it, avoiding the actual reports concerning Hanjour's abilites (or rather lack of them), I'll post the news reports that you attempt to twist into the opposite of what they were meant to convey...


Al Qaeda’s Top Gun

Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

by Jeremy R. Hammond / April 18th, 2010

Hani Hanjour is the hijacker who flew American Airlines Flight 77 into the Pentagon on the morning of September 11, 2001, according to the official account of terrorist attacks. "The lengthy and extensive flight training obtained by Hani Hanjour throughout his years in the United States makes it reasonable to believe that he was the pilot of Flight 77 on September 11," concluded FBI Director Robert S. Mueller.1 The story is that while Hanjour had difficulties learning to fly at first, he persevered, overcame his obstacles, and became an extraordinary enough pilot to be able to precisely hit his target after performing a difficult flight maneuver.

The New York Times, for instance, asserted that "Mr. Hanjour overcame the mediocrity of his talents as a pilot and gained enough expertise to fly a Boeing 757 into the Pentagon."2 The Washington Post similarly suggested Hanjour had the requisite skills, reporting that "Federal records show that a Hani Hanjoor obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 with a rating to fly commercial jets."3

The 9/11 Commission expanded upon this narrative in its final report. It noted that Hanjour first came to the United States in 1991 to study English, then again in 1996 "to pursue flight training, after being rejected by a Saudi flight school. He checked out flight schools in Florida, California, and Arizona; and he briefly started at a couple of them before returning to Saudi Arabia." In 1997, after returning to Arizona, he "began his flight training there in earnest. After about three months, Hanjour was able to obtain his private pilot’s license. Several more months of training yielded him a commercial pilot certificate, issued by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) in April 1999."4

Subsequently, "Hanjour reportedly applied to the civil aviation school in Jeddah after returning home, but was rejected." By the end of 2000, Hanjour was back in the U.S. and "began refresher training at his old school, Arizona Aviation. He wanted to train on multi-engine planes, but had difficulties because his English was not good enough. The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001."5 A footnote in the report asserts that Hanjour was chosen specifically for targeting the Pentagon because he was "the operation’s most experienced pilot."6

John Ashcroft told reporters early in the investigation, "It is our belief and the evidence indicates that flight training was received in the United States and that their capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial. It’s very clear that these orchestrated coordinated assaults on our country were well-conducted and conducted in a technically proficient way. It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case."7

A pilot with a major carrier for over 30 years told CNN that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators."8 An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."9

CBS News suggested that according to its sources, Flight 77, "flying at more than 400 mph, was too fast and too high when it neared the Pentagon at 9:35. The hijacker-pilots were then forced to execute a difficult high-speed descending turn. Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a- half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it’s clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."10

The Washington Post similarly noted that the plane "was flown with extraordinary skill, making it highly likely that a trained pilot was at the helm." Hanjour was so skilled, in fact, that "just as the plane seemed to be on a suicide mission into the White House, the unidentified pilot" – later identified as Hanjour – "executed a pivot so tight it reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver."11 The Post reported in another article that "After the attacks ... aviation experts concluded that the final maneuvers of American Airlines Flight 77 – a tight turn followed by a steep, accurate descent into the Pentagon – was the work of ‘a great talent ... virtually a textbook turn and landing.’"12

According to the report of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) cited by the 9/11 Commission, information from the flight data recorder recovered from the Pentagon crash site and radar data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) show that the autopilot was disengaged "as the aircraft leveled near 7000 feet. Slight course changes were initiated, during which variations in altitude between 6800 and 8000 feet were noted. At 9:34 AM, the aircraft was positioned about 3.5 miles west-southwest of the Pentagon, and started a right 330-degree descending turn to the right. At the end of the turn, the aircraft was at about 2000 feet altitude and 4 miles southwest of the Pentagon. Over the next 30 seconds, power was increased to near maximum and the nose was pitched down in response to control column movements. The airplane accelerated to approximately 460 knots (530 miles per hour) at impact with the Pentagon. The time of impact was 9:37:45 AM."13

The NTSB created a computer simulation of the flight from the flight data recorder information showing that the plane was actually at more than 8,100 feet and doing about 330 mph when it began its banking turn at 9:34 am. 14 At that point, the alleged pilot Hanjour could have simply decreased thrust, nosed down, and guided the plane into what would have been 29 acres, or 1,263,240 square feet of target area – the equivalent of about 22 football fields.15 From this angle, proverbially speaking, it would have been like trying to hit the side of a barn. Hanjour could have guided the plane into the enormous roof of the building, including the side of the building where the office of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, was located, and where he happened to be that morning.16

Instead, the plane began a steep banking descent, circling downward in a 330- degree turn while dropping more than 5,600 feet in three minutes before re- aligning with the Pentagon and increasing to maximum thrust towards the building. The nose was kept down despite the increased lift from the acceleration, while flying so close to the ground that it clipped lamp posts along the interstate highway before plowing into the building at more than 530 mph, precisely hitting a target only 71 feet high, or just 26.5 feet taller than the Boeing 757 itself.17

In other words, by performing this maneuver, Hanjour reduced his vertical target area from a size comparable to the height of the Empire State Building to an area just 5 stories high. Instead of descending at an angle and plowing through the roof and floors of the building to cause the greatest possible number of casualties, including possibly taking out the Secretary of Defense, Hanjour hit wedge 1 of the Pentagon, opposite to Rumsfeld’s office, which happened to be under construction, and where the plane, travelling horizontally, had to penetrate through the steel- and kevlar-reinforced outer wall of the building’s southwest E-ring in addition to the numerous additional walls of the inner rings of the building.18

But even more problematic than the question of why Hanjour would perform this maneuver is the question of how he performed it. Perhaps the most incredible thing about this, the official account of what happened to Flight 77, is that Hani Hanjour was in reality such a horrible pilot that he had trouble handling a light single-engine aircraft and even just one month before the attacks was rejected at two different schools because he was judged too incompetent to rent a plane and fly solo.

As the Los Angeles Times ironically put it, "For someone suspected of steering a jetliner into the Pentagon, the 29- year-old man who used the name Hani Hanjour sure convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly."19

The Legend Unraveled

According to an FBI chronology for Hani Hanjour cited by the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour first travelled to the U.S. in 1991 on a visa issued in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor", in order to attend the University of Arizona’s Center for English as a Second Language. After returning to Saudi Arabia, he was again issued a visa at Jeddah in March, 1996. Back in the U.S., he attended classes at the ELS Language Center in Oakland, California from May until August. For a week in September, he took ground training lessons at the Sierra Aeronautical Academy Airline Training Center (SAAATC). From the end of September until mid-October, he purchased flight instruction from Cockpit Resources Management (CRM) in Scottsdale, Arizona. He then returned to Saudi Arabia once more.20 The Washington Post reported that according to Hanjour’s brother, Yasser, "Hanjour applied for a job at the state- owned Saudi Arabian Airlines but was told that he lacked sufficient grades.... He said the company told him it would reconsider his application only if he acquired a commercial pilot’s license in the United States."21 Yasser characterized Hanjour "as a frustrated young Saudi who wanted desperately – but never succeeded – to become a pilot for the Saudi national airline."22

Hanjour made plans to return to the U.S. and was issued a third visa in Jeddah in November 1997. His visa application contained red flags that should have resulted in his visa being denied. He failed to write in the name and address of the school he would be attending and provided no proof, as required by law, that he could furnish financial support for himself.23 With that application accepted, he reentered the U.S. and took pilot training from CRM again in December.24

It was at this time that, according the 9/11 Commission, Hanjour began his training "in earnest". But in reality, while at CRM, Hanjour never finished coursework required to get his certificate to be able to fly a single-engine aircraft.25 The New York Times reported that "he was a lackadaisical student who often cut class and never displayed the passion so common among budding commercial airline pilots."26 ABC News reported that when he returned to CRM that December, "He was trying for his private pilot’s license", but according to one of his instructor’s, he "was a very poor student who skipped homework and missed flights."27 The school’s attorney said that when Hanjour reapplied again later in 2000, "We declined to provide training to him because we didn’t think he was a good enough student when he was there in 1996 and 1997."28 The school’s owner described him as a "weak student" who "was wasting our resources."29 He said, "One of the first accomplishments of someone in flight school is to fly a plane without an instructor. It is a confidence-building procedure. He managed to do that. That is like being able to pull a car out and drive down the street. It is not driving on the freeway." Although it normally took three months for students to earn their private pilot’s certificate, Hanjour "did not accomplish that at my school." He added, "We didn’t want him back at our school because he was not serious about becoming a good pilot."30 The Chicago Tribune reported that at CRM, "A flight instructor said Hanjour left an impression by being unimpressive. ‘He was making weak progress,’ said Duncan Hastie, president of CRM."31

Hanjour switched schools, and from the end of December 1997 until April 1999, took flight lessons from Arizona Aviation in Mesa, Arizona.24 There, too, the 9/11 Commission’s own evidence contradicts the characterization that Hanjour was training "in earnest". An FBI document cited by the Commission stated that "Hanjour often participated in flying lessons for a one to two weeks [sic] and then would disappear for weeks or months at a time." The school "often had to call Hanjour in an effort to get Hanjour to pay his bill."32

Buried in the footnote for the paragraph suggesting Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 Commission report acknowledged that "Hanjour initially was nervous if not fearful in flight training" and that "His instructor described him as a terrible pilot."33 FBI documents cited by the Commission reveal that witnesses from the school told investigators that "Hanjour was a terrible pilot. Hanjour had difficulty understanding air traffic control, the methods for determining fuel management and had poor navigational skills." The FBI was told by one witness that "the only flying skill Hanjour could perform was flying the plane straight", and that "he did not believe Hanjour’s poor flying skills were due to a language barrier." He was "a very poor pilot who did not react to criticism very well. Hanjour was very, very nervous inside the cockpit to the point where Hanjour was almost fearful."32

In April 1998, Hanjour applied for his private pilot certificate with a single-engine rating, but he failed his test. One of the tasks documents show he would need to be reexamined for was "coordinated turns to headings"34 He tried again later that same month and this time received his private pilot certificate under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor," with an "Airplane Single Engine Land" rating.

In an apparent attempt to bolster the misleading characterization that Hanjour began training "in earnest", the 9/11 also stated that it took only "Several more months" to obtain his commercial pilot certificate. In fact, it took Hanjour another year of training before he managed to obtain that second certificate. On April 15, 1999, the FAA issued a commercial pilot certificate to him under the name "Hani Saleh Hanjoor."24 The certificate was issued by Daryl M. Strong, an independent contractor for the FAA, with an "Airplane Multiengine Land" rating. To obtain the certificate, Hanjour’s records show he flew his check ride in a Piper PA 23-150 "Apache", a four-seat twin- engine plane, which Hanjour was in command of for 14.8 hours of the 27 hours completed for the test.35

Contrary to the Washington Post’s assertion that this certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets", in fact it only allowed him to begin passenger jet training. Hanjour did so, only to fail the class.36 As the Associated Press reported, the "certification allowed him to begin passenger jet training at an Arizona flight school despite having what instructors later described as limited flying skills and an even more limited command of English."37

Furthermore, there remains an open question about whether Hanjour was actually qualified to receive that certificate in the first place. According to Heather Awsumb, a spokeswoman for Professional Airways Systems Specialists (PASS), a union that represents FAA employees, "The real problem is that regular oversight is handed over to private industry", since private contractors "receive between $200 and $300 for each check flight. If they get a reputation for being tough, they won’t get any business."38

To obtain a commercial pilot license, the applicant must "Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language." It seems highly dubious that Hanjour met that qualification, as the 9/11 Commission itself acknowledges that his English skills were inadequate. The certificate does not allow its holder to fly any commercial aircraft, but is issued for "the aircraft category and class rating sought". Hanjour only trained in light propeller planes like the single- engine Cessna and twin- engine Piper, and had never flown a jet aircraft.39

Additionally, commercial pilot certification is different from the Airline Transport Pilot certification held by airline captains. To obtain a commercial certificate with a multi-engine rating, Hanjour only needed to log in 250 hours of flight time, whereas to obtain an Airline Transport Pilot certificate, pilots are required to log 1,500 hours.40 Needless to say, having the ability to control a Cessna 172 or Piper Apache propeller plane does not translate into the ability to handle a Boeing 757 jetliner – and Hanjour could barely do the former.

Anyone unfamiliar with pilot certification could easily make the mistake of thinking a "commercial pilot license" meant Hanjour was qualified to fly a jet airliner, a conclusion reinforced by the Washington Post’s false assertion that his certificate allowed him "to fly commercial jets." The 9/11 Commission report reinforced that false impression, only vaguely hinting at the truth six paragraphs later by saying that Hanjour subsequently "wanted to train on multi- engine planes". But the Commission then further obfuscated that truth by asserting that this was merely "refresher" training (a matter to which we will return).

Hanjour again left the country on April 28, 1999.24 As the 9/11 Commission report observed, when he returned to Saudi Arabia to apply in the civil aviation school in Jeddah, he was rejected.24 He subsequently began making preparations to return to the U.S. once again.24 In September 2000, Hanjour was denied a student visa after indicating that he wanted to remain in the U.S. for three years, and yet listed no address for where he intended to stay in Arizona.23 But he tried again for a student visa under the name "Hani Hanjour" later that same month. This time, he wrote that he wanted to stay for one year instead of three, and listed a specific address in California, not Arizona, where he said he was going on his first application. Despite these obvious red flags, he was issued the visa.23

He entered the U.S. in December and took more flight lessons that month at Arizona Aviation. From February until mid-March, he attended Pan Am International Flight Academy, also known as Jet Tech International, in Mesa, Arizona.24

It was upon his return to Arizona Aviation in 2000 that the 9/11 Commission stated he wanted "refresher" training on multi-engine planes but was advised to discontinue "because his English was not good enough." The implications are that Hanjour was merely brushing up on skills he had already achieved through previous flight training, and that the only reason he was advised not to continue was because of his poor language skills. But turning to the report’s footnote, it reads: "For his desire to train on multi- engine planes, his language difficulties, the instructor’s advice, and his reaction, see FBI report of investigation, interview of Rodney McAlear, Apr. 10, 2002."41 That document reveals that McAlear worked not for Arizona Aviation, but rather "instructed Hani Hanjour in ground school flight training at Jet Tech in the early 2001."42 The 9/11 Commission, by misleadingly suggesting that this occurred at Arizona Aviation, apparently intended to bolster the claim that this was "refresher" training by making it sound as though this occurred at Hanjour’s old school, when the truth is that it occurred when he was at a different school he'd never been to before.

The 9/11 Commission was also deceiving the public suggesting that the sole reason Hanjour was not able to complete his training on multi-engine planes was because his English wasn’t good enough. As already noted, an instructor at Arizona Aviation thought his earlier failings there were due primarily to his poor flight skills, and not because of his language inadequacies. More importantly, again, this training actually occurred at Jet Tech. Turning to the documentary record, as article in the New York Times entitled "A Trainee Noted for Incompetence" noted, his instructors there "found his piloting skills so shoddy and his grasp of English so inadequate that they questioned whether his pilot’s license was genuine". As a result, they actually reported him to the FAA and requested confirmation that his certificate was legitimate. The staff there "feared that his skills were so weak that he could pose a safety hazard if he flew a commercial airliner." Marilyn Ladner, a vice president at the academy, told the Times, "There was no suspicion as far as evildoing. It was more of a very typical instructional concern that ‘you really shouldn’t be in the air.’"43

As already discussed, it remains an open question whether Hanjour was actually qualified to hold his commercial pilot certificate. It was at this time, as the Associated Press reported, that "Federal aviation authorities were alerted in early 2001 that an Arizona flight school believed one of the eventual Sept. 11 hijackers lacked the English and flying skills necessary for the commercial pilot’s license he already held, flight school and government officials say."44 The manager of JetTech said, "I couldn’t believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had."45

Whereas the 9/11 Commission suggested that, because he "persevered", Hanjour "completed the initial training", thus leading the public to the conclusion that his skills had advanced accordingly, the Times offered a very different account: "Ultimately administrators at the school told Mr. Hanjour that he would not qualify for the advanced certificate. But the ex- employee said Mr. Hanjour continued to pay to train on a simulator for Boeing 737 jets. ‘He didn’t care about the fact that he couldn’t get through the course,’ the ex- employee said. Staff members characterized Mr. Hanjour as polite, meek and very quiet. But most of all, the former employee said, they considered him a very bad pilot. ‘I’m still to this day amazed that he could have flown into the Pentagon,’ the former employee said. ‘He could not fly at all.’"43

Another Times article similarly noted that when Hanjour enrolled in February 2001 "at a Phoenix flight school for advanced simulator training to learn how to fly an airliner, a far more complicated task than he had faced in earning a commercial license", his "instructors thought he was so bad a pilot and spoke such poor English that they contacted the Federal Aviation Administration to verify that his license was not a fake."46

According to FAA inspector Michael Gonzales, when Pan Am International Flight Academy contacted the FAA to verify that Hanjour’s license was valid, "There should have been a stop right then and there." The Associated Press reported that Gonzales "said Hanjour should have been re-examined as a commercial pilot, as required by federal law."37 But that was not done. Instead, the FAA inspector who "even sat next to the hijacker, Hani Hanjour, in one of the Arizona classes" and "checked records to ensure Hanjour’s 1999 pilot’s license was legitimate" concluded that "no other action was warranted" and actually suggested that Hanjour get a translator to help him complete his class. "He offered a translator," said the school’s manager, who "was surprised" by the suggestion. "Of course, I brought up the fact that went against the rules that require a pilot to be able to write and speak English fluently before they even get their license."45

As with the fact that multiple visa applications from Hanjour should have been denied, the 9/11 Commission made no mention of any of this. One would think that a commission tasked with investigating the events of 9/11 with the goal of assessing what went wrong and fixing the system to prevent any loss of life in the future would have looked into who issued Hanjour visas in Jeddah and why the red flags were ignored. One would think that misconduct from FAA officials and contractors that allowed a terrorist to improperly obtain certification to fly a plane would also not be outside of the purview of the investigation – yet the Commission's report is absolutely silent on this.

Turning to the footnote for the claim that Hanjour "completed" training at Jet Tech, one can read (emphasis added): "For his training at Pan Am International Flight Academy and completion by March 2001, see FBI report ‘Hijackers Timeline,’ Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 8, 2001, entries...)". But turning to that source, the FBI timeline does not state that Hanjour "completed" the training, only that he "ended" the course on March 16.47 The truth is that, as the Washington Post reported, "Hanjour flunked out after a month" at Jet Tech.12 Offering corroboration for that account, the Associated Press similarly reported that "Hanjour did not finish his studies at JetTech and left the school."48

The 9/11 Commission additionally noted that Hanjour had later gone to Air Fleet Training Systems in New Jersey and "requested to fly the Hudson Corridor" along the Hudson River, which passed the World Trade Center. He was permitted to fly the route once, "but his instructor declined a second request because of what he considered Hanjour’s poor piloting skills", the Commission admits. However, the report continues, "Shortly thereafter, Hanjour switched to Caldwell Flight Academy in Fairfield, New Jersey, where he rented small aircraft on several occasions during June and July. In one such instance on July 20, Hanjour – likely accompanied by Hazmi – rented a plane from Caldwell and took a practice flight from Fairfield to Gaithersburg, Maryland, a route that would have allowed them to fly near Washington, D.C. Other evidence suggests Hanjour may even have returned to Arizona for flight simulator training earlier in June."49

But here, the pattern of deception continues by omission of other relevant facts. The report does not explain that when Hanjour was permitted to fly the Hudson Corridor in May of 2001, unlike his subsequent rental flights, it was with an instructor on a check ride, and not a solo flight.24 By saying his instructor there "considered" Hanjour’s skills to be poor, the 9/11 Commission implied this was merely a subjective judgment, but that others considered him perfectly capable. Although it would have been a standard practice, there’s no indication from FBI records that Caldwell actually required him to go on a check ride before renting the plane. Even more significantly, the 9/11 Commission omitted altogether the fact that, while Hanjour was allowed to rent from Caldwell Flight Academy, he was rejected yet again by yet another school shortly thereafter that the record shows did require a check ride.

In August 2001, less than one month before 9/11, Hanjour took flight lessons at Freeway Airport in Bowie, Maryland.24 As the New York Times observed, Hanjour "still seemed to lack proficiency at flying". When he showed up "asking to rent a single-engine plane", he attempted three flights with two different instructors, and yet "was unable to prove that he had the necessary skills" to be allowed to rent the plane. "He seemed rusty at everything," said Marcel Bernard, the chief flight instructor at the school.26 The Washington Post similarly reported that to "the flight instructors at Freeway Airport in Bowie", Hanjour "was just a bad pilot." And "after supervising Hanjour on a series of oblong circles above the airport and Chesapeake Bay, the instructors refused to pass him because his skills were so poor, Bernard said. ‘I feel darn lucky it went the way it did,’ Bernard said, crediting his instructors for their good judgment and high standards."50 The London Telegraph also reported that Hanjour claimed to have 600 hours of flight time, "but performed so poorly on test flights that instructors would not let him fly alone."51 Newsday reported that when flight instructors Sheri Baxter and Ben Conner took Hanjour on three check rides, "they found he had trouble controlling and landing the single- engine Cessna 172."52 The Los Angeles Times reported, "‘We have a level of standards that we hold all our pilots to, and he couldn’t meet it," said the manager of the flight school. Hanjour could not handle basic air maneuvers, the manager said."19

The deception does not end with this rather egregious omission. As noted, the 9/11 Commission also suggested that Hanjour obtained further training in a flight simulator, again, in an apparent attempt to exaggerate his training. But a review of the records shows that the preponderance of evidence indicates Hanjour was actually in New Jersey throughout the time period in question in June. FBI records show that on May 31, 2001, after having been rejected at Air Fleet Training Systems, Hanjour rented a Cessna 172 at Caldwell Flight Academy, where he "made an error taxing [sic] the airplane upon his return." On June 6, he rented a single- engine aircraft. The FBI placed him in Paterson, New Jersey, on June 10. Then he rented a plane again on June 11, 18, and 19. The FBI has Hanjour (along with Nawaf Al-Hazmi) obtaining a mailbox at Mailboxes, Etc. in Fort Lee, New Jersey, on June 26, and opening a bank account and making an ATM withdrawal in New Jersey on June 27.53

Somewhere in there, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that "evidence suggests" Hanjour again trained on a simulator in Arizona. To begin with, the simulator at the Sawyer School of Aviation in Phoenix was for small aircraft and was nothing like the cockpit of a Boeing 757 – another fact omitted by the Commission.54 But this perhaps becomes a moot point when one realizes that the evidence shows Hanjour never left New Jersey. Turning to the footnote for this claim, the Commission stated that documents from Sawyer "show Hanjour joining the flight simulator club on June 23, 2001". But, the footnote acknowledges, "the documents are inconclusive, as there are no invoices or payment records for Hanjour, while such documents do exist for the other three" who joined the club at that time. The actual evidence thus demonstrates clearly that while Hanjour may have signed up (something which may have been possible over the phone or via the internet), he did not actually attend. The footnote further acknowledges that "Documentary evidence for Hanjour, however, shows that he was in New Jersey for most of June, and no travel records have been recovered showing that he returned to Arizona after leaving with Hazmi in March."55

The second piece of "evidence" that "suggests" Hanjour took further flight simulator training is a Sawyer employee who "identified Hanjour as being there during that time period, though she was less than 100 percent sure." The FBI document cited in the footnote for that claim was obtained by Intelwire.com, but it is almost entirely redacted, so it’s impossible to verify the actual nature of this eyewitness testimony.56 But another document cited further into the same footnote also refers to the eyewitness from Sawyer, who described the four men who had joined the club. The first "UNSUB" (unidentified subject) was "short and stocky". The second was 5’9"-5’10", 170 pounds, and "medium build". The third was 5’8", 170 pounds, and "medium build". And the fourth was 5’6"-5’7" with a beard and mustache. Other eyewitness descriptions for Hanjour offered in the same FBI document have him as being no more than 5’6" (one witness from Arizona Aviation, the document notes, "confirmed that he was only about 5’0" tall"), 140-150 pounds, and very slight and thin, with short, curly hair. This clearly rules out the first three subjects, leaving only the detail- lacking fourth description as being the only one possibly matching Hanjour’s description. But the details given are far too vague to suggest a positive identification, particularly given the witness’s own admission that she wasn’t sure if it was Hanjour.57

Even more significantly, that same FBI document reveals that it was not during the FBI’s initial interview with the witness that she identified that fourth "unsub" as Hanjour, as the 9/11 Commission report implies by citing the report from the FBI’s initial interview for that claim in the footnote. Rather, it was later, during a second interview that occurred after the names and images of the hijackers had been shown repeatedly in the media that she picked Hanjour’s out of a photo lineup. The FBI summary of that later interview states that according to the witness, Hanjour "has the same general characteristics and is very similar appearing as the person she saw at Sawyer.... However, she could not be 100% sure."57

The third and final piece of "evidence" is another witness who identified Hanjour as being "in the Phoenix area during the summer of 2001", citing the FBI document just discussed, which is redacted enough that this claim cannot be readily verified. But the document does show additionally that Hanjour’s membership was good only from June 23 until August 8, at which time it expired.57

Thus, the 9/11 Commission would have the public believe that sometime after June 19, Hanjour went from the east coast to Arizona without leaving any paper trail (i.e. airline or car rental records, ATM withdrawals, etc.), signed up for a two-week flight simulator club on June 23 without leaving any record he ever actually paid or even showed up (whereas records did exist for other members), only to change his mind and return again to be back in New Jersey with Nawaf Al-Hazmi three days later. In other words, what the evidence actually suggests is that the eyewitness testimony is unreliable and that, contrary to the Commission’s assertion, Hanjour never left New Jersey during that time.

There is a clear pattern of misleading and untruthful statements in the 9/11 Commission’s final report that cannot be dismissed as mere error. Rather, the evidence is incontrovertible that the Commission willfully and deliberately sought to present a falsified story of the alleged hijacker Hani Hanjour; not to relate the facts to the public, but rather to cement a legend in the public mind; not to investigate and draw conclusions based on the facts, but to start with a conclusion – the official account of 9/11 – and manipulate the facts to suit the government’s own conspiracy theory.

The Fiction Perpetuated

The mainstream media has dealt with the problematic nature of the official story in a number of ways. As already seen, one method has simply been to exaggerate characterizations of Hanjour's competence. The official story as related by the New York Times that Hanjour "overcame the mediocrity of his talents" is not merely unsupportable by the evidence, but stands in stark contrast to the available known facts. The legend is also maintained by the mainstream media through false claims, such as the Washington Post’s assertion that Hanjour’s pilot certificate allowed him to fly commercial jets. While the Los Angeles Times suggested Hanjour "convinced a lot of people he barely knew how to fly", the underlying assumption of the article was that, despite his apparent ineptitude in the cockpit, he really did know how to fly. The public is apparently supposed to believe that he was merely pretending to an incompetent pilot even though he was actually quite skillful. The mainstream media have a tendency to mock and ridicule anyone who dares even to just question the official narrative, all the while putting forth such utter absurdities as this.

As the evidence surfaced that Hanjour was not the pilot extraordinaire the public was initially told he must have been in order to carry out the attack on the Pentagon, another narrative began to emerge. While most of the mainstream media simply ignored the evidence, or, as in the case of the New York Times, drew conclusions that were contradicted by some of their own reporting. In no small part due to the 9/11 Commission report’s findings, the fiction remained firmly embedded in the minds of the public that Hanjour, through determination and perseverance, overcame all obstacles in order to acquire the skills necessary to pilot Flight 77 into the Pentagon.

There was, however, at least some acknowledgment of the major hole in that theory. A few media reports did acknowledge that Hanjour was a horrible pilot and that all evidence demonstrated that he never "overcame his mediocrity". But rather than calling the official theory into question in doing so, these accounts simply offered a revisionist account in order to maintain the legend.

Gone was the story that the hijackers' "capacity to operate the aircraft was substantial", that the attacks were "conducted in a technically proficient way", that "It is not that easy to land these kinds of aircraft at very specific locations with accuracy or to direct them with the kind of accuracy, which was deadly in this case". No more was the expert opinion that "the hijackers must have been extremely knowledgeable and capable aviators", that Flight 77's final maneuver was "a difficult high-speed descending turn". Vanished was the view that Flight 77 "was flown with extraordinary skill", even so that it "reminded observers of a fighter jet maneuver", that this was evidence of "a great talent" in the cockpit.

In the place of that conventional wisdom, the new narrative that began to emerge in some accounts was that it really wasn't that difficult a maneuver after all, and even a novice pilot like Hani Hanjour – or anyone who’s ever flown a small aircraft and perhaps spent some time playing a flight simulator game, for that matter – could have, with just a bit of luck, pulled it off.

The New American presented this new narrative by quoting Ronald D. Bull, a retired United Airlines pilot, as saying, "It’s not that difficult, and certainly not impossible." But Bull was apparently not speaking specifically with regard to the Pentagon, as he then added, "If you’re doing a suicide run, like these guys were doing, you’d just keep the nose down and push like the devil." In this case, Bull seems to have had the attacks on the World Trade Center, and not the Pentagon, in mind. Moreover, even if Bull also had the Pentagon in mind, he was obviously only considering a situation where the pilot was flying in a straight line towards his target. Thus, if he was also speaking with regard to the Pentagon, he was quite apparently uninformed as to the actual flight path the plane took.

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."58 It’s true that the Pentagon was a very big target. But Williams was apparently similarly aware, when he was asked to comment, of the plane’s final descending maneuver; or of the fact that this maneuver put the plane on a path that reduced the margin to a mere 26.5 feet (a few feet lower, the plane crashes into the ground; a few feet higher, the plane overshoots the target); or that the plane wasn't flying at a constant airspeed, but was rather accelerating rapidly, thus creating more lift that needed compensating for with subtle precision in order to stay within that margin for error; or that the plane wasn't just ambling along at something near landing speed, but was screaming along at an incredible 530 mph. To put that into perspective, cruising speed for airliners is about 600 mph at 30,000 feet of altitude, where the air is less dense. At sea-level that would be equivalent to about 300 mph hour, about double safe landing speed. A velocity of 530 mph at sea-level would be supersonic speed if it were possible to maintain at cruising altitude.59

In both cases, the expert pilots seem to assume that Hanjour simply lined up the hijacked plane and flew a straight line into the building at a speed at which an aircraft could more easily be controlled by an inexperienced pilot. Needless to say, neither pilot’s statements accurately reflect the actual situation with regard to Flight 77. There is no indication that the New American bothered to fill either Bull or Williams in on the specifics of what Flight 77 actually did when it sought them out to "debunk" the assertion that Hanjour wasn’t a capable enough pilot to have pulled it off.

Offering a similar revisionist account, airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home."60

So, according to this narrative, Hanjour’s "textbook" "fighter jet maneuver" in a Boeing 757 is evidence that he was a "shitty pilot" and any pilot wannabe with some rudimentary training and maybe just a little bit of luck could have done it. It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields. These remarks are perhaps not so much the result of an attempt to challenge conventional wisdom as they were simply demonstrative that Smith made very little effort to actually understand the actual nature of Flight 77’s final flight path before writing that it is a "myth" that Hanjour was not a pilot capable of having performed that maneuver. His characterization of Hanjour’s final maneuver as "loops and turns and spirals" indicates that Smith was generalizing without having any real concept of what Flight 77 actually did in its final minutes. A further indication that Smith really just didn’t know what he was talking about was his suggestion that Hanjour "possibly" had "help from the 757’s autopilot" in pulling off those final maneuvers, which is both patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.

The German magazine Der Spiegel also made the rare attempt to actually address this issue, but found it sufficient enough merely to opine that "This is not difficult to accomplish" and similarly suggesting practically anyone could do it since it was "a maneuver that can be practiced with any flight simulator software."61 End of discussion.

The public was originally told that attack on the Pentagon obviously required a fairly high level of sophistication in the cockpit. It was conventional wisdom that being able to maneuver a large jetliner required a certain level of training, a certain level of skill. The public was then told that Hanjour was the pilot among the 19 hijackers who had the most training and the greatest piloting skill. As the facts emerged and it became evident that Hanjour did not have the requisite level of skill, the government chose to manipulate the evidence in order to maintain its theory. The 9/11 Commission served to cement the legend of Hani Hanjour into history, and the mainstream media, for the most part, accepted and maintained that legend even when much of their own reporting revealed facts that contradicted it. In a few cases, there was acknowledgment that Hanjour was a "shitty" pilot after all, but in such cases the official account was still maintained by throwing common sense out the window and reversing the original consensus that it must have taken a skilled pilot to have performed that final, fatal maneuver.

Perhaps this revisionist retelling of the official story is the correct one. Perhaps the conventional wisdom that it would actually take a skilled pilot to competently control a large jetliner is really wrong. Perhaps it’s true that any second-rate pilot who has trouble controlling even a Cessna-172 could get into the cockpit of a Boeing 757 and do what Hani Hanjour is said to have done. Or, on the other hand, perhaps the revisionist account is just as much nonsense as the story that Hanjour "persevered" and "overcame his mediocrity".

Whichever the case, many questions about the events of 9/11 remain to this day unanswered, despite the appointment of the 9/11 Commission ostensibly to investigate and provide answers to those questions. And whichever the case, the conclusion is inescapable that the 9/11 Commission deliberately attempted to deceive the public about the piloting capabilities of Hani Hanjour.

Why?

  1. Statement for the Record FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III Joint Intelligence Committee Inquiry, September 26, 2002. [<-]
  2. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office," New York Times, June 19, 2002. [<-]
  3. FBI Names 19 Men as Hijackers,” Washington Post, September 15, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  4. Working Draft Chronology of Events for Hijackers and Associates,” FBI, November 14, 2003 (hereafter “FBI Hijackers Timeline”), p. 41. The complete FBI timeline is available for download online. See: “Newly Released FBI Timeline Reveals New Information about 9/11 Hijackers that Was Ignored by 9/11 Commission”, HistoryCommons.org, February 14, 2008. The timeline reads: “FAA issued Commercial Pilot certificate #2576802 to [redacted] [sic].” The “[sic]” is in the original. Why the name “Hani Saleh Hanjoor” is redacted is unclear. [<-]
  5. The Final Report of the National commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, p. 225-227 (hereafter “9/11 Commission Report”). [<-]
  6. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 530. [<-]
  7. Global Security, September 14, 2001. [<-]
  8. Hijackers ‘knew what they were doing,’” CNN, September 12, 2001. The quote is CNN’s paraphrase of what the flight expert told them. [<-]
  9. ‘Get These Planes on the Ground’: Air Traffic Controllers Recall Sept. 11,83; ABC News, October 24, 2001. [<-]
  10. Prima ry Target: 189 Dead Or Missing From Pentagon Attack”, CBS News, September 21, 2001. [<-]
  11. Marc Fisher and Don Phillips, “On Flight 77: ‘Our Plane is Being Hijacked,’” Washington Post, September 12, 2001; Page A01 [<-]
  12. Steve Fainaru and Alia Ibrahim, “Mysterious Trip to Flight 77 Cockpit,” Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  13. Flight Path Study – American Airlines Flight 77,” NTSB, February 19, 2002. [<-]
  14. A copy of the NTSB video was obtained by the group Pilots for 9/11 Truth. It is available for viewing on YouTube (accessed April 8, 2010). [<-]
  15. The Pentagon,” GlobalSecurity.org. [<-]
  16. Don Van Natta and Lizette Alvarez, “A Hijacked Boeing 757 Slams Into the Pentagon, Halting the Government,” New York Times, September 12, 2001. [<-]
  17. The Pentagon,” Great Buildings Online (accessed March 27, 2010). Boeing 757 Technical Specifications from Boeing.com (accessed Marcy 27, 2010). [<-]
  18. DoD News Briefing on Pentagon Renovation,” Department of Defense, September 15, 2001. [<-]
  19. Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<- ] [<-]
  20. FBI Summary about Alleged Flight 77 Hijacker Hani Hanjour”, Scribd.com (accessed April 6, 2010; herafter “FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour”). This document was cited by the 9/11 Commission. The National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) possesses the Commission’s records and has released many documents to the public. See: “9/11 Commission Records,” NARA (accessed March 28, 2010). Many of the released records are available online at Scribd.com. See: “9/11 Document Archive,” Scribd.com (accessed March 28, 2010). [<-]
  21. Washington Post, September 10, 2002. [<- ]
  22. Charles M. Sennott, “Why bin Laden plot relied on Saudi hijackers,” Boston Globe, March 3, 2002. [<-]
  23. Joel Mowbray, “Visas that Should Have Been Denied,” National Review Online, October 9, 2002. [<-] [<-] [<-]
  24. FBI Timeline for Hani Hanjour. [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-] [<-]
  25. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  26. David W. Chen, “Man Traveled Across U.S. In His Quest to Be a Pilot,” New York Times, September 18, 2001. [<-] [<-]
  27. Who Did It? FBI Links Names to Terror Attacks,” ABC News, October 4, 2001. [<-]
  28. Newsday, September 23, 2001. [<-]
  29. “Hanjour an unlikely terrorist,” Cape Cod Times, October 21, 2001. [<-]
  30. Carol J. Williams, John-Thor Dahlburg, and H.G. Reza, “Mainly, They Just Waited,” Los Angeles Times, September 27, 2001. [<-]
  31. V. Dion Haynes, “Algerian man didn’t try to hide, neighbors say,” Chicago Tribune, October 2, 2001. [<-]
  32. FBI Summary of Information, Lofti Raissi”, January 4, 2004. [<-] [<-]
  33. 9/11 Commission Report p. 520. [<-]
  34. Hanjour’s FAA airman documentation from the 9/11 Commission records released by NARA are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  35. Hanjour’s FAA airman records are available online at Scribd. [<-]
  36. Kellie Lunney, “FAA contractors approved flight licenses for Sept. 11 suspect,” Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  37. Report: 9/11 Hijacker Bypassed FAA,” Associated Press, September 30, 2004 [<-] [<-]
  38. Government Executive, June 13, 2002. [<-]
  39. The 9/11 Commission Report, p. 12. The report notes that “To our knowledge none of them [the hijackers] had ever flown an actual airliner before.” [<-]
  40. Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Sections 61.123, 61.129. Present requirements in these regards are the same as they were when Hanjour obtained his certificate. See the version revised as of January 1, 1999. [<-]
  41. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 521- 522. [<-]
  42. FBI FD-302, James Charles McRae,” April 10, 2001. [<-]
  43. Jim Yardley, “A Trainee Noted for Incompetence,” New York Times, May 4, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  44. FAA Probed, Cleared Sept. 11 Hijacker in Early 2001,” Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  45. David Hancock, “FAA Was Alerted to Sept. 11 Hijacker,” CBS News, May 10, 2002. [<-] [<-]
  46. Jim Yardley and Jo Thomas, “For Agent in Phoenix, the Cause of Many Frustrations Extended to His Own Office,” New York Times, June 19, 2001 [<-]
  47. FBI Hijacker’s Timeline, p.123. [<-]
  48. Associated Press, May 10, 2002. [<-]
  49. 9/11 Commission Report, p. 242. [<-]
  50. Brooke A. Masters, Leef Smith, and Michael D. Shear, “Dulles Hijackers Made Maryland Their Base,” Washington Post, September 19, 2001; Page A01. [<-]
  51. Piecing together the shadowy lives of the hijackers,” Telegraph, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  52. Thomas Frank, “Tracing Trail of Hijackers,” Newsday, November 24, 2004. [<-]
  53. FBI Hijackers Timeline, p. 150, 154, 156-157, 161-162, 166-167. [<-]
  54. Jacques Billeaud, “More Arizona ties to terror suspect,” Associated Press, September 20, 2001. [<-]
  55. "9/11 Commission Report," p. 529. The document cited by the 9/11 Commission was obtained by Intelwire.com. “FBI Memorandum, Sawyer Aviation records”, October 12, 2001. [<-]
  56. FBI FD-302, Interrogation of Tina Beth Arnold (Sawyer Aviation) ,” FBI, October 17, 2001. [<-]
  57. FBI Summary of Information, Lotfi Raissi,” FBI, January 4, 2004 [<-] [<-] [<-]
  58. William F. Jasper, “9-11 Conspiracy Fact & Fiction," The New American, May 2, 2005. [<-]
  59. Airplane Flight: How High? How Fast? ” NASA (accessed April 17, 2010). Relative airspeed is calculated by the equation B d v2 = W, where factor B depends on the profile of a given set of wings (larger wings produce more lift), d is air density, v is velocity, and W is the airplane’s weight. At 30,000 feet, air density is about ¼ that at sea level, allowing an airliner to double its speed to produce the same amount of lift. [<-]
  60. Patrick Smith, “A sk the pilot,” Salon, May 19, 2006. [<-]
  61. What Really Happened: The 9/11 Fact File,” Der Spiegel, December 20, 2006. [<-]

Jeremy R. Hammond is the editor of Foreign Policy Journal, a website providing news, analysis, and opinion from outside the standard framework provided by government officials and the corporate media. He was among the recipients of the 2010 Project Censored Awards for outstanding investigative journalism and is the author of The Rejection of Palestinian Self- Determination. You can contact him at: jeremy@foreignpolicyjournal.com. Read other articles by Jeremy, or visit Jeremy's website.

This article was posted on Sunday, April 18th, 2010 at 9:00am and is filed under 9-11, Disinformation, FBI, General.



"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   21:28:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: FormerLurker (#135)

Aggravator has his talking points and can't, or won't, see past them. He is hopeless and if your goal is to reach him with the truth I think your time can be put to better use. You know that old saying, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I am afraid that is the case with aggravator and buck.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-30   21:28:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: James Deffenbach (#139)

You know that old saying, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I am afraid that is the case with aggravator and buck.

It's more like Aggravator is trying to get the final word on this, and declare any real evidence just "cherry picked" k00k stuff, where it's quite obvious to me at least that he's the one who cherry picks a quote out of context and presents it as the ultimate final say on what Hanjour was capable of, ignoring the other 99% of what evidence there is in terms of Hanjour's actual capabilities as opposed to how Flight 77 was actually flown once the alleged hijacking took place.

I just want to make sure he knows that WE all know he's lying, and we also know that he is just here to spread disinformation.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-30   21:35:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: FormerLurker (#140)

I think you have done a good job with that. You and several others--if buck and aggravator had any sense of shame they would probably be thinking of ways to shuffle off this mortal coil.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-30   21:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: abraxas (#109)

to peer into turtle's eyes one need only to lower them self to the height of a pug.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-30   22:13:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: abraxas, Turtle (#109)

i'm laughing at your exchange. :P

christine  posted on  2010-07-30   22:37:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: James Deffenbach (#139)

You know that old saying, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see. I am afraid that is the case with aggravator and buck.

it is worse because they have chosen to be willfully blind they wish all were as blind.


the most factual thing ever posted by buckeroo
I have no freaking' clue. buckeroo posted on 2010-07-24 21:33:00 ET

IRTorqued  posted on  2010-07-30   23:06:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: abraxas (#104)

The best we can do is encourage this line of thinking, James. : )

Indeed it is. I think aggravator should hie himself off to a site with people on it who would actually enjoy being lied to and given the establishment talking points. I know there has to be a site like that somewhere just chock full of people who like it when someone who couldn't see the truth if it smacked him in the face lied to them all day every day. But he is wasting valuable time by staying here posting to people who ain't buying what he's selling and he needs to get a move on.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-30   23:15:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#138) (Edited)

The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001.

So not only have you been debunked about Hanjour never having any license, you are now debunked about him not having completed type certification for multi- engine jets. Which per FAR's is just as good for type certification on a simulator as getting behind the controls. And a lot less expensive or dangerous both for student and pilot training company.

Airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home.

So you have a real airline pilot who expresses my sentiments exactly. So much for "Pilots for 911 truth."

You're on a rollllll....

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."58 It’s true that the Pentagon was a very big target.

But Williams was apparently similarly aware, when he was asked to comment, of the plane’s final descending maneuver; or of the fact that this maneuver put the plane on a path that reduced the margin to a mere 26.5 feet (a few feet lower, the plane crashes into the ground; a few feet higher, the plane overshoots the target.

I must have said this at least 100 times. Ground effect, ground effect, ground effect makes the aircraft flown at high speed want to continue flying, not crash. As Williams says "Point the nose down and fly like the devil" to do a crash just AGL.

An air traffic controller from Dulles International Airport told ABC News, "The speed, the maneuverability, the way that he turned, we all thought in the radar room, all of us experienced air traffic controllers, that that was a military plane. You don't fly a 757 in that manner. It's unsafe."

So who the eff is "he" if not Hanjour? And the ATC did not actually say it was not a 757. Just that you "aren't supposed to fly" the 757 the way it was observed flying. So what, so was it a 757 or wasn't it? If if wasn't, where the eff did the "real 757" go which the ATC should have known becuase it was his job as ATC to know where the airplanes were, not how the pilots coulda, shoulda, woulda flown those airplanes.

Whatever the case, many questions about the events of 9/11 remain to this day unanswered, despite the appointment of the 9/11 Commission ostensibly to investigate and provide answers to those questions. And whichever the case, the conclusion is inescapable that the 9/11 Commission deliberately attempted to deceive the public about the piloting capabilities of Hani Hanjour.

Arm waving with no specifics to rebut

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-30   23:15:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: IRTorqued (#144)

it is worse because they have chosen to be willfully blind they wish all were as blind.

Well, that doesn't seem to be working out too well for them.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-30   23:23:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: AGAviator (#146)

The instructor advised him to discontinue but Hanjour said he could not go home without completing the training. In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001.

Uh huh. You neglected to state the source, and the source is the 9/11 Commission Report. You also neglected the analysis of the claims they made.

Turning to the footnote for the claim that Hanjour "completed" training at Jet Tech, one can read (emphasis added): "For his training at Pan Am International Flight Academy and completion by March 2001, see FBI report ‘Hijackers Timeline,’ Dec. 5, 2003 (Feb. 8, 2001, entries...)". But turning to that source, the FBI timeline does not state that Hanjour "completed" the training, only that he "ended" the course on March 16.47 The truth is that, as the Washington Post reported, "Hanjour flunked out after a month" at Jet Tech.12 Offering corroboration for that account, the Associated Press similarly reported that "Hanjour did not finish his studies at JetTech and left the school."48


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   0:32:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: AGAviator (#146)

So not only have you been debunked about Hanjour never having any license, you are now debunked about him not having completed type certification for multi- engine jets. Which per FAR's is just as good for type certification on a simulator as getting behind the controls. And a lot less expensive or dangerous both for student and pilot training company.

Uh huh. Read the post I just posted, it shows how much of a liar you are.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   0:33:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: AGAviator (#146)

Airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets. This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it, possibly with the help from the 757’s autopilot. Striking a stationary object – even a large one like the Pentagon – at high speed and from a steep angle is very difficult. To make the job easier, he came in obliquely, tearing down light poles as he roared across the Pentagon’s lawn." Hanjour had all the skill that was required, Smith suggested, adding "You can learn it at home.

You again neglected to post the analysis of those claims, and you also neglect all of the evidence indicating the plane did NOT do "loops and turns and spirals", it was in a set of highly controlled and precise descending turns, levelling off at treetop level at 400 mph, and descending to 20 feet of the ground at 530 mph and hitting the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall.


So, according to this narrative, Hanjour’s "textbook" "fighter jet maneuver" in a Boeing 757 is evidence that he was a "shitty pilot" and any pilot wannabe with some rudimentary training and maybe just a little bit of luck could have done it. It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields. These remarks are perhaps not so much the result of an attempt to challenge conventional wisdom as they were simply demonstrative that Smith made very little effort to actually understand the actual nature of Flight 77’s final flight path before writing that it is a "myth" that Hanjour was not a pilot capable of having performed that maneuver. His characterization of Hanjour’s final maneuver as "loops and turns and spirals" indicates that Smith was generalizing without having any real concept of what Flight 77 actually did in its final minutes. A further indication that Smith really just didn’t know what he was talking about was his suggestion that Hanjour "possibly" had "help from the 757’s autopilot" in pulling off those final maneuvers, which is both patently ridiculous and demonstrably false.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   0:40:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: FormerLurker (#150)

you also neglect all of the evidence indicating the plane did NOT do "loops and turns and spirals", it was in a set of highly controlled and precise descending turns, levelling off at treetop level at 400 mph, and descending to 20 feet of the ground at 530 mph and hitting the 71 foot tall Pentagon wall.

If the plane didn't do "loops, turns and spirals" it did not do "fighter jet " quality maneuvers.

Again, fighter pilots pull 8+ G turns, they have to to avoid SAM's, and a 1/2 G turn isn't even student pilot 30 degree banking maneuver..

It was easier to hit a target merely 5 stories high at a nearly horizontal angle ("obliquely" as Smith misleadingly claims), than to simply point the nose down to hit a target the size of 22 football fields

Pointing the nose down and diving into the building from above would put most of the energy, momentum and crash force into digging a big hole in the ground, instead of laterally spreading as much damage acoss as many floors as was possible. They knew what they were doing tying to come in from the side.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   1:53:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, all (#151)

Again, fighter pilots pull 8+ G turns, they have to to avoid SAM's, and a 1/2 G turn isn't even student pilot 30 degree banking maneuver..

The further we go the more apparent your dishonest attempts to misrepresent the facts.

The full facts of the maneuver is that it was a rapid decrease in altitude of 7,000 feet in 2.5 minutes while making a smooth, precise, 270 degree spiral descent. Again you are trying to make this look like a maneuver any pilot could do easily, and yet professional pilots, and air traffic controllers, described it as a maneuver requiring considerable skill. Something we have well established than Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor was not know for - incredible skill. Rather he was known as an incompetent and was allegedly behind the controls of a Jumbo Jet, something he had NEVER flown, was not trained on, and in fact he had NEVER flown ANY jet aircraft of ANY size, at ANY TIME. In fact the largest aircraft he is ever know to have flown was a twin engine, propeller driven, 4 seat, Piper Apache.

So, again it is shown that you are attempting to misrepresent the facts in order to put them in the reach of the known incompetent, as testified to by every instructor he had, Hani Hanjour/Hanjoor.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-07-31   3:57:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: OInk, buckeroo, turtle, FormerLurker, AKA Stone (#152) (Edited)

The further we go the more apparent your dishonest attempts to misrepresent the facts.

You keep blathering about dishonesty while offering no specifics other than your own hot air.

You're about to get clouted with some simple basic math, using your own numbers, even you won't be able to contradict.

And to think after this simple exercise, which will be impossible for you to debunk, of all the hot air and insults and charges you've spent day after day trying to defend your indefensible theories. And all the attaboys you've received from a handful of people as ignorant as you.

The full facts of the maneuver is that it was a rapid decrease in altitude of 7,000 feet in 2.5 minutes while making a smooth, precise, 270 degree spiral descent.

Rapid smooth decreases in altitude generate substantial G's. 1/2 G decreases in altitude aren't even student pilot challenges.

Now some basic math you can't even be bothered to calculate before posting time after time Half Truther k00kology and its accompanying insults and claims of superior knowledge to people who are trying to talk some sense into you.

(1) 7,000 feet/2.5 minutes*minute/60 seconds = 46.667 Feet per Second Vertical Descent Rate

(2) 7,000 feet/2.5 minutes/5,280 feet/mile*60 minutes/hour = 31.818 Miles per Hour Vertical Descent Rate

(3) 46.667 Feet per Second Vertical Descent Rate*(60*60 Seconds per Hour)/Mile/5,280 feet =31.818 Miles per Hour Vertical Descent Rate.

So here you are.

You claim that vertically descending 46.667 Feet per Second, or 31.818 Miles per Hour, is "a maneuver requiring considerable skill."

HAHAHAHAA.

You go faster downhill on your local roller coaster.

Again you are trying to make this look like a maneuver any pilot could do easily, and yet professional pilots, and air traffic controllers, described it as a maneuver requiring considerable skill.

Give it up.

Once again, you are pwned.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   4:46:15 ET  (3 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: AGAviator (#151)

If the plane didn't do "loops, turns and spirals" it did not do "fighter jet " quality maneuvers.

First off, it's obvious you're repeating the same "well it didn't fly at Mach 2, perform rolls, spirals", and all the other insane stuff you list.

Thing is, WHO SAID THAT HE DID? It's the SPEED the aircraft was flying in the descent, and the sheer precision of the turn that made the air traffic controllers thing it was a military aircraft. Do I have to post those quotes again, for the 50th time or so?

Again, fighter pilots pull 8+ G turns, they have to to avoid SAM's, and a 1/2 G turn isn't even student pilot 30 degree banking maneuver..

I get it, you're trying to erase that idea that it COULD have been a fighter jet. Well fighter jets don't HAVE to perform flips and rolls to prove they're a fighter jet, since they ARE fighter jets.

Regardless, nobody claimed Hanjour was flying a fighter jet, people remarked that it behaved like a fighter jet.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   4:48:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#154) (Edited)

Regardless, nobody claimed Hanjour was flying a fighter jet, people remarked that it behaved like a fighter jet

Per my above post, is descending 46.667 Feet per Second = 31.818 Miles per Hour, vertical speed, for 2.5 minutes, a maneuver requiring "fighter jet" piloting skills or "fighter jet" aircraft speed?

Yes or no, please.

LOL.

Thing is, WHO SAID THAT HE DID? It's the SPEED the aircraft was flying in the descent, and the sheer precision of the turn that made the air traffic controllers thing it was a military aircraft.

Do I have to post those quotes again, for the 50th time or so?

Yeah, you do, along with your explanation why you've said "50 times or so" that a 31 MPH vertical descent speed is a "military aircraft" characteristic.

And then your explanation for this obsession for posting things that make no sense "50 times or so."

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   4:53:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: AGAviator (#151)

Pointing the nose down and diving into the building from above would put most of the energy, momentum and crash force into digging a big hole in the ground, instead of laterally spreading as much damage acoss as many floors as was possible. They knew what they were doing tying to come in from the side.

That's imbecilic. The airliner could have flown in on an angle, hit the roof, take out a few rings maybe, and splash fuel all over the roof. It would have been the easiest and sure fire way to score a hit.

Since Hanjour is alleged to have flown that aircraft, he would have chosen the easiest way, not the hardest possible way there was.

The thought of flying a 757 at treetop level at over 400 mph and then dropping down to 20 feet off the ground to hit a 71 tall target at 530 mph, requires suprehuman ability, and there is probably no pilot on earth who could actually do it, not in a 757 at least.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   4:56:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: FormerLurker (#156)

There is probably no pilot on earth who could actually do it, not in a 757 at least.

That's what simulators are for. They tell you with considerable accuracy what is possible and not possible, without actually damaging the craft.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   4:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: AGAviator (#155)

Per my above post, is descending 46.667 Feet per Second = 31.818 Miles per Hour, vertical speed, for 2.5 minutes, a maneuver "fighter jet" piloting skills or "fighter jet" aircraft speed?

First off, where do you get your values? I didn't see you post a link, so provide your source. Are you claiming that's the fastest it moved through the air in the turns it made?

It was flying at a much higher speed than a commercial airliner would be flown at that altitude, and that is why it was travelling at 400 mph when it levelled off at treetop level.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   5:00:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: FormerLurker (#158) (Edited)

First off, where do you get your values? I didn't see you post a link, so provide your source.

OInk quoted the 7,000 feet in 2.5 minutes vertical descent as evidence of "fighter jet" maneuvering, LOL. It's probably cited on the tapes and ATC research too.

At this point I barely care. You guys have been wrong so many times, while claiming to be right, I will need you to prove anything you say, instead of me wasting my time, debunking what you never ever bothered to check out yourselves, before you've schlepped it onto this site.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   5:06:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: AGAviator (#157)

That's what simulators are for. They tell you with considerable accuracy what is possible and not possible, without actually damaging the craft.

What, are you trying the say the pilots that flew it did it remotely from a simulator? You're not making any sense.

If it was a 757, it would have been aerodynmically impossible to fly that low to the ground at over 400mph, so any pilot would have to have been either superhuman, or a computer perhaps.

It certainly wasn't Hanjour, who skipped class, did poorly while he was there, and flunked out of 737 simulator training.

Besides all that, he couldn't even really even fly a Cessna single engine plane too well either. Hanjour wasn't a super-pilot, that much is indisputable.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   5:06:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: FormerLurker (#160)

If it was a 757, it would have been aerodynmically impossible to fly that low to the ground at over 400mph

Ground effect generates extra lift. Even a flaps down, nose up, power trimmed, and gear extended passenger jet going 150 mph instead of 450 mph needs thrust reversers in most cases to keep from going off a 10,000 foot runway.

The simulator knows that. If the simulators are wrong about any important facts, they would not be FAA certified for training, and the sellers of the programs and devices would have been sued years ago.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   5:11:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#160) (Edited)

What, are you trying the say the pilots that flew it did it remotely from a simulator? You're not making any sense

I'm saying a simulator will tell you the possibility or impossiblity of flying barely above the earth with gear up and at high speed. And Hanjour had access to simulators, whether he actually practiced or did not practice this maneuver.

Hanjour...flunked out of 737 simulator training.

Nope.

He was discouraged from continuing, but he "persevered" and eventually completed it.

That link is already posted.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   5:18:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: AGAviator (#161) (Edited)

Ground effect generates extra lift. Even a flaps down, nose up, power trimmed, and gear extended passenger jet going 150 mph instead of 450 mph needs thrust reversers in most cases to keep from going off a 10,000 foot runway.

Are you smoking something other than tobacco?

Ground effect generates extra life, that is true. That is why it'd be practically impossible for a 757 to fly that low to the ground at that speed, ground effect would prevent it from going any lower.

A pilot would have to try to fight ground effect with the nose down. However, since the was aircraft was accelerating from 400 mph to 530 mph, the faster the aircraft flew, the more lift would have been created since ground effect increases with speed, so that is where the impossible part comes into the picture.

There'd be no way to counter the increasing ground effect at that speed, the plane would have wanted to climb, and there would have been no way to descend with the nose level at that speed from 60 feet high to 20 feet high while accelerating.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   5:29:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: AGAviator (#162)

He was discouraged from continuing, but he "persisted" and eventually completed it.

The 9/11 Commission made that claim. The FBI witness reports do not say he "completed it successfully". He dropped out, and did not successfully complete the school.

That is documented fact.

It is documented fact that he frequently skipped school, didn't do his homework, and could not really understand what he was being taught.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   5:32:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: FormerLurker (#163) (Edited)

There'd be no way to counter the increasing ground effect at that speed, the plane would have wanted to climb

Try it on a simulator, keeping in mind that clipping 5-6 light standards, rocking the wings on final approach, and brushing a wing against construction equipment are evidence of a plane not under complete control.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   5:59:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: FormerLurker (#164)

Post #138

In early 2001, he started training on a Boeing 737 simulator at Pan Am International Flight Academy in Mesa. An instructor there found his work well below standard and discouraged him from continuing. Again, Hanjour persevered; he completed the initial training by the end of March 2001

911 Truth states Hanjour finished 737 Simulator in March 2001, and its source is footnoted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   6:05:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: AGAviator (#166)

911 Truth states Hanjour finished 737 Simulator in March 2001, and its source is footnoted.

Post a link. Possibly they just copied what the 9/11 Commission stated, which is not the truth. I doubt they stated that was the final word on it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   10:28:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: AGAviator (#165)

Try it on a simulator, keeping in mind that clipping 5-6 light standards, rocking the wings on final approach, and brushing a wing against construction equipment are evidence of a plane not under complete control.

Why don't you. I doubt you've ever been in either a commercial airliner simulator or a real airliner cockpit. You can blow smoke all you want, any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60 feet off the ground in a 757 at over 400 mph and maintain that altitude for any distance, ESPECIALLY if accelerating.

Well no shit Sherlock the aircraft allegedly hit light poles (even though there are reports it didn't, but that's another story concerning what REALLY hit the Pentagon). The light poles were between the Pentagon and the approach the aircraft allegedly took. What'd you think, you can fly lower than the top of the light poles and not touch them somehow, sort of like Magick Lightpoles or something?

As far as wobbling, you haven't provided ANY evidence of that. And again, Hanjour would had to have been a superhuman pilot to fly as low as he allegedly did and as fast as he allegedly did, keeping that plane from climbing while travelling at over 400 mph so close to the ground, all while accelerating to 530 mph.

He most certainly wouldn't have been able to descend to 20 feet off the ground.

The guy couldn't even fly a Cessna 172.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   10:38:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: FormerLurker (#168)

Magick Lightpoles

Magic(k)al Light Poles™ and Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™. D@mn, is there no end to the tricks they will play on us?!?!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-31   10:41:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: abraxas (#114)

lol.........You precocious?

If you don't know what the word means, I'll be glad to explain it to you.

We'll starrt with the correct pronounciation.

Pree...ko....shush.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-31   11:26:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: FormerLurker (#168)

Any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60 feet off the ground in a 757 at over 400 mph and maintain that altitude for any distance, ESPECIALLY if accelerating.

No they will not.

Any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60

Prove it

What'd you think, you can fly lower than the top of the light poles and not touch them somehow?

Who hit the light poles

As far as wobbling, you haven't provided ANY evidence of that.

I have. There are also plenty of pictures of the tops of construction equipment being hit by the starboard wing, and eye witness testimony.

And again, Hanjour would had to have been a superhuman pilot to fly as low as he allegedly did

Wrong. Ground effect keeps the plane from crashing into the ground unless the nose is pointed sharply downwards.

Keeping that plane from climbing while travelling at over 400 mph so close to the ground, all while accelerating to 530 mph.

Wrong.

A competent ATP with 38 years experience has already been quoted, on this thread, saying "Point the nose down and fly like the devil" to do exactly that.

He most certainly wouldn't have been able to descend to 20 feet off the ground.
Oh really? How do airplanes ever land then?

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   11:56:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: James Deffenbach (#169)

Magic(k)al Light Poles™ and Magic(k)al Jet Fuel™. D@mn, is there no end to the tricks they will play on us?!?!

And don't forget the Magic(k)al Wings, where the wings vaporized into nothing, and must have contained a different blend of Magic(k)al Jet Fuel that instead of causing the Pentagon to collapse, it simply vanished into THIN AIR ALONG WITH THE WINGS!

Of course, we can't forget the Magic(k)al Pentagon Windows which either allow jet aircraft wings to pass though them without breaking the glass, or were so durable the wings and fuel crashed into them at 530 mph and BOUNCED OFF before they VANISHED.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   12:03:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: Any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60 feet off the ground in a 757 at over 400 mph and maintain that altitude for any distance, ESPECIALLY if accelerating.

You: No they will not.

Well possibily not those pilots who have never actually flown a large heavy aircraft with relatively low wing-loading (such as a commercial jet), or those in training who haven't studied anything about aerodynamics yet, but pretty much any honest commericial airline pilot will tell you that it is practically impossible.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   12:10:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: Turtle (#170)

I know what the word means, hence the questions: You precocious?

I think you have confused premature development with arrested development. : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-07-31   12:13:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: FormerLurker (#172)

And don't forget the Magic(k)al Wings, where the wings vaporized into nothing, and must have contained a different blend of Magic(k)al Jet Fuel that instead of causing the Pentagon to collapse, it simply vanished into THIN AIR ALONG WITH THE WINGS!

Of course, we can't forget the Magic(k)al Pentagon Windows which either allow jet aircraft wings to pass though them without breaking the glass, or were so durable the wings and fuel crashed into them at 530 mph and BOUNCED OFF before they VANISHED.

Oh, the unmitigated HORROR of all the Magic(k)! It is scary to think about it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-07-31   12:16:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: abraxas (#174)

I think you have confused premature development with arrested development. : )

Peons -- especially little troll peons -- are not allowed to insult Turtle!

I order you to pound your forehead against the floor until forgiven.

"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools." - Douglas Adams

Turtle  posted on  2010-07-31   12:23:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: Any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60

You: Prove it

Well it'd be sort of hard to talk to every pilot in the world now wouldn't it.

But first let's correct your obviously poor job of cutting and pasting. You forgot to finish the sentence I had posted, and either willfully or negligently infer that I said an aircraft can't fly below 60 feet. OF COURSE aircraft fly lower 60 feet when they land, but they DON'T land at 530 mph, they land at about 150 mph.

This is what I ACTUALLY said, which conveys a different meaning than what you cut from my original comment;

"any pilot and any aeronautical engineer will state it's virtually impossible to fly less than 60 feet off the ground in a 757 at over 400 mph and maintain that altitude for any distance, ESPECIALLY if accelerating."

Here's what Nila Sagadevan, an aeronautical engineer and a qualified pilot of heavy aircraft, had to say about the matter.

From The Impossibility of Flying Heavy Aircraft Without Training

I shan’t get into the aerodynamic impossibility of flying a large commercial jetliner 20 feet above the ground at over 400 MPH. A discussion on ground effect energy, tip vortex compression, downwash sheet reaction, wake turbulence, and jetblast effects are beyond the scope of this article (the 100,000-lb jetblast alone would have blown whole semi-trucks off the roads.)

Let it suffice to say that it is physically impossible to fly a 200,000-lb airliner 20 feet above the ground at 400 MPH.

The author, a pilot and aeronautical engineer, challenges any pilot in the world to do so in any large high-speed aircraft that has a relatively low wing- loading (such as a commercial jet). I.e., to fly the craft at 400 MPH, 20 feet above ground in a flat trajectory over a distance of one mile.

Why the stipulation of 20 feet and a mile? There were several street light poles located up to a mile away from the Pentagon that were snapped-off by the incoming aircraft; this suggests a low, flat trajectory during the final pre- impact approach phase. Further, it is known that the craft impacted the Pentagon's ground floor. For purposes of reference: If a 757 were placed on the ground on its engine nacelles (I.e., gear retracted as in flight profile), its nose would be almost 20 above the ground! Ergo, for the aircraft to impact the ground floor of the Pentagon, Hanjour would have needed to have flown in with the engines buried 10-feet deep in the Pentagon lawn. Some pilot.

At any rate, why is such ultra-low-level flight aerodynamically impossible? Because the reactive force of the hugely powerful downwash sheet, coupled with the compressibility effects of the tip vortices, simply will not allow the aircraft to get any lower to the ground than approximately one half the distance of its wingspan - until speed is drastically reduced, which, of course, is what happens during normal landings.

In other words, if this were a Boeing 757 as reported, the plane could not have been flown below about 60 feet above ground at 400 MPH. (Such a maneuver is entirely within the performance envelope of aircraft with high wing-loadings, such as ground-attack fighters, the B1-B bomber, and Cruise missiles - and the Global Hawk.)


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   12:28:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: What'd you think, you can fly lower than the top of the light poles and not touch them somehow?

You: Who hit the light poles

Do you really need to ask? The official story alleges that Hanjour flew a 757 down to ground level at 530 mph, where the wings clipped the light poles since they were in the way.

So which is it, do you wish to debate using the "facts" alleged by the official story, or do you wish to look at eyewitness testimony which states that immediately after Flight 77 allegedly impacted the Pentagon, those poles were NOT downed?

All of it is irrelevant in regards to Hanjour's alleged skills, since the only way to have hit the Pentagon as it is alleged WOULD be to knock down those light poles. In reality, the wings would have been torn to shreds or at least sprung a massive leak if they had impacted light poles at 530 mph.

Yet, there is NO external fire visible in the videos taken soon after the aircraft is alleged to have impacted. Where'd the fuel go? If those wings hit the poles they'd be torn and spewing fuel everywhere.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   12:41:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: As far as wobbling, you haven't provided ANY evidence of that.

You: I have. There are also plenty of pictures of the tops of construction equipment being hit by the starboard wing, and eye witness testimony.

You've made many unsubstantiated claims, but I don't recall you ever posting any sort of proof in terms of eyewitness testimony stating that. Could you post a link?

Oh, and the construction equipment was obviously in the way as well, so what'd you expect, THEY would be MAGICKAL as well, and would allow the wings and/or engines to pass through them?

That's the thing, with all of these alleged collisions, the fuel would have sprayed everywhere, yet didn't.

As far as the wings wobbling, the only thing wobbling is you. Any sort of wobble at that speed would have caused the aircraft to veer to the left or to the right, resulting in the need for more exaggerated counter moves to keep the plane from crashing, which WOULD have made it crash.

Of course, if it WASN'T a 757, something like a drone or a fighter painted LIKE a AA 757, well then THAT might have wobbled a bit as it was seeking the perfect heading for the plan to work.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   12:49:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: And again, Hanjour would had to have been a superhuman pilot to fly as low as he allegedly did

You: Wrong. Ground effect keeps the plane from crashing into the ground unless the nose is pointed sharply downwards.

Planes don't fall out of the sky although there IS no ground effect above a certain altitude, which would be roughly 60 feet for a 757 according to the source I've provided.

Are you trying to say that planes rely on ground effect to stay airborne?

Ground effect provides ADDED lift, and is a function of proximity to the ground and air speed. The closer the aircraft is to the ground, the greater the ground effect. However, there is minimal ground effect at landing speed. Ground effect becomes excessive at 400 mph however, and effectively prevents the plane from going any lower. The way to descend is to slow down, yet the alleged Flight 77 SPED UP, causing ground effect to INCREASE. The plane would have been trying to climb, and it would have taken massive effort to prevent it from doing so.

It certainly couldn't have DROPPED ALTITUDE, coming within 20 feet of the ground, all while keeping the nose LEVEL, yet THAT is how the aircraft entered the Pentagon if the observed damage was in fact the result of the impact. It would have either created a large gash in the lawn leading up to the wall and not penetrated the building as deeply if the nose had been down, or it would have struck higher up the wall with a level nose since the increased ground effect would have caused it to climb.

So then, it more than likely WASN'T a 757.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   13:03:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: Keeping that plane from climbing while travelling at over 400 mph so close to the ground, all while accelerating to 530 mph. Wrong.

You: A competent ATP with 38 years experience has already been quoted, on this thread, saying "Point the nose down and fly like the devil" to do exactly that.

I'd like to see him do it in a 757 flying over 400 mph 20 feet from the ground for a distance identical to that of the alleged 757. He could prove it once and for all if it were possible.

Of course, there is NEVER any deliberate disinformation presented by "experts", right?

You're trying to sell the idea that a guy who basically crapped his pants in a Cessna 172 single engine airplane, one who couldn't even fly a circle around the airport and had trouble descending with it for a proper landing, flew a multi-engine jumbo jet (without EVER having flown ANY sort of jet before in his life) at 20 feet off the ground travelling at 530 mph.

Yeah, he "flew like the devil", that's a great scientific analysis your pal presented. He couldn't fly a paper airplane, never mind a Boeing 757 at unheard of speeds so close to the ground.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   13:10:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: AGAviator (#171)

Me: He most certainly wouldn't have been able to descend to 20 feet off the ground.

You: Oh really? How do airplanes ever land then?

BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Don't you tire of misrepresenting what I've said? You know damn well I didn't claim aircraft never drop to 20 feet.

The part you left out is as follows;

"As far as wobbling, you haven't provided ANY evidence of that. And again, Hanjour would had to have been a superhuman pilot to fly as low as he allegedly did and as fast as he allegedly did, keeping that plane from climbing while travelling at over 400 mph so close to the ground, all while accelerating to 530 mph. "

Since you are apparently VERY unfamiliar with English, let me say it again...

There is no possible way on earth Hani Hanjour could have flown a Boeing 757 at 20 feet off the ground, WHILE ACCELERATING TO 530 MPH.

In fact, Hani Hanjour more than likely wouldn't have been able to fly a CESSNA 172 at IT'S top speed so close to the ground without crashing it, since he was such a lousy "pilot", one who was basically incompetent at anything related to flying an aircraft.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   13:20:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#181)

I have not followed this thread so I must say I don't know what side of the 911 story related to Hani Hanjour either of you represent...moving along to why I am posting to the thread, I thought both of you might get a kick out of reading MSM's description of Hani Hanjour ( spoon fed to them by the FBI) - it's pretty funnny, and even more so considering that at the time we Amerikens ( myself being one of the dumb bunnies) slurped down this stinky poopy crapola like it were sweet tasting syrup...

Enjoy!

www.washingtonpost.com/wp...ics/attack/hijackers.html

Hani Hanjour

Obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 from the Federal Aviation Administration. [ how easy peasy was that?]The license expired six months later because he failed to complete a required medical exam.[ oops - he forgot to do the one single requirement] In 1996, he received flight training for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., but did not finish the course because his instructors thought he was not proficient enough.[ but the FDA thought he was great no questions asked except for needing a physical exam ] He listed his address as a post office box in Taife, Saudi Arabia,[ red flag, red flag - are PO boxes even exist in SA?] but he also has been linked to addresses in San Diego and Hollywood, Fla. His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket. [ say what????? he just waltzed on the plane 'cause he was a Big Cheese???]

scrapper2  posted on  2010-07-31   14:01:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#181) (Edited)

I'd like to see him do it in a 757 flying over 400 mph 20 feet from the ground for a distance identical to that of the alleged 757. He could prove it once and for all if it were possible.

That's what simulators are for. They replicate the entire performance envelope of the craft including risky maneuvers that could cause the plane to crash in real life.

But of course you don't want to concede simulators are useful and valid, because that will undermine your claim that Hanjour's completed 737 training prepared him to fly a multi engine 757.

Of course, there is NEVER any deliberate disinformation presented by "experts", right?

Anonymous self taught internet rubes are far more likely disinformation purveyors than known ATP's with publicly documented 38 year service records and a stack of endorsed log books with tens of thousands of hours of piloting time.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   14:14:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: scrapper2, buckeroo, turtle (#183) (Edited)

I thought both of you might get a kick out of reading MSM's description of Hani Hanjour ( spoon fed to them by the FBI) - it's pretty funnny, and even more so considering that at the time we Amerikens ( myself being one of the dumb bunnies) slurped down this stinky poopy crapola like it were sweet tasting syrup.

There is not much disagreement on whether Hanjour was a crummy pilot.

The contention comes from the CT's saying he absolutely had to be a great pilot in order to pull a 1/2 G turn, when just to get a pilot license you need to pull a 2G 360 degree turn + or - 200 feet.

And the CT's saying he absolutely had to be a great pilot in order to descend at 46.667 feet per second or 31.818 MPH vertically over the time span of 2 minutes.

I say "ridiculous" to both claims of the need for piloting to be excellent to perform at these simple levels. It's the classic strawman argument. Put up something untrue ("fighter pilot level skills needed to fly the 757"), rebut it, then claim victory.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   14:22:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: AGAviator, scrapper2, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, HOUNDDAWG, christine, abraxas, Dakmar, James Deffenbach, all (#185) (Edited)

Even if he did fly it, why weren't the windows broken?

edit: Where the wings should have hit them.



wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-31   15:19:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: All, *9-11* (#186)



wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-31   16:14:02 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: AGAviator (#185)

The contention comes from the CT's saying he absolutely had to be a great pilot in order to pull a 1/2 G turn, when just to get a pilot license you need to pull a 2G 360 degree turn + or - 200 feet.

No, that is YOUR straw man argument, it is NOT what anyone here has been saying other than you.

Air traffic controllers at Dulles International Airport thought that it was a military aircraft due to the rate of speed the jet flew and its precision turns made while descending, something not that unusual for a fighter, but highly unusual for a commercial airliner.

Flying at treetop level at 400 mph accelerating to 530 mph is not something an ordinary commercial airliner does either, in case you thought that was normal.

Thing is, Hanjour had NEVER flown ANY sort of jet aircraft in his life, and truly sucked at flying a single engine Cessna 172. No matter how many ways you try to beat a dead horse, there's no possible way Hanjour could pull off the manuevers witnessed that day while flying a multi-engine jumbo jet. He more than likely wouldn't have been able to do it in a Cessna 172 either.

Contrary to your cherry picked out of context "quote", Hanjour didn't just take over the plane as soon as it took off, and he didn't just "point the nose in the direction of the building and crash" it.

Why do you cling to this religious belief of yours, where ALL the evidence points AWAY from Hanjour having flown the plane? Where's ANY proof that HE DID?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   19:34:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: AGAviator (#184)

That's what simulators are for. They replicate the entire performance envelope of the craft including risky maneuvers that could cause the plane to crash in real life.

And we're just supposed to believe YOU that it is even possible to fly 20 feet off the ground at 530 mph in a simulator, right? How many times have YOU sat in a 757 flight simulator? I can tell you the number of times Hanjour did. ZERO.

But of course you don't want to concede simulators are useful and valid, because that will undermine your claim that Hanjour's completed 737 training prepared him to fly a multi engine 757.

How many more times are you going to misrepresent the fact that Hanjour flunked out of that school? He did NOT complete the course, he hardly ever showed up for class, didn't do his homework, and couldn't understand the instructors while there, and was an extremely poor student in terms of basic flight skills.

In fact he was SO bad the school called the FAA to see if his "license" was genuine, as they thought it had to be a fake.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   19:39:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: FormerLurker, All (#187)

Isn't it odd that the date on the video is Sep. 12?

Maybe someone was trying to tell us something?



wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-31   19:46:29 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: wudidiz (#190)

Isn't it odd that the date on the video is Sep. 12?

Maybe someone was trying to tell us something?

I see a smoke trail, and the aircraft is too small to be a 757, IF the video is even authentic.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   19:51:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: scrapper2 (#183) (Edited)

Obtained a commercial pilot's license in April 1999 from the Federal Aviation Administration. [ how easy peasy was that?]The license expired six months later because he failed to complete a required medical exam.[ oops - he forgot to do the one single requirement] In 1996, he received flight training for a few months at a private school in Scottsdale, Ariz., but did not finish the course because his instructors thought he was not proficient enough. [ but the FDA thought he was great no questions asked except for needing a physical exam ] He listed his address as a post office box in Taife, Saudi Arabia,[ red flag, red flag - are PO boxes even exist in SA?] but he also has been linked to addresses in San Diego and Hollywood, Fla. His name was not on the American Airlines manifest for the flight because he may not have had a ticket. [ say what????? he just waltzed on the plane 'cause he was a Big Cheese???]

You should read the following article, it describes how the 9/11 Commission lied about Hanjours abilities, where they tried to build him up as some sort of commericial airline pilot, where in reality he never flew a commericial aircraft, and never one larger than a twin engine Piper Apache propeller driven plane, and even THAT is highly questionable since he couldn't fly a smaller single engine plane.

Al Qaeda’s Top Gun - Willful Deception by the 9/11 Commission

Each and every instructor who delt with him described him as a awful pilot, terrible in English, and worse in terms of flight skills.

He tried to rent a single engine Cessna 172, but was refused on three different occasions because he couldn't fly it to the satisfaction of flight instructors who went with him on a check flight.

Yet he is said to have flown a Boeing 757 from Ohio to Washington DC, utilizing the aircraft's flight management computer to change the course to Washingon, yet he had never seen a 757 flight management computer before in his life.

He is then said to have made such tight precision turns while descending that air traffic controllers thought it was a military aircraft. He is then said to have leveled off at treetop level flying at 400 mph, accelerated to 530 mph, dipped down to 20 feet off the ground with the nose level, and then flew the aircraft into the Pentagon wall at the ground floor level.

All this from a person who couldn't fly a Cessna 172 in a circle around an airport.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   19:54:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: wudidiz (#186)

Even if he did fly it, why weren't the windows broken?

He'll need to ask for some talking points on that one. It's probably going to be a delayed response since it's a weekend and the Ministry of Truth is understaffed today.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   19:56:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: AGAviator (#184)

Anonymous self taught internet rubes are far more likely disinformation purveyors than known ATP's with publicly documented 38 year service records and a stack of endorsed log books with tens of thousands of hours of piloting time.

You think yourself smarter and more of an expert than commercial airline pilots, aeronautical engineers, flight instructors, and seasoned air traffic controllers.

So yeah, you are just an Internet rube talking trash.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-07-31   19:58:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#188)

Air traffic controllers at Dulles International Airport thought that it was a military aircraft due to the rate of speed the jet flew and its precision turns made while descending, something not that unusual for a fighter, but highly unusual for a commercial airliner.

You keep flogging that 1 ATC quote which you don't even place in its full context.

The controller says nothing about misidentifying the 757 as a military jet, simply that you aren't supposed to fly a commercial jet in what she called an "unsafe" manner for a 757 passenger airliner.

The ATC didn't just haphazardly pick a 757 instead of a 737, 747, or PA-125 in her statement. She knew the jet they observed with no transponder signal was supposed to be a hijacked 757.

The claim that a turn covering 270 to 330 degrees is garbage because mid turn the plane disappeared from radar. How does somebody who doesn't even see the last half of a 270 to 330 degree turn become qualified to say whether the turn was "precision" or not? HAHAHAHA.

What you're pinning all your hopes on, is that according to one ATC, descending at 46 feet per second or 31.818 MPH vertically, is supposed to be "unsafe." HAHAHAHA.

That means any pilot who pulls a 2G turn and descends at 100 feet per second or more is either "unsafe" or has "fighter pilot" skill levels. HAHAHAHHA.

Like I said earlier, all your out-of-context ATC statement really means is what my first ground control instructor said: ATC's and airline execs don't want their passenger jets to spill any passenger drinks. Well good for them. That simply was not in the cards when an aircraft got hijacked by a suicide pilot who wasn't interested in landing safely.

That doesn't mean the plane was not a hijacked 757 just because the hijacker chose to fly a plane into a building in a way not anticipated by people in the towers.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   21:09:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#194) (Edited)

Anonymous self taught internet rubes are far more likely disinformation purveyors than known ATP's with publicly documented 38 year service records and a stack of endorsed log books with tens of thousands of hours of piloting time.

You think yourself smarter and more of an expert than commercial airline pilots, aeronautical engineers, flight instructors, and seasoned air traffic controllers.

So yeah, you are just an Internet rube talking trash

What an desperate rube talking trash you're becoming trying to conflate off the cuff ATC remarks into some evidence of a conspiracy.

From your own link.

Airline pilot Patrick Smith, writing for Salon, said that it was one of "the more commonly heard myths that pertain to the airplanes and their pilots" that "the terrorist pilots lacked the skill and training to fly jetliners into their targets.

This is an extremely popular topic with respect to American 77. Skyjacker Hani Hanjour, a notoriously untalented flier who never piloted anything larger than a four- seater, seemed to pull off a remarkable series of aerobatic maneuvers before slamming into the Pentagon." Smith’s answer to this was simply to flip conventional wisdom on its head. He opined that "If anything, his loops and turns and spirals above the nation’s capital revealed him to be exactly the shitty pilot he by all accounts was. To hit the Pentagon squarely he needed only a bit of luck, and he got it...

...

Similarly quoted was George Williams, a pilot for Northwest Airlines for 38 years, who said, "I don’t see any merit to those arguments [that Hanjour couldn’t have flown Flight 77 into the Pentagon]. The Pentagon is a pretty big target and I’d say hitting it was a fairly easy thing to do."

Both your quotes are footnoted and are from qualified personnel with decades of actually flying airplanes, internet talking rube. Deal with them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   21:19:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: wudidiz (#187)

I see a jet spiral contrail in between the large tan pylon on the right and the fireball, in Impacts #2 and #3.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   21:24:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: FormerLurker (#193)

It's probably going to be a delayed response since it's a weekend and the Ministry of Truth is understaffed today

It's a weekend and I'd rather go out on a boat with my family than waste time trying to talk sense into a small group of people who want to live in lalaland.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   22:01:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#198) (Edited)

It's probably going to be a delayed response since it's a weekend and the Ministry of Truth is understaffed today

It's a weekend and I'd rather go out on a boat with my family than waste time trying to talk sense into a small group of people who want to live in lalaland.

Translation:

I don't have an answer yet for why the windows weren't broken.



wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-31   22:21:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: All (#199)

Deux hun



wudidiz  posted on  2010-07-31   22:22:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: wudidiz (#199)

Translation:

I don't have an answer yet for why the windows weren't broken.

No. Since you're someone with way more questions than answers yourself, you'll have to give more to get more.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-07-31   23:27:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#202. To: wudidiz (#190)

The more I look at that clip the more I think it was a computer animation created in some government super computer. The fire ball from the explosion following impact just does not look quite right.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-01   0:04:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#203. To: AGAviator, FormerLurker, wudidiz, critter, HOUNDDAWG, farmfriend, christine, all (#196)

Both your quotes are footnoted and are from qualified personnel with decades of actually flying airplanes, internet talking rube. Deal with them.

The problem of course, if you want to try playing the appeal to authority card, is that there are a lot more experienced pilots who disagree with your 2 commentators many of whom have every bit as much flying experience.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pilots for 9/11 Truth is an organization of aviation professionals and pilots throughout the globe who have gathered together for one purpose. We are committed to seeking the truth surrounding the events of the 11th of September 2001. Our main focus concentrates on the four flights, maneuvers performed and the reported pilots. We do not offer theory or point blame at this point in time. However, we are focused on determining the truth of that fateful day based on solid data and facts -- since 9/11/2001 is the catalyst for many of the events shaping our world today -- and the United States Government doesn't seem to be very forthcoming with answers or facts.

We stand with the numerous other growing organizations of Firefighters, Medical Professionals, Lawyers, Scholars, Scientists, Architects and Engineers, Veterans, Religious and Political Leaders, along side family members of the victims -- family members of soldiers who have made the ultimate sacrifice -- including the many Ground Zero workers who are now ill or have passed away, when we ask for a true, new independent investigation into the events of 9/11. We do not accept the 9/11 Commission Report and/or "hypothesis" as a satisfactory explanation for the sacrifice every American has made and continues to make -- some more than others.

Thank you for taking the time to inform yourself.

- pilotsfor911truth.org

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A partial list of the membership:

Acronyms
TT = Total [Flight] Time
CA = Captain
FO = First Officer
FE = Flight Engineer
CFI = Certified Flight Instructor
II = Instrument Instructor
MEI = Multiengine Instructor
ASEL = Airplane Single Engine Land
ATP = Airline Transport Pilot
A&P = Aircraft And Powerplant Mechanic

CORE MEMBERS LISTED IN THE ORDER IN WHICH THEY JOINED. LIST UPDATED REGULARLY.

Robert Balsamo
4000TT Commercial, Instrument, Multi, CFI II MEI
Corporate Chief Pilot
135 Capt
121 FO Independence Air/Atlantic Coast Airlines
King Air C-90/200, Dornier 328JET

Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
30,000+ Total Flight Time
707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777
Pan Am, United
United States Air Force (ret)
Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
Command time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

Captain Ross Aimer
UAL Ret.
CEO, Aviation Experts LLC
40 years and 30,000 hrs.
BS Aero
A&P Mech.
B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings Command time in:
- N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
- N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)
www.AviationExperts.com

Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
23,000 hours
27 years in the airlines
B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds Command time in:
- N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77)
- N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)

John Lear
Son of Bill Lear
(Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
More than 40 years of Flying
19,000+ TT
23 Type ratings
Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

Jeff Latas
-Over 20 years in the USAF
--USAF Accident investigation Board President
--Flew the F-111, T38, and F-15E
--Combat experience in the F-15E includes Desert Storm and four tours of duty in Northern and Southern Watch
--Weapons Requirements Officer, USAF HQ, Pentagon
--Standard and Evaluations Flight Examiner, Command level
-Currently Captain for JetBlue Airways

Guy S. Razer, LtCol, USAF (Ret)
3,500+ Hours Total Flight Time
F-15E/C, F-111A/D/E/F/EF, F-16, F-18, B-1, Mig-29, SU-22, T-37/38, Various Cvilian Prop
Combat Time: Operation Northern Watch
USAF Fighter Weapons School Instructor
NATO Tactical Leadership Program Instructor/Mission Coordinator
USAF Material Command Weapons Development Test Pilot
Combat Support Coordination Team 2 Airpower Coordinator, South Korea
All Service Combat Identification Evaluation Team Operations Officer
Boeing F-22 Pilot Instructor
MS Aeronautical Studies, Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University

Dwain Deets
MS Physics, MS Eng
Former Director, Aerospace Projects, NASA Dryden Flight Research Center Served as Director, Research Engineering Division at Dryden
Recipient of the NASA Exceptional Service Award
Presidential Meritorious Rank Award in the Senior Executive Service (1988)
Selected presenter of the Wright Brothers Lectureship in Aeronautics
Associate Fellow - American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA)
Included in "Who's Who in Science and Engineering" 1993 - 2000
Former Chairman of the Aerospace Control and Guidance Systems - Committee of the Society of Automotive Engineers
Former Member, AIAA Committee on Society and Aerospace Technology
37 year NASA career

Field McConnell (Captain Sherlock?)
23,000+ hours
CV580,DC9,MD80,B727,A320,DC10
NCA,REP,NWA
A4,F4,F16 USN,USMC, ND ANG
www.captainsherlock.com
Forced to retire due 9/11 exposure
www.hawkscafe.com

Captain Paul A. Trood
B737-800/400 Captain
Qantas Airways
Australia
Experience: 18,000 flight hours

Jim Mustanich
ATP 20,000+ hours
Typed in CE-500, DHC-7, EMB-110, BA-3100
Aircraft flown include Boeing 727,737, Douglas DC-9, MD-80
United Air Lines, American International Airlines, Air Pacific Airlines, West Air Airlines
6-7 years corporate flying in Cessna Citations
Factory demo pilot for Cessna Citations

Ted Muga
Naval Aviator - Retired Commander, USNR
A/C experience - Grumman E-1 and E-2 ( Approx, 3800 hours )
Pan American World Airways - Retired Dec. 1991 ( that's when PanAM went bankrupt )
Flight Engineer/First Officer -- Boeing 707 & Boeing 727 ( approx. 7500 hours )

Col Robert Bowman
President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies
Executive Vice President of Millennium III Corporation
retired Presiding Archbishop of the United Catholic Church
101 combat missions in Vietnam
directed all the “Star Wars” programs under Presidents Ford and Carter
recipient of the Eisenhower Medal
George F. Kennan Peace Prize
President’s Medal of Veterans for Peace
Society of Military Engineers' ROTC Award of Merit (twice)
Six Air Medals
Ph.D. is in Aeronautics and Nuclear Engineering from Caltech chaired 8 major international conferences
one of the country’s foremost experts on National Security
independent candidate for President of the US in 2000
http://thepatriots.us

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-01   0:44:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#204. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, scrapper2, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, abraxas, Dakmar, James Deffenbach, all (#186)

Even if he did fly it, why weren't the windows broken where the wings would have hit them?

Well, you see, the wings struck the steel reinforced concrete along their leading edges close to the fuselage and then they immediately folded up and into the fuselage, similar to the way fighter wings fold before being lowered below deck on carriers.

Of course had the plane's wings folded with the engines facing out the building would have shown the impact of the combined tonnage of the heavy, solid alloy engines, and that would have been more likely to damage the facade than the relatively soft nose of the plane.

ERGO, the engines folded up and in facing the fuselage, but that presents another problem. In order for the wings to fold that neatly along the fuselage the engines would have met inside the plane, and the combined width of the engines is wider than the narrow-body on every 757 fuselage that hasn't been "subject to govt explainin'".

And, if the engines were pointed down (on wings that rotated 90 degrees while folding) the fuselage should have been neatly sheared where the engines met, crushing the plane shell between them before vaporizing against each other.(the engines' length on the vertical being roughly equal to the diameter of the fuselage.) It's unlikely that the crushed shell would survive being sandwiched between engines that were vaporized. (Were you shocked that there were no graphic simulations of American Airlines Flight 77 miraculous wing folding phenomenon the way they fabbed up the colorful but incorrect CGI cartoons of the WTC collapse? Mee neether)

So, the wings and engines must have been traveling at such incredible folding speeds that the high tensile-multiple alloy engines were literally flattened and liquified on impact with each other inside the plane, and the two large pieces of the now sheared shell followed the same trajectory into the building, all because the main wing struts were able to bend like soft rubber to tangential angles without the wings shearing off the way they do when commercial jets hit trees and all other "steel reinforced hardened concrete bomb proof military headquarters".

The fact that the govt wants us to believe that something like this is what really happened is all we need to know, and any science or physics that raise doubts may be disregarded.

9/11 may be summarized thus: As you know, govt spokesmen are rock solid reliable, more so than any inconvenient or "incongruous math calculations or scientific principles."

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-01   3:57:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#205. To: HOUNDDAWG (#204)

So, the wings and engines must have been traveling at such incredible folding speeds that the high tensile-multiple alloy engines were literally flattened and liquified on impact with each other inside the plane,

Oh noooooo, Magic(k)al Jet Engines™ too! Oh the horror!

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-01   8:09:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#206. To: AGAviator (#0)

And oddly enough, there's more than a passing resemblance that Bradley Manning has, to Lyndie England.

What bothers me about this whole deal, is that the people of this country aren't horrified, or demanding that we immediately cease activity in the region.

It is better to be hated for what you are, than loved for what you are not. - Tommy The Mad Artist.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2010-08-01   9:04:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: HOUNDDAWG (#204)

9/11 may be summarized thus: As you know, govt spokesmen are rock solid reliable, more so than any inconvenient or "incongruous math calculations or scientific principles."

excellent. your whole post so well articulated. ty.

christine  posted on  2010-08-01   10:18:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#208. To: HOUNDDAWG, AGAviator, all, *9-11* (#204)

So, the wings and engines must have been traveling at such incredible folding speeds that the high tensile-multiple alloy engines were literally flattened and liquified on impact with each other inside the plane, and the two large pieces of the now sheared shell followed the same trajectory into the building, all because the main wing struts were able to bend like soft rubber to tangential angles without the wings shearing off the way they do when commercial jets hit trees and all other "steel reinforced hardened concrete bomb proof military headquarters".

lol

pwned



wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-01   11:26:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#209. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo, turtle (#203) (Edited)

Both your quotes are footnoted and are from qualified personnel with decades of actually flying airplanes, internet talking rube. Deal with them.

The problem of course, if you want to try playing the appeal to authority card, is that there are a lot more experienced pilots who disagree with your 2 commentators many of whom have every bit as much flying experience

And the problem with your appeal to numbers card is that as of 2006, there were over 597,000 active licensed pilots in the US, of which about 596,000 were not in the "Pilots for 911 Truth" and either actively opposed their theories, or thought they were irrelevant. And several hundred thousand additional inactive pilots who were also not in "Pilots for 911 Truth."

So we're back to Less Than Six Percenter territory.

How Many Pilots in US

As of the end of 2006, there were 597,109 active certificated pilots, according to the AOPA Jan. 12, 07 newsletter which cites the FAA's estimates. This number has been declining slowly over the long term, down from a high of over 827,000 pilots in 1980. The numbers include:

84,866 student pilots
242 recreational pilots
939 sport pilots
236,148 private pilots
130,234 commercial pilots
144,681 airline transport pilots

Within those groups, there were:

37,837 glider pilots
10,511 balloon pilots
41,306 rotor (helicopter) pilots

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   12:55:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#210. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#206) (Edited)

What bothers me about this whole deal, is that the people of this country aren't horrified, or demanding that we immediately cease activity in the region.

That would actually be a useful outcome. The problem with this passionate clinging to unsupported whodunit theories, is it takes people's focus away from current events and how to deal with them.

I've repeatedly posted that while a rather small percentage believes the USG actually engineered the destruction of the buildings on 911, a much larger percentage believes certain elements within the USG had some advance knowledge and chose to look the other way, allowing it to happen to bring about causus belli which would allow them to carry out their agenda.

However the small percentage which believes in active participation ,spends most of its time attacking the larger percentage which believes in passive neglect. The internecine fighting then distracts from the overriding issue of "What's happened has happened. Now how do we deal with the consequences of it, here and now?" The small percentage is unable to provide any solutions, because they can't even completely define how their active conspiracy scenarios were implemented.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   13:04:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#211. To: wudidiz, HOUNDDAWG, (#208) (Edited)

So, the wings and engines must have been traveling at such incredible folding speeds that the high tensile-multiple alloy engines were literally flattened and liquified on impact with each other inside the plane, and the two large pieces of the now sheared shell followed the same trajectory into the building, all because the main wing struts were able to bend like soft rubber to tangential angles without the wings shearing off the way they do when commercial jets hit trees and all other "steel reinforced hardened concrete bomb proof military headquarters". lol

pwned

pwned yourself.

Now go to your next move, k00ksite denial of facts, claiming the parts weren't of a 757 engine but they can't specify with any certainty what they are from, because that would require supportable evidence of their own, and their denials have been debunked hundreds of times too.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-01   13:10:51 ET  (2 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#212. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, Turtle, *4um PSY-OP Club* (#0)

WikiLeaks Reveals Elvis Was Seen at Downtown Mall - Despite CIA Claims They Were Clueless



wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-01   13:20:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#213. To: AGAviator (#211)

What is that supposed to be?



wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-01   13:23:36 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#214. To: HOUNDDAWG (#204) (Edited)

Well, you see, the wings struck the steel reinforced concrete along their leading edges close to the fuselage and then they immediately folded up and into the fuselage, similar to the way fighter wings fold before being lowered below deck on carriers.

I don't think you can do that with a 757. It's not even elegant using an A-6 Skyraider.

"The people in power will not disappear voluntarily, giving flowers to the cops just isn't going to work. This thinking is fostered by the establishment; they like nothing better than love and nonviolence. The only way I like to see cops given flowers is in a flower pot from a high window.” - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2010-08-02   20:04:05 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#215. To: AGAviator, wudidiz, scrapper2, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, abraxas, Dakmar, James Deffenbach (#211)

You neglected to mention that the second photo was a picture that was released as an exhibit during the Zacarias Moussaoui terrorist trial in 2006 and never seen by any honest observers before that date. And, this by the same govt that is so Hell bent on "stage managing all evidence" that they threatened to prosecute those who secured a piece of evidence from TWA Flight 800 to test it for missile fuel residue. Is this the act of a govt that seeks "sunlight, the best disinfectant"?

No, you cannot sell your crock 'o shit here because we ain't on the payroll and we ain't part of the secret homosexual pedophile cabal that is the US Government.

And, between your endless fellatio-of-govt-by-proxy sessions do you ever take a breath and ask, "If a picture is worth a thousand words then why are all of the surveillance videos of that day under lock and key?" Simply put, if that doesn't arouse your suspicions and result in forceful demands for justice then you will never have any credibility with honest, patriotic Americans who are capable of adult reasoning and who want the truth.

Perhaps you should continue to haunt places where like minded cowards on the govt payroll will agree with any "official findings", (i.e. "Oswald was the lone gunman 'cause the Warren Commission said so") that won't jeopardize the stolen or extorted tax dollars that buy the loyalty of the likes of you)

And, what proof did the govt offer other than "You can believe us 'cause we wouldn't lie about sumthin' like that!" that this was photographed at the Pentagon?

Your intentional omission of the source of the photo is proof that you're aware of the absurdity of offering the govt's word to "prove" that the govt (or Satan, or Jay Pollard or FBI spy Robert Hanssen) isn't lying. The only other possibility is that you really are that fucking dumb, in which case you'd believe your own wife's testimony against you in divorce court: "Well, the little woman has testified and if she said it then it must be true so, there's no need for me to testify, Your Honor!"

pwned indeed.

And while we're on the subject of Zacarias Moussaoui; "According to the Associated Press, three jurors decided Moussaoui had only limited knowledge of the September 11 plot, and three described his role in the attacks as minor, if he had any role at all."

It's a real bitch when carefully selected jurors don't follow the script the way govt profilers and psychologists anticipate, isn't it? NO WONDER the govt insists of kangaroo military tribunals for selected civilians. That's how the govt guaranteed the conviction and hanging of Mary Surratt. (You didn't really believe that "the Warren Commission Report=case closed!" was the earliest "precedent of corruption" in use by our govt, did you?)

And, speaking of you, You really are a criminal co-conspirator after the fact, aren't you?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-03   2:27:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#216. To: Dakmar (#214)

I don't think you can do that with a 757. It's not even elegant using an A-6 Skyraider.

That's right.

Actually, my post would have been better served by using the example of a bird's wings folding neatly along side the critter's "fuselage", but, hopefully the folks whose opinions we value got the picture.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-03   2:36:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#217. To: HOUNDDAWG, AGAviator (#215)

And, between your endless fellatio-of-govt-by-proxy sessions do you ever take a breath and ask, "If a picture is worth a thousand words then why are all of the surveillance videos of that day under lock and key?" Simply put, if that doesn't arouse your suspicions and result in forceful demands for justice then you will never have any credibility with honest, patriotic Americans who are capable of adult reasoning and who want the truth.

yeah, what about that, Aviator?

christine  posted on  2010-08-03   2:38:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#218. To: HOUNDDAWG, *9-11*, *Post Of The Day* (#215)

Your intentional omission of the source of the photo is proof that you're aware of the absurdity of offering the govt's word to "prove" that the govt (or Satan, or Jay Pollard or FBI spy Robert Hanssen) isn't lying. The only other possibility is that you really are that fucking dumb, in which case you'd believe your own wife's testimony against you in divorce court: "Well, the little woman has testified and if she said it then it must be true so, there's no need for me to testify, Your Honor!"

pwned indeed.

lmao

yeah that.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-03   2:42:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#219. To: wudidiz, AGAviator, scrapper2, FormerLurker, Original_Intent, christine, abraxas, Dakmar, James Deffenbach, all (#218)

I'm sure that Ass Grabber is consulting with the highest authority in this matter and his response will be forthcoming immediately..... Photobucket

"You already used 'pwned'? Okay, call him a 'Nazi' next...."

"As you wish, Rabbi...."

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2010-08-03   2:50:26 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#220. To: HOUNDDAWG (#215)

And, speaking of you, You really are a criminal co-conspirator after the fact, aren't you?

That had to have left a mark.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   12:05:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#221. To: christine, buckeroo, turtle (#217) (Edited)

And, between your endless fellatio-of-govt-by-proxy sessions

"If a picture is worth a thousand words then why are all of the surveillance videos of that day under lock and key?"

yeah, what about that, Aviator?

What about what?

The par-for-the-course fellatio reference?

Or the fact that criminal investigation results are not released in their entirety to the general public without a Freeedom of Information request obtained through the court system?

Any credibility with honest, patriotic Americans who are capable of adult reasoning and who want the truth.

Honest patriotic Americans will want to concern themselves with actions they can take in this moment, that will change what is happening here and now.

People who after 8 1/2 years still cannot come up with any coherent and detailed results of how exactly the USG engineered their conspiracies, while engaging in unceasing attacks against people who don't accept their vague claims, are neither patriotic nor adults.

Instead they waste time, as Noah Chomsky explicity states in my sig line, in diverting what could be useful change into esoteric whodunits that will never get resolved.

Which again as Chomsky explicitly states, is why the whodunit purveyors are not pursued by the Establishment, which recognizes them as harmless, irrelevant and even useful in allowing the USG to stay its course with a confused and fragmented opposition.

For example, right now the US needs to choose what it will do in Afghanistan. Does it leave entirely? What about the people it has cultivated there, do they get refuge in the US or do they just get left to die. What about Pakistan, what about border controls? Or Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, and Somalia.

You people have zero solutions to current issues. Zero.

None of you has any answers to these real-life issues because you'd rather spend your time in something which has no solutions and will never be solved.

Well, life goes on, and even if you don't want to deal with reality, the majority of the population can and will do so.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   12:55:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#222. To: AGAviator, christine, HOUNDDAWG, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, all (#221)

why are all of the surveillance videos of that day under lock and key?

That was the question.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-03   13:00:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#223. To: HOUNDDAWG, buckeroo (#215)

You neglected to mention that the second photo was a picture that was released as an exhibit during the Zacarias Moussaoui terrorist trial in 2006 and never seen by any honest observers before that date.

Well imagine that.

A criminal prosecution that doesn't issue general public press releases of all the evidence it has prior to the trial.

So

(1) As not to tip off the defense prior to pretrial discovery and conferences, and
(2) The defense in a trial cannot claim the trial was prejudiced by publicity of evidence before the jury was selected and seated.

Not only are you ignorant of aviation and construction engineering, you are incapable of even understanding basic concepts of American jurisprudence.

And, speaking of you, You really are a criminal co-conspirator after the fact, aren't you?

No, you're a false front operator agent provocateur attempting without much success to steer the general public into unproductive and unsolvable scenarios that distract from ongoing here and now issues.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:03:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#224. To: wudidiz, buckeroo (#222)

That was the question.

Already answered.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:03:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: AGAviator (#221)

People who after 8 1/2 years still cannot come up with any coherent and detailed results of how exactly the USG engineered their conspiracies, while engaging in unceasing attacks against people who don't accept their vague claims, are neither patriotic nor adults.

It's sort of difficult to get those involved to allow investigations to go forward, or get them to admit they were in fact involved.

However, we can see how the official story is NOT true, and go from there, calling for a new independent investigation. If enough people wake up, it MIGHT happen. It will not happen if people such as you are successful in convincing the people that they should "move on", and have them forget that what happened that day is the reason the people of this nation lost their freedoms, and this country embarked on wars of adventure and conquest without even being attacked or threatened by those countries.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   13:05:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#226. To: AGAviator, christine, HOUNDDAWG, Original_Intent, FormerLurker, all (#224)

Already answered.

Here is your answer:

"Or the fact that criminal investigation results are not released in their entirety to the general public without a Freeedom of Information request obtained through the court system?"

Your answer is incorrect.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-03   13:07:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#227. To: FormerLurker, AGAviator (#225)

There's no statute of limitations on murder.

Those guilty and complicit would rather the issue be swept under the carpet.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-03   13:09:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#225)

However, we can see how the official story is NOT true, and go from there, calling for a new independent investigation.

Yeah right.

Reconstructing 9+ year old events taking what, another couple years, with thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars going down the toilet already, and nothing being done to stop any hemorrhaging here and now.

You can play in your little sandboxes. Just don't expect too much company.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:11:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#229. To: wudidiz (#227)

There's no statute of limitations on murder.

There is when the suspects die of old age while the nut cases cannot even name the suspects or their evidence, and dither around hurling insults and epithets instead of doing a bona fide investigation that will stand on its own two feet instead of being based on arm-waving nit picking of existing investigations.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:13:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#230. To: AGAviator, HOUNDDAWG, wudidiz, buckeroo (#223)

A criminal prosecution that doesn't issue general public press releases of all the evidence it has prior to the trial.

Videos of a historical event which affected the very soul of this nation aren't simply "evidence", they are historical records. As such, being that the events of that day are still used as the rationale for draconian measures such as the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act, those videos MUST be made public.

They are not being held in a vault in order to convict bin Laden or anyone else. Such evidence would only confirm the official story, or destroy it.

If that story were true, all of the people involved with the Flight 77 hijacking are now dead.

IF those tapes did show anything supporting the government story of what happened, it's pretty much a certainty they would have had those videos up on network news the evening of 9/11/2001. More than likely, not only do they not confirm the official story, but expose what really DID happen.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   13:16:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#231. To: AGAviator, buckeroo, turtle, ALL (#228)

Reconstructing 9+ year old events taking what, another couple years, with thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars going down the toilet already, and nothing being done to stop any hemorrhaging here and now.

Ideally, this is what would happen;

A) A new investigation finds complicity at the highest levels of government, past and present.
B) Congress authorizes a special law enforcement unit, similar to the FBI, but with the authority to arrest any government official involved, with the power to hold them till their trials.
C) Congress withdraws troops from Iraq and Afghanistan immediately.
D) Any foreign official or private individual involved be extradited to this country.
E) Any foreign government involved be seen as an enemy to this nation, and war be declared against them.
F) Private individuals in this country who are involved be arrested and held till their trials.
G) All secret and not so secret "terror" prisons be immediately shutdown, except for Gitmo perhaps, where the REAL terrorists who planned and executed these attacks be held till their trials.

Now will any of that happen? Probably not, but if it doesn't, the REAL perpetrators of 9/11 aren't only still roaming free, but are possibly planning future attacks as we speak, and those attacks might be MUCH worse than what occured on 9/11/2001.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   13:27:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#232. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo (#230)

If that story were true, all of the people involved with the Flight 77 hijacking are now dead.

Absolutely and totally wrong.

Buck already posted to you a list of people who have already pleaded guilty and received jail sentences for assisting Hanjour get false identification so as to carry out his hijacking of Flight 77..

There are numerous people who aided and abetted Hanjour's and other Arabs hijacking, without knowing the extent of their plots.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:31:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#233. To: AGAviator (#232)

Absolutely and totally wrong.

Buck already posted to you a list of people who have already pleaded guilty and received jail sentences for assisting Hanjour get false identification so as to carry out his hijacking of Flight 77..

So why didn't they pull out the tapes for those trials? You know why? It's more than likely because they'd prove those people had nothing to do with the Pentagon attack.

As far as the fake ID, I'm surprised you're willing to admit that whoever was claiming to be Hani Hanjour more than likely wasn't. The differences in the facial features between the Dulles Airport video and the other images of Hanjour are significant, proving they are two different people.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   13:35:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#234. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#231)

Reconstructing 9+ year old events taking what, another couple years, with thousands of lives, and trillions of dollars going down the toilet already, and nothing being done to stop any hemorrhaging here and now.

Ideally, this is what would happen

And exactly how many posts have the lot of you made - any where any time - regarding those specific solutions, compared to your endless "paid government shill," and when you really get debunked, "butt buddy" comments.

You've got quite a few thousand pointless comments to catch up on before anybody not already in your clique will even begin to listen, let alone be persuaded.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:38:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: FormerLurker (#233)

The differences in the facial features between the Dulles Airport video and the other images of Hanjour are significant, proving they are two different people.

No they aren't two different people. Run your claims by someone who identifies people professionally, not amateur photo doctors.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   13:40:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#236. To: AGAviator, HOUNDDAWG, wudidiz, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Eric Stratton, HAPPY2BEME4UM, christine, Dakmar, all (#223) (Edited)

You neglected to mention that the second photo was a picture that was released as an exhibit during the Zacarias Moussaoui terrorist trial in 2006 and never seen by any honest observers before that date.

Well imagine that.

A criminal prosecution that doesn't issue general public press releases of all the evidence it has prior to the trial.

So

(1) As not to tip off the defense prior to pretrial discovery and conferences, and (2) The defense in a trial cannot claim the trial was prejudiced by publicity of evidence before the jury was selected and seated.

That can be characterized in one common colloquialism.

HORSESHIT!

It doesn't cut it. There were a multiplicity of photographs of the site published in an attempt to convince the Sheeple that the government fairy tale was really for really true. Withholding that one photograph for trial is simply nonsense and you are attempting to explain it, it's questionable provenance, and convenient arrival away. Just as you try to explain away every other bit of evidence contrary to the "Official Fairy Tale™".

And so what is your excuse for, 9 YEARS AFTER THE FACT, the 32 surveillance videos from surrounding sites seized the very afternoon of 911 by the FBI without a warrant, still being kept buried under layers of deep secrecy(and how did they know where EVERY ONE was so quickly? Advance planning?). Under what rationale are the 32 illegally seized videos still being withheld NINE YEARS AFTER THE EVENT? Because they might be needed in a court case? I wonder who the defendants would be if those videos were allowed to see the light of day?

WHY?

Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

In a related vein:

Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the Air Traffic Controllers still held under a gag order?

Because they do not corroborate the "Official Fairy Tale™"?

I don't pretend to know the answer. However, I do know with utter cold certainty that if those videos did support the "Official Fairy Tale™" that they would have been splashed repeatedly across every television screen in the nation. I also have noted your repeated attempts to avoid addressing these key and central questions.

My patience with your repeated lying, spinning, and attempts to offer preposterous excuses for data standing in direct contradiction of the "Official Conspiracy Theory™©®" is long since exhausted. It is become quite clear that you are operating from an agenda, and that agenda is other than the truth. If you really are a citizen of this nation, which I question given that Israeli Intelligence runs the kind of disinformation operation you are part of as well, you are a quisling, guilty of high treason, and if military standing in direct defiance and discredit to your given oath.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   13:42:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#237. To: Original_Intent (#236)

Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

They were all returned (untouched or edited) after official government analysis. You are using eight year old gossip/rumour/BS/hacked crap as a matter of fact.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   13:47:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#238. To: buckeroo, wudidiz, HOUNDDAWG, FormerLurker, christine, all (#237)

Horseshit. Your citation of proof is? The videos have NEVER been returned and FOIA requests for them have been turned down citing that wonderful catch all to bury inconvenient evidence "national security". Please explain why evidence which could prove or disprove the "Official Conspiracy Theory™" is still being held deeply buried NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT? What interest of "national security" is served? Proof that 911 was an inside job conducted with malice aforethought by elements within our own government and military apparatus? I'm sure that those responsible would consider it a security matter as firm proof of complicity guarantees them their own personalized piece of rope.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   14:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: Original_Intent (#238)

Your citation of proof is?

Sorry charlie... you made the original claim:

Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

Prove your allegation. But, of course, we shall see no FACTS, no EVIDENCE, no WITNESSES ... just gossip/rumour and your attempt at eloquent and continuous polysyllabic ramblings.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   14:10:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#240. To: buckeroo, all (#237)

They were all returned (untouched or edited) after official government analysis

BOVINE EXCREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-08-03   14:10:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#241. To: buckeroo (#239)

Prove your allegation

Prove yours. Show us the tapes.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-08-03   14:11:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#242. To: buckeroo (#239)

Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

Horseshit. You asserted that ALL of the videos have been released.

PROVE IT.

It has not occurred and you were L-Y-I-N-G when you said they had.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   14:19:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#243. To: HOUNDDAWG (#215)

No, you cannot sell your crock 'o shit here because we ain't on the payroll and we ain't part of the secret homosexual pedophile cabal that is the US Government.

You smote Aggravator a terrible blow, Dawg. That was great.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   14:36:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#244. To: HOUNDDAWG (#219)

I'm sure that Ass Grabber is consulting with the highest authority in this matter

Who would that be praytell? Buck of the loose screw perhaps?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   14:37:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#245. To: Original_Intent (#242)

Horseshit. You asserted that ALL of the videos have been released.

That isn't true at all. I actually indicated that ALL material by private or individual witnesses that was reviewed by official government bodies was released both untouched and unedited.

But again, you are playing dumb (as is typical) ... YOU made the allegation:

Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

Prove the assertion.... other than some website that has not updated any of its data for eight years.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   14:38:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#246. To: Original_Intent, HOUNDDAWG (#220)

HOUNDDAWG: And, speaking of you, You really are a criminal co-conspirator after the fact, aren't you?

O_I: That had to have left a mark.

It would have left terrible marks if he was sentient. Fortunately for him that isn't the case.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   14:39:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#247. To: Original_Intent (#242)

Horseshit. You asserted that ALL of the videos have been released.

PROVE IT.

It has not occurred and you were L-Y-I-N-G when you said they had.

You don't think it bothers him to lie, do you?

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   14:54:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#248. To: Original_Intent (#236)

deleted

The relationship between morality and liberty is a directly proportional one.

Eric Stratton  posted on  2010-08-03   16:17:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#249. To: FormerLurker, buckeroo, turtle (#233)

So why didn't they pull out the tapes for those trials? You know why? It's more than likely because they'd prove those people had nothing to do with the Pentagon attack.

Feel free to tell that to the dozen plus defense attorneys who took guilty pleas intead of more serious charges like being accomplices to mass murders.

Or if you don't trust the defense attorneys, go to pro bono legal groups defending "innocent" people from miscarriages of justice.

I guarantee you nobody will come near these cases because they have convincing evidence admitted by the defendants that they did in fact aid and abet hijackers with violating US immigration laws, albeit without knowing the ultimate purpose of what the pilot trainee/hijackers wanted to do which was murder thousands of Americans at the instigation of Osama Bin Laden.

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One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   16:24:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#250. To: AGAviator (#249)

I guarantee you nobody will come near these cases because they have convincing evidence admitted by the defendants that they did in fact aid and abet hijackers with violating US immigration laws, albeit without knowing the ultimate purpose of what the pilot trainee/hijackers wanted to do which was murder thousands of Americans at the instigation of Osama Bin Laden.

Maybe they should called a Mexican lawyer, I hear they do pretty well in getting their clients off the hook.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   16:26:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#251. To: AGAviator (#249)

Anyways, where are those videos?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2010-08-03   16:26:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: Original_Intent, buckeroo (#236) (Edited)

That can be characterized in one common colloquialism.

HORSESHIT!

8 Traits of the Disinformationalist

(1) Avoidance. They never actually discuss issues head-on or provide constructive input, generally avoiding citation of references or credentials. Rather, they merely imply this, that, and the other.

Virtually everything about their presentation implies their authority and expert knowledge in the matter without any further justification for credibility.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   16:29:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#253. To: FormerLurker, buckerooo (#251)

Anyways, where are those videos?

Well, they're not on this website, and they're not on my PC.

So if they're important to you, go find them by some other method than addressing your missives to me.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   16:31:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#254. To: buckeroo (#245)

secrecy?

Prove the assertion.... other than some website that has not updated any of its data for eight years.

Ta-ha!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   16:41:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#255. To: abraxas, Buckmonster Fullofit, wuddiz, HOUNDDAWG, FormerLurker, IRTorqued, Dakmar, Critter, christine, AGBloviator, all (#240)

They were all returned (untouched or edited) after official government analysis

BOVINE EXCREMENT!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is a good summary: The Suppression of Video Footage of the Pentagon Attack

Here is the text of the article:

The Suppression of Video Footage of the Pentagon Attack

It is striking that there is neither video footage nor any photographic evidence in the public domain showing a jetliner approaching or crashing into the Pentagon. As of May, 2006, the only video footage of the crash that has been released are clips from two Pentagon security cameras north of the crash site, one the source of 5 frames leaked in 2002.

With the release of the two video clips, the Pentagon claims to have supplied all of the footage it has of the attack. Although the number and positions of security cameras monitoring the Pentagon is not public knowledge, it seems unlikely that only two security cameras captured the attack. Isn't it reasonable to assume that there were dozens, if not hundreds, of security cameras ringing the huge building that is the heart of the United States military establishment? Videos Outside the Pentagon Seized The Sheraton National Hotel may be the hotel from which the FBI seized a CCTV recording.

Not only has the government refused to release footage that would clearly show how the Pentagon was attacked, it has also seized footage not belonging to the military. The FBI confiscated video recordings from several private businesses near the Pentagon in the immediate aftermath of the attack. Those recordings, if they still exist, might provide decisive evidence about the attack.

* The FBI visited a hotel near the Pentagon to confiscate film from a security camera which some hotel employees had been watching in horror shortly after the attack. The FBI denied that the footage captured the attack. 1 * The FBI visited the Citgo gas station southwest of the Pentagon within minutes of the attack to confiscate film that may have captured the attack. According to Jose Velasquez, who was working at the gas station at the time of the attack, the station's security cameras would have captured the attack. 2

The NEXCOMM/CITGO gas station is just under the flightpath of the aircraft involved in the Pentagon attack.

In addition it is likely there is other video footage that was either destroyed or is being withheld, given that the trajectory of the attack plane took it low over a large part of Arlington, Virginia. Lawsuits to Obtain Videos

At least two plaintiffs have attempted to obtain videos seized by the FBI, using the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). The first, documented at Flight77.info, began with a request to the FBI in October of 2004. The second, undertaken by the Judicial Watch, Inc. began with a request to the Department of Defense (DOD) in December of 2004. Following is a timeline of the requests and subsequent lawsuits. Entries relating to the second case are distinguished with dates colored gray.

* October 14, 2004: Scott A. Hodes, on behalf of his client Scott Bingham, sends a request to David Hardy of the FBI requesting any videos "that may have captured the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001". The request letter mentions videotapes from the Citgo Gas Station and the Sheraton National Hotel.
* November 3, 2004: The FBI replies to Bingham's request stating that their search "revealed no record responsive to your FOIA request".
* November 17, 2004: Hodes files an appeal of Bingham's FOIA request with the U.S Department of Justice (DOJ), citing evidence that the videotapes mentioned in the original request exist.
* December 15, 2004: Christopher J. Farrell of Judicial Watch, Inc. writes to James Hogan in the Office of Freedom of Information/Security Review of the DOD requesting that the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS), DOD, and FBI produce:
any and all agency records concerning, relating to, or reflecting the following subjects:

(1) Video camera recordings obtained by federal official(s) and/or law enforcement from a Nexcomm/Citgo gas station in the vicinity of the Pentagon on or about September 11, 2001.

(2) Pentagon security video camera recording(s) showing Flight 77 strike and/or hit and/or crash into the Pentagon on September 11, 2001.

(3) Closed Circuit Television (CCTV) video camera recording(s) obtained by any federal official(s) and/or law enforcement from the Virginia Department of Transportation ("VDOT") and/or the VDOT "Smart Traffic Center" on or about September 11, 2001.

* March 7, 2005: The DOJ replies to Hodes' November 17 appeal, admitting that it did possess records responsive to the request but that it could release the records because such a release "could reasonably be expected to interfere with law enforcement proceedings." * January 26, 2005: The DOD advises Judicial Watch, Inc. that it possesses a videotape responsive to the December 15, 2004 request but declines to produce the videotape, citing U.S.C 552(b)(7)(A).
* March 8, 2005: Bingham's attorney files a lawsuit with the United States District Court for the District of Columbia stating that the FBI is in violation of the FOIA for "failing to adequately respond to plaintiff's FOIA request, including failing to adequately search for and release records that the plaintiff believes the agency is in possession of, and for failing to timely respond to the plaintiff's administrative appeal."
* April 18, 2005: The DOJ files a response to Bingham's March 8 lawsuit denying the plaintiff's request and asking the judge to dismiss the plaintiff's Complaint with prejudice.
* April 19, 2005: District Judge Paul L. Friedman orders the defendants to file a motion to dismiss or a motion for summary judgment in the case brought by Bingham on or before June 21, 2005.
* June 10, 2005: The DOD denies Judicial Watch's administrative appeal, claiming that the video is exempt as part of an ongoing investigation involving Zacarias Moussaoui.
* August 1, 2005: Jeffrey D. Kahn, an attorney for the DOJ's Civil Division files a 23-page MEMORANDUM OF POINTS AND AUTHORITIES IN SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT. Scans of the document are posted on Flight77.info.
* August 29, 2005: Hodes files a Memorandum of Points and Authorities in Support of Plaintiff's Opposition to Defendants' Motion for Summary Judgment and a STATEMENT OF FACT ON WHICH THERE EXIST A GENUINE ISSUE TO BE LITIGATED in response to the DOJ's motion for summary judgment. * September 9, 2005: Kahn files a REPLY BRIEF IN FURTHER SUPPORT OF DEFENDANT'S MOTION FOR SUMMARY JUDGMENT
* September 9, 2005: Special Agent Jacqueline Maguire of the FBI's Counterterrorism Division files a DECLARATION describing her search for records responsive to Bingham's FOIA request. Maguire admits to determining that 85 videotapes in the FBI's possession are "potentially responsive" the request, that she personally viewed 29 of the tapes, and that she located only one videotape that showed the impact of Flight 77 into the Pentagon. Maguire also refers to "one videotape taken from a closed circuit television at a Doubletree Hotel in Arlington Virginia," but states that it did not show the impact of Flight 77.
* September 26, 2005: Hodes files a request seeking "copies of 85 videotapes in the possession of the FBI described in the declaration of Special Agent Jacqueline Maguire dated September 7, 2005.
* October 20, 2005: The DOJ sends a letter to Hodes claiming that the requested material is exempt.
* October 24, 2005: Hodes appeals the DOJ's October 20 claim that its material is exempt.
* February 22, 2006: Judicial Watch, Inc. files a lawsuit in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia seeking declaratory and injunctive relief against the Department of Defense for its refusal to disclose records sought under the FOIA request.
* May 5, 2006: Judge Friedman orders the defendants to show cause on or before May 26, 2006 why their motion for summary judgment should not be denied as moot, noting that the criminal proceedings against Moussaoui have ended.
* May 16, 2006: Judicial Watch obtains two videos from the DOD, and posts them on their website. The site is down for about half of the day due to demand. * September 15, 2006: Judicial Watch announces the release of video from CITGO gas station. 3 The video consists mostly of views of the interior of the gas station and does not appear to capture the attack.
* December 2, 2006: Judicial Watch obtains a video recording from the Doubletree Hotel in Arlington. The video, which does not include a view of the Pentagon's facade, shows an explosion but does not capture an approaching jetliner. 4

References

1. Inside the Ring, The Gertz Files, 9/21/01 [cached]
2. Three Months On, Tension Lingers Near the Pentagon, Richmond Times-Dispatch, 12/11/01 [cached]
3. CITGO Gas Station Cameras Near Pentagon Evidently Did Not Capture Attack, JudicialWatch.org, 9/15/06 [cached]
4. Hotel security video shows 9/11 Pentagon blast, but no plane, CNN.com, 12/2/06 [cached]

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   17:15:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#256. To: FormerLurker, AGBloviator, AGAviator, all (#251)

I am greatly amused. Bloviator is now trying to use Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation as a tool to "catapult the propaganda".

Of course he misapplies them and is attempting to use them to misrepresent anything which points out how he is dissembling, avoiding issues, and various other points of disinformation technique as being disinformation.

So, I guess one way to dispel the fog he is trying to create is to turn on a fan for him.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   17:21:37 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#257. To: OInk, buckeroo, turtle (#256)

Of course he misapplies them and is attempting to use them to misrepresent anything which points out how he is dissembling, avoiding issues, and various other points of

Like what, blowhard?

"It is the job of a disinfo artist to interfere with these evaluations... to at least make people think the links are weak or broken when, in truth, they are not... or to propose alternative solutions leading away from the truth. Often, by simply impeding and slowing down the process through disinformation tactics, a level of victory is assured because apathy increases with time and rhetoric."

For such disinformationalists, the overall aim is to avoid discussing links in the chain of evidence which cannot be broken by truth, but at all times, to use clever deceptions or lies to make select links seem weaker than they are, create the illusion of a break, or better still, cause any who are considering the chain to be distracted in any number of ways, including the method of questioning the credentials of the presenter.

Please understand that fact is fact, regardless of the source. Likewise, truth is truth, regardless of the source. This is why criminals are allowed to testify against other criminals.

Where a motive to lie may truly exist, only actual evidence that the testimony itself IS a lie renders it completely invalid. Were a known 'liar's' testimony to stand on its own without supporting fact, it might certainly be of questionable value, but if the testimony (argument) is based on verifiable or otherwise demonstrable facts, it matters not who does the presenting or what their motives are, or if they have lied in the past or even if motivated to lie in this instance -- the facts or links would and should stand or fall on their own merit and their part in the matter will merely be supportive.

Moreover, particularly with respects to public forums such as newspaper letters to the editor, and Internet chat and news groups, the disinfo type has a very important role. In these forums, the principle topics of discussion are generally attempts by individuals to cause other persons to become interested in their own particular position, idea, or solution -- very much in development at the time.

People often use such mediums as a sounding board and in hopes of pollination to better form their ideas.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   18:37:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#258. To: AGAviator (#257)

Did you see O_I's references in post @255? They suck... he even went so far as to MAKE a thread out of proud post..... ROTFL

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   18:41:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#259. To: buckeroo (#258) (Edited)

Did you see O_I's references in post @255? They suck... he even went so far as to MAKE a thread out of proud post..... ROTFL

It is striking that there is neither video footage nor any photographic evidence in the public domain showing a jetliner approaching or crashing into the Pentagon. As of May, 2006, the only video footage of the crash that has been released are clips from two Pentagon security cameras north of the crash site, one the source of 5 frames leaked in 2002.

Like the eyewitness testimony of 136 people who observed the 757 airplane crash into the building isn't adequate for them. They want perfect videos from a few frame per second cameras, recording all the details of a 757 traveling at 530 MPH near the ground with perfect clarity.

Then, if such videos did exist, they would say they had been fabricated...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the major consequences of the 9/11 movement has been to draw enormous amounts of energy and effort away from activism directed to real and ongoing crimes of state, and their institutional background, crimes that are far more serious than blowing up the WTC would be, if there were any credibility to that thesis. That is, I suspect, why the 9/11 movement is treated far more tolerantly by centers of power than is the norm for serious critical and activist work....Noam Chomsky

AGAviator  posted on  2010-08-03   18:54:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#260. To: AGAviator (#259)

They want perfect videos from a few frame per second cameras, recording all the details of a 757 traveling at 530 MPH near the ground with perfect clarity.

Isn't it hillarious? They [twoofers] want a HOLLYWOOD MOVIE capturing a pile of illegal terrorists slamming a jet into a government building, with actors, directors and PERFECT SHOTS.

I find it amusing.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   19:05:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#261. To: James Deffenbach, HOUNDDAWG (#243)

You smote Aggravator a terrible blow, Dawg. That was great.

What are you guys smotin'? : )

Ab wants to smote with you.

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-08-03   19:05:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#262. To: abraxas, James Deffenbach, HOUNDDAWG (#261)

You smote Aggravator a terrible blow, Dawg. That was great.

What are you guys smotin'? : )

Ab wants to smote with you.

snickering


"Every Person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.
Senator Jacob Howard, Co-author of the citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment, 1866.

farmfriend  posted on  2010-08-03   19:11:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#263. To: farmfriend (#262)

You want to smote too? : )

"The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. ... We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of." Edward Bernays, Father of Public Relations

abraxas  posted on  2010-08-03   19:18:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#264. To: abraxas (#261)

What are you guys smotin'? : )

Ab wants to smote with you.

Well, DAWG was smotin' aggravator and buck and I was just complimenting him on a fine job. And you are welcome to smote them too, they deserve it.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   19:19:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#265. To: abraxas, farmfriend (#263)

Yes, farmfriend can join in on the smotin'. Everyone is welcome.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   19:20:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#266. To: Original_Intent, AGAviator (#256)

Bloviator is now trying to use Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation as a tool to "catapult the propaganda".

How does it feel (assuming you have any feelings) when someone throws back your same monotonous crap in your face based on fairness and applied factual rebuttal?

Cat got your tongue, lad?

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   19:24:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#267. To: buckeroo, Buckmonster Fullofit, AGBloviator, Former Lurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, IRTorqued, wudidiz, all (#266)

I take it you find logic monotonous?

I know exactly what Bloviator is doing, as usual he is taking something and twisting it. I suspect he got tired of getting called on his logical fallacies and disinformation techniques. So, now he "thinks" he is going to twist it around and pervert valid logical points to his disinformation attacks.

Ain't gonna work.

A. He can't make me mad.

B. He can't out think me.

C. The truth is on my side so all he can do is the usual: Warp, pervert, twist, and misrepresent. In the end it is a very limited repetoire.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   20:13:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#268. To: Original_Intent (#267)

I take it you find logic monotonous?

Logic? Your definition of monotonous, cantankerous BS is called "LOGIC?"

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   20:24:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#269. To: buckeroo, Buckmonster Fullofit, AGBloviator, Former Lurker, James Deffenbach, abraxas, christine, HOUNDDAWG, IRTorqued, wudidiz, all (#258) (Edited)

Did you see O_I's references in post @255? They suck... he even went so far as to MAKE a thread out of proud post..... ROTFL

Pretty much as I expected.

You do not refute the reference you make a personal attack - Argumentum Ad Hominem and apply Rule number 9 of the Twenty-Five Ways To Suppress Truth: The Rules of Disinformation.

9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.

So, other than a stupid generalization to avoid addressing the point you sidestep it with crudity, insults, and a refusal to acknowledge the well documented evidences provided. At no point did you refute any element of the article, you merely engaged in disinformation ploys to AVOID having to address it.

Now returning to your earlier false assertion:

My question was (#236): Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos (from 32 separate locations surrounding the Pentagon the afternoon of 911) being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

Your response was (237):

They were all returned (untouched or edited) after official government analysis. You are using eight year old gossip/rumour/BS/hacked crap as a matter of fact.

Which is now shown to be FALSE. In other words you were L-Y-I-N-G when you said they had.

Unlike your attempts to put words in my mouth I have quoted your exact words. The article posted in Post #255 stands as a direct refutation of your L-I-E.

You now stand branded by your own words as a L-I-A-R.

There can be no doubt and as it is demonstrated by the evidence in this thread it is quite clear that you are a L-I-A-R.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   20:37:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#270. To: Original_Intent (#269)

A liar and he's not just playing dumb either, that's not an act.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   20:40:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#271. To: James Deffenbach (#270)

One of the things I find most interesting about disinfo people is their general stupidity. Generally speaking they conduct no original thought - it is all cut and paste or the same set of disinformation gambits, such as playing dumb, over and over and over and over again. No originality, no wit, just all spin all the time.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   21:18:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#272. To: Original_Intent (#271)

But maybe we should cut him some slack. He MAY be inventing a new kernel for an operating system that will make Bill Gates really take notice. He will probably out-Linux Linus Torvalds. Or maybe not.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-03   21:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#273. To: James Deffenbach (#272)

I'd like to cut him some slack - and then see it draped over a stout branch on the Village Oak.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-03   21:31:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#274. To: Original_Intent (#269)

My question was (#236): Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos (from 32 separate locations surrounding the Pentagon the afternoon of 911) being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

There aren't any.... PROVE your perspective and issue with contemporary data... AND STOP USING NINE YEAR LINKS.

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-03   22:17:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#275. To: Original_Intent (#267)

I take it you find logic monotonous?

I know exactly what Bloviator is doing, as usual he is taking something and twisting it. I suspect he got tired of getting called on his logical fallacies and disinformation techniques. So, now he "thinks" he is going to twist it around and pervert valid logical points to his disinformation attacks.

Ain't gonna work.

A. He can't make me mad.

B. He can't out think me.

C. The truth is on my side so all he can do is the usual: Warp, pervert, twist, and misrepresent. In the end it is a very limited repetoire.

True dat.


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-04   1:29:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#276. To: James Deffenbach, Original_Intent, buckeroo, all (#270)

A liar and he's not just playing dumb either, that's not an act.

Unless he's just a really good actor...


I ran out of smart sounding quotes

wudidiz  posted on  2010-08-04   1:29:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#277. To: buckeroo (#274)

My question was (#236): Why NINE YEARS AFTER THE FACT are the illegally seized videos (from 32 separate locations surrounding the Pentagon the afternoon of 911) being kept buried behind a wall of secrecy?

There aren't any.... PROVE your perspective and issue with contemporary data... AND STOP USING NINE YEAR LINKS.

And what specific factual item, other than your diversionary whining, are you refuting.

The point is THAT AFTER 9 YEARS THE GOVERNMENT IS STILL SUPPRESSING EVIDENCE, AND FORBIDDING THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW ON THEIR RADAR SCOPES.

That is a very curious item.

You are simply trying to generate smoke. Please don't pee on my leg and try to tell me its raining. It ain't gonna' wash.

What you are doing is nothing more that attempting to divert from, and obscure, the factual point THAT AFTER 9 YEARS THE GOVERNMENT IS STILL SUPPRESSING EVIDENCE, AND FORBIDDING THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW ON THEIR RADAR SCOPES.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-04   1:36:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#278. To: Original_Intent (#277)

The point is THAT AFTER 9 YEARS THE GOVERNMENT IS STILL SUPPRESSING EVIDENCE, AND FORBIDDING THE AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLERS TO SPEAK ABOUT WHAT THEY SAW ON THEIR RADAR SCOPES.

Proof? Naw ... I knew it... it is easier to use outdated BS to substantiate your perspective.

No links? C'mon....... who are you foolin' here... or are you stroking someone in the background? Hmmm..

"we ought to lay off the criticism" -- Pinguinite, circa 2010-05-26 22:17:22 ET

buckeroo  posted on  2010-08-04   1:45:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#279. To: buckeroo (#278)

You made the assertion that the data is all available.

So obviously you have seen it. Right?

Therefore you can provide a link to it. Right?

I didn't think so.

"One of the least understood strategies of the world revolution now moving rapidly toward its goal is the use of mind control as a major means of obtaining the consent of the people who will be subjects of the New World Order." K.M. Heaton, The National Educator

Original_Intent  posted on  2010-08-04   2:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#280. To: Original_Intent (#279)

Yes, isn't he always demanding others produce links for him? I think he should produce links to these videos that he claims were all returned. But I ain't gonna stand on one leg and hold my breath either.

Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton

He (Gordon Duff) also implies that forcibly removing Obama, a Constitution-hating, on-the-down-low, crackhead Communist, is an attack on America, Mom, and apple pie. I swear these military people are worse than useless. Just look around at the condition of the country and tell me if they have fulfilled their oaths to protect the nation from all enemies foreign and domestic.
OsamaBinGoldstein posted on 2010-05-25 9:39:59 ET (2 images) Reply Trace

James Deffenbach  posted on  2010-08-04   7:14:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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